Marquette has lost 4 in a row for the first time since Wojo's inaugural season. We're 3 games below .500 in conference play for the first time since this same week two years ago. What happened?
Experience
Last year, MU was led by 3 seniors (JaJuan Johnson, Katin Reinhardt, Luke Fischer) and a redshirt junior (Duane Wilson). Plus a junior in Andrew Rowsey. Not the most experienced team in college basketball, by any means. But a good core.
With the graduation of 3 seniors, and the transfers of Wilson and Haanif Cheatham, this team starts 4 sophomores, plays 3 freshmen off the bench, and has a grand total of 2 upper classmen (including our sole senior Rowsey). Right now we're seeing an inexperienced team.
Backcourt
Last season, the roster gave Wojo a lot of versatility at the 1, 2 and 3 spot. Markus, JJJ, Rowsey, Katin and Haanif all averaged 20+ minutes, with Duane just behind (16.4 mpg). Three of those players (JJJ, Duane and Haanif) were among our best defenders.
This year we're essentially a player short in the backcourt. Only 4 players average 20+ minutes (Markus, Rowsey, Sacar and Greg), with Jamal seeing more limited time (16.7 mpg). That gives Wojo fewer options to capitalize on matchups or make defensive substitutions. Plus, this backcourt is younger and less experienced.
Frontcourt
While Luke's defensive limitations were clear, he was still a very good shot blocker (Top 100 with a 7.2 Blk% last season). And he was nearly automatic when he got the ball inside, hitting an incredible 64.7% of his shots. That meant he often drew an extra defender, which opened up things for Markus, JJJ, Andrew, Katin, Sam, etc. Luke was also an elite offensive rebounder (48th in the country at 13.3%) and posted a career-high 16.3 DR%.
Harry Froling is an improvement on the defensive rebounding front (21.8 DR%) and he's a very good offensive rebounder (11.6 OR%). But the 3-headed monster of Harry, Theo and Matt doesn't yet measure up. Blocks are down, so is scoring. Without a consistent inside threat to worry about, opposing defenses can focus on stopping Markus, Andrew and Sam.
So what?
After somehow finding a way to get last year's schizophrenic team (Top 10 offense nationally, worst defensive team in the Big East) to the NCAA tournament, I don't question Wojo's coaching ability. That was a tremendous accomplishment in my book. Your results may vary.
I still believe he's building something here (despite the frustrations this season). Wojo is trying to raise the talent level, player by player, year by year. But bringing in the next Katin, year after year, to give us a one-year shot in the arm is a nearly impossible task. And transfers (Steve Taylor, Juan Anderson, Sandy Cohen, Traci Carter, Duane Wilson, Haanif Cheatham) have hurt the team's on-court performance in the short term.
But the goal is that the new players coming in will be even better in the long term. They just need time to gain experience and develop their skills.
Anybody who says Wojo can't develop players must not be watching the same team. Remember when Sam averaged 8.8 ppg? Oh yeah, that was less than a year ago. Or when Theo fouled out in his first 3 games? He hasn't fouled out in his last 16 games. Markus has cut down on turnovers, Greg's become more efficient on offense, etc.
I'm as impatient as anyone to see a return to MU basketball's glory days. There's no way around the fact that they past four losses have taken the air out of the season. That's no reason to give up on Wojo or the program.
MU traded Luke, Katin, JjJ, Duane, and Haanif for Harry, Theo, Sacar, Greg, and Jamal. A lot of experience, a lot of scoring, for a lot of youth and potential and more size.
I really admire your measured reasoning in this post.
What happened is we've played X and Nova 4 times.
Replace the 2nd Nova and X games with Depaul and St. Johns and we're probably 6-5, but we'd have 2 pretty much surefire losses still on the schedule.
Perspective is always important. But it doesn't make last weeks 2 losses any less painful.
Quote from: tower912 on February 05, 2018, 03:11:44 PM
MU traded Luke, Katin, JjJ, Duane, and Haanif for Harry, Theo, Sacar, Greg, and Jamal. A lot of experience, a lot of scoring, for a lot of youth and potential and more size.
I really admire your measured reasoning in this post.
That clearly isn't tolerated here.
#firewojo
A lot of good things here, but I don't think the development has been as strong as you suggest. Sams numbers were going to increase with a higher usage. He was so efficient as a Freshman, that I think he is on a good trajectory to being a Senior stud. Markus has cut down on the turnovers, but his scoring has been widely inconsistent, and his defense has arguably gotten worse. I know you can't teach size, but he should still be better than he is. Theo and Greg have improved greatly during the season with the game slowing down for them, but many were saying similar things about Sandy/Haanifs Freshman year. I have yet to see consistent year to year improvement by Wojo's players. I want Wojo to do well, and still think the tournament this year is doable, but player development has not been his forte.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 05, 2018, 03:21:41 PM
A lot of good things here, but I don't think the development has been as strong as you suggest. Sams numbers were going to increase with a higher usage.
Sam's stats have improved regardless of usage.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 05, 2018, 03:25:45 PM
Sam's stats have improved regardless of usage.
Sam's stats may have increased, but you have to look at all of Wojo's players.
2014 Class: Carlino wasn't around long enough for Wojo to have too much of an effect on him, we knew he was gonna be a chucker and he was. Sandy had a decent Freshman year but Wojo was never able to develop him into anything more than a Horizon League player.
2015 Class: Henry, see Carlino above. Haanif, good Freshman year, Wojo didn't develop him. Traci, good Freshman year, but wasn't able to develop, partly because Markus was taking his minutes, but still only a mid major player. Matt, never going to be anything more than we though he was, most of his improvement is on Todd Smith, not Wojo. Sacar, has shown flashes, but with the minutes he gets, you would expect a red shirt sophomore to average more than 6 points.
2016 Class: KR, see Carlino and Henry. Markus and Sam have improved, shows hope for the future, but two out of eight isn't anything to write home about
2017 Class: We cannot yet say how Wojo develops this class until he gets another full summer with them, but I would say that the development of this class will save/ cost Wojo his job. If they develop like Sandy and Haanif, then we will underachieve the next two years and Wojo will be gone. If they develop, He'll be fine. How will the be with another summer lifting and improving, IDk, but Wojo's track record has me nervous.
The only way that we would be experienced this year is if players didn't transfer. Duane and Haanif would have helped this team defensively, but our record would be at most 1-2 games better right now. Sandy and Traci would have no effect other than eating scholly's.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 05, 2018, 03:40:41 PM
Sam's stats may have increased, but you have to look at all of Wojo's players.
2014 Class: Carlino wasn't around long enough for Wojo to have too much of an effect on him, we knew he was gonna be a chucker and he was. Sandy had a decent Freshman year but Wojo was never able to develop him into anything more than a Horizon League player.
2015 Class: Henry, see Carlino above. Haanif, good Freshman year, Wojo didn't develop him. Traci, good Freshman year, but wasn't able to develop, partly because Markus was taking his minutes, but still only a mid major player. Matt, never going to be anything more than we though he was, most of his improvement is on Todd Smith, not Wojo. Sacar, has shown flashes, but with the minutes he gets, you would expect a red shirt sophomore to average more than 6 points.
2016 Class: KR, see Carlino and Henry. Markus and Sam have improved, shows hope for the future, but two out of eight isn't anything to write home about
2017 Class: We cannot yet say how Wojo develops this class until he gets another full summer with them, but I would say that the development of this class will save/ cost Wojo his job. If they develop like Sandy and Haanif, then we will underachieve the next two years and Wojo will be gone. If they develop, He'll be fine. How will the be with another summer lifting and improving, IDk, but Wojo's track record has me nervous.
The only way that we would be experienced this year is if players didn't transfer. Duane and Haanif would have helped this team defensively, but our record would be at most 1-2 games better right now. Sandy and Traci would have no effect other than eating scholly's.
"I don't care that I was wrong. And that you proved me wrong. Here's a bunch more information to support my original point that has nothing to do with what you said or what I said wrong."
We are young because Wojo is recruiting over, each year. This discourages existing players, so they transfer out. If Wojo continues this recruiting trend we will be perpetually young.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on February 05, 2018, 03:48:58 PM
We are young because Wojo is recruiting over, each year. This discourages existing players, so they transfer out. If Wojo continues this recruiting trend we will be perpetually young.
Lol, every team does this. Do you want him to stop recruiting players?
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 05, 2018, 03:47:44 PM
"I don't care that I was wrong. And that you proved me wrong. Here's a bunch more information to support my original point that has nothing to do with what you said or what I said wrong."
I admitted that I was wrong that Sam hasn't improved. My point still stands that Wojo's player development track record leaves much to be desired.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 05, 2018, 03:40:41 PM
...
2015 Class: Henry, see Carlino above. Haanif, good Freshman year, Wojo didn't develop him. Traci, good Freshman year, but wasn't able to develop, partly because Markus was taking his minutes, but still only a mid major player. Matt, never going to be anything more than we though he was, most of his improvement is on Todd Smith, not Wojo. Sacar, has shown flashes, but with the minutes he gets, you would expect a red shirt sophomore to average more than 6 points.
...
I disagree with the bit about Matt. Yes, he has a relatively low ceiling, but I would argue that he's a pretty good example of Wojo being able to develop a big man. His footwork and positioning are so much better than freshman year; he's better with soft shots around the rim; and he doesn't foul nearly as much.
Again, he's no superstar but he has undoubtedly improved, and I give Wojo some credit for that.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on February 05, 2018, 03:49:50 PM
Lol, every team does this. Do you want him to stop recruiting players?
He doesn't need to stop recruiting players! He needs to stop recruiting
good players. That's the only way to get average players the playing time they so rightly deserve!
Quote from: mug644 on February 05, 2018, 03:56:09 PM
I disagree with the bit about Matt. Yes, he has a relatively low ceiling, but I would argue that he's a pretty good example of Wojo being able to develop a big man. His footwork and positioning are so much better than freshman year; he's better with soft shots around the rim; and he doesn't foul nearly as much.
Again, he's no superstar but he has undoubtedly improved, and I give Wojo some credit for that.
Even if you give Matt's improvement to Wojo, the sucess rate of players improving under Wojo is low.
Markus, Sam, Matt, JJJ all improved, kudos to Wojo.
Luke, Sandy, Duane, Traci, Haanif, and Sacar have not.
Rowseys points and assists have increased, but his shooting % and three point shooting % have both decreases, so I'll put him in the middle, with Carlino, Henry, and KR.
4 players have improved.
4 have either not had enough time with Wojo or have spun their wheels so can be considered mulligans.
6 have either not improved, or regressed, not including Wally who I don't think falls under any category.
I still think Wojo can get us there, but saying that we will for sure be better solely because of Freshman improvement is giving Wojo more credit than he deserves.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 05, 2018, 04:05:06 PM
Even if you give Matt's improvement to Wojo, the sucess rate of players improving under Wojo is low.
Markus, Sam, Matt, JJJ all improved, kudos to Wojo.
Luke, Sandy, Duane, Traci, Haanif, and Sacar have not.
Rowseys points and assists have increased, but his shooting % and three point shooting % have both decreases, so I'll put him in the middle, with Carlino, Henry, and KR.
4 players have improved.
4 have either not had enough time with Wojo or have spun their wheels so can be considered mulligans.
6 have either not improved, or regressed, not including Wally who I don't think falls under any category.
I still think Wojo can get us there, but saying that we will for sure be better solely because of Freshman improvement is giving Wojo more credit than he deserves.
I'm guessing that you won't give up your position, but I simply disagree. Luke certainly improved. Sacar is much improved, having benefited from a red shirt year. Duane, while needing accept a smaller role, improved his defense and his efficiency.
Just because Sandy, Traci and Haanif (and Duane to some degree) saw that their role was going to be less than hoped for, and so they left does not immediately mean that they did not improve under Wojo. That said, I'll very much agree with you that Sandy and Haanif did not improve in ways that most had hoped.
Kinda hard to say Traci Carter didn't improve. After his freshman season, a couple of pretty good guards named Rowsey and Howard showed up...so while Carter's stats went down slightly, it's hard to know how much was lack of improvement, and how much was an upgrade in surrounding players. And he only played 8 games as a sophomore, then sat out the last two before break because of a sore knee.
Not sure how you gauge improvement based on 8 games with different surrounding players....
I actually wonder if lack of 'development' is really a recruiting miss....Woj has had his fair share.
To me that is a bigger driver of perpetually being young vs. development....that and making choices as well (Chief over Burton | Rowsey over Du | MH over Traci...there are more that have led to roster churn)
Luke's numbers were pretty consistent across his three years, they just came in higher than I think anyone anticipated. Traci arrived the same time Andrew did and had a year to play against him in practice before any one us saw Andrew so he saw that Andrew was ahead of him and he was not developing fast enough to change that. He did also transfer to a mid-major. If Sacar has improved it has only been slightly. I would expect a red-shirt sophomore guard getting 25 minutes to average more than 6 points, while shooting 60% from the line and 15% from threes.
Don't get me wrong, I am not in the fire Wojo camp. I think he is an above average recruiter. I think he has shown improvement in his game development, both prep and in-game. I just think his year to year player development is the weakest facet of his coaching ability. I would love nothing more than for him along with Theo, Sacar, Jamal and Greg to prove me wrong.
Luke improved across the board in almost every statistical category. EFG, TR%, A%, OR, TO etc.
Sacar sees the floor. Which means he is much better than he was two years ago.
Sandy and Haanif left after three semesters. Traci left after one. Pretty hard to blame Wojo for non-improvement there.
Play Defense!
Quote from: #bansultan on February 05, 2018, 04:50:44 PM
Luke improved across the board in almost every statistical category. EFG, TR%, A%, OR, TO etc.
Sacar sees the floor. Which means he is much better than he was two years ago.
Sandy and Haanif left after three semesters. Traci left after one. Pretty hard to blame Wojo for non-improvement there.
If Luke was so much better, his minutes wouldn't have dropped. Sandy, Haanif and Traci were all here for three semesters, plus summer school before their Freshman year. If they can't show improvement in their first two offseasons with the team, I'm not very optimistic that they would have made a huge jump with one or two more. As for Sacar, I guess 6ppg is better than 0 so you're right there, but that's not the level of improvement I think we should expect after three years with the team. Once again not saying Wojo is bad, just that this is his most inconsistent and weakest area.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 05, 2018, 04:59:38 PM
If Luke was so much better, his minutes wouldn't have dropped. Sandy, Haanif and Traci were all here for three semesters, plus summer school before their Freshman year. If they can't show improvement in their first two offseasons with the team, I'm not very optimistic that they would have made a huge jump with one or two more. As for Sacar, I guess 6ppg is better than 0 so you're right there, but that's not the level of improvement I think we should expect after three years with the team. Once again not saying Wojo is bad, just that this is his most inconsistent and weakest area.
Sacar is at best option 4 maybe 5. There's not exactly loads of room for him to contribute on Offense
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on February 05, 2018, 05:05:48 PM
Sacar is at best option 4 maybe 5. There's not exactly loads of room for him to contribute on Offense
Considering one of Markus and Andrew is almost always in foul trouble that moves him up one spot. Also before hitting a 3 against PC and one in garbage time against BU he would not shoot outside the arc under any circumstance, and he has still only hit three on the year (I believe he hit one in Maui). He was getting the Derrick treatment on D, which also hurt his ability to drive further hindering his offensive abilities. If he can develop an outside shot I think it would open up so much more for him. IMHO the best thing for him to do this offseason if go to Arizona with Markus and Jordan and do whatever Desmond has them do, because with the overall level of D improving, if he can't score more consistently his minutes will drop.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on February 05, 2018, 03:48:58 PM
We are young because Wojo is recruiting over, each year. This discourages existing players, so they transfer out. If Wojo continues this recruiting trend we will be perpetually young.
Is the answer to recruit progressively worse players to make sure your upper classman play.....?
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 05, 2018, 05:12:56 PM
Considering one of Markus and Andrew is almost always in foul trouble that moves him up one spot. Also before hitting a 3 against PC and one in garbage time against BU he would not shoot outside the arc under any circumstance, and he has still only hit three on the year (I believe he hit one in Maui). He was getting the Derrick treatment on D, which also hurt his ability to drive further hindering his offensive abilities. If he can develop an outside shot I think it would open up so much more for him. IMHO the best thing for him to do this offseason if go to Arizona with Markus and Jordan and do whatever Desmond has them do, because with the overall level of D improving, if he can't score more consistently his minutes will drop.
...Ners...? Is that you?
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 05, 2018, 06:13:36 PM
...Ners...? Is that you?
Slightly offended that you think I'm Ners. I personally think that Derrick would be a great fit on this team right now, a pass first point that is an above average defender is exactly what this team needs. My point about Sacar is that if teams sag off him on D, his ability to drive is greatly reduced because even though he can get a half step on his defender with his ball fake, they are able to recover, and he just ends up pulling it out most of the time. His greatest offensive weapon is his ability to move without the ball. I think that Harry playing has helped this tremendously because he draws the D in and is a good enough passer to find a cutting Sacar. Now sometimes he forces it, but it is usually a good idea.
jesmu84, I think you were right about floorslapper.
The difference, my esteemed friends, is Matt Heldt.
Reducing his minutes takes a guy who is nearly always in the right place and whom everyone knows exactly what they will get from for either of two guys who are lost half the time.
Yes, both have higher upside and both are greater offensive threats, but the "system" is not working as well when Heldt is on the bench.
Quote from: WarriorFan on February 05, 2018, 06:44:27 PM
The difference, my esteemed friends, is Matt Heldt.
Reducing his minutes takes a guy who is nearly always in the right place and whom everyone knows exactly what they will get from for either of two guys who are lost half the time.
Yes, both have higher upside and both are greater offensive threats, but the "system" is not working as well when Heldt is on the bench.
No. It's our shooters not hitting shots.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 05, 2018, 04:59:38 PM
If Luke was so much better, his minutes wouldn't have dropped. Sandy, Haanif and Traci were all here for three semesters, plus summer school before their Freshman year. If they can't show improvement in their first two offseasons with the team, I'm not very optimistic that they would have made a huge jump with one or two more. As for Sacar, I guess 6ppg is better than 0 so you're right there, but that's not the level of improvement I think we should expect after three years with the team. Once again not saying Wojo is bad, just that this is his most inconsistent and weakest area.
Sorry, you were correct about Traci. And if you are simply going to judge "improvement" by"points" I don't know what to tell you. But Sacar is a serviceable player.
Luke's minutes went down because there was another option to back him up. He still played 24 mpg. And again, was better in almost every meaningful category.
I doubt that Wojo is any better or worse than the majority of coaches when it comes to player development.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 05, 2018, 06:24:03 PM
Slightly offended that you think I'm Ners. I personally think that Derrick would be a great fit on this team right now, a pass first point that is an above average defender is exactly what this team needs. My point about Sacar is that if teams sag off him on D, his ability to drive is greatly reduced because even though he can get a half step on his defender with his ball fake, they are able to recover, and he just ends up pulling it out most of the time. His greatest offensive weapon is his ability to move without the ball. I think that Harry playing has helped this tremendously because he draws the D in and is a good enough passer to find a cutting Sacar. Now sometimes he forces it, but it is usually a good idea.
Man. You're right. If only every player for Marquette had the ability to hit a 3 and drive at a high level. I can't believe that hasn't been our recruiting plan.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 05, 2018, 06:49:37 PM
Sorry, you were correct about Traci. And if you are simply going to judge "improvement" by"points" I don't know what to tell you. But Sacar is a serviceable player.
Luke's minutes went down because there was another option to back him up. He still played 24 mpg. And again, was better in almost every meaningful category.
I doubt that Wojo is any better or worse than the majority of coaches when it comes to player development.
Make no mistake I want Sacar to do well, but if he's getting 25mpg next year I think we're gonna have a problem. I see no scenario where he starts next year with Sam likely moving to the 3, Ed starting at the 4 and hopefully a point guard TBD. With Harry/ Joey the first off the bench, and Sacar's 25 evening out with Greg and Jamal, all at about 20.
Now I'm not trying to get the rep of being obsessed with a player the way Ners was with Derrick or whats his face was with Luke being the worst player in program history, my point was always that a player in his third year in the program getting 25mpg should be scoring more. I'm sure his value add is higher than his ppg because he's still an above average defender, but unless he makes a large jump offensively this offseason, I think he will struggle to see the court.
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 05, 2018, 07:25:41 PM
Man. You're right. If only every player for Marquette had the ability to hit a 3 and drive at a high level. I can't believe that hasn't been our recruiting plan.
Literally just said that Derrick would be a great fit on this team, but OK. No guard should come off a red-shirt year and shoot 15% from three's especially when he knows that shooting threes is such a huge part of our offence.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 05, 2018, 07:29:49 PM
Make no mistake I want Sacar to do well, but if he's getting 25mpg next year I think we're gonna have a problem. I see no scenario where he starts next year with Sam likely moving to the 3, Ed starting at the 4 and hopefully a point guard TBD. With Harry/ Joey the first off the bench, and Sacar's 25 evening out with Greg and Jamal, all at about 20.
Now I'm not trying to get the rep of being obsessed with a player the way Ners was with Derrick or whats his face was with Luke being the worst player in program history, my point was always that a player in his third year in the program getting 25mpg should be scoring more. I'm sure his value add is higher than his ppg because he's still an above average defender, but unless he makes a large jump offensively this offseason, I think he will struggle to see the court.
You are shifting goalposts. You originally said that Sacar didn't improve. He has improved. But I agree with you that his numbers will likely decrease next year. But that won't be due to Wojo - that will be due to talent surpassing him.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 05, 2018, 07:31:44 PM
Literally just said that Derrick would be a great fit on this team, but OK. No guard should come off a red-shirt year and shoot 15% from three's especially when he knows that shooting threes is such a huge part of our offence.
That's not his role.
Quote from: WarriorFan on February 05, 2018, 06:44:27 PM
The difference, my esteemed friends, is Matt Heldt.
Reducing his minutes takes a guy who is nearly always in the right place and whom everyone knows exactly what they will get from for either of two guys who are lost half the time.
Yes, both have higher upside and both are greater offensive threats, but the "system" is not working as well when Heldt is on the bench.
If he is the difference then we really are in trouble.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 05, 2018, 03:40:41 PM
Sam's stats may have increased, but you have to look at all of Wojo's players.
2014 Class: Carlino wasn't around long enough for Wojo to have too much of an effect on him, we knew he was gonna be a chucker and he was. Sandy had a decent Freshman year but Wojo was never able to develop him into anything more than a Horizon League player.
2015 Class: Henry, see Carlino above. Haanif, good Freshman year, Wojo didn't develop him. Traci, good Freshman year, but wasn't able to develop, partly because Markus was taking his minutes, but still only a mid major player. Matt, never going to be anything more than we though he was, most of his improvement is on Todd Smith, not Wojo. Sacar, has shown flashes, but with the minutes he gets, you would expect a red shirt sophomore to average more than 6 points.
2016 Class: KR, see Carlino and Henry. Markus and Sam have improved, shows hope for the future, but two out of eight isn't anything to write home about
2017 Class: We cannot yet say how Wojo develops this class until he gets another full summer with them, but I would say that the development of this class will save/ cost Wojo his job. If they develop like Sandy and Haanif, then we will underachieve the next two years and Wojo will be gone. If they develop, He'll be fine. How will the be with another summer lifting and improving, IDk, but Wojo's track record has me nervous.
The only way that we would be experienced this year is if players didn't transfer. Duane and Haanif would have helped this team defensively, but our record would be at most 1-2 games better right now. Sandy and Traci would have no effect other than eating scholly's.
I think it is more about players like Haanif, Sandy, Traci and Duane being recruited over. Their time decreased and they decided to leave. Hard to have experience when older players are not willing to come off the bench.
Quote from: WarriorFan on February 05, 2018, 06:44:27 PM
The difference, my esteemed friends, is Matt Heldt.
Reducing his minutes takes a guy who is nearly always in the right place and whom everyone knows exactly what they will get from for either of two guys who are lost half the time.
Yes, both have higher upside and both are greater offensive threats, but the "system" is not working as well when Heldt is on the bench.
Uh, no...
In the last six games, Heldt has made two baskets, two.
Before you start with the defense he has played minimal minutes, in those minutes, he has 12 fouls.
Matt freezes when he gets the ball down low and has no clue as to what to do. I believe his teammates are actually apprehensive to even throwing him the ball. The only thing he does is runs out to foul line, sets a screen and runs back.
Probably nice kid, the old "lots of energy" guy, but not the answer. He had his chance, but Wojo probably believes he has to move on and play Theo/Harry.
Theo was great on Saturday and I'm not trying to take that away at all. I love his potential and physicality. However, the "he hasn't fouled out since" argument feels a bit hollow when he has had four games in that stretch where he logged 16 fouls in a combined 43 minutes. The most he played in any of those games was 16 minutes. In two of those games he had 6 and 7 combined minutes.
He's shown flashes of being better at not fouling, but it's certainly not a "fixed" issue as of yet. That includes his 4 fouls at Xavier in 16 minutes, which was less than 2 weeks ago, so it remains a present problem.
Quote from: bilsu on February 05, 2018, 08:41:28 PM
I think it is more about players like Haanif, Sandy, Traci and Duane being recruited over. Their time decreased and they decided to leave. Hard to have experience when older players are not willing to come off the bench.
I think this can be attributed to players not adding elements to their game. Once word got out that Haanif could only go left, teams adjusted and he couldn't add another aspect to his game. Once it was known that Sandy was doing most of his damage on catch and shoot threes, teams adjusted and Sandy couldn't add a pull up jumper, partially because his release point was so low. Word is now out that Sacar only scores around the rim so teams have adjusted and he has yet to respond. This separates decent players from good ones. The scouting report on Markus and Sam is that they are three points shooters so you have to chase them off the line. Markus has developed a floater, and Sam has improved his post game. Neither are as good at the newer elements, but they provide a different look for the defense which means that both Markus and Sam are still getting good looks. You are either improving or regressing because the more you play the more other teams will know how to defend you. You always have to be adding moves to your skillset.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 05, 2018, 07:31:44 PM
Literally just said that Derrick would be a great fit on this team, but OK. No guard should come off a red-shirt year and shoot 15% from three's especially when he knows that shooting threes is such a huge part of our offence.
We have plenty of three point shooters. The last thing we need is another guy camped out at the three point line.
Sacar's role is to play defense on opponent's best guard/wing and attack the basket on offense. He is a probably our best defender (although with this team that's like being the tallest midget) and he can be electric attacking the rim, although inconsistent at finishing. Wish he were a more consistent free throw shooter.
He understands his job and is doing it well, most of the time. Might he lose minutes next year? Maybe, if so that's a great thing, but he's an important piece.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on February 05, 2018, 09:32:05 PM
We have plenty of three point shooters. The last thing we need is another guy camped out at the three point line.
Sacar's role is to play defense on opponent's best guard/wing and attack the basket on offense. He is a probably our best defender (although with this team that's like being the tallest midget) and he can be electric attacking the rim, although inconsistent at finishing. Wish he were a more consistent free throw shooter.
He understands his job and is doing it well, most of the time. Might he lose minutes next year? Maybe, if so that's a great thing, but he's an important piece.
We take a lot of three's but we do not have a lot of three point shooters. Over 80% of our threes on the year have come from three players. Those three plus Cain are the only ones that really need to be guarded out to the three point line, and Cain only has 40 attempts on the year.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 05, 2018, 09:38:07 PM
We take a lot of three's but we do not have a lot of three point shooters. Over 80% of our threes on the year have come from three players. Those three plus Cain are the only ones that really need to be guarded out to the three point line, and Cain only has 40 attempts on the year.
Didn't say we have a lot of three point shooters. I said we have plenty. "Enough" might have been a better choice. We need guys who can take advantage of the space/lanes created by those shooters by driving the ball to the rim. Our offense bogs down when we get one-dimensional and shoot too many threes so the last thing we need is another bomber. Sacar fills that role better than anybody else on the team right now.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 05, 2018, 06:49:37 PM
I doubt that Wojo is any better or worse than the majority of coaches when it comes to player development.
How do we reconcile that fact with him being paid in the top 10% of college basketball coaches?
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on February 05, 2018, 09:47:32 PM
Didn't say we have a lot of three point shooters. I said we have plenty. "Enough" might have been a better choice. We need guys who can take advantage of the space/lanes created by those shooters by driving the ball to the rim. Our offense bogs down when we get one-dimensional and shoot too many threes so the last thing we need is another bomber. Sacar fills that role better than anybody else on the team right now.
My apologies, I misinterpreted your post, and I completely agree that we need slashers, I'm just not convinced Sacar can succeed in that role. When teams know that they only need to guard Sacar 15 feet from the basket, they can sag more, and help if someone is driving. I wouldn't classify Jamal or Greg as three point shooters but they have shown the ability to hit the wide open three at a respectable clip, which means that the scouting report on them will be that they need to be closed down hard, which will make it easier for them to drive. Once they get better bodies on them, I think they will far surpass Sacar in this role, especially since their defense could very easily catch his as well.
Quote from: nyg on February 05, 2018, 08:43:08 PM
Uh, no...
In the last six games, Heldt has made two baskets, two.
Before you start with the defense he has played minimal minutes, in those minutes, he has 12 fouls.
Matt freezes when he gets the ball down low and has no clue as to what to do. I believe his teammates are actually apprehensive to even throwing him the ball. The only thing he does is runs out to foul line, sets a screen and runs back.
Probably nice kid, the old "lots of energy" guy, but not the answer. He had his chance, but Wojo probably believes he has to move on and play Theo/Harry.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think WarriorFan's initial post had to deal with Matt on defense? At least that's what I thought. Which makes more sense.
Quote from: nyg on February 05, 2018, 08:43:08 PM
Uh, no...
In the last six games, Heldt has made two baskets, two.
Before you start with the defense he has played minimal minutes, in those minutes, he has 12 fouls.
Matt freezes when he gets the ball down low and has no clue as to what to do. I believe his teammates are actually apprehensive to even throwing him the ball. The only thing he does is runs out to foul line, sets a screen and runs back.
Probably nice kid, the old "lots of energy" guy, but not the answer. He had his chance, but Wojo probably believes he has to move on and play Theo/Harry.
Don't want to get in a battle and completely understand your point, but basketball is a team game and teams with effective systems win. Matt had a way of being in the right place and doing the right things that gave Sam / Rowsey / Howard (the real threats) more good looks. He's not out there to score - he's out there to make the system work, set screens, grab boards, box out, etc. Don't measure him by his stats, measure him by the other guy's stats when he's out there.
Quote from: WarriorFan on February 06, 2018, 06:17:35 AM
Don't want to get in a battle and completely understand your point, but basketball is a team game and teams with effective systems win. Matt had a way of being in the right place and doing the right things that gave Sam / Rowsey / Howard (the real threats) more good looks. He's not out there to score - he's out there to make the system work, set screens, grab boards, box out, etc. Don't measure him by his stats, measure him by the other guy's stats when he's out there.
Yeah, no problem. Different opinions are good at times and I see your point also, but I still believe Wojo has made up his mind. Heck, maybe Matt starts tomorrow for all I know, he had his best game of the year against Delgado the last time.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 05, 2018, 10:08:11 PM
My apologies, I misinterpreted your post, and I completely agree that we need slashers, I'm just not convinced Sacar can succeed in that role. When teams know that they only need to guard Sacar 15 feet from the basket, they can sag more, and help if someone is driving. I wouldn't classify Jamal or Greg as three point shooters but they have shown the ability to hit the wide open three at a respectable clip, which means that the scouting report on them will be that they need to be closed down hard, which will make it easier for them to drive. Once they get better bodies on them, I think they will far surpass Sacar in this role, especially since their defense could very easily catch his as well.
No worries...I think we pretty much agree.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on February 05, 2018, 09:47:59 PM
How do we reconcile that fact with him being paid in the top 10% of college basketball coaches?
I don't really care what he is paid. I don't pay his salary. Doesn't even enter the equation.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on February 05, 2018, 09:47:59 PM
How do we reconcile that fact with him being paid in the top 10% of college basketball coaches?
Ever stop to think that maybe we have to overpay to get a coach of even wojo's ability? Marquette, as shown time and time again during coaching searches, isn't exactly a dream destination for the top 1% of bball coaches.
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 06, 2018, 01:28:32 PM
Ever stop to think that maybe we have to overpay to get a coach of even wojo's ability? Marquette, as shown time and time again during coaching searches, isn't exactly a dream destination for the top 1% of bball coaches.
Okay. Fair enough. We agree Wojo is overpaid. What is it about Marquette that requires us to overpay coaches? Our facilities, academics, tradition, fan support, faculty support, Milwaukee, weather, recruiting budget, the Big East?
Quote from: WhiteTrash on February 06, 2018, 03:22:10 PM
Okay. Fair enough. We agree Wojo is overpaid. What is it about Marquette that requires us to overpay coaches? Our facilities, academics, tradition, fan support, faculty support, Milwaukee, weather, recruiting budget, the Big East?
I never said that.
Marquette is a small school in the midwest. Not a hot-bed of talent. Not a super desirable location. Not a state school.
Marquette is also a Catholic, Jesuit institution. Beyond the advancement of knowledge (hopefully a goal of every university), MU's mission includes:
"...the promotion of a life of faith, and the development of leadership expressed in service to others. All this we pursue for the greater glory of God and the common benefit of the human community."
That focus on faith and service influences the entire university -- including the athletic department and the men's basketball program.
In this regard, Wojo seems to be a very good fit for MU. But it's not for everyone.