1. It sure as hell wasn't dull.
2. Macura is a punk. Nice flop to draw the tech. And so many other things. How did Duke miss on him?
3. Markus with two poor decisions late on drives. Dodged contact three times.
4. Cain and John look like they might be OK. Somebody needs to help Theo with his FT stroke. Cain taking minutes from Sacar.
5. It isn't like Marquette didn't have their chances. Possible steal for Sam turning into a three for X. Three missed layups for Markus. Decent looks for Rowsey.
6. Froling in the game at crunch time. Very little Heldt in the second half.
7. X is a top 10 team for a reason. Long, deep, experienced, without fear.
8. Free throws matta'd down the stretch.
9. A great game. A painful loss. In the end, Marquette had opportunities to make plays at winning time and didn't make them. Xavier did. Pretty simple.
FTs matta
Free throw mattered all game, not just down the stretch
Fts matter
Too many turnovers
Need to rebound better
The missed Howard layup and subsequent 50/50 ball that MU lost on the other end, followed by the 3 was the killer sequence. Possible 8 point swing in ten seconds right there. Absolutely changed dynamic of last 2 minutes. MU was done once that 3 went in.
In that though, terrific play call by Woj out of the timeout to get Howard that layup look.
Fun game. Could have easily won.
Even B- Markus and we win.
Great showing from Jamal.
Make your freethrows and last possession may have mattered.
Bluiett and Macura are seniors, and know how to win. I can't wait for our upperclassmen next season.
9-9 gets us in. Beat Georgetown.
This team can hang with anyone. Chances were there but just not quite there
Cain is cold blooded. Hasn't let big moments affect him at all this year. Can't teach that.
Technical and the poor call on the block by Hauser were huge.
Macura really bugs me should have had a T of his own when he followed the ref to the complain about his clear foul on the box out.
Have to cut down on fouls, every game is an issue.
No Hedlt and Sacar in second half. BE play= more John/Froling and Cain.
Yes Markus was 6 for 19, 1 for 8 from three and 4 turnovers, but he will win more games for MU than lose.
Without Cain, this could have been a blowout.
Free throws X was 22 for 24 MU was 8 for 14, with two missed front ends.
Only 10 MU turnovers, thought it was more.
Three home losses, wish they could have won at least one of them.
Xavier really keyed on Sam. Wouldn't help off of him at any cost. Essentially the sole problem to Sam's game is that he struggles creating his own shot, and if our guards can't get him the ball, well...there ya go.
I'll take the L. Awful calls and were still able to have it decided in the last minute
Quote from: Sultan of Kookiness on December 27, 2017, 09:56:22 PM
Xavier really keyed on Sam. Wouldn't help off of him at any cost. Essentially the sole problem to Sam's game is that he struggles creating his own shot, and if our guards can't get him the ball, well...there ya go.
Which is a second reason I struggle seeing him in the NBA. 6'7 and can't create his own shot. And doesn't shoot as well as Korver.
No good losses, but I believe this is a tournament team.
Yes, FT's matta. I've always felt that way.
Betted D could have led to a win - there were at least 3 (I missed the first 14 min.) breakaways, uncontested, and a good number of matador ole's.
Tough night for Markus, had some drives that didn't end well.
Was hoping we'd win to see what kind of support Jamal got for SOTG. Still, gotta give it to Rowsey, he's a gamer.
Tough loss at home, but a few bright spots: (1) at one point, the Warriors had 2 sophomores and 3 freshman on the court, which portends a bright future, (2) an average night for Howard and the Warriors win, and (3) Froling could develop into a beast come March.
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on December 27, 2017, 10:01:17 PM
Yes, FT's matta. I've always felt that way.
FT% didn't matter. FT rate did. Xavier attacks the basket and gets calls. Marquette shoots jumpers and doesn't. Basketball 101.
I'm encouraged by this game. Rowsey was spectacular, even had some great defensive plays. Sam was solid, but did not get a lot of space in this game. With the 1-3-1 they covered the top of the key well and Sam had no room to operate. Rough night for Markus. Never had it from the jump. His transition errors are becoming worrying, need to correct those. Had Rowsey, Hauser, and Cain open on the wings and instead drove with a minute left and missed it short. Didn't like that. Shoutout to the newbies. Cain was outstanding, Greg showed great heart.
24-14 free throws. Surprisingly X getting into the bonus iwith 8 minutes remaining in the first half didn't kill us. Defensive rotations were slow at times and that hedging defense causes mismatches in the post.
Seeing Jamal make 4 threes was fun to watch, and makes it encouraging to see the development. There will be other games when Howard or Rowsey just flat out stink and cant get a bucket and we will need the other guys to make big shots.
Quote from: nyg on December 27, 2017, 09:55:43 PM
Have to cut down on fouls, every game is an issue.
No Hedlt and Sacar in second half. BE play= more John/Froling and Cain.
Yes Markus was 6 for 19, 1 for 8 from three and 4 turnovers, but he will win more games for MU than lose.
Without Cain, this could have been a blowout.
Free throws X was 22 for 24 MU was 8 for 14, with two missed front ends.
Only 10 MU turnovers, thought it was more.
Three home losses, wish they could have won at least one of them.
Markus needs to "win" a big game for MU, not just score 30 in a game they should win anyhow. Everyone is going to have an off-night, but Markus compounded things by playing stupid.
No chance MU gets into the tourney with all these home losses.
I forgot to mention the officiating was crap.
Wojo needs to figure out how K works the refs. Er, how Mack works the refs based on those calls.
Macura is the Big East's biggest douche since Devendorf, though not nearly as good.
Howard's in a hell of a slump. Not valuing the ball can be fixed without giving him a Rowsey-like benching, but those TOs were ugly. The bricks are less of a concern; figure those end sooner rather than later.
Think we're starting to see that shift of talent winning out, with Cain taking Anim's minutes and Froling taking Heldt's. Cain was really good.
Quote from: mayfairskatingrink on December 27, 2017, 10:05:10 PM
Markus needs to "win" a big game for MU, not just score 30 in a game they should win anyhow.
Terrible take.
Quote from: mayfairskatingrink on December 27, 2017, 10:05:10 PM
Markus needs to "win" a big game for MU, not just score 30 in a game they should win anyhow. Everyone is going to have an off-night, but Markus compounded things by playing stupid.
No chance MU gets into the tourney with all these home losses.
Markus won us Xavier game last year
But Markus needs to learn when to give it up on transition. Same as Rowsey on that one terrible game.
I guess they want Harry to pass first rather than take the open shot. Jamal was sensational tonight. If he can put on some weight/muscle over the summer watch out.
Quote from: Newsdreams on December 27, 2017, 10:15:11 PM
But Narkus needs to learn when to give it up on transition. Same as Rowsey on that one terrible game.
Also Rowsey needs to learn how to run the offense come crunch time and not just hero ball it.
Quote from: Newsdreams on December 27, 2017, 10:13:59 PM
Markus won us Xavier game last year
MU hasn't gotten anything close to a good win this season, and they've lost a bunch of home games already.
Quote from: mayfairskatingrink on December 27, 2017, 10:16:18 PM
MU hasn't gotten anything close to a good win this season, and they've lost a bunch of home games already.
They weren't supposed to win this game and didn't. Plenty of opportunities ahead.
Seems like some better D could have changed the outcome. I saw at least 3 X breakaways for an uncontested jam, plus there were a number of ole's. Disappointing. I think there will be a lot of games this year where we are competitive but can't get over the hump. Nice game for Jamal.
Cain stole the show, but I think Froling is the X factor that can take the team up a notch. When John replaced him in the second half, the difference in the offense was noticeable, and Xavier made its run. Froling comes back in and mu claws its way back. I tend to think Froling starts on Saturday, rather than our third best big man. He gets boards and finds the open man, which is what this team needs.
That foul call on Hauser's block was a killer. That was as clean as they get - at least as clean as the block on Howard on the other end. We had our shots after that, but that turned the tide, followed by a couple ugly sequences by MU.
Wojo better show them film of the uncontested layups after made baskets. I can take missed shots (even free throws). There is no reason an opponent should get a layup off a made basket. That is just laziness, and it was the difference in the game.
JP is a punk, but he is a punk who knows how to use it to get in his favor. Rowsey could learn a thing or two from him in terms of getting under guys' skin but not actually getting T'd up himself.
With all that said, heck of a game. There's plenty to be optimistic about.
Wasted opportunity. Rowsey had some great hot streaks, Cain stepped up big, and Hauser had a very nice floor game with 8 assists. Too bad he didn't get some of Howard's shot.
Obviously a poor game for Markus, but I'll still ride with him any day.
Defense let us down, especially in a key 6 minute stretch in the second half. Xavier used a 21-9 run to turn a 5 point deficit into a 7 point lead. I think MU had just one defensive stop in the stretch.
Onto the next one. Need a W on Saturday.
Quote from: tower912 on December 27, 2017, 09:47:17 PM
2. Macura is a punk. Nice flop to draw the tech. And so many other things. How did Duke miss on him?
Sure some acting on the flop. But watch the replay. Froling threw a pretty good shoulder his way. I may ask what Macura was doing so close to Rowsey at that point after the foul though...
All part of the game.
Woulda shoulda coulda game. Only 1. Hope we don't regret it at end of season.
Every team will have woulda-shoulda-coulda games but a loser team has a season full of them. Let's beat Georgetown and avoid that path.
So, in order to get the needed "resume win," MU will need to beat Villanova (2 chances) or Xavier on the road?
I know there will be some who jump on me for saying this - they'll view it as "accepting mediocrity" or some garbage - but I come out of this game very encouraged.
Our young players exceeded expectations and made some very nice contributions against an outstanding team. Cain ... wow!
We almost beat the No. 6 team in the country even though our 25 ppg scorer had a poor game - and an even more horrible second half. I agree with the earlier comment that if Markus had even a B- game, we walk out of there with a win.
I'm not pinning it all on Markus, he's won us a fair share of games, too. But unfortunately he picked a bad game to have a bad game.
Also, several of us had a discussion in another thread the last couple of days about the future of the center position for Marquette. I think Wojo showed us how he rates our candidates. Matt works as hard as he can and does as well as his very limited talent lets him, but he is a 10-15 mpg guy max. I was extremely encouraged by the couple of very nice post moves Theo had, and I like the way Froling fought for the ball and had 8 rebounds (several in traffic) in 20 minutes. He needs to show some confidence when he gets the ball in the post.
Macura and Rowsey are the exact same kind of basketball personality. I would hate Rowsey if I was playing against Marquette, and Macura obviously is extremely hate-able. Rowsey was trash-talking the X bench even when we were losing.
Our D is still lacking, but X is a heck of an offensive team with no real weakness.
I know that FT% doesn't matter because that's what the smart money says, but if we shot X's % tonight and they shot ours, we're celebrating. Heresy, I know.
Love the headline, tower!
If we play like that every game, we will get the 9 victories we need and then some. If we play like that AND get a typical Markus game, we can even beat Nova again. If we don't "bring it," though, we can lose to anybody, even DePauw.
All in all, while I sure wish we would have won, I come out of this encouraged and excited about our future - both for the rest of this season and beyond.
Go Marquette!
Quote from: MUBigDance on December 27, 2017, 10:35:25 PM
Woulda shoulda coulda game. Only 1. Hope we don't regret it at end of season.
Every team will have woulda-shoulda-coulda games but a loser team has a season full of them. Let's beat Georgetown and avoid that path.
MU should beat Georgetown. No juice to that game. It only means something if they lose.
1. I'd take Macura on MU in a second.
2. Most entertaining MU team in quite a while.
3. Froling will continue to get more minutes than Heldt or Theo - and we are still on the rusty version of him.
4. If the freshman and Froling are the players they showed tonight, we move up to a 3rd or 4th place team in the BE.
If we give Froling another couple games to adjust, and/or a decent Howard (esp second half), this turns into a win...I think.
Had we won, we'd be debating Cain as SOTG!
Rowsey played well tonight. Distributed the ball fine...not his fault most guys wanted to give it right back.
Heldt got abused by Jones in the beginning and was quickly shuffled to the bench, not an encouraging sign from a usually solid defender.
Rowsey took it personally when Macura drew the BS technical and elevated his game. Helluva performance from him tonight. Would have been the stud had we won.
Where's Sacar?
As other's noted, Xavier correctly keyed on Sam as our most important player. Despite this he ended up with 12 points, 7 boards, and 8 assists. Kid is the smartest player we've had in a long time. The foul on his block was a real momentum killer.
Howard's three point shot is off. He's 6/27 over the last three games. I'm sure that will correct itself. More worried that he seems to be shying away from contact the past two games. That's what caused the Macura block. He's drawn zero fouls despite taking a lot of drives. He biffed that last layup and it seemed to because he was worried about getting hit. Stitches messing with him a little bit maybe? I think he will be fine.
John showed some nice post moves to get his four points. If he keeps working on that he will have a role on the team. On defense he gets blocks but is consistently abused. Needs to be better.
This is what I envisioned Jamal Cain being as a freshman. A three and d specialist who occasionally throws down devastating dunks. Keep this up and Sacar will be hard to find again.
Froling was beastly on the boards and wast the only big to slow down their bigs. He needs to get his shooting legs under him. Once he does, he will be our starting center.
Did an admirable job on defense against some tough assignments in Macura and Blueitt. Liked seeing those two threes go in for him, even if the one didn't count. If he can be even a 33% shooter from range, he could start for us.
Quote from: mayfairskatingrink on December 27, 2017, 10:38:14 PM
So, in order to get the needed "resume win," MU will need to beat Villanova (2 chances) or Xavier on the road?
Not how the tournament works. Marquette could go 0-4 against X and Nova and as long as they go 9-5 against the rest of the BEast or better, they should be dancing.
Quote from: Sultan of Kookiness on December 27, 2017, 09:56:22 PM
Xavier really keyed on Sam. Wouldn't help off of him at any cost. Essentially the sole problem to Sam's game is that he struggles creating his own shot, and if our guards can't get him the ball, well...there ya go.
Quote from: tower912 on December 27, 2017, 09:58:15 PM
Which is a second reason I struggle seeing him in the NBA. 6'7 and can't create his own shot. And doesn't shoot as well as Korver.
Count me in for 12 points on 67% shooting, 8 rebounds, and 7 assists with 0 turnovers every night from Sam.
I tend to agree that Rowsey's distribution was fine. Announcers love to say a team shouldn't take an early three when down three or four in the last minute. That approach is fine unless you're playing the top free throw team in the conference. Rowsey was right to be jacking up threes at the end. Trading twos for two made free throws gets you nowhere.
Quote from: Sultan of Kookiness on December 27, 2017, 10:03:33 PM
FT% didn't matter. FT rate did. Xavier attacks the basket and gets calls. Marquette shoots jumpers and doesn't. Basketball 101.
Yet if Marquette shoots the same FT% that Xavier did, Marquette wins the game. So free throw percentage certainly mattered.
Quote from: mayfairskatingrink on December 27, 2017, 10:38:14 PM
So, in order to get the needed "resume win," MU will need to beat Villanova (2 chances) or Xavier on the road?
We could split SH, Creighton, Providence, Butler, sweep, GT, Depaul, St. Johns. Be 10-8
Quote from: wadesworld on December 27, 2017, 10:56:49 PM
Yet if Marquette shoots the same FT% that Xavier did, Marquette wins the game. So free throw percentage certainly mattered.
FT% always mattas.
It just mattas a lot less than fans tend to think
I saw what I needed to see, this is a tournament team.
Lots of good things from the team tonight.
- Rowsey was excellent
- Cain was on... not just with the shooting, but playing decent D as well
- Sam was strong and smart
- John was strong and big (not so smart?)
- Greg was what we need from a freshman backup guard
Unfortunately:
- Sacar was overmatched with Bluiett... so was everyone else. Kid is good.
- Froling was very tentative. I know lots have high hopes for him, but he showed no nose for the basket yet. One or two missed threes from him still create space because the D will need to guard him. A couple makes would be much better!
- Howard was off, but he was also abused constantly. Most plays - whether he had the ball or not - he was fouled 3-5 times. He needs to learn to handle this better, and to get some calls.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 27, 2017, 11:01:47 PM
FT% always mattas.
It just mattas a lot less than fans tend to think
On average, you are right. But, in a close game, it is a big deal.
I thought the crowd was excellent tonight at the Bradley Center. MU played well, but not well enough. That 50/50 ball that Sam didn't get, that passed out for a Xavier three to make it 85-80 was a heartbreaker. Need the same energy from the team and fanbase on Saturday.
I enjoyed the game. This is what a Big East team should look like. They battled for rebounds. HF got boards, kept boards alive with tips, and had a nice baseline reverse that Heldt never could do.
Cain looked really good this game. Dropping 3s. TJ had a couple post moves in a row. They went with a press with Cain at top and then HF and Heldt in the game. It seemed to spark a run.
Man, it sure seems like the two Smurfs just don't like to give the ball up when the other is hot. Rowsey hits like three buckets and is streaking down the left. Howard drives the lane and chunks it instead of finding Rowsey for a heat check. People complain about Sam not creating a shot. Dude flashes to left wing, wide open, calling for it and Rowsey gives him the calm down/settle it down hand. Man, pass that mofo the ball in rhythm and let him break that zone on the flash.
Sam just a joy to watch. Something as simple as a ball fake toward the basket from the left wing and he gets 2 X defenders to jump, freezes the other defenders, and makes an easy pass to the corner for a wide open 3.
Officiating is what it is. You have, what. . 50+ year olds. . Trying to keep up with early 20s dudes in their prime. Yeah, a bad call on Sam's block when he was shielded from his backside. Play on .
Ref show that ended up being entertaining.
Some poor decisions to compound it.
Markus was cold.
When do we start getting home cooking?
Tough loss but the kids are damn good. Win on Saturday.
#FTsmatta-sometimes
They did tonight for both teams. Good game. JP's block on Howard was the tide turner in my opinion. Instead of a tie, they come back and hit a three, if I recall. Down 5 points just like that.
We also had a play coming out of the timeout where Wojo drew up a back door layup by Howard for another tie, and we missed.
Cain was more that able (stole that from Raftery), Theo had his moments, Sam I wish would be more aggressive as he killer matchup for others. #6 team in the country and we had a chance to tie with 30 seconds left.
Next up
Quote from: mupanther on December 27, 2017, 11:09:57 PM
I thought the crowd was excellent tonight at the Bradley Center.
Great crowd tonight. Need that energy 8 more times.
This game showed the weaknesses of Anim and Matt. Anim finally has competition at the 3. Cain breakout game, maybe. Elliott and Theo still improving. Froling needs
to be more aggressive on the O end, just needs time on the court. The 2 pigmys need to be more team players on the break, to many missed lay-ups but missed opportunities to others. They both have 2 guard mentality, not great passers. Fun to watch but frustrating at times. Need to temper it down when they have the lead
and get better shots.
The D again is not good enough to beat good teams, easy lay-ups and open threes. Not good. Pick and roll D is horrendous. Do not get it, is it that hard to coach how
to defend it better. X is good, have the pieces to make it to the final 4. Seniors make a difference. Like or dislike Macura, made big baskets as well as Bluett, plus they
have lots of pieces. Impressed. Can not wait to watch Villy vs. X.
Quote from: mayfairskatingrink on December 27, 2017, 10:05:10 PM
Markus needs to "win" a big game for MU, not just score 30 in a game they should win anyhow. Everyone is going to have an off-night, but Markus compounded things by playing stupid.
No chance MU gets into the tourney with all these home losses.
Badger ahole troll
I would say we get the home cooking when Howard isn't scared to take contact to draw a foul and maybe get blocked. I know, sounds stupid because no one wants to get blocked right? Two plays mentioned were the back door overshoot layup and the fast break layup. I also see times where he is dribbling it with a guy on his backside and could probably pull the slow down and get pushed from behind to draw a foul.
Macura, senior vet, knows what he is doing. A little under the skin and then flops on a semi shoulder to draw a T. It's part of the game.
Wonder if is the beginning of the end for Matty, hardly saw any minutes in the second half.
The kid works hard and has done everything that has been asked of him in 2.5 years, but Theo keeps improving every game, Froling is starting to get his feet underneath him and there is an even bigger logjam in the front court next season.
Couldn't see the game but from the high score, can one infer that defense was lacking?
Krispy Kreme defence ain't gonna cut it.
Sam and Markus, ya ain't in Chicago St. land no moore.
FT's matta, bigly, hey?
Of course FTs matter but it's not that simple. Rowsey, Howard and Hauser are elite FT shooters and need to find more ways to get to the line. That group was 5-5 on FTs while the rest of the team was 3-9. Anyone other than the big 3 going to the line (except maybe Heldt) is a win for the defense.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 27, 2017, 10:56:49 PM
Yet if Marquette shoots the same FT% that Xavier did, Marquette wins the game. So free throw percentage certainly mattered.
And if MU had the same FT rate that Xavier did, they would have blown X out of the water.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 27, 2017, 10:54:31 PM
Count me in for 12 points on 67% shooting, 8 rebounds, and 7 assists with 0 turnovers every night from Sam.
That's the point. He only took six shots the entire game. He needs people to get him the ball because he can't create.
OTOH, Rowsey took 24 shots and Howard 19. That's not good.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 27, 2017, 10:33:01 PM
Sure some acting on the flop. But watch the replay. Froling threw a pretty good shoulder his way. I may ask what Macura was doing so close to Rowsey at that point after the foul though...
All part of the game.
Yeah, seen that on the replay, I think he might be taking the baton from Rowsey going into next year.
PIP + FTM = 66. That's 73% of X's points essentially handed to them. Think about that.
Build a defense from the baseline out, coach. No excuse for this scheme.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 28, 2017, 07:44:11 AM
PIP + FTM = 66. That's 73% of X's points essentially handed to them. Think about that.
Build a defense from the baseline out, coach. No excuse for this scheme.
It's not changing. The perimeter players aren't quick enough.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 28, 2017, 07:44:11 AM
PIP + FTM = 66. That's 73% of X's points essentially handed to them. Think about that.
Build a defense from the baseline out, coach. No excuse for this scheme.
I have never seen a defense that breaks down so quickly as ours - we our poor both on and off the ball. We may win a couple of shootouts against good teams but we won't be one of them until we get a serviceable D scheme in place.
Quote from: Sultan of Kookiness on December 28, 2017, 07:52:57 AM
It's not changing. The perimeter players aren't quick enough.
Nonsense. Horrid scheme
Quote from: Sultan of Kookiness on December 28, 2017, 07:37:50 AM
And if MU had the same FT rate that Xavier did, they would have blown X out of the water.
Easier to make free throws than to get them. Especially with a team that is perimeter/3 point oriented. Free throw % was a huge factor in the game. Xavier making their free throws at a high percentage while Marquette not making them at a high percentage was the difference in the game.
Quote from: Sultan of Kookiness on December 28, 2017, 07:52:57 AM
It's not changing. The perimeter players aren't quick enough.
Sultan may be true - but I'm already thinking about next year personally. If MH isn't quick or tall enough then we need something that works for him and the players we have. I'm fairly certain they are the core for the foreseeable future.
Where's JB to tell us FT no Matta?
Quote from: wadesworld on December 28, 2017, 07:59:09 AM
Easier to make free throws than to get them. Especially with a team that is perimeter/3 point oriented. Free throw % was a huge factor in the game. Xavier making their free throws at a high percentage while Marquette not making them at a high percentage was the difference in the game.
Not really. Free throw rate was way more of a factor.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 28, 2017, 07:57:58 AM
Nonsense. Horrid scheme
Agree to disagree. Regardless, it's not changing.
Quote from: Sultan of Kookiness on December 28, 2017, 08:11:14 AM
Not really. Free throw rate was way more of a factor.
Last night? Not really, no. You can't change the calls the refs made. You can make the free throws you got. And the % that Xavier made the free throws they got compared to the % of free throws that Marquette made that they got was the difference in the game.
Missing free throws matters. No matter what Scoopers say. Does free throw % over the course of a season decide how good of a team you are? No. Does making the free throws you get in individual games matter? Abso-freaking-lutely, and it was a difference in the game last night against a top 5 opponent.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 28, 2017, 08:22:22 AM
Last night? Not really, no. You can't change the calls the refs made. You can make the free throws you got. And the % that Xavier made the free throws they got compared to the % of free throws that Marquette made that they got was the difference in the game.
Missing free throws matters. No matter what Scoopers say. Does free throw % over the course of a season decide how good of a team you are? No. Does making the free throws you get in individual games matter? Abso-freaking-lutely, and it was a difference in the game last night against a top 5 opponent.
Oh for the love of Pete. NO ONE SAYS THAT MISSING FREE THROWS DOESN'T MATTER!!!! Doing anything good is better than doing anything bad.
That's not the point of "FTs no matta." It never was. It isn't now. It has been explained 100 times.
Quote from: Sultan of Kookiness on December 27, 2017, 10:03:33 PM
FT% didn't matter. FT rate did. Xavier attacks the basket and gets calls. Marquette shoots jumpers and doesn't. Basketball 101.
Quote from: Sultan of Kookiness on December 28, 2017, 08:29:02 AM
Oh for the love of Pete. NO ONE SAYS THAT MISSING FREE THROWS DOESN'T MATTER!!!! Doing anything good is better than doing anything bad.
That's not the point of "FTs no matta." It never was. It isn't now. It has been explained 100 times.
So free throw % mattered.
The team played well against a well coached , deep and talented Xavier squad. We missed a few key shots at the end and they didn't so we lost . We can build off this game. All four newcomers did well and that was the biggest positive. Froling has an excellent nose for where the rebounds are going to be, it is hard to teach that.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 28, 2017, 08:36:22 AM
So free throw % mattered.
It mattered as much as it usually does. Which is not much.
FT rate was much more of a factor. Howard shooting poorly was much more of a factor. Free throw % was not.
Quote from: Sultan of Kookiness on December 28, 2017, 08:46:17 AM
It mattered as much as it usually does. Which is not much.
FT rate was much more of a factor. Howard shooting poorly was much more of a factor. Free throw % was not.
eFG%? Marquette won that
Rebounding %? Tied
Turnover %? Marquette won that
So where was the game won or lost? At the line. And even with Xavier getting a higher free throw rate (something that is partially in the hands of the officials), if MU and Xavier shoot the same FT% (something entirely in the hands of the players at the line) Marquette wins the game.
So we can have a few posters pretend they have some superior knowledge of basketball because they can tell you that a team's season long free throw % isn't indicative of how good that team is (I don't think anybody will disagree with that, but for those who need to blurt it out loud every chance they get to feel better about themselves congrats to them), but to pretend FT % wasn't a factor in the game being discussed in this thread is laughable. It was literally the difference.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 28, 2017, 08:49:33 AM
eFG%? Marquette won that
Rebounding %? Tied
Turnover %? Marquette won that
So where was the game won or lost? At the line. And even with Xavier getting a higher free throw rate (something that is partially in the hands of the officials), if MU and Xavier shoot the same FT% (something entirely in the hands of the players at the line) Marquette wins the game.
So we can have a few posters pretend they have some superior knowledge of basketball because they can tell you that a team's season long free throw % isn't indicative of how good that team is (I don't think anybody will disagree with that, but for those who need to blurt it out loud every chance they get to feel better about themselves congrats to them), but to pretend FT % wasn't a factor in the game being discussed in this thread is laughable. It was literally the difference.
Give it up Wades. Neither you nor anyone else can compete with Sultan, who is never wrong. Just ask him.
The thing to me with look at FT makes and misses in a game is how the game would have changed based on those makes/misses....What would the score have been if Harry/Theo make 1 or 2 more with a minute left-How would X have played in that last minute based on that score? Easy to just say oh we missed this many free throws add it to the score and say OH WE WOULD HAVE WON if we made those...
Just not a realistic way to look at it to me. If we made 3 more FT's 5 more FT's the game changes, how X plays changes-Changing 1 variable to the game doesnt automatically mean MU wins-That 1 variable changing would lead to the whole game being changed.
We lost because of poor possessions/quick shots down the stretch and not enough Sam Hauser. I remember at least 2 of the plays down the stretch where Sam was just wide open at the 3 pt line calling for the ball.
Quote from: Clam Crowder on December 28, 2017, 08:58:05 AM
The thing to me with look at FT makes and misses in a game is how the game would have changed based on those makes/misses....What would the score have been if Harry/Theo make 1 or 2 more with a minute left-How would X have played in that last minute based on that score? Easy to just say oh we missed this many free throws add it to the score and say OH WE WOULD HAVE WON if we made those...
Just not a realistic way to look at it to me. If we made 3 more FT's 5 more FT's the game changes, how X plays changes-Changing 1 variable to the game doesnt automatically mean MU wins-That 1 variable changing would lead to the whole game being changed.
We lost because of poor possessions/quick shots down the stretch and not enough Sam Hauser. I remember at least 2 of the plays down the stretch where Sam was just wide open at the 3 pt line calling for the ball.
Yeah I was screaming for them to hit Sam open down the stretch, the dude's so money he would have drained them too. He's quickly moving up my list of favorites all time.
Quote from: tower912 on December 27, 2017, 09:47:17 PM
1. It sure as hell wasn't dull.
2. Macura is a punk. Nice flop to draw the tech. And so many other things. How did Duke miss on him?
3. Markus with two poor decisions late on drives. Dodged contact three times.
4. Cain and John look like they might be OK. Somebody needs to help Theo with his FT stroke. Cain taking minutes from Sacar.
5. It isn't like Marquette didn't have their chances. Possible steal for Sam turning into a three for X. Three missed layups for Markus. Decent looks for Rowsey.
6. Froling in the game at crunch time. Very little Heldt in the second half.
7. X is a top 10 team for a reason. Long, deep, experienced, without fear.
8. Free throws matta'd down the stretch.
9. A great game. A painful loss. In the end, Marquette had opportunities to make plays at winning time and didn't make them. Xavier did. Pretty simple.
1. No it wasn't dull
2. Macura is a punk approaching Defendork punkness
3. Yes, not a good game for Markus
4. Cain and John are more than OK. Yes, John needs work on FT.s. So does Anim and Froling
5. Yes, we had chances. Xavier is better
6. Froling missed two key FT's, and had a huge TO at crunch time. He is better than Heldt. Has a ways to go before he is a "difference maker"
7. Yes
8. Yes, FT's matter, let John and Froling know.
We have a ways to go to approach upper echelon BEast status.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 28, 2017, 08:49:33 AM
eFG%? Marquette won that
Rebounding %? Tied
Turnover %? Marquette won that
So where was the game won or lost? At the line. And even with Xavier getting a higher free throw rate (something that is partially in the hands of the officials), if MU and Xavier shoot the same FT% (something entirely in the hands of the players at the line) Marquette wins the game.
So we can have a few posters pretend they have some superior knowledge of basketball because they can tell you that a team's season long free throw % isn't indicative of how good that team is (I don't think anybody will disagree with that, but for those who need to blurt it out loud every chance they get to feel better about themselves congrats to them), but to pretend FT % wasn't a factor in the game being discussed in this thread is laughable. It was literally the difference.
No it was not "literally the difference." Many factors were the difference. One factor can't be pulled out and say "this is the reason why we lost." Basketball doesn't work that way.
But FT% didn't matter as much as FT rate did. If Marquette shoots the same FT% as X does, they score 4 more points. (Not accounting for missed front ends.) If Marquette has the same FT rate as X does, but shoot the same FT%, they score 7 more points.
I realize the math isn't perfect so people can blow holes in this if they wish. But that's the entire point of "FTs no matta." FT% was simply not as significant a factor as others.
My thoughts from last night:
1. A very, very entertaining game. Great crowd and exciting environment.
2. Xavier has a helluva of a team. They are going to be a tough out in March.
3. We needed to play flawless to win and even then it would be tough. Seemed like Xavier had ability to put it in overdrive whenever it looked like MU had chance to pull away.
4. Seldom bitch about refs, but MU was on short end of the calls last night. One of the poorer ref games I have seen in a long time.
5. Had a great time, but still think there is a lot of heavy lifting to do before we can compete the Xavier's on a nightly basis.
Quote from: Goose on December 28, 2017, 09:04:44 AM
My thoughts from last night:
1. A very, very entertaining game. Great crowd and exciting environment.
2. Xavier has a helluva of a team. They are going to be a tough out in March.
3. We needed to play flawless to win and even then it would be tough. Seemed like Xavier had ability to put it in overdrive whenever it looked like MU had chance to pull away.
4. Seldom bitch about refs, but MU was on short end of the calls last night. One of the poorer ref games I have seen in a long time.
5. Had a great time, but still think there is a lot of heavy lifting to do before we can compete the Xavier's on a nightly basis.
This year, yes. Add Joey, Morrow, and Bailey to the mix next year along with a year of improvement for everyone on the roster and we'll be competing for the BEast crown.
Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on December 28, 2017, 09:07:49 AM
This year, yes. Add Joey, Morrow, and Bailey to the mix next year along with a year of improvement for everyone on the roster and we'll be competing for the BEast crown.
Unless there's a PG in that mix, I don't see it.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 28, 2017, 09:18:56 AM
Unless there's a PG in that mix, I don't see it.
I have to agree, but lets face it, if Wojo can not get a grad transfer point something is wrong. Everything to sell to a point right now. Perfect situation.
Entertaining game, even though it wasn't the desired outcome. This freshman class, I believe, will be something really special. Cain was very impressive last night. I hope he can build on it and become a go-to rotation player as the season progresses. It's possible he may even take Anim's starting spot as we get deeper into BE play. Elliot and John have the look of four-year building blocks as well, and they will only get better with more experience and more PT. The challenge for Wojo and staff is their development year-to-year and not to have any significant regressions.
I think the biggest critique of Wojo and staff is the advancement and development of our younger players. Many of our younger freshmen players that get minutes appear to get lost as sophomores, with a few eventually transferring out (Carter, Cheatham, Cohen come to mind). Having said that, their development is strongly dependent on the players around them and how they compliment one another. I think next year's team will have an incredible amount of size and experience, along with young talent in Hauser/Bailey.
It can be hard to remain patient in year four of the Wojo era, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I have no doubt that this year's team will steal a game or two (like last year's Villanova game). Lots of basketball left this season.
Free throws are just the laziest difference to yell about. And because they are easy to point out, their importance gets overemphasized by the people looking for an easy thing to blame outcomes on.
Quote from: mayfairskatingrink on December 27, 2017, 10:05:10 PM
Markus needs to "win" a big game for MU, not just score 30 in a game they should win anyhow. Everyone is going to have an off-night, but Markus compounded things by playing stupid.
No chance MU gets into the tourney with all these home losses.
MU does not have to beat a top 10 team to get into the Dance. Given the youth of this team there will be considerable grow in the coming weeks. Froling will be integrated into the offense and Theo will continue to improve as well as Cain and Elliot. This team has the potential to be the best since Buzz's next to last season. I am very encouraged by what I see and how far we have come this year. We will not need to wait until next year if they continue to work hard.
Quote from: MUBurrow on December 28, 2017, 09:27:56 AM
Free throws are just the laziest difference to yell about. And because they are easy to point out, their importance gets overemphasized by the people looking for an easy thing to blame outcomes on.
Yup. Two of our worst FT shooters each missed a pair. So be it.
That's nowhere near as important as the fact that MU couldn't guard without fouling, X shot 61.5% from two, and MU's offense degraded to a bunch of dribbling and a heave from three.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 28, 2017, 09:40:22 AM
Yup. Two of our worst FT shooters each missed a pair. So be it.
That's nowhere near as important as the fact that MU couldn't guard without fouling, X shot 61.5% from two, and MU's offense degraded to a bunch of dribbling and a heave from three.
And despite all that, MU won the "most important factor," eFG%.
Quote from: Jockey on December 27, 2017, 11:08:21 PM
On average, you are right. But, in a close game, it is a big deal.
No. Fans just make it a big deal because for some reason they think free throws should be easier than they are. X shooting over 50% from the floor, us shooting under 50% from the floor, X grabbing 9 offensive boards, us giving up 10 turnovers, us only forcing 11 turnovers, and X getting to the line 10 more times than us were much bigger factors in why we lost. Us shooting 57% from the line? That's still a very efficient trip on offense.
FT% is always a factor, but always a small one. If we shot the league average from the line last night (~69%) we still would have lost by 2. If we shot our season average from the line last night (77%) we still would have lost by 1.
Xavier is better than Marquette. They were more aggressive, more poised and played better basketball down the stretch. X wanted to take away Hauser and they did. They were more than happy with Rowsey and Howard dribbling around and firing up contested shots.
When your two guards take 43 shots and have more TOs than assists, it's tough to win. Sure, Rowsey scored a bunch of points but he also took a lot of bad shots (as did Howard). There were multiple times where someone was open but Rowsey/Howard had his head down and was determined to get a shot off. That's got to change. It can work in non-conf games but MU's margin for error in the Big East is too thin to waste possessions with quick, forced shots. Rowsey had been doing pretty well with that lately, but last night Macura clearly got in his head. At the end of the day, Jamal Cain is the main reason why MU was in that game.
Move on and get ready for Georgetown. MU needs to win games like Saturday's if they want to have a shot at the NCAAT.
Also, for the players who played more than 15 minutes, Rowsey and Howard had the two lowest EFG% and the two highest Usage Rate. By far. That's not good.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 28, 2017, 08:49:33 AM
eFG%? Marquette won that
Rebounding %? Tied
Turnover %? Marquette won that
You are correct about this but your conclusion is incorrect.
This is a rare game where one team won 3/4 factors....and the 3 most important factors no less....but still lost.
eFG%: MU 57.2% X 56.6%
TO%: MU 13.6% X 14.8%
OR%: MU 30%, X 29%
FTR: MU 20.3%, X 39.3%
MU barely won the first three factors, each by 1.2% or less. And then got dominated by X in FTR.
As I said in a previous post, if Marquette shoots their season average from the FT line they still lose by 1.If MU got to the line more or let X get to the line less, they win this thing, possibly by several points.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 28, 2017, 10:56:52 AM
You are correct about this but your conclusion is incorrect.
This is a rare game where one team won 3/4 factors....and the 3 most important factors no less....but still lost.
eFG%: MU 57.2% X 56.6%
TO%: MU 13.6% X 14.8%
OR%: MU 30%, X 29%
FTR: MU 20.3%, X 39.3%
MU barely won the first three factors, each by 1.2% or less. And then got dominated by X in FTR.
As I said in a previous post, if Marquette shoots their season average from the FT line they still lose by 1.If MU got to the line more or let X get to the line less, they win this thing, possibly by several points.
But all of that is partially in the control of people not on Marquette's team. Standing at the free throw line is entirely in Marquette's control. It's the exact same shot for Marquette as it is for Xavier, whereas not all field goal attempts are exactly the same for both teams, not all calls are exactly the same for both teams, etc.
Marquette had a chance to shoot free throws just as well as Xavier and didn't.
Free throw percentage mattered.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 28, 2017, 10:59:54 AM
But all of that is partially in the control of people not on Marquette's team. Standing at the free throw line is entirely in Marquette's control. It's the exact same shot for Marquette as it is for Xavier, whereas not all field goal attempts are exactly the same for both teams, not all calls are exactly the same for both teams, etc.
Marquette had a chance to shoot free throws just as well as Xavier and didn't.
Free throw percentage mattered.
FT% always matters. Just never very much. But this has been explained to you see feel free to have the last word.
Quote from: Sultan of Kookiness on December 28, 2017, 09:00:51 AM
But that's the entire point of "FTs no matta."
FTs no matta is a dumb statement. Yes, there is a point behind it, but on it's face the statement is wrong.
It was annoying enough to have JB arguing it. It's even more annoying to have you beating the drum. FWIW.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 28, 2017, 11:08:09 AM
FTs no matta is a dumb statement. Yes, there is a point behind it, but on it's face the statement is wrong.
It was annoying enough to have JB arguing it. It's even more annoying to have you beating the drum. FWIW.
Well I rarely say it. It's just a stupid catch phrase. I'm simply arguing the point behind it.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 28, 2017, 11:08:09 AM
FTs no matta is a dumb statement. Yes, there is a point behind it, but on it's face the statement is wrong.
It was annoying enough to have JB arguing it. It's even more annoying to have you beating the drum. FWIW.
Isn't the point of 'FTs no matta' both to highlight the relatively small impact it has on outcomes, but also to make fun of the strange, vaguely moralistic way we talk about FTs? See:
QuoteBut all of that is partially in the control of people not on Marquette's team. Standing at the free throw line is entirely in Marquette's control. It's the exact same shot for Marquette as it is for Xavier, whereas not all field goal attempts are exactly the same for both teams, not all calls are exactly the same for both teams, etc.
Marquette had a chance to shoot free throws just as well as Xavier and didn't.
Focusing on missed FTs, and assigning some greater basketball failing to missing FTs than to other basketball plays seems lazy to me. Because its a discrete, unopposed play with the clock stopped, its easy for us to focus on them more than the third offensive set in five straight minutes of run time. But the whole point of advanced stats is to overcome these attention biases to help highlight what really matters. Sure it would be nice if the FTs went in, but it doesn't deserve the disproportionate place it holds in our collective memory. If you're Theo John, shooting 75% from the line is a much taller hill to climb than beasting 14 rebounds per 40. Its just lazy to drop "he should make his free throws because there's no one else out there, and if he did, we woulda won!"
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400988549
Box score. Heldt + Anim, 28 minutes, 0 pts. Theo, 9 minutes, one rebound. X wins rebounds 37-34, so basically a push. MU had fewer turnovers and 15 threes to 7. The only category with a clear advantage for X was free throws.
Quote from: MUBurrow on December 28, 2017, 11:25:56 AM
Isn't the point of 'FTs no matta' both to highlight the relatively small impact it has on outcomes, but also to make fun of the strange, vaguely moralistic way we talk about FTs?
I think it's easier to make fun of those guys that can't handle folks talking about making or missing a few FTS to alter the course of a game. I mean really, making or missing a few FTs WOULD have altered the course of the game (better or worse, who knows!). A lecture about FT rate doesn't matter, no matter how much it's point is accurate in the sense of the four factors.
#FTRateLectureNoMatta
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on December 28, 2017, 01:20:48 AM
Wonder if is the beginning of the end for Matty, hardly saw any minutes in the second half.
The kid works hard and has done everything that has been asked of him in 2.5 years, but Theo keeps improving every game, Froling is starting to get his feet underneath him and there is an even bigger logjam in the front court next season.
Matt had a stat line of zeros and a few 1's. Hard to see how he is not going to be option 3 soon.
QuoteMatt had a stat line of zeros and a few 1's. Hard to see how he is not going to be option 3 soon.
Unfortunately for Matt he provides zero offensive threat. The high screens the defenders aren't worried about him. With Froling he can shoot the three and Theo has is gotten more comfortable on the offensive side of the ball as well.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 28, 2017, 11:41:26 AM
I think it's easier to make fun of those guys that can't handle folks talking about making or missing a few FTS to alter the course of a game. I mean really, making or missing a few FTs WOULD have altered the course of the game (better or worse, who knows!). A lecture about FT rate doesn't matter, no matter how much it's point is accurate in the sense of the four factors.
#FTRateLectureNoMatta
That's fair. I don't have an issue when it sticks to "shoot, woulda been nice to hit a couple more freebies." But there just isn't much to say about it beyond that. Pretty quick we get into nonsensical DO WE PRACTICE THESE OR WHAT? and Scoop is more full of Gene Hackmans than usual. Given a choice between 'FTs no matta' and 'what should Wojo do about our FT problem,' I'll take FT no matta every day and twice on days after losses to top 10 teams.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 28, 2017, 07:53:44 AM
I have never seen a defense that breaks down so quickly as ours - we our poor both on and off the ball. We may win a couple of shootouts against good teams but we won't be one of them until we get a serviceable D scheme in place.
This is what concerns me about Big East play and the tournament. Good teams will expose the sh*t out of these defensive weaknesses. We won't win shootouts when the shots aren't fallin'
Bunch of us must hqve the day off, a'ainna?
Man, if we just could have scored more points than them. Bet that was the key to the game.
Quote from: MUBurrow on December 28, 2017, 11:51:57 AM
Pretty quick we get into nonsensical DO WE PRACTICE THESE OR WHAT? and Scoop is more full of Gene Hackmans than usual. Given a choice between 'FTs no matta' and 'what should Wojo do about our FT problem,' I'll take FT no matta every day and twice on days after losses to top 10 teams.
This is a good point! Why isn't Wojo teaching the guys how to draw fouls at a decent rate!?!?!?
:)
QuoteThis is a good point! Why isn't Wojo teaching the guys how to draw fouls at a decent rate!?!?!?
Not teaching it good enough! Rowsey needs another black eye!
I think most of you are missing the most important point here.
We hung with a Top Ten team for close to 40 minutes, leading a significant portion of the time, even though two of our three best players were having off games. And it wasn't because Xavier was playing poorly, either.
How many of you would have predicted this last September? Unless you are going to argue that Xavier is completely overrated, that means our team is the real deal.
Quote from: warriorchick on December 28, 2017, 12:59:23 PM
I think most of you are missing the most important point here.
We hung with a Top Ten team for close to 40 minutes, leading a significant portion of the time, even though two of our three best players were having off games. And it wasn't because Xavier was playing poorly, either.
How many of you would have predicted this last September? Unless you are going to argue that Xavier is completely overrated, that means our team is the real deal.
Agreed. If Howard, Hauser, and Rowsey are all "on" at the same time, we beat anyone in the nation regardless of how bad our D is. Hopefully it happens vs. Nova or X, or at the BET, or in the NCAA...
Atta boy awards aplenty, hey?
Quote from: real chili 83 on December 28, 2017, 11:53:54 AM
Bunch of us must hqve the day off, a'ainna?
Hey! I'm working here! Important engineering stuff!!
Quote from: warriorchick on December 28, 2017, 12:59:23 PM
I think most of you are missing the most important point here.
We hung with a Top Ten team for close to 40 minutes, leading a significant portion of the time, even though two of our three best players were having off games. And it wasn't because Xavier was playing poorly, either.
How many of you would have predicted this last September? Unless you are going to argue that Xavier is completely overrated, that means our team is the real deal.
Earlier this season, LaSalle played Villanova close, led at halftime, tied the game with about 5 minutes to play but lost a tough one. LaSalle is 6-7 with losses to Drexel and Towson on their resume. Is Villanova simply overrated or does that one game not really mean a whole lot in the big picture?
IOW, it means nothing for Marquette to "hang with" a top ten team. Just because they weren't completely outclassed by Xavier doesn't mean MU is lurking as a sleeping giant or close to X's level. It simply means that they lost to a good team.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 28, 2017, 01:38:32 PM
Earlier this season, LaSalle played Villanova close, led at halftime, tied the game with about 5 minutes to play but lost a tough one. LaSalle is 6-7 with losses to Drexel and Towson on their resume. Is Villanova simply overrated or does that one game not really mean a whole lot in the big picture?
IOW, it means nothing for Marquette to "hang with" a top ten team. Just because they weren't completely outclassed by Xavier doesn't mean MU is lurking as a sleeping giant or close to X's level. It simply means that they lost to a good team.
So tell me: what is the proper way to evaluate a team if you don't use their performance against other teams?
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ll3n8mdciG1qe4q56.gif)
Quote from: warriorchick on December 28, 2017, 12:59:23 PM
I think most of you are missing the most important point here.
We hung with a Top Ten team for close to 40 minutes, leading a significant portion of the time, even though two of our three best players were having off games. And it wasn't because Xavier was playing poorly, either.
How many of you would have predicted this last September? Unless you are going to argue that Xavier is completely overrated, that means our team is the real deal.
MU led for 9:26. While we had the lead it certainly was significant.
Quote from: warriorchick on December 28, 2017, 01:50:37 PM
So tell me: what is the proper way to evaluate a team if you don't use their performance against other teams?
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ll3n8mdciG1qe4q56.gif)
Don't read too much into one game. Last season, Marquette beat the #1 team in the country then lost 4 of 5, including 2 blowout losses to sub-.500 teams.
Marquette played a close game at home against #6 but they lost. The team can learn from that game but it's not like that one game means that MU is any closer to being a top-tier Big East team than they were prior to the game. Sure, I guess maybe it'll be a springboard and MU will right all their wrongs and go on a long winning streak as a result. More likely though, it just tells us what we already know: Marquette isn't as good as Xavier.
Xavier knows how to close out an opponent and win. MU still learnin'. Betta question is how good is ASU four years inta der new coach, ai na?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 28, 2017, 10:34:35 AM
Xavier is better than Marquette. They were more aggressive, more poised and played better basketball down the stretch. X wanted to take away Hauser and they did. They were more than happy with Rowsey and Howard dribbling around and firing up contested shots.
When your two guards take 43 shots and have more TOs than assists, it's tough to win. Sure, Rowsey scored a bunch of points but he also took a lot of bad shots (as did Howard). There were multiple times where someone was open but Rowsey/Howard had his head down and was determined to get a shot off. That's got to change. It can work in non-conf games but MU's margin for error in the Big East is too thin to waste possessions with quick, forced shots. Rowsey had been doing pretty well with that lately, but last night Macura clearly got in his head. At the end of the day, Jamal Cain is the main reason why MU was in that game.
Move on and get ready for Georgetown. MU needs to win games like Saturday's if they want to have a shot at the NCAAT.
Agreed. Rowsey can shoot and score, but also takes stupid 30 foot shots early in the clock. That has to be handled by "coaching" which Wojo needs to take care of.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 28, 2017, 02:33:00 PM
Xavier knows how to close out an opponent and win. MU still learnin'. Betta question is how good is ASU four years inta der new coach, ai na?
This is year three of the Hurley era not four, and the first 2 years were about as bad as Wojo's first.
This year they're a better version of us (#4 offense / #121 defense vs. #15 O / #158 D), and next year they'll likely take a step back after Holder/Evans/Justice graduate while we'll be taking a large step forward. So I'll wait for year 4 to be complete at both schools, but I bet ASU will be in worse shape than us after 4 years, not better.
Heldt is not a Big East player. He should get minimal minutes going forward and only be used for foul trouble or to send a message if the starters aren't playing hard. I really hope he isn't starting next game as it's a waste of minutes at the 5.
Quote from: Goose on December 28, 2017, 09:04:44 AM
My thoughts from last night:
1. A very, very entertaining game. Great crowd and exciting environment.
2. Xavier has a helluva of a team. They are going to be a tough out in March.
3. We needed to play flawless to win and even then it would be tough. Seemed like Xavier had ability to put it in overdrive whenever it looked like MU had chance to pull away.
4. Seldom bitch about refs, but MU was on short end of the calls last night. One of the poorer ref games I have seen in a long time.
5. Had a great time, but still think there is a lot of heavy lifting to do before we can compete the Xavier's on a nightly basis.
Good observations, and I agree with most.
I will pick a nit at #3. We didn't need to play "flawless" to win this basketball game. If the leading scorer in the Big East had even an OK game, we win.
Quote from: MU82 on December 28, 2017, 04:53:56 PM
Good observations, and I agree with most.
I will pick a nit at #3. We didn't need to play "flawless" to win this basketball game. If the leading scorer in the Big East had even an OK game, we win.
Have to also credit the Xavier defense, which caused MH to force things and try to dominate possessions. Meanwhile, Sam, who was close a triple double, only had a usage rate of 12%. In all of MU's losses, Sam has been 20% or lower. With his efficiency, he needs to be in the mid 20s. Mack said post-game, they limited 2 of the Big 3 stars, so that was good enough.
End of the day, MU's Frosh kept the game close. X was giving them their looks and they took them.
Quote from: Sultan of Kookiness on December 27, 2017, 09:56:22 PM
Xavier really keyed on Sam. Wouldn't help off of him at any cost. Essentially the sole problem to Sam's game is that he struggles creating his own shot, and if our guards can't get him the ball, well...there ya go.
Not really, MU figured out that Cain was open in the corner.
Quote from: tower912 on December 27, 2017, 09:58:15 PM
Which is a second reason I struggle seeing him in the NBA. 6'7 and can't create his own shot. And doesn't shoot as well as Korver.
Sam is 6'8" and creates his own shot often. Just not enough in this game.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 28, 2017, 05:23:11 PM
Have to also credit the Xavier defense, which caused MH to force things and try to dominate possessions. Meanwhile, Sam, who was close a triple double, only had a usage rate of 12%. In all of MU's losses, Sam has been 20% or lower. With his efficiency, he needs to be in the mid 20s. Mack said post-game, they limited 2 of the Big 3 stars, so that was good enough.
End of the day, MU's Frosh kept the game close. X was giving them their looks and they took them.
Exactly. There is a reason Markus and Sam played below their season average.........X.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 28, 2017, 02:33:00 PM
Xavier knows how to close out an opponent and win. MU still learnin'. Betta question is how good is ASU four years inta der new coach, ai na?
Ouch!
Quote from: warriorchick on December 28, 2017, 12:59:23 PM
I think most of you are missing the most important point here.
We hung with a Top Ten team for close to 40 minutes, leading a significant portion of the time, even though two of our three best players were having off games. And it wasn't because Xavier was playing poorly, either.
How many of you would have predicted this last September? Unless you are going to argue that Xavier is completely overrated, that means our team is the real deal.
Amen Sister Chick.
I wished we had made a few corrections and won. But we lost by 4 to the sixth ranked team in the nation. I see a vastly improved team that, while we still have a way to go, we are closer to where we want to be. Period.
Quote from: WE R FINAL FOUR on December 28, 2017, 08:58:27 PM
Exactly. There is a reason Markus and Sam played below their season average.........X.
There's a real bad "must have been their X-factor" joke in there somewhere, but I'm not going to be the one to make that joke.
Because I hope I'm hoping it's not actually a joke that their X-factor is X. Because that would effectively put them on course to finish 18-1 (and a 2 seed) going forward.
So laugh it up. Just get ready for G-Town.