Riffing on Tower's season outlook post. Can Wojo consistently build a team across 4 classes?
With some notable exceptions (Reddick, Laettner) Duke's model is a thin bench of 6 to 7, 1 or 2 year guys reloaded every year. I assume Duke's recruiting pitch is "you're going to be a feature player, and we'll send you to the NBA"
Given our wave of mid-season transfers, I wonder if since this model is all Wojo knows we're not falling into the same pattern - with the notable exception we can't pull in 5 stars like Duke. Sure we'll land a few 4 years studs (Sam, maybe Markus) but if we're telling every recruit "you're going to be a star" we're going to continue to see players transfer out in year 2 and year 3, with the result being an 8 man bench where the last three are inexperienced/playing out of their league. It seems like MU's path to success is building solid, four year players, and a 7 through 10 bench of solid role players who know and are happy to contribute in that role. It doesn't seem like we're doing that. The only role player that seems to be developing in that manner is Heldt, but the problem is, for whatever reason, we don't have a true BE starting center so that Heldt can be the 7th man, 10-15 minute spell guy, who plays some D and gives a few hard fouls.
Maybe this is just nostalgia for a different era. Maybe a 4-class team is a dead idea and the only hope is to reload every year. But if that's the case, then Wojo is failing that test.
"Help is on the way next season" is becoming a tired refrain. If we can't develop/retain any of that help, I don't see us returning to consistent NCAA appearances (if not runs).
I know many of you love "the process" but I'm only interested in the results. I don't really care the path to get there (as long as it's ethical and legal). We're still on track. Last night was an Ugly W, but those count too. And maybe those results will continue to come (the Freshmen grow up quick, Harry somehow meets the savior expectations everyone has for him, Markus gets out of this slump and shots 50% from 3 in conference play, maybe an injury curse plagues every other team in the BE.
It's too early to embrace Tower's pessimism and bail on the season now and lower our expectations now (Tower is the ultimate pessimist - keep your expectations low and you'll always be right or pleasantly surprised), but if we miss the NCAAs that's on Wojo and no one else. Not a "fire Wojo now" situation, but one that should certainly have his seat warm next year. If we miss the next two NCAAs he should be gone.
Agree, the whole " respect the process" thing is getting old. If Wojo can't get a team into the tournament next year or the year after then Marquette needs to find some one who can.
This year however is a bit different, We lost seniors last year and now Hanni. I fall more inline with Tower and believe this year will be a transition year.
What I have heard is that Wojo is very direct and honest with players about their role. I doubt he is telling kids that they will be stars. I do believe that some recruits are told that they will need to earn their role and they assume that they are better than they are and will earn the role no problem. Most high major players are used to being the best player on their team. Kids like Sam and Sacar are invaluable because they are willing to accept the role that benefits the team, not the individual.
The concept of a four year team is not dead, but it is more difficult to achieve than it used to be. There were close to 900 transfers last offseason. There are many reasons for that but nowadays if you aren't happy with your role, you transfer. Wojo has to get better in either a) getting players to accept their roles or b) finding players who already accept their roles (see earlier point about Sam and Sacar). It is also harder without a track record of success. As others have said, it is easier for players to accept being a role player on a top seeded team than a rebuilding bubble team. Wojo has to get it done by end of next season or he will be facing an uphill battle.
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on November 28, 2017, 02:09:10 PM
Agree, the whole " respect the process" thing is getting old. If Wojo can't get a team into the tournament next year or the year after then Marquette needs to find some one who can.
I think 99% of Scoopers agree with this. To me, the NCAA was always a difficult achievement for this team. Next year and the year after, it should be an expectation. In fact by Howard and Sam's senior season, they should be contending for the BE title and at least the S16,
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 28, 2017, 02:10:10 PM
The concept of a four year team is not dead, but it is more difficult to achieve than it used to be. There were close to 900 transfers last offseason. There are many reasons for that but nowadays if you aren't happy with your role, you transfer. Wojo has to get better in either a) getting players to accept their roles or b) finding players who already accept their roles (see earlier point about Sam and Sacar). It is also harder without a track record of success. As others have said, it is easier for players to accept being a role player on a top seeded team than a rebuilding bubble team. Wojo has to get it done by end of next season or he will be facing an uphill battle.
The fundamental problem with the above (not your comment but the situation) is that Wojo was hired explicitly to change that. That's why Martin and Howland were never going to get the job. That's a problem.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 28, 2017, 02:10:10 PM
What I have heard is that Wojo is very direct and honest with players about their role. I doubt he is telling kids that they will be stars. I do believe that some recruits are told that they will need to earn their role and they assume that they are better than they are and will earn the role no problem. Most high major players are used to being the best player on their team. Kids like Sam and Sacar are invaluable because they are willing to accept the role that benefits the team, not the individual.
The concept of a four year team is not dead, but it is more difficult to achieve than it used to be. There were close to 900 transfers last offseason. There are many reasons for that but nowadays if you aren't happy with your role, you transfer. Wojo has to get better in either a) getting players to accept their roles or b) finding players who already accept their roles (see earlier point about Sam and Sacar). It is also harder without a track record of success. As others have said, it is easier for players to accept being a role player on a top seeded team than a rebuilding bubble team. Wojo has to get it done by end of next season or he will be facing an uphill battle.
Yeah, but there's *the truth* and then there's THE TRUTH. Maybe high major recruiting doesn't work with the pitch "you'll get 5-10 minutes as a frosh and soph, and if you work hard you can be a starter in year 3 and 4" but surely this is where balancing recruiting between "instant impact" guys and projects is a balance. And maybe we're doing that to some extent with players like Matt and Ike and Sacar. But I'd still like to see those guys as solid, 15-20 minute reserves this year rather than being forced into key and starting roles.
It's tough when a piece you think is there (Haani) falls out, and there's no real way to adjust mid-season, but I can't help thinking Duane would have been a key piece on this team this year as a 20 minute reserve 6 man. We NEEDED a guard to take it to the rack - and some senior experience coming off the bench. Maybe Wojo thought with Haani we didn't need Duane, but his 25 minutes getting 12 and 4 for the 9th ranked team in the country look pretty good right now.
Quote from: 1SE on November 28, 2017, 02:40:22 PM
Yeah, but there's *the truth* and then there's THE TRUTH. Maybe high major recruiting doesn't work with the pitch "you'll get 5-10 minutes as a frosh and soph, and if you work hard you can be a starter in year 3 and 4" but surely this is where balancing recruiting between "instant impact" guys and projects is a balance. And maybe we're doing that to some extent with players like Matt and Ike and Sacar. But I'd still like to see those guys as solid, 15-20 minute reserves this year rather than being forced into key and starting roles.
It's tough when a piece you think is there (Haani) falls out, and there's no real way to adjust mid-season, but I can't help thinking Duane would have been a key piece on this team this year as a 20 minute reserve 6 man. We NEEDED a guard to take it to the rack - and some senior experience coming off the bench. Maybe Wojo thought with Haani we didn't need Duane, but his 25 minutes getting 12 and 4 for the 9th ranked team in the country look pretty good right now.
Duane wanted to get away from home and he earned that right. Wojo wasn't going to stop him.
Some of the other transfers we've seen - I'm surprised due to the situations. Seems like such questionable decisions from otherwise level headed kids..like how do not convince Haanif that he's making a mistake? It makes no sense for any basketball related reasons.
from reading into the comments, I have a feeling Cheatham is leaving for similar reasons to Carter. They say he's leaving the program for personal reasons. He said nothing about leaving for a better opportunity. He always raved about Cheatham, even on off-nights.
I feel this entire thread is the remembrance of this non-existent nostalgic world of MU basketball. MU has been struggling with transfers way before Wojo. If you look at all the last three coaches they all struggled with this. In Crean's first three years, we had surprise transfers like Howard, ODB and others. In Buzz's years the same happened with the likes of McKay and Maymon. Wojo has struggled with transfers like Cohen and HC. Transfer didn't just magically appear under Wojo as everyone seems to think. Wojo didn't just start telling kids they were going to be stars when every coach before him didn't.
Scout has a list of our recruiting classes that goes back to 2003 and we have had more transfers than players staying for their full eligibility. This doesn't include transfers into the program nor does it include players that "committed" but never showed (Roseboro, Newbill)
2003 - 1 of four stayed four years
2004 - 1 of three stayed four years 1 Juco used full eligibility
2005 - 3 of 5 stayed 4yrs and 1 Juco used full eligibility
2006 - 2 of 3 stayed 4 yrs
2007 - 0 of 2 stayed 4 yrs
2008 - 3 of 3 used full eligibility (Butler and Fulce)
2009 - 3 of 6 stayed
2010 - 3 of 6 stayed
2011 - 2 of 3 stayed though 1 tried to transfer and stayed. Mayo was kicked out.
2012 - 0 of 2 stayed
2013 - 1 of 5 stayed
2014 - 0 of 1 stayed
2015 - 2 of 5 currently on roster
2016 - 3 of 3 currently on roster (one hasn't shown up)*
2017 - 4 of 4 still on roster*
*Not included in the counts as we don't know yet but if they all stay then that is something in Wojo's favor which makes everyone's point moot.
The point of this since 2003 more than half of MU's roster did not stay four years. The last two coaches had trademarked words for the number of transfers under them (Creaned and Buzzcut). Transfers are a part of them game now and it has no correlation to what one coach said or didn't say relative to the other coaches.
I think what we are seeing now is multiple fold:
1. Coaching Change - Usually, you see a loss of players due to a new coach arriving.
2. Coaching Change - When you are starting your program you go after the best players you can get. When better players are recruited later you see some loss.
3. Transfers are a part of life
I am not in the fire Wojo crowd this year or next as he needs time to get the program moving in the right directions. His first two years were washes as he had nothing. Last year he got to the NCAA. Had Wojo come in with the same situation was Buzz (3 Sr Studs, and a Junior Stud) and had the results as Wojo did in his first two years we would be having a different conversation. I don't think people also understand the negative impact the changes to the big east has had.
I don't love the process either and am more focused on results. Whether that is Buzz with JUCOs and dancing on the court or Wojo with "the process". . . Just get us to the tournament and at least top 25 consistent. It seems like we had a good run with the switchables.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on November 28, 2017, 06:56:51 PM
Duane wanted to get away from home and he earned that right. Wojo wasn't going to stop him.
Some of the other transfers we've seen - I'm surprised due to the situations. Seems like such questionable decisions from otherwise level headed kids..like how do not convince Haanif that he's making a mistake? It makes no sense for any basketball related reasons.
Sure, I get these guys are making the decisions they think are best for themselves. I'm just saying maybe Wojo could have made more of a pitch to keep him here. It's hard for me to see how a guy who is a major contributor at a top-10 team couldn't have been sufficiently featured at a team that is going to the bubbly at best. Watching his highlight real from the USC game (which admittedly doesn't feature any turnovers) shows a pretty good approximation of the guard we are wishing we had right now.
Not that he was the be all, end all. But we would be a much better team right now with him on the roster.
Quote from: 1SE on November 28, 2017, 02:40:22 PM
Yeah, but there's *the truth* and then there's THE TRUTH.
(https://frinkiac.com/video/S09E09/ujbOj60Rz6BRKHrWmH-Gr--IYPw=.gif)
Sorry, couldn't resist
Quote from: BallBoy on November 28, 2017, 11:06:19 PM
2003 - 1 of four stayed four years
2004 - 1 of three stayed four years 1 Juco used full eligibility
2005 - 3 of 5 stayed 4yrs and 1 Juco used full eligibility
2006 - 2 of 3 stayed 4 yrs
2007 - 0 of 2 stayed 4 yrs
2008 - 3 of 3 used full eligibility (Butler and Fulce)
2009 - 3 of 6 stayed
2010 - 3 of 6 stayed
2011 - 2 of 3 stayed though 1 tried to transfer and stayed. Mayo was kicked out.
2012 - 0 of 2 stayed
2013 - 1 of 5 stayed
2014 - 0 of 1 stayed
2015 - 2 of 5 currently on roster
2016 - 3 of 3 currently on roster (one hasn't shown up)*
2017 - 4 of 4 still on roster*
*Not included in the counts as we don't know yet but if they all stay then that is something in Wojo's favor which makes everyone's point moot.
Great post.
Quote from: The Deane Team on November 29, 2017, 07:57:49 AM
(https://frinkiac.com/video/S09E09/ujbOj60Rz6BRKHrWmH-Gr--IYPw=.gif)
Sorry, couldn't resist
Dear God how the Simpsons miss Phil Hartman.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on November 28, 2017, 06:56:51 PM
Seems like such questionable decisions from otherwise level headed kids..like how do not convince Haanif that he's making a mistake? It makes no sense for any basketball related reasons.
Well, maybe that's because he's transferring for reasons not related to basketball?
Setting aside conspiracy theories and what not and assuming everyone is telling the truth, how (and why) do you convince a kid to put a few months of basketball eligibility ahead of his family?
Quote from: BallBoy on November 28, 2017, 11:06:19 PM
Scout has a list of our recruiting classes that goes back to 2003 and we have had more transfers than players staying for their full eligibility. This doesn't include transfers into the program nor does it include players that "committed" but never showed (Roseboro, Newbill)
2003 - 1 of four stayed four years
2004 - 1 of three stayed four years 1 Juco used full eligibility
2005 - 3 of 5 stayed 4yrs and 1 Juco used full eligibility
2006 - 2 of 3 stayed 4 yrs
2007 - 0 of 2 stayed 4 yrs
2008 - 3 of 3 used full eligibility (Butler and Fulce)
2009 - 3 of 6 stayed
2010 - 3 of 6 stayed
2011 - 2 of 3 stayed though 1 tried to transfer and stayed. Mayo was kicked out.
2012 - 0 of 2 stayed
2013 - 1 of 5 stayed
2014 - 0 of 1 stayed
2015 - 2 of 5 currently on roster
2016 - 3 of 3 currently on roster (one hasn't shown up)*
2017 - 4 of 4 still on roster*
*Not included in the counts as we don't know yet but if they all stay then that is something in Wojo's favor which makes everyone's point moot.
The point of this since 2003 more than half of MU's roster did not stay four years. The last two coaches had trademarked words for the number of transfers under them (Creaned and Buzzcut). Transfers are a part of them game now and it has no correlation to what one coach said or didn't say relative to the other coaches.
Thank you for the data based dose of perspective. Transfers are the new normal.
Quote from: 1SE on November 29, 2017, 01:34:39 AM
Sure, I get these guys are making the decisions they think are best for themselves. I'm just saying maybe Wojo could have made more of a pitch to keep him here. It's hard for me to see how a guy who is a major contributor at a top-10 team couldn't have been sufficiently featured at a team that is going to the bubbly at best. Watching his highlight real from the USC game (which admittedly doesn't feature any turnovers) shows a pretty good approximation of the guard we are wishing we had right now.
Not that he was the be all, end all. But we would be a much better team right now with him on the roster.
Nobody argues that Duane wouldn't have been a contributor this year.
But ultimately he looked at the roster and decided he didn't want to be a guy coming off the bench 15-20 minutes a night. He has every right to make that choice.
As for Wojo's pitch, you're assuming that either a) Wojo didn't make a pitch and b) the "right" pitch would have changed Duane's mind. Both of which are likely inaccurate.
Hi all.
Long time reader, first time poster.
I understand the concern that many have of us being young again, and while I believe that Haanif leaving the program in an off the court issue it does now mean that Matt currently has the most games played in a Marquette jersey, which isn't ideal. Therefore I looked at the roster for the remainder of this year and next year in an attempt to determine the reasons that players would want to stay rather than leave. Understanding that at any time a non-basketball issue may arise and force someone's hand. Looking at the roster I categorized the players into four groups.
Group one:
Markus. Sam
Already focal points of the offense, only way they leave is if either a) leave for the NBA which I don't think is likely, or b) MU gets nabbed by the FBI in which case we would have far bigger problems and I think that is even less likely than a.
Group Two:
Ed. Sacar. Harry. Ike
All of these players have sat out a year either from redshirting or transferring. I know transfers as a whole have been on the rise the past decade, but I feel like a low number of players transfer twice, and the majority of the 6 year players go the Otule route. That rules out traditional transfer, and leaves a grad transfer possibility, and grad transfers generally are easier to adjust to.
Group Three:
Matt. Theo. Jamal. Greg
With the exception of Matt, the three freshman will be getting plenty of minutes to keep them happy, and if Matt were to transfer it would be to a lower major, ie. he's not going to get a better gig anywhere else, and he's getting a lot of minutes.
Group Four:
Brendan. Joey
Brendan could easily fit into group two after his mission, not wanting to be away from the game any longer than he already has. The way the Joey recruitment went implies that playing with Sam is a big deal to him, so that should lock him in for two years. If he is as good/better than advertised he could leave after his sophomore year, but if that were the case we would have just had two very successful seasons, and far fewer people would be questioning Wojo's ability to keep players.
All in all, unless something comes from way out of left field, the roster turnaround looks like it will have fewer transfers than recent years and we will hopefully be able to have a deep experienced team going forward.
Quote from: Its DJOver on November 29, 2017, 11:09:41 AM
Hi all.
Long time reader, first time poster.
I understand the concern that many have of us being young again, and while I believe that Haanif leaving the program in an off the court issue it does now mean that Matt currently has the most games played in a Marquette jersey, which isn't ideal. Therefore I looked at the roster for the remainder of this year and next year in an attempt to determine the reasons that players would want to stay rather than leave. Understanding that at any time a non-basketball issue may arise and force someone's hand. Looking at the roster I categorized the players into four groups.
Group one:
Markus. Sam
Already focal points of the offense, only way they leave is if either a) leave for the NBA which I don't think is likely, or b) MU gets nabbed by the FBI in which case we would have far bigger problems and I think that is even less likely than a.
Group Two:
Ed. Sacar. Harry. Ike
All of these players have sat out a year either from redshirting or transferring. I know transfers as a whole have been on the rise the past decade, but I feel like a low number of players transfer twice, and the majority of the 6 year players go the Otule route. That rules out traditional transfer, and leaves a grad transfer possibility, and grad transfers generally are easier to adjust to.
Group Three:
Matt. Theo. Jamal. Greg
With the exception of Matt, the three freshman will be getting plenty of minutes to keep them happy, and if Matt were to transfer it would be to a lower major, ie. he's not going to get a better gig anywhere else, and he's getting a lot of minutes.
Group Four:
Brendan. Joey
Brendan could easily fit into group two after his mission, not wanting to be away from the game any longer than he already has. The way the Joey recruitment went implies that playing with Sam is a big deal to him, so that should lock him in for two years. If he is as good/better than advertised he could leave after his sophomore year, but if that were the case we would have just had two very successful seasons, and far fewer people would be questioning Wojo's ability to keep players.
All in all, unless something comes from way out of left field, the roster turnaround looks like it will have fewer transfers than recent years and we will hopefully be able to have a deep experienced team going forward.
Thanks for the solid analysis.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 29, 2017, 10:19:08 AM
Well, maybe that's because he's transferring for reasons not related to basketball?
Setting aside conspiracy theories and what not and assuming everyone is telling the truth, how (and why) do you convince a kid to put a few months of basketball eligibility ahead of his family?
Watch Wojo's EIU post gamer. He says Haani is leaving for personal reasons. But his strange ending to his Haani comments makes me think it was just HC's excuse. He almost chuckled when he said he wishes good health on those important to HC.
But yes....if there is a legitimate health concern with someone in his family...I agree. Tough to convince him otherwise. But its more than a few months of eligibility. He burned a full season.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on November 29, 2017, 11:19:44 AM
Watch Wojo's EIU post gamer. He says Sacar is leaving for personal reasons.
Scoop Hiroshima!
Man, we went from "damn we are a tourney team" over thanksgiving to "Marquette may never win a game again" a few days later.
Maybe we do the whole "wait and see" thing? I dunno. These swings are giving me vertigo.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on November 29, 2017, 11:19:44 AM
Watch Wojo's EIU post gamer. He says Haani is leaving for personal reasons. But his strange ending to his Haani comments makes me think it was just HC's excuse. He almost chuckled when he said he wishes good health on those important to HC.
Everyone is lying for no apparent reason and the evidence of this is a mysterious
almost chuckle.
OK.
Just like everyone was lying when Deonte said he was leaving for personal reasons because really it was because he was demotivated, right?
I think Wojo likes the protential of young players. He seems to lean towards them over the players that have been in the program, who do not seem to continue to progress. Haani has not improved much from his freshmen year and really could have felt threaten by Anim, Elliot & Cain.
Carter felt threaten by Howard.
Cohen by Sam.
Wilson only lasted so long, because he had redshirted.
The common theme in all of these are players is that got to play a lot as freshmen and subsequently saw their roles dropping as younger players started taking away their playing time.
Quote from: Its DJOver on November 29, 2017, 11:09:41 AMGroup Two:
Ed. Sacar. Harry. Ike
All of these players have sat out a year either from redshirting or transferring. I know transfers as a whole have been on the rise the past decade, but I feel like a low number of players transfer twice, and the majority of the 6 year players go the Otule route. That rules out traditional transfer, and leaves a grad transfer possibility, and grad transfers generally are easier to adjust to.
Always nice to see new posters. One slight correction, because Harry's year in residence was mid-season to mid-season, he still goes from being a freshman to a sophomore. He will still be a second-year sophomore, so would probably be better categorized with the Group Three guys. That said, I think the only way he leaves is going pro, but that's just my personal opinion.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 29, 2017, 11:32:42 AM
Everyone is lying for no apparent reason and the evidence of this is a mysterious almost chuckle.
OK.
Just like everyone was lying when Deonte said he was leaving for personal reasons because really it was because he was demotivated, right?
Well, he was demotivated. Isn't that depression? His MKE support system was no longer there (mom's death and Buzz). Can't it be both?
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 29, 2017, 11:54:29 AM
Well, he was demotivated. Isn't that depression? His MKE support system was no longer there (mom's death and Buzz). Can't it be both?
What's the point here exactly....that Wojo helped generate Burton's depression (demotivation)???
Here is the thing about this 4 class concept....can we point at anyone other than probably Burton where we go damn really wish that one hadn't gotten away? One can make an argument that what has left has been replaced with equal or better talent so is it really a problem? Look at the roster as it stands for next year, that has Elite Eight and top 2 in BE written all over it (at least from an expectation standpoint), so are things really not working out? If the 2019 recruit class continues to bring in that kind of talent, have we gone wrong even with transfers?
Quote from: mu03eng on November 29, 2017, 12:33:14 PM
What's the point here exactly....that Wojo helped generate Burton's depression (demotivation)???
I didn't mention Wojo. My response was to Pakuni ripping posters here in regards to the transfer at the time who said Deonte was demotivated. Fact is and was, that he was. The two adults he was closest to weren't there any more. Basketball is these young men's lives.
Fast forward to Haanif or any other transfer. Can't the reason for transferring be both personal and basketball related? Of course it is but the Scoop Intelligencia again goes into Wojo spin mode.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 29, 2017, 12:49:12 PM
I didn't mention Wojo. My response was to Pakuni ripping posters here in regards to the transfer at the time who said Deonte was demotivated. Fact is and was, that he was. The two adults he was closest to weren't there any more. Basketball is these young men's lives.
Fast forward to Haanif or any other transfer. Can't the reason for transferring be both personal and basketball related? Of course it is but the Scoop Intelligencia again goes into Wojo spin mode.
It absolutely can, but at the time of transfer a huge hullabaloo was made of Wojo demotivating Burton and Carter, so I guess it's a bit of a trigger in my mind.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 29, 2017, 11:32:42 AM
Everyone is lying for no apparent reason and the evidence of this is a mysterious almost chuckle.
OK.
Just like everyone was lying when Deonte said he was leaving for personal reasons because really it was because he was demotivated, right?
Lying? I don't think anyone is lying. If the kid told the school he was leaving for personal reasons, whatever that may be, even if he was just using that as an excuse, they're going to say he is leaving for personal reasons.
I'm just spitballing. I am not convinced that Haani didn't have some family matter that was so important he needed to move back to Florida. Its certainly possible.
Quote from: mu03eng on November 29, 2017, 12:36:56 PM
Here is the thing about this 4 class concept....can we point at anyone other than probably Burton where we go damn really wish that one hadn't gotten away? One can make an argument that what has left has been replaced with equal or better talent so is it really a problem? Look at the roster as it stands for next year, that has Elite Eight and top 2 in BE written all over it (at least from an expectation standpoint), so are things really not working out? If the 2019 recruit class continues to bring in that kind of talent, have we gone wrong even with transfers?
Levin, Carter and Duane would all be nice to have in varying degrees. Obviously depends on who ISN'T here in exchange that is the other part of that equation.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on November 29, 2017, 01:16:06 PM
Lying? I don't think anyone is lying. If the kid told the school he was leaving for personal reasons, whatever that may be, even if he was just using that as an excuse, they're going to say he is leaving for personal reasons.
I'm just spitballing. I am not convinced that Haani didn't have some family matter that was so important he needed to move back to Florida. Its certainly possible.
(https://i.imgur.com/itMcsy5.gif)
We are in year FOUR of Wojo's tenure and we're talking like it's ok if we miss the tournament this year because....???? Bizarre. Year 4 and some fans are approaching it and treating it like a rebuilding year. "NEXT year we should be really good" yawn....
This is getting old.
Someone mentioned in this in another thread but its worth re-mentioning. When coaches rebuild a program, typically they bring in better talent every year. When an older player gets passed on the depth chart by a younger player, it can take away hope for the older player to ever have the role they are hoping for. These transfers are "better" than a younger player transferring because an older player will be in their way for a year or two.
We've upped the talent every year until the most recent class. Its caused some growing pains. I think next season is the year it all comes together.
Quote from: Al Davis on November 29, 2017, 01:36:14 PM
We are in year FOUR of Wojo's tenure and we're talking like it's ok if we miss the tournament this year because....???? Bizarre. Year 4 and some fans are approaching it and treating it like a rebuilding year. "NEXT year we should be really good" yawn....
This is getting old.
Because this year was always going to be a down year. Let's even say burton and Dawson never leave. We still end up graduating JJJ Luke Burton, and Dawson. And seeing as Duane would've been without all his classmates I still would've predicted he grad transfers.
Quote from: Al Davis on November 29, 2017, 01:36:14 PM
We are in year FOUR of Wojo's tenure and we're talking like it's ok if we miss the tournament this year because....???? Bizarre. Year 4 and some fans are approaching it and treating it like a rebuilding year. "NEXT year we should be really good" yawn....
This is getting old.
It shouldn't be. It's new this season. Last season was not a rebuilding season. We had the players to compete and did. We lost three starters to graduation, one to transfer, and one role player to transfer. Most teams take a step back when that happens. Next season will not be a rebuilding season. If it is, that's a huge problem and Wojo will be in trouble.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on November 29, 2017, 01:16:06 PM
Lying? I don't think anyone is lying. If the kid told the school he was leaving for personal reasons, whatever that may be, even if he was just using that as an excuse, they're going to say he is leaving for personal reasons.
Wojo has stated on more than one occasion Haanif left for personal/family reasons.
You have on several occasions, including in this post, questioned the sincerity and veracity of that. Even claimed that
the way Wojo stated it in a press conference indicates it's not the real reason.
Hence, you are accusing him of lying.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 29, 2017, 01:57:38 PM
Wojo has stated on more than one occasion Haanif left for personal/family reasons.
You have on several occasions, including in this post, questioned the sincerity and veracity of that. Even claimed that the way Wojo stated it in a press conference indicates it's not the real reason.
Hence, you are accusing him of lying.
:o. Chill out, brah.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 29, 2017, 01:40:53 PM
It shouldn't be. It's new this season. Last season was not a rebuilding season. We had the players to compete and did. We lost three starters to graduation, one to transfer, and one role player to transfer. Most teams take a step back when that happens. Next season will not be a rebuilding season. If it is, that's a huge problem and Wojo will be in trouble.
Every team deals with losing players to graduation. They rebuild with good younger classes and the older classes should emerge and improve so you can consistently compete. At least good programs do. I don't understand why in year 4 we have an imbalanced roster with glaring holes in it. This is HIS team... no bueno. Not saying we can't compete this season because I believe we can. There's obviously some positives to this roster i.e. shooting/scoring. But glaring issues i.e. experience, DEFENSE. inside scoring etc. I think this team is as bubblicious as it gets.
Beat Chicago State ! Go Warriors
Quote from: Al Davis on November 29, 2017, 02:03:54 PM
Every team deals with losing players to graduation. They rebuild with good younger classes and the older classes should emerge and improve so you can consistently compete. At least good programs do. I don't understand why in year 4 we have an imbalanced roster with glaring holes in it. This is HIS team... no bueno. Not saying we can't compete this season because I believe we can. There's obviously some positives to this roster i.e. shooting/scoring. But glaring issues i.e. experience, DEFENSE. inside scoring etc. I think this team is as bubblicious as it gets.
Beat Chicago State ! Go Warriors
Yes, every team deals with losing players to graduation. Most teams who lose 4 starters and 1 bench player are worse the next year than they were the year before.
Quote from: BallBoy on November 28, 2017, 11:06:19 PM
2003 - 1 of four stayed four years
2004 - 1 of three stayed four years 1 Juco used full eligibility
2005 - 3 of 5 stayed 4yrs and 1 Juco used full eligibility
2006 - 2 of 3 stayed 4 yrs
2007 - 0 of 2 stayed 4 yrs
2008 - 3 of 3 used full eligibility (Butler and Fulce)
2009 - 3 of 6 stayed
2010 - 3 of 6 stayed
2011 - 2 of 3 stayed though 1 tried to transfer and stayed. Mayo was kicked out.
2012 - 0 of 2 stayed
2013 - 1 of 5 stayed
2014 - 0 of 1 stayed
2015 - 2 of 5 currently on roster
2016 - 3 of 3 currently on roster (one hasn't shown up)*
2017 - 4 of 4 still on roster*
I don't see how you guys look at this analysis and don't see a problem. Wojo became the coach in 2014 and inherited the guys that were on the team. He is
responsible for transfer statistics from 2012 until now. At the same time you must throw out the stats from 2017 (these guys haven't even been at MU for more than a few months) and 1 of 2016 who isn't here yet. So for the players he is responsible for 5 of 15 have stayed on the roster. People that is
terrible even in an age of transfers. You can rationalize this all you want by saying he is upgrading talent etc. But one of the reasons Wojo was brought in was to bring stability to the program so. Buzz was shown the door in part because we feared he was turning MU into a "basketball mill" which relied on 2 year "rental" Jucos. But so far the program under Wojo has had less stability then Buzz and its not like Buzz is the gold standard. I don't think there is anything wrong with admitting that experience would indicate that there is something in player retention that needs to be fixed.
Quote from: NotAnAlum on November 29, 2017, 02:39:11 PM
I don't see how you guys look at this analysis and don't see a problem. Wojo became the coach in 2014 and inherited the guys that were on the team. He is responsible for transfer statistics from 2012 until now. At the same time you must throw out the stats from 2017 (these guys haven't even been at MU for more than a few months) and 1 of 2016 who isn't here yet. So for the players he is responsible for 5 of 15 have stayed on the roster. People that is terrible even in an age of transfers. You can rationalize this all you want by saying he is upgrading talent etc. But one of the reasons Wojo was brought in was to bring stability to the program so. Buzz was shown the door in part because we feared he was turning MU into a "basketball mill" which relied on 2 year "rental" Jucos. But so far the program under Wojo has had less stability then Buzz and its not like Buzz is the gold standard. I don't think there is anything wrong with admitting that experience would indicate that there is something in player retention that needs to be fixed.
So Wojo is responsible for Jamal Ferguson and Jameel McKay transferring?
Huh. Who knew?
It's been said time and time again but I think it bares repeating: Wojo inherited a literal dumpster fire of a roster.
That 14-15 team, my senior year, set basketball back many years. And while some will argue that we had a budding star in Deonte eventually leave that team, after his mom passed there was nothing we could do to keep him. So I don't even count his first year here because even his predecessor couldn't do crap with that team.
Wojo comes back in year 2 with a great freshman class and a promising young team, albeit with no postseason relevance to show for it, but then Henry heads to the NBA. While getting Henry was vital in landing Markus and Sam (which led to landing Joey, which was supposed to lead to landing QG), imagine Henry on last year's team at the 4 (something many of us argued should have been the case in him staying 2 years). That team could end up going down as one of the greatest offenses college basketball has recently seen with Henry in the mix. While we still had a really nice year and peaked late, our potential was there to make a DEEP run last year with Henry. And even though Henry didn't accomplish much of anything while here, it established that Wojo can get guys to the league after 1 year: something that already has and will continue to pay dividends in his recruiting. In all, a very successful year in my mind.
So now we're in year 4, having just graduated 3 key players and losing another to transfer (death aside, a comparable situation to that of Deonte), and I think most of us still really liked where we were a week ago. So let's cool it on the "sky is falling" narrative after a win in which a lot of signs pointed to it being a crap game (Maui hangover, Monday night game against a meh opponent, first game without a veteran leader who hours earlier had left the team). While I am obviously concerned about our depth, especially until Harry is eligible, we're right in line with what I was hoping for this season: Sam has emerged as "the guy", our freshmen are making serious strides already, and if we can get to conference play with just 2/3 losses we put ourselves in a great position to have an 'at-large' resume.
I agree that the annual turnstile is getting tiresome, and is a troubling trend that role players aren't willing to buy into said role, but we are bringing in much more talent than is jumping ship. Once we get that stability next season (Harry, Ed, Joey all KEY parts of our success and only losing Heldt the year after), then I will start to get worried if departures affect our depth. There's no excuse from that point on IMO, but I still like Wojo's trajectory to this point.
Quote from: onepostwarrior on November 29, 2017, 02:52:55 PM
It's been said time and time again but I think it bares repeating: Wojo inherited a literal dumpster fire of a roster.
That 14-15 team, my senior year, set basketball back many years. And while some will argue that we had a budding star in Deonte eventually leave that team, after his mom passed there was nothing we could do to keep him. So I don't even count his first year here because even his predecessor couldn't do crap with that team.
Wojo comes back in year 2 with a great freshman class and a promising young team, albeit with no postseason relevance to show for it, but then Henry heads to the NBA. While getting Henry was vital in landing Markus and Sam (which led to landing Joey, which was supposed to lead to landing QG), imagine Henry on last year's team at the 4 (something many of us argued should have been the case in him staying 2 years). That team could end up going down as one of the greatest offenses college basketball has recently seen with Henry in the mix. While we still had a really nice year and peaked late, our potential was there to make a DEEP run last year with Henry. And even though Henry didn't accomplish much of anything while here, it established that Wojo can get guys to the league after 1 year: something that already has and will continue to pay dividends in his recruiting. In all, a very successful year in my mind.
So now we're in year 4, having just graduated 3 key players and losing another to transfer (death aside, a comparable situation to that of Deonte), and I think most of us still really liked where we were a week ago. So let's cool it on the "sky is falling" narrative after a win in which a lot of signs pointed to it being a crap game (Maui hangover, Monday night game against a meh opponent, first game without a veteran leader who hours earlier had left the team). While I am obviously concerned about our depth, especially until Harry is eligible, we're right in line with what I was hoping for this season: Sam has emerged as "the guy", our freshmen are making serious strides already, and if we can get to conference play with just 2/3 losses we put ourselves in a great position to have an 'at-large' resume.
I agree that the annual turnstile is getting tiresome, and is a troubling trend that role players aren't willing to buy into said role, but we are bringing in much more talent than is jumping ship. Once we get that stability next season (Harry, Ed, Joey all KEY parts of our success and only losing Heldt the year after), then I will start to get worried if departures affect our depth. There's no excuse from that point on IMO, but I still like Wojo's trajectory to this point.
Great post!
A couple of comments...
One of the major reasons Wojo was hired was to restore roster stability to the program. He hasn't as the reality is that is college basketball. But to the people who hired him and to many Vesties at the time, that was their expectation (and may be a problem yet for many people).
Not mine as I think it is best for the young person and program that there is turnover. It should have started on Day 1 like with WBB but it didn't.
Wojo has learned and moved more aggressively (and honestly) to work on the right pieces. The reality is Haanif didn't fit as thought and for whatever reasons transferred. He was essentially a blocker to the Frosh on playing time. Win/Win. Better now for both.
Next year we are loaded and can immediately get our one missing piece: PG
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 29, 2017, 03:01:32 PM
A couple of comments...
One of the major reasons Wojo was hired was to restore roster stability to the program. He hasn't as the reality is that is college basketball. But to the people who hired him and to many Vesties at the time, that was their expectation (and may be a problem yet for many people).
Not mine as I think it is best for the young person and program that there is turnover. It should have started on Day 1 like with WBB but it didn't.
Wojo has learned and moved more aggressively (and honestly) to work on the right pieces. The reality is Haanif didn't fit as thought and for whatever reasons transferred. He was essentially a blocker to the Frosh on playing time. Win/Win. Better now for both.
Next year we are loaded and can immediately get our one missing piece: PG
Agree with this! i would love to see a grad transfer PG. someone with experience and height :)
Quote from: Al Davis on November 29, 2017, 02:03:54 PM
Every team deals with losing players to graduation. They rebuild with good younger classes and the older classes should emerge and improve so you can consistently compete. At least good programs do. I don't understand why in year 4 we have an imbalanced roster with glaring holes in it. This is HIS team... no bueno. Not saying we can't compete this season because I believe we can. There's obviously some positives to this roster i.e. shooting/scoring. But glaring issues i.e. experience, DEFENSE. inside scoring etc. I think this team is as bubblicious as it gets.
Beat Chicago State ! Go Warriors
Like it or not, some of this is a consequence of taking a one and done (Henry) when we were in a major rebuilding year. If we had taken a talented 4 year player instead of Henry, we'd likely have more roster stability and steady state climb in expectation.
Lastly, for those that think the Wojo era has been full of instability and turmoil....whadya think punching the reset button now would bring? Who would we punch that button for, another unproven assistant? There are likely to be several well regarded HC jobs open in the next 2 years, it isn't the time to go shopping for a new coach.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 29, 2017, 03:01:32 PM
One of the major reasons Wojo was hired was to restore roster stability to the program. He hasn't as the reality is that is college basketball. But to the people who hired him and to many Vesties at the time, that was their expectation (and may be a problem yet for many people).
And that reason was a stupid one to hire Wojo. That was a direct reaction to some hoitie toities not liking the type of players Buzz was bringing in.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 29, 2017, 03:01:32 PM
A couple of comments...
One of the major reasons Wojo was hired was to restore roster stability to the program.
This has been stated repeatedly here, but who in authority actually ever said this?
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on November 28, 2017, 02:17:41 PM
I think 99% of Scoopers agree with this. To me, the NCAA was always a difficult achievement for this team. Next year and the year after, it should be an expectation. In fact by Howard and Sam's senior season, they should be contending for the BE title and at least the S16,
No, we should be contending for Beast title now, Wojo's 4th year
But at best it will be another middle of the pack year. Time to turn up the hrat. What is getting old is the mantra that we will be good next year or the year after.
Quote from: onepostwarrior on November 29, 2017, 02:52:55 PM
It's been said time and time again but I think it bares repeating: Wojo inherited a literal dumpster fire of a roster.
That 14-15 team, my senior year, set basketball back many years. And while some will argue that we had a budding star in Deonte eventually leave that team, after his mom passed there was nothing we could do to keep him. So I don't even count his first year here because even his predecessor couldn't do crap with that team.
Wojo comes back in year 2 with a great freshman class and a promising young team, albeit with no postseason relevance to show for it, but then Henry heads to the NBA. While getting Henry was vital in landing Markus and Sam (which led to landing Joey, which was supposed to lead to landing QG), imagine Henry on last year's team at the 4 (something many of us argued should have been the case in him staying 2 years). That team could end up going down as one of the greatest offenses college basketball has recently seen with Henry in the mix. While we still had a really nice year and peaked late, our potential was there to make a DEEP run last year with Henry. And even though Henry didn't accomplish much of anything while here, it established that Wojo can get guys to the league after 1 year: something that already has and will continue to pay dividends in his recruiting. In all, a very successful year in my mind.
So now we're in year 4, having just graduated 3 key players and losing another to transfer (death aside, a comparable situation to that of Deonte), and I think most of us still really liked where we were a week ago. So let's cool it on the "sky is falling" narrative after a win in which a lot of signs pointed to it being a crap game (Maui hangover, Monday night game against a meh opponent, first game without a veteran leader who hours earlier had left the team). While I am obviously concerned about our depth, especially until Harry is eligible, we're right in line with what I was hoping for this season: Sam has emerged as "the guy", our freshmen are making serious strides already, and if we can get to conference play with just 2/3 losses we put ourselves in a great position to have an 'at-large' resume.
I agree that the annual turnstile is getting tiresome, and is a troubling trend that role players aren't willing to buy into said role, but we are bringing in much more talent than is jumping ship. Once we get that stability next season (Harry, Ed, Joey all KEY parts of our success and only losing Heldt the year after), then I will start to get worried if departures affect our depth. There's no excuse from that point on IMO, but I still like Wojo's trajectory to this point.
Lot's of hyperbole, some downright fake news.
Quote from: willie warrior on November 29, 2017, 04:47:13 PM
No, we should be contending for Beast title now, Wojo's 4th year
But at best it will be another middle of the pack year. Time to turn up the hrat. What is getting old is the mantra that we will be good next year or the year after.
Admit it, Willie. You miss Buzz.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 29, 2017, 04:36:23 PM
This has been stated repeatedly here, but who in authority actually ever said this?
I don't know that Wojo was brought into bring back "roster stability" but I do know that he sold MU on a 5 year rebuilding plan with year 5 featuring a team capable of winning the BEast and a foundation for future successful teams.
So far, he seems to be on track. While it's still a long way until the start of next season, I like the look of the roster a lot. I think QG was the final piece that is now missing. Losing Haanie hurts us this season, but I honestly don't think it hurts the long term vision because I think HC was likely the odd man out if QG had signed up. I expect we will go after another player to fill in that piece very aggressively because no one wants to make this deadline more than Wojo. I don't know who that last piece is yet, I'm open to anything as long as they can play next season.
Though I do have to say, I think no matter who that last piece is, I don't think we are winning the BEast next season. Villanova is a top 5 team this season with 0 seniors....think about that for a second. If Brunson and Bridges don't go pro, they should be the favorite to win it all next season.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 29, 2017, 04:56:03 PM
Lot's of hyperbole, some downright fake news.
Kinda hard to say the cupboard was bare when clearing out the cobwebs is the reason we're projected to backslide this year.
Quote from: NotAnAlum on November 29, 2017, 02:39:11 PM
I don't see how you guys look at this analysis and don't see a problem. Wojo became the coach in 2014 and inherited the guys that were on the team. He is responsible for transfer statistics from 2012 until now. At the same time you must throw out the stats from 2017 (these guys haven't even been at MU for more than a few months) and 1 of 2016 who isn't here yet. So for the players he is responsible for 5 of 15 have stayed on the roster. People that is terrible even in an age of transfers. You can rationalize this all you want by saying he is upgrading talent etc. But one of the reasons Wojo was brought in was to bring stability to the program so. Buzz was shown the door in part because we feared he was turning MU into a "basketball mill" which relied on 2 year "rental" Jucos. But so far the program under Wojo has had less stability then Buzz and its not like Buzz is the gold standard. I don't think there is anything wrong with admitting that experience would indicate that there is something in player retention that needs to be fixed.
This was already called out in the post above. Wojo is really only accountable for 2014-2017. We don't know about 16 and 17 because they are Freshman and Sophomores as was called out. That leaves only 14 and 15. See the asterisk stating that 16 and 17 weren't included in the counts. Reading is fundamental. NOT INCLUDING 16 and 17, MARQUETTE HAS HAD MORE PLAYERS TRANSFER THEN USE THEIR FULL ELIGIBILITY SINCE 2003.
2012 is Jamal Ferguson and Steve Taylor. Jamal never played for Wojo. Steve Taylor was rumored to be ready to transfer ever year so are we surprised he left at year 4?
2013 - Duane, JJJ, McKay, Burton, Dawson - Buzz's marquee class. JJJ stayed. Mckay never played for Wojo or Buzz. Dawson though on the roster for both never played until he transferred in Wojo's first year (Can't say that was Wojo) Duane stayed until 2016 and grad transferred. Burton left 6 games into Wojos first year(again can't say that was Wojo).
2014 - Cohen - Buzz recruit who was ready to leave and then Wojo convinced him to come to Marquette only to transfer later
2015 - 2 of 5 stayed. One left for the NBA. Two supposedly left for personal reasons.
You eliminated 2 of Wojo's classes but included 3 of Buzz's. Of the players that Wojo is responsible for 9 of 12 are still on the roster. 1 left for the NBA so let's eliminate that one so 9 of 11.
Quote from: Small Orange Soda on November 29, 2017, 07:51:19 PM
Kinda hard to say the cupboard was bare when clearing out the cobwebs is the reason we're projected to backslide this year.
I have maintained, whether on this board or in person, that I thought we'd have a comparable year to last year: bubble team but with enough firepower to make the tourney. And it's one thing to comment on inheriting first-year player Duane Wilson, pretty much-first year player in Luke Fischer, and second-year player Jajuan Johnson (among Carlino, Deonte, and scrubs), and making note that losing the three of them as graduating seniors can be challenging for a young team. They all improved and were absolutely a big part of our success last year.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 29, 2017, 04:56:03 PM
Lot's of hyperbole, some downright fake news.
Certainly guilty of hyperbole (albeit grounded in logic), but where the fake news?