Can Wojo put together a team across four classes?

[brewcity77]

Group Two:
Ed.  Sacar.  Harry.  Ike
All of these players have sat out a year either from redshirting or transferring.  I know transfers as a whole have been on the rise the past decade, but I feel like a low number of players transfer twice, and the majority of the 6 year players go the Otule route.  That rules out traditional transfer, and leaves a grad transfer possibility, and grad transfers generally are easier to adjust to.

Always nice to see new posters. One slight correction, because Harry's year in residence was mid-season to mid-season, he still goes from being a freshman to a sophomore. He will still be a second-year sophomore, so would probably be better categorized with the Group Three guys. That said, I think the only way he leaves is going pro, but that's just my personal opinion.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Everyone is lying for no apparent reason and the evidence of this is a mysterious almost chuckle.
OK.

Just like everyone was lying when Deonte said he was leaving for personal reasons because really it was because he was demotivated, right?

Well, he was demotivated. Isn't that depression?  His MKE support system was no longer there (mom's death and Buzz). Can't it be both?

[mu03eng]

Well, he was demotivated. Isn't that depression?  His MKE support system was no longer there (mom's death and Buzz). Can't it be both?

What's the point here exactly....that Wojo helped generate Burton's depression (demotivation)???

[mu03eng]

Here is the thing about this 4 class concept....can we point at anyone other than probably Burton where we go damn really wish that one hadn't gotten away? One can make an argument that what has left has been replaced with equal or better talent so is it really a problem? Look at the roster as it stands for next year, that has Elite Eight and top 2 in BE written all over it (at least from an expectation standpoint), so are things really not working out? If the 2019 recruit class continues to bring in that kind of talent, have we gone wrong even with transfers?

[Dr. Blackheart]

What's the point here exactly....that Wojo helped generate Burton's depression (demotivation)???

I didn't mention Wojo. My response was to Pakuni ripping posters here in regards to the transfer at the time who said Deonte was demotivated. Fact is and was, that he was. The two adults he was closest to weren't there any more. Basketball is these young men's lives.

Fast forward to Haanif or any other transfer.  Can't the reason for transferring be both personal and basketball related?  Of course it is but the Scoop Intelligencia again goes into Wojo spin mode.

[mu03eng]

I didn't mention Wojo. My response was to Pakuni ripping posters here in regards to the transfer at the time who said Deonte was demotivated. Fact is and was, that he was. The two adults he was closest to weren't there any more. Basketball is these young men's lives.

Fast forward to Haanif or any other transfer.  Can't the reason for transferring be both personal and basketball related?  Of course it is but the Scoop Intelligencia again goes into Wojo spin mode.

It absolutely can, but at the time of transfer a huge hullabaloo was made of Wojo demotivating Burton and Carter, so I guess it's a bit of a trigger in my mind.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Everyone is lying for no apparent reason and the evidence of this is a mysterious almost chuckle.
OK.

Just like everyone was lying when Deonte said he was leaving for personal reasons because really it was because he was demotivated, right?

Lying?  I don't think anyone is lying.  If the kid told the school he was leaving for personal reasons, whatever that may be, even if he was just using that as an excuse, they're going to say he is leaving for personal reasons. 

I'm just spitballing.  I am not convinced that Haani didn't have some family matter that was so important he needed to move back to Florida.  Its certainly possible.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Here is the thing about this 4 class concept....can we point at anyone other than probably Burton where we go damn really wish that one hadn't gotten away? One can make an argument that what has left has been replaced with equal or better talent so is it really a problem? Look at the roster as it stands for next year, that has Elite Eight and top 2 in BE written all over it (at least from an expectation standpoint), so are things really not working out? If the 2019 recruit class continues to bring in that kind of talent, have we gone wrong even with transfers?

Levin, Carter and Duane would all be nice to have in varying degrees.  Obviously depends on who ISN'T here in exchange that is the other part of that equation. 

[mu03eng]

Lying?  I don't think anyone is lying.  If the kid told the school he was leaving for personal reasons, whatever that may be, even if he was just using that as an excuse, they're going to say he is leaving for personal reasons. 

I'm just spitballing.  I am not convinced that Haani didn't have some family matter that was so important he needed to move back to Florida.  Its certainly possible.

[Hubert Davis]

We are in year FOUR of Wojo's tenure and we're talking like it's ok if we miss the tournament this year because....???? Bizarre. Year 4 and some fans are approaching it and treating it like a rebuilding year. "NEXT year we should be really good" yawn....

This is getting old.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Someone mentioned in this in another thread but its worth re-mentioning. When coaches rebuild a program, typically they bring in better talent every year. When an older player gets passed on the depth chart by a younger player, it can take away hope for the older player to ever have the role they are hoping for. These transfers are "better" than a younger player transferring because an older player will be in their way for a year or two.

We've upped the talent every year until the most recent class. Its caused some growing pains. I think next season is the year it all comes together.

[Galway Eagle]

We are in year FOUR of Wojo's tenure and we're talking like it's ok if we miss the tournament this year because....???? Bizarre. Year 4 and some fans are approaching it and treating it like a rebuilding year. "NEXT year we should be really good" yawn....

This is getting old.

Because this year was always going to be a down year. Let's even say burton and Dawson never leave. We still end up graduating JJJ Luke Burton, and Dawson. And seeing as Duane would've been without all his classmates I still would've predicted he grad transfers.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

We are in year FOUR of Wojo's tenure and we're talking like it's ok if we miss the tournament this year because....???? Bizarre. Year 4 and some fans are approaching it and treating it like a rebuilding year. "NEXT year we should be really good" yawn....

This is getting old.

It shouldn't be. It's new this season. Last season was not a rebuilding season. We had the players to compete and did. We lost three starters to graduation, one to transfer, and one role player to transfer. Most teams take a step back when that happens. Next season will not be a rebuilding season. If it is, that's a huge problem and Wojo will be in trouble.

[Pakuni]

Lying?  I don't think anyone is lying.  If the kid told the school he was leaving for personal reasons, whatever that may be, even if he was just using that as an excuse, they're going to say he is leaving for personal reasons. 

Wojo has stated on more than one occasion Haanif left for personal/family reasons.

You have on several occasions, including in this post, questioned the sincerity and veracity of that. Even claimed that the way Wojo stated it in a press conference indicates it's not the real reason.
Hence, you are accusing him of lying.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Wojo has stated on more than one occasion Haanif left for personal/family reasons.

You have on several occasions, including in this post, questioned the sincerity and veracity of that. Even claimed that the way Wojo stated it in a press conference indicates it's not the real reason.
Hence, you are accusing him of lying.

. Chill out, brah.

[Hubert Davis]

It shouldn't be. It's new this season. Last season was not a rebuilding season. We had the players to compete and did. We lost three starters to graduation, one to transfer, and one role player to transfer. Most teams take a step back when that happens. Next season will not be a rebuilding season. If it is, that's a huge problem and Wojo will be in trouble.

Every team deals with losing players to graduation. They rebuild with good younger classes and the older classes should emerge and improve so you can consistently compete. At least good programs do. I don't understand why in year 4 we have an imbalanced roster with glaring holes in it. This is HIS team... no bueno. Not saying we can't compete this season because I believe we can. There's obviously some positives to this roster i.e. shooting/scoring. But glaring issues i.e. experience, DEFENSE. inside scoring etc.  I think this team is as bubblicious as it gets.

Beat Chicago State ! Go Warriors

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Every team deals with losing players to graduation. They rebuild with good younger classes and the older classes should emerge and improve so you can consistently compete. At least good programs do. I don't understand why in year 4 we have an imbalanced roster with glaring holes in it. This is HIS team... no bueno. Not saying we can't compete this season because I believe we can. There's obviously some positives to this roster i.e. shooting/scoring. But glaring issues i.e. experience, DEFENSE. inside scoring etc.  I think this team is as bubblicious as it gets.

Beat Chicago State ! Go Warriors

Yes, every team deals with losing players to graduation. Most teams who lose 4 starters and 1 bench player are worse the next year than they were the year before.

[NotAnAlum]

2003 - 1 of four stayed four years
2004 - 1 of three stayed four years 1 Juco used full eligibility
2005 - 3 of 5 stayed 4yrs and 1 Juco used full eligibility
2006 - 2 of 3 stayed 4 yrs
2007 - 0 of 2 stayed 4 yrs
2008 - 3 of 3 used full eligibility (Butler and Fulce)
2009 - 3 of 6 stayed
2010 - 3 of 6 stayed
2011 - 2 of 3 stayed though 1 tried to transfer and stayed.  Mayo was kicked out.
2012 - 0 of 2 stayed
2013 - 1 of 5 stayed
2014 - 0 of 1 stayed
2015 - 2 of 5 currently on roster
2016 -  3 of 3 currently on roster (one hasn't shown up)*
2017 - 4 of 4 still on roster*

I don't see how you guys look at this analysis and don't see a problem.  Wojo became the coach in 2014 and inherited the guys that were on the team.  He is responsible for transfer statistics from 2012 until now.  At the same time you must throw out the stats from 2017 (these guys haven't even been at MU for more than a few months) and 1 of 2016 who isn't here yet.  So for the players he is responsible for 5 of 15 have stayed on the roster.  People that is terrible even in an age of transfers.  You can rationalize this all you want by saying he is upgrading talent etc.  But one of the reasons Wojo was brought in was to bring stability to the program so.  Buzz was shown the door in part because we feared he was turning MU into a "basketball mill" which relied on 2 year "rental" Jucos.  But so far the program under Wojo has had less stability then Buzz and its not like Buzz is the gold standard.  I don't think there is anything wrong with admitting that experience would indicate that there is something in player retention that needs to be fixed.

[Pakuni]

I don't see how you guys look at this analysis and don't see a problem.  Wojo became the coach in 2014 and inherited the guys that were on the team.  He is responsible for transfer statistics from 2012 until now.  At the same time you must throw out the stats from 2017 (these guys haven't even been at MU for more than a few months) and 1 of 2016 who isn't here yet.  So for the players he is responsible for 5 of 15 have stayed on the roster.  People that is terrible even in an age of transfers.  You can rationalize this all you want by saying he is upgrading talent etc.  But one of the reasons Wojo was brought in was to bring stability to the program so.  Buzz was shown the door in part because we feared he was turning MU into a "basketball mill" which relied on 2 year "rental" Jucos.  But so far the program under Wojo has had less stability then Buzz and its not like Buzz is the gold standard.  I don't think there is anything wrong with admitting that experience would indicate that there is something in player retention that needs to be fixed.

So Wojo is responsible for Jamal Ferguson and Jameel McKay transferring?
Huh. Who knew?

[onepost]

It's been said time and time again but I think it bares repeating: Wojo inherited a literal dumpster fire of a roster.
That 14-15 team, my senior year, set basketball back many years.  And while some will argue that we had a budding star in Deonte eventually leave that team, after his mom passed there was nothing we could do to keep him.  So I don't even count his first year here because even his predecessor couldn't do crap with that team.

Wojo comes back in year 2 with a great freshman class and a promising young team, albeit with no postseason relevance to show for it, but then Henry heads to the NBA.  While getting Henry was vital in landing Markus and Sam (which led to landing Joey, which was supposed to lead to landing QG), imagine Henry on last year's team at the 4 (something many of us argued should have been the case in him staying 2 years).  That team could end up going down as one of the greatest offenses college basketball has recently seen with Henry in the mix.  While we still had a really nice year and peaked late, our potential was there to make a DEEP run last year with Henry.  And even though Henry didn't accomplish much of anything while here, it established that Wojo can get guys to the league after 1 year: something that already has and will continue to pay dividends in his recruiting.  In all, a very successful year in my mind.

So now we're in year 4, having just graduated 3 key players and losing another to transfer (death aside, a comparable situation to that of Deonte), and I think most of us still really liked where we were a week ago.  So let's cool it on the "sky is falling" narrative after a win in which a lot of signs pointed to it being a crap game (Maui hangover, Monday night game against a meh opponent, first game without a veteran leader who hours earlier had left the team).  While I am obviously concerned about our depth, especially until Harry is eligible, we're right in line with what I was hoping for this season: Sam has emerged as "the guy", our freshmen are making serious strides already, and if we can get to conference play with just 2/3 losses we put ourselves in a great position to have an 'at-large' resume.

I agree that the annual turnstile is getting tiresome, and is a troubling trend that role players aren't willing to buy into said role, but we are bringing in much more talent than is jumping ship.  Once we get that stability next season (Harry, Ed, Joey all KEY parts of our success and only losing Heldt the year after), then I will start to get worried if departures affect our depth.  There's no excuse from that point on IMO, but I still like Wojo's trajectory to this point.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

It's been said time and time again but I think it bares repeating: Wojo inherited a literal dumpster fire of a roster.
That 14-15 team, my senior year, set basketball back many years.  And while some will argue that we had a budding star in Deonte eventually leave that team, after his mom passed there was nothing we could do to keep him.  So I don't even count his first year here because even his predecessor couldn't do crap with that team.

Wojo comes back in year 2 with a great freshman class and a promising young team, albeit with no postseason relevance to show for it, but then Henry heads to the NBA.  While getting Henry was vital in landing Markus and Sam (which led to landing Joey, which was supposed to lead to landing QG), imagine Henry on last year's team at the 4 (something many of us argued should have been the case in him staying 2 years).  That team could end up going down as one of the greatest offenses college basketball has recently seen with Henry in the mix.  While we still had a really nice year and peaked late, our potential was there to make a DEEP run last year with Henry.  And even though Henry didn't accomplish much of anything while here, it established that Wojo can get guys to the league after 1 year: something that already has and will continue to pay dividends in his recruiting.  In all, a very successful year in my mind.

So now we're in year 4, having just graduated 3 key players and losing another to transfer (death aside, a comparable situation to that of Deonte), and I think most of us still really liked where we were a week ago.  So let's cool it on the "sky is falling" narrative after a win in which a lot of signs pointed to it being a crap game (Maui hangover, Monday night game against a meh opponent, first game without a veteran leader who hours earlier had left the team).  While I am obviously concerned about our depth, especially until Harry is eligible, we're right in line with what I was hoping for this season: Sam has emerged as "the guy", our freshmen are making serious strides already, and if we can get to conference play with just 2/3 losses we put ourselves in a great position to have an 'at-large' resume.

I agree that the annual turnstile is getting tiresome, and is a troubling trend that role players aren't willing to buy into said role, but we are bringing in much more talent than is jumping ship.  Once we get that stability next season (Harry, Ed, Joey all KEY parts of our success and only losing Heldt the year after), then I will start to get worried if departures affect our depth.  There's no excuse from that point on IMO, but I still like Wojo's trajectory to this point.

Great post!

[Dr. Blackheart]

A couple of comments...

One of the major reasons Wojo was hired was to restore roster stability to the program. He hasn't as the reality is that is college basketball. But to the people who hired him and to many Vesties at the time, that was their expectation (and may be a problem yet for many people).

Not mine as I think it is best for the young person and program that there is turnover. It should have started on Day 1 like with WBB but it didn't.

Wojo has learned and moved more aggressively (and honestly) to work on the right pieces. The reality is Haanif didn't fit as thought and for whatever reasons transferred.  He was essentially a blocker to the Frosh on playing time.  Win/Win.  Better now for both.

Next year we are loaded and can immediately get our one missing piece:  PG

[goldeneagle91114]

A couple of comments...

One of the major reasons Wojo was hired was to restore roster stability to the program. He hasn't as the reality is that is college basketball. But to the people who hired him and to many Vesties at the time, that was their expectation (and may be a problem yet for many people).

Not mine as I think it is best for the young person and program that there is turnover. It should have started on Day 1 like with WBB but it didn't.

Wojo has learned and moved more aggressively (and honestly) to work on the right pieces. The reality is Haanif didn't fit as thought and for whatever reasons transferred.  He was essentially a blocker to the Frosh on playing time.  Win/Win.  Better now for both.

Next year we are loaded and can immediately get our one missing piece:  PG

Agree with this! i would love to see a grad transfer PG. someone with experience and height

[mu03eng]

Every team deals with losing players to graduation. They rebuild with good younger classes and the older classes should emerge and improve so you can consistently compete. At least good programs do. I don't understand why in year 4 we have an imbalanced roster with glaring holes in it. This is HIS team... no bueno. Not saying we can't compete this season because I believe we can. There's obviously some positives to this roster i.e. shooting/scoring. But glaring issues i.e. experience, DEFENSE. inside scoring etc.  I think this team is as bubblicious as it gets.

Beat Chicago State ! Go Warriors

Like it or not, some of this is a consequence of taking a one and done (Henry) when we were in a major rebuilding year. If we had taken a talented 4 year player instead of Henry, we'd likely have more roster stability and steady state climb in expectation.

Lastly, for those that think the Wojo era has been full of instability and turmoil....whadya think punching the reset button now would bring? Who would we punch that button for, another unproven assistant? There are likely to be several well regarded HC jobs open in the next 2 years, it isn't the time to go shopping for a new coach.

[mu03eng]

One of the major reasons Wojo was hired was to restore roster stability to the program. He hasn't as the reality is that is college basketball. But to the people who hired him and to many Vesties at the time, that was their expectation (and may be a problem yet for many people).

And that reason was a stupid one to hire Wojo. That was a direct reaction to some hoitie toities not liking the type of players Buzz was bringing in.