Regardless of what happens the rest of the way out, this has been progress over last season. Just the fact that it is March and we're still talking about THIS season is a huge improvement over the last 3 years. If we lose our next two and somehow don't make the NCAA that will be immensely disappointing, but still progress. If we get in straight to a Thurs/Fri game and, gasp, even win one or even two (this team is dangerous enough) that would be amazing.
I was on board after Creighton, was a bit disheartened after the G-town loss and dropping 4 of 5, but this team easily could have pulled an X, packed it in, and a$$-slid their way out of the season. Coming back and winning these 3 of 4 (really should be 4 of 4 UUUGGHH) is a testament to the players, and Wojo. Don't care that X is depleted, no easy outs in the BE. Winning 3 of 4, when we needed to, is huge.
Now if we lay an egg next year and post a losing record or something I'll be right back calling for warmth in the seat again. But this thing is trending the right direction (kudos to those of you who said that years ago, but I still think that was more a statement of faith than fact - I'm thrilled you've been right, but don't let it go to your heads too much ;D).
Here's to hoping PC was the last L of the year.
Quote from: 1SE on March 02, 2017, 02:54:57 AM
Now if we lay an egg next year and post a losing record or something I'll be right back calling for warmth in the seat again.
I'm sure Wojo is relieved that some anonymous interwebs mope has given him a temporary stay of execution.
Quote from: MU82 on March 02, 2017, 03:17:54 AM
I'm sure Wojo is relieved that some anonymous interwebs mope has given him a temporary stay of execution.
He probably figures it can't hurt.
Last year Scoop was talking Vegas 16. This year, Big Dance. That right there reflects the progress made this year.
I would agree that there was some progress made in 2016 and even say beyond baby steps. Overall my grade for this season moved up to C+ based on the heart shown over last couple of weeks. I will add, several times last night our half court offense looked extremely good.
Agree with everything, there is progress. Consider:
1) The Hillbilly left us in the worst condition Marquette basketball had been in, at least since Dukiet and possibly EVER. The number of scholarship athletes we had in Wojo's first year was debilitating and it showed. The fact we won as many as we did was a testament to Wojo.
2) Last year we had a top 5 recruit and won 20 games, arguably on a weak schedule. We had a lot of freshmen and it showed. The weaknesses on our team were largely due to inexperience.
3) We have a good team this year that's probably tournament bound. We did this despite losing our Top 5 recruit and knowing rebounding and power inside play would be a struggle. Our defense is much better and our guys are buying in.
4) Our recruits for next year fix the biggest single weakness on our team -- inside play. I'm thinking we may be one of the better teams in the conference if our freshmen gel next year.
Yeah, there are always things that we can do better. But I give Wojo credit because we're going where we are supposed to go. They just are.
And yet I feel over half the board (the trolls) would rather see the team go 0-30 as long as Wojo doesn't make the tourney.
This team is coming along nicely. I'm loving it.
Quote from: Goose on March 02, 2017, 11:05:02 AM
I would agree that there was some progress made in 2016 and even say beyond baby steps. Overall my grade for this season moved up to C+ based on the heart shown over last couple of weeks. I will add, several times last night our half court offense looked extremely good.
What in the world were your expectations at the onset that this is a C+?
Quote from: Goose on March 02, 2017, 11:05:02 AM
I would agree that there was some progress made in 2016 and even say beyond baby steps. Overall my grade for this season moved up to C+ based on the heart shown over last couple of weeks. I will add, several times last night our half court offense looked extremely good.
Out of curiosity what do you consider an A+? What grades were 11-12 and 08-09? What was 10-11?
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on March 02, 2017, 11:52:52 AM
Out of curiosity what do you consider an A+? What grades were 11-12 and 08-09? What was 10-11?
Yeah I'm curious, because really 10-11 should be no higher than this year (at least at this point in the season)
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on March 02, 2017, 11:52:52 AM
Out of curiosity what do you consider an A+? What grades were 11-12 and 08-09? What was 10-11?
The only road to A+ is winning it all. Finishing 2nd in the BE would bring the grade to a B. Finishing 3rd? B-. But there is still work to do for that.
C is average and we are 9-8. Easy choice for C+
I feel much better about this years team. . . even though last year we had 20 wins. We were a bad DePaul loss away from a 500 record in the conference and a 3 point Creighton loss from being 2 games in the other direction. More then likely that would be good enough for the NCAAs.
I can see the progress. It used to be we were 6'6" (if that) swichables that couldn't shoot for crap or make free throws. Now we are one of the best 3 point shooting teams in the country. We have improved height. Next year are are bringing ever more height and athleticism to the team. Our guards are legit snipers.
Even though I keep reading or hearing that this win locked in an NCAA tourney. . . I will believe it when I see it!
What is Great about this season is we have had some hugely disappointing close losses.
What I mean by that is we're still going to the tourney and with a couple of breaks and some more maturity we could be a solid 3 and even 2 in the BE.
Dare I say ranked??
I really think that will be corrected next year. Wojo is getting better...trial by fire. He will get it more and more. Next year we will see it. I just hope our nonconf schedule is better so we can prove it a bit more.
Final comment- Buzz was and is a good coach. I hope we meet and beat vaTech in the tourney.
Quote from: brandx on March 02, 2017, 11:59:26 AM
The only road to A+ is winning it all. Finishing 2nd in the BE would bring the grade to a B. Finishing 3rd? B-. But there is still work to do for that.
C is average and we are 9-8. Easy choice for C+
Too set in stone if you're expected to be terrible and play above expectations would that not warrant a higher grade given expectations?
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on March 02, 2017, 12:04:40 PM
Too set in stone if you're expected to be terrible and play above expectations would that not warrant a higher grade given expectations?
right, we were picked for 7th in BE and not even expected to be in the tourney discussion...
Granted we are 6th currently, but we are guaranteed a finish above 7th, and are 100% in the tourney discussion.
So improvement on expectations does not count as success. Apparently for some, success is only defined by championships. I'm sure this is the same guy that thinks any NFL QB without a super bowl ring shouldn't be in the HOF or their kid getting a B+ on a math test after getting a C- on the first one isn't progress, it's trash.
Bocephys
Expectations were for a C or C+ season, a bubble team or NIT team. Don't find that anything to get overly excited about. Gave them the + because they have shown a bit of grit the last couple of weeks. Overall, some exciting moments and some real downer moments. Biggest disappoint to me is complete lack of understanding on how to play D and not a great deal of player development.
That all adds up to a C+ in my book.
We are so far from the 14-15 season:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOIGSZ9jZyY
Quote from: Goose on March 02, 2017, 12:10:28 PM
Bocephys
Expectations were for a C or C+ season, a bubble team or NIT team. Don't find that anything to get overly excited about. Gave them the + because they have shown a bit of grit the last couple of weeks. Overall, some exciting moments and some real downer moments. Biggest disappoint to me is complete lack of understanding on how to play D and not a great deal of player development.
That all adds up to a C+ in my book.
Got it, so the C+ is a global rating of a successful season for any team, not in relation to any Marquette specific expectations you had about this year specifically. In that sense, it is fair.
Quote from: brandx on March 02, 2017, 11:59:26 AM
The only road to A+ is winning it all. Finishing 2nd in the BE would bring the grade to a B. Finishing 3rd? B-. But there is still work to do for that.
C is average and we are 9-8. Easy choice for C+
Wow. Tough grader.
So only one student can get an A+, even if there are 351 kids in the class?
Quote from: brandx on March 02, 2017, 11:59:26 AM
The only road to A+ is winning it all. Finishing 2nd in the BE would bring the grade to a B. Finishing 3rd? B-. But there is still work to do for that.
C is average and we are 9-8. Easy choice for C+
We were generally predicted to finish 7th in the league, so I would say a B rating.
Providence was generally expected to finish 9th, so I would give Cooly an A rating.
Butler head coach would get a B
Georgetown head coach would get a D leaning towards an F.
Xavier head coach a D
Villanova & DePaul a C. They did as expected.
St. John's a B
Seton Hall a C+
Creighton maybe a B for not falling apart like Xavier did.
Quote from: warriorchick on March 02, 2017, 12:24:24 PM
Wow. Tough grader.
So only one student can get an A+, even if there are 351 kids in the class?
The rest get to hang a banner!
Quote from: Goose on March 02, 2017, 12:10:28 PM
Bocephys
Expectations were for a C or C+ season, a bubble team or NIT team. Don't find that anything to get overly excited about. Gave them the + because they have shown a bit of grit the last couple of weeks. Overall, some exciting moments and some real downer moments. Biggest disappoint to me is complete lack of understanding on how to play D and not a great deal of player development.
That all adds up to a C+ in my book.
I have my concerns too, but results matter. If they can get to 10-8 top 4 in BE, and an NCAA bid, that's a really nice season.
Quote from: bilsu on March 02, 2017, 12:31:48 PM
We were generally predicted to finish 7th in the league, so I would say a B rating.
Providence was generally expected to finish 9th, so I would give Cooly an A rating.
Butler head coach would get a B
Georgetown head coach would get a D leaning towards an F.
Xavier head coach a D
Villanova & DePaul a C. They did as expected.
St. John's a B
Seton Hall a C+
Creighton maybe a B for not falling apart like Xavier did.
Villanova a C?
Quote from: warriorchick on March 02, 2017, 12:24:24 PM
Wow. Tough grader.
So only one student can get an A+, even if there are 351 kids in the class?
Everyone else gets a participant trophy.
Its pretty obvious the team is just that, a team. They need each other to win and its nice to see there isn't just one guy that MU needs to get consistent every game to do so. Team chemistry is probably the best I have seen in many years.
Quote from: bilsu on March 02, 2017, 12:31:48 PM
Villanova a C. They did as expected.
So if you are the preseason number 1 and you win the national championship you get a C because you did as expected?
There are two ways of looking at grades (though you could take a combination of the two in some manner), I suppose, and I understand both ways.
1. What you are/did.
2. What you are/did compared to expectations.
I think leaning toward number 1 makes more sense. A kid who was expected to get 100 on a math test and got a 99 still really did better than a kid who expected to get a 65 and got a 72.
Quote from: Goose on March 02, 2017, 11:05:02 AM
I would agree that there was some progress made in 2016 and even say beyond baby steps. Overall my grade for this season moved up to C+ based on the heart shown over last couple of weeks. I will add, several times last night our half court offense looked extremely good.
Curious to know what grade you would have given K.O. after his third season, during which the Warriors went 16-13. After a promising 11-4 start, they went 5-9, including a 1-7 stretch that effectively eliminated any postseason chances.
Yes, I admit I'm goading you a little here because I know how much you revere K.O. But seriously, if this is only a C+, what would that have been?
BTW ... I'm giving Wojo a solid B. We have one of the best offenses in the country, we are entertaining to watch, he has been willing to change and adjust on the fly, our D is slowly improving (not enough, but it is), winning is expected again and we seemingly are headed back to the Dance.
Get to the Sweet 16, and it's an A.
After graduation, I found grades to be absolutely the least relevant result of my Marquette education. I graduated with honors, but not one interviewer ever brought up or asked questions about my GPA. They wanted to know more about me and my experience.
What's the point of "grading" a season or a player? The number of wins a team earns — non-conference, in conference and postseason — is apparent to anybody who cares. Seems more like an exercise in self-importance; if you're a tough grader, you must hold the program to a higher standard than other fans.
If, instead, a grade speaks to your appreciation and enjoyment of Marquette college basketball, I suspect anyone who gives this season a C+ must be generally unhappy. This has been one of the most exciting, unpredictable seasons I've witnessed in the past 25 years. Ups and downs, highs and lows, it's truly been a roller coaster. And roller coasters are hella fun. What's not to enjoy?
MU82
Have said it many times, anyone and everyone around the program was excited about direction program was going in KO's 3rd year. Attendance was up, he was engaged in community and overall excitement level. It was more the atmosphere surrounding the program than anything else. I remember sitting at Elsa's with KO numerous times and saying who cares if you lose every game in first couple of years as long as upgrading program for long haul.
Quote from: Goose on March 02, 2017, 01:01:58 PM
MU82
Have said it many times, anyone and everyone around the program was excited about direction program was going in KO's 3rd year. Attendance was up, he was engaged in community and overall excitement level. It was more the atmosphere surrounding the program than anything else. I remember sitting at Elsa's with KO numerous times and saying who cares if you lose every game in first couple of years as long as upgrading program for long haul.
That's cool. I liked K.O. a lot and I believe he helped the program tremendously.
I don't know Wojo but I also like how he's grown as a coach and I believe he has helped the program tremendously.
You very skillfully didn't answer the question, but that's OK.
Quote from: Goose on March 02, 2017, 01:01:58 PM
MU82
Have said it many times, anyone and everyone around the program was excited about direction program was going in KO's 3rd year. Attendance was up, he was engaged in community and overall excitement level. It was more the atmosphere surrounding the program than anything else. I remember sitting at Elsa's with KO numerous times and saying who cares if you lose every game in first couple of years as long as upgrading program for long haul.
How is that any different than what Wojo is trying to do/in the process of doing?
Cleaned up the program, got his guys in, progressed each year to a point we are now most likely a tournament team in year three.
Quote from: dgies9156 on March 02, 2017, 11:36:26 AM
Agree with everything, there is progress. Consider:
1) The Hillbilly left us in the worst condition Marquette basketball had been in, at least since Dukiet and possibly EVER. The number of scholarship athletes we had in Wojo's first year was debilitating and it showed. The fact we won as many as we did was a testament to Wojo.
2) Last year we had a top 5 recruit and won 20 games, arguably on a weak schedule. We had a lot of freshmen and it showed. The weaknesses on our team were largely due to inexperience.
3) We have a good team this year that's probably tournament bound. We did this despite losing our Top 5 recruit and knowing rebounding and power inside play would be a struggle. Our defense is much better and our guys are buying in.
4) Our recruits for next year fix the biggest single weakness on our team -- inside play. I'm thinking we may be one of the better teams in the conference if our freshmen gel next year.
Yeah, there are always things that we can do better. But I give Wojo credit because we're going where we are supposed to go. They just are.
...and we still have two scholies to fill. Let's see what happens during the spring signing.
MU82
Grade for KO for year 3 (?) probably F on the court and an A for everything else. There was no one close to the KO situation that cared about instant on court success if the end game was winning at a high level. I can assure you I told him to his face (after too many beers) the on court was an F.
I do not have any confidence, AT THIS POINT, that Wojo will win at a high level at MU. Note--I do not believe it is not possible, just far for confident on it.
Looking at win-loss results alone oversimplifies things. We lost Ellenson from last year and Wojo was able to cobble together a roster that included Howard, Hauser, Reinhardt and Rowsey, none of whom played a single minute for us last year. He built an identity around that group and has done a pretty good job of mitigating some fairly pronounced weaknesses in defense and rebounding. Yes, we've had some tough losses but I don't completely blame Wojo for that. It's pretty impressive that we are where we are now.
Quote from: Goose on March 02, 2017, 01:33:33 PM
MU82
Grade for KO for year 3 (?) probably F on the court and an A for everything else. There was no one close to the KO situation that cared about instant on court success if the end game was winning at a high level. I can assure you I told him to his face (after too many beers) the on court was an F.
I do not have any confidence, AT THIS POINT, that Wojo will win at a high level at MU. Note--I do not believe it is not possible, just far for confident on it.
I respect your opinion, But I think you're in the Minority on this one.
Loose Cannon
I would not be so sure on my being in the minority on that one. There might have been a number of folks in town a couple of weeks that are not certain that Wojo will win big here.
Quote from: warriorchick on March 02, 2017, 12:24:24 PM
Wow. Tough grader.
So only one student can get an A+, even if there are 351 kids in the class?
As it should be. The days of everyone being made to feel good are over.
I had a bud at MU who majored in sociology or literature or some such thing who took pride in the fact that he n get took one note in class. Instead, he sat back and absorbed the professor's brilliance, reflecting on the proferred wisdom.
And while he managed mostly C's with the occasional bonus B he felt that he was receiving a true liberal arts education - similar to Plato nestled at the feet of Socrates.
The Gentleman's C is nothing to be ashamed of.
Quote from: Uncertain on March 02, 2017, 02:28:40 PM
As it should be. The days of everyone being made to feel good are over.
I had a bud at MU who majored in sociology or literature or some such thing who took pride in the fact that he n get took one note in class. Instead, he sat back and absorbed the professor's brilliance, reflecting on the proferred wisdom.
And while he managed mostly C's with the occasional bonus B he felt that he was receiving a true liberal arts education - similar to Plato nestled at the feet of Socrates.
The Gentleman's C is nothing to be ashamed of.
Yeah, say that last line in a job interview and see what happens.
Quote from: Goose on March 02, 2017, 02:15:27 PM
Loose Cannon
I would not be so sure on my being in the minority on that one. There might have been a number of folks in town a couple of weeks that are not certain that Wojo will win big here.
Disappointed to read your comments, you have always been the positive one and voice of reason. I think one of the biggest mistakes a program can make is to live in the past. Getting back to the Al days may be a pipe dream in today's landscape. I think Wojo can turn the program around to be a perineal winner. I see Villanova as more of a model than Duke. This is only year 3 and the trajectory has been going consistently up year over year. If it goes down in year 4 or 5 then we should be concerned.
Quote from: warriorchick on March 02, 2017, 02:33:40 PM
Yeah, say that last line in a job interview and see what happens.
As if anyone is actually themselves in an interview. Personally, I would find such candor refreshing and should wish to hire such a man into a position of authority.
The world is filled with yes men. Organizations that seek out and reward those who embrace blind adherence to dogma get what they deserve.
Hairy
I have my fingers crossed on Wojo getting the job done. Far from jumping ship. You can still count me in the glass half full . I agree on the Al era be repeated is a pipe dream. That said, I think Buzz was the closest to getting us there than any coach post Al. I liked the edge his teams played with and their toughness.
Again, I want Wojo to succeed.
Quote from: Goose on March 02, 2017, 02:56:09 PM
Hairy
I have my fingers crossed on Wojo getting the job done. Far from jumping ship. You can still count me in the glass half full glass. I agree on the Al era be repeated is a pipe dream. That said, I think Buzz was the closest to getting us there than any coach post Al. I liked the edge his teams played with and their toughness.
Again, I want Wojo to succeed.
Goose
Were you a note taker at MU, prepared to regurgitate the instructor's polemic back verbatim?
Or were you an enlightened one, a man who craved knowledge for the wisdom it contained, rather than a lemming seeking passage to a law school?
Here is my scale
A - Any recognition above just making the Tournament like BE Tournament/Regular Season Champions, Sweet 16 or Beyond
B - Make Tournament
C - Make NIT
D - Do Not Make the Tournament
F - Do Not Make the Tournament, bad recognition above just not making the tournament.
You get a plus or minus to indicate
+ You exceeded Expectation
- You didn't meet expectations
For example, if we make the tournament this year it is a B+. We weren't expected to do so we exceeded expectation but just made the tournament. If we were expected to easily make the tournament but backed into it then it would be a B-. A+ would be not expecting to compete yet we won the BE Tournament and made the NCAA tournament or made Sweet 16 or Elite 8.
Quote from: Uncertain on March 02, 2017, 02:55:56 PM
As if anyone is actually themselves in an interview. Personally, I would find such candor refreshing and should wish to hire such a man into a position of authority.
The world is filled with yes men. Organizations that seek out and reward those who embrace blind adherence to dogma get what they deserve.
And to clarify, they should be scrapping the bottom of the barrel to get those people? You should go into politics.
Quote from: Goose on March 02, 2017, 02:56:09 PM
Hairy
I have my fingers crossed on Wojo getting the job done. Far from jumping ship. You can still count me in the glass half full. I agree on the Al era be repeated is a pipe dream. That said, I think Buzz was the closest to getting us there than any coach post Al. I liked the edge his teams played with and their toughness.
Again, I want Wojo to succeed.
Alternative facts. You very clearly bailed on this squad weeks ago when you proudly boasted that you turned down free tickets to a game based on the malaise you feel regarding Wojo.
Move on.
Quote from: Golden Avalanche on March 02, 2017, 04:04:49 PM
Alternative facts. You very clearly bailed on this squad weeks ago when you proudly boasted that you turned down free tickets to a game based on the malaise you feel regarding Wojo.
Move on.
Not wrong.
Or when he stated long time season ticket holders were thinking about getting bucks tickets instead of Marquette tickets for the first time.
Golden and JD
I do hope both of you have invested as much time and money as I have over the years. If so, feel free to continue any bashing you care to throw at me. If not, your posts hold little water.
Again, appreciate your comments and advice to leave the board.
Quote from: Goose on March 02, 2017, 05:39:12 PM
Golden and JD
I do hope both of you have invested as much time and money as I have over the years. If so, feel free to continue any bashing you care to throw at me. If not, your posts hold little water.
Again, appreciate your comments and advice to leave the board.
While they said it a little more uncooth. You have to admit there is some irony in you referring to yourself as glasses half full when you weren't exactly mr positive nor long ago. Mind you this isn't a question of your investment in MU, nor passion as a fan it is only questioning your self evaluation as a glasses half full fan about wojo.
Quote from: Goose on March 02, 2017, 02:15:27 PM
Loose Cannon
I would not be so sure on my being in the minority on that one. There might have been a number of folks in town a couple of weeks that are not certain that Wojo will win big here.
Well we disagree, so I'll leave it at that. Thanks for the reply.
Boxer
Little choice but try and be positive. This is not the program I would like to see, but hoping Wojo delivers the goods.
Quote from: Goose on March 02, 2017, 05:44:51 PM
Boxer
Little choice but try and be positive. This is not the program I would like to see, but hoping Wojo delivers the goods.
Fair enough. You certainly seem to come off more positive as of late than previously so heres to hoping that he delivers and makes that continue
Boxer
I will go as far backwards as needed, if end game is higher tier program. My expectations, sadly, has lowered a great deal as what higher tier looks likes for MU.
Quote from: warriorchick on March 02, 2017, 02:33:40 PM
Yeah, say that last line in a job interview and see what happens.
I had a "Gentleman's C" once. Not a lot of shame but it cost me $200.
Uncertain is Vogue/VagueAF right?
Quote from: warriorchick on March 02, 2017, 12:24:24 PM
Wow. Tough grader.
So only one student can get an A+, even if there are 351 kids in the class?
About 251 of those 351 are "students" are auditing the course, though.
Quote from: MUeagle1090 on March 02, 2017, 01:31:52 PM
How is that any different than what Wojo is trying to do/in the process of doing?
Cleaned up the program, got his guys in, progressed each year to a point we are now most likely a tournament team in year three.
Simple.
KO followed Dukiet. Wojo followed Buzz.
Quote from: Goose on March 02, 2017, 01:33:33 PM
MU82
Grade for KO for year 3 (?) probably F on the court and an A for everything else. There was no one close to the KO situation that cared about instant on court success if the end game was winning at a high level. I can assure you I told him to his face (after too many beers) the on court was an F.
I do not have any confidence, AT THIS POINT, that Wojo will win at a high level at MU. Note--I do not believe it is not possible, just far for confident on it.
What are the key reasons for your lack of confidence that Wojo will win at a high level at MU?
Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on March 02, 2017, 08:00:22 PM
What are the key reasons for your lack of confidence that Wojo will win at a high level at MU?
Not to me, but the lack of a track record, the lack of any individual players' significant improvement, and the fact that we have had very different teams in each of the three years Wojo has been here are all causes for concern.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 02, 2017, 08:24:13 PM
_ee_e
Wrong user IDed
Shouldn't have to hide his name
Rants are the new norm
Quote from: connie on March 02, 2017, 08:07:40 PM
Not to me, but the lack of a track record, the lack of any individual players' significant improvement, and the fact that we have had very different teams in each of the three years Wojo has been here are all causes for concern.
Lack of Track Record - Name one coach in the last 40 years that had a better track record prior to Marquette and had success. The closest is Mike Deane who coached powerhouse Siena prior to taking over. He was not successful. Crean was a high level assistant coach with less experience. Buzz had less experience. Crean struggled in a lower league before getting the ship correct. Wojo is more experienced then both and he inherited a team not nearly as good as Buzz had.
Lack of Significant player improvement - Matt Heldt has gotten significantly better. Markus Howard is very good. Hauser is very good. If you look at the team Wojo's players are the best players on the team. Year over year his teams have gotten much better. That is what is important.
Different Teams - He has had different teams. He inherited a very limited team and had to go get a fifth year senior just to be competitive. Year 2 he had a first round NBA player who was one and done. He left and started over. Each year the team has gotten better and he is starting to build steam.
Let's be honest. Those people who don't like Wojo don't like him because of Duke.
This year is turning out pretty good and we will likely make the NCAA tournament. I also believe next year we will be better than this year and I would not not said that at the start of this season.
Quote from: warriorchick on March 02, 2017, 02:33:40 PM
Yeah, say that last line in a job interview and see what happens.
I am sure you are right. Especially in today's corporate world. When I interviewed for my second job after graduation; I, to my surprise, got a really bad reference from one of my MU Professors but still got the job. Everyone was impressed with my attitude and work ethic. I really appreciated that my new boss told me not to use that Professor as a reference on future job interviews. Grade Point is not everything. I think the most important factor is: are you a good fit.
Quote from: connie on March 02, 2017, 08:07:40 PM
Not to me, but the lack of a track record, the lack of any individual players' significant improvement, and the fact that we have had very different teams in each of the three years Wojo has been here are all causes for concern.
Where does one even start with this...
Quote from: connie on March 02, 2017, 08:07:40 PMand the fact that we have had very different teams in each of the three years Wojo has been here are all causes for concern.
What about the fact that Buzz was lauded for the same thing? The play style of the Amigos, Midgets, and the first Sweet 16 teams were dramatically different. So it's a plus for Buzz and a negative for Wojo?
Here's the way I see it. There are people that were against Wojo from there start. Whether it's the Duke background (and I suspect that's 99.9% of it), the lack of experience, or not a flashy name, they simply won't come around.
Those same people aren't fans of his perceived lack of openness. Like K, he's built a wall around the program and is a fairly stale interview. These are the same people who were raised on Al, reborn under KO, and felt they'd found a spiritual successor in Buzz. While they certainly value winning, they want Marquette to do so in an interesting, eccentric way. They hate the idea of Marquette being a bland, disciplined program as much as they hate seeing Marquette lose.
That's why they can't embrace Wojo and why they diminish his accomplishments. By any measurement, Wojo has shown continued improvement and success the past three years. If you aren't excited about players like Howard and Hauser (as well as Henry last year) then honestly what do you want? This is progress, and anyone around the program that doesn't see it is choosing to be willfully blind.
And last point, I'm really sick of the whole "if you'd been around the program and given as much as I have" line of BS. Some of us weren't born that long ago, some of us don't have the means. Commitment isn't measured by a date of birth or a bank account. I'm glad for those that have enjoyed a long time of Marquette success and done well for themselves, but that doesn't make you a better fan than anyone else on here.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 03, 2017, 05:14:57 AM
What about the fact that Buzz was lauded for the same thing? The play style of the Amigos, Midgets, and the first Sweet 16 teams were dramatically different. So it's a plus for Buzz and a negative for Wojo?
Here's the way I see it. There are people that were against Wojo from there start. Whether it's the Duke background (and I suspect that's 99.9% of it), the lack of experience, or not a flashy name, they simply won't come around.
Those same people aren't fans of his perceived lack of openness. Like K, he's built a wall around the program and is a fairly stale interview. These are the same people who were raised on Al, reborn under KO, and felt they'd found a spiritual successor in Buzz. While they certainly value winning, they want Marquette to do so in an interesting, eccentric way. They hate the idea of Marquette being a bland, disciplined program as much as they hate seeing Marquette lose.
That's why they can't embrace Wojo and why they diminish his accomplishments. By any measurement, Wojo has shown continued improvement and success the past three years. If you aren't excited about players like Howard and Hauser (as well as Henry last year) then honestly what do you want? This is progress, and anyone around the program that doesn't see it is choosing to be willfully blind.
And last point, I'm really sick of the whole "if you'd been around the program and given as much as I have" line of BS. Some of us weren't born that long ago, some of us don't have the means. Commitment isn't measured by a date of birth or a bank account. I'm glad for those that have enjoyed a long time of Marquette success and done well for themselves, but that doesn't make you a better fan than anyone else on here.
Well done.
I also think people are Monday morning quarterbacking a little bit. Kevin O'Neill got to have Tony Smith as a senior on his first team and that lead him to the NIT. But I distinctly remember listening to the MCC tournament on the radio back in 1991 when they lost in the quarterfinals to SLU. I thought "this program is going nowhere." I was wrong. He was building something that took until his fourth year to get to the tournament.
I also think we are a little to close to see what is happening. People outside the program see what Wojo is doing and understand the progress. We are still comparing him to Buzz, which is nonsensical and not really all that fair. Take a step back and objectively look.
I have to admit..though i do see what Wojo is building..my frustration stems from the fact that the program bottomed out like it did to begin with..especially after where it had been and where it had the potential to go..it was like two steps forward and 5 steps backward.
Larry and Pilarsz are the reason it happened and for that, I will never forgive them.
Quote from: muguru on March 03, 2017, 07:17:54 AM
I have to admit..though i do see what Wojo is building..my frustration stems from the fact that the program bottomed out like it did to begin with..especially after where it had been and where it had the potential to go..it was like two steps forward and 5 steps backward.
Larry and Pilarsz are the reason it happened and for that, I will never forgive them.
Guru, I can completely understand that frustration. But that can't be all on Wojo. That is 50% Wojo at best.
Brew:
Great post. Sadly people root for or against the coaches and not for the team. We are a top 3 point shooting team in the country with great guards and sat play.
Does our D need work? Damn straight it does! Does Wojo need to work on his in game coaching? Definitely still.
But to say Wojo is not getting the job done, or to refuse to see progress because you are old and crochity and are the "get off my lawn" guy of the board is ridiculous.
Quote from: muguru on March 03, 2017, 07:17:54 AMLarry and Pilarsz are the reason it happened and for that, I will never forgive them.
They contributed to it, but it was Buzz that made that roster. Buzz recruited Derrick, Juan, Steve, Mayo, Dawson, Eonte, and the rest of them. Carlino was our best player and the only actual Wojo recruit.
Beyond that, it was on the administration that gave Pilarz and Williams their marching orders. When they left, it was on Robert Wild and Bill Cords, who didn't relax the restrictions Buzz felt were too much to deal with.
And why did those marching orders come out? Back to Buzz recruiting players that couldn't have graduated under any circumstance.
I know you don't care about that stuff, but the powers that be do. It's absolutely something that reflects on the University, and the basketball program is an extension and representation of the University, not the other way around.
At the end of the day, blame Buzz. He recruited those players and his recruiting decisions made the Pilarz/Williams direction necessary in the first place. Yes, we bottomed out under Wojo, but that would've happened whether the coach was Wojo, Buzz, or Al McGuire.
Quote from: fjm on March 03, 2017, 07:27:15 AM
Does our D need work? Damn straight it does! Does Wojo need to work on his in game coaching? Definitely still.
But to say Wojo is not getting the job done, or to refuse to see progress because you are old and crochity and are the "get off my lawn" guy of the board is ridiculous.
FJM with all due respect progress and getting the job done are two different things. In my mind there are three separate questions - are we getting better, are we at the goals set by the program and is the current leadership able to get us to the goals of the program.
Objectively its yes, no -- the third is subjective and that is the debate.
Maybe I've reached crotchety land but from what I've seen this isnt an age exclusive.
Slightly different topic, but I wonder if Wojo would have handled Deonte differently now that he has more experience under his belt. Of all the transfers out, he really is the only one that I look back and think "what could have been." With the driving lanes that are opening up with these shooters? And it's not like his defense was any worse than some of the other players on this team.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on March 03, 2017, 08:04:07 AM
Slightly different topic, but I wonder if Wojo would have handled Deonte differently now that he has more experience under his belt. Of all the transfers out, he really is the only one that I look back and think "what could have been." With the driving lanes that are opening up with these shooters? And it's not like his defense was any worse than some of the other players on this team.
Except he would never pass it to the open shooters. I like Deonte and am glad he is doing well. He is an amazing talent, but he would make this team worse not better.
Quote from: forgetful on March 03, 2017, 08:09:17 AM
Except he would never pass it to the open shooters. I like Deonte and am glad he is doing well. He is an amazing talent, but he would make this team worse not better.
Yeah after you said this I looked up his stats. He has a .493 eFG. That would rank him 9th on this Marquette team, just ahead of Haanif Cheatham at .490.
Nevermind. Bad thought.
Quote from: forgetful on March 03, 2017, 08:09:17 AM
Except he would never pass it to the open shooters. I like Deonte and am glad he is doing well. He is an amazing talent, but he would make this team worse not better.
I wholeheartedly disagree with this analysis.
Burton would make this team worse? Sorry, I don't understand that one.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 03, 2017, 07:58:55 AM
And why did those marching orders come out? Back to Buzz recruiting players that couldn't have graduated under any circumstance.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection is one player who didn't have a realistic chance of graduating in the last semester of his eligibility.
Of course, everyone also knew when Henry Ellenson was signed there was zero chance he'd ever graduate but the powers that be and the scolds on Scoop viewed that very differently.
I was grateful to have both Jae and Henry.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 03, 2017, 08:32:17 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection is one player who didn't have a realistic chance of graduating in the last semester of his eligibility.
Of course, everyone also knew when Henry Ellenson was signed there was zero chance he'd ever graduate but the powers that be and the scolds on Scoop viewed that very differently.
I was grateful to have both Jae and Henry.
I enjoyed watching both, and Jae more than Henry. But I don't contribute enough to be one of those decision makers. Just saying that Buzz brought those restrictions on himself.
On the point about people wanting the program to be eccentric, I never really agreed with this. It sounds cool in isolation but we are not in the 70s anymore and the McGuire days are long gone. Eccentricity comes with volatility, friction, and short relationships. You can't have a conservative, Catholic, midwestern institution and expect it to always get a long with coaches that want free reign to speak their minds and ruffle feathers. It's just not going to last in an era where players can tweet whatever pops into their minds and everyone wants to know everything that happens behind closed doors. I'll take a boring Wojo who conducts himself and the program with class any day.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 03, 2017, 08:36:47 AM
I enjoyed watching both, and Jae more than Henry. But I don't contribute enough to be one of those decision makers. Just saying that Buzz brought those restrictions on himself.
So Buzz brought in one player (not players, as you posted) without a reasonable chance to graduate during his eligibility and this = bringing restrictions on himself.
Do you suppose the recruitment of Henry (and his brother, for that matter) will result in "restrictions" on Wojo? Sure hope not.
Quote from: Goose on March 03, 2017, 08:27:14 AM
Burton would make this team worse? Sorry, I don't understand that one.
Wojo said it Wednesday. This team is better when it shares the ball and Deonte doesn't move the ball. He stops it and usually shoots it. He has more shots per 100 possessions than anyone on this Marquette team, yet as I mentioned earlier, is about as effective a shooter as Haanif Cheatham - you know - the player that everyone says has regressed this year.
Does he have skills that this team lacks? Yes. Particularly on the rebounding end. So while I am not sure we would be worse with Burton, I am not sure how much better we would be. And unless he changed under Wojo's coaching, he would not really fit into this ball movement offense.
So I do understand the argument.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 03, 2017, 08:45:25 AM
So Buzz brought in one player (not players, as you posted) without a reasonable chance to graduate during his eligibility and this = bringing restrictions on himself.
Players is correct. Dwight Buycks couldn't have graduated during his eligibility either. He ended up graduating so I don't think it really matters.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on March 03, 2017, 08:48:34 AM
Players is correct. Dwight Buycks couldn't have graduated during his eligibility either. He ended up graduating so I don't think it really matters.
I don't think Mayo helped Buzz's case either. He didn't cause anything to change from a JUCO perspective, but I doubt he helped the Buzz/Administration relationship.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 03, 2017, 05:14:57 AM
What about the fact that Buzz was lauded for the same thing? The play style of the Amigos, Midgets, and the first Sweet 16 teams were dramatically different. So it's a plus for Buzz and a negative for Wojo?
Here's the way I see it. There are people that were against Wojo from there start. Whether it's the Duke background (and I suspect that's 99.9% of it), the lack of experience, or not a flashy name, they simply won't come around.
Those same people aren't fans of his perceived lack of openness. Like K, he's built a wall around the program and is a fairly stale interview. These are the same people who were raised on Al, reborn under KO, and felt they'd found a spiritual successor in Buzz. While they certainly value winning, they want Marquette to do so in an interesting, eccentric way. They hate the idea of Marquette being a bland, disciplined program as much as they hate seeing Marquette lose.
That's why they can't embrace Wojo and why they diminish his accomplishments. By any measurement, Wojo has shown continued improvement and success the past three years. If you aren't excited about players like Howard and Hauser (as well as Henry last year) then honestly what do you want? This is progress, and anyone around the program that doesn't see it is choosing to be willfully blind.
And last point, I'm really sick of the whole "if you'd been around the program and given as much as I have" line of BS. Some of us weren't born that long ago, some of us don't have the means. Commitment isn't measured by a date of birth or a bank account. I'm glad for those that have enjoyed a long time of Marquette success and done well for themselves, but that doesn't make you a better fan than anyone else on here.
Good stuff brew.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 03, 2017, 07:58:55 AM
They contributed to it, but it was Buzz that made that roster. Buzz recruited Derrick, Juan, Steve, Mayo, Dawson, Eonte, and the rest of them. Carlino was our best player and the only actual Wojo recruit.
Beyond that, it was on the administration that gave Pilarz and Williams their marching orders. When they left, it was on Robert Wild and Bill Cords, who didn't relax the restrictions Buzz felt were too much to deal with.
And why did those marching orders come out? Back to Buzz recruiting players that couldn't have graduated under any circumstance.
I know you don't care about that stuff, but the powers that be do. It's absolutely something that reflects on the University, and the basketball program is an extension and representation of the University, not the other way around.
At the end of the day, blame Buzz. He recruited those players and his recruiting decisions made the Pilarz/Williams direction necessary in the first place. Yes, we bottomed out under Wojo, but that would've happened whether the coach was Wojo, Buzz, or Al McGuire.
You are on fire. That's 100% accurate.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 03, 2017, 05:14:57 AM
What about the fact that Buzz was lauded for the same thing? The play style of the Amigos, Midgets, and the first Sweet 16 teams were dramatically different. So it's a plus for Buzz and a negative for Wojo?
Here's the way I see it. There are people that were against Wojo from there start. Whether it's the Duke background (and I suspect that's 99.9% of it), the lack of experience, or not a flashy name, they simply won't come around.
Those same people aren't fans of his perceived lack of openness. Like K, he's built a wall around the program and is a fairly stale interview. These are the same people who were raised on Al, reborn under KO, and felt they'd found a spiritual successor in Buzz. While they certainly value winning, they want Marquette to do so in an interesting, eccentric way. They hate the idea of Marquette being a bland, disciplined program as much as they hate seeing Marquette lose.
That's why they can't embrace Wojo and why they diminish his accomplishments. By any measurement, Wojo has shown continued improvement and success the past three years. If you aren't excited about players like Howard and Hauser (as well as Henry last year) then honestly what do you want? This is progress, and anyone around the program that doesn't see it is choosing to be willfully blind.
And last point, I'm really sick of the whole "if you'd been around the program and given as much as I have" line of BS. Some of us weren't born that long ago, some of us don't have the means. Commitment isn't measured by a date of birth or a bank account. I'm glad for those that have enjoyed a long time of Marquette success and done well for themselves, but that doesn't make you a better fan than anyone else on here.
Hear, Hear!
Quote from: cheebs09 on March 03, 2017, 08:51:18 AM
I don't think Mayo helped Buzz's case either. He didn't cause anything to change from a JUCO perspective, but I doubt he helped the Buzz/Administration relationship.
Yep. Excellent point.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on March 03, 2017, 08:48:34 AM
Players is correct. Dwight Buycks couldn't have graduated during his eligibility either. He ended up graduating so I don't think it really matters.
I'm not certain that's right Sultan. I had though Buycks was on track when he arrived. I might be wrong. Look, don't really want to speak about some of our Jucos too much but let's just say that post DJO and Jimmy, the BOT started to wonder if the way Buzz was proceeding was the best thing given the mission of the university. Certainly 'reservations' about Jae were totally unrelated relative to 'reservations' about Todd.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 03, 2017, 08:45:25 AM
So Buzz brought in one player (not players, as you posted) without a reasonable chance to graduate during his eligibility and this = bringing restrictions on himself.
Do you suppose the recruitment of Henry (and his brother, for that matter) will result in "restrictions" on Wojo? Sure hope not.
You brought up Jae, then blame me for using him as an example? ?-(
And Henry not graduating is different than seniors not graduating. The key is to keep players on track to graduate as long as they're here. Jae wasn't the only player with that problem. And in his case, not his fault.
Quote from: cheebs09 on March 03, 2017, 08:51:18 AM
I don't think Mayo helped Buzz's case either. He didn't cause anything to change from a JUCO perspective, but I doubt he helped the Buzz/Administration relationship.
Honestly, I think he was a bigger part of the problem than Jae was. Buzz got in a bit over his head with that one.
Here's one of the things I LOVE about Wojo. Ya'll remember Juan and Derrick his first year as coach? I don't think Wojo ever said an unkind word about either. It didn't matter that neither was a legitimate high major basketball player. They couldn't do anything about that. What mattered is that they are fine individuals who represented our university with honor. And coach knew and appreciated that.
Heck, too bad neither made it back to the alumni game. Next year, hopefully.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 03, 2017, 09:09:00 AM
You brought up Jae, then blame me for using him as an example? ?-(
And Henry not graduating is different than seniors not graduating. The key is to keep players on track to graduate as long as they're here. Jae wasn't the only player with that problem. And in his case, not his fault.
Ding, ding.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 03, 2017, 09:10:58 AM
Honestly, I think he was a bigger part of the problem than Jae was. Buzz got in a bit over his head with that one.
Nobody had anything but the highest regard for Jae. It was simply the fact that graduation was 'impossible' and that didn't fit the university mission well. Todd (and 1-2 others), on the other hand.....
Quote from: jsglow on March 03, 2017, 09:11:19 AM
Here's one of the things I LOVE about Wojo. Ya'll remember Juan and Derrick his first year as coach? I don't think Wojo ever said an unkind word about either. I didn't matter that neither was a legitimate high major basketball players. They couldn't do anything about that. What mattered is that they are fine individuals who represented our university with honor. And coach knew and appreciated that.
Heck, too bad neither made it back to the alumni game. Next year, hopefully.
Thanks, for bringing that, sometime things go unnoticed.
brew
Agreed on much of your post. Especially the length of time being a fan or size of a bank account. I can say with 100% confidence that I have never told a younger or older fan to basically get off this site. Over the past several months I have been told that by several folks on here. I am no better of a fan than anyone, and actually probably not as good as many here. That said, I do believe that respect should be a given to ALL posters on here.
I will say I find your post to be a tad ironic. I just read many, many PM's that you sent me during "difficult" times over the years looking for the inside scoop. The promise to this "old" fan, from you, that you would keep our talks confidential cracks me up.
Quote from: jsglow on March 03, 2017, 09:11:19 AM
Here's one of the things I LOVE about Wojo. Ya'll remember Juan and Derrick his first year as coach? I don't think Wojo ever said an unkind word about either. I didn't matter that neither was a legitimate high major basketball player. They couldn't do anything about that. What mattered is that they are fine individuals who represented our university with honor. And coach knew and appreciated that.
Heck, too bad neither made it back to the alumni game. Next year, hopefully.
I couldn't agree more. And for all the de-motivator talk, we have seen Derrick, Juan, Luke, Markus, Katin, Henry, Cheatham (and maybe I'm missing some) all run over after big wins and embrace Wojo. These guys clearly do not dislike him.
Quote from: frozena pizza on March 03, 2017, 08:43:35 AM
On the point about people wanting the program to be eccentric, I never really agreed with this. It sounds cool in isolation but we are not in the 70s anymore and the McGuire days are long gone. Eccentricity comes with volatility, friction, and short relationships. You can't have a conservative, Catholic, midwestern institution and expect it to always get a long with coaches that want free reign to speak their minds and ruffle feathers. It's just not going to last in an era where players can tweet whatever pops into their minds and everyone wants to know everything that happens behind closed doors. I'll take a boring Wojo who conducts himself and the program with class any day.
No doubt that Al at times (KO and Buzz, too) made the administration uncomfortable. OTOH, Bob Dukiet was an easy going piano playing get along guy.
The fact is that our program has thrived under eccentric leaders - even Tom Crean was odd, though not in a good way. Wojo is the administration's dream coach - young, Duke pedigree, wears blue blazers and gray slacks and never says anything controversial or even interesting. A good guy, a solid guy, a careful guy - he reminds of former Notre Dame coach Bob Davie.
Can we win big without an administration and a leader willing to push the envelope a little? Hope so, but that's not our history.
For those comparing Dukiet to Buzz...
KO inherited a program that had not made the NCAAs in 6 years
Wojo inherited a program that had made the Elite 8 a year before his arrival
It's not just about players (though JJJ, Deonte, Duane and Luke as underclassmen aren't all bad) it's about the state of the program.
Wojo could walk into living rooms armed with
Top 5 Conference
State of the Art facilities
Recent string of 8 straight dances
Recent string of 3 straight S16s
Jordan Brand
4 stand out NBA players
Huge operating and recruiting budget
If you wonder why Goose and others have high expectations of the program, look at those stats.
Quote from: Goose on March 03, 2017, 09:16:03 AMI will say I find your post to be a tad ironic. I just read many, many PM's that you sent me during "difficult" times over the years looking for the inside scoop. The promise to this "old" fan, from you, that you would keep our talks confidential cracks me up.
I don't save all my PMs, so no idea what I've made public that we've discussed. If it came specifically from you I apologize.
Quote from: The Lens on March 03, 2017, 09:21:22 AM
For those comparing Dukiet to Buzz...
KO inherited a program that had not made the NCAAs in 6 years
Wojo inherited a program that had made the Elite 8 a year before his arrival
It's not just about players (though JJJ, Deonte, Duane and Luke as underclassmen aren't all bad) it's about the state of the program.
Wojo could walk into living rooms armed with
Top 5 Conference
State of the Art facilities
Recent string of 8 straight dances
Recent string of 3 straight S16s
Jordan Brand
4 stand out NBA players
Huge operating and recruiting budget
If you wonder why Goose and other have high expectations of the program, look at those stats.
These stats are hugely beneficial from a recruiting standpoint, and probably part of the reason Wojo has done a good job in that aspect.
But those stats are largely irrelevant to immediate on court performance. Only the roster matters at that point. And our roster was crap.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 03, 2017, 09:09:00 AM
You brought up Jae, then blame me for using him as an example? ?-(
You said PLAYERS, as if it was multiple guys, or, worse yet, the rule of thumb. That fact is it was one (1) player, Jae Crowder.
Quote from: The Lens on March 03, 2017, 09:21:22 AM
For those comparing Dukiet to Buzz...
KO inherited a program that had not made the NCAAs in 6 years
Wojo inherited a program that had made the Elite 8 a year before his arrival
It's not just about players (though JJJ, Deonte, Duane and Luke as underclassmen aren't all bad) it's about the state of the program.
Wojo could walk into living rooms armed with
Top 5 Conference
State of the Art facilities
Recent string of 8 straight dances
Recent string of 3 straight S16s
Jordan Brand
4 stand out NBA players
Huge operating and recruiting budget
If you wonder why Goose and other have high expectations of the program, look at those stats.
Everyone has high expectations.
What if Jae redshirted? I know, a silly hypothetical. But Jae could have redshirted, been on track to graduate, and then turn pro after his RS-Junior year. Then we could all feel better about the MU mission statement. Sure we'd probably miss the tournament in 2011, and that would mean no miracle Sweet 16 run.
Plus, "Henry could have graduated had he stayed 4 years" is simply mental gymnastics to trick yourself into not feeling like a hypocrite. From my point of view, the BOT is a bunch of hypocrites for viewing Jae and Henry differently.
Personally, I'm happy both played at MU.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 03, 2017, 09:19:26 AM
No doubt that Al at times (KO and Buzz, too) made the administration uncomfortable. OTOH, Bob Dukiet was an easy going piano playing get along guy.
The fact is that our program has thrived under eccentric leaders - even Tom Crean was odd, though not in a good way. Wojo is the administration's dream coach - young, Duke pedigree, wears blue blazers and gray slacks and never says anything controversial or even interesting. A good guy, a solid guy, a careful guy - he reminds of former Notre Dame coach Bob Davie.
Can we win big without an administration and a leader willing to push the envelope a little? Hope so, but that's not our history.
But it IS the Duke way. And with our facilities, budget, and conference that CAN (not necessarily WILL) be the Marquette way.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on March 03, 2017, 09:27:10 AM
What if Jae redshirted? I know, a silly hypothetical. But Jae could have redshirted, been on track to graduate, and then turn pro after his RS-Junior year. Then we could all feel better about the MU mission statement. Sure we'd probably miss the tournament in 2011, and that would mean no miracle Sweet 16 run.
Plus, "Henry could have graduated had he stayed 4 years" is simply mental gymnastics to trick yourself into not feeling like a hypocrite. From my point of view, the BOT is a bunch of hypocrites for viewing Jae and Henry differently.
Personally, I'm happy both played at MU.
Except Jae and Todd negatively impact our APR score. Henry doesn't. (I think I have that correct.)
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on March 03, 2017, 08:04:07 AM
Slightly different topic, but I wonder if Wojo would have handled Deonte differently now that he has more experience under his belt. Of all the transfers out, he really is the only one that I look back and think "what could have been." With the driving lanes that are opening up with these shooters? And it's not like his defense was any worse than some of the other players on this team.
but Burton would have exhausted his eligibility before Wojo was able to get shooters to open the driving lanes.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 03, 2017, 09:25:39 AM
You said PLAYERS, as if it was multiple guys, or, worse yet, the rule of thumb. That fact is it was one (1) player, Jae Crowder.
I have heard about more than one. And other academic issues accompanying that only made things worse.
Quote from: Waldo Jeffers on March 03, 2017, 09:31:16 AM
but Burton would have exhausted his eligibility before Wojo was able to get shooters to open the driving lanes.
He'd be a senior this year. Same class as JJJ and Duane (who redshirted.)
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on March 03, 2017, 09:32:00 AM
He'd be a senior this year. Same class as JJJ and Duane (who redshirted.)
Thanks, I knew I should have checked before posting that.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on March 03, 2017, 09:27:10 AMPlus, "Henry could have graduated had he stayed 4 years" is simply mental gymnastics to trick yourself into not feeling like a hypocrite. From my point of view, the BOT is a bunch of hypocrites for viewing Jae and Henry differently.
Personally, I'm happy both played at MU.
That's also the NCAA standard, which has led to APR suspensions for other programs in the past, so kind of hard to label following NCAA standards as hypocritical.
I'm also happy both played here. I don't blame Jae for his circumstance and honestly, if he was putting in the work to get as close to graduating as possible, I think that's what should be the expectation.
But I'm not part of the NCAA regulations committee nor a member of Marquette's BOT.
Quote from: jsglow on March 03, 2017, 09:27:39 AM
But it IS the Duke way. And with our facilities, budget, and conference that CAN (not necessarily WILL) be the Marquette way.
Yes, it is the Duke way. And no doubt the plan is to become "Duke North". IMO that plan, that vision of the university and the basketball program, is unrealistic.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on March 03, 2017, 09:30:58 AM
Except Jae and Todd negatively impact our APR score. Henry doesn't. (I think I have that correct.)
True. Needing to keep the APR up is a better argument than graduate vs not graduate. But staying away from academic sanctions is important to benefit the basketball team. Graduating players is a nice bonus.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 03, 2017, 09:38:03 AM
Yes, it is the Duke way. And no doubt the plan is to become "Duke North". IMO that plan, that vision of the university and the basketball program, is unrealistic.
Am I missing something? Are they sacrificing talent to bring players in here?
I would agree with you if we had a bunch of mid-major players running around out there, but we don't.
Brew
You never shared any PM info, just thought it was funny and ironic that you at one point felt I was worth PMing for scoop and now tired of the type of fan I am. Trust me, I have zero problem with you. Just thought it was quite amusing on things turn over time.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on March 03, 2017, 09:27:10 AM
What if Jae redshirted? I know, a silly hypothetical. But Jae could have redshirted, been on track to graduate, and then turn pro after his RS-Junior year. Then we could all feel better about the MU mission statement. Sure we'd probably miss the tournament in 2011, and that would mean no miracle Sweet 16 run.
Plus, "Henry could have graduated had he stayed 4 years" is simply mental gymnastics to trick yourself into not feeling like a hypocrite. From my point of view, the BOT is a bunch of hypocrites for viewing Jae and Henry differently.
Personally, I'm happy both played at MU.
I'm sorry. That's simply a poorly thought out position in my opinion.
Every year, 2,000 Freshmen show up on campus. ALL have the opportunity to pursue a Bachelor's degree and to complete that course of study over four years. Marquette takes GREAT PRIDE in the fact that all students can avoid the dreaded Super Senior status if they work hard and remain flexible with individual course selection. That's no longer true at some of the big state schools because of budget limitations and cutbacks.
Now do ALL of those 2,000 kids graduate? No, of course not. Some leave school because they flunk out. Some leave school because they run out of money. Some decide that MU isn't a good fit and transfer. Marquette tracks the 6 year graduation rate (the industry standard) and is near the very top of all institutions in the country. Like VERY near the top (I just don't have the stats handy.)
So when an Admissions counselor tells a family that their kid has been admitted, they can honestly say to that family that their kid has genuine prospects for graduating with a MU degree and back it up. Every student in every field is given the chance to earn their degree. Direct Admit programs (like Nursing) further that objective.
Henry had that chance, just like 1,999 others. It was HIS decision not to do that. No deviation from the mission whatsoever.
(Sorry if I take this a little personally. I served for a few years on the Admissions Advisory Board although was not involved in the 'Jae matter'.)
Lenny
Duke North? How about UW East, first. Lets take some baby steps and be realistic.
Quote from: BallBoy on March 02, 2017, 09:28:45 PM
Lack of Track Record - Name one coach in the last 40 years that had a better track record prior to Marquette and had success. The closest is Mike Deane who coached powerhouse Siena prior to taking over. He was not successful. Crean was a high level assistant coach with less experience. Buzz had less experience. Crean struggled in a lower league before getting the ship correct. Wojo is more experienced then both and he inherited a team not nearly as good as Buzz had.
Lack of Significant player improvement - Matt Heldt has gotten significantly better. Markus Howard is very good. Hauser is very good. If you look at the team Wojo's players are the best players on the team. Year over year his teams have gotten much better. That is what is important.
Different Teams - He has had different teams. He inherited a very limited team and had to go get a fifth year senior just to be competitive. Year 2 he had a first round NBA player who was one and done. He left and started over. Each year the team has gotten better and he is starting to build steam.
Let's be honest. Those people who don't like Wojo don't like him because of Duke.
First, you are reading way to much into my response. The question was why is there a lack of confidence in Wojo. I took that to ask why are there doubts, and my answer addressed why those doubts exist. I understand there are those calling for Wojo's head. I am not. I am simply not sold on him. In part, because he has not been a head coach before. That's it. Yes, lots of assistants get their first head job and do well, lots of old coaches move and fail. I was simply pointing to Wojo's lack of a track record as a factor leading to a lack of confidence.
I will give you Heldt's improvement over the past games. I don't see how you can do a year to year analysis of the freshman you otherwise rely upon. I like Howard and Hauser and hope they improve next year, you know, when next year gets here.
The vastly different teams is simply an indication that I don't have a clear vision of the style Wojo wants to play. If he wants a lock down defensive team then I have serious questions given the poor defense played for the past three years. Maybe he has adjusted to fit the rosters--I hope so, but since he really hasn't had a full or balanced roster yet I have questions. That's it.
As for the Duke thing, I see that as no more reason to be confident as to be critical, and never mentioned it.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 03, 2017, 08:32:17 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection is one player who didn't have a realistic chance of graduating in the last semester of his eligibility.
Of course, everyone also knew when Henry Ellenson was signed there was zero chance he'd ever graduate but the powers that be and the scolds on Scoop viewed that very differently.
I was grateful to have both Jae and Henry.
There is a huge (YUGE!) difference between a player who will likely choose to not graduate and a player for whom it is impossible to graduate.
And while there was only one who it was literally impossible, there were others who everyone knew that barring an epiphany from god, were never going to graduate. There were also disciplinary issues with some of Buzz' recruits.
I'm not like Chicos and saying the program was out of control dirty. I think there were some issues that needed to be addressed. I think Larry was heavy handed but not unreasonable in his response. The resulting feud between him and Buzz is what set us on the path to today.
Connie and Everyone Else,
I love winners and I LOVE Duke. No argument from this guy if Wojo makes MU into Duke. Who in their right mind would not want that? Anyone that thinks otherwise is not thinking straight.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 03, 2017, 09:10:58 AM
Honestly, I think he was a bigger part of the problem than Jae was. Buzz got in a bit over his head with that one.
Agreed
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 03, 2017, 09:54:14 AM
There is a huge (YUGE!) difference between a player who will likely choose to not graduate and a player for whom it is impossible to graduate.
And while there was only one who it was literally impossible, there were others who everyone knew that barring an epiphany from god, were never going to graduate. There were also disciplinary issues with some of Buzz' recruits.
I'm not like Chicos and saying the program was out of control dirty. I think there were some issues that needed to be addressed. I think Larry was heavy handed but not unreasonable in his response. The resulting feud between him and Buzz is what set us on the path to today.
+1
Quote from: Goose on March 03, 2017, 09:52:15 AM
Lenny
Duke North? How about UW East, first. Lets take some baby steps and be realistic.
UW is barely better than us right now, if they even are better.
I know, I know. Last 3 years, consistency. But if we're looking soley at trajectory... UW has gotten worse each of the last three years. Currently lost 6 of 7 games. They lose 4 senior starters. They don't exactly have a bunch of reinforcements coming in, although they do have a good recruiting class. They have a new coach who is still a question mark.
We have a new coach that's still a question mark. We're young. We have improved each of the last three years.
Obviously the starting points were two different extremes. Just playing devil's advocate.
Glow-
You are talking about the general student population. The basketball team falls into a different bucket.
Historically, MU has taken basketball players that would not be admitted as general students. Not all but some. Wade is probably the best example. An ACT of 17 or 18 is typically not accepted. But Wade could play basketball so he got admitted. Wade even faired well in the classroom. But I don't see how Wade would be admitted if he wasn't a basketball player.
If you have information of MU accepting academic risks that are not athletes, I'd love to hear some stats. Until then, I view it as apples and oranges.
I have no problem with recruiting great basketball players that are also great students. Markus Howard hits high marks in both regards. But I'm also not naive about men's basketball players getting a little leeway, at least in the past.
Now I have a question for you. Why was Jae Crowder admitted in the first place? To admit Crowder and then place restrictions based on Crowder's inability to graduate is the very definition of hypocrisy! Please enlighten me if you know more.
MU Eagle
I would love to have UW's athletic department and academic reputation at MU. Long way to go on both fronts, just being honest.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on March 03, 2017, 09:27:10 AM
What if Jae redshirted? I know, a silly hypothetical. But Jae could have redshirted, been on track to graduate, and then turn pro after his RS-Junior year. Then we could all feel better about the MU mission statement. Sure we'd probably miss the tournament in 2011, and that would mean no miracle Sweet 16 run.
Plus, "Henry could have graduated had he stayed 4 years" is simply mental gymnastics to trick yourself into not feeling like a hypocrite. From my point of view, the BOT is a bunch of hypocrites for viewing Jae and Henry differently.
Personally, I'm happy both played at MU.
My understanding of Jae's situation was that it was so bad that even if he had redshirted, it would have still been impossible barring maxing out credits every semester including the summer.
As I said elsewhere, there is an enormous difference between impossible to graduate and choose not to graduate. One is the university taking advantage of a student's ability to play ball and the other is a student declining a benefit offered to him.
Jae is a great human being and representative of the university. I'm glad he played here. It worked out because he became an NBA player. If he hadn't and had been left with no college degree or work experience other than playing basketball....I might feel differently. I don't think it was unreasonable for the university to say "from now on, only players for whom it is at least possible to graduate."
The other reality is that several of Buzz' players could have graduated....but it was pretty much known that they wouldn't because they simply didn't have the academic ability to do so. I am more comfortable with that but it is still a concern, especially when it starts to affect APR scores.
Then there were disciplinary issues with some recruits. Todd didn't go to six high schools because he liked to move around. Malik Harris was an arsonist. There was another recruit, I don't remember which one, but he was accused of multiple sexual assaults. Buzz still wanted him to come in, university had to say no.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on March 03, 2017, 09:43:13 AM
Am I missing something? Are they sacrificing talent to bring players in here?
I would agree with you if we had a bunch of mid-major players running around out there, but we don't.
I think the talent Wojo has here right now spans the spectrum from elite (Markus) to solid (Sam, Katin, Rowsey) to ? (Haanif, Sacar, Matt).
Next year's guys I don't know enough about to venture a guess.
But to answer your question - not mid major guys nor guys (with the exception of Markus) who could get 10+ minutes a game at the "real" Duke.
We'll never see consistent talent at MU like we did in the late 60s through the 70s - too much competition. But Buzz proved we could get at least fairly close. Hope we can recreate that success - jury's still out.
Marquette:
WE CAN'T HAVE ANOTHER JAE!!! WHAT A DISASTER!
Marquette Social Media:
LET'S WISH BOSTON CELTIC JAE CROWDER A HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!! YES THAT JAE CROWDER, HE PLAYED FOR US AND NOW HE'S IN THE NBA! NBA! NBA! JAE! JAE! #mubb
Quote from: The Lens on March 03, 2017, 10:17:42 AM
Marquette:
WE CAN'T HAVE ANOTHER JAE!!! WHAT A DISASTER!
Marquette Social Media:
LET'S WISH BOSTON CELTIC JAE CROWDER A HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!! YES THAT JAE CROWDER, HE PLAYED FOR US AND NOW HE'S IN THE NBA! NBA! NBA! JAE! JAE! #mubb
Perfect! All this "I love Jae, I just don't what his kind at Marquette" stuff is nauseating.
Lens and Lenny
+1
You guys are spot on!!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 03, 2017, 10:22:54 AM
Perfect! All this "I love Jae, I just don't what his kind at Marquette" stuff is nauseating.
+1
Fact - both HE and Jae used us for their gain and accepting them into the school was beneficial for Marquette. The end result was two kids we should all remain proud of today. Nothing wrong with that.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 03, 2017, 10:29:30 AM
+1
Fact - both HE and Jae used us for their gain and accepting them into the school was beneficial for Marquette. The end result was two kids we should all remain proud of today. Nothing wrong with that.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 03, 2017, 10:22:54 AM
Perfect! All this "I love Jae, I just don't what his kind at Marquette" stuff is nauseating.
So if Jae hadn't made the NBA or Europe, and ended up on the street with no degree and no job skills would you still be comfortable?
Would you also be comfortable if our APR scores dropped enough that we ended up suspended?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 03, 2017, 10:35:02 AM
So if Jae hadn't made the NBA or Europe, and ended up on the street with no degree and no job skills would you still be comfortable?
Would you also be comfortable if our APR scores dropped enough that we ended up suspended?
When you bring in the National Juco POY, he's going to have to screw up pretty bad to be homeless and out on the streets. Furthermore, I would hope / expect that MU would allow him to pursue his degree on our dime for as long as it takes him. That's what a program that spends Top 5 money should do. The opportunity for free education shouldn't end when eligibility is up.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 03, 2017, 10:35:02 AM
So if Jae hadn't made the NBA or Europe, and ended up on the street with no degree and no job skills would you still be comfortable?
Would you also be comfortable if our APR scores dropped enough that we ended up suspended?
Actually I would rather fix the problem. 1. All kids meet min NCAA academic standards to play (already do this), 2. Give these kids scholarships that guarantee the ability to finish their degree even if they drop the last semester to pursue the draft or need more time to finish (new)
Second I expect MU to meet the APR standards - so do that and don't take all players that cant finish (pretty sure we already do that)
You want to care for the kids - give them a safety net while shooting for their dream job - dont stick your head in the sand and choose HE over Jae.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on March 03, 2017, 10:10:24 AM
Glow-
You are talking about the general student population. The basketball team falls into a different bucket.
Historically, MU has taken basketball players that would not be admitted as general students. Not all but some. Wade is probably the best example. An ACT of 17 or 18 is typically not accepted. But Wade could play basketball so he got admitted. Wade even faired well in the classroom. But I don't see how Wade would be admitted if he wasn't a basketball player.
If you have information of MU accepting academic risks that are not athletes, I'd love to hear some stats. Until then, I view it as apples and oranges.
I have no problem with recruiting great basketball players that are also great students. Markus Howard hits high marks in both regards. But I'm also not naive about men's basketball players getting a little leeway, at least in the past.
Now I have a question for you. Why was Jae Crowder admitted in the first place? To admit Crowder and then place restrictions based on Crowder's inability to graduate is the very definition of hypocrisy! Please enlighten me if you know more.
I'll try to answer your question this way. Yes, it is true that basketball players are held to a different entrance standard than the typical 'general population' kid. But that's not by some edict. There's no rule that I'm aware of that says a kid with a 20 ACT can't be admitted to the general population. But I acknowledge that typically doesn't happen. Truth be told, I believe but am not certain, that MU Athletic scholarship individuals (all sports) graduate at a HIGHER rate than 'general population' kids.
Here's another example. Every year that I can remember the highest entrance threshold is into Nursing. Highest class rank, highest HS GPA, highest ACT, etc. So what that the 'general population' threshold in Arts & Sciences is lower and that kids that can't get into Nursing, Engineering or Business can still get a MU Degree?
Lastly, I'm pretty confident that the Jae issue hadn't come up before, at least any time recently. Marquette simply hadn't thought about it previously. And once it happened, the decision was ultimately made that we wouldn't do that again and the line was drawn where it seemingly is today. (I'm not privy to everything. I never sat in a meeting where this topic was discussed directly.)
And any of ya'll that graduated around 1990 ish. Go back and look at those stats sometime. Marquette was simply trying to stay solvent. Half of you would have been at Parkside or Oshkosh today. You know who you are. ;D
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 03, 2017, 10:29:30 AM
+1
Fact - both HE and Jae used us for their gain and accepting them into the school was beneficial for Marquette. The end result was two kids we should all remain proud of today. Nothing wrong with that.
Absolutely. None of this is or should be about the merits of either person.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 03, 2017, 10:15:33 AM
I think the talent Wojo has here right now spans the spectrum from elite (Markus) to solid (Sam, Katin, Rowsey) to ? (Haanif, Sacar, Matt).
Next year's guys I don't know enough about to venture a guess.
But to answer your question - not mid major guys nor guys (with the exception of Markus) who could get 10+ minutes a game at the "real" Duke.
We'll never see consistent talent at MU like we did in the late 60s through the 70s - too much competition. But Buzz proved we could get at least fairly close. Hope we can recreate that success - jury's still out.
Yes the jury is still out. Stop assuming good basketball players and a Duke-lite are mutually exclusive.
Quote from: Goose on March 03, 2017, 10:11:00 AM
MU Eagle
I would love to have UW's athletic department and academic reputation at MU. Long way to go on both fronts, just being honest.
Having attended both universities (please don't hate me), I have to agree with this. While MU is well above average and considered reputable for academics and athletics, we just don't quite compare to what UW brings to the table. Size and resources play a role for sure, but there are other smaller schools that can compete for both students and athletes at the highest level.
I would love to see some of the investments at MU begin to pay dividends in the coming years in terms of academic achievement, and I think there's a real possibility for that. But we do still have a ways to go to get to a UW-East-esque status. In terms of the athletics program, I think we've seen some great strides from some of the lesser known sports - men's lacrosse, women's track come to mind - but getting some sustained consistency in the men's basketball program would be huge for us. I get that we're viewed as a stepping stone kind of school, and I don't know if that will ever change, but keeping a successful coach for more than a few years would really help build the kind of program we all want year in and year out.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on March 03, 2017, 10:47:58 AM
Yes the jury is still out. Stop assuming good basketball players and a Duke-lite are mutually exclusive.
Never assumed that. If Duke Lite and good basketball players are the goal I think we can even say "Mission Accomplished". If Duke North and great players are the goal there's a long, long way to go - and I'm not convinced that model is realistic.
skianth16
As much I want to see MU ball be a national powerhouse, I would be equally as proud to see them an academic powerhouse. My gripe has been that I believe both fall way too short of the finish line. Also, I have said a million times, but if one Jae can make a difference on the court, very possibly that difference is felt by the entire university. IMO the basketball program should be a tool used to create academic excellence.
If MU has an academic powerhouse I would NEVER, EVER bitch about the basketball program.
This thread has gone in an interesting direction.
Practically speaking Marquette like many schools (and more-so) offers a degree in basketball to its recruits.
They also offer degrees in other things if the Athletes are so inclined...players come here to be an engineer or with eligibility get a Masters...that's great.
But make no mistake, its big business as Marquette and if players come here with eyes wide open and see that...and use it to make a way to Pro basketball...so be it.
Having said that there is such a thing as character and rules and following the rules. We should expect that from players even if their degree is basketball.
From all I know about Jae...seen on the court and in the media...my son went to MU at same time and gives good reports of interaction.... Jae has good character...he came here for a degree in basketball. He graduated with highest honors (if you know what I mean).
I wonder how long the pretense can last that there isn't basketball degrees but just science and philosophy and social work and biology and math...
...furthermore on Jae Crowder.
I don't know him personally but I read about how he has been an asset to Celtic basketball...he played a key role in "recruiting" Durant for the Celtics (obviously didn't go that way). He and Stevens and Tom Brady put on a full court press.
If I were an NBA VP, I would be like "Man I want that guy on my team!"
I think Jae got a Masters.
Bravo, Big Dance!
Quote from: Goose on March 03, 2017, 09:47:09 AM
Brew
You never shared any PM info, just thought it was funny and ironic that you at one point felt I was worth PMing for scoop and now tired of the type of fan I am. Trust me, I have zero problem with you. Just thought it was quite amusing on things turn over time.
I still think you're worth talking to and don't want to drive you off, but I don't think fandom is a measuring contest. I'm not a fan of that method of proving oneself. We disagree on some stuff, agree on probably more than we realize, and I think you're an important part of the board. I don't think your commitment to Marquette is to be questioned, but many others are also committed.
brew
All good and I enjoy 95% of your posts. Trust me, my level of fan is not higher than anyone else on here. If I feel I am being bashed I throw out my length of time as a fan card. Truthfully, who cares?
Quote from: Goose on March 03, 2017, 11:59:47 AM
brew
All good and I enjoy 95% of your posts. Trust me, my level of fan is not higher than anyone else on here. If I feel I am being bashed I throw out my length of time as a fan card. Truthfully, who cares?
Given that a majority of Brew's posts are from deep his eQP% (effective Quality Post Percentage) is well over 100%. Impressive.
Quote from: MUBigDance on March 03, 2017, 11:34:42 AM
This thread has gone in an interesting direction.
Practically speaking Marquette like many schools (and more-so) offers a degree in basketball to its recruits.
They also offer degrees in other things if the Athletes are so inclined...players come here to be an engineer or with eligibility get a Masters...that's great.
But make no mistake, its big business as Marquette and if players come here with eyes wide open and see that...and use it to make a way to Pro basketball...so be it.
Having said that there is such a thing as character and rules and following the rules. We should expect that from players even if their degree is basketball.
From all I know about Jae...seen on the court and in the media...my son went to MU at same time and gives good reports of interaction.... Jae has good character...he came here for a degree in basketball. He graduated with highest honors (if you know what I mean).
I wonder how long the pretense can last that there isn't basketball degrees but just science and philosophy and social work and biology and math...
Jae's a great guy from an outstanding family. Let's add one thing to the mix. His issue was the fact that he went to an unaccredited school his Frosh year. I got to spend some considerable time with Jae's granddad down in Louisville. Wonderful guy.
So a basketball player or two doesnt graduate..seriously how does that reflect on MU? There's athletes at every school dont graduate. Does that reflect poorly on them? Hell no. You know why? Because outside of MU fans and Badger fans who look to jump on anything negative MU..who pays attention to that sort of thing anyway? No one.
When announcers are doing an NBA game that involves Jae and they mention that he went to Marquette they don't then mention that he never graduated. No one cares..seriously they dont. And if MU is so arrogant, stuck up and snobish that they think they "should be better than everyone else that way" then theres a problem. Plain and simple.
Quote from: MUBigDance on March 03, 2017, 11:34:42 AM
This thread has gone in an interesting direction.
Practically speaking Marquette like many schools (and more-so) offers a degree in basketball to its recruits.
They also offer degrees in other things if the Athletes are so inclined...players come here to be an engineer or with eligibility get a Masters...that's great.
But make no mistake, its big business as Marquette and if players come here with eyes wide open and see that...and use it to make a way to Pro basketball...so be it.
Having said that there is such a thing as character and rules and following the rules. We should expect that from players even if their degree is basketball.
From all I know about Jae...seen on the court and in the media...my son went to MU at same time and gives good reports of interaction.... Jae has good character...he came here for a degree in basketball. He graduated with highest honors (if you know what I mean).
I wonder how long the pretense can last that there isn't basketball degrees but just science and philosophy and social work and biology and math...
We actually have a pretty good academic support program. The basketball kids who come to MU stay for four years and graduate end up being pretty good people. One of the things I liked most about Buzz was he really had that old school philosophy of looking at the whole person. I think he took great pride when a kid like Junior Cadougan was able to overcome a lot in life and graduate successfully with a worthwhile degree.
My general experience over the years is that the kids who value the education are usually pretty good players over a period of time.
Quote from: MUBigDance on March 03, 2017, 11:34:42 AM
This thread has gone in an interesting direction.
Practically speaking Marquette like many schools (and more-so) offers a degree in basketball to its recruits.
They also offer degrees in other things if the Athletes are so inclined...players come here to be an engineer or with eligibility get a Masters...that's great.
But make no mistake, its big business as Marquette and if players come here with eyes wide open and see that...and use it to make a way to Pro basketball...so be it.
Having said that there is such a thing as character and rules and following the rules. We should expect that from players even if their degree is basketball.
From all I know about Jae...seen on the court and in the media...my son went to MU at same time and gives good reports of interaction.... Jae has good character...he came here for a degree in basketball. He graduated with highest honors (if you know what I mean).
I wonder how long the pretense can last that there isn't basketball degrees but just science and philosophy and social work and biology and math...
Ulice Payne and Al Jr. have done pretty well outside of basketball. I am sure there are others that just don't come to mind.
Quote from: Goose on March 02, 2017, 05:44:51 PM
Little choice but try and be positive. This is not the program I would like to see, but hoping Wojo delivers the goods.
The second sentence here doesn't sound as if you're trying very hard to be positive. Nor do I know what you mean by it. Care to expound, please?
Quote from: muguru on March 03, 2017, 01:58:09 PM
So a basketball player or two doesnt graduate..seriously how does that reflect on MU? There's athletes at every school dont graduate. Does that reflect poorly on them? Hell no. You know why? Because outside of MU fans and Badger fans who look to jump on anything negative MU..who pays attention to that sort of thing anyway? No one.
When announcers are doing an NBA game that involves Jae and they mention that he went to Marquette they don't then mention that he never graduated. No one cares..seriously they dont. And if MU is so arrogant, stuck up and snobish that they think they "should be better than everyone else that way" then theres a problem. Plain and simple.
I don't think it is "snobbish" to only admit players that have a chance to graduate? Good lord.
Marquette can embrace Jae and what he did for MU and what he is doing now in the NBA, but also say "it would be difficult to admit someone with that academic background in the future." That isn't arrogant, snobbish or even hypocritical.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on March 04, 2017, 12:26:11 PM
I don't think it is "snobbish" to only admit players that have a chance to graduate? Good lord.
Marquette can embrace Jae and what he did for MU and what he is doing now in the NBA, but also say "it would be difficult to admit someone with that academic background in the future." That isn't arrogant, snobbish or even hypocritical.
Exactly. Anything less and a university is simply exploiting the talent of the players.
I don't think a lot of people posting here know how APR works and the consequences of not complying.