Since the Badger game I've been thinking a lot about how long rebuilding should take and where Wojo is on that path, is he moving more slowly because he knows he has the long term support of the Marquette admin etc.?
First in the last 30 years we've had 3 head coach changes were the coach was effectively asked to leave. (I'm going to count Buzz as asked to leave as the admin certainly didn't seem too sad to see him go). In all 3 cases the new HC had no Head Coaching experience. Its these situation's (HC pushed out, new HC no experience) that lead to the longest rebuilding periods.
Under O'Neill we had an OK first season, a disastrous 2nd season, an average but showing promise no NIT 3rd season, before we finally got back to the Tournament in the 4th season. It was the 5th season before they won a game in the Tournament (the sweet 16 run). O'Neill had a lot of questionable coaching decisions in those first 4 years but by year 5 he had improved to the point that people felt the program was in good hands. Crean had a similar trajectory but he was 1 year ahead and better once he got there BUT that extra improvement has a lot to do with getting a once in a lifetime future NBA hall of famer in his 3rd year.
The first year of any coach is more about his predecessor than it is about him. Year 2 at 20-13 Wojo out preformed either of the other 2 and he also plays in a much tougher league. If MU ends up anywhere near the NCAA bubble he will have out done O'Neill's 3rd year and without Wade I'm not sure Crean's 3rd year is a lot better. It just shows it really takes 4 years to recover from a coach being forced out. In fact looking at it this way it now seems that rather than being too patient Wojo may have actually be too impatient and that might come back to bite him in the decision to take one and done Henry.
Had Wojo simply gotten a pair of decent High School 4s rather than Henry and Wally he would have had a second season like O'Neill's BUT he'd have 2 maturing PFs now that would be ready to set MU up for the 4th season when these rebuilding jobs seem to Finally bear fruit. The talent that is in the program now including the kids signed for next year would seem to set MU up for a good run with my main concern being the lack of maturity in the front court where it matters most. (The Henry effect??)
The final thought is what if Wojo is successful, that just means he is likely to leave. That is probably very true.
I doubt very much Wojo will be a lifer at MU. BUT if the coach moves on because he is successful it seems you don't normally face this brutal 4 year rebuild cycle because the program is on the way up. Look at Crean to Buzz, the HC change at Butler, the last few at Xavier. So as much as its frustrating to see evidence that this team might not be ready this year it would be crazy to assume Wojo won't make it.
So the rest of the year I'm going to try to enjoy the ride.
edit: paragraphs are your friend.
I see us as being on track to make the NCAA Tournament this year. It's certainly no guarantee, but we have the pieces in place. This team has plenty of offense, and while the defense is a work in progress, I'm optimistic we can shoot our way to 10-11 Big East wins and solidly onto the bubble. What I think we have to remember is this is really year two of the rebuild. The first year featured no players recruited by Wojo that are still here (Sandy was it) so it wasn't until the 2015 recruiting class that we first saw Wojo's team start to form.
Clearly we have some roster issues, but the staff knows it. They brought in a marquee big in Henry, tried to get additional frontcourt help in Levin, Washington, Nichols, Young, and Gill, but it didn't work out. Next year we add 6'7", 6'9", 6'10" and will start to have the kind of length we need to compete on the defensive end.
Consider other rebuilds. Not teams where the coach inherited a wealth of players (like Buzz did here or Holtmann at Butler) but where the bulk of the guys weren't there when the team started to win. Ed Cooley needed 3 years at Providence and he inherited Vincent Council, Kadeem Batts, Bryce Cotton, and Gerard Coleman (with Batts and Cotton the team leaders on that first NCAA team). Fran McCaffrey had nothing at Iowa and it wasn't until Year 4 that they got to the NCAAs. Billy Kennedy inherited talent at TAMU, but most of the best players (including Buck Khris Middleton) left after his first disappointing year and it wasn't until his 5th season they got to the NCAAs. Chris Collins is on his fourth season at Northwestern and hoping to get to the NCAAs.
It's not easy. It's not something that happens overnight. We had a bare cupboard and while there have been missteps, you can see the makings of not just a good team, but a good defensive team. In 2018-19, we will have Hauser, Cain, Bailey, John, Eke, Heldt, and possibly Joey. If that roster comes together, it would be the most length we've had in a long time. It's hard to be patient, but considering how well the offensive rebuild has gone, I'm willing to give them more time to complete the job.
-1
You actually used logic and reason to create a thoughtful comparison!!
I think everyone saw that there wasn't a drop off in performance from Crean to Buzz, but Buzz had a lot to work with when Crean left. Wojo didn't have much when Buzz left there were just a small handful of players to work with.
It will take time. Everyone saw how well we played in the first half versus Wisconsin, a half when their best big man was in foul trouble in only 3 minutes of play and MU shot lights out from 3. The second half it all came crashing back to Earth as Wisconsin asserted itself. MU will gain lots of experience this year, and will mature. Next year we will be deadly, should be in the top 3 or 4 teams in the Big East and look to take up residence there for years to come.
NAA & brew:
You two are going to get a lot of flak for being so reasonable and logical.
Bringing up that it took KO 4-5 years surely will rile up the Wojo haters because I think many of those same folks loved KO. They seem to have forgotten that he spent a lot of years struggling before experiencing some success.
If one mentions Jay Wright going a LONG time before winning anything, the response is, "That has nothing to do with this" or "Wojo has the financial resources" or "That was different."
Many here would have had Coach K fired in Year 2.
I agree with most of what both of you say here, and why shouldn't I? It's common sense and it's true.
My only nit is NAA saying we should have passed on Henry. No ... you have to take a kid like that. It is more helpful than hurtful to prove that you can sign a Mickey D boy ... and then to have him flourish and get drafted high, those are good things long-term.
I know that most of the folks who already want Wojo out (or at least on the proverbial hot seat) are just frustrated, impatient fans. They want what's best for the program.
I just happen to disagree that starting from scratch - again - is what's best. I also happen to disagree with those who already have given up on Wojo. I believe he has improved as a coach and will continue to do so. Besides, I truly don't think he is going anywhere for at least 2 years beyond this, and maybe 3. So "demanding" otherwise would just add to the frustration.
Anyways ...
Nice job, you two.
Quote from: MU82 on December 12, 2016, 09:21:18 PMMy only nit is NAA saying we should have passed on Henry. No ... you have to take a kid like that. It is more helpful than hurtful to prove that you can sign a Mickey D boy ... and then to have him flourish and get drafted high, those are good things long-term.
Gotta take a kid like Henry. You just can't pass on a player like that. Because you never know what might happen. Maybe he ends up loving school and staying 2-3 years. Maybe he's good enough to get you to the NCAAs in his only year (We were only a few bounces away in the right games). I will acknowledge that in some ways, Henry may have hindered our ability to win this year. I do think we'd have another big or two on the roster had Henry not come. But he also demonstrated what Wojo can do with a 5-star big man. I think in 3-4 years that could very well pay off as we start to win and become a potential landing spot for more marquee players (not at all worried about Wojo's recruiting).
Quote from: NotAnAlum on December 12, 2016, 08:37:14 PM
Since the Badger game I've been thinking a lot about how long rebuilding should take and where Wojo is on that path, is he moving more slowly because he knows he has the long term support of the Marquette admin etc.?
First in the last 30 years we've had 3 head coach changes were the coach was effectively asked to leave. (I'm going to count Buzz as asked to leave as the admin certainly didn't seem too sad to see him go). In all 3 cases the new HC had no Head Coaching experience. Its these situation's (HC pushed out, new HC no experience) that lead to the longest rebuilding periods. Under O'Neill we had an OK first season, a disastrous 2nd season, an average but showing promise no NIT 3rd season, before we finally got back to the Tournament in the 4th season. It was the 5th season before they won a game in the Tournament (the sweet 16 run). O'Neill had a lot of questionable coaching decisions in those first 4 years but by year 5 he had improved to the point that people felt the program was in good hands. Crean had a similar trajectory but he was 1 year ahead and better once he got there BUT that extra improvement has a lot to do with getting a once in a lifetime future NBA hall of famer in his 3rd year. The first year of any coach is more about his predecessor than it is about him. Year 2 at 20-13 Wojo out preformed either of the other 2 and he also plays in a much tougher league. If MU ends up anywhere near the NCAA bubble he will have out done O'Neill's 3rd year and without Wade I'm not sure Crean's 3rd year is a lot better. It just shows it really takes 4 years to recover from a coach being forced out. In fact looking at it this way it now seems that rather than being too patient Wojo may have actually be too impatient and that might come back to bite him in the decision to take one and done Henry. Had Wojo simply gotten a pair of decent High School 4s rather than Henry and Wally he would have had a second season like O'Neill's BUT he'd have 2 maturing PFs now that would be ready to set MU up for the 4th season when these rebuilding jobs seem to Finally bear fruit. The talent that is in the program now including the kids signed for next year would seem to set MU up for a good run with my main concern being the lack of maturity in the front court where it matters most. (The Henry effect??)
The final thought is what if Wojo is successful, that just means he is likely to leave. That is probably very true. I doubt very much Wojo will be a lifer at MU. BUT if the coach moves on because he is successful it seems you don't normally face this brutal 4 year rebuild cycle because the program is on the way up. Look at Crean to Buzz, the HC change at Butler, the last few at Xavier. So as much as its frustrating to see evidence that this team might not be ready this year it would be crazy to assume Wojo won't make it. So the rest of the year I'm going to try to enjoy the ride.
-1. You set up an entire premise based on a fact that isn't a fact but a falsehood. Dukiet and Deane weren't "effectively asked to leave" - they were fired. Buzz wasn't "effectively asked to leave" either. Like KO and Crean, he quit to take a different job. False underpinnings undermine the rest of your (logical or illogical) theory.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 12, 2016, 09:33:56 PM
-1. You set up an entire premise based on a fact that isn't a fact but a falsehood. Dukiet and Deane weren't "effectively asked to leave" - they were fired. Buzz wasn't "effectively asked to leave" either. Like KO and Crean, he quit to take a different job. False underpinnings undermine the rest of your (logical or illogical) theory.
Sorry, got to disagree. Buzz was "invited to leave". Basically told you need to change everything you do if you want to stay here. That's "invited to leave". 3 times the program was in complete disarray, 3 assistants from big time programs known great recruiters but with 0 HC experience. They're a heck of a lot more similar than they are different.
Quote from: MU82 on December 12, 2016, 09:21:18 PM
NAA & brew:
My only nit is NAA saying we should have passed on Henry.
Didn't say we should have passed on HE. I just said it was a gamble that may end up delaying the Rebuilding Payoff by 1 year.
This thread is 100% what I feel about this process. I just feel bad that MUFINY isn't here to give his two cents.
But totally agree! You guys make great points and I appreciate the patience that is preached here.
This is the most reasonable post about where we are that I have read in ages. The fact is that when Wojo came in, we had but eight scholarship athletes on the roster. Our best player that year was a grad transfer (Carlino) and the Hillbilly left us with nothing.
The Scoopers of my generation won't be happy unless we are a blue blood program mentioned in the same breath with such schools as Louisville, North Carolina and Duke, Villanova, Kentucky etc. We were so spoiled in our youth that we think there's no reason other than ourselves that keeps us from getting back to the McGuire era.
We are frustrated with Wojo because he is a button-down, gentlemanly, business-like Coach K clone. He's not Al -- not that anyone could ever be Al. Buzz was more like what we expected in our coach and we lost him largely because our administration was expecting more of Buzz.
If we're objective -- and that's not easy for us -- we know that Marquette is not a win at all costs school. We inherently know that things take time and some recruits may not be what we thought they would be. We're going to miss but we also must acknowledge that we're better than we were two years ago and probably better than we were a year ago. If we're getting beat, it is by senior teams that exploit our youth and impatience and lack of defense. Soon enough, we'll be seniors and we too will do that to others.
I think you do have to take into account the following:
1. The amount of money spent on basketball is much higher than the 00's & early 90's
2. Our conference affiliation is better
3. Our facilities are much better
This Scooper doesnt care whether Wojo is buttoned down or a raging lunatic. I just want to see signs that we regain the momentum generated by Crean & Buzz.
Here is something to ponder - since Raymonds left the average tenure of our head coach is 5.2 years (excluding Wojo)....
So I hope you are right and Wojo builds the house that lasts for 40 years. I just skeptical that it either gets built or he stays to enjoy it.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 13, 2016, 07:22:15 AM
I think you do have to take into account the following:
1. The amount of money spent on basketball is much higher than the 00's & early 90's
2. Our conference affiliation is better
3. Our facilities are much better
This Scooper doesnt care whether Wojo is buttoned down or a raging lunatic. I just want to see signs that we regain the momentum generated by Crean & Buzz.
Here is something to ponder - since Raymonds left the average tenure of our head coach is 5.2 years (excluding Wojo)....
So I hope you are right and Wojo builds the house that lasts for 40 years. I just skeptical that it either gets built or he stays to enjoy it.
Interesting that you mention the 5.2 years. Under any scenario I can paint, Wojo is here significantly longer than that. That is unless he says MU ought to be an NIT team satisfied with an occasional run at the dance.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 13, 2016, 07:22:15 AMThis Scooper doesnt care whether Wojo is buttoned down or a raging lunatic. I just want to see signs that we regain the momentum generated by Crean & Buzz.
I think we can all agree that 2014-15 was pretty much a throwaway season and that the only positives to be gained going forward were anything we got out of Luke (encouraging), Duane (encouraging), and Jajuan (disappointing). Since then we had a 20 win season and now have a top-20 in the nation offensive efficiency. Aren't those signs that after being left a festering pile of roster poo, Wojo is regaining momentum? We're seeing it in recruiting and on-court performance. Even Hologram Al McGuire wasn't going to turn us into a top-10 program overnight.
Quote from: fjm on December 12, 2016, 10:16:08 PM
I just feel bad that MUFINY isn't here to give his two cents.
Texas Western
MU Fan in NY
Gus Ganakas
mattyv1908
He still has plenty of alternate IDs, and those are only the ones we know of
Patience grasshopper, patience. We'll get there.
That's what I don't get. I see signs everywhere that we are improving. Wojo has put a better product on the floor every year. Provided the trajectory continues we should all be happy.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2016, 08:02:12 AM
I think we can all agree that 2014-15 was pretty much a throwaway season and that the only positives to be gained going forward were anything we got out of Luke (encouraging), Duane (encouraging), and Jajuan (disappointing). Since then we had a 20 win season and now have a top-20 in the nation offensive efficiency. Aren't those signs that after being left a festering pile of roster poo, Wojo is regaining momentum? We're seeing it in recruiting and on-court performance. Even Hologram Al McGuire wasn't going to turn us into a top-10 program overnight.
Mixed. Recruiting is good but the ability to execute, general enthusiasm around the program leaves me wanting. I don't by any means expect a top 10 team - and we are definitely better than the crappy team from two years ago - there is just a gigantic chasm between where we are and where we say our goal is.
By the way I am just biased negative not in the pull the rip cord camp.
Quote from: jsglow on December 13, 2016, 07:33:09 AM
Interesting that you mention the 5.2 years. Under any scenario I can paint, Wojo is here significantly longer than that. That is unless he says MU ought to be an NIT team satisfied with an occasional run at the dance.
I hope Wojo has great success in the next couple of years here at MU, gets us back in to the NCAA's with a Sweet 16 run and even an Elite Eight or, dare we dream, a Final Four. But whether he has great success or doesn't get it turned around, I don't expect him to be here more than 5-6 years. Like it or not, the Marquette job is a stepping stone job right now - and has been since Rick Majerus patrolled the sideline. Majerus, O'Neill, Crean, and Williams* were all first time coaches who moved on to other jobs (*I'm discounting Buzz's one year at New Orleans). Dukiet and Deane both had head coaching experience at smaller schools before coming to Marquette, but both flamed out here. Dukiet was probably the nicest guy of all these coaches, but was a terrible coach. Deane was probably the best game-day coach of any of the post-Raymonds era, but he was not dedicated to recruiting and his roster suffered for it. So, although he won 100 games faster than any MU coach, he was shown the door for not keeping pace on the recruiting trail.
If Wojo has the success we all hope he does, then my guess is he will leave for an ACC job--that's where he played and coached prior to coming to MU--or a top tier Big Ten job. If he can't pull it together in a couple years, MU will most likely cut bait and move on.
I have seen rebuilding projects at MU and Wojo's rebuilding project fails to compare to that KO faced. This was not a rebuild that needed 4-5 years to make happen. In addition, the excitement level for the program is a very low point. While KO struggled a bit in first few years he brought juice to the program. He was outspoken, brash and made things happen. I loved KO for the excitement he brought to a dead program and his belief he could happen.
While I am disappointed with the results on the court, I am far more disappointed in the lack of excitement or support off the court. Many of us old guys on here would gladly take a 4-5 rebuild if the end result was a better program than Buzz had here. I really do not see that happening and am afraid more and more folks end up off the bandwagon.
Norm
At this point you have better chance of being an ACC men's basketball HC in 3-4 years than Wojo does. He has a lot of work ahead to prove he is long term D1 coach anywhere, IMO.
Why I am bullish on Wojo:
1. Our best players (or players who seem to be performing the best consistently) are "his" guys and his recruits. He needed to keep a roster together and I'm not saying Luke, JJJ, Duane, etc. are not talented and contributing (they are), but when I watch MU this year the guys I am most excited about and seeing moving us forward are Sam, Markus, Cheatham, etc. Toss in the incoming recruitment class and recruits on the radar and I see an upgrade in talent and Wojo building a roster of his guys. I frankly expected more out of the current roster and a coach who can win with the pieces we have in place, but, I see a real promise in the types of players he is getting to commit to the program.
2. Many argue this on this board...but, the fact he did land a one and done is significant. When has that ever happened at MU and while not something I would want to build a program on...it shows he can land a big recruit in a very competitive field. Henry could have gone anywhere...he came to MU. The nuances were unique with his brother here and MU being in state, but, Wojo still landed a major recruit in only his second year.
3. Next year's roster, constituted entirely by Wojo and staff, looks to be the most balanced we have had in years in terms of age, position, skill set, etc. Now...let's see how they play under Wojo.
4. By all appearances...the program is clean. He seems to be doing it the right way and in a manner that is consistent with our school's values and code of integrity. Frankly, I am proud of that accomplishment after some of the issues surfaced with the program under Buzz. I firmly believe you can have success the right way...a high level of academic integrity, adherance to a strong moral code, good citizenship and athletic achievement in a program. I do think we will find that under Wojo.
5. While not where we want to be yet in terms of results on the court. The trajectory is upward year over year (over year one which to me was a complete wash out year given when he was hired, the circumstances, and what was left on our roster). i'm not giving excuses for blowing leads, or not winning more games, or looking like the word defense has never been invented at times, but, there is progress on the court and as we head into the Big East season, I am hopeful for an above 500 campaign and a post season bid.
Next year is vital in my eyes for affirmation or concern that we are in the right hands as a program in terms of basketball success. I would like to see an inflection up in terms of wins and consistency on the court as well as continued improvement of our young players. I would love to see attendance up and some excitement back in the program from the fan base. I think expecting an NCAA tourney bid next year is appropriate and we should demand it.
If everything gels correctly, the program could really be solidified and moving toward sustained excellence by the time the new arena opens. Starting from scratch right now seems panicked and ill-informed...and not right.
Go MU....let's have a conference season to remember!
Quote from: Norm on December 13, 2016, 09:04:12 AM
If Wojo has the success we all hope he does, then my guess is he will leave for an ACC job--that's where he played and coached prior to coming to MU--or a top tier Big Ten job. If he can't pull it together in a couple years, MU will most likely cut bait and move on.
Could be but I don't think so. I really think Wojo picked Marquette because he saw a school with all the ingredients to build a dynasty program. He has the chance to build something here that could eventually become blue blooded. I think the only jobs I could see him leaving for are other blue bloods.
I think Wojo has until 2019 to get his program built. If he can't get it done by then MU will cut bait.
TAMU
I agree that Wojo has a very long leash. IMO MU brass is making a serious roll of the dice on Wojo and the basketball program. I am an optimist by nature, especially regarding MU ball, but I think Wojo has little to no chance of making even a tier below blue blood. Very strongly beginning to believe he is the wrong guy for the job.
Over the past weekend I listened to many solid MU backers complain and complain hard about the program. I was quite surprised by the negative Wojo talk in general in these conversations. Some of these folks I have had heated debates regarding where I believe MU fits into overall image of the university and their tone had changed drastically since the Buzz era. At that time they were far more in the academics at MU is the best sales tool and basketball was a nice marketing tool. Trust me, MU basketball has been, and hopefully will be in the future, the best avenue to improve the university as a whole.
Goose, I am closer to your line of thinking regarding Wojo right now. In fact, I was not wild about his hire in the first place. It's just my opinion that if he does turn it around, then he will become a coach that ACC programs will look at because of his pedigree in that league and the connections that he has there. Thus, if he does have that kind of success here, I don't think he will stick around at MU for the long haul.
Quote from: Goose on December 13, 2016, 09:27:27 AM
TAMU
I agree that Wojo has a very long leash. IMO MU brass is making a serious roll of the dice on Wojo and the basketball program. I am an optimist by nature, especially regarding MU ball, but I think Wojo has little to no chance of making even a tier below blue blood. Very strongly beginning to believe he is the wrong guy for the job.
Over the past weekend I listened to many solid MU backers complain and complain hard about the program. I was quite surprised by the negative Wojo talk in general in these conversations. Some of these folks I have had heated debates regarding where I believe MU fits into overall image of the university and their tone had changed drastically since the Buzz era. At that time they were far more in the academics at MU is the best sales tool and basketball was a nice marketing tool. Trust me, MU basketball has been, and hopefully will be in the future, the best avenue to improve the university as a whole.
Out of curiosity...what are the themes or specifics of their complaints? Is it all related to on court performance or is there more to it in terms of Wojo connecting with alum, etc.? Just would like to learn the nature of their significant upset and complaints. Thanks (not baiting...honestly curious).
Quote from: Goose on December 13, 2016, 09:06:43 AM
I have seen rebuilding projects at MU and Wojo's rebuilding project fails to compare to that KO faced. This was not a rebuild that needed 4-5 years to make happen. In addition, the excitement level for the program is a very low point. While KO struggled a bit in first few years he brought juice to the program. He was outspoken, brash and made things happen. I loved KO for the excitement he brought to a dead program and his belief he could happen.
While I am disappointed with the results on the court, I am far more disappointed in the lack of excitement or support off the court. Many of us old guys on here would gladly take a 4-5 rebuild if the end result was a better program than Buzz had here. I really do not see that happening and am afraid more and more folks end up off the bandwagon.
I'm curious as to why you think the bolded part. After Buzz's guys were done transferring out, we were left with one of the worst rosters of any power conference team in the entire country.
Eagle
We were two years removed from quite a good NCAA run for a number of years. When KO took over we were bottom 20 program in the country. Every new coach inherits transfers and so-so players and really not an excuse. Our talent has been upgraded over two years ago but nothing to plan a parade down Wisconsin Ave. over.
Da'Lanch
Much of the discussion was regarding the use of basketball in the overall success of MU. In addition, complaints about attendance, no bang for your buck on buying season tickets and a disconnect with Wojo in general. For me, I could care less if Wojo is active in MU community or not as long as he wins. I think he is losing more of the old guard than many think he is.
Quote from: Goose on December 13, 2016, 09:06:43 AM
While I am disappointed with the results on the court, I am far more disappointed in the lack of excitement or support off the court. Many of us old guys on here would gladly take a 4-5 rebuild if the end result was a better program than Buzz had here. I really do not see that happening and am afraid more and more folks end up off the bandwagon.
Two things. Its much harder to generate excitement on the build up when you've had the kind of recent success that Buzz generated. O'Neill was coming off a time when the program looked to be headed to mid major status so any improvement was a relief. Second if the expectation is to be BETTER than S-16,S-16,E-8, tournament every year, top 3 finish in the BE all the time before people can get excited that is a pretty difficult bar to jump over. I personally was ok with the program under Buzz doing things the way he wanted to do them BUT the MU Admin WASN'T so fans have to accept maybe similar success with less off court issues as significant improvement. I think that once the team gets filled in with experienced players to where they are competitive and can pull an upset over top 10 opponents from time to time AND the talent gets to where there are individual players that fans look forward to watching light it up the excitement will return.
Quote from: MuEagle1090 on December 13, 2016, 09:35:54 AM
I'm curious as to why you think the bolded part. After Buzz's guys were done transferring out, we were left with one of the worst rosters of any power conference team in the entire country.
I think the VA Tech roster of that year was worse.
Quote from: dgies9156 on December 13, 2016, 05:52:31 AM
This is the most reasonable post about where we are that I have read in ages. The fact is that when Wojo came in, we had but eight scholarship athletes on the roster. Our best player that year was a grad transfer (Carlino) and the Hillbilly left us with nothing.
The Scoopers of my generation won't be happy unless we are a blue blood program mentioned in the same breath with such schools as Louisville, North Carolina and Duke, Villanova, Kentucky etc. We were so spoiled in our youth that we think there's no reason other than ourselves that keeps us from getting back to the McGuire era.
We are frustrated with Wojo because he is a button-down, gentlemanly, business-like Coach K clone. He's not Al -- not that anyone could ever be Al. Buzz was more like what we expected in our coach and we lost him largely because our administration was expecting more of Buzz.
If we're objective -- and that's not easy for us -- we know that Marquette is not a win at all costs school. We inherently know that things take time and some recruits may not be what we thought they would be. We're going to miss but we also must acknowledge that we're better than we were two years ago and probably better than we were a year ago. If we're getting beat, it is by senior teams that exploit our youth and impatience and lack of defense. Soon enough, we'll be seniors and we too will do that to others.
So you think Wojo will all of a sudden learn how to teach defense in the next few years?
He's shown zero ability so far.
dgies
Always respect your posts and your love of the program. I agree with most of your post on the Al crowd , with one exception. If MU is not win at all cost program stop spending money like they are. There are far better use of funds at a university, that is not rolling in the dough, than blowing on a mid tier program. Either get real ROI from the program or downsize and use funds elsewhere.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 13, 2016, 09:16:52 AM
Could be but I don't think so. I really think Wojo picked Marquette because he saw a school with all the ingredients to build a dynasty program. He has the chance to build something here that could eventually become blue blooded. I think the only jobs I could see him leaving for are other blue bloods.
Yep, I agree. I think all those year with Coach K and witnessing k's thought process of staying in Durham and being comfortable in the Duke job rather than moving on to seemingly Greener Grass has given Wojo a deeper insight into what is really important. I think that might be the factors in staying in Durham for those many years.
Wojo has a Blue collar background (like's "K") and Milwaukee seems to be a great fit.
If he wins I see a long Stay.
Quote from: NotAnAlum on December 12, 2016, 08:37:14 PM
Since the Badger game I've been thinking a lot about how long rebuilding should take and where Wojo is on that path, is he moving more slowly because he knows he has the long term support of the Marquette admin etc.?
First in the last 30 years we've had 3 head coach changes were the coach was effectively asked to leave. (I'm going to count Buzz as asked to leave as the admin certainly didn't seem too sad to see him go). In all 3 cases the new HC had no Head Coaching experience. Its these situation's (HC pushed out, new HC no experience) that lead to the longest rebuilding periods.
Under O'Neill we had an OK first season, a disastrous 2nd season, an average but showing promise no NIT 3rd season, before we finally got back to the Tournament in the 4th season. It was the 5th season before they won a game in the Tournament (the sweet 16 run). O'Neill had a lot of questionable coaching decisions in those first 4 years but by year 5 he had improved to the point that people felt the program was in good hands. Crean had a similar trajectory but he was 1 year ahead and better once he got there BUT that extra improvement has a lot to do with getting a once in a lifetime future NBA hall of famer in his 3rd year.
The first year of any coach is more about his predecessor than it is about him. Year 2 at 20-13 Wojo out preformed either of the other 2 and he also plays in a much tougher league. If MU ends up anywhere near the NCAA bubble he will have out done O'Neill's 3rd year and without Wade I'm not sure Crean's 3rd year is a lot better. It just shows it really takes 4 years to recover from a coach being forced out. In fact looking at it this way it now seems that rather than being too patient Wojo may have actually be too impatient and that might come back to bite him in the decision to take one and done Henry.
Had Wojo simply gotten a pair of decent High School 4s rather than Henry and Wally he would have had a second season like O'Neill's BUT he'd have 2 maturing PFs now that would be ready to set MU up for the 4th season when these rebuilding jobs seem to Finally bear fruit. The talent that is in the program now including the kids signed for next year would seem to set MU up for a good run with my main concern being the lack of maturity in the front court where it matters most. (The Henry effect??)
The final thought is what if Wojo is successful, that just means he is likely to leave. That is probably very true.
I doubt very much Wojo will be a lifer at MU. BUT if the coach moves on because he is successful it seems you don't normally face this brutal 4 year rebuild cycle because the program is on the way up. Look at Crean to Buzz, the HC change at Butler, the last few at Xavier. So as much as its frustrating to see evidence that this team might not be ready this year it would be crazy to assume Wojo won't make it.
So the rest of the year I'm going to try to enjoy the ride.
edit: paragraphs are your friend.
This is a really great take. The most salient point is the distinction between a head coach leaving and a head coach being asked to leave, and how different the turnaround can be depending on which it is. This puts Wojo's current spot in perspective--because he took over what had become approximately a broken program--and will also put into perspective his departure if/when he succeeds here. Thanks for this.
Over the past weekend I listened to many solid MU backers complain and complain hard about the program. I was quite surprised by the negative Wojo talk in general in these conversations. Some of these folks I have had heated debates regarding where I believe MU fits into overall image of the university and their tone had changed drastically since the Buzz era. At that time they were far more in the academics at MU is the best sales tool and basketball was a nice marketing tool. Trust me, MU basketball has been, and hopefully will be in the future, the best avenue to improve the university as a whole.
[/quote]
Big time fan, alum, and long time lurker on the boards. I don't post much, but this caught my eye. If true, I'm curious to know what the solid MU backers expectations of the program are? Can we just run out and hire "a better coach" here at MU? Didn't turn out too well with Shaka. Cal recently lost to Seton Hall....maybe to early to wish we had hired Martin.
I admit I'm a little frustrated with the lack of attendance and poor defensive results, but the over-all talent of WoJo's recruits, offensive abilities, and wins (hopefully) continue to get better. Watching a team that can actually shoot is also a breath of fresh air.
People are certainly entitled to their opinions. I guess I would just hope a little patience prevails and they continue to support the program. Grass is not always greener on the other side.
Quote from: Goose on December 13, 2016, 09:53:33 AMWe were two years removed from quite a good NCAA run for a number of years. When KO took over we were bottom 20 program in the country. Every new coach inherits transfers and so-so players and really not an excuse. Our talent has been upgraded over two years ago but nothing to plan a parade down Wisconsin Ave. over.
I love your commentary and always enjoy your perspective, but I'm really curious what the magical answer is. I hear this line about how we aren't on track and I just don''t get what more Wojo is supposed to be doing. His first year, his entire job was to put a team on the floor that wasn't too embarrassing. Frankly, if we don't have Carlino, if Derrick and Juan don't have career years, and if we don't go to zone, we probably would have been one of the worst teams in the country. We were still a top-100 team per Pomeroy and top-150 per the RPI. Toss that year out the window, and frankly, we still probably overachieved when you look at what Buzz left us with.
So this is year two since Wojo has been able to bring in his own guys. 7 of our top 10 players in terms of minutes are his recruits, and 5 of those are freshmen and sophomores that will be around for at two more years (not including redshirt Anim). He is building a core that will be bolstered with four committed players between 6'7" and 6'10" in the next two classes (Cain, John, Bailey, Eke) so the length we lack is being addressed.
Right now, we have a borderline elite offense. If you like old school stats, we are 17th in the country at 86.4 ppg. If you like new school stats, we are 17th in the country in adjusted offensive efficiency at 1.146 ppp. By any metric, with two years of Wojo recruits and 6 of our top 7 players in terms of offensive efficiency being his guys, the future of our offense is blisteringly bright. If offense was the only metric, going from 155 to 17 in two years is damn sure worth throwing a parade over especially when that efficiency is driven primarily by the young players our new coach brought in.
The defense is a work in progress, but we don't have length. Pomeroy has written how defensive efficiency correlates more closely with length than offensive efficiency (http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=82) so logic would follow that adding players with length will improve that defense. Right now, 18 of the top-20 defensive efficiency teams are ranked in the top-100 in terms of height. The lowest ranked team in terms of height is #116 South Carolina. We are ranked #208 in terms of height. If you want an elite defense, you need length. And it's coming.
This is year two of Wojo having his own players. If he gets to the NCAAs this year or next, I'd say he's on schedule. We have a top-20 offense and the pieces coming to potentially have a top-20 defense. What more do you really expect? Honestly, where SHOULD we be right now?
Brew, I really see this as a longer situation then the next two years. This year has 3 seniors, which they lose and add 3 freshman. Not sure that is an even exchange.
I think the start of Wojos improvement starts in 2018 when his recruits are in place. Add Bailey and hopefully Hauser and another and you have had 4 years of decent
recruiting. Still some holes, but they can be filled with 2 other recruits. 2017 can only be better if he signs a grad transfer big or Juco player. That will not be determined till spring.
The Henry Ellenson situation put him back one year. 2018, no NCAA, no Wojo.
Brew
I am fine waiting another year and seeing what happens. That said, in regards to current talent and in game coaching I believe we are a long way from being competitive in most BE games this year. I am not sold on the young talent as being upper BE talent at this point. I like the two freshmen quite a bit but do not think they will be game changers for the program.
All in all, I am not jumping ship, nor would I ever jump ship. That said, a great MU fan, and season ticket holder for decades, told me Saturday afternoon he was considering giving up MU tickets and buying Bucks tickets next season.
Lastly, the answer to your question on where we should be now...beyond the point of making excuses in early December why next year is the win or else year. There is ZERO juice in the program and that is a problem.
Not just Goose, I'd address this to anyone currently criticizing the "state of the program".
Where should we be right now?
I think I can objectively say we are around 5th-7th in the conference after a 7th place finish last year. We are probably a bubble team and will be there most of the year, with our NCAA fate something we'll point at as likely coming down to 2-4 possession when Selection Sunday rolls around (like last year, where 3 one-possession games against DePaul, Belmont, and Creighton probably cost us a bid). We have a top-20 offense and a mediocre but not-so-bad-to-cost-us-a-bid defense. We have five players getting double digit minutes that will be here the next 3+ (including this) year, so our core is young. What more did you objectively expect this staff to do after being handed the roster that Wojo had to deal with in 2014-15?
Great post, Brew. Sums up the way I see the state of the program. We're not where we want to be yet. But the progress Wojo's made is clear and significant.
Quote from: Goose on December 13, 2016, 01:05:26 PM
Brew
I am fine waiting another year and seeing what happens. That said, in regards to current talent and in game coaching I believe we are a long way from being competitive in most BE games this year. I am not sold on the young talent as being upper BE talent at this point. I like the two freshmen quite a bit but do not think they will be game changers for the program.
All in all, I am not jumping ship, nor would I ever jump ship. That said, a great MU fan, and season ticket holder for decades, told me Saturday afternoon he was considering giving up MU tickets and buying Bucks tickets next season.
Lastly, the answer to your question on where we should be now...beyond the point of making excuses in early December why next year is the win or else year. There is ZERO juice in the program and that is a problem.
I'm a big fan of Hauser and Howard, but I guess to each their own. As far as the juice...who's fault is that? Buzz missed the tournament with what should have been a coast-to-a-bid team on paper. The next year, we lost three of our top four in terms of minutes (Derrick was the one that stayed) and another starter in Otule. So 2014-15 there was no juice because Buzz left a squeezed out lemon in Wojo's office. Last year we won 20 games, sent as player to the NBA as a top-20 pick, and at least got back to winning. This year we look like a bubble team, most likely at least NIT.
Short of going door-to-door to encourage STHs and students to attend, what is Wojo supposed to do that he's not doing? Two of the three missed NCAA years are squarely on Buzz. I just get frustrated hearing that Wojo isn't getting it done because when I look at the level of recruiting and the trajectory of the program, I don't know what more to expect.
This isn't like when Crean left Buzz three all-time great seniors in 2009 and three of the top four players in terms of minutes for the 2010 NCAA team. In terms of experience, Wojo inherited Derrick, Juan, and Mayo as opposed to McNeal, Matthews, and James. In terms of the future, he inherited Jajuan, Duane, and Luke compared to Lazar, Acker, and Cooby. The latter might be comparable (though I'd say Lazar alone offsets all of the other three), the former certainly isn't.
Quote from: mayfairskatingrink on December 13, 2016, 11:06:47 AM
So you think Wojo will all of a sudden learn how to teach defense in the next few years?
One can hope.
Quote from: HoopsterBC on December 13, 2016, 01:04:35 PM
Brew, I really see this as a longer situation then the next two years. This year has 3 seniors, which they lose and add 3 freshman. Not sure that is an even exchange.
I think the start of Wojos improvement starts in 2018 when his recruits are in place. Add Bailey and hopefully Hauser and another and you have had 4 years of decent
recruiting. Still some holes, but they can be filled with 2 other recruits. 2017 can only be better if he signs a grad transfer big or Juco player. That will not be determined till spring.
The Henry Ellenson situation put him back one year. 2018, no NCAA, no Wojo.
My personal opinion, and I'm sure it's a minority opinion, but I do think next year will be better. Offensively, Luke is a huge loss. But I think Matt is a better defender and think he can make up for enough on offense to offset that loss. Jajuan is good, but he has deficiencies as well and I feel we have the pieces in place to offset that loss as well. As far as Reinhardt, he's been a disappointment so far (Saturday notwithstanding) and again, I like what we have behind him.
Will Eke, John, and Cain make up for those three immediately? No. But the improvement of our current youth coupled with the addition of more length I do feel will offset the losses.
I agree on 2018-19 as the time we should expect a big improvement. Looking at the continuity we will have by then and the establishment of a full Wojo-recruited roster, that's when we should be a top-25 team and able to compete with just about anyone on our night. I'm not saying it's Final Four or bust, but we should feel proud of that team and the "juice" we are missing should be fresh with an exciting roster and new arena.
This rebuild is one where I have to side with the departed Chicos. Wojo needs 5 years before a full evaluation can be done. If he makes the NCAA or NIT or nothing the next two years will helkp sculpt those opinions, but I'm going to try my hardest to withhold too severe of judgment until we see that team.
Brew
I said I like the two freshmen. All I said was that I am not certain they will improve enough to be the core for the future. Trust me, not saying they cannot be but you never know. HE was a great freshman at MU and many here think we are better with him gone this year.
For my honest opinion on lack of juice...I really do not think the vast majority of fans are not big fans of Wojo. Have heard countless times how unimpressed folks were after meeting him. I have met him a couple of times and really have no impression of him after talking with him. Not negative, but came away with kind of "that was a waste of three minutes" feeling. Personality and the ability to connect with people is important in all walks of life and not sure he has that skill set.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2016, 01:20:31 PM
I'm a big fan of Hauser and Howard, but I guess to each their own. As far as the juice...who's fault is that? Buzz missed the tournament with what should have been a coast-to-a-bid team on paper. The next year, we lost three of our top four in terms of minutes (Derrick was the one that stayed) and another starter in Otule. So 2014-15 there was no juice because Buzz left a squeezed out lemon in Wojo's office. Last year we won 20 games, sent as player to the NBA as a top-20 pick, and at least got back to winning. This year we look like a bubble team, most likely at least NIT.
Short of going door-to-door to encourage STHs and students to attend, what is Wojo supposed to do that he's not doing? Two of the three missed NCAA years are squarely on Buzz. I just get frustrated hearing that Wojo isn't getting it done because when I look at the level of recruiting and the trajectory of the program, I don't know what more to expect.
This isn't like when Crean left Buzz three all-time great seniors in 2009 and three of the top four players in terms of minutes for the 2010 NCAA team. In terms of experience, Wojo inherited Derrick, Juan, and Mayo as opposed to McNeal, Matthews, and James. In terms of the future, he inherited Jajuan, Duane, and Luke compared to Lazar, Acker, and Cooby. The latter might be comparable (though I'd say Lazar alone offsets all of the other three), the former certainly isn't.
One cannot entirely blame Wojo. He couldn't bring in a Jimmy Butler, DJO or Jae Crowder in today if he wanted to.
Many doubted this year's team could possibly be better than last year's — simply because we lost Henry to the NBA. But we are better, at least by any metric I've seen. After improving from 10th to 7th in the conference in 2015-16, KenPom and others now project us as the 5th best team in the Big East.
How is that possible? All the returnees (including Wojo) have another year of experience under their belts. Players improve — like Luke pulling down defensive rebounds at the highest rate of his career. And the newcomers (Sam, Markus, Katin and Andrew) have exceeded expectations.
I see no reason why next year's team can't be even better yet.
Quote from: Goose on December 13, 2016, 09:27:27 AM
TAMU
I agree that Wojo has a very long leash. IMO MU brass is making a serious roll of the dice on Wojo and the basketball program. I am an optimist by nature, especially regarding MU ball, but I think Wojo has little to no chance of making even a tier below blue blood. Very strongly beginning to believe he is the wrong guy for the job.
Over the past weekend I listened to many solid MU backers complain and complain hard about the program. I was quite surprised by the negative Wojo talk in general in these conversations. Some of these folks I have had heated debates regarding where I believe MU fits into overall image of the university and their tone had changed drastically since the Buzz era. At that time they were far more in the academics at MU is the best sales tool and basketball was a nice marketing tool. Trust me, MU basketball has been, and hopefully will be in the future, the best avenue to improve the university as a whole.
Goose, with all due respect, I don't believe for a second that you are "beginning to believe he is the wrong guy for the job." From what I can see, you and many corners of Marquette fandom have thought that since the day Wojo was hired.
I don't know what it was. Whether it was us believing we were getting Shaka...Or people spreading misinformation about Tony Bennett and Ben Howland being candidates (they weren't)...Or people just hating Duke and anyone from there...Many just decided that they hated the hire and nothing short of immediate success was going to change that.
I would like to hear a solution. Not a complaint. There's no use in saying we shouldn't have hired Wojo because we did. We are here now. And Wojo has done nothing but improve the program since he got here. Every year he's put a better product on the floor. Maybe it's not going as quickly as we would like but it's heading oh the right direction. Is the smart move really to pull the plug and start over? What would that do too the program?
Who should have we hired instead of Wojo? Can you honestly say that anyone else would have given the program more juice? Howland? He plays the most boring style of basketball next to the badgers, is struggling at Mississippi State, and has skeletons in the closet to boot. Cuonzo? Maybe. But he was gifted a great roster and grabbed two burger boys and has been average. He definitely doesn't get rabb to come to Marquette and I doubt he'd get brown here either. He'd probably be where we are now. Oh, he also had a sexual harassment scandal in his first year.
The program was doomed to "run low on juice" long before Wojo was hired. It started when Buzz and Larry got into their who's got the bigger penis contest and it was sealed when Buzz left for VT. Wojo is not responsible for lack of juice, he is however responsible for getting the juice back. I don't know how much better we could have reasonably expected him to do by this point.
If you really look at, two years ago the team could barely score, hard to watch. Last year was better but Ellenson was such a volume shooter it was hard to get excited,
maybe the players around him were not to good. This year the team can score, shoot, and fun to watch. It will be a fun ride, defense, maybe have to out score teams
this year. 7th looks about right, to small and to soft, not sure Wojo has the right players yet. They still scored 83 against Wisky, and they play D.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 13, 2016, 01:57:40 PMI don't know what it was. Whether it was us believing we were getting Shaka...Or people spreading misinformation about Tony Bennett and Ben Howland being candidates (they weren't)...
Bennett was a candidate for Marquette, just not when Buzz left.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2016, 02:19:38 PM
Bennett was a candidate for Marquette, just not when Buzz left.
This is true.
TAMU
I can assure that Wojo was not doomed by me on Day One or even now. He got me excited early on with the recruitment of Matt Carlino and getting into the HE sweepstakes. While he might not have been my first choice, Shaka was, nobody excited me in the pool of finalists. You were high on Wojo prior to hire and couple of other people I respect were OK with the hire. I was very cautiously optimistic all the way until late last season.
Again, trust me on the fact I never was anti Wojo. I like him being from Duke because it is a blue blood program that hoists banners after seasons.
All this talk of "juice" and "excitement" in the program, talk of firing Wojo, talk of expectations, etc, etc...
It all makes me think there are, apparently, lots of people who don't objectively see where Marquette - as a small, private school in Milwaukee - lies on the college basketball pyramid. Whether it is where MU stands in the coaching hierarchy (not a destination, but a stepping-stone), attractiveness to recruits, etc. It appears there are people out there who see MU as much, much more than is the reality of the situation.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 13, 2016, 04:04:13 PM
All this talk of "juice" and "excitement" in the program, talk of firing Wojo, talk of expectations, etc, etc...
It all makes me think there are, apparently, lots of people who don't objectively see where Marquette - as a small, private school in Milwaukee - lies on the college basketball pyramid. Whether it is where MU stands in the coaching hierarchy (not a destination, but a stepping-stone), attractiveness to recruits, etc. It appears there are people out there who see MU as much, much more than is the reality of the situation.
Jes - I've been told by MU that our objective is to have a Nationally recognized bball program that can compete for national championships. If that isn't true thats fine but I doubt the money continues to support it at the levels it currently receives.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 13, 2016, 04:12:23 PM
Jes - I've been told by MU that our objective is to have a Nationally recognized bball program that can compete for national championships. If that isn't true thats fine but I doubt the money continues to support it at the levels it currently receives.
I have no problem with that. Of course "compete for national championships" could be a pretty broad definition. I'd like to know more specifically how they define that phrase.
My point was combine everything I said in my last post with the situation we were left in when Buzz left. The rebuild, on top of all the other difficulties with being MU in the bball landscape. It's not objectively easy. And realistically expecting sweet 16s 1-2 years (or even packed non-con games) after Buzz is crazy talk.
Nearly every metric of the program under Wojo is either trending up or staying stagnant. That's a conclusion of overall positive.
Why all the concern about Marquette's level of investment in men's basketball? The program isn't just an expense — it's a huge revenue generator and marketing tool for the university, both nationally and around the world.
The Wall Street Journal estimates the overall value of the program at $60 million — 35th in the country and highest in the Big East. That's why MU spends money on things like basketball coaches and facilities. Because it pays off.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/how-much-is-your-college-basketball-team-worth-1459459516 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/how-much-is-your-college-basketball-team-worth-1459459516)
The last figure I remember seeing in terms of investment in the program is that our spending was #2 behind only Duke. I'm not sure if that's still accurate as those numbers were probably from 5 years ago, but I have to say if we're second in spending and 35th in value, that's definitely a disappointing return on investment.
I do think what Wojo is doing is more sustainable and more likely to create long-term success than his predecessor, but on the whole, the program should do better with the money MU puts into it.
MU is highly recognized as a BB school outiside US, exposure is probably bigger than most of you think and with Wade and Butler together should trend even higher.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2016, 05:53:33 PM
The last figure I remember seeing in terms of investment in the program is that our spending was #2 behind only Duke. I'm not sure if that's still accurate as those numbers were probably from 5 years ago, but I have to say if we're second in spending and 35th in value, that's definitely a disappointing return on investment.
I do think what Wojo is doing is more sustainable and more likely to create long-term success than his predecessor, but on the whole, the program should do better with the money MU puts into it.
I don't necessarily disagree with the ROI argument. I just think it's a tough situation. With a non-state school which is not a coaching destination and not in a "cool" geographic location, I believe a school like MU has to "overspend" to even come close to the blue bloods or even the tier below the blue bloods.
Here's the question though, for the ROI argument: What can MU do with that same bball $$$ amount to improve the ROI? Where can the money be allocated within its bball-sphere to get a better return?
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 13, 2016, 05:35:25 PM
I have no problem with that. Of course "compete for national championships" could be a pretty broad definition. I'd like to know more specifically how they define that phrase.
My point was combine everything I said in my last post with the situation we were left in when Buzz left. The rebuild, on top of all the other difficulties with being MU in the bball landscape. It's not objectively easy. And realistically expecting sweet 16s 1-2 years (or even packed non-con games) after Buzz is crazy talk.
Nearly every metric of the program under Wojo is either trending up or staying stagnant. That's a conclusion of overall positive.
Got it - I know the objective is squishy as well.
I guess I don't agree how bad it was for the next coach following Buzz. I saw what it was like for Crean to rebuild from Deane - that was a real low in enthusiasm and support of the program. It feels like we are trending there now and it worries me as the Bball program is one of MUs greatest assets.
Maybe it was as bad as you say...hey I don't have any choice but to wait it out so it's nothing more than water cooler talk anyway.
Shoulda fookin' hired Smart, hey?
nm
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 13, 2016, 06:10:56 PM
I don't necessarily disagree with the ROI argument. I just think it's a tough situation. With a non-state school which is not a coaching destination and not in a "cool" geographic location, I believe a school like MU has to "overspend" to even come close to the blue bloods or even the tier below the blue bloods.
Here's the question though, for the ROI argument: What can MU do with that same bball $$$ amount to improve the ROI? Where can the money be allocated within its bball-sphere to get a better return?
Is philly or Cincinnati a "cool" geographic location? You can argue Philly is cooler than Milwaukee but far from cool and Cincinnati is basically St. Louis but two small urban non state schools are getting a decent ROI on their programs
TAMU
You are quite confident in your comments regarding who was and who was not a candidate when Wojo was hired. I do not question that you have some inside scoop but I think you are misguided on some of your comments. Who is/was a candidate is not as clear as you might think it is.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on December 13, 2016, 07:00:52 PM
Is philly or Cincinnati a "cool" geographic location? You can argue Philly is cooler than Milwaukee but far from cool and Cincinnati is basically St. Louis but two small urban non state schools are getting a decent ROI on their programs
Mack is an X alum and Jay Wright was born and raised in Philly. He's as Philly as they come.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on December 13, 2016, 07:00:52 PM
Is philly or Cincinnati a "cool" geographic location? You can argue Philly is cooler than Milwaukee but far from cool and Cincinnati is basically St. Louis but two small urban non state schools are getting a decent ROI on their programs
I assume you're referring to Nova and Xavier (you could throw Butler in that group too). What do they have in common that MU hasn't in the last couple decades? Consistency in culture and coaching. As has been pointed out, both Xavier and Butler have developed coaching in-house and Jay Wright has been around for a while.
Quote from: Goose on December 13, 2016, 07:13:15 PM
TAMU
You are quite confident in your comments regarding who was and who was not a candidate when Wojo was hired. I do not question that you have some inside scoop but I think you are misguided on some of your comments. Who is/was a candidate is not as clear as you might think it is.
FWIW, I specifically remember Howland and Lovell had a chat on the phone, reminiscing about the early 2000 Pitt teams, etc.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 13, 2016, 06:10:56 PM
I don't necessarily disagree with the ROI argument. I just think it's a tough situation. With a non-state school which is not a coaching destination and not in a "cool" geographic location, I believe a school like MU has to "overspend" to even come close to the blue bloods or even the tier below the blue bloods.
Here's the question though, for the ROI argument: What can MU do with that same bball $$$ amount to improve the ROI? Where can the money be allocated within its bball-sphere to get a better return?
A veteran as an assistant coach maybe? Specifically, one that knows Xs and Os and will not be a yes-man (and that Wojo will respect/listen to).
4ever
Shaka left us at the alter and still pisses me off. You, Keefe and I were dancing that night three years ago when we landed him. That was a sad night for any real MU fan.
Quote from: Newsdrms on December 13, 2016, 05:59:08 PM
MU is highly recognized as a BB school outiside US, exposure is probably bigger than most of you think and with Wade and Butler together should trend even higher.
Disagree. Outside of Wisconsin, MU is a non factor to many folks right now. We were a good program.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 13, 2016, 01:57:40 PM
Goose, with all due respect, I don't believe for a second that you are "beginning to believe he is the wrong guy for the job." From what I can see, you and many corners of Marquette fandom have thought that since the day Wojo was hired.
I don't know what it was. Whether it was us believing we were getting Shaka...Or people spreading misinformation about Tony Bennett and Ben Howland being candidates (they weren't)...Or people just hating Duke and anyone from there...Many just decided that they hated the hire and nothing short of immediate success was going to change that.
I would like to hear a solution. Not a complaint. There's no use in saying we shouldn't have hired Wojo because we did. We are here now. And Wojo has done nothing but improve the program since he got here. Every year he's put a better product on the floor. Maybe it's not going as quickly as we would like but it's heading oh the right direction. Is the smart move really to pull the plug and start over? What would that do too the program?
Who should have we hired instead of Wojo? Can you honestly say that anyone else would have given the program more juice? Howland? He plays the most boring style of basketball next to the badgers, is struggling at Mississippi State, and has skeletons in the closet to boot. Cuonzo? Maybe. But he was gifted a great roster and grabbed two burger boys and has been average. He definitely doesn't get rabb to come to Marquette and I doubt he'd get brown here either. He'd probably be where we are now. Oh, he also had a sexual harassment scandal in his first year.
The program was doomed to "run low on juice" long before Wojo was hired. It started when Buzz and Larry got into their who's got the bigger penis contest and it was sealed when Buzz left for VT. Wojo is not responsible for lack of juice, he is however responsible for getting the juice back. I don't know how much better we could have reasonably expected him to do by this point.
Maybe I am in that corner. One of those dudes. I was severely disappointed with the Wojo hire because he was an unproven entity. I had thought that MU had built up enough cachet that we didn't need to go to the bench to get a coach. I wanted to avoid the growing pains. We are currently feeling those pains. So maybe that initial disappointment lingers and I view any mistake that Wojo makes--perceived or actual--as legitimizing my initial doubt.
But, to be fair, there are also people in the other corner who will see anything Wojo does--anything at all--as a positive and the best step of all steps that were possible. I mean, according to Brew we were "this close" to the NCAAs last year, despite missing the NIT and despite never once being on Lunardi's Next Four Out. If you think we just barely missed the tournament last year, then of course you will see Wojo as making tremendous progress. "This guy took us from Derrick-as-leader to just barely missing the tournament!! Lack of progress?!? All I see is progress!"
79Warrior
You are correct on national perception of the program. However, it is still our greatest national marketing tool and that cannot be ignored.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 13, 2016, 06:10:56 PMI don't necessarily disagree with the ROI argument. I just think it's a tough situation. With a non-state school which is not a coaching destination and not in a "cool" geographic location, I believe a school like MU has to "overspend" to even come close to the blue bloods or even the tier below the blue bloods.
Here's the question though, for the ROI argument: What can MU do with that same bball $$$ amount to improve the ROI? Where can the money be allocated within its bball-sphere to get a better return?
The financial stats below for Big East basketball programs come from the Department of Education. Since private institutions don't have to disclose full financial information, the data and comparisons aren't perfect. But I think ROI should be about the last concern about the future of Marquette basketball.
Marquette
$18.6 MM revenue | $12.3 MM expenses | $6.3 MM profit
Villanova
$12.9 MM revenue | $10.7 MM expenses | $2.2 MM profit
Xavier
$12.5 MM revenue | $8.2 MM expenses | $4.3 MM profit
http://college-sports.pointafter.com/compare/11556-13115-15847/Xavier-University-Basketball-vs-Villanova-University-Basketball-vs-Marquette-University-Basketball (http://college-sports.pointafter.com/compare/11556-13115-15847/Xavier-University-Basketball-vs-Villanova-University-Basketball-vs-Marquette-University-Basketball)
Quote from: 79Warrior on December 13, 2016, 07:42:05 PM
Disagree. Outside of Wisconsin, MU is a non factor to many folks right now. We were a good program.
I live outside the mainland US and travel the caribbean and south america think I could know
Five year rebuild as I have said before, which should have started out of the gate. Killer on the NCAA credits. Wojo's supporters donated record moolah last weekend to the cause, however.
Goose, I hear you on the long time basketball alumni support. Too bad the effort at home for the 1977 annversary fell flat with that uninspired defensive effort. Has to be tough for the letterman.
Dr.
Correct on a ton of money raised last weekend and that is great news. Was extremely happy to hear that news.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2016, 01:05:47 PM
(like last year, where 3 one-possession games against DePaul, Belmont, and Creighton probably cost us a bid).
Brew, I consider you one of Scoop's MVPs (most valuable posters). But you are also the ultimate optimist who can spin a silk purse from a sow's ears. If we had won against DePaul, Belmont and Creighton - yes, we likely would have snuck into the NCAAs. But winning those games would have meant that we finished 12-0 in games decided by 5 points or less, 14-0 in those decided by 6 or less. We would have had to be the luckiest team in history, and that's not helpful in providing an honest look at where the program really is. We were VERY LUCKY last year to have the record we had - Pomeroy, Sagerin, all agreed that we weren't as good as our non cupcake 12-13 record indicated.
I haven't given up on Wojo - still hope he turns out to be the answer. But we have to look at it realistically. Saying we could have made the NCAAs if we'd been the luckiest team ever - when the reality is that we were a team that didn't make the NIT in spite of more than its share of good luck - doesn't offer a fair assessment.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2016, 09:06:23 PM
Brew, I consider you one of Scoop's MVPs (most valuable posters). But you are also the ultimate optimist who can spin a silk purse from a sow's ears. If we had won against DePaul, Belmont and Creighton - yes, we likely would have snuck into the NCAAs. But winning those games would have meant that we finished 12-0 in games decided by 5 points or less, 14-0 in those decided by 6 or less. We would have had to be the luckiest team in history, and that's not helpful in providing an honest look at where the program really is. We were VERY LUCKY last year to have the record we had - Pomeroy, Sagerin, all agreed that we weren't as good as our non cupcake 12-13 record indicated.
I haven't given up on Wojo - still hope he turns out to be the answer. But we have to look at it realistically. Saying we could have made the NCAAs if we'd been the luckiest team ever - when the reality is that we were a team that didn't make the NIT in spite of more than its share of good luck - doesn't offer a fair assessment.
This. Should have never been in one possession games at home against DePaul and Belmont if we thought we were going to make the tournament.
My frustrations:
1. The defense. If we don't have the athletes to play his style, why are we still doing it? To me, it looks like they are "over coached" defensively. They don't play naturally. High screen comes and everyone starts looking around at where they should be, instead of playing instinctively, as they have done their whole career. Blame goes to Luke because he isn't quick enough. I don't remember many teams (maybe '14 Creighton), isolating Davante with a high screen. Other teams see how terrible we are at rotations, high screen and they will exploit it the rest of the season. Teams are only to get better in conference. Remember how much better they were supposed to be at the beginning of the year last year because we took the Europe trip? The defense was terrible against Belmont.
2. Is he taking the long view or the short view? If he is truly building the program for 4 to 5 years, why is Reinhardt on the team now? I understand taking Ellenson, but why use a season to run the offense through him, knowing he's headed to the NBA? Everyone wants to win now, but is at the expense of the future? It just feels like he's trying to fit round pegs in square holes
Last year's excuse was that everyone was too young. This year's excuse is that Buzz's guys aren't good enough.As a season ticket holder, I'll probably go to the least amount of games in awhile this year.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2016, 09:06:23 PM
Brew, I consider you one of Scoop's MVPs (most valuable posters). But you are also the ultimate optimist who can spin a silk purse from a sow's ears. If we had won against DePaul, Belmont and Creighton - yes, we likely would have snuck into the NCAAs. But winning those games would have meant that we finished 12-0 in games decided by 5 points or less, 14-0 in those decided by 6 or less. We would have had to be the luckiest team in history, and that's not helpful in providing an honest look at where the program really is. We were VERY LUCKY last year to have the record we had - Pomeroy, Sagerin, all agreed that we weren't as good as our non cupcake 12-13 record indicated.
I haven't given up on Wojo - still hope he turns out to be the answer. But we have to look at it realistically. Saying we could have made the NCAAs if we'd been the luckiest team ever - when the reality is that we were a team that didn't make the NIT in spite of more than its share of good luck - doesn't offer a fair assessment.
I've never disputed that. It's definitely a sword that cuts both ways. Hold on to the leads in the last 30 seconds we're in, but we were also undefeated in overtime and generally did well in such games.
I'm not sold on Wojo. The defense needs to improve. However I'm willing to let him get length to prove he can do that. I've long questioned his roster construction. But I think he deserves 5 years and think he had a much tougher road than Buzz did.
Quote from: Goose on December 13, 2016, 09:53:33 AM
When KO took over we were bottom 20 program in the country. Every new coach inherits transfers and so-so players and really not an excuse. Our talent has been upgraded over two years ago but nothing to plan a parade down Wisconsin Ave. over.
Dang! Did I miss the parade down Wisconsin Ave when KO was coach?
NVM
Quote from: Goose on December 13, 2016, 07:49:44 PM
79Warrior
You are correct on national perception of the program. However, it is still our greatest national marketing tool and that cannot be ignored.
Goose,
I am not disputing that. On the other hand, I saw more publicity the last year about Marquette's Law School political polling than any references to Marquette Basketball out here on the west coast. Sadly, we are rapidly slipping out of the conversation
MU82
There should have been parade down Wisconsin Ave by "true" MU fans for the job KO did. It was truly remarkable the job he did on a rebuild.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 13, 2016, 01:57:40 PM
Or people spreading misinformation about Tony Bennett and Ben Howland being candidates (they weren't)...
Depends on how you define candidate. If you are saying there was no communication with Bennett you are wrong.
Keefe
You are once again spot on!!
Quote from: keefe on December 14, 2016, 02:00:46 AM
Depends on how you define candidate. If you are saying there was no communication with Bennett you are wrong.
It certainly does depend on your definition.
Quote from: Newsdrms on December 13, 2016, 05:59:08 PM
MU is highly recognized as a BB school outiside US, exposure is probably bigger than most of you think and with Wade and Butler together should trend even higher.
I was actually watching some of the Bulls game last night (watching NBA for me is as close to never) just to see D Wade & The Butler have fun playing together which did seem apparent.
TAMU
There is more Bennett communication than a lot of people know. You have to factor in the outside people that send out feelers in these situations. From what I know it was more than a one and done conversation with him. That might not make him a candidate by your definition but I would argue that is how the process begins.
Quote from: Eldon on December 13, 2016, 07:46:03 PM
Maybe I am in that corner. One of those dudes. I was severely disappointed with the Wojo hire because he was an unproven entity. I had thought that MU had built up enough cachet that we didn't need to go to the bench to get a coach. I wanted to avoid the growing pains. We are currently feeling those pains. So maybe that initial disappointment lingers and I view any mistake that Wojo makes--perceived or actual--as legitimizing my initial doubt.
Name the programs from "Power 6" conferences that can realistically get a proven head coach from programs that are above the "mid-major" level. There aren't many.
Big Ten: Only Belein and Crean were successful head coaches at other high level programs.
SEC: Calipari and Martin. Barnes and Howland were out of their jobs.
Big East: No one
Big 12: Self, Smart, Dixson
Pac 12: Alford, Miller, Cuonzo (who was desperate to leave Tennessee)
ACC: Williams, Buzz, Stallings, Pastner, Bennett
So what do you have here? You have a number coaches who were trying to get out because they saw the writing on the wall (Pastner, Stallings), or coaches who just wanted to leave (Buzz, Cuonzo.)
Only in a couple cases do you have coaches from stable programs above the mid-major level leaving to take one of these jobs. And they are mostly blue-blood programs. (Kansas, Texas, Michigan, Indiana, UCLA, Arizona, North Carolina.) A couple exceptions are South Carolina, TCU and Virginia.
It's not as easy as you think to get coaches in good situations to leave.
Quote from: Goose on December 14, 2016, 07:18:02 AM
TAMU
There is more Bennett communication than a lot of people know. You have to factor in the outside people that send out feelers in these situations. From what I know it was more than a one and done conversation with him. That might not make him a candidate by your definition but I would argue that is how the process begins.
That is certainly how some search processes are run. If that is your definition of candidate, then I will say no more.
Quote from: MU82 on December 13, 2016, 10:10:10 PM
Dang! Did I miss the parade down Wisconsin Ave when KO was coach?
Well, many students (and a bunch of alumni) ran down Wisconsin Avenue when Marquette upset Kentucky in 1994 to reach the Sweet 16.
Quote from: Marcus92 on December 13, 2016, 08:16:30 PM
The financial stats below for Big East basketball programs come from the Department of Education. Since private institutions don't have to disclose full financial information, the data and comparisons aren't perfect. But I think ROI should be about the last concern about the future of Marquette basketball.
Marquette
$18.6 MM revenue | $12.3 MM expenses | $6.3 MM profit
Villanova
$12.9 MM revenue | $10.7 MM expenses | $2.2 MM profit
Xavier
$12.5 MM revenue | $8.2 MM expenses | $4.3 MM profit
http://college-sports.pointafter.com/compare/11556-13115-15847/Xavier-University-Basketball-vs-Villanova-University-Basketball-vs-Marquette-University-Basketball (http://college-sports.pointafter.com/compare/11556-13115-15847/Xavier-University-Basketball-vs-Villanova-University-Basketball-vs-Marquette-University-Basketball)
Does not pay to be National Champions.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 13, 2016, 06:10:56 PM
I don't necessarily disagree with the ROI argument. I just think it's a tough situation. With a non-state school which is not a coaching destination and not in a "cool" geographic location, I believe a school like MU has to "overspend" to even come close to the blue bloods or even the tier below the blue bloods.
Here's the question though, for the ROI argument: What can MU do with that same bball $$$ amount to improve the ROI? Where can the money be allocated within its bball-sphere to get a better return?
Looking at the 2015 article, our value is down 16.5%. Yes, there are blue bloods in there, but so are programs like Minnesota, Arkansas, Northwestern, Dayton, Penn State, and South Florida.
Winning cures all, so hopefully we'll start to win and see this improve. I realize we'll never eclipse the likes of Louisville, Kentucky, and North Carolina regardless of spending, but I do feel top-2 spending should be able to result in top-15 to 20 value.
As far as what can be done? Expand the brand. Stop having the Spirit Shop as the only real outlet for Marquette gear. There's virtually nothing at Kohl's, Target, or other retailers. Same goes for online. The same products are on every website at similar prices.
Change the student ticket package to a tiered system that allows full season packages or discounted partial season that removes the winter break games. Offer those leftovers to schools and community centers to increase seating at those games and increase interest in the community.
5 years ago, you never saw any red in inner city Milwaukee. Marquette was Milwaukee's urban team. That has changed and I'd like to see it change back. Product availability and outreach could do that.
Hire a marketing firm to improve how Marquette gets its brand out. I'm a fan of the Lights app, but user penetration at the UW game was disappointing after last year and I'd like to see a stronger push to young professionals through social media.
Reach out to big donors about the possibility of a basketball specific dorm like Kentucky has in the Coal Lodge.
I'm sure others have ideas, but I think there's a lot that could be done. Though obviously, getting back to the tournament would be a massive help.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2016, 08:45:23 AM
Looking at the 2015 article, our value is down 16.5%. Yes, there are blue bloods in there, but so are programs like Minnesota, Arkansas, Northwestern, Dayton, Penn State, and South Florida.
Winning cures all, so hopefully we'll start to win and see this improve. I realize we'll never eclipse the likes of Louisville, Kentucky, and North Carolina regardless of spending, but I do feel top-2 spending should be able to result in top-15 to 20 value.
As far as what can be done? Expand the brand. Stop having the Spirit Shop as the only real outlet for Marquette gear. There's virtually nothing at Kohl's, Target, or other retailers. Same goes for online. The same products are on every website at similar prices.
Change the student ticket package to a tiered system that allows full season packages or discounted partial season that removes the winter break games. Offer those leftovers to schools and community centers to increase seating at those games and increase interest in the community.
5 years ago, you never saw any red in inner city Milwaukee. Marquette was Milwaukee's urban team. That has changed and I'd like to see it change back. Product availability and outreach could do that.
Hire a marketing firm to improve how Marquette gets its brand out. I'm a fan of the Lights app, but user penetration at the UW game was disappointing after last year and I'd like to see a stronger push to young professionals through social media.
Reach out to big donors about the possibility of a basketball specific dorm like Kentucky has in the Coal Lodge.
I'm sure others have ideas, but I think there's a lot that could be done. Though obviously, getting back to the tournament would be a massive help.
This is a huge year for the program, must make the tourney
Quote from: Goose on December 13, 2016, 11:12:39 AM
dgies
Always respect your posts and your love of the program. I agree with most of your post on the Al crowd , with one exception. If MU is not win at all cost program stop spending money like they are. There are far better use of funds at a university, that is not rolling in the dough, than blowing on a mid tier program. Either get real ROI from the program or downsize and use funds elsewhere.
Goose this doesn't make any sense.
The basketball program generates the revenue it spends - and generates more revenue than it spends. If you downsize the program, you aren't going to get the FS1 contract. If you downsize the program, you aren't going to get the donor $$ and season ticket base you have now.
The false assumption is that if you lower your costs to a mid-major program, that the revenue is going to stay the same and can be used elsewhere at the University. That isn't going to happen.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2016, 08:45:23 AM
Looking at the 2015 article, our value is down 16.5%. Yes, there are blue bloods in there, but so are programs like Minnesota, Arkansas, Northwestern, Dayton, Penn State, and South Florida.
Winning cures all, so hopefully we'll start to win and see this improve. I realize we'll never eclipse the likes of Louisville, Kentucky, and North Carolina regardless of spending, but I do feel top-2 spending should be able to result in top-15 to 20 value.
As far as what can be done? Expand the brand. Stop having the Spirit Shop as the only real outlet for Marquette gear. There's virtually nothing at Kohl's, Target, or other retailers. Same goes for online. The same products are on every website at similar prices.
Change the student ticket package to a tiered system that allows full season packages or discounted partial season that removes the winter break games. Offer those leftovers to schools and community centers to increase seating at those games and increase interest in the community.
5 years ago, you never saw any red in inner city Milwaukee. Marquette was Milwaukee's urban team. That has changed and I'd like to see it change back. Product availability and outreach could do that.
Hire a marketing firm to improve how Marquette gets its brand out. I'm a fan of the Lights app, but user penetration at the UW game was disappointing after last year and I'd like to see a stronger push to young professionals through social media.
Reach out to big donors about the possibility of a basketball specific dorm like Kentucky has in the Coal Lodge.
I'm sure others have ideas, but I think there's a lot that could be done. Though obviously, getting back to the tournament would be a massive help.
This has always frustrated me. Not only is the gear hard to find, a lot of it isn't designed that well (in my opinion). Even though I'm a huge MU supporter, I feel like I would only wear a fraction of the small amount of gear that actually is available. It's pretty slim pickin's.
Quote from: GoldenEagles32 on December 14, 2016, 08:49:48 AM
This is a huge year for the program, must make the tourney
I started this topic and I guess it must be time to end it because this statement is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the point I was making.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2016, 08:45:23 AM
Change the student ticket package to a tiered system that allows full season packages or discounted partial season that removes the winter break games. Offer those leftovers to schools and community centers to increase seating at those games and increase interest in the community.
5 years ago, you never saw any red in inner city Milwaukee. Marquette was Milwaukee's urban team. That has changed and I'd like to see it change back. Product availability and outreach could do that.
I like the student ticket idea and the idea of passing along the open student tickets to schools in Milwaukee over breaks.
There is more red in the inner city because Wisconsin basketball has been really good lately, while MU has been down. It's similar to how no one ever saw a GS Warriors jersey in Milwaukee until 2 years ago ;)
Vinnie
You could have Brian Wardle as HC for 20 years at 700k a year and be a bottom half BE team. No need for all the extra expenditures and see what happens. I cannot believe that revenues are not down drastically in regards to the program over the past several years.
I never said downsize the program, I suggested downsizing the budget. I truthfully do not believe have Wardle as HC and lower budget would affect much, with exception of fans have realistic expectations. For the record, I am NOT in the downsize the budget camp. I am in spend as much money as you can and be the best program they can be camp.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 14, 2016, 09:34:36 AMThere is more red in the inner city because Wisconsin basketball has been really good lately, while MU has been down. It's similar to how no one ever saw a GS Warriors jersey in Milwaukee until 2 years ago ;)
The thing is, Wisconsin has been good for 15 years. A decade of success didn't get them inner city penetration. Have the past three years been tough in that regard? Sure, but I think Marquette could do more to stem the 180 that I've seen on Milwaukee's streets.
Quote from: Goose on December 14, 2016, 12:28:25 AM
MU82
There should have been parade down Wisconsin Ave by "true" MU fans for the job KO did. It was truly remarkable the job he did on a rebuild.
Rather than go into this here, I just started a Wojo vs. KO thread. Enjoy.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 14, 2016, 09:34:36 AM
I like the student ticket idea and the idea of passing along the open student tickets to schools in Milwaukee over breaks.
There is more red in the inner city because Wisconsin basketball has been really good lately, while MU has been down. It's similar to how no one ever saw a GS Warriors jersey in Milwaukee until 2 years ago ;)
[/b]
That's not true, I got mine 5 years ago :)