MUScoop

Dude needs to get his sh1t together. I don't give a rat's ass about excuses.

Show me the f#cking money.

Sure.

Quote from: keefe on November 19, 2016, 12:26:23 AM
Dude needs to get his sh1t together. I don't give a rat's ass about excuses.

Show me the f#cking money.

What excuses are being given? We lost a game badly and then lost a close one. It sucks. Let's see how the rest of the season goes.

In a couple of years I hope we can all chuckle at our alarmism, but I feel it is getting late. The lack of player development is a problem, that and just not being very good. Tick tock....

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 19, 2016, 12:50:19 AM
What excuses are being given? We lost a game badly and then lost a close one. It sucks. Let's see how the rest of the season goes.

This season is make or break for this coach. Thus far we are not competitive. At all. That is entirely on the coach.

I am also a Michigan grad but what I saw last night was disgusting. Head to head I pull for Marquette but i took no pleasure in Michigan's win. And blowing the game against Pitt gives me serious pause as to the direction and progress of the Marquette program under this coach.

Beilein's team was ready to play. Can the same be said for our coach's?

Yesterday was tough to swallow.

No way around it, we've seen two VERY poorly coached games in a row. And while we weren't beating Mich anyway, coaching 100% lost that game to Pitt. Simply put, Buzz and TC were further along than Wojo at this point (and mostly with less overall talent), which suggests Wojo lacks some instinctive coaching ability that the other two had (in admittedly different doses).

I really hope this NY tournament serves as the turning point for Wojo to fix what needs fixing. He's got the tools to be a good coach, and he's got the players, so he has simply GOT to overcome whatever deficiencies are holding him back right now. I still think he'll figure it out but he has to realize the "Duke way" is not the "Marquette way." We gotta scrap.

Quote from: keefe on November 19, 2016, 03:24:33 AM
This season is make or break for this coach. Thus far we are not competitive. At all. That is entirely on the coach.

I am also a Michigan grad but what I saw last night was disgusting. Head to head I pull for Marquette but i took no pleasure in Michigan's win. And blowing the game against Pitt gives me serious pause as to the direction and progress of the Marquette program under this coach.

Beilein's team was ready to play. Can the same be said for our coach's?

We blew a high major team out by 30. We blew another team out by 30. We got blown out by a high major team. We lost by 3 to a high major team. I see a team that's competitive but inconsistent. I don't sh*t myself over 1 bad loss and 1 close loss to two high major teams.

I don't think we were well prepared for Michigan. But I also think Michigan had better players than us. Not an excuse, just is. To beat a team with better players you either need to outcoach, your players need to be playing near their ceiling, their players need to be playing near their floor, or some combination. Wojo got outcoached, their players were playing near their best, and our players were playing near their worst. A perfect storm leading to a blowout. It sucks. Didn't enjoy it. Was even worse being there live. But its one game. Until its a pattern with this team, I'm not willing to hit the panic button. Just like I didn't hit the panic button against Vandy, Florida, or Dayton when Buzz was the coach.

Again the problem I have isn't the losing.  It isn't really even the blow out.  Anyone can get blown out.

Its the fact we are losing games the same way for going into the third season now.  It makes me believe he can't correct mistakes.

My position on Wojo remains that he is good at recruiting and is mediocre at coaching. The reason he is mediocre at coaching is he is not capable of earning the respect of his players. He is not the kind of coach a player will run through a wall for.  When times get tough the players do not feel Wojo has their back and thus they play tense.

Compare Wojo to Coach Izzo. Coach Izzo screams and yells and is tough on kids, but to a man they will all tell he has their back and they know he has their best interests at heart.

Coaching is more than X and Os it is leadership and people management.

Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on November 19, 2016, 08:43:38 AM
My position on Wojo remains that he is good at recruiting and is mediocre at coaching.

Agreed.

Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on November 19, 2016, 08:43:38 AM
My position on Wojo remains that he is good at recruiting and is mediocre at coaching. The reason he is mediocre at coaching is he is not capable of earning the respect of his players.

Uh...what?  Evidence?

This program has a lot of work ahead to become what I would love to see them be. It is make or break for Wojo in my opinion. Thus far this year looks like another big project.

Ta me its da lack of talent. Secondly, da kids aren't developin' or complementin' each utter in a normal development, hey?

And I am going to bluntly honest about Wojo's future.

The Marquette administration is going to hope that he grows into the job.  They have to.  They have invested in him through 2020.  He's been given a long leash so he can build the program from the ground up.  Getting rid of him now is simply going to set Marquette basketball back even further.  The Buzz-esque, Juco quick fix option isn't apparently available. 

Now we can Monday morning quarterback it and say we should have hired Cuonzo, or someone else, instead of Wojo.  And we can also lament his coaching shortfalls.

However he is going to be here next year regardless of what happens this year.  (He may be "asked" to make some changes IMO if this year goes down the crapper.)  Likely even the year after that.

Quote from: Babybluejeans on November 19, 2016, 07:35:22 AM
No way around it, we've seen two VERY poorly coached games in a row. And while we weren't beating Mich anyway, coaching 100% lost that game to Pitt. Simply put, Buzz and TC were further along than Wojo at this point (and mostly with less overall talent), which suggests Wojo lacks some instinctive coaching ability that the other two had (in admittedly different doses).

I really hope this NY tournament serves as the turning point for Wojo to fix what needs fixing. He's got the tools to be a good coach, and he's got the players, so he has simply GOT to overcome whatever deficiencies are holding him back right now. I still think he'll figure it out but he has to realize the "Duke way" is not the "Marquette way." We gotta scrap.

I am not convinced of that. All this talk of "great shooters" and we know who they are is just that, talk. Our defense is non-existent and the team just does not know how to win. You can be the best coach in the country, but if your players can't execute what you try to teach them it becomes an exercise in frustration. I saw that on Wojo's face the last two games.   

The problem I have is that we aren't really running an offense that gets our shooters open.  I am hardly an expert on basketball offensive systems, but when I look at how Michigan runs a motion offense that gets their shooters open with clean looks, while ours doesn't do that, I wonder if the system needs a change.

Our execution was very poor on D, bad rotation on ball screens, but just 12 assists boys. Wow that is terrible, the way we lost it in the second half was tough to watch. I don't want to over react yet. This will be a telling year.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 19, 2016, 08:26:40 AM
We blew a high major team out by 30. We blew another team out by 30. We got blown out by a high major team. We lost by 3 to a high major team. I see a team that's competitive but inconsistent. I don't sh*t myself over 1 bad loss and 1 close loss to two high major teams.

I don't think we were well prepared for Michigan. But I also think Michigan had better players than us. Not an excuse, just is. To beat a team with better players you either need to outcoach, your players need to be playing near their ceiling, their players need to be playing near their floor, or some combination. Wojo got outcoached, their players were playing near their best, and our players were playing near their worst. A perfect storm leading to a blowout. It sucks. Didn't enjoy it. Was even worse being there live. But its one game. Until its a pattern with this team, I'm not willing to hit the panic button. Just like I didn't hit the panic button against Vandy, Florida, or Dayton when Buzz was the coach.

Come on, Vandy is now our big win. They are a mess and will finish in the bottom of a weak SEC. Good grief.

Quote from: 79Warrior on November 19, 2016, 09:50:59 AM
Come on, Vandy is now our big win. They are a mess and will finish in the bottom of a weak SEC. Good grief.

The only reason you think they are a mess is because they got blown out by us. You think the season is over after four games. Good grief.

I really have little issues with the offensive end, too much focus ends up there anyway.  My issues are defensively, 3 years 3 sets of pretty different players.  All 3 years atrocious defense. The amount of absolutely wide open shots and layups has been horrifying.  Defense it all about toughness, wojos teams have shown none.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 19, 2016, 10:09:56 AM
The only reason you think they are a mess is because they got blown out by us. You think the season is over after four games. Good grief.

The frame of reference is not 3 games but three seasons. We are watching the same crap over and over.

I am not an alarmist. But I have not witnessed the progress I expect from an enterprise that enjoys such significant investment from its shareholders.

The Michigan tilt was not Wojo's third game but the dismal start of his third season.

Quote from: keefe on November 19, 2016, 10:19:04 AM
The frame of reference is not 3 games but three seasons. We are watching the same crap over and over.

I am not an alarmist. But I have not witnessed the progress I expect from an enterprise that enjoys such significant investment from its shareholders.

The Michigan tilt was not Wojo's third game but the dismal start of his third season.

Yes, it's the start of the season. Just like blowouts to Dayton, Tennessee, Vanderbilt, and Florida were the starts to various Buzz seasons that ended pretty well. Not saying the season is going to be seashells  and balloons. Just saying that 4 games into the season is a little early for fans to be collectively pissing themselves.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 19, 2016, 08:47:29 AM
Agreed.


Uh...what?  Evidence?

Cutting Wally (see DuWil's tweet referencing this):
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=51574.0

Making players feel like idiots for buying into the white t-shirt strategy (which Wojo called a gimmick):
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=49970.msg790087#msg790038


Any deep respect that he had from his players is gone, IMO.  I'm not saying they have abandoned all respect for him in the sense that they outright disrespect him, but I certainly agree with the post above that said that the players will not run through a wall for him.

We hired a rookie coach.  He is (still) making rookie mistakes.  And that sucks.  The amount of money that MU spends on hoops is the clearest sign of its importance to the university's brand.  MU is bearing the cost of Wojo's growing pains, and we have yet to see the benefits.  Frankly, I'm not sure we ever will. 

Quote from: Eldon on November 19, 2016, 10:41:53 AM
Cutting Wally (see DuWil's tweet referencing this):
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=51574.0

Making players feel like idiots for buying into the white t-shirt strategy (which Wojo called a gimmick):
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=49970.msg790087#msg790038

That's not evidence.  Those are actions that you THINK might lead to no respect for the coach.  But is there actual evidence that the players don't respect the coach?

Who is the defensive guru on the staff? Wojo praising Pitt seniors instead of really talking about
the issues on his squad, it seems like team chemistry is lacking, players don't know their roles.
Lack of development in the three years of some presumably high major talent is troubling.

Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 19, 2016, 10:17:13 AM
I really have little issues with the offensive end, too much focus ends up there anyway.  My issues are defensively, 3 years 3 sets of pretty different players.  All 3 years atrocious defense. The amount of absolutely wide open shots and layups has been horrifying.  Defense it all about toughness, wojos teams have shown none.

I was worried watching the Howard game. It just seemed like they got into the paint so easily, which tends to be a hallmark of Wojo coached defenses. We just get beat so easily on penetration and are always in help and recover mode. Coupling that with slow rotations, and we have trouble.

Quote from: Blueprint on November 19, 2016, 10:55:06 AM
Wojo praising Pitt seniors instead of really talking about
the issues on his squad.

If you think we have problems now, just watch what happens when a coach is harsh on his players in public. Cripe, we would make DePaul look great.

You don't know what's going on in the locker room or in private behind closed door talks. I promise Wojo is more aggravated about what's not happening than even we are -- if that is possible!

The real problem is our Warriors teased us with Vanderbilt. The team showed us what we could be when everything is clicking.We beat a pesky though not that great Howard team that had given Michigan fits.

Then we got killed by being our 2015-2016 selves. But even then, there were signs of life.

In the course of a week, we have gone from Final Four to fire Wojo! Or at least make his seat hot.

We saw flashes of brilliance but then we reverted to last year.

Not sure where we are yet, but we'll see.

Quote from: Babybluejeans on November 19, 2016, 07:35:22 AM
No way around it, we've seen two VERY poorly coached games in a row. And while we weren't beating Mich anyway, coaching 100% lost that game to Pitt.

No loss or win is constituted 100% by coaching, or players.  A missed free throw, rebound, shot, those are player actions. 

This team of shooters went 7/26 from 3. This is some on Wojo. But maybe 33%. The rest is us not hitting our 3's.

Make 2 more 3's and we win by 3. You've all said "this is a team if we are on we can win any game, if we are off we can lose any game." Last night we were off by 2 3 pointers.

Frustrating I agree, but this is not solely on Wojo.

It's the defense, we haven't played any in 2+ years and there is no sign that it will ever get better and that's on Wojo and his staff. It's all about attitude and getting after it on the defensive end and we don't have it. We now have an adequate sample and the fact is we suck at defense and I don't see it getting better.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 19, 2016, 10:09:56 AM
The only reason you think they are a mess is because they got blown out by us. You think the season is over after four games. Good grief.

Sure. Thats it. Not that they have no point guard, a new coach trying to instill a his system and a short bench. Other than they they are fine.

Quote from: keefe on November 19, 2016, 10:19:04 AM
The frame of reference is not 3 games but three seasons. We are watching the same crap over and over.

I am not an alarmist. But I have not witnessed the progress I expect from an enterprise that enjoys such significant investment from its shareholders.

The Michigan tilt was not Wojo's third game but the dismal start of his third season.

So sell your shares before Wojo entirely removes any and all value they have.

I want to continue to have patience in Wojo. But at the same time, I just watch Coach Carolyn Kieger and the womens team beat a ranked opponent by double digits.

They started at the exact same time and I really dont think the womens team is any more talented than the mens, but guess what, they started turning it around completely last year and are looking like a NCAA team this year.

Why are there such low expectations for Wojo? The womens team and Coach Kieger started with even a more bare cupboard than Wojo did, but their development is lightyears ahead of the mens. Fair or not, the seat is probably getting warmer if things dont improve quickly.

Who says there are low expectations for Wojo?

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 19, 2016, 08:57:56 AM
And I am going to bluntly honest about Wojo's future.

The Marquette administration is going to hope that he grows into the job.  They have to.  They have invested in him through 2020.  He's been given a long leash so he can build the program from the ground up.  Getting rid of him now is simply going to set Marquette basketball back even further.  The Buzz-esque, Juco quick fix option isn't apparently available. 

Now we can Monday morning quarterback it and say we should have hired Cuonzo, or someone else, instead of Wojo.  And we can also lament his coaching shortfalls.

However he is going to be here next year regardless of what happens this year.  (He may be "asked" to make some changes IMO if this year goes down the crapper.)  Likely even the year after that.

I'm still officially in Wojo's corner. Duz he have worts? Chit yeah, but his contract will have no impact on weather he stays or goes. Da University can't afford ta let a few shekels stand in da way of its cash cow, ai na?

I've said this before and will say it again.  This is going to be another year with no tournament.  Also, next years class will not be immediate contributors.  They just won't be ready.  Losing Luke as our only big and Matt Heldt basically being just awful will really hurt.   Tell me when we make the dance again?   I'm so frustrated.  I can't remember the last time I have been this disinterested. 

Quote from: Goose on November 19, 2016, 08:53:46 AM
This program has a lot of work ahead to become what I would love to see them be. It is make or break for Wojo in my opinion. Thus far this year looks like another big project.

Agree that this season is really important. We're experienced and deep, loaded with top 100 recruits. Hard to imagine next year will be better with 3 starters (and maybe Duane) gone. If we crap the bed this year I see more of the same in 2017-18.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 19, 2016, 04:49:19 PM
Agree that this season is really important. We're experienced and deep, loaded with top 100 recruits. Hard to imagine next year will be better with 3 starters (and maybe Duane) gone. If we crap the bed this year I see more of the same in 2017-18.

Well this is an interesting take.  We have one serviceable player over 6' 8"...how is that "deep" again?

All we've seen over the last two games is what every sane person should have expected to see.  When we play tall, athletic teams we are going to have serious problems.

Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on November 19, 2016, 03:54:53 PM
I want to continue to have patience in Wojo. But at the same time, I just watch Coach Carolyn Kieger and the womens team beat a ranked opponent by double digits.

They started at the exact same time and I really dont think the womens team is any more talented than the mens, but guess what, they started turning it around completely last year and are looking like a NCAA team this year.

Why are there such low expectations for Wojo? The womens team and Coach Kieger started with even a more bare cupboard than Wojo did, but their development is lightyears ahead of the mens. Fair or not, the seat is probably getting warmer if things dont improve quickly.

https://youtu.be/h61h2Isv5EQ

Quote from: muwarrior69 on November 19, 2016, 08:58:35 AM
I am not convinced of that. All this talk of "great shooters" and we know who they are is just that, talk. Our defense is non-existent and the team just does not know how to win. You can be the best coach in the country, but if your players can't execute what you try to teach them it becomes an exercise in frustration. I saw that on Wojo's face the last two games.

Agree 100%.   Our players are just flat out not as good or talented we all thought they would be.  I'm neutral on Wojo, so neither defending nor opposing him.   I think he knows what he's doing but it's a lot easier when you have the advantage of coaching the best of the best every year as he did his entire career prior to coming here.   Hank aside,  he generally isn't going to get anywhere near that kind of talent on a regular basis.   Along with JjJ, DWil was the cream of his class, and now doesn't even start.   I'm not going to argue here wheather he should be or not........that can be debated in another thread.  All I'm saying is  our talent is just not as good as we all want.   I find it very hard to believe Wojo  instructed Rowsey of all people to drive through two monsters on two possessions in a row only to get swatted away like a mosquito on both attempts.  If Wojo did draw up those plays for him,  I'm boarding the Fire Wojo train immediately!

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 19, 2016, 04:56:23 PM
Well this is an interesting take.  We have one serviceable player over 6' 8"...how is that "deep" again?

All we've seen over the last two games is what every sane person should have expected to see.  When we play tall, athletic teams we are going to have serious problems.

We're "deep" because we actually have 10 or 11 guys who can play. Two years ago (as a redshirt freshman) Duane Wilson averaged more than 28 minutes a game. Now it's 15.

Your 2nd paragraph further proves my point. This year we have a top 100 senior big and nobody else with any size (who can play). You think between 2 freshman next (one who's not even a top 200 guy) it will get any better?

Quote from: Disco Hippie on November 19, 2016, 07:48:07 PM
Agree 100%.   Our players are just flat out not as good or talented we all thought they would be.  I'm neutral on Wojo, so neither defending nor opposing him.   I think he knows what he's doing but it's a lot easier when you have the advantage of coaching the best of the best every year as he did his entire career prior to coming here.   Hank aside,  he generally isn't going to get anywhere near that kind of talent on a regular basis.   Along with JjJ, DWil was the cream of his class, and now doesn't even start.   I'm not going to argue here wheather he should be or not........that can be debated in another thread.  All I'm saying is  our talent is just not as good as we all want.   I find it very hard to believe Wojo  instructed Rowsey of all people to drive through two monsters on two possessions in a row only to get swatted away like a mosquito on both attempts.  If Wojo did draw up those plays for him,  I'm boarding the Fire Wojo train immediately!

JJJ was a Buzz recruit, as was DWill.

Quote from: 79Warrior on November 19, 2016, 07:53:14 PM
JJJ was a Buzz recruit, as was DWill.

So true. And Wojo, like lots of other coaches, favors his own. Does anyone really believe that Carter, Howard and Rowsey have earned the right to get approximately the same minutes as Duane? No frackin' way.

I don't have a problem with how Wojo has treated the players he has inherited from Buzz.

Except for Duane.  I just don't get it.

I've been consistently skeptical of Wojo. There are two glaring issues.

Having no "true" 4 is killing us. This is entirely on Wojo. He doesn't get credit for "trying" to get a 4 but missing. Part of being a coach is being able to put together a complete team. He had to know there was a very good chance HE was gone - his backup plan was "I'll try and get a 4 late in the 2016 recruiting season". Not good enough.

Not being able to make in game adjustments. Again, entirely on Wojo. If the momentum swings against you you have to have some tricks up your sleeve to swing it back. Wojo just looks like a deer in headlights.

Can't do anything about not having the "4", it is what it is. We'll lose some games because of that but still could make the post season with this roster if Wojo can coach. If he can, great, let's respect the process and give full support to the project continuing.

If he can't coach, we miss the post season. If that happens he's done in my book and I'll gladly contribute to a fund to pay his buyout, contingent on Scholl resigning as well. A school that spends the money we spend on basketball can't abide this level of sustained mediocrity.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 19, 2016, 08:57:56 AM
And I am going to bluntly honest about Wojo's future.

The Marquette administration is going to hope that he grows into the job.  They have to.  They have invested in him through 2020.  He's been given a long leash so he can build the program from the ground up.  Getting rid of him now is simply going to set Marquette basketball back even further.  The Buzz-esque, Juco quick fix option isn't apparently available. 

Now we can Monday morning quarterback it and say we should have hired Cuonzo, or someone else, instead of Wojo.  And we can also lament his coaching shortfalls.

However he is going to be here next year regardless of what happens this year.  (He may be "asked" to make some changes IMO if this year goes down the crapper.)  Likely even the year after that.


God knows sully and i have had "some" differences, but this time ;D, he's dead on.  wojo is a winner and a fighter.  as someone mentioned in a different post, comparisons to al and his first few years are not comparable.  i disagree.  there have been many coaches who struggled to find their sweet spot.  remember a guy named rick majerus?  all it takes is a few big wins and a trip or two or three to the dance and either they become the guy who kids want to play for or they're gone.

   wojo doesn't put the rock in the hole, but yes, we will need to see some progress

Quote from: keefe on November 19, 2016, 12:26:23 AM
Dude needs to get his sh1t together. I don't give a rat's ass about excuses.

Show me the f#cking money.

Good luck. Maybe MU should set up a safe zone for Wojo. A new concept, hold him accountable? Shocking.

Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 20, 2016, 06:36:17 AM
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 19, 2016, 08:57:56 AM
And I am going to bluntly honest about Wojo's future.

The Marquette administration is going to hope that he grows into the job.  They have to.  They have invested in him through 2020.  He's been given a long leash so he can build the program from the ground up.  Getting rid of him now is simply going to set Marquette basketball back even further.  The Buzz-esque, Juco quick fix option isn't apparently available. 

Now we can Monday morning quarterback it and say we should have hired Cuonzo, or someone else, instead of Wojo.  And we can also lament his coaching shortfalls.

However he is going to be here next year regardless of what happens this year.  (He may be "asked" to make some changes IMO if this year goes down the crapper.)  Likely even the year after that.


God knows sully and i have had "some" differences, but this time ;D, he's dead on.  wojo is a winner and a fighter.  as someone mentioned in a different post, comparisons to al and his first few years are not comparable.  i disagree.  there have been many coaches who struggled to find their sweet spot.  remember a guy named rick majerus?  all it takes is a few big wins and a trip or two or three to the dance and either they become the guy who kids want to play for or they're gone.

   wojo doesn't put the rock in the hole, but yes, we will need to see some progress

I was here/there during the late 60's, our "program" was like our volleyball program is today.
Mythology is a very interesting subject, it might be part of catholicism.

Here we are basihing Wojo, and in the recruiting thread expecting him to land Sam Hauser.  I don't get it.

Quote from: real chili 83 on November 20, 2016, 07:45:54 AM
Here we are basihing Wojo, and in the recruiting thread expecting him to land Sam Hauser.  I don't get it.

I'm thinking you meant Joey. And yes everyone is irrational. WOJO IS THE WORST! Unless we win today. Oh and if we get Joey, put up a statue of Wojo... but let's hang him cause we went 7/26 from 3.

Quote from: real chili 83 on November 20, 2016, 07:45:54 AM
Here we are basihing Wojo, and in the recruiting thread expecting him to land Sam Hauser.  I don't get it.

I think a majority of folks think he is a very good recruiter.  Just like has been asked here many times people question his assistant coach hiring.  As individuals they are all fine.  But one should be a really seasoned X and O guy.  The fact that Wojo hasn't hire one is on him.

Two days later, the losses to Michigan and Pittsburgh both sting hard.  It's no secret that this year had high hopes - not in terms of definitively reaching postseason - but rather finally getting a team that had talent and depth, something that arguably the program has not had since 2012-2013.  The losses exposed holes, there's no doubt, but it is absolutely still way too early to write off the season - and Wojo - for that matter. 

With upcoming games against IUPUI, Houston Baptist, Western Carolina, Saint Francis and SIU-Edwardsville, those are all buy games.  I am not particularly worried about losing any of those games, unless something truly unimaginable occurs.  With additional OOC games against Georgia, Fresno State and Wisconsin, those three games offer additional opportunities against strong competition.

There is still plenty of time to turn this around and compete for a spot in the tournament.  The margin for error is lower, but now we will see what kind of coach Wojo is. What kind of adjustments will he make?  Who will he turn to to right this ship?  How will the players respond? 

We need to take this one game at a time.  If Wojo is not the coach capable of turning this around, then that decision will eventually be made.  But it won't be today, next week or next month.  We need patience and support for our program.

Not a Wojo fan here.  The admin messed up.  I get why they had to go to the other extreme when Buzz left but this program is light years away from where Buzz had it and is closer to DePaul then Villanova.  Thankfully, I think we have the resources that we will never get to the DePaul lows but man, this honestly looks like another year that we don't sniff the NCAA tourney.  That is unacceptable for your flagship program and the gobs of money and resources that get thrown that way.

Some of you can hate on Buzz but you really need to take the blue and gold glasses off.  I am sick of the excuses that are made for why this program is struggling.  Buzz left the cupboard bare.  Wait until Wojo gets his players.  Its only 4 games into the season but we whopped on Vandy(middle of the road program in a Power5 conference that is not close to on par as the Big East).  But if you look at Al's first 3 years or Izzo or Coach K or insert coaching statistic that props up Wojo.....  Man, lets be honest here.  When are we going to stop making excuses for how far this program has fallen?

For all of Buzz's warts, and he had a lot of them and should have been let go, he knew how to win.  I don't think Wojo does. 

Buzz was green as grass as a coach and made lots of bad end game decisions early on in his tenure at MU but he acknowledged that and surrounded himself with veteran coaches.  Wojo surrounds himself with younger wannabes and it seems doesn't see or want to fix the problem. 

You knew what Buzz wanted to do when he had the ball and what he wanted to do defensively.  You don't really know what Wojo wants to do other then be uptempo and chuck 3s.  Defensively? Who knows.

Buzz was able to figure out or put in a system based on the talents he has.  Wojo tries to fit his players into whatever system he envisions in his head.

You knew that Buzz valued toughness.  Wojo doesn't. 

I can go on and on but the point is this is year 3 of project that looks like it is stuck in quicksand.  I and many others don't see any improvements on the court. 

If this year turns out the same or worse then last year, we need to cut bait.  And for those that are looking through their blue and gold glasses, we are 1 injury away to Fisher from having a far worse year then last year.  I don't know about the rest of you but my heart was in my stomach when I saw fish on the court in pain against Howard.  Wojo never should have came into this year with only Fisher and Heldt as your only bigs.  That is again on him and his roster makeup.

Quote from: fjm on November 20, 2016, 09:04:56 AM
I'm thinking you meant Joey. And yes everyone is irrational. WOJO IS THE WORST! Unless we win today. Oh and if we get Joey, put up a statue of Wojo... but let's hang him cause we went 7/26 from 3.

Him too.

Quote from: keefe on November 19, 2016, 12:26:23 AM
Dude needs to get his sh1t together. I don't give a rat's ass about excuses.

Show me the f#cking money.

Is the sky falling too?

Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on November 19, 2016, 03:54:53 PM
I want to continue to have patience in Wojo. But at the same time, I just watch Coach Carolyn Kieger and the womens team beat a ranked opponent by double digits.

They started at the exact same time and I really dont think the womens team is any more talented than the mens, but guess what, they started turning it around completely last year and are looking like a NCAA team this year.

Why are there such low expectations for Wojo? The womens team and Coach Kieger started with even a more bare cupboard than Wojo did, but their development is lightyears ahead of the mens. Fair or not, the seat is probably getting warmer if things dont improve quickly.

I just talked with someone about comparing the men's and women's team. We came to three conclusions. 1. Women's basketball is a different animal than men's. 2. Krieger was a grand slam of a hire. 3. I believe it was Dr. BHeart who said we would have been better off letting all of Buzz' player go and starting from scratch. I scoffed at first but maybe it would have been better. Compare Haanif, Howard, and Hauser to JJJ, Duane, and Sandy. Very different kinds of players. Not sure if the styles mesh. We are where we are now so Wojo needs to figure out how to use the roster he has.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 20, 2016, 11:34:32 AM
I just talked with someone about comparing the men's and women's team. We came to three conclusions. 1. Women's basketball is a different animal than men's. 2. Krieger was a grand slam of a hire. 3. I believe it was Dr. BHeart who said we would have been better off letting all of Buzz' player go and starting from scratch. I scoffed at first but maybe it would have been better. Compare Haanif, Howard, and Hauser to JJJ, Duane, and Sandy. Very different kinds of players. Not sure if the styles mesh. We are where we are now so Wojo needs to figure out how to use the roster he has.

It was me and I was skewered.   ;)

Wojo Recruiting Class 1:  Levin, Wally, Sandy, Carlino. Three transfers.  Wally used two years to get one. Only Sandy played beyond one season.  Levin never made it to The Al. The inevitable then happened which any of us would have predicted:  Mayo (summer), Burton (Xmas), Dawson (Xmas) and Taylor (April) gone as none of them fit Wojo's system. One open scholarship left on the table.  Wasted year.

Wojo Recruiting Class 2:  Nick, Heldt, Henry, Haanif, Traci, Anim, and Rowsey.  Nick signed but never made it. Hank was one and done. Rowsey sat so three years=two. Heldt (injury) and Anim (DNP Coach Decision) were not contributors and are projects even this year. Two scholarships left on table. Great recruiting class, with mixed future implications.

Wojo Recruiting Class 3: Howard, Hauser and Reinhardt.  Katin gives us one year and is playing PF essentially.  Anim red shirts so four=five years. Duane has option to graduate transfer and sees PT reduced.  Rowsey may as well if PT not there. One open scholarship left on the table unused.  Roster miscast and unbalanced which causes identity and playing time issues, while leaving void in the front line depth. Lots for fans to speculate on.

So, seven transfers out/no shows/cuts (with Duane and Sandy a future possibility too). Four one year players (5 a possibility with Rowsey via a log jam at PG). One red shirt and two transfer years without on court productivity. Four unused scholarships.  Other than Haanif, the rest of the recruits remaining have question marks but potential to be seen is there.

Crean, Buzz, Carolyn, etc. went about the ugly business from the get go. Wojo, to me, has squandered his time and resources to turn this thing around and reset his system earlier.  He was hired because of his long term plan, which to be fair, was undisclosed to the public. Fine then. Clearly, it is a minimum five year rebuild plan that he sold in and progress is slow but advancing.  So, here we sit, with a team picked to be in 7th place, and that is where we should set our expectations as fans.

This team is misshapened but when on, will be fun to watch.  It will be exploited when not hitting shots.  No surprises. Wojo will grow with his game prep and situational coaching.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 20, 2016, 01:06:16 PM
It was me and I was skewered.   ;)

Wojo Recruiting Class 1:  Levin, Wally, Sandy, Carlino. Three transfers.  Wally used two years to get one. Only Sandy played beyond one season.  Levin never made it to The Al. The inevitable then happened which any of us would have predicted:  Mayo (summer), Burton (Xmas), Dawson (Xmas) and Taylor (April) gone as none of them fit Wojo's system. One open scholarship left on the table.  Wasted year.

Wojo Recruiting Class 2:  Nick, Heldt, Henry, Haanif, Traci, Anim, and Rowsey.  Nick signed but never made it. Hank was one and done. Rowsey sat so three years=two. Heldt (injury) and Anim (DNP Coach Decision) were not contributors and are projects even this year. Two scholarships left on table. Great recruiting class, with mixed future implications.

Wojo Recruiting Class 3: Howard, Hauser and Reinhardt.  Katin gives us one year and is playing PF essentially.  Anim red shirts so four=five years. Duane has option to graduate transfer and sees PT reduced.  Rowsey may as well if PT not there. One open scholarship left on the table unused.  Roster miscast and unbalanced which causes identity and playing time issues, while leaving void in the front line depth. Lots for fans to speculate on.

So, seven transfers out/no shows/cuts (with Duane and Sandy a future possibility too). Four one year players (5 a possibility with Rowsey via a log jam at PG). One red shirt and two transfer years without on court productivity. Four unused scholarships.  Other than Haanif, the rest of the recruits remaining have question marks but potential to be seen is there.

Crean, Buzz, Carolyn, etc. went about the ugly business from the get go. Wojo, to me, has squandered his tme and resources to turn this thing around and reset his system earlier.  He was hired because of his long term plan, which to be fair, was undisclosed to the public. Fine then. Clearly, it is a minimum five year rebuild plan that he sold in and progress is slow but advancing.  So, here we sit, with a team picked to be in 7th place, and that is where we should set our expectations as fans.

This team is misshapened but when on, while be fun to watch.  It will be exploited when not hitting shots.  No surprises. Wojo will grow with his game prep and situational coaching.

So 2018-2019 is when we should start to get excited. Coincides with the new stadium opening and when the Bucks expect to start competing for the Finals. That's fine, it's just going to be a LOOOONG two years.

If no tournament the next two years, Wojo will have to buy a ticket to get into the new building. A career assistant.

OK, I'll start by saying I'm firmly in Wojo's corner.

This was not a one-year or two-year turn-around. I had hoped this year would be a tournament year and by the time the arena opens, we'd be an elite team again. May still happen but Michigan and Pitt suggests we have a long way to go yet.

I'm of the belief (see other posting) Wojo needs a seasoned, long-time assistant or former head coach as a bench associate. I don't want to effect recruiting because we're doing a great job getting the talent we want into MU. Wojo needs a mentor, or as I said elsewhere, he needs a Hank (Raymonds).

If this Board has its way and we bounce Wojo, what's behind him? I'm not in the mood to start over and I think with some minor adjustments, we're where we need to be. I also am giving our coach the benefit of the doubt and figure we will get better as the season rolls on.

It's four games, folks.

Agree. I'm pro Wojo.

It's 4 games. Got smoked by mich who is better than we all thought. And blew a lead to Pitt which shouldn't have happened.

Lose Wojo and we lose the recruiting and we start the rebuild over. That doesn't sound great. Also I think Wojo is a good person and good for the team.

Patience. Wojo has only missed the tourney 2 times. First year was a guaranteed miss. Last year we should have had NIT if not for all those midmajors losing their conference tourneys.

3 year drought. I blame the first two years on Buzz.

Quote from: dgies9156 on November 20, 2016, 02:21:06 PM
OK, I'll start by saying I'm firmly in Wojo's corner.

This was not a one-year or two-year turn-around. I had hoped this year would be a tournament year and by the time the arena opens, we'd be an elite team again. May still happen but Michigan and Pitt suggests we have a long way to go yet.

I'm of the belief (see other posting) Wojo needs a seasoned, long-time assistant or former head coach as a bench associate. I don't want to effect recruiting because we're doing a great job getting the talent we want into MU. Wojo needs a mentor, or as I said elsewhere, he needs a Hank (Raymonds).

If this Board has its way and we bounce Wojo, what's behind him? I'm not in the mood to start over and I think with some minor adjustments, we're where we need to be. I also am giving our coach the benefit of the doubt and figure we will get better as the season rolls on.

It's four games, folks.

We didn't want a four? No excuse for a program with our resources not to have at least a serviceable player at each position every year.

What concerns me more than anything is how we are becoming irrelevant on the national stage.  Think about what mark this program has left over the last 3 years.  Other than the signing of Henry when else have we made national news?   Maybe wins against Wiscy and Providence last year made news.  Other than that we are on our way to irrelevancy.

And when we have a chance to make a statement in a big game not only do we lose but we get blown out.  Its flat out embarrassing.

We make very little noise in the non conf games, get blown out in our games against top tier teams in the Big East, and then do squat in the BE tournament. 

This coach, staff and players need to get this program to where we are back to being a highly regarded program at the national level.  And that needs to happen this year.

The players don't know the fundamentals!!! so many silly turnovers, charges, bad passes etc. circus shots. the guys are lost out there and idk who else to blame at this point other than the coaching. its disgusting how poor the descion making is on the court sometimes. you look at Nova and its just night and day. if wojo doesn't turn it around this year then I say let him go.

Quote from: GWSwarrior on November 20, 2016, 11:28:39 AM
Is the sky falling too?

This isn't the end of the world. What it is, however, is a Marquette program mired in mediocrity.

There is no discernible progress towards the performance we all want which is measured in NCAA Tournament success.

Does the Scoop Charter contain a codicil requiring absolute adherence to some "feel good" zeitgeist? (which is, in fact, what Johnny Dodds demands over at Scout...)   

Fact is, our basketball team is not competitive for success in the Big East, much less even making the NCAA tournament. Pointing out a legitimate concern is not the same as being destructive.

Quote from: keefe on November 20, 2016, 04:08:16 PM
Pointing out a legitimate concern is not the same as being destructive.

Agreed. But declaring our team not competitive four games into the season due to one blow out loss to a good team is.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 20, 2016, 04:27:24 PM
Agreed. But declaring our team not competitive four games into the season due to one blow out loss to a good team is.

Watching the U of M and Pitt film tells the story. We were not competitive but why? Blue schooled us at both ends of the court. It was painful to watch.

And the Pitt collapse? A very different set of failures.

The performance of the Marquette Men's Basketball Team thus far is mediocre. Hell, Michigan's hoops team is middle of the pack in the Big 10. God help us against Villanova and X.
   

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 20, 2016, 04:27:24 PM
Agreed. But declaring our team not competitive four games into the season due to one blow out loss to a good team is.

I dont think anybody is remotely concerned with the blowout loss to Michigan, it happens. Vandy in 2011-12 Florida the next year, I can deal along with most people here, a big loss to a good team. What is absolutely inexcusable is blowing a 15 point lead to a mediocre at best Pittsburgh team. Pitt aint anything special.

Quote from: keefe on November 20, 2016, 04:37:05 PM
Watching the U of M and Pitt film tells the story. We were not competitive but why? Blue schooled us at both ends of the court. It was painful to watch.

And the Pitt collapse? A very different set of failures.

The performance of the Marquette Men's Basketball Team thus far is mediocre. Hell, Michigan's hoops team is middle of the pack in the Big 10. God help us against Villanova and X.

I forgot how badly all those seasons under buzz went after he got blown out by vandy, Tennessee, Florida, DAYTON, etc.

The Pitt loss hurt but was hardly damning. It was a three point loss on a neutral court to a solid team. We make out to be worse because we have up a big lead. Would it actually be any better if we had gotten blown out in the first half and then fought all the way back only to lose by three?

The team that showed up against vandy is a top half of the big east team. The team that showed up against Michigan is a big east bottom feeder. There is just as much proof that this team is destined for dancing as there is for the contrary. But for some reason  some only want to look at the negative. I'm not saying the vandy game is what we should expect. I'm saying look at the whole picture.

Edited to now add the Sandy transfer this afternoon. 

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 20, 2016, 01:06:16 PM
It was me and I was skewered.   ;)

Wojo Recruiting Class 1:  Levin, Wally, Sandy, Carlino. Three transfers.  Wally used two years to get one. Only Sandy played beyond one season, and now he is gone.  Levin never made it to The Al. The inevitable then happened which any of us would have predicted:  Mayo (summer), Burton (Xmas), Dawson (Xmas) and Taylor (April) gone as none of them fit Wojo's system. One open scholarship left on the table.  Wasted year.

Wojo Recruiting Class 2:  Nick, Heldt, Henry, Haanif, Traci, Anim, and Rowsey.  Nick signed but never made it. Hank was one and done. Rowsey sat so three years=two. Heldt (injury) and Anim (DNP Coach Decision) were not contributors and are projects even this year. Two scholarships left on table. Great recruiting class, with mixed future implications.

Wojo Recruiting Class 3: Howard, Hauser and Reinhardt.  Katin gives us one year and is playing PF essentially.  Anim red shirts so four=five years. Duane has option to graduate transfer and sees PT reduced.  Rowsey may as well if PT not there. One open scholarship left on the table unused.  Roster miscast and unbalanced which causes identity and playing time issues, while leaving void in the front line depth. Lots for fans to speculate on.

So, eight transfers out/no shows/cuts (with Duane a future possibility too besides Sandy today). Four one year players (5 a possibility with Rowsey via a log jam at PG). One red shirt and two transfer years without on court productivity. Four unused scholarships.  Other than Haanif, the rest of the recruits remaining have question marks but potential to be seen is there.

Crean, Buzz, Carolyn, etc. went about the ugly business from the get go. Wojo, to me, has squandered his time and resources to turn this thing around and reset his system earlier.  He was hired because of his long term plan, which to be fair, was undisclosed to the public. Fine then. Clearly, it is a minimum five year rebuild plan that he sold in and progress is slow but advancing.  So, here we sit, with a team picked to be in 7th place, and that is where we should set our expectations as fans.

This team is misshapened but when on, will be fun to watch.  It will be exploited when not hitting shots.  No surprises. Wojo will grow with his game prep and situational coaching.

Blowouts in the Buzz era Wojo weren't particularly worrisome b/c his teams always bounced back and made the NCAAs. Wojo's teams, on the other hand...

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 20, 2016, 04:54:34 PM
I forgot how badly all those seasons under buzz went after he got blown out by vandy, Tennessee, Florida, DAYTON, etc.

The Pitt loss hurt but was hardly damning. It was a three point loss on a neutral court to a solid team. We make out to be worse because we have up a big lead. Would it actually be any better if we had gotten blown out in the first half and then fought all the way back only to lose by three?

The team that showed up against vandy is a top half of the big east team. The team that showed up against Michigan is a big east bottom feeder. There is just as much proof that this team is destined for dancing as there is for the contrary. But for some reason  some only want to look at the negative. I'm not saying the vandy game is what we should expect. I'm saying look at the whole picture.

Tell you what. When we are in the Sweet Sixteen this March I will concede the point. But from what I saw in the past two games we are no where near sniffing the Dance.

Quote from: keefe on November 20, 2016, 04:37:05 PM
Watching the U of M and Pitt film tells the story. We were not competitive but why? Blue schooled us at both ends of the court. It was painful to watch.

And the Pitt collapse? A very different set of failures.

The performance of the Marquette Men's Basketball Team thus far is mediocre. Hell, Michigan's hoops team is middle of the pack in the Big 10. God help us against Villanova and X.

keefe'r-i don't think you are giving your other MU enough credit.  i think the preseason scouting report on michigan was deceivingly under-whelming.  yes, i realize there are no participation trophies given out at this level, but we made a helluva run at them in the 2nd half. 

"You don't really know what Wojo wants to do other then be uptempo and chuck 3s.  Defensively? Who knows."

I sure don't.  I'm sure there is a plan there and I am not smart enough to see it, probably because I am tired of wasted years and won't spend the time to try to figure it out.  Buzz's last year--total waste is all areas.  Wojo 1--waste.  Wojo 2- some good juice, but poor wine.  Wojo 3--Isn't it odd when one of your first recruits leaves ten days into season 3?  I'm getting tired of keeping an open mind and respecting the process.  I don't know who this team is but this seems like year three of trying to make them something they are not.  It's getting old. 

Quote from: keefe on November 20, 2016, 04:08:16 PM
This isn't the end of the world. What it is, however, is a Marquette program mired in mediocrity.

There is no discernible progress towards the performance we all want which is measured in NCAA Tournament success.

Does the Scoop Charter contain a codicil requiring absolute adherence to some "feel good" zeitgeist? (which is, in fact, what Johnny Dodds demands over at Scout...)   

Fact is, our basketball team is not competitive for success in the Big East, much less even making the NCAA tournament. Pointing out a legitimate concern is not the same as being destructive.

Keefe, I've lived and died with Marquette basketball so long that I can't remember Marquette ever not being a part of our home. Probably because it always has been.

I'm disappointed and, candidly, aggravated. I want to be in the NCAA and success isn't just getting in. Success is being an elite program. But, Wojo had better be the right guy and we are on our way -- the alternative is mind-numbingly disconcerting. If he left, the transfers, the reconstruction and rebuilding would have us in never never land until about 2023.

We can't go back. We have to consider where we are. What would you propose we do at this point? I'm all ears -- or eyes as the case may be -- on this one!

And to those of you comparing Wojo to the Hillbilly out in cornfield county, well, the Hillbilly developed all of one freshman in his tenure with us -- and that didn't happen until Vader Blue's junior year.

I'm not yet in the "dump Wojo" camp but what aggrieves me is that he's not doing anything to take advantage of his 11 deep roster of athletic mid-sized players.  He only has one advantage right now, and that's it... 11 capable players.  If he squanders it... his fault.

If he lines 'em up to play ball the "traditional" way with half court D and whatever the hell that offense is, he will lose all the 50/50 games, all the tough games, and a few he shouldn't.

What he needs to do is create something different.

Full court man to man D.  Always, every possession.  And do it DIFFERENT... put Fish on the in bounder, not under the rim where he's going to foul the guy who breaks through. 

On offense, he clearly needs a seasoned "offensive coordinator".  I've been saying this since the beginning of his first season.  He clearly doesn't have an offensive system himself.  What they're doing is unclear and not working, and they need someone to come in and install an offense.  Within that offense, they need to take early, open 3's.  Hauser, JJJ, Du, Rowsey and apparently Katin can make them.  Only open ones.  Stop rushing 3's.  There's nothing better for a shooter's confidence than an open 3 that goes in.  If this is the basis for your offense, then the defense shifts up, focuses on the close out, and leaves cutters and big men with more room. 
Lastly, anyone who takes a wild drive into the middle and just gets stuck/travels/pivots 4 times for a weak fade-away/ makes a forced pass/bad shot/turnover goes to the bench - for at least 10 minutes.  No questions... doesn't matter who, when, or the game situation.  There's gotta be some discipline!

The issue I have is I feel like I'm watching the exact same product I saw a year ago, the product is stale, and I don't want to see the same product a year from now. I don't know how to quantify that into solutions, I think people are trying, effort is there, but not much excitement, and quite frankly tough to see hope. I want to see MU playing in mid March with 63 other teams, it's troubling not seeing that on the horizon, year three in.

Quote from: Class71 on November 20, 2016, 06:49:48 AM
Good luck. Maybe MU should set up a safe zone for Wojo. A new concept, hold him accountable? Shocking.

This is funny because here are you and keefe and bunch of other old people making fun of safe spaces (which strike me as odd, too) and, at the same time, crybabying over your favorite basketball team losing a game.

Quote from: slingkong on November 21, 2016, 02:08:15 PM
This is funny because here are you and keefe and bunch of other old people making fun of safe spaces

Maybe they could all go see Hamilton together. I heard this week that the theater is supposed to be a "safe place".

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 21, 2016, 02:14:34 PM
Maybe they could all go see Hamilton together. I heard this week that the theater is supposed to be a "safe place".

For now. Come January, Broadway goes all white/all male.

Quote from: MUDish on November 20, 2016, 11:58:26 PM
The issue I have is I feel like I'm watching the exact same product I saw a year ago, the product is stale, and I don't want to see the same product a year from now. I don't know how to quantify that into solutions, I think people are trying, effort is there, but not much excitement, and quite frankly tough to see hope. I want to see MU playing in mid March with 63 other teams, it's troubling not seeing that on the horizon, year three in.

That is exactly the same basis for my concern as well.

With Buzz, when we would get blown out by Vandy or Florida, I kind of knew that he would right the ship because he had a track record for doing so.  We seemed to always have a clunker but they learned from it and improved.

With Wojo, I've seen this play before and the ending sucks.  The same things that lead to our demise last year were the same as the year before, and the generally haven't improved as the year has gone on.  And that is what is so disheartening.  Our games against Nova and X are probably going to look similar to last year's games.  We will try hard, hit some shots, but will probably turn the ball over a great deal and our man defense will be as porous as a sieve.

Quote from: slingkong on November 21, 2016, 02:08:15 PM
This is funny because here are you and keefe and bunch of other old people making fun of safe spaces (which strike me as odd, too) and, at the same time, crybabying over your favorite basketball team losing a game.

I have not made fun of safe spaces.

Nor have I been "crybabying" about losing a game.

I have expressed concern  over the very real lack of progress made by the leadership of that team. I was guardedly optimistic that this season would be when Marquette finally turned the corner

The game against Michigan exposed numerous structural problems with this team and where it is headed; frankly, I do not believe we are being well served by the current stewards. While we will likely log around 20 wins this season many will be due to schedule padding. We will probably be sub-.500 in conference play. (Hell, even the Bronze Beast of Bloomington fielded a competitive team during his tenure in a deeper conference with a more difficult schedule.)

What really concerns me is that when we have to play Nova and X we are going to be humiliated. I hope I am wrong but I don't think I will be.

Cough...Howland...cough...

I was a huge proponent of hiring a proven winner but I still think Wojo needs some more time before calling for his head.  Unless we want MU to be the college basketball equivalent of the Cleveland Browns, I think we need to chill and not fire coaches before they have time to get a graduating class or two out the door.

Quote from: humanlung on November 21, 2016, 03:09:52 PM
Cough...Howland...cough...

I was a huge proponent of hiring a proven winner but I still think Wojo needs some more time before calling for his head.  Unless we want MU to be the college basketball equivalent of the Cleveland Browns, I think we need to chill and not fire coaches before they have time to get a graduating class or two out the door.

What about Howland? 14-17 last year, already lost to UCF this year. Super-recruit Malik Newman transferred after one year. Not exactly lighting it on fire down there.

Agreed that Wojo needs time. We all want results and all want the tournament this year, but Wojo is the ultimate anti-Buzz hire, including that he is not a quick fix kind of guy. His first recruits are still only sophomores. The "five years to judge a coach" thing is probably never going to be more apt than it will be with Wojo. We may win some sooner, but this is definitely a system designed to thrive on player development over the years moreso than quick talent injections.

True.  Howland is not lighting it up down there yet.  Both coaches are in the same boat. 

But one has a track record of building programs and achieving a great deal of success and one does not.  Wojo might very well achieve more than Howland eventually but it is definitely the higher risk bet.

Quote from: humanlung on November 21, 2016, 03:22:59 PM
True.  Howland is not lighting it up down there yet.  Both coaches are in the same boat. 

But one has a track record of building programs and achieving a great deal of success and one does not.  Wojo might very well achieve more than Howland eventually but it is definitely the higher risk bet.

Okay...here's the thing, Howland has a huge reputation as an asshat. He's not loved by his players and creates a hostile atmosphere. This isn't a secret, it's pretty well known. After the stuff that happened under Buzz, Marquette would have never, NEVER even remotely considered Howland. That's why he wasn't brought in for an interview. That's why there was really only one person out there saying "sources tell me Howland is a candidate for Marquette" and I would bet dollars to donuts those "sources" were Ben Howland himself.

Did Howland want our job? Absolutely. Did he ever have a shot at getting it? No. Not remotely. Better chance Marquette would have hired the Hologram Al Twitter account than went with Howland.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 21, 2016, 03:49:30 PM
Okay...here's the thing, Howland has a huge reputation as an asshat. He's not loved by his players and creates a hostile atmosphere. This isn't a secret, it's pretty well known. After the stuff that happened under Buzz, Marquette would have never, NEVER even remotely considered Howland. That's why he wasn't brought in for an interview. That's why there was really only one person out there saying "sources tell me Howland is a candidate for Marquette" and I would bet dollars to donuts those "sources" were Ben Howland himself.

Did Howland want our job? Absolutely. Did he ever have a shot at getting it? No. Not remotely. Better chance Marquette would have hired the Hologram Al Twitter account than went with Howland.

Winner winner

Quote from: keefe on November 21, 2016, 03:05:30 PM

What really concerns me is that when we have to play Nova and X we are going to be humiliated. I hope I am wrong but I don't think I will be.

That's exactly it. Previous MU teams with obvious weaknesses across the last 15 years could still take down a conference powerhouse. And by doing so, they threw themselves into contention for tourney spots. The Wojo teams seem largely incapable of doing that, which is why many of us are rightly concerned about playing teams like Nova and X (the powerhouses of the Wojo era). In contrast to those earlier teams, the Wojo teams have lacked the ability to make up for deficiencies with grit and creative strategy.

Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on November 19, 2016, 04:18:34 PM
Who says there are low expectations for Wojo?

It appears the university did a few years back when it gave him an extension after a win over a cupcake. 

To dr blackheart:.               So....without ANY evidence, we are now assuming Duane AND Rousey are transferring?????    What gives you this great power of seeing the future?   I'll await your answer, Nostradamus.

Good teams aren't always evident early in the season.

Last year, Wisconsin lost to Western Illinois (unranked) at home. Then lost to Georgetown (unranked) on a neutral court. Then lost to UW-M (unranked) and Marquette (unranked) at home. Then stumbled their way to a 1-4 start in Big Ten conference play. Their overall record at the time: 9-9. That team made the Sweet 16.

Going 2-2 to open the year is not a crisis. Michigan and Pitt aren't even bad losses. We have meaningful games left in the non-conference schedule — not to mention 18 games in the 3rd toughest conference in the country. Let's see how Wojo and the players adjust and progress over the next month and a half.

Or you can panic and give up on the season and the program right now.

Quote from: keefe on November 20, 2016, 04:08:16 PM
This isn't the end of the world. What it is, however, is a Marquette program mired in mediocrity.

There is no discernible progress towards the performance we all want which is measured in NCAA Tournament success.

Does the Scoop Charter contain a codicil requiring absolute adherence to some "feel good" zeitgeist? (which is, in fact, what Johnny Dodds demands over at Scout...)   

Fact is, our basketball team is not competitive for success in the Big East, much less even making the NCAA tournament. Pointing out a legitimate concern is not the same as being destructive.

The great thing about this site is there are alternative opinions allowed . Unlike Scout where you must toe the company line.

Quote from: Marcus92 on November 21, 2016, 07:16:59 PM
Good teams aren't always evident early in the season.

Last year, Wisconsin lost to Western Illinois (unranked) at home. Then lost to Georgetown (unranked) on a neutral court. Then lost to UW-M (unranked) and Marquette (unranked) at home. Then stumbled their way to a 1-4 start in Big Ten conference play. Their overall record at the time: 9-9. That team made the Sweet 16.

Going 2-2 to open the year is not a crisis. Michigan and Pitt aren't even bad losses. We have meaningful games left in the non-conference schedule — not to mention 18 games in the 3rd toughest conference in the country. Let's see how Wojo and the players adjust and progress over the next month and a half.

Or you can panic and give up on the season and the program right now.

Good advice in general but the WI example is the worst example for those expressing displeasure. Getting rid of Bo removed a distraction.

Quote from: jdbied on November 21, 2016, 06:36:44 PM
To dr blackheart:.               So....without ANY evidence, we are now assuming Duane AND Rousey are transferring?????    What gives you this great power of seeing the future?   I'll await your answer, Nostradamus.

So at 1:06 PM I had Sandy on that list as posted here with a time stamp and a few hours later he was gone.  If you want Duane "answers", do a Scoop search from this summer that was backed up by many proven posters here.  I'll leave at that.  And "potential" does not mean "has" transferred. 

Who are your sources, 8 Post Wonder?

Got family that's Nova, SHU, GT. What I'm getting from them is: MU has too much talent to be playing like this. I kinda agree. Recruit 'em, but don't coach 'em up. I'm hearing what other posters are saying - it's likely that Wojo has another year after this free and clear. The so-called "trajectory" is flatter than we would like. Others are saying: "If he goes, chaos will ensue."
I had hoped for tournament action this year. It doesn't look like a reasonable possibility. Looking at the scholarship table, if it doesn't happen this year, how will it happen next year? Hani, Sam and Matt might progress but is that going to make a non-tourney team one that will get in?

Bottom line: this year is his last pass. If he does not deliver next year I think we need to look elsewhere.

Quote from: mileskishnish72 on November 21, 2016, 08:30:48 PM
Got family that's Nova, SHU, GT. What I'm getting from them is: MU has too much talent to be playing like this. I kinda agree. Recruit 'em, but don't coach 'em up. I'm hearing what other posters are saying - it's likely that Wojo has another year after this free and clear. The so-called "trajectory" is flatter than we would like. Others are saying: "If he goes, chaos will ensue."
I had hoped for tournament action this year. It doesn't look like a reasonable possibility. Looking at the scholarship table, if it doesn't happen this year, how will it happen next year? Hani, Sam and Matt might progress but is that going to make a non-tourney team one that will get in?

Bottom line: this year is his last pass. If he does not deliver next year I think we need to look elsewhere.

I am confident Stan Johnson could retain all the recruits and the players would enjoy playing for him. Lets move in the direction of Stan soon.

Uhh guys we are 2-2 its not terrible but i agree we should be playing better. We still have the whole season left.

Quote from: Marcus92 on November 21, 2016, 07:16:59 PM
Good teams aren't always evident early in the season.

Last year, Wisconsin lost to Western Illinois (unranked) at home. Then lost to Georgetown (unranked) on a neutral court. Then lost to UW-M (unranked) and Marquette (unranked) at home. Then stumbled their way to a 1-4 start in Big Ten conference play. Their overall record at the time: 9-9. That team made the Sweet 16.

Going 2-2 to open the year is not a crisis. Michigan and Pitt aren't even bad losses. We have meaningful games left in the non-conference schedule — not to mention 18 games in the 3rd toughest conference in the country. Let's see how Wojo and the players adjust and progress over the next month and a half.

Or you can panic and give up on the season and the program right now.

Silly.

Logic, facts, stats, history ... all silly.

So much easier to assume the season is over, resign ourselves to dumping the coach, watch most of his good players follow him out the door, and rebuild again. Much easier.

Quote from: Babybluejeans on November 21, 2016, 05:12:34 PM
That's exactly it. Previous MU teams with obvious weaknesses across the last 15 years could still take down a conference powerhouse. And by doing so, they threw themselves into contention for tourney spots. The Wojo teams seem largely incapable of doing that, which is why many of us are rightly concerned about playing teams like Nova and X (the powerhouses of the Wojo era). In contrast to those earlier teams, the Wojo teams have lacked the ability to make up for deficiencies with grit and creative strategy.

Like Providence last season?

Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on November 21, 2016, 08:36:46 PM
I am confident Stan Johnson could retain all the recruits and the players would enjoy playing for him. Lets move in the direction of Stan soon.

Is that what your boy, JJJ, is telling you?

Quote from: jesmu84 on November 21, 2016, 11:49:52 PM
Like Providence last season?

That's exactly my point. The signature win of the Wojo era was not against the conference elite like X or Nova, but against Providence -- a team that finished the regular season and postseason unranked, an 8-seed in the NCAA tourney, and tied for fourth in the conference.

Quote from: Babybluejeans on November 22, 2016, 07:31:15 AM
That's exactly my point. The signature win of the Wojo era was not against the conference elite like X or Nova, but against Providence -- a team that finished the regular season and postseason unranked, an 8-seed in the NCAA tourney, and tied for fourth in the conference.

Providence finished 4th at 10-8 instead of 3rd at 12-6 because Wojo's lads beat them twice.

Providence went from No. 8 in the Week 9 rankings to No. 12 in the Week 10 rankings because Wojo's lads beat them at Providence.

Providence was still ranked No. 20 in February ... until Wojo's lads beat them on Feb. 10.

So yes, Providence finished exactly as you say -- unranked and in 4th place. But Wojo's lads had a little something to do with that.

I mean, the Broncos' signature win in last year's playoffs was over a Panthers team that lost its final game, you know?

Quote from: MU82 on November 22, 2016, 08:06:17 AM
Providence finished 4th at 10-8 instead of 3rd at 12-6 because Wojo's lads beat them twice.

Providence went from No. 8 in the Week 9 rankings to No. 12 in the Week 10 rankings because Wojo's lads beat them at Providence.

Providence was still ranked No. 20 in February ... until Wojo's lads beat them on Feb. 10.

So yes, Providence finished exactly as you say -- unranked and in 4th place. But Wojo's lads had a little something to do with that.

I mean, the Broncos' signature win in last year's playoffs was over a Panthers team that lost its final game, you know?

I have no truck with arguing whether Providence was good last year, even though you compared the Super Bowl winners to MU 2015-16. I'll give you that: Providence was good. But they weren't elite, of the level Villanova and Xavier have been consistently playing. Hope this year is different and we can get a win between one or the both of them, but I still echo Keefe's point that they're not games I'm especially looking forward to.

Haven't gone through the entire thread, but thought this would be good of time as any to share.

Been hearing for last couple years that Wojo's actual in-game coaching ability is suspect. Before any says "source" -- I'm talking about people privy to huddles, etc. People who are rooting for us. Wojo is a great guy and recruiter. He "lives" the floor slap -- motivation, go harder, push through it, win. That is also how he coaches. His message is "try harder." That works for some kids, but others need to be told exactly what to do on the court, in the game. I've heard him described as the exact opposite of Brad Stevens, who by all accounts is a technician. Successful coaches don't need to have it all, but they do need to recognize their deficits. And they typically fill those deficits with assistants. I'm not sure they have any "technicians" on the staff, rather other "motivators." Just my two cents.

I am still in Wojo's corner, but during the Michigan game (IIRC) they cut to him on the bench sitting hunched with a lost little boy look on his face.    Not what I wanted to see. 

Quote from: Freeport Warrior on November 22, 2016, 08:28:12 AM
Haven't gone through the entire thread, but thought this would be good of time as any to share.

Been hearing for last couple years that Wojo's actual in-game coaching ability is suspect. Before any says "source" -- I'm talking about people privy to huddles, etc. People who are rooting for us. Wojo is a great guy and recruiter. He "lives" the floor slap -- motivation, go harder, push through it, win. That is also how he coaches. His message is "try harder." That works for some kids, but others need to be told exactly what to do in order to get better. I've heard him described as the exact opposite of Brad Stevens, who by all accounts is a technician. Successful coaches don't need to have it all, but they do need to recognize their deficits. And they typically fill those deficits with assistants. I'm not sure they have any "technicians" on the staff, rather other "motivators." Just my two cents.

The good thing is that great technicians are much easier to find then great recruiters/motivators.  Here's one thing that does seem to be true.  I have no sense that Wojo is so egocentric that he can't take suggestion to heart.  If something remains 'lacking' throughout the season, I'd sincerely hope he brings in that type of guy for next year.  I guess that's the Hank thread.

Quote from: jsglow on November 22, 2016, 08:36:06 AM
The good thing is that great technicians are much easier to find then great recruiters/motivators.  Here's one thing that does seem to be true.  I have no sense that Wojo is so egocentric that he can't take suggestion to heart.  If something remains 'lacking' throughout the season, I'd sincerely hope he brings in that type of guy for next year.  I guess that's the Hank thread.

I just don't see Wojo as a motivator. I see him as a de-motivator.

He is good with recruiting, because he has a good sales pitch that appeals to families.

Quote from: Freeport Warrior on November 22, 2016, 08:28:12 AM
Haven't gone through the entire thread, but thought this would be good of time as any to share.

Been hearing for last couple years that Wojo's actual in-game coaching ability is suspect. Before any says "source" -- I'm talking about people privy to huddles, etc. People who are rooting for us. Wojo is a great guy and recruiter. He "lives" the floor slap -- motivation, go harder, push through it, win. That is also how he coaches. His message is "try harder." That works for some kids, but others need to be told exactly what to do on the court, in the game. I've heard him described as the exact opposite of Brad Stevens, who by all accounts is a technician. Successful coaches don't need to have it all, but they do need to recognize their deficits. And they typically fill those deficits with assistants. I'm not sure they have any "technicians" on the staff, rather other "motivators." Just my two cents.

I have absolutely no doubts that this is the case.  It is pretty evident in the team's performance. 

Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on November 22, 2016, 08:39:20 AM
I just don't see Wojo as a motivator. I see him as a de-motivator.

The evidence doesn't bear this out.

Quote from: jsglow on November 22, 2016, 08:36:06 AM
The good thing is that great technicians are much easier to find then great recruiters/motivators.  Here's one thing that does seem to be true.  I have no sense that Wojo is so egocentric that he can't take suggestion to heart.  If something remains 'lacking' throughout the season, I'd sincerely hope he brings in that type of guy for next year.  I guess that's the Hank thread.

I think the AD has a role in this soul searching if it truly is an inhibitor to success.

Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on November 22, 2016, 08:39:20 AM
I just don't see Wojo as a motivator. I see him as a de-motivator.

Any proof? Figured I'd ask for the 19th time.

Because typically when you have a player like Sacar Anim heaping praise on a coach after being told he was going to redshirt, it means the opposite.

And for all your complaints about how he treats JJJ, he's only gotten better under wojo and has never transferred despite scoops insistance that he was gowne.

Quote from: Freeport Warrior on November 22, 2016, 08:28:12 AM
Haven't gone through the entire thread, but thought this would be good of time as any to share.

Been hearing for last couple years that Wojo's actual in-game coaching ability is suspect. Before any says "source" -- I'm talking about people privy to huddles, etc. People who are rooting for us. Wojo is a great guy and recruiter. He "lives" the floor slap -- motivation, go harder, push through it, win. That is also how he coaches. His message is "try harder." That works for some kids, but others need to be told exactly what to do on the court, in the game. I've heard him described as the exact opposite of Brad Stevens, who by all accounts is a technician. Successful coaches don't need to have it all, but they do need to recognize their deficits. And they typically fill those deficits with assistants. I'm not sure they have any "technicians" on the staff, rather other "motivators." Just my two cents.

This is 100% my belief and my concern. Was hoping there would be a coaching staff update this off-season but wasn't in the cards. I get why the staff is the way it is and everyone is useful, but there is no savvy X and O coach on the bench to help out.

Wojo reminds me of Tikhonov on the bench at the end of the movie Miracle just plucking away at his eyebrow because he doesn't really know what to do.

Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on November 22, 2016, 08:39:20 AM
I just don't see Wojo as a motivator. I see him as a de-motivator.

Maybe you are not understanding me. He yells. He's rah rah. He gets guys to push their bodies, to suck it up. He motivates to excel from a physical standpoint and gets just about all he can from an effort standpoint. By all accounts, this is his strong suit. But like I stated, that is just part of the equation.

Quote from: Freeport Warrior on November 22, 2016, 08:58:57 AM
Maybe you are not understanding me. He yells. He's rah rah. He gets guys to push their bodies, to suck it up. He motivates to excel from a physical standpoint and gets just about all he can from an effort standpoint. By all accounts, this is his strong suit. But like I stated, that is just part of the equation.

No he understands you.  He just thinks he knows better.

Quote from: Freeport Warrior on November 22, 2016, 08:58:57 AM
Maybe you are not understanding me. He yells. He's rah rah. He gets guys to push their bodies, to suck it up. He motivates to excel from a physical standpoint and gets just about all he can from an effort standpoint. By all accounts, this is his strong suit. But like I stated, that is just part of the equation.

I understand what you are saying for sure.  The product looks that way as a fan.

I would say that what you describe is also stereo-typical for the athlete coach - particularly one that came with incredible raw physical talent.  I don't know that I would automatically assume that Wojo fits that mold but its definitely not the first time this story has been written.  In addition if you look down our bench they are not a diverse bunch -- all the same background. 

It did not take me a long time to figure out that Wojo's TO huddles were not deep in substance. I remember early on hearing my wife and mother in law laughing about Wojo's huddle conversation with the team. They literally could not believe that every time the mic was in huddle he was screaming the same useless stuff.

IMO it is becoming painfully obvious why Wojo was AC for some years and not a HC. He came across as a safe hire and got the job. We will see over the next months if Wojo can hack it or not. In addition, we will learn if MU wants a big time ball program or not. A lot riding on the remainder of season.

I think there's a lot of revisionist "memories" here.  Out of timeouts, the team *usually* executes one good play.  After that, all bets are off.

Agree though that a grizzled presence on the bench would add some benefit to this young staff.

Quote from: Goose on November 22, 2016, 09:22:51 AM
It did not take me a long time to figure out that Wojo's TO huddles were not deep in substance. I remember early on hearing my wife and mother in law laughing about Wojo's huddle conversation with the team. They literally could not believe that every time the mic was in huddle he was screaming the same useless stuff.

IMO it is becoming painfully obvious why Wojo was AC for some years and not a HC. He came across as a safe hire and got the job. We will see over the next months if Wojo can hack it or not. In addition, we will learn if MU wants a big time ball program or not. A lot riding on the remainder of season.

If your wife and MiL are basing their judgement on TV coverage of his game coverage, they may be more clueless than Wojo. TV will only show the rah rah/platitude stuff, very poor measure of how he runs his huddles. Not saying his huddles aren't a problem just saying we can't know that based on what we're allowed to see.

MU03eng

Both TV and sitting courtside.

Quote from: Goose on November 22, 2016, 09:28:52 AM
MU03eng

Both TV and sitting courtside.

Well that's certainly more disconcerting then.

Quote from: mu03eng on November 22, 2016, 10:02:34 AM
Well that's certainly more disconcerting then.

Yep...I'm really concerned now that Goose's wife and mother in-law are so concerned.

Just ta start a chit storm, Wojo would be a much better coach dis season wit HE in his startin' 5, ai na?

The fact that Thurl Bailey, a college great and a guy who played 10 years in the NBA and averaged 12 points and 5 rebounds per game, is trusting Wojo to coach his son tells me that people who understand the game a lot better than anybody on MUScoop does trust that Wojo is a good enough coach to put his son's playing career in his hands.  Not to mention Sam Hauser, whose dad coaches and who clearly has been coached well up to this point.  If Bailey decommits, Sam transfers, and Joey Hauser immediately eliminates us from consideration, I'll be concerned about Wojo's ability to coach kids.

sheesh, a bunch of chicken littles after just 4 games, give it some time

kind of like Matty's article today about the unsettled PG position, it takes time to determine the rotations etc.

Atl MU Warrior

Actually my wife and MIL are like 97% of the MU fans that could care less. They will go to Miss Katie's for pregame, take bus to the nearly empty BC and enjoy socializing before and after games. I on the other hand, have very big concerns over a below average ball program and overall impact it has on the university.

It is funny the glass half full crowd on here. IMO most do not understand the overall impact basketball has on the success of the university. Quite honestly, crossing your fingers and hoping Wojo is a success is not a plan.

You can mock me about about wife and MIL all day long, but I can assure you my assessment is not based off their belief that Wojo is a joke. I have seen quite a bit of basketball in my day and have ZERO problem standing behind my assessments or beliefs. Once again MU has put themselves in a do or die crossroads with the basketball program. For this alum, parent of students, basketball fan and backer of school I am very uncomfortable with ROI on the program.

Quote from: Goose on November 22, 2016, 10:25:56 AM
Atl MU Warrior

Actually my wife and MIL are like 97% of the MU fans that could care less. They will go to Miss Katie's for pregame, take bus to the nearly empty BC and enjoy socializing before and after games. I on the other hand, have very big concerns over a below average ball program and overall impact it has on the university.

It is funny the glass half full crowd on here. IMO most do not understand the overall impact basketball has on the success of the university. Quite honestly, crossing your fingers and hoping Wojo is a success is not a plan.

So what is your proposed plan?

Quote from: MU82 on November 22, 2016, 08:06:17 AM
Providence finished 4th at 10-8 instead of 3rd at 12-6 because Wojo's lads beat them twice.

Providence went from No. 8 in the Week 9 rankings to No. 12 in the Week 10 rankings because Wojo's lads beat them at Providence.

Providence was still ranked No. 20 in February ... until Wojo's lads beat them on Feb. 10.

So yes, Providence finished exactly as you say -- unranked and in 4th place. But Wojo's lads had a little something to do with that.

I mean, the Broncos' signature win in last year's playoffs was over a Panthers team that lost its final game, you know?

Wojo's lads had a winning record against 2 Big East teams last year: epically bad St John's (3-0) and solid Providence (2-0). Wojo's lads split with woeful DePaul, mostly bad Georgetown, decent Creighton and solid Butler. Against elite Villanova, really, really good Xavier and really good Seton Hall, Wojo's lads were 0-7. Wojo's lads lost those 7 games by an aggregate 96 points, never finishing closer than 8 in any of those games.

A couple of chapters of "Wojo's Lads" were good last year, the author showed some promise. But the book was a disappointment. Even a skilled editor like yourself can't change that.

Quote from: Goose on November 22, 2016, 09:28:52 AM
MU03eng

Both TV and sitting courtside.

I just sat courtside for the NYC tournament. Add close to the huddle as you can be without being in the huddle. The crowd was dead and I was trying to listen in. If you heard anything in the huddle from courtside than you sir have super powered hearing.

I did hear what was being said on the bench. I can confirm that on the bench, wojo is just the effort and motivation guy. Stan and Brett would be talking to individual players about technique. Chris was more motivation. I like Chris but he does seem like the superfluous piece. Would not mind wojo finding his Jerry Wainwright.

Wojo is still learning and developing as a coach, which is OK.  I'm fine giving him a few more years to get things rolling.  However, we're paying him an awful lot for this on-the-job training.  We're clearly not getting our return on investment at this point.  Hopefully things turn around soon and we make it up in the next few years.

Quote from: MU82 on November 21, 2016, 10:57:30 PM
Silly.

Logic, facts, stats, history ... all silly.

So much easier to assume the season is over, resign ourselves to dumping the coach, watch most of his good players follow him out the door, and rebuild again. Much easier.

How is that post logic and facts?  So Wisconsin started off bad and finished well.  For every team like Wisconsin there are a dozen teams that started out bad and continued to be bad.  I agree that the season is far from over and we may turn this around, but poor play is a much better indicator of future poor play than it is of future good play. 

Wojo has yet to prove his coaching ability. But deciding that he can't coach based on 30 seconds' worth of time in the huddle — in the middle of a game — sounds ludicrous.

A timeout isn't the place for deep strategy discussion. The coach draws up a play and makes sure everyone understands it. Or he makes one point of emphasis: block out, communicate on the floor, pressure the ball all the way up the court. And yes, sometimes a few words of encouragement.

Far more coaching happens out of sight during halftime and practice. Now I haven't sat in on Wojo's game prep, film review or halftime talk. But I do know that after allowing Michigan to score 50 points in the first half, MU came out much more focused to start the second — and outscored the Wolverines 35-29. While it wasn't enough to get the win, that suggests a good adjustment by the coaching staff.

I'm as frustrated as anyone with games like Michigan and Pitt. A good coach uses experiences like those to help players learn and improve. Let's see how Wojo and the team respond. I'm still optimistic about the season.

MU82

I DO NOT THINK THE SEASON IS OVER AT ALL. That said, you do need to have a plan in case things do go south in a hurry. I am far from giving up on Wojo, but the leash I would have as his boss would be shorter today than a year ago. MU basketball can afford to have another year of losing loyal fans due to crap on the court IMO.

Quote from: CTWarrior on November 22, 2016, 10:38:40 AM
How is that post logic and facts?  So Wisconsin started off bad and finished well.  For every team like Wisconsin there are a dozen teams that started out bad and continued to be bad.  I agree that the season is far from over and we may turn this around, but poor play is a much better indicator of future poor play than it is of future good play.

MU82 , like myself, challenges people when they state opinions as fact. I think most of us have concerns and doubts about this season, hell, preseason I picked us 7th in conference and out of the tournament, but those that have declared that we are unequivocally doomed are silly. He's not refuting the opinion, just the way it's presented.

The season is not over yet come one we are 2-2 that is better than 1-3 or 0-4
I have a feeling we can get 11 or 12 big east wins. That should put us in the tourney

Quote from: Goose on November 22, 2016, 10:42:42 AM
MU82

I DO NOT THINK THE SEASON IS OVER AT ALL. That said, you do need to have a plan in case things do go south in a hurry. I am far from giving up on Wojo, but the leash I would have as his boss would be shorter today than a year ago. MU basketball can afford to have another year of losing loyal fans due to crap on the court IMO.

I agree we can't afford to lose more fans. Which is why firing Wojo  and nuking the program would be a terrible idea. I'm sure you've seen plenty of coaching transitions in your day. Do you really think there's a coach out there who could take over without seeing back the rebuild by at least a few years?

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 22, 2016, 10:47:52 AM
I agree we can't afford to lose more fans. Which is why firing Wojo  and nuking the program would be a terrible idea. I'm sure you've seen plenty of coaching transitions in your day. Do you really think there's a coach out there who could take over without seeing back the rebuild by at least a few years?

IF we DONT make the tourney just give him one more year. Im confident in this team.

Quote from: Goose on November 22, 2016, 10:25:56 AM
Atl MU Warrior

Actually my wife and MIL are like 97% of the MU fans that could care less. They will go to Miss Katie's for pregame, take bus to the nearly empty BC and enjoy socializing before and after games. I on the other hand, have very big concerns over a below average ball program and overall impact it has on the university.

It is funny the glass half full crowd on here. IMO most do not understand the overall impact basketball has on the success of the university. Quite honestly, crossing your fingers and hoping Wojo is a success is not a plan.

You can mock me about about wife and MIL all day long, but I can assure you my assessment is not based off their belief that Wojo is a joke. I have seen quite a bit of basketball in my day and have ZERO problem standing behind my assessments or beliefs. Once again MU has put themselves in a do or die crossroads with the basketball program. For this alum, parent of students, basketball fan and backer of school I am very uncomfortable with ROI on the program.

That's all well and good Goose.  I guess I just don't put a lot of stock into someone who rolls out his "eye witness evidence" of poor coaching during time outs, then in the very next post says his eye witnesses are just their to socialize and enjoy their nice seats.  Not sure what kind of evidence that really is...not something I'm going to pay a whole lot of attention to.  Sorry.

Quote from: Goose on November 22, 2016, 10:42:42 AM
MU82

I DO NOT THINK THE SEASON IS OVER AT ALL. That said, you do need to have a plan in case things do go south in a hurry. I am far from giving up on Wojo, but the leash I would have as his boss would be shorter today than a year ago. MU basketball can (can't) afford to have another year of losing loyal fans due to crap on the court IMO.

But drastic action is taken, how would that affect future coach candidates opinion of what they could expect if they replaced Wojo?

This thread is awesome. A clean look into the psyche of spoiled brats.

Even after 2 losses (neither of which was a bad loss), Pomeroy still ranks us ahead of where we started the season. MU is still projected to win more conference games than last year. MU is still in position to finish in the top half of the Big East — if we avoid bad losses like DePaul at home, and win just 1 game we're not supposed to.

I'm not saying all is sunshine and rainbows. There are clouds in the picture. It feels like it's been grey and raining forever. But the sky is clearer today than it was a month ago, or a year ago, or 2 years ago.

Quote from: Marcus92 on November 22, 2016, 10:55:27 AM
Even after 2 losses (neither of which was a bad loss), Pomeroy still ranks us ahead of where we started the season. MU is still projected to win more conference games than last year. MU is still in position to finish in the top half of the Big East — if we avoid bad losses like DePaul at home, and win just 1 game we're not supposed to.

I'm not saying all is sunshine and rainbows  Seashells and Balloons. There are clouds in the picture. It feels like it's been grey and raining forever. But the sky is clearer today than it was a month ago, or a year ago, or 2 years ago.

FIFY

Quote from: dgies9156 on November 22, 2016, 10:59:35 AMFIFY

Thanks. I love Al's "seashells and balloons" quote. But it didn't fit my weather metaphor for the state of the MU basketball program.

Coach K's record from first three seasons at Duke:

80-81:  17-13
81-82:  10-17
82-83:  11-17

Took off after that.

Atl MU

I don't do teal because I am old man. The eye witness evidence was more tongue in cheek. You might think I am old guy that knows nothing (you may be right), but I have been around the block with MU ball on fairly personal level my entire life and my comments/beliefs are seldom made by knee jerk reactions.

I recently met with a member of MU admin and offered my thoughts on the university and the basketball program. While many of my comments were negative, I noted time and time again that these negative comments were coming from someone who LOVES Marquette University. For 50 of my my 53 years on this planet I have had a family member working at MU or going to school at MU. I can assure you that nobody (tie with everyone else on here) wants to see MU succeed across the board than I do.

You and I had our debates regarding the direction I feared MU ball was going years ago and that was fine. You can dismiss all of my comments and no hard feelings.

Golden Avalanche

Spoiled brats or someone who would love to see MU be the best it can be all aspects?

Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on November 22, 2016, 08:39:20 AM
I just don't see Wojo as a motivator. I see him as a de-motivator.

He is good with recruiting, because he has a good sales pitch that appeals to families.

Is that what JJJ is telling you?

Quote from: Goose on November 22, 2016, 09:22:51 AM
It did not take me a long time to figure out that Wojo's TO huddles were not deep in substance. I remember early on hearing my wife and mother in law laughing about Wojo's huddle conversation with the team. They literally could not believe that every time the mic was in huddle he was screaming the same useless stuff.

IMO it is becoming painfully obvious why Wojo was AC for some years and not a HC. He came across as a safe hire and got the job. We will see over the next months if Wojo can hack it or not. In addition, we will learn if MU wants a big time ball program or not. A lot riding on the remainder of season.

If you are judging his coaching acumen based on his huddles on TV, that is garbage. The coaches know when they will be on that and say nothing of relative use. Watch any coach in those. They say nothing besides generic cliches.

If you hear things courtside, that's different.

Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on November 22, 2016, 08:41:07 AM

The evidence doesn't bear this out.

The results are the evidence.

Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on November 22, 2016, 11:13:52 AM
The results are the evidence.

No.

The results IMO are mostly due to incomplete roster construction and tactical weakness.  Not lack of motivation by the players.  I think the players always come to the games with great energy.  Motivation isn't the problem.

To be fair Goose also questions whether Aaron Rodgers is a hall of fame, let alone a first ballot HoF so yeah....

Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on November 22, 2016, 11:16:37 AM

No.

The results IMO are mostly due to incomplete roster construction and tactical weakness.  Not lack of motivation by the players.  I think the players always come to the games with great energy.  Motivation isn't the problem.

Of course the players come to the games with energy. They are college students and playing in big arenas. That motivation is going to be there regardless of who the coach is. I am talking about the motivation necessary to rally together as a cohesive unit through difficult times. It requires real leadership and motivational ability to achieve that. Wojo has none of that. The players see Wojo as a guy out solely for himself and not having their backs.  This latest incident with Sandy is further evidence of that. 

Quote from: Litehouse on November 22, 2016, 10:35:10 AM
Wojo is still learning and developing as a coach, which is OK. rollin I'm fine giving him a few more years to get things g.  However, we're paying him an awful lot for this on-the-job training.  We're clearly not getting our return on investment at this point.  Hopefully things turn around soon and we make it up in the next few years.

The trouble with this is while Wojo may improve as a coach his ability to recruit as he is learning is going down hill. His first year he was mentioned with a lot of high level recruits. This year he was barely considered by high level recruits and got one top 100 and two three stars. Losing hurts recruiting and by the time he learns to coach (in our opinion) he may not have the talent to do better than he is now. Now, I am not advocating firing Wojo, because unless you can show me we can hire a more successful coach, I see no reason to change. I never understood why MU had to go the assistant way, but established coaches seem not to want to come to MU. Therefore to fire Wojo to take another gamble on an assistant coach seems fool hearty to me. However, if the program totally falls apart with more transfers at year end, then I think we have no choice in the matter.

Incident?  You mean transferring due to lack of PT?  Which occurs across the country by the hundreds of players?

At this point in the Wojo Era, I've been impressed by his ability to recruit and his ability to motivate. What I still can't tell is whether or not the guy can actually coach and, most importantly, whether or not he and his staff can develop players.

Since Wojo took over, there really hasn't been a player who's shown significant improvement. Duane, Luke, JJJ - are any of those guys noticeably better than they were when Wojo arrived? Sure, JJJ occasionally plays more under control and Luke has developed a left hand but Duane is the same. Cohen regressed. Henry's shot selection still had ups and downs throughout his only season. So far, do Haanif or Traci look improved over last season? Obviously, a decent portion of that is on the players but there are a lot of coaches on this staff and not as much growth in the players as I'd like to see.

Quote from: bilsu on November 22, 2016, 11:29:19 AM
The trouble with this is while Wojo may improve as a coach his ability to recruit as he is learning is going down hill. His first year he was mentioned with a lot of high level recruits. This year he was barely considered by high level recruits and got one top 100 and two three stars. Losing hurts recruiting and by the time he learns to coach (in our opinion) he may not have the talent to do better than he is now. Now, I am not advocating firing Wojo, because unless you can show me we can hire a more successful coach, I see no reason to change. I never understood why MU had to go the assistant way, but established coaches seem not to want to come to MU. Therefore to fire Wojo to take another gamble on an assistant coach seems fool hearty to me. However, if the program totally falls apart with more transfers at year end, then I think we have no choice in the matter.

We have an incredible coaching option staring us in the face. Stan Johnson has the keys to all the recruits and the current players respect him.  Stan has what it takes to get us to the promised land.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 22, 2016, 11:31:43 AM
At this point in the Wojo Era, I've been impressed by his ability to recruit and his ability to motivate. What I still can't tell is whether or not the guy can actually coach and, most importantly, whether or not he and his staff can develop players.

Since Wojo took over, there really hasn't been a player who's shown significant improvement. Duane, Luke, JJJ - are any of those guys noticeably better than they were when Wojo arrived? Sure, JJJ occasionally plays more under control and Luke has developed a left hand but Duane is the same. Cohen regressed. Henry's shot selection still had ups and downs throughout his only season. So far, do Haanif or Traci look improved over last season? Obviously, a decent portion of that is on the players but there are a lot of coaches on this staff and not as much growth in the players as I'd like to see.

I do not think Cohen regressed. The talent around him got better, which made him look worse.

Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on November 22, 2016, 11:21:19 AM
Of course the players come to the games with energy. They are college students and playing in big arenas. That motivation is going to be there regardless of who the coach is. I am talking about the motivation necessary to rally together as a cohesive unit through difficult times. It requires real leadership and motivational ability to achieve that. Wojo has none of that. The players see Wojo as a guy out solely for himself and not having their backs.  This latest incident with Sandy is further evidence of that. 

I have noticed nothing of the sort and I don't think you have any clue what you are talking about because that is the furthest thing that I have heard to describe Wojo and his relationship with the players.

Quote from: Mug Rack on November 22, 2016, 11:04:45 AM
Coach K's record from first three seasons at Duke:

80-81:  17-13
81-82:  10-17
82-83:  11-17

Took off after that.

That '82-'83 Duke team had a freshman class of Jay Bilas, Mark Alaire, Johnny Dawkins and Dave Henderson. Next year Coach K brought in Tommy Amaker. The ACC was also the best basketball conference in the nation in those days, with UNC winning the title in 1982 and NC State in 1983. Maryland was coached by Lefty Driessel and had Len Bias playing in those days too.

Now, the current version of the Big East has the defending National Champions in Villanova, but it remains to be seen if Wojo's current sophomore class of Carter, Cheatam, Heldt and Anim, and the freshmen Hauser and Howard can match those two classes on Coach K's 82-83 and 83-84 teams, but I guess there's always an outside chance. Coach K also had 5 years a head coach in at Army where he was 73-59 prior to taking over at Duke.

MU03eng

Never said Rodgers was not HOF caliber player. Noted what a respected journalist stated. I did say he is far from high caliber winner.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 22, 2016, 08:46:10 AM

Any proof? Figured I'd ask for the 19th time.

Proof?  Tex/Gus has posted again and again that he personally knows what not only every current player is thinking and feeling, but what all potential recruits and their families are thinking and feeling.  What more proof do you need?

Quote from: Golden Avalanche on November 22, 2016, 10:55:12 AM
This thread is awesome. A clean look into the psyche of spoiled brats.

+1.  All this talk I've heard about "millennials" and all their issues, including coming from many here, and here we have mostly the older crowd whining and complaining because they aren't seeing the results they want in the way they want them.   ::)

Wade

If putting my retirement on hold and paying MU nearly 300k over the past five years makes me a spoiled brat I wear that hat with pride. Here's hoping that it costs you 600k to do the same for your kids.

Quote from: mu03eng on November 22, 2016, 11:17:14 AM
To be fair Goose also questions whether Aaron Rodgers is a hall of fame, let alone a first ballot HoF so yeah....

He's spot on there

Quote from: wadesworld on November 22, 2016, 11:47:50 AM
+1.  All this talk I've heard about "millennials" and all their issues, including coming from many here, and here we have mostly the older crowd whining and complaining because they aren't seeing the results they want in the way they want them.   ::)

That is what message boards and sports talk radio are for.

Mike and the Mad Dog was the most popular radio show in NY for years . People would call in and crap all over the Giants and Yankees even after they won Super Bowls and World Series.

Quote from: wadesworld on November 22, 2016, 11:47:50 AM
+1.  All this talk I've heard about "millennials" and all their issues, including coming from many here, and here we have mostly the older crowd whining and complaining because they aren't seeing the results they want in the way they want them.   ::)

I understand defending Wojo, the process or whatever based on how you see it.  IMO there is no need to go here and insult people that don't agree with you.  Just my opinion.

Quote from: Goose on November 22, 2016, 11:50:55 AM
Wade

If putting my retirement on hold and paying MU nearly 300k over the past five years makes me a spoiled brat I wear that hat with pride. Here's hoping that it costs you 600k to do the same for your kids.

Seriously, good for you.

If it's me doing that 20 years down the road for my kids, I certainly won't be sitting around bashing their generation for being spoiled and pampered while I'm the one doing the pampering, all while complaining that my favorite sports team is 2-2 four games into a thirty plus game season.

Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on November 22, 2016, 11:54:01 AM
I understand defending Wojo, the process or whatever based on how you see it.  IMO there is no need to go here and insult people that don't agree with you.  Just my opinion.

I just think it's funny, yet also incredibly annoying, to constantly hear "Gen X'ers" whine and moan and b!tch about "millennials" and paint them with a broad brush as being selfish brats, and then come here and see them acting like, well, whiny little brats four games into a season.  It's the definition of irony.

Not to mention, us "millennials" didn't come out of the womb asking for everything to be free and given to us with no work.  If the tough and rugged "Gen X'ers" wanted us raised differently...well, that's on them to have made that happen.

Quote from: wadesworld on November 22, 2016, 11:57:14 AM
Seriously, good for you.

If it's me doing that 20 years down the road for my kids, I certainly won't be sitting around bashing their generation for being spoiled and pampered while I'm the one doing the pampering, all while complaining that my favorite sports team is 2-2 four games into a thirty plus game season.

I just think it's funny, yet also incredibly annoying, to constantly hear "Gen X'ers" whine and moan and b!tch about "millennials" and paint them with a broad brush as being selfish brats, and then come here and see them acting like, well, whiny little brats four games into a season.  It's the definition of irony.

Not to mention, us "millennials" didn't come out of the womb asking for everything to be free and given to us with no work.  If the tough and rugged "Gen X'ers" wanted us raised differently...well, that's on them to have made that happen.

Didn't boomers raise millenials, not Gen X?

Quote from: LAZER on November 22, 2016, 12:00:42 PM
Didn't boomers raise millenials, not Gen X?

The vast majority, yes.

Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on November 22, 2016, 11:21:19 AM
Of course the players come to the games with energy. They are college students and playing in big arenas. That motivation is going to be there regardless of who the coach is. I am talking about the motivation necessary to rally together as a cohesive unit through difficult times. It requires real leadership and motivational ability to achieve that. Wojo has none of that. The players see Wojo as a guy out solely for himself and not having their backs.  This latest incident with Sandy is further evidence of that.

Ok you've really gotta stop. Just stop. You have no idea what you're talking about and trot out these absurd narratives as truth when they're not.
The players love Wojo and the whole team loves playing for him and the assistant coaches.  Someone with everyday, first-hand knowledge for his entire tenure has said as much.  The problem, IMO and what has been stated over and over, is that what he brings with motivation and passion he lacks in technical skill.  That and we just didn't have the horses his first year.  And while having a young staff of former players plays well with recruits (would just MAYBE explain how we've recruited so well under Wojo), not having a great X's and O's coach anywhere on the staff has proven to be a real issue.

Now, when Buzz left I was 1000% in on Gregg Marshall, and there were serious rumblings about Marquette absolutely being a job he'd leave WSU for, even with Baker and Van Vleet in the midst of their time there.  He would have been an improvement over Buzz and I'd argue we'd have been much further ahead right now with him.  I didn't love the Wojo hire, but we all understood why he got the gig.  While I think 2-2 is way too early to make any definitive statements on 16-17, Keefe and others are totally right the trends are troubling.  And it makes it even harder when a "true" 4 in Kyle Washington is killing it at Cincy thus far.  Our lack of size leaves the margin for error so slim with this team and I'm not confident we're gonna be able to play enough flawless ball to compensate.  We need to find an identity and quick because Wojo not knowing who his PG is game-by-game, how we defend the low post with no size, etc. is not doing us any favors.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 22, 2016, 10:32:56 AM
Would not mind wojo finding his Jerry Wainwright.

I'll never understand why Jerry wasn't retained.  Jerry wasn't a Buzz lifer.  This wasn't Louis Orr or TC's HS coach.  Jerry seemed to have run clean programs at Richmond and DePaul.  He could have been a nice balance to the Noon Ball Crew.

Wade

You might not find a bigger supporter of the millennial generation than me. Day in and day out I stress in the business world the importance of the young talent out there. I have passed on much of my daily work to my oldest son because he brings skills and value that I do not possess.

Not sure where I bashed or even questioned the younger generation. Again, I am now betting retirement on the millennial generation. In the future, please read my posts before throwing stones.

Quote from: LAZER on November 22, 2016, 12:00:42 PM
Didn't boomers raise millenials, not Gen X?

millennials don't care who raised them.  Clearly their problems are someone else's fault.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 20, 2016, 04:27:24 PM
Agreed. But declaring our team not competitive four games into the season due to one blow out loss to a good team is.

It is not one game it is how we play against teams in the top 100. Cupcake games are a waste of time unless those games are used as a training exercise. They are meaningless wins. Against some competition we are 1-2.

We can usually shoot 3's, we can drive provided the defense is weak and we can play inside if the team is short. After that we have real trouble. That is, no kickout passes when a drive is stopped, no inside shots made if there is a power forward, poor shot selection, no game plan, too much one-on-one, poor passing and poor D. These weaknesses have been nagging problems for each season Wojo has been here. Does anyone see progress on any basic skills? If we had beaten Pitt the comments above would have still been valid. If we had lost to Pitt but played as a solid team that shows progress I would feel differently.

Quote from: The Lens on November 22, 2016, 12:03:40 PM
I'll never understand why Jerry wasn't retained.  Jerry wasn't a Buzz lifer.  This wasn't Louis Orr or TC's HS coach.  Jerry seemed to have run clean programs at Richmond and DePaul.  He could have been a nice balance to the Noon Ball Crew.

Jerry also had a connection to Wojo as he recruited Wojo when he was an assistant at Wake Forest.  They had good words for each other at the BB Awards event shortly after Wojo was hired.

Quote from: onepostwarrior on November 22, 2016, 12:02:10 PM
Ok you've really gotta stop. Just stop. You have no idea what you're talking about and trot out these absurd narratives as truth when they're not.
The players love Wojo and the whole team loves playing for him and the assistant coaches.  Someone with everyday, first-hand knowledge for his entire tenure has said as much.  The problem, IMO and what has been stated over and over, is that what he brings with motivation and passion he lacks in technical skill.  That and we just didn't have the horses his first year.  And while having a young staff of former players plays well with recruits (would just MAYBE explain how we've recruited so well under Wojo), not having a great X's and O's coach anywhere on the staff has proven to be a real issue.

Now, when Buzz left I was 1000% in on Gregg Marshall, and there were serious rumblings about Marquette absolutely being a job he'd leave WSU for, even with Baker and Van Vleet in the midst of their time there.  He would have been an improvement over Buzz and I'd argue we'd have been much further ahead right now with him.  I didn't love the Wojo hire, but we all understood why he got the gig.  While I think 2-2 is way too early to make any definitive statements on 16-17, Keefe and others are totally right the trends are troubling.  And it makes it even harder when a "true" 4 in Kyle Washington is killing it at Cincy thus far.  Our lack of size leaves the margin for error so slim with this team and I'm not confident we're gonna be able to play enough flawless ball to compensate.  We need to find an identity and quick because Wojo not knowing who his PG is game-by-game, how we defend the low post with no size, etc. is not doing us any favors.

You are seeing things through rose colored glasses. The players do not love Wojo and the whole team does not like playing for him.   Unfortunately we are stuck with this guy for another three years. So get used to mediocrity as that is what we will be seeing. This years team will have some nice moments against the cupcakes and be fun to watch at times, but they have no real chance in conference play, and the attitude of the team and coaches will decay as the losses mount. The blame lies solely on Wojo. He has been given a fantastic opportunity and blown it.

Quote from: Goose on November 22, 2016, 12:06:05 PM
Wade

You might not find a bigger supporter of the millennial generation than me. Day in and day out I stress in the business world the importance of the young talent out there. I have passed on much of my daily work to my oldest son because he brings skills and value that I do not possess.

Not sure where I bashed or even questioned the younger generation. Again, I am now betting retirement on the millennial generation. In the future, please read my posts before throwing stones.

Again, that is great for you and as a millennial (who doesn't consider himself selfish or expecting to be given anything), I thank you, seriously.  I didn't direct my post about millennials at you or anyone in particular at all.  You're the one who responded to it.

Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on November 22, 2016, 12:09:18 PM
You are seeing things through rose colored glasses. The players do not love Wojo and the whole team does not like playing for him.   Unfortunately we are stuck with this guy for another three years. So get used to mediocrity as that is what we will be seeing. This years team will have some nice moments against the cupcakes and be fun to watch at times, but they have no real chance in conference play, and the attitude of the team and coaches will decay as the losses mount. The blame lies solely on Wojo. He has been given a fantastic opportunity and blown it.

Lol.

Wade

It was directed at you because it was stated by you with my post enclosed. Also, I would like to point out the MU ball is not my favorite team. MU as whole has a special spot in my heart and what I am as a man, husband and father. I want what is best for MU and this old idiot believes great MU ball= overall MU success.

From day one I have said if MU can be a great place with mid level basketball I am fine with that. Just don't spend first class dough to be middle of the pack. If they have the money to do so I would recommend focusing funds on the best faculty and research over blowing a ton on basketball.

String together a couple of wins, kick Bucky's A$$, and all of this will be forgotten.

I have not done a lot of posting since Buzz left (partly because I left Milwaukee, but also because I was a huge Buzz fan) but here are a few thoughts.

1. I think the entire board can agree that making the NCAA tournament is the bar for a program in full rebuild mode. However I think we need to allow a coach 5 years to do so. As much as i loved Buzz, the "cupboard" was empty.

2. By the time Wojo was hired there was very little time for him to build his first recruiting class. And, now that Sandy has decided to transfer, his first recruiting class is non-existent.

3. Considering point 2, this technically only Wojo's 2nd full year. His style of player (i.e Haanif) is only a sophomore at best. All of our older players are either grad transfers, or Buzz's recruits that Don't really fit Wojo's system.

4. If your trying to re-build a program you need to pick a system and stick with it. Not saying I agree with the Man to Man defensive approach. However, if you switch to zone every season, players will never lean the system. Things may look bad now, but by the time Wojo's recruits are upperclassmen the hope is they understand their responsibilities and can execute (this is at least the idea on paper, we will see if it translates to real life)

5. Final point - We at least owe it to Wojo and the administration to allow a coach 5 years to rebuild a program. Let his recruits become seniors and then we will see what happens.

Quote from: LAZER on November 22, 2016, 12:00:42 PM
Didn't boomers raise millenials, not Gen X?

^This.  Wades, you have your Gens mixed up.  As a GenXer, my kids are actually Gen Z, and while I obviously can't speak for anyone but myself much less all GenXers, my observation is that it generally isn't us GenXers doing the Gen Y bashing.

Quote from: wadesworld on November 22, 2016, 11:57:14 AM
  If the tough and rugged "Gen X'ers" wanted us raised differently...well, that's on them to have made that happen.

Yeah, its the Boomers who like to be described as tough and rugged.  Us GenXers are generally independent/lone wolf types if you have to ascribe an archetype, though most often we're just ignored due to being so numerically outnumbered by both Boomers and Gen Y

Quote from: TSmith34 on November 22, 2016, 12:31:07 PM
Yeah, its the Boomers who like to be described as tough and rugged.  Us GenXers are generally independent/lone wolf types if you have to ascribe an archetype, though most often we're just ignored due to being so numerically outnumbered by both Boomers and Gen Y

Gotcha.  Thanks for the correction and sorry I got it wrong.  To be honest I've never paid attention to the different generation types until all I've heard since the end of the election is the complaints about millennials not being able to accept things that don't go their way.  It's been annoying, especially since people from all generations have been complaining, and celebrating, the results.

I have no idea what generation I am part of, nor do I care. I do know I was raised by parents (Dad would be 96 and Mom would be 92) that could not afford college but sent four kids to MU. Their love of higher education and Marquette basketball taught me more about life than any class I ever took. They taught me value of education, value of a dollar and that job performance is graded everyday of the year.

Probably the most important lesson they taught me was not to bunch people together. Everyone is an individual and should by viewed and respected as an individual.

I wish Wojo and the Warriors success and will leave the debate to those of you much smarter than I am.

Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on November 22, 2016, 12:09:18 PM
You are seeing things through rose colored glasses. The players do not love Wojo and the whole team does not like playing for him.   Unfortunately we are stuck with this guy for another three years. So get used to mediocrity as that is what we will be seeing. This years team will have some nice moments against the cupcakes and be fun to watch at times, but they have no real chance in conference play, and the attitude of the team and coaches will decay as the losses mount. The blame lies solely on Wojo. He has been given a fantastic opportunity and blown it.

You should probably just stick to JJJscoop and Daytonscoop at this point.

Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on November 22, 2016, 11:32:28 AM
We have an incredible coaching option staring us in the face. Stan Johnson has the keys to all the recruits and the current players respect him.  Stan has what it takes to get us to the promised land.

Cause Stan is a proven HC who won't have to learn on the job?

Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on November 22, 2016, 12:24:41 PM
I have not done a lot of posting since Buzz left (partly because I left Milwaukee, but also because I was a huge Buzz fan) but here are a few thoughts.

1. I think the entire board .......

2. By the time Wojo wa.....

3. Considering point 2, this te......

4. If your trying to re-build a prog......

5. Final point - W....

Completely logical and in line with the 'rational' side of my brain.  The irrational side is super frustrated.  Fortunately, as a Gen X'er i'm old enough to have had practice shutting out my irrational side.  Speaking of Gen X

Quote from: TSmith34 on November 22, 2016, 12:31:07 PM
Yeah, its the Boomers who like to be described as tough and rugged.  Us GenXers are generally independent/lone wolf types if you have to ascribe an archetype, though most often we're just ignored due to being so numerically outnumbered by both Boomers and Gen Y

How dare you not use the word 'slacker' when describing our generation!

Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on November 22, 2016, 12:09:18 PM
You are seeing things through rose colored glasses. The players do not love Wojo and the whole team does not like playing for him.

I don't know why I'm trying to reason with someone so slow, but again, I personally am not seeing anything.  I'm passing along first-person accounts from someone at every practice and game since Wojo took over.  God, you are the absolute worst.

Quote from: The Lens on November 22, 2016, 12:03:40 PM
I'll never understand why Jerry wasn't retained.  Jerry wasn't a Buzz lifer.  This wasn't Louis Orr or TC's HS coach.  Jerry seemed to have run clean programs at Richmond and DePaul.  He could have been a nice balance to the Noon Ball Crew.

My understanding is that Jerry was there for Buzz. Not sure how much interest he had in staying.

Quote from: naginiF on November 22, 2016, 01:02:34 PM
Completely logical and in line with the 'rational' side of my brain.  The irrational side is super frustrated.  Fortunately, as a Gen X'er i'm old enough to have had practice shutting out my irrational side.  Speaking of Gen XHow dare you not use the word 'slacker' when describing our generation!

I think you mean 'non-optimal performer'.  I blame Scoop for lowing my productivity!

Attached is graphic we use on the different generations in terms of implications on an organization's workforce.

Quote from: onepostwarrior on November 22, 2016, 12:02:10 PM
Now, when Buzz left I was 1000% in on Gregg Marshall, and there were serious rumblings about Marquette absolutely being a job he'd leave WSU for, even with Baker and Van Vleet in the midst of their time there.  He would have been an improvement over Buzz and I'd argue we'd have been much further ahead right now with him.

Marshall wasn't an option for us. Doesn't pass the sniff test from what I've heard. Him staying at Wichita State isn't 100% because he likes the view of the cornfields from his apartment.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 22, 2016, 01:22:50 PM
My understanding is that Jerry was there for Buzz. Not sure how much interest he had in staying.

Maybe we can ask him when Fresno State comes to town in a few weeks.

Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on November 22, 2016, 11:32:28 AM
We have an incredible coaching option staring us in the face. Stan Johnson has the keys to all the recruits and the current players respect him.  Stan has what it takes to get us to the promised land.

What coaching experience does Stan have?

Serious Q as I don't recall any.

Quote from: Goose on November 22, 2016, 12:06:05 PM
throwing stones.

Great song.

The future's here. We are it. We are on our own

Quote from: Waldo Jeffers on November 22, 2016, 02:00:23 PM
What coaching experience does Stan have?

Serious Q as I don't recall any.

No head coaching experience.

Hiring an assistant just so the recruits don't leave often leads to Josh Pastner-like problems.  You hire the best coach possible regardless of the short term consequences.  Could that be Stan?  Sure. 

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 22, 2016, 10:47:52 AM
I agree we can't afford to lose more fans. Which is why firing Wojo  and nuking the program would be a terrible idea. I'm sure you've seen plenty of coaching transitions in your day. Do you really think there's a coach out there who could take over without seeing back the rebuild by at least a few years?

Thanks, TAMU, for playing defense for me while I've not been at my computer much.

I stand by everything I've written. I tend to be pragmatic and reasonable and, yes, optimistic. I don't do all-or-nothing very well, and I usually don't care for those who see things in that light or who state opinion as fact. And I certainly don't respect those who claim to be insiders when we know damn well they aren't.

Wojo has done some things really well. He needs to get better at some others. That's quite a news flash.

I like the poster (I already can't remember who - sorry) who said that Thurl Bailey has entrusted his son to Wojo. So have the Hausers.

Granted, Thurl might not know as much about basketball or about what makes a good coach as, say, a handful of anonymous dudes on the interwebs, but I'm willing to defer to him for at least a little bit.

As for questions why Wojo was an AC for double-digit years if he were head-coaching material, I don't know ... better ask Roy Williams the same question.

Having said all of that, I do understand some of our fan base is impatient and frustrated. I think the next year or so will go a long way toward determining if Wojo can be a success. Can he improve upon previous results in this, his third Big East season, one in which he has several good upperclassmen and a young nucleus of his own recruits? Can he follow it up by signing another big (or two) this spring and then a couple of studs next fall?

A year from now, we'll know so much more about the direction of our program under Wojo. If I really believe we're spinning our wheels (or, even worse, going backward), I will begrudgingly say so. Begrudgingly, because I'm rooting for Wojo to be a huge success.

I simply don't know how one can look at Wojo's body of work so far -- a losing season with an empty cupboard; a 20-win season with a few big wins that ultimately fell short of being "good"; a 2-2 record about an eighth of the way through Year 3; a few very good recruits and some good ones -- and conclude already that he is a failure.

I don't see Wojo shaking up his coaching staff at this point. Certainly not midseason. If he did bring on someone new, there are a number of experienced coaches not named Jerry Wainwright who might be interested:

Brian Gregory
49 years old. 248-180 (.579) head coaching record at Dayton and Georgia Tech. Former assistant to Tom Izzo at Michigan State.

Ray McCallum
55 years old. 300-281 (.516) head coaching record at Detroit, Houston and Ball State. Former assistant at Wisconsin, Michigan and Oklahoma.


Bruiser Flint
51 years old. 331-289 (.534) head coaching record at Drexel and UMass. Former assistant to John Calipari at UMass and Coppin State.

Jim Crews
62 years old. 431-404 (.516) head coaching record at St. Louis, Army and Evansville. Former assistant to Bob Knight at Indiana.

Rob Jeter
47 years old. 184-170 (.520) head coaching record at UW-Milwaukee. Former assist to Wisconsin and Marquette.

MU82, great post. Couldn't have said it better.

Quote from: Marcus92 on November 22, 2016, 02:27:37 PM
MU82, great post. Couldn't have said it better.

Yup.  Some posters are just bandwagon people.  Let things play out folks.

Quote from: MU82 on November 22, 2016, 02:17:53 PM

As for questions why Wojo was an AC for double-digit years if he were head-coaching material, I don't know ... better ask Roy Williams the same question.

Or Tom Crean...or Buzz Williams...or Tom Izzo...or Sean Miller.... etc. etc. etc.

Quote from: Marcus92 on November 22, 2016, 02:25:09 PM
I don't see Wojo shaking up his coaching staff at this point. Certainly not midseason. If he did bring on someone new, there are a number of experienced coaches not named Jerry Wainwright who might be interested:

Brian Gregory
49 years old. 248-180 (.579) head coaching record at Dayton and Georgia Tech. Former assistant to Tom Izzo at Michigan State.

Ray McCallum
55 years old. 300-281 (.516) head coaching record at Detroit, Houston and Ball State. Former assistant at Wisconsin, Michigan and Oklahoma.


Bruiser Flint
51 years old. 331-289 (.534) head coaching record at Drexel and UMass. Former assistant to John Calipari at UMass and Coppin State.

Jim Crews
62 years old. 431-404 (.516) head coaching record at St. Louis, Army and Evansville. Former assistant to Bob Knight at Indiana.

Rob Jeter
47 years old. 184-170 (.520) head coaching record at UW-Milwaukee. Former assist to Wisconsin and Marquette.

Jeter is at UNLV, but still an interesting list.

Quote from: MU82 on November 22, 2016, 02:17:53 PM
Wojo has done some things really well. He needs to get better at some others. That's quite a news flash.

MU82, can you elaborate on what things you think Wojo has done really well?

I will admit that I was not wild about his hiring at all. I even posted a blurb on MUSCOOP when he was hired that my friends and I were having some drinks a couple nights before and we all joked about MU hiring Wojo - and the Duke guys laughed the loudest.

Regardless, what is it you think he has done really well thus far? Recruiting? Outreach to the Marquette and Milwaukee community? Getting seats filled at the Bradley Center? Good interviews with the media? What exactly?

I ask as one who does not live in the Milwaukee area and only gets to about 2-3 games a year, usually when MU visits the East Coast.

McCallum and Flint were hardly tacticians.  They were recruiters and that's about it.

Crews on the other hand...

Quote from: MU82 on November 22, 2016, 02:17:53 PM
Thanks, TAMU, for playing defense for me while I've not been at my computer much.

I stand by everything I've written. I tend to be pragmatic and reasonable and, yes, optimistic. I don't do all-or-nothing very well, and I usually don't care for those who see things in that light or who state opinion as fact. And I certainly don't respect those who claim to be insiders when we know damn well they aren't.

Wojo has done some things really well. He needs to get better at some others. That's quite a news flash.

I like the poster (I already can't remember who - sorry) who said that Thurl Bailey has entrusted his son to Wojo. So have the Hausers.

Granted, Thurl might not know as much about basketball or about what makes a good coach as, say, a handful of anonymous dudes on the interwebs, but I'm willing to defer to him for at least a little bit.

As for questions why Wojo was an AC for double-digit years if he were head-coaching material, I don't know ... better ask Roy Williams the same question.

Having said all of that, I do understand some of our fan base is impatient and frustrated. I think the next year or so will go a long way toward determining if Wojo can be a success. Can he improve upon previous results in this, his third Big East season, one in which he has several good upperclassmen and a young nucleus of his own recruits? Can he follow it up by signing another big (or two) this spring and then a couple of studs next fall?

A year from now, we'll know so much more about the direction of our program under Wojo. If I really believe we're spinning our wheels (or, even worse, going backward), I will begrudgingly say so. Begrudgingly, because I'm rooting for Wojo to be a huge success.

I simply don't know how one can look at Wojo's body of work so far -- a losing season with an empty cupboard; a 20-win season with a few big wins that ultimately fell short of being "good"; a 2-2 record about an eighth of the way through Year 3; a few very good recruits and some good ones -- and conclude already that he is a failure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWtUVDG5M1w

Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on November 22, 2016, 11:54:47 AM
Bailey is an excellent player. His father was Thurl Bailey who played in the NBA and on the national champion NC State team with Valvano. Stan recruited him for us. He is on a mission for his church doing good things.

Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on November 22, 2016, 02:55:34 PM
McCallum and Flint were hardly tacticians.  They were recruiters and that's about it.

Crews on the other hand...

Wonder if there's an Army/IU/Knight/Coach K connection with Crews?

Quote from: Marcus92 on November 22, 2016, 02:25:09 PM
I don't see Wojo shaking up his coaching staff at this point. Certainly not midseason. If he did bring on someone new, there are a number of experienced coaches not named Jerry Wainwright who might be interested:

Brian Gregory
49 years old. 248-180 (.579) head coaching record at Dayton and Georgia Tech. Former assistant to Tom Izzo at Michigan State.

Ray McCallum
55 years old. 300-281 (.516) head coaching record at Detroit, Houston and Ball State. Former assistant at Wisconsin, Michigan and Oklahoma.


Bruiser Flint
51 years old. 331-289 (.534) head coaching record at Drexel and UMass. Former assistant to John Calipari at UMass and Coppin State.

Jim Crews
62 years old. 431-404 (.516) head coaching record at St. Louis, Army and Evansville. Former assistant to Bob Knight at Indiana.

Rob Jeter
47 years old. 184-170 (.520) head coaching record at UW-Milwaukee. Former assist to Wisconsin and Marquette.

ABD?

Norm, your question got me thinking. I think most of the pro wojo folks would agree that what keeps us optimistic is steady improvement across the program.

Year 1 was the starting point. We managed 13 wins with a cobbled together roster.

Year 2 we saw a better product despite a ton of youth. We managed 20 wins and were a few buckets away from dancing (wins over depaul and Belmont likely would of done it). Not only that but I think most would agree that the team from the end of that season that beat Providence would have whooped the team that lost to Belmont.

You wouldn't know it from the attitude here, but year 3 is off to a better start than year 2. Compare the first four games:

Year 2: home loss to Belmont, OT win at home vs IUPUI, 28 point beating by Iowa at home, 1 point win over LSU on neutral court.
Year 3: 24 point beatdown of Vandy on neutral court, 32 point win over Howard, 18 point beating by Michigan on neutral court, and three point loss to Pitt on a neutral court.

I'm pretty sure everyone would take the start of year 3 over the start of year 2. I also believe that year 3 would wipe the floor with year two if they somehow had the ability to scrimmage.

So the steady improvement is what keeps me optimistic. Has there been enough improvement by this point? Debatable. By as long as we're trending up, I'm happy. Next year will be very telling as we will likely only have one buzz recruit left.

But then again, my phone did autocorrect "pro wojo folks" to "pro wojo fools" so maybe that's a sign.

Quote from: MU82 on November 22, 2016, 02:17:53 PM
Thanks, TAMU, for playing defense for me while I've not been at my computer much.

I stand by everything I've written. I tend to be pragmatic and reasonable and, yes, optimistic. I don't do all-or-nothing very well, and I usually don't care for those who see things in that light or who state opinion as fact. And I certainly don't respect those who claim to be insiders when we know damn well they aren't.

Wojo has done some things really well. He needs to get better at some others. That's quite a news flash.

I like the poster (I already can't remember who - sorry) who said that Thurl Bailey has entrusted his son to Wojo. So have the Hausers.

Granted, Thurl might not know as much about basketball or about what makes a good coach as, say, a handful of anonymous dudes on the interwebs, but I'm willing to defer to him for at least a little bit.

As for questions why Wojo was an AC for double-digit years if he were head-coaching material, I don't know ... better ask Roy Williams the same question.

Having said all of that, I do understand some of our fan base is impatient and frustrated. I think the next year or so will go a long way toward determining if Wojo can be a success. Can he improve upon previous results in this, his third Big East season, one in which he has several good upperclassmen and a young nucleus of his own recruits? Can he follow it up by signing another big (or two) this spring and then a couple of studs next fall?

A year from now, we'll know so much more about the direction of our program under Wojo. If I really believe we're spinning our wheels (or, even worse, going backward), I will begrudgingly say so. Begrudgingly, because I'm rooting for Wojo to be a huge success.

I simply don't know how one can look at Wojo's body of work so far -- a losing season with an empty cupboard; a 20-win season with a few big wins that ultimately fell short of being "good"; a 2-2 record about an eighth of the way through Year 3; a few very good recruits and some good ones -- and conclude already that he is a failure.

I do think we need to draw a distinction between those, like myself that are on the "concerned" list versus those that are out and out giving up on the Wojo era. I'm all for Wojo staying and don't want to start over again. I like Wojo a lot, but I'm very concerned at the trend lines around player deployment and in-game coaching. Those are core competencies that we need any head coach (and/or staff) to have, if Wojo doesn't....and we can't conclude that yet....I don't care about the other stuff, I don't want a coach who can't adjust and/or develop players.

So basically, I'm going to be watching closely this season to see how Wojo does on those metrics and if he doesn't pass the test I'm going to likely move to the darker camp.

It's like I got a super awesome pastrami sandwich but I'm not totally confident that the pastrami is free of listeria. (best analogy I could come up with).

Quote from: mu03eng on November 22, 2016, 03:19:49 PM
I do think we need to draw a distinction between those, like myself that are on the "concerned" list versus those that are out and out giving up on the Wojo era. I'm all for Wojo staying and don't want to start over again. I like Wojo a lot, but I'm very concerned at the trend lines around player deployment and in-game coaching. Those are core competencies that we need any head coach (and/or staff) to have, if Wojo doesn't....and we can't conclude that yet....I don't care about the other stuff, I don't want a coach who can't adjust and/or develop players.

So basically, I'm going to be watching closely this season to see how Wojo does on those metrics and if he doesn't pass the test I'm going to likely move to the darker camp.

I think this is more "pragmatic and reasonable" than Mike's view. But perhaps that makes me unreasonable.

Quote from: mu03eng on November 22, 2016, 03:19:49 PM

It's like I got a super awesome pastrami sandwich but I'm not totally confident that the pastrami is free of listeria. (best analogy I could come up with).

This is excellent.

Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on November 22, 2016, 12:24:41 PM
I have not done a lot of posting since Buzz left (partly because I left Milwaukee, but also because I was a huge Buzz fan) but here are a few thoughts.

1. I think the entire board can agree that making the NCAA tournament is the bar for a program in full rebuild mode. However I think we need to allow a coach 5 years to do so. As much as i loved Buzz, the "cupboard" was empty.

2. By the time Wojo was hired there was very little time for him to build his first recruiting class. And, now that Sandy has decided to transfer, his first recruiting class is non-existent.

3. Considering point 2, this technically only Wojo's 2nd full year. His style of player (i.e Haanif) is only a sophomore at best. All of our older players are either grad transfers, or Buzz's recruits that Don't really fit Wojo's system.

4. If your trying to re-build a program you need to pick a system and stick with it. Not saying I agree with the Man to Man defensive approach. However, if you switch to zone every season, players will never lean the system. Things may look bad now, but by the time Wojo's recruits are upperclassmen the hope is they understand their responsibilities and can execute (this is at least the idea on paper, we will see if it translates to real life)

5. Final point - We at least owe it to Wojo and the administration to allow a coach 5 years to rebuild a program. Let his recruits become seniors and then we will see what happens.

I generally agree with this and I like the hi IQ players Wojo is recruiting. However, the problem I have with this five year plan is I just cannot see year 4 being better than year 3. Of course it can be, but I just do not see how we effectively replace Fischer.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 22, 2016, 03:15:21 PM
Norm, your question got me thinking. I think most of the pro wojo folks would agree that what keeps us optimistic is steady improvement across the program.

Year 1 was the starting point. We managed 13 wins with a cobbled together roster.

Year 2 we saw a better product despite a ton of youth. We managed 20 wins and were a few buckets away from dancing (wins over depaul and Belmont likely would of done it). Not only that but I think most would agree that the team from the end of that season that beat Providence would have whooped the team that lost to Belmont.

You wouldn't know it from the attitude here, but year 3 is off to a better start than year 2. Compare the first four games:

Year 2: home loss to Belmont, OT win at home vs IUPUI, 28 point beating by Iowa at home, 1 point win over LSU on neutral court.
Year 3: 24 point beatdown of Vandy on neutral court, 32 point win over Howard, 18 point beating by Michigan on neutral court, and three point loss to Pitt on a neutral court.

I'm pretty sure everyone would take the start of year 3 over the start of year 2. I also believe that year 3 would wipe the floor with year two if they somehow had the ability to scrimmage.

So the steady improvement is what keeps me optimistic. Has there been enough improvement by this point? Debatable. By as long as we're trending up, I'm happy. Next year will be very telling as we will likely only have one buzz recruit left.

But then again, my phone did autocorrect "pro wojo folks" to "pro wojo fools" so maybe that's a sign.

Thanks TAMU.

I agree they improved record wise from Year 1 to Year 2, but their non-conference schedule was so bad last year and so full of terrible cupcakes it was bound to get better.

I was at the Vanderbilt win at the Veterans Classic, and they did look good there, although that first half by Reinhardt was absolutely brutal. Unfortunately, he's had more half like that than his second half of that game. But as good as they looked against Vandy, they were as bad against Michigan and choked in the 2nd half against Pitt. Hopefully they beat IUPUI tonight in a comfortable fashion and do not have to resort to OT - or worse, actually lose the game.

I think I would buy in to the improving trend this year if they actually improve their record against the top half of the Big East. In the two years Wojo has been at MU, the teams record against the Big East is:

Butler 1-3
Creighton 2-2
DePaul 2-2
Georgetown 1-3
Providence 3-1
Seton Hall 2-3
St. John's 3-2
Villanova 0-5
Xavier 0-5

I do not expect Marquette to beat Villanova this year (in fact, MU is 0-7 against them in the New Big East), but if they can split against Xavier and finish at least 9-9 in conference, I'll agree they are improving. I just fear that the roster does not match up well this year against Xavier, Seton Hall, Butler and Creighton. All that coudl combine for another bottom half finish. Again, I would love to be wrong about that and see MU finish in the top half.

Outside of the overall record, how is Wojo doing reaching out to the MU and Milwaukee community? Does he have a good reputation around town, or is he pretty invisible except for game days? Does he try to get the students involved? In short, how is he as an ambassador for MU?

Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on November 22, 2016, 02:56:03 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWtUVDG5M1w

My god. No. It wasn't you.

Quote from: wadesworld on November 22, 2016, 10:15:59 AM
The fact that Thurl Bailey, a college great and a guy who played 10 years in the NBA and averaged 12 points and 5 rebounds per game, is trusting Wojo to coach his son tells me that people who understand the game a lot better than anybody on MUScoop does trust that Wojo is a good enough coach to put his son's playing career in his hands.  Not to mention Sam Hauser, whose dad coaches and who clearly has been coached well up to this point.  If Bailey decommits, Sam transfers, and Joey Hauser immediately eliminates us from consideration, I'll be concerned about Wojo's ability to coach kids.

Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on November 22, 2016, 12:24:41 PM
I have not done a lot of posting since Buzz left (partly because I left Milwaukee, but also because I was a huge Buzz fan) but here are a few thoughts.

1. I think the entire board can agree that making the NCAA tournament is the bar for a program in full rebuild mode. However I think we need to allow a coach 5 years to do so. As much as i loved Buzz, the "cupboard" was empty.

2. By the time Wojo was hired there was very little time for him to build his first recruiting class. And, now that Sandy has decided to transfer, his first recruiting class is non-existent.

3. Considering point 2, this technically only Wojo's 2nd full year. His style of player (i.e Haanif) is only a sophomore at best. All of our older players are either grad transfers, or Buzz's recruits that Don't really fit Wojo's system.

4. If your trying to re-build a program you need to pick a system and stick with it. Not saying I agree with the Man to Man defensive approach. However, if you switch to zone every season, players will never lean the system. Things may look bad now, but by the time Wojo's recruits are upperclassmen the hope is they understand their responsibilities and can execute (this is at least the idea on paper, we will see if it translates to real life)

5. Final point - We at least owe it to Wojo and the administration to allow a coach 5 years to rebuild a program. Let his recruits become seniors and then we will see what happens.

So, you're Chicos too, hey?

Wojo's a genius.   Build a statue.    (There, how is that for hair trigger, short term idiocy?)

Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 22, 2016, 08:32:06 PM


So, you're Chicos too, hey?

I wouldn't go that far haha! Trust after the trip to NYC i felt like we were going to be the next DePaul, and we still could be if wojo doesn't get his sh*t together. But i think it takes a few years to build a tournament team, especially when you have to start from scratch and have a different style compared to the previous coach.

Quote from: Norm on November 22, 2016, 04:30:53 PM
Thanks TAMU.

I agree they improved record wise from Year 1 to Year 2, but their non-conference schedule was so bad last year and so full of terrible cupcakes it was bound to get better.

I was at the Vanderbilt win at the Veterans Classic, and they did look good there, although that first half by Reinhardt was absolutely brutal. Unfortunately, he's had more half like that than his second half of that game. But as good as they looked against Vandy, they were as bad against Michigan and choked in the 2nd half against Pitt. Hopefully they beat IUPUI tonight in a comfortable fashion and do not have to resort to OT - or worse, actually lose the game.

I think I would buy in to the improving trend this year if they actually improve their record against the top half of the Big East. In the two years Wojo has been at MU, the teams record against the Big East is:

Butler 1-3
Creighton 2-2
DePaul 2-2
Georgetown 1-3
Providence 3-1
Seton Hall 2-3
St. John's 3-2
Villanova 0-5
Xavier 0-5

I do not expect Marquette to beat Villanova this year (in fact, MU is 0-7 against them in the New Big East), but if they can split against Xavier and finish at least 9-9 in conference, I'll agree they are improving. I just fear that the roster does not match up well this year against Xavier, Seton Hall, Butler and Creighton. All that coudl combine for another bottom half finish. Again, I would love to be wrong about that and see MU finish in the top half.

Outside of the overall record, how is Wojo doing reaching out to the MU and Milwaukee community? Does he have a good reputation around town, or is he pretty invisible except for game days? Does he try to get the students involved? In short, how is he as an ambassador for MU?

Fear makes you dumb. Don't give into the fear just enjoy basketball

Quote from: Goose on November 22, 2016, 11:08:35 AM
Atl MU

I don't do teal because I am old man. The eye witness evidence was more tongue in cheek. You might think I am old guy that knows nothing (you may be right), but I have been around the block with MU ball on fairly personal level my entire life and my comments/beliefs are seldom made by knee jerk reactions.

I recently met with a member of MU admin and offered my thoughts on the university and the basketball program. While many of my comments were negative, I noted time and time again that these negative comments were coming from someone who LOVES Marquette University. For 50 of my my 53 years on this planet I have had a family member working at MU or going to school at MU. I can assure you that nobody (tie with everyone else on here) wants to see MU succeed across the board than I do.

You and I had our debates regarding the direction I feared MU ball was going years ago and that was fine. You can dismiss all of my comments and no hard feelings.

Golden Avalanche

Spoiled brats or someone who would love to see MU be the best it can be all aspects?

53 and you are an old man? I'm 55 and don't consider myself to be an old man.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 22, 2016, 01:22:50 PM
My understanding is that Jerry was there for Buzz. Not sure how much interest he had in staying.

I thought he quit, but was asked to stay until new coaching staff came in.

Quote from: Newsdrms on November 22, 2016, 09:34:16 PM
I thought he quit, but was asked to stay until new coaching staff came in.

I remember someone writing a post that painted quite the picture of a sad Jerry walking office to office, alone, turning off all the lights

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 22, 2016, 03:29:36 PM
I think this is more "pragmatic and reasonable" than Mike's view. But perhaps that makes me unreasonable.

I don't think my view and mu03's view are opposites at all. A lot of overlap there. We all can be reasonable and have somewhat different viewpoints.

Quote from: Norm on November 22, 2016, 02:44:42 PM
MU82, can you elaborate on what things you think Wojo has done really well?

I will admit that I was not wild about his hiring at all. I even posted a blurb on MUSCOOP when he was hired that my friends and I were having some drinks a couple nights before and we all joked about MU hiring Wojo - and the Duke guys laughed the loudest.

Regardless, what is it you think he has done really well thus far? Recruiting? Outreach to the Marquette and Milwaukee community? Getting seats filled at the Bradley Center? Good interviews with the media? What exactly?

I ask as one who does not live in the Milwaukee area and only gets to about 2-3 games a year, usually when MU visits the East Coast.

Norm, I don't live anywhere near Milwaukee. I get my info on MU hoops from reading stuff here, reading Matt's stuff in the JS and, of course, from watching games. Although I love MU hoops, I consider myself quite capable of doing objective analysis.

I think Wojo has been a very good recruiter. He seems quite good at selling the program to kids' parents.

I happen to think he's been a pretty good motivator. For example, some here made fun of Wojo taking away the team warmups last season ... but the team did respond after that. Had Al done it and achieved similar results, we'd still be talking about it as a legendary move. Even tonight's game against IUPUI after the tough loss to Pitt ... the Warriors were extremely active and aggressive; Wojo deserves at least a little credit for that, no?

I think his game coaching is a work in progress. As has been pointed out by others, he is getting better at designing plays out of time-outs but he maybe he's still a little slow sometimes at making strategic changes.

When I or somebody else points out that Al and Jay Wright and Coach K and countless other outstanding coaches were struggling just as much at this stage of their careers, we get told by impatient, frustrated or less-optimistic Scoopers that such comparisons are irrelevant or nonsensical. But it's OK to compare Wojo to whom? Buzz? Cal? Shaka?

It's obviously only my opinion, but I see no reason to change my stance that Wojo has shown to be good at some things while needing to improve at some others.

Quote from: MU82 on November 22, 2016, 10:06:14 PM
I don't think my view and mu03's view are opposites at all. A lot of overlap there. We all can be reasonable and have somewhat different viewpoints.

I agree they're not opposites. And imo they're both reasonable. I think there are a lot of reasonable (and different) opinions on Wojo and the state of the MU basketball program. I thought that when you declared yourself the pragmatic and reasonable spokesman (along with TAMU) you were implying those who saw it differently were neither pragmatic nor reasonable. If I misinterpreted my apologies.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 22, 2016, 10:33:04 PM
I agree they're not opposites. And imo they're both reasonable. I think there are a lot of reasonable (and different) opinions on Wojo and the state of the MU basketball program. I thought that when you declared yourself the pragmatic and reasonable spokesman (along with TAMU) you were implying those who saw it differently were neither pragmatic nor reasonable. If I misinterpreted my apologies.

For me its not about having a different opinion. Its about declaring that opinion as fact. I would take issue with someone who shared the same opinion as me but acted like it was a fact with no room for other opinions (see wades "HE gowne").

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 22, 2016, 11:10:52 PM
For me its not about having a different opinion. Its about declaring that opinion as fact. I would take issue with someone who shared the same opinion as me but acted like it was a fact with no room for other opinions (see wades "HE gowne").

That was a fact from day 1, there was no opinion about it.  So bad example.

Quote from: wadesworld on November 22, 2016, 11:16:36 PM
That was a fact from day 1, there was no opinion about it.  So bad example.

Really wasn't. I'm not re having that argument.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 22, 2016, 11:18:56 PM
Really wasn't. I'm not re having that argument.

Okay. Well he was gowne after a season from the day we started recruiting him. Hank being on the 2016-2017 Marquette basketball team was as likely as me being on the 2016-2017 Marquette basketball team. Could either in theory be possible? Sure. If professional basketball leagues got cancelled for eternity then Hank may have come back for a sophomore season, just like if I grew a foot and a hundred pounds as a then 26 year old without losing any coordination whatsoever Wojo may have given some thought to offering me a scholarship to play basketball at MU this year. But in reality? He gowne being a 19 year old millionaire and I'm still a 5'10, 155 lb now 27 year old who could smoke JayBee in a 3 point shooting contest.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 22, 2016, 11:18:56 PM
re having

You made that word up

I buy you a beer if it makes it into the Oxford Dictionary

Quote from: keefe on November 23, 2016, 02:13:39 AM
You made that word up

I buy you a beer if it makes it into the Oxford Dictionary

Not sure it's post factual enough to make it.

Quote from: MU82 on November 22, 2016, 10:17:49 PM
Norm, I don't live anywhere near Milwaukee. I get my info on MU hoops from reading stuff here, reading Matt's stuff in the JS and, of course, from watching games. Although I love MU hoops, I consider myself quite capable of doing objective analysis.

I think Wojo has been a very good recruiter. He seems quite good at selling the program to kids' parents.

I happen to think he's been a pretty good motivator. For example, some here made fun of Wojo taking away the team warmups last season ... but the team did respond after that. Had Al done it and achieved similar results, we'd still be talking about it as a legendary move. Even tonight's game against IUPUI after the tough loss to Pitt ... the Warriors were extremely active and aggressive; Wojo deserves at least a little credit for that, no?

I think his game coaching is a work in progress. As has been pointed out by others, he is getting better at designing plays out of time-outs but he maybe he's still a little slow sometimes at making strategic changes.

When I or somebody else points out that Al and Jay Wright and Coach K and countless other outstanding coaches were struggling just as much at this stage of their careers, we get told by impatient, frustrated or less-optimistic Scoopers that such comparisons are irrelevant or nonsensical. But it's OK to compare Wojo to whom? Buzz? Cal? Shaka?

It's obviously only my opinion, but I see no reason to change my stance that Wojo has shown to be good at some things while needing to improve at some others.

Thanks for the reply MU82.

Quote from: keefe on November 23, 2016, 02:13:39 AM
You made that word up

I buy you a beer if it makes it into the Oxford Dictionary

Technically I spelled it as two words, so wouldn't it be "you made that phrase up"?  ;D

Quote from: keefe on November 23, 2016, 02:13:39 AM
You made that word up

I buy you a beer if it makes it into the Oxford Dictionary

Merimam not Oxford, but...close enough to earn at least an O'Dule's, ai-na?

"to have and have not"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rehave

Quote from: keefe on November 23, 2016, 02:13:39 AM
You made that word up

I buy you a beer if it makes it into the Oxford Dictionary

rehave?

(https://i.imgur.com/rjiUfPPh.jpg)

Quote from: Newsdrms on November 22, 2016, 09:15:59 PM
53 and you are an old man? I'm 55 and don't consider myself to be an old man.

Wait 'til your Johnson goes south, hey?

Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 24, 2016, 08:00:48 AM

Wait 'til your Johnson goes south, hey?

I think we pay Stan good money, so he will stay up  in the North with us.

Hoya board actively discussing JT3 ouster

http://hoyatalk2.proboards.com/thread/29092/jt-iii-coaching-discussion?page=148

[quote author=MU82 link=topic=52652.msg874235#msg874235 date=1479874669

When I or somebody else points out that Al and Jay Wright and Coach K and countless other outstanding coaches were struggling just as much at this stage of their careers,
[/quote]
I pointed this out in the past. However, Al took over a program that went 5-21 the year before.
he went
8-18
14-12
21-9 NIT championship game
23-6 missed final 4 on Rick Mount buzzer beater.
Given the number of teams that went to NCAA and NIT the NIT was the equivalent of today's bid to NCAA.
Wojo is not on the same trajectory as AL was.
However, Al had an advantage in that he identified with the African-American player at a time when many southern teams were refusing to recruit African-American players.

Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on November 24, 2016, 08:27:22 AM
I think we pay Stan good money, so he will stay up  in the North with us.

I loled

Quote from: bilsu on November 24, 2016, 12:19:19 PM
[quote author=MU82 link=topic=52652.msg874235#msg874235 date=1479874669

When I or somebody else points out that Al and Jay Wright and Coach K and countless other outstanding coaches were struggling just as much at this stage of their careers,

I pointed this out in the past. However, Al took over a program that went 5-21 the year before.
he went
8-18
14-12
21-9 NIT championship game
23-6 missed final 4 on Rick Mount buzzer beater.
Given the number of teams that went to NCAA and NIT the NIT was the equivalent of today's bid to NCAA.
Wojo is not on the same trajectory as AL was.
However, Al had an advantage in that he identified with the African-American player at a time when many southern teams were refusing to recruit African-American players.

Agree that the eras were very different. I was just making the point that a lot of very successful coaches, including Al, had less-than-wonderful starts.

The point is irrefutable.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Quote from: MU82 on November 24, 2016, 04:04:04 PM
Agree that the eras were very different. I was just making the point that a lot of very successful coaches, including Al, had less-than-wonderful starts.

The point is irrefutable.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Yes--however ALOT of bad coaches who were eventually fired from their position also had bad starts. Hope we have the former. Time will tell.

I was wondering today if the season ticket and general fan apathy might be more down to Wojo than I initially thought. Three different people today who are the casual Marquette fan types (go to a few games, pay attention after the Super Bowl) asked me skeptically what I thought of Wojo. I could tell they were completely just trying to get a read.

With Buzz, his quirkiness and personality never led to apathy. Crean bringing us back to the Final Four and always engaging with fans made him likeable for passive fans. But Wojo doesn't have that rah rah mindset. The lack of immediate success coupled with the fairly dry, coach speak personality doesn't seem to have resonated with the fans that largely make the difference between selling 12,000 and 15,000 per game.

Winning is still the ultimate panacea, but it surprised me how much skepticism I felt from people on the outside looking in.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 24, 2016, 08:36:46 PM
I was wondering today if the season ticket and general fan apathy might be more down to Wojo than I initially thought. Three different people today who are the casual Marquette fan types (go to a few games, pay attention after the Super Bowl) asked me skeptically what I thought of Wojo. I could tell they were completely just trying to get a read.

With Buzz, his quirkiness and personality never led to apathy. Crean bringing us back to the Final Four and always engaging with fans made him likeable for passive fans. But Wojo doesn't have that rah rah mindset. The lack of immediate success coupled with the fairly dry, coach speak personality doesn't seem to have resonated with the fans that largely make the difference between selling 12,000 and 15,000 per game.

Winning is still the ultimate panacea, but it surprised me how much skepticism I felt from people on the outside looking in.

The other thing about Wojo, right or wrong, is that he is thought of as a Duke guy. That's how people, I think even casual MU fans view him. Its going to take some real success to change that view.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 24, 2016, 08:36:46 PM
I was wondering today if the season ticket and general fan apathy might be more down to Wojo than I initially thought. Three different people today who are the casual Marquette fan types (go to a few games, pay attention after the Super Bowl) asked me skeptically what I thought of Wojo. I could tell they were completely just trying to get a read.

With Buzz, his quirkiness and personality never led to apathy. Crean bringing us back to the Final Four and always engaging with fans made him likeable for passive fans. But Wojo doesn't have that rah rah mindset. The lack of immediate success coupled with the fairly dry, coach speak personality doesn't seem to have resonated with the fans that largely make the difference between selling 12,000 and 15,000 per game.

Winning is still the ultimate panacea, but it surprised me how much skepticism I felt from people on the outside looking in.

You are making a very good point.

The coach speak corporate mind set that Wojo exudes turns off many people. College Basketball is most exciting when you have a colorful character as a coach.  Combine the lack of compelling personality with a mediocre product and you have the elements which create fan apathy.

Quote from: We R Final Four on November 24, 2016, 07:13:23 PM
Yes--however ALOT of bad coaches who were eventually fired from their position also had bad starts. Hope we have the former. Time will tell.

All true.

There also have been plenty of coaches who have had good starts but then trailed off to mediocrity, usually after they had to start trying to win with their own recruits. Bruce Weber leaps to mind, but there have been many others.

Most true of all: Time will tell. Or, as I like to say, "We'll see."

I don't pretend to have all the answers. I just choose to be optimistic until given a reason not to be.

Quote from: MU82 on November 24, 2016, 09:37:44 PM
All true.

There also have been plenty of coaches who have had good starts but then trailed off to mediocrity, usually after they had to start trying to win with their own recruits. Bruce Weber leaps to mind, but there have been many others.

Most true of all: Time will tell. Or, as I like to say, "We'll see."

I don't pretend to have all the answers. I just choose to be optimistic until given a reason not to be.

Thus far, I'd say Wojo has been in a limited sample size the best recruiter we've seen at Marquette in the past 20 years. He's hit on the big names he reeled in, Ellenson and Howard are both players, but he's also done well with the guys further down and outside the top-100. Hauser and Cheatham look like studs. Carter and Heldt both look like they can at least be productive players. He seems to be better at closing the deal than Crean and better at evaluating high school talent than Buzz.

We can't really judge Wojo on how he did with the talent that was left for him because there simply wasn't enough talent here to win with. He'll have to win with his own guys. No idea how well he'll be able to do that, but the problem won't be the lack of pieces.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 24, 2016, 09:45:16 PM
Thus far, I'd say Wojo has been in a limited sample size the best recruiter we've seen at Marquette in the past 20 years. He's hit on the big names he reeled in, Ellenson and Howard are both players, but he's also done well with the guys further down and outside the top-100. Hauser and Cheatham look like studs. Carter and Heldt both look like they can at least be productive players. He seems to be better at closing the deal than Crean and better at evaluating high school talent than Buzz.

We can't really judge Wojo on how he did with the talent that was left for him because there simply wasn't enough talent here to win with. He'll have to win with his own guys. No idea how well he'll be able to do that, but the problem won't be the lack of pieces.

Nicely stated.

Again, we'll see.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 24, 2016, 08:36:46 PM
I was wondering today if the season ticket and general fan apathy might be more down to Wojo than I initially thought. Three different people today who are the casual Marquette fan types (go to a few games, pay attention after the Super Bowl) asked me skeptically what I thought of Wojo. I could tell they were completely just trying to get a read.

With Buzz, his quirkiness and personality never led to apathy. Crean bringing us back to the Final Four and always engaging with fans made him likeable for passive fans. But Wojo doesn't have that rah rah mindset. The lack of immediate success coupled with the fairly dry, coach speak personality doesn't seem to have resonated with the fans that largely make the difference between selling 12,000 and 15,000 per game.

Winning is still the ultimate panacea, but it surprised me how much skepticism I felt from people on the outside looking in.

This is compelling. We've been fortunate to have such interesting and unique characters define the program as coaches. Al, Rick, TC, Buzz. Those dudes made it fun to follow the team in a way that made you feel like there was something different going on. 

The past few years (including Buzz's final year...ESPECIALLY the Ohio State home game) the atmosphere has been anticeptic.  I remember the 70's with Al, the 80's with Majerus, '03 and the 3 Amigos.  The BC feels cavernous and empty.  Not much energy of late.

Quote from: muhoops1 on November 25, 2016, 12:09:47 AM
The past few years (including Buzz's final year...ESPECIALLY the Ohio State home game) the atmosphere has been anticeptic.  I remember the 70's with Al, the 80's with Majerus, '03 and the 3 Amigos. The BC feels cavernous and empty.  Not much energy of late.

That's because it has been cavernous and empty.  There hasn't been any real excitement since the BEast Championship banner went up.  Only winning, especially at home, solves that.

We have to be contenders.   Just winning cupcakes won't do it.  Start beating the BEast teams at home (and on the road) and some excitement will return. 

Anyone  know what season tickets sales were this year?  I thought last year we were down 2,500.  You have to win.  You have to be a contender.

Quote from: jsglow on November 25, 2016, 07:06:33 AM
That's because it has been cavernous and empty.  There hasn't been any real excitement since the BEast Championship banner went up.  Only winning, especially at home, solves that.

We've been an in denial fairweather fanbase for 30 years. The tonic has only ever been winning.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 24, 2016, 08:00:48 AM

Wait 'til your Johnson goes south, hey?

Better and more experienced than ever. You gowne, hey?

Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 24, 2016, 08:00:48 AM

Wait 'til your Johnson goes south, hey?

nothing a good ole change back to the warrior name couldn't fix, eyn'er?  if that couldn't pump some blood into those nether regions, then sorry, time to go home

Quote from: Marcus92 on November 22, 2016, 02:25:09 PM
I don't see Wojo shaking up his coaching staff at this point. Certainly not midseason. If he did bring on someone new, there are a number of experienced coaches not named Jerry Wainwright who might be interested:

Brian Gregory
49 years old. 248-180 (.579) head coaching record at Dayton and Georgia Tech. Former assistant to Tom Izzo at Michigan State.

Ray McCallum
55 years old. 300-281 (.516) head coaching record at Detroit, Houston and Ball State. Former assistant at Wisconsin, Michigan and Oklahoma.


Bruiser Flint
51 years old. 331-289 (.534) head coaching record at Drexel and UMass. Former assistant to John Calipari at UMass and Coppin State.

Jim Crews
62 years old. 431-404 (.516) head coaching record at St. Louis, Army and Evansville. Former assistant to Bob Knight at Indiana.

Rob Jeter
47 years old. 184-170 (.520) head coaching record at UW-Milwaukee. Former assist to Wisconsin and Marquette.

Pete Gillen came to mind over the holiday

Good luck gettin' Ol' Pete, ai na?

If anyone it has to be Barney Miller.

Man, do I miss the days of bitching about baseline out of bounds plays.

I'm not a WOJO apologist but the best coach in world can't will shots to go in or overcome the size issues of our roster which Michigan exploited in the first half of that game.  Comparisons to Buzz are ridiculous if you think about it given all of the players from that Era who made the NBA, several of whom are still on NBA rosters and big contributors.  The second it was apparent that Buzz wouldn't have that level of talent to work with for the forseeable future he bolted.  Can't really blame the guy for leaving when he did because if he had one more mediocre season like his last one at Marquette, it would have been that much harder for him to get another job and he wanted leave when his stock was still relatively high.  It was obvious to anyone that had he stayed an additional year, he would have struggled to to achieve his previous season's 17-15 record with who he had coming in so he up and left.  Who knows what WOJO  could do with Zar, Matthews, James, DJO, Jimmy, Crowder, or McNeal.........he's only had one player of that caliber who was here one year and that was his freshman year.  Now it's certainly possible that WOJO lacks the x/o substance many on this board claim, but until he's failed with the same caliber of players that Buzz had, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.  The way I see it, his recruiting is what needs improvement.

Quote from: Disco Hippie on November 26, 2016, 09:40:59 PM
I'm not a WOJO apologist but the best coach in world can't will shots to go in or overcome the size issues of our roster which Michigan exploited in the first half of that game.  Comparisons to Buzz are ridiculous if you think about it given all of the players from that Era who made the NBA, several of whom are still on NBA rosters and big contributors.  The second it was apparent that Buzz wouldn't have that level of talent to work with for the forseeable future he bolted.  Can't really blame the guy for leaving when he did because if he had one more mediocre season like his last one at Marquette, it would have been that much harder for him to get another job and he wanted leave when his stock was still relatively high.  It was obvious to anyone that had he stayed an additional year, he would have struggled to to achieve his previous season's 17-15 record with who he had coming in so he up and left.  Who knows what WOJO  could do with Zar, Matthews, James, DJO, Jimmy, Crowder, or McNeal.........he's only had one player of that caliber who was here one year and that was his freshman year.  Now it's certainly possible that WOJO lacks the x/o substance many on this board claim, but until he's failed with the same caliber of players that Buzz had, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.  The way I see it, his recruiting is what needs improvement.

Really?