Wojo

[bilsu]

Wojo is still learning and developing as a coach, which is OK. rollin I'm fine giving him a few more years to get things g.  However, we're paying him an awful lot for this on-the-job training.  We're clearly not getting our return on investment at this point.  Hopefully things turn around soon and we make it up in the next few years.

The trouble with this is while Wojo may improve as a coach his ability to recruit as he is learning is going down hill. His first year he was mentioned with a lot of high level recruits. This year he was barely considered by high level recruits and got one top 100 and two three stars. Losing hurts recruiting and by the time he learns to coach (in our opinion) he may not have the talent to do better than he is now. Now, I am not advocating firing Wojo, because unless you can show me we can hire a more successful coach, I see no reason to change. I never understood why MU had to go the assistant way, but established coaches seem not to want to come to MU. Therefore to fire Wojo to take another gamble on an assistant coach seems fool hearty to me. However, if the program totally falls apart with more transfers at year end, then I think we have no choice in the matter.

[warriorgnp]

Incident?  You mean transferring due to lack of PT?  Which occurs across the country by the hundreds of players?

[MerrittsMustache]

At this point in the Wojo Era, I've been impressed by his ability to recruit and his ability to motivate. What I still can't tell is whether or not the guy can actually coach and, most importantly, whether or not he and his staff can develop players.

Since Wojo took over, there really hasn't been a player who's shown significant improvement. Duane, Luke, JJJ - are any of those guys noticeably better than they were when Wojo arrived? Sure, JJJ occasionally plays more under control and Luke has developed a left hand but Duane is the same. Cohen regressed. Henry's shot selection still had ups and downs throughout his only season. So far, do Haanif or Traci look improved over last season? Obviously, a decent portion of that is on the players but there are a lot of coaches on this staff and not as much growth in the players as I'd like to see.

[Herman Cain]

The trouble with this is while Wojo may improve as a coach his ability to recruit as he is learning is going down hill. His first year he was mentioned with a lot of high level recruits. This year he was barely considered by high level recruits and got one top 100 and two three stars. Losing hurts recruiting and by the time he learns to coach (in our opinion) he may not have the talent to do better than he is now. Now, I am not advocating firing Wojo, because unless you can show me we can hire a more successful coach, I see no reason to change. I never understood why MU had to go the assistant way, but established coaches seem not to want to come to MU. Therefore to fire Wojo to take another gamble on an assistant coach seems fool hearty to me. However, if the program totally falls apart with more transfers at year end, then I think we have no choice in the matter.

We have an incredible coaching option staring us in the face. Stan Johnson has the keys to all the recruits and the current players respect him.  Stan has what it takes to get us to the promised land.

[bilsu]

At this point in the Wojo Era, I've been impressed by his ability to recruit and his ability to motivate. What I still can't tell is whether or not the guy can actually coach and, most importantly, whether or not he and his staff can develop players.

Since Wojo took over, there really hasn't been a player who's shown significant improvement. Duane, Luke, JJJ - are any of those guys noticeably better than they were when Wojo arrived? Sure, JJJ occasionally plays more under control and Luke has developed a left hand but Duane is the same. Cohen regressed. Henry's shot selection still had ups and downs throughout his only season. So far, do Haanif or Traci look improved over last season? Obviously, a decent portion of that is on the players but there are a lot of coaches on this staff and not as much growth in the players as I'd like to see.

I do not think Cohen regressed. The talent around him got better, which made him look worse.

[GGGG]

Of course the players come to the games with energy. They are college students and playing in big arenas. That motivation is going to be there regardless of who the coach is. I am talking about the motivation necessary to rally together as a cohesive unit through difficult times. It requires real leadership and motivational ability to achieve that. Wojo has none of that. The players see Wojo as a guy out solely for himself and not having their backs.  This latest incident with Sandy is further evidence of that. 

I have noticed nothing of the sort and I don't think you have any clue what you are talking about because that is the furthest thing that I have heard to describe Wojo and his relationship with the players.

[Norm]

Coach K's record from first three seasons at Duke:

80-81:  17-13
81-82:  10-17
82-83:  11-17

Took off after that.

That '82-'83 Duke team had a freshman class of Jay Bilas, Mark Alaire, Johnny Dawkins and Dave Henderson. Next year Coach K brought in Tommy Amaker. The ACC was also the best basketball conference in the nation in those days, with UNC winning the title in 1982 and NC State in 1983. Maryland was coached by Lefty Driessel and had Len Bias playing in those days too.

Now, the current version of the Big East has the defending National Champions in Villanova, but it remains to be seen if Wojo's current sophomore class of Carter, Cheatam, Heldt and Anim, and the freshmen Hauser and Howard can match those two classes on Coach K's 82-83 and 83-84 teams, but I guess there's always an outside chance. Coach K also had 5 years a head coach in at Army where he was 73-59 prior to taking over at Duke.

[Goose]

MU03eng

Never said Rodgers was not HOF caliber player. Noted what a respected journalist stated. I did say he is far from high caliber winner.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Any proof? Figured I'd ask for the 19th time.

Proof?  Tex/Gus has posted again and again that he personally knows what not only every current player is thinking and feeling, but what all potential recruits and their families are thinking and feeling.  What more proof do you need?

[wadesworld]

This thread is awesome. A clean look into the psyche of spoiled brats.

+1.  All this talk I've heard about "millennials" and all their issues, including coming from many here, and here we have mostly the older crowd whining and complaining because they aren't seeing the results they want in the way they want them.   

[Goose]

Wade

If putting my retirement on hold and paying MU nearly 300k over the past five years makes me a spoiled brat I wear that hat with pride. Here's hoping that it costs you 600k to do the same for your kids.

[Eldon]

To be fair Goose also questions whether Aaron Rodgers is a hall of fame, let alone a first ballot HoF so yeah....

He's spot on there

[Herman Cain]

+1.  All this talk I've heard about "millennials" and all their issues, including coming from many here, and here we have mostly the older crowd whining and complaining because they aren't seeing the results they want in the way they want them.   

That is what message boards and sports talk radio are for.

Mike and the Mad Dog was the most popular radio show in NY for years . People would call in and crap all over the Giants and Yankees even after they won Super Bowls and World Series.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

+1.  All this talk I've heard about "millennials" and all their issues, including coming from many here, and here we have mostly the older crowd whining and complaining because they aren't seeing the results they want in the way they want them.   

I understand defending Wojo, the process or whatever based on how you see it.  IMO there is no need to go here and insult people that don't agree with you.  Just my opinion.

[wadesworld]

Wade

If putting my retirement on hold and paying MU nearly 300k over the past five years makes me a spoiled brat I wear that hat with pride. Here's hoping that it costs you 600k to do the same for your kids.

Seriously, good for you.

If it's me doing that 20 years down the road for my kids, I certainly won't be sitting around bashing their generation for being spoiled and pampered while I'm the one doing the pampering, all while complaining that my favorite sports team is 2-2 four games into a thirty plus game season.

I understand defending Wojo, the process or whatever based on how you see it.  IMO there is no need to go here and insult people that don't agree with you.  Just my opinion.

I just think it's funny, yet also incredibly annoying, to constantly hear "Gen X'ers" whine and moan and b!tch about "millennials" and paint them with a broad brush as being selfish brats, and then come here and see them acting like, well, whiny little brats four games into a season.  It's the definition of irony.

Not to mention, us "millennials" didn't come out of the womb asking for everything to be free and given to us with no work.  If the tough and rugged "Gen X'ers" wanted us raised differently...well, that's on them to have made that happen.

[LAZER]

Seriously, good for you.

If it's me doing that 20 years down the road for my kids, I certainly won't be sitting around bashing their generation for being spoiled and pampered while I'm the one doing the pampering, all while complaining that my favorite sports team is 2-2 four games into a thirty plus game season.

I just think it's funny, yet also incredibly annoying, to constantly hear "Gen X'ers" whine and moan and b!tch about "millennials" and paint them with a broad brush as being selfish brats, and then come here and see them acting like, well, whiny little brats four games into a season.  It's the definition of irony.

Not to mention, us "millennials" didn't come out of the womb asking for everything to be free and given to us with no work.  If the tough and rugged "Gen X'ers" wanted us raised differently...well, that's on them to have made that happen.

Didn't boomers raise millenials, not Gen X?

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Didn't boomers raise millenials, not Gen X?

The vast majority, yes.

[onepost]

Of course the players come to the games with energy. They are college students and playing in big arenas. That motivation is going to be there regardless of who the coach is. I am talking about the motivation necessary to rally together as a cohesive unit through difficult times. It requires real leadership and motivational ability to achieve that. Wojo has none of that. The players see Wojo as a guy out solely for himself and not having their backs.  This latest incident with Sandy is further evidence of that.

Ok you've really gotta stop. Just stop. You have no idea what you're talking about and trot out these absurd narratives as truth when they're not.
The players love Wojo and the whole team loves playing for him and the assistant coaches.  Someone with everyday, first-hand knowledge for his entire tenure has said as much.  The problem, IMO and what has been stated over and over, is that what he brings with motivation and passion he lacks in technical skill.  That and we just didn't have the horses his first year.  And while having a young staff of former players plays well with recruits (would just MAYBE explain how we've recruited so well under Wojo), not having a great X's and O's coach anywhere on the staff has proven to be a real issue.

Now, when Buzz left I was 1000% in on Gregg Marshall, and there were serious rumblings about Marquette absolutely being a job he'd leave WSU for, even with Baker and Van Vleet in the midst of their time there.  He would have been an improvement over Buzz and I'd argue we'd have been much further ahead right now with him.  I didn't love the Wojo hire, but we all understood why he got the gig.  While I think 2-2 is way too early to make any definitive statements on 16-17, Keefe and others are totally right the trends are troubling.  And it makes it even harder when a "true" 4 in Kyle Washington is killing it at Cincy thus far.  Our lack of size leaves the margin for error so slim with this team and I'm not confident we're gonna be able to play enough flawless ball to compensate.  We need to find an identity and quick because Wojo not knowing who his PG is game-by-game, how we defend the low post with no size, etc. is not doing us any favors.

[The Lens]

Would not mind wojo finding his Jerry Wainwright.

I'll never understand why Jerry wasn't retained.  Jerry wasn't a Buzz lifer.  This wasn't Louis Orr or TC's HS coach.  Jerry seemed to have run clean programs at Richmond and DePaul.  He could have been a nice balance to the Noon Ball Crew.

[Goose]

Wade

You might not find a bigger supporter of the millennial generation than me. Day in and day out I stress in the business world the importance of the young talent out there. I have passed on much of my daily work to my oldest son because he brings skills and value that I do not possess.

Not sure where I bashed or even questioned the younger generation. Again, I am now betting retirement on the millennial generation. In the future, please read my posts before throwing stones.

[rocky_warrior]

Didn't boomers raise millenials, not Gen X?

millennials don't care who raised them.  Clearly their problems are someone else's fault.

[Class71]

Agreed. But declaring our team not competitive four games into the season due to one blow out loss to a good team is.

It is not one game it is how we play against teams in the top 100. Cupcake games are a waste of time unless those games are used as a training exercise. They are meaningless wins. Against some competition we are 1-2.

We can usually shoot 3's, we can drive provided the defense is weak and we can play inside if the team is short. After that we have real trouble. That is, no kickout passes when a drive is stopped, no inside shots made if there is a power forward, poor shot selection, no game plan, too much one-on-one, poor passing and poor D. These weaknesses have been nagging problems for each season Wojo has been here. Does anyone see progress on any basic skills? If we had beaten Pitt the comments above would have still been valid. If we had lost to Pitt but played as a solid team that shows progress I would feel differently.

[Nukem2]

I'll never understand why Jerry wasn't retained.  Jerry wasn't a Buzz lifer.  This wasn't Louis Orr or TC's HS coach.  Jerry seemed to have run clean programs at Richmond and DePaul.  He could have been a nice balance to the Noon Ball Crew.

Jerry also had a connection to Wojo as he recruited Wojo when he was an assistant at Wake Forest.  They had good words for each other at the BB Awards event shortly after Wojo was hired.

[Herman Cain]

Ok you've really gotta stop. Just stop. You have no idea what you're talking about and trot out these absurd narratives as truth when they're not.
The players love Wojo and the whole team loves playing for him and the assistant coaches.  Someone with everyday, first-hand knowledge for his entire tenure has said as much.  The problem, IMO and what has been stated over and over, is that what he brings with motivation and passion he lacks in technical skill.  That and we just didn't have the horses his first year.  And while having a young staff of former players plays well with recruits (would just MAYBE explain how we've recruited so well under Wojo), not having a great X's and O's coach anywhere on the staff has proven to be a real issue.

Now, when Buzz left I was 1000% in on Gregg Marshall, and there were serious rumblings about Marquette absolutely being a job he'd leave WSU for, even with Baker and Van Vleet in the midst of their time there.  He would have been an improvement over Buzz and I'd argue we'd have been much further ahead right now with him.  I didn't love the Wojo hire, but we all understood why he got the gig.  While I think 2-2 is way too early to make any definitive statements on 16-17, Keefe and others are totally right the trends are troubling.  And it makes it even harder when a "true" 4 in Kyle Washington is killing it at Cincy thus far.  Our lack of size leaves the margin for error so slim with this team and I'm not confident we're gonna be able to play enough flawless ball to compensate.  We need to find an identity and quick because Wojo not knowing who his PG is game-by-game, how we defend the low post with no size, etc. is not doing us any favors.

You are seeing things through rose colored glasses. The players do not love Wojo and the whole team does not like playing for him.   Unfortunately we are stuck with this guy for another three years. So get used to mediocrity as that is what we will be seeing. This years team will have some nice moments against the cupcakes and be fun to watch at times, but they have no real chance in conference play, and the attitude of the team and coaches will decay as the losses mount. The blame lies solely on Wojo. He has been given a fantastic opportunity and blown it.

[wadesworld]

Wade

You might not find a bigger supporter of the millennial generation than me. Day in and day out I stress in the business world the importance of the young talent out there. I have passed on much of my daily work to my oldest son because he brings skills and value that I do not possess.

Not sure where I bashed or even questioned the younger generation. Again, I am now betting retirement on the millennial generation. In the future, please read my posts before throwing stones.

Again, that is great for you and as a millennial (who doesn't consider himself selfish or expecting to be given anything), I thank you, seriously.  I didn't direct my post about millennials at you or anyone in particular at all.  You're the one who responded to it.