Imagine the Big East, Coast to Coast
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/21/sports/ncaabasketball/imagine-the-big-east-coast-to-coast.html?_r=1
As I watched Gonzaga, from Spokane, Wash., dismantle Seton Hall in the round of 64, I thought that basketball-centric Gonzaga — and its conference rival St. Mary's, from California — would be a perfect fit in an expanded Big East.
Gonzaga's Few never suggested that his university or St. Mary's would join such a league, but he acknowledged that such a realignment made some sense.
"I actually think the Big East is positioned, if they want, to expand," he said. "If they wanted to expand nationally, I think that would be really, really crafty, and they could be a national basketball-only conference."
Why not keep going and have, as Few suggested, a presence in every time zone?
Out of necessity, a national Big East Conference would be divided into Western and Eastern divisions to cut down on travel and reduce time away from class. It would also create compelling new rivalries. So let the so-called Power 5 conferences carry — and risk sinking under — the enormous weight of football and its multimillion-dollar facilities and multimillion-dollar coaching salaries.
A national Big East basketball conference would offset some of the deleterious effects of football and give fans across the country what the old Big East delivered so well.
Quote from: Aughnanure on March 21, 2016, 03:58:14 PM
Imagine the Big East, Coast to Coast
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/21/sports/ncaabasketball/imagine-the-big-east-coast-to-coast.html?_r=1
As I watched Gonzaga, from Spokane, Wash., dismantle Seton Hall in the round of 64, I thought that basketball-centric Gonzaga — and its conference rival St. Mary's, from California — would be a perfect fit in an expanded Big East.
Gonzaga's Few never suggested that his university or St. Mary's would join such a league, but he acknowledged that such a realignment made some sense.
"I actually think the Big East is positioned, if they want, to expand," he said. "If they wanted to expand nationally, I think that would be really, really crafty, and they could be a national basketball-only conference."
Why not keep going and have, as Few suggested, a presence in every time zone?
Out of necessity, a national Big East Conference would be divided into Western and Eastern divisions to cut down on travel and reduce time away from class. It would also create compelling new rivalries. So let the so-called Power 5 conferences carry — and risk sinking under — the enormous weight of football and its multimillion-dollar facilities and multimillion-dollar coaching salaries.
A national Big East basketball conference would offset some of the deleterious effects of football and give fans across the country what the old Big East delivered so well.
I would dread the 10pm starts of those west.coast games
On-board, but where are you going to find 10 good quality non-football schools west of the Mississippi for the western division (Gonzaga and St Mary's are two)?
How would the conference tournament work with 20 teams in the conference? Do the bottom 4 teams just not make it at all?
I think the regular season works out ok, do an unbalanced division schedule(play all 9 division teams once + play 5 twice + 4 crossover games)
And yes I'm assuming that you have to create an entire western division without using the current teams to supply that division because that is an expensive proposition that some two out of three from Marquette/Creighton/DePaul would have to take on as the western most current conference teams.
I think it's very compelling basketball and narrative wise, I just don't think its feasible, especially with the olympic sports.
Would be great! Yes the west coast games would suck, but it would be great for the conference!
But then again right now we can't get out fan 10 team league :/
Quote from: mu03eng on March 21, 2016, 04:05:25 PM
On-board, but where are you going to find 10 good quality non-football schools west of the Mississippi for the western division (Gonzaga and St Mary's are two)?
How would the conference tournament work with 20 teams in the conference? Do the bottom 4 teams just not make it at all?
I think the regular season works out ok, do an unbalanced division schedule(play all 9 division teams once + play 5 twice + 4 crossover games)
And yes I'm assuming that you have to create an entire western division without using the current teams to supply that division because that is an expensive proposition that some two out of three from Marquette/Creighton/DePaul would have to take on as the western most current conference teams.
I think it's very compelling basketball and narrative wise, I just don't think its feasible, especially with the olympic sports.
Go 16 teams, add creighton and DePaul to the west (sorry DePaul...)
Add gonzaga, st Mary's. Would only need 4 more.
NM.
Stupid idea. I'd be fine with adding the Zags, and perhaps SMU as a travel partner for two game road trips - but the idea of adding a whole west cost division is stupid. Not enough good teams without P6 homes after those two.
Quote from: mu03eng on March 21, 2016, 04:05:25 PM
On-board, but where are you going to find 10 good quality non-football schools west of the Mississippi for the western division (Gonzaga and St Mary's are two)?
How would the conference tournament work with 20 teams in the conference? Do the bottom 4 teams just not make it at all?
I think the regular season works out ok, do an unbalanced division schedule(play all 9 division teams once + play 5 twice + 4 crossover games)
And yes I'm assuming that you have to create an entire western division without using the current teams to supply that division because that is an expensive proposition that some two out of three from Marquette/Creighton/DePaul would have to take on as the western most current conference teams.
I think it's very compelling basketball and narrative wise, I just don't think its feasible, especially with the olympic sports.
I think it's more a western quadrant plus Marquette-Creighton-Depaul. No way they're adding 10 teams out there, it's hard enough to find 3 good ones. I'd assume its Gonzaga-BYU-St. Mary's-St. Louis + Creighton, Marquette, Depaul. So a group of western schools that would help alleviate the travel problem. Too bad there just isn't a 4th team out there that would be worth it to add- no way they'd go Wichita St or UNLV would drop football.
Quote from: fjm on March 21, 2016, 04:09:36 PM
Go 16 teams, add creighton and DePaul to the west (sorry DePaul...)
Add gonzaga, st Mary's. Would only need 4 more.
Well Marquette would also have to go then. Add St. Louis to create a group of 4 on the western side of Midwest. Then find one more on the west to add with St. Mary's, Gonzaga, and BYU.
Would kind of suck to lose a lot of games with the East, but I'd love the chance to become the main rival of Gonzaga.
League foundation to start (adding Gonzaga & St. Mary's)
East
Georgetown
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John's
Villanova
Xavier
West
Butler
Creighton
DePaul
Gonzaga
Marquette
St. Mary's
Quote from: Aughnanure on March 21, 2016, 04:13:20 PM
Well Marquette would also have to go then. Add St. Louis to create a group of 4 on the western side of Midwest. Then find one more on the west to add with St. Mary's, Gonzaga, and BYU.
Would kind of suck to lose a lot of games with the East, but I'd love the chance to become the main rival of Gonzaga.
Would be good. If we had 16, you play each of your Division 2x (14 games) then play two out of division home and away (18 conference games total)
Quote from: VegasWarrior77 on March 21, 2016, 04:14:40 PM
League foundation to start (adding Gonzaga & St. Mary's)
East
Georgetown
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John's
Villanova
Xavier
West
Butler
Creighton
DePaul
Gonzaga
Marquette
St. Mary's
That would suck for ticket sales at home games to lose G'Town, Nova and Xavier as home and homes.
Quote from: VegasWarrior77 on March 21, 2016, 04:14:40 PM
League foundation to start (adding Gonzaga & St. Mary's)
East
Georgetown
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John's
Villanova
Xavier
West
Butler
Creighton
DePaul
Gonzaga
Marquette
St. Mary's
Yep. Wouldn't have to be any more complicated than that.
Possible future expansions could include St. Joe's, Dayton (assuming Villanova or Xavier would stand for it) or even Richmond in the East and BYU in the West.
Quote from: mu03eng on March 21, 2016, 04:05:25 PM
On-board, but where are you going to find 10 good quality non-football schools west of the Mississippi for the western division (Gonzaga and St Mary's are two)?
How would the conference tournament work with 20 teams in the conference? Do the bottom 4 teams just not make it at all?
I think the regular season works out ok, do an unbalanced division schedule(play all 9 division teams once + play 5 twice + 4 crossover games)
And yes I'm assuming that you have to create an entire western division without using the current teams to supply that division because that is an expensive proposition that some two out of three from Marquette/Creighton/DePaul would have to take on as the western most current conference teams.
I think it's very compelling basketball and narrative wise, I just don't think its feasible, especially with the olympic sports.
I think they just meant adding Gonzaga and St. Mary's and dividing those 12 into 2 divisions. Buf for fun:
EastGeorgetown
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John's
Villanova
Xavier
Butler
DePaul
Marquette
Dayton
WestCreighton
Gonzaga
St. Mary's
BYU
Denver?
San Francisco?
Wichita State?
Northern Iowa?
UC Santa Barbara?
Long Beach State?
New Mexico State?
Santa Clara?
Loyola Marymount?
Portland?
San Diego?
Nevermind. Not fun. Not enough quality teams out there.
DONT FIX WHAT ISN'T BROKEN! DO NOT DILUTE THIS LEAGUE FURTHER.
If the Zags want in, great - give em' a travel partner (BYU or St. Marys) and make them bite the bullet to get to their road games. Add them for Men's BB only for all I care. Just PLEASE don't do this East / West split garbage in which MU is going to be in the weaker grouping.
Quote from: Norm on March 21, 2016, 04:20:08 PM
That would suck for ticket sales at home games to lose G'Town, Nova and Xavier as home and homes.
1. Wouldn't necessarily lose a home game with those teams every year. Play your division twice (10 games), play the other division once (six more games) and then add a second game with two opponents from the other division. Rotate then every three years.
2. Gonzaga would be as big a draw as any of those three, I would think.
3. I think time/day of week affects attendance during the conference season as much as who's the opponent. Saturday night vs Creighton did a lot better than Wednesday night vs Georgetown.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 21, 2016, 04:27:55 PM
1. Wouldn't necessarily lose a home game with those teams every year. Play your division twice (10 games), play the other division once (six more games) and then add a second game with two opponents from the other division. Rotate then every three years.
2. Gonzaga would be as big a draw as any of those three, I would think.
3. I think time/day of week affects attendance during the conference season as much as who's the opponent. Saturday night vs Creighton did a lot better than Wednesday night vs Georgetown.
+1
Quote from: Pakuni on March 21, 2016, 04:27:55 PM
1. Wouldn't necessarily lose a home game with those teams every year. Play your division twice (10 games), play the other division once (six more games) and then add a second game with two opponents from the other division. Rotate then every three years.
2. Gonzaga would be as big a draw as any of those three, I would think.
3. I think time/day of week affects attendance during the conference season as much as who's the opponent. Saturday night vs Creighton did a lot better than Wednesday night vs Georgetown.
I'd like there to be a yearly cross-over "rivalry" game between programs on each divisions. Like DePaul-St. John's, Georgetown-Gonzaga, Nova-Marquette, St. Mary's-Providence (the farthest two), Seton Hall-Creighton, Butler-Xavier.
Something that I never really thought about is that the Zags is that they would give Fox more programming to work with with Gonzaga being on the West Coast. (Creighton is west but still in the central time zone.)
I really do love the Round Robin though. I would hate to see that go by the wayside.
I don't see what the Big East has to gain from this.
Quote from: Eldon on March 21, 2016, 04:39:15 PM
Something that I never really thought about is that the Zags is that they would give Fox more programming to work with with Gonzaga being on the West Coast. (Creighton is west but still in the central time zone.)
I really do love the Round Robin though. I would hate to see that go by the wayside.
St. Mary's would be a late (Pacific Time Zone) game too!
Quote from: VegasWarrior77 on March 21, 2016, 04:14:40 PM
League foundation to start (adding Gonzaga & St. Mary's)
East
Georgetown
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John's
Villanova
Xavier
West
Butler
Creighton
DePaul
Gonzaga
Marquette
St. Mary's
Yuck. No thanks. Keep as is instead of that.
Quote from: Litehouse on March 21, 2016, 04:40:19 PM
I don't see what the Big East has to gain from this.
Agreed.
Quote from: Aughnanure on March 21, 2016, 04:11:47 PM
I think it's more a western quadrant plus Marquette-Creighton-Depaul. No way they're adding 10 teams out there, it's hard enough to find 3 good ones. I'd assume its Gonzaga-BYU-St. Mary's-St. Louis + Creighton, Marquette, Depaul. So a group of western schools that would help alleviate the travel problem. Too bad there just isn't a 4th team out there that would be worth it to add- no way they'd go Wichita St or UNLV would drop football.
This is how I read it as well. MU would be in the west.
I don't see what Fox has to gain from this either. They already have a deal with the Pac-12 and can show late west coast games for a triple-header. It seems like a great idea for Gonzaga and St. Mary's, but a bad idea for everyone else.
After watching Big East teams crap the bed over the weekend, I wouldn't mind exploring a way to add Gonzaga to the mix. Year in and year out, they are a powerful program. If it means adding St Marys too, I would at least consider it.
For fun, a future 15-team Big East conference:
Atlantic Division
Georgetown
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John's
Villanova
Great Lakes Division
Butler
Creighton
DePaul
Marquette
Xavier
Pacific Division
Gonzaga
Loyola Maramount
San Francisco
Santa Clara
St. Mary's
Granted, SF and Loyola are getting pretty weak on the basketball side of things. But Gonzaga and St. Mary's are legit programs. And this alignment would cover 10 of the country's top 40 metropolitan areas — including New York (#1), Los Angeles (#2), Chicago (#3), Philadelphia (#6), Washington D.C. (#7) and San Francisco (#11). Pretty attractive to Fox and its advertisers.
How to play an 18-game schedule, same as the current Big East — face each division opponent home and away, and each non-division opponent once.
Just imagine the opportunities that would open for recruiting.
What's so tough about that?
Quote from: Marcus92 on March 21, 2016, 05:20:48 PM
For fun, a future 15-team Big East conference:
Atlantic Division
Georgetown
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John's
Villanova
Great Lakes Division
Butler
Creighton
DePaul
Marquette
Xavier
Pacific Division
Gonzaga
Loyola Maramount
San Francisco
Santa Clara
St. Mary's
Granted, SF and Loyola are getting pretty weak on the basketball side of things. But Gonzaga and St. Mary's are legit programs. And this alignment would cover 10 of the country's top 40 metropolitan areas — including New York (#1), Los Angeles (#2), Chicago (#3), Philadelphia (#6), Washington D.C. (#7) and San Francisco (#11). Pretty attractive to Fox and its advertisers.
How to play an 18-game schedule, same as the current Big East — face each division opponent home and away, and each non-division opponent once.
Just imagine the opportunities that would open for recruiting.
What's so tough about that?
This is interesting. Certainly expands the conference footprint and recruiting base. If expansion is inevitable, this makes some sense. One of my fears: Conference tourney moves from MSG to a more central location like Chicago or Indy.
Quote from: Marcus92 on March 21, 2016, 05:20:48 PM
For fun, a future 15-team Big East conference:
Atlantic Division
Georgetown
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John's
Villanova
Great Lakes Division
Butler
Creighton
DePaul
Marquette
Xavier
Pacific Division
Gonzaga
Loyola Maramount
San Francisco
Santa Clara
St. Mary's
Granted, SF and Loyola are getting pretty weak on the basketball side of things. But Gonzaga and St. Mary's are legit programs. And this alignment would cover 10 of the country's top 40 metropolitan areas — including New York (#1), Los Angeles (#2), Chicago (#3), Philadelphia (#6), Washington D.C. (#7) and San Francisco (#11). Pretty attractive to Fox and its advertisers.
How to play an 18-game schedule, same as the current Big East — face each division opponent home and away, and each non-division opponent once.
Just imagine the opportunities that would open for recruiting.
What's so tough about that?
I actually kinda dig that. We'd gain one great program and another consistently solid one, and hugely expand MU's exposure. Plus, every conference needs a few doormats (we're looking at you, DePaul).
Quote from: Marcus92 on March 21, 2016, 05:20:48 PM
Pacific Division
Gonzaga
Loyola Maramount
San Francisco
Santa Clara Portland
St. Mary's Seattle U
My wish list. Not exactly grounded in competitiveness, and would require major investment from everyone not named Gonzaga. But you get four major markets, the Zags, and five very fun, very different road trips.
BYU for sure?
Quote from: avid1010 on March 21, 2016, 05:54:28 PM
BYU for sure?
A football team and a propensity for prima donna behavior that would make ND proud (see Holy War hiatus.)
Al McGuire was anathema to an all Catholic league.
It looks like the first step of the east coast, Big East, breaking away.
Indianapolis, Omaha, Milwaukee, Seattle look good on a map, but they don't add up to the suburbs of NY. Only 2.5 million, Cincinnati is not in the top 50.
Are there any media sales reps. on Scoop?
Quote from: fjm on March 21, 2016, 04:09:36 PM
Go 16 teams, add creighton and DePaul to the west (sorry DePaul...)
Add gonzaga, st Mary's. Would only need 4 more.
St. Louis Billikens, Santa Clara?, Loyola Marymount?, Portland univ.?, univ. of San Francisco? Any of these qualify for western schools in addition to the zags?
Quote from: VegasWarrior77 on March 21, 2016, 04:14:40 PM
League foundation to start (adding Gonzaga & St. Mary's)
East
Georgetown
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John's
Villanova
Xavier
West
Butler
Creighton
DePaul
Gonzaga
Marquette
St. Mary's
Add Uconn and Cincy to this. Put Cincy and Xavier in different divisions.
Quote from: bilsu on March 21, 2016, 06:59:43 PM
Add Uconn and Cincy to this. Put Cincy and Xavier in different divisions.
Sigh. We've covered this a thousand times. NO FOOTBALL SCHOOLS.
Quote from: Groin_pull on March 21, 2016, 05:32:44 PMThis is interesting. Certainly expands the conference footprint and recruiting base. If expansion is inevitable, this makes some sense. One of my fears: Conference tourney moves from MSG to a more central location like Chicago or Indy.
I don't think expansion is inevitable; the Big East should be a solid Top 6 conference for the future with its current schools. But if the desire is to go national, it seems possible.
Two things I wouldn't want to see: 1) Even with the addition of a team like Gonzaga, expansion weakens the overall strength of the conference; or 2) Adding too many teams makes it impossible to play enough home and aways (nothing like rivalry revenge games) and every team at least once during the season.
I'd bet on St. Louis/Dayton before any West Coast expansion. And I doubt that's very likely, at least in the next 5 years.
Rumors were swirling today that Kevin Stallings was the top candidate at SLU. Think the Billikens are looking to get into the Big East with big name hire???
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on March 21, 2016, 08:07:19 PM
Rumors were swirling today that Kevin Stallings was the top candidate at SLU. Think the Billikens are looking to get into the Big East with big name hire???
I wouldn't doubt that they have been told that they are a candidate if they turn their program around.
Quote from: VegasWarrior77 on March 21, 2016, 04:14:40 PM
League foundation to start (adding Gonzaga & St. Mary's)
East+Dayton
Georgetown
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John's
Villanova
Xavier
West+St.Louis
Butler
Creighton
DePaul
Gonzaga
Marquette
St. Mary's
Adding Dayton & St. Louis...(?)
As for all of the above ...
No thanks!
Like this idea in general. Also, change the moniker to BEAST
Quote from: Marcus92 on March 21, 2016, 05:20:48 PM
For fun, a future 15-team Big East conference:
Atlantic Division
Georgetown
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John's
Villanova
Great Lakes Division
Butler
Creighton
DePaul
Marquette
Xavier
Pacific Division
Gonzaga
Loyola Maramount Pepperdine (more history)
San Francisco BYU (St. Mary's already carries the SF metro)
Santa Clara (Don't know what to put here. Denver sucks at basketball otherwise would be good)
St. Mary's
Granted, SF and Loyola are getting pretty weak on the basketball side of things. But Gonzaga and St. Mary's are legit programs. And this alignment would cover 10 of the country's top 40 metropolitan areas — including New York (#1), Los Angeles (#2), Chicago (#3), Philadelphia (#6), Washington D.C. (#7) and San Francisco (#11). Pretty attractive to Fox and its advertisers.
How to play an 18-game schedule, same as the current Big East — face each division opponent home and away, and each non-division opponent once.
Just imagine the opportunities that would open for recruiting.
What's so tough about that?
this is some of the stupidest sh!t I seen in a while.
Gonzaga wants to play with the BE, fine. Get a few other teams on the west coast and let's play some OOC games together. affiliation, if you will. but this whole "national big east" is just frickin dumb.
Quote from: Groin_pull on March 21, 2016, 07:01:25 PM
Sigh. We've covered this a thousand times. NO FOOTBALL SCHOOLS.
That's a fan issue. If they found a place to park their football, big east would take them in a second. But they won't do that so for now, no football schools
Quote from: Groin_pull on March 21, 2016, 07:01:25 PM
Sigh. We've covered this a thousand times. NO FOOTBALL SCHOOLS.
That is your opinion. I do not give a damn that they are football schools. Two football schools, especially ones that the power 5 do not want, are not going to have any power over the Big East. I want the best basketball conference possible. These are far superior to some of the names being thrown out there.
Quote from: PTM on March 21, 2016, 09:27:59 PM
Ugly
This.
There are two (and only two) schools that should even be considered:
Gonzaga. Welcome aboard, now deal with the travel, alone.
UConn. Come on back, but bring proof that you knifed your pigskin.
Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 21, 2016, 11:03:33 PM
That's a fan issue. If they found a place to park their football, big east would take them in a second. But they won't do that so for now, no football schools
Actually it isn't a fan issue. I think the BE schools would agree. And unless they drop down to FCS they ain't parking football anywhere.
Adding these schools would be the sign for Georgetown and Villanova to find another home.
There is already pushback in some quarters that schools like Creighton and DePaul are poor fits and attendance to these games is down. Georgetown liked the idea of academic peer institutions in the old big East (Notre Dame, BC), and there are none in the new 10-team arrangement.
Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 21, 2016, 11:03:33 PM
That's a fan issue. If they found a place to park their football, big east would take them in a second. But they won't do that so for now, no football schools
I've always thought it was a stability issue. So long as they have football, they're going to want football money. That means being in a good football conference, which would lead to them always looking to leave.
Ultimately, maybe the question is:
who cares?It makes your conference look like a stepping stone, but maybe that's worth the buzz (and ncaa shares) in the meantime?
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on March 22, 2016, 05:48:37 AM
Actually it isn't a fan issue. I think the BE schools would agree. And unless they drop down to FCS they ain't parking football anywhere.
Nope, if Uconn went independent in football the beast would take them without hesitation. But you're right, Uconn football isn't going anywhere
Quote from: Marcus92 on March 21, 2016, 05:20:48 PM
DePaul
Loyola Maramount
San Francisco
Santa Clara
St. Mary's
wouldnt this just solidify mid major status?
Quote from: DFW HOYA on March 22, 2016, 06:05:09 AM
There is already pushback in some quarters that schools like Creighton and DePaul are poor fits and attendance to these games is down. Georgetown liked the idea of academic peer institutions in the old big East (Notre Dame, BC), and there are none in the new 10-team arrangement.
Nothing sells tickets like USWNR rankings!
(http://i46.tinypic.com/21b2e12.gif)
Quote from: MUfan12 on March 22, 2016, 08:27:18 AM
Nothing sells tickets like USWNR rankings!
(http://i46.tinypic.com/21b2e12.gif)
Imagine, universities considering their academic standing. Don't they know schools should just focus on being assembly lines for the NFL and NBA?
Quote from: DFW HOYA on March 22, 2016, 06:05:09 AM
Adding these schools would be the sign for Georgetown and Villanova to find another home.
There is already pushback in some quarters that schools like Creighton and DePaul are poor fits and attendance to these games is down. Georgetown liked the idea of academic peer institutions in the old big East (Notre Dame, BC), and there are none in the new 10-team arrangement.
Oh brother. Where exactly do Georgetown fans think they deserve to be as a non-football school?
Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 22, 2016, 07:34:26 AM
Nope, if Uconn went independent in football the beast would take them without hesitation.
I don't think that is the case at all. I don't think the BE has any interest in schools where football could be a distraction
Quote from: Groin_pull on March 22, 2016, 08:54:23 AM
Imagine, universities considering their academic standing. Don't they know schools should just focus on being assembly lines for the NFL and NBA?
Good think you are wearing a helmet in your profile pic, because the point just sailed above your head.
Quote from: Groin_pull on March 22, 2016, 08:54:23 AM
Imagine, universities considering their academic standing. Don't they know schools should just focus on being assembly lines for the NFL and NBA?
Trouble reading? I'm not saying they should sell out their academics for sports. But the academic profiles of other schools has precious little to do with attendance.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on March 21, 2016, 04:26:38 PM
DONT FIX WHAT ISN'T BROKEN! DO NOT DILUTE THIS LEAGUE FURTHER.
If the Zags want in, great - give em' a travel partner (BYU or St. Marys) and make them bite the bullet to get to their road games. Add them for Men's BB only for all I care. Just PLEASE don't do this East / West split garbage in which MU is going to be in the weaker grouping.
Exactly. Divisions as proposed is as foolhardy for Marquette as changing our nickname to Gold or having Blueteaux as our mascot.
I realise the point has been made countless times, but to state the obvious, it is all about money. That is to say, it is all about television "live content."
Therefore, the determining force behind any expansion will be media markets. For instance, Dayton is out because it falls under, and is a sub-set to the Cincinnati (Xavier) market.
The Big East may expand from 10, if, and only if, the "right" (read pretty big and fairly rich) markets come into play. So, if the Big East stays east, one has to look for the "right" team in Atlanta, Detroit, Cleveland, and/or, the Florida market.
If the Big East/FOX decide to go west, well, that really opens up the dynamic.
The second part of the expansion equation, is the new members must be not only in an uncovered biggish market, but also be a team with history at a high level. This, in turn, does two things. Higher competition, in more markets, leads to higher which, in turn, generate more revenue.
Finally, the "right" new members, in significant markets, that have a fairly high level basketball brand, should lead to more NCAA bids. These bids, of course, lead to more television coverage, and more money.
The ACC, because of the number of teams it has in the "Sweet 16" (a phrase first turned by Al McGuire, by the way), today, will earn an additional 30 million dollars. If the ACC teams go further, then the league earns more. (Also, note how many of the remaining 16 also have football programs.)
So, in conclusion, the determining factors for any Big East league expansion are market placement/size, and a school with a historically significant basketball program/brand.
Frankly, I do see many schools fitting these parameters (UConn, Zags, and ?) short of a raid, or Universities further bifurcating their varsity sports programs into different leagues, expansion seems to be a "tuff nut to crack."
And not to pick on you at all Vegas but you must admit that you're biased living 1500 miles away. If I were in your shoes, I'd love MU (and every other BEast team) flying west twice each year, even if only for BEast TV during prime time.
Honestly guys, potentially regularly trading a home game with Nova each year for a game with St. Mary's is just plain dumb. We worked our arse off (and thank you DePaul) to get invited to the big boy table a decade ago. And now others in the general midwest (looking at you Creighton and Butler) get to thank us for the same. Despite what Bill Walton likes to claim, the center of the basketball universe is not west of the Rockies front range.
I have no objection to folks like Gonzaga but the burden must be 100% on them. If they want 10 3000-4000 mile round-trip frequent flyer credits each year they can be my guest.
Quote from: DFW HOYA on March 22, 2016, 06:05:09 AM
Adding these schools would be the sign for Georgetown and Villanova to find another home.
There is already pushback in some quarters that schools like Creighton and DePaul are poor fits and attendance to these games is down. Georgetown liked the idea of academic peer institutions in the old big East (Notre Dame, BC), and there are none in the new 10-team arrangement.
The attendance issue is a result of the malaise called JTIII that infests your program. You've been irrelevant as a legitimate NCAA Tournament threat for a decade. Get out of the first weekend (hell, how about just winning an opening round game more than twice a decade?) regularly and perhaps you'll get a crew higher then the usual 6,500 to walk through the Verizon Center's doors.
Quote from: DFW HOYA on March 22, 2016, 06:05:09 AM
Adding these schools would be the sign for Georgetown and Villanova to find another home.
Where, exactly?
The Power 5 ain't exactly looking for small, private schools without football programs, you know.
And, seriously, what exactly has Georgetown done this century that allows you to look down your nose at a program like Gonzaga?
Quote from: DFW HOYA on March 22, 2016, 06:05:09 AM
Adding these schools would be the sign for Georgetown and Villanova to find another home.
There is already pushback in some quarters that schools like Creighton and DePaul are poor fits and attendance to these games is down. Georgetown liked the idea of academic peer institutions in the old big East (Notre Dame, BC), and there are none in the new 10-team arrangement.
Assuming that you did not choose ND and BC by chance, it seems you are defining peer institution as:
*Catholic
*Research powerhouse (R1/RUVH)
*High USWNR ranking
If so, then can you really fault the new BE for not having any Gtown peers? By that definition, ND and BC are the
only peers that Gtown has!
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on March 22, 2016, 08:57:56 AM
I don't think that is the case at all. I don't think the BE has any interest in schools where football could be a distraction
You can think that. But if UConn went Independent in football tomorrow, they would be in the Big East on Thursday.
Gonzaga perspective. Interesting seeing their read on St. Mary's vs Santa Clara and Loyola Marymount. I still think you'd add BYU before any of those (BYU is not getting into the Big XII or any major conference anytime soon).
http://guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?56786-Big-East-expansion
Athletes who get paid to play the game dread west coast road trips.
Can we at least pretend that D1 college hoops players are in college and that traveling coast-to-coast for an entire conference season is not in their best interest?
If not, can we at least find a booster to provide a team Airbus 380 that includes classrooms, living facilities and a small practice gym?
Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 22, 2016, 10:16:41 AM
You can think that. But if UConn went Independent in football tomorrow, they would be in the Big East on Thursday.
Well you can keep saying this. I don't think it's accurate.
Quote from: Badgerhater on March 22, 2016, 10:40:42 AM
Athletes who get paid to play the game dread west coast road trips.
Can we at least pretend that D1 college hoops players are in college and that traveling coast-to-coast for an entire conference season is not in their best interest?
If not, can we at least find a booster to provide a team Airbus 380 that includes classrooms, living facilities and a small practice gym?
Couldn't Gonzaga set up a remote athletes-only campus in Cleveland with an arena and practice facilities? Problem solved!
Quote from: Aughnanure on March 22, 2016, 10:31:04 AM
Gonzaga perspective. Interesting seeing their read on St. Mary's vs Santa Clara and Loyola Marymount. I still think you'd add BYU before any of those (BYU is not getting into the Big XII or any major conference anytime soon).
http://guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?56786-Big-East-expansion
Interesting idea one of them had about expanding to 16 and making four divisions of four. Round robin with your division and one game against every other team.
AtlanticProvidence
St. John's
Georgetown
Seton Hall
EastButler
Xavier
Villanova
Dayton
MidwestMarquette
Depaul
Creighton
St. Louis
WestGonzaga
St. Mary's
BYU
Denver/Loyola Marymount/San Diego (whatever West Coast team fits the best)
I actually really like this idea in theory. Unites all the major basketball only schools. Hits a lot of major media markets. Good competition, the only doormats added are St. Louis and whatever the last west coast team is (even the old 16 team BEast had Rutgers/South Florida so 3 doormats in a 16 team conference is not bad). I don't think it works because of TV money. I think our contract only allows for expansion to 12.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on March 22, 2016, 10:45:52 AM
Well you can keep saying this. I don't think it's accurate.
You can keep saying this. I know its not accurate.
Quote from: DFW HOYA on March 22, 2016, 06:05:09 AM
Adding these schools would be the sign for Georgetown and Villanova to find another home.
There is already pushback in some quarters that schools like Creighton and DePaul are poor fits and attendance to these games is down. Georgetown liked the idea of academic peer institutions in the old big East (Notre Dame, BC), and there are none in the new 10-team arrangement.
Sorry, cannot let you get away with this. The only people who think Gtown are not among their academic peers now are the east coast bred blue blood muppets who are the very reason the rest of us didn't go to Gtown.
Quote from: bilsu on March 21, 2016, 11:22:20 PM
That is your opinion. I do not give a damn that they are football schools. Two football schools, especially ones that the power 5 do not want, are not going to have any power over the Big East. I want the best basketball conference possible. These are far superior to some of the names being thrown out there.
Then get ready for those schools to bail the instant one of the P5 conferences looks to expand—and they will.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on March 22, 2016, 08:58:45 AM
Good think you are wearing a helmet in your profile pic, because the point just sailed above your head.
Busted. Serves me right for glancing at the posts instead of actually reading them.
Quote from: KenoshaWarrior on March 21, 2016, 04:01:41 PM
I would dread the 10pm starts of those west.coast games
They wouldn't be 10pm starts. Probably 8 pm central, 9 pm eastern (6 pm pacific)
Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 22, 2016, 10:49:17 AM
Interesting idea one of them had about expanding to 16 and making four divisions of four. Round robin with your division and one game against every other team.
Atlantic
Providence
St. John's
Georgetown
Seton Hall
East
Butler
Xavier
Villanova
Dayton
Midwest
Marquette
Depaul
Creighton
St. Louis
West
Gonzaga
St. Mary's
BYU
Denver/Loyola Marymount/San Diego (whatever West Coast team fits the best)
I actually really like this idea in theory. Unites all the major basketball only schools. Hits a lot of major media markets. Good competition, the only doormats added are St. Louis and whatever the last west coast team is (even the old 16 team BEast had Rutgers/South Florida so 3 doormats in a 16 team conference is not bad). I don't think it works because of TV money. I think our contract only allows for expansion to 12.
Hard pass. More is not always better.
If the BE feels the need to expand, they need to aim significiantly higher than SLU, Denver, etc.
Quote from: Aughnanure on March 22, 2016, 10:31:04 AM
Gonzaga perspective. Interesting seeing their read on St. Mary's vs Santa Clara and Loyola Marymount. I still think you'd add BYU before any of those (BYU is not getting into the Big XII or any major conference anytime soon).
http://guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?56786-Big-East-expansion
Interesting. Of course they are salivating. But exactly who in the existing 10 team conference votes for this?
Anybody in the Eastern timezone? nope
DePaul?
Marquette?
Creighton?
I'm not even sure Fox would like it. Is it really better to televise GTown at the Zags than any random west coast game you might put on? No one in Washington DC will stay up for that game on a Tuesday.
I must say that the 'loose affiliation' H/H non-con has some appeal. The Zags and St. Mary's could schedule two BEast opponents a year. In MU's case, that would have dramatically improved our dreaded RPI. I don't think flying west once every couple of years for a single game would be unreasonable. Last time, we hit ASU on our way out to the Cali tournament AND flew to Vegas for that game against New Mex. That gets MU a very nice partner without diluting the conference.
Quote from: jsglow on March 22, 2016, 11:06:34 AM
Interesting. Of course they are salivating. But exactly who in the existing 10 team conference votes for this?
Anybody in the Eastern timezone? nope
DePaul?
Marquette?
Creighton?
I'm not even sure Fox would like it. Is it really better to televise GTown at the Zags than any random west coast game you might put on? No one in Washington DC will stay up for that game on a Tuesday.
I must say that the 'loose affiliation' H/H non-con has some appeal. The Zags and St. Mary's could schedule two BEast opponents a year. In MU's case, that would have dramatically improved our dreaded RPI. I don't think flying west once every couple of years for a single game would be unreasonable. Last time, we hit ASU on our way out to the Cali tournament AND flew to Vegas for that game against New Mex. That gets MU a very nice partner without diluting the conference.
Big East-WCC Challenge?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 22, 2016, 11:04:34 AM
Hard pass. More is not always better.
If the BE feels the need to expand, they need to aim significiantly higher than SLU, Denver, etc.
Oh I'd hard pass it too. The money doesn't work out at all. But the college basketball fan in me would love to see all these major basketball first schools (and BYU) brought together.
you guys are all making this too complicated. There aren't enough quality teams to expand to 16 teams, much less 20.
Go to 12, adding St. Mary's and Gonzaga. No divisions, it is just not necessary. We didn't have divisions with a 16 team Big East, we certainly don't need it with a 12 team Big East.
18 game schedule. You play 7 teams twice, and 4 teams once. It rotates so that you play everyone twice within a span of a few years.
No need to make it any more complex than that.
If you HAD to push for 14, then I'd say Dayton and VCU would be the next logical choices. But I think it could work just fine with 12 with Gonzaga and St. Mary's
Quote from: Coleman on March 22, 2016, 11:04:15 AM
They wouldn't be 10pm starts. Probably 8 pm central, 9 pm eastern (6 pm pacific)
Nah, Fox would use it to create triple header nights and would want to play in primetime on the west coast (8pm). Likely they'd be 11pm ET games.
Quote from: Coleman on March 22, 2016, 11:10:47 AM
If you HAD to push for 14, then I'd say Dayton and VCU would be the next logical choices. But I think it could work just fine with 12 with Gonzaga and St. Mary's
VCU?! A public, research university with 25,000 students is the next logical choice to join the "small Catholic school" conference?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 22, 2016, 11:08:47 AM
Big East-WCC Challenge?
I'd need to look further. How far 'down the well' does one go in the WCC? They'd love it for sure.
Quote from: Coleman on March 22, 2016, 11:10:47 AM
you guys are all making this too complicated. There aren't enough quality teams to expand to 16 teams, much less 20.
Go to 12, adding St. Mary's and Gonzaga. No divisions, it is just not necessary. We didn't have divisions with a 16 team Big East, we certainly don't need it with a 12 team Big East.
18 game schedule. You play 7 teams twice, and 4 teams once. It rotates so that you play everyone twice within a span of a few years.
No need to make it any more complex than that.
If you HAD to push for 14, then I'd say Dayton and VCU would be the next logical choices. But I think it could work just fine with 12 with Gonzaga and St. Mary's
I'd be fine with adding Gonzaga and St. Mary's, but anything more waters it down.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 22, 2016, 11:17:08 AM
VCU?! A public, research university with 25,000 students is the next logical choice to join the "small Catholic school" conference?
If you had to push me for 2 more choices to get to 14, then yes. But did you even read the rest of my post? I said 12 would be fine.
And I care less about the public/state school vs. Catholic/private dynamic than the football vs. no football dynamic.
That is really all that matters.
And let's add one thing. The Spokane TV market is exactly 239 people. So that helps how?
Not to go down this path but good old mid-major SLU brings in all those damn Cardinal eyeballs. And I'm pretty sure that our east coast brothers really resisted their inclusion 3 years ago.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 22, 2016, 11:19:12 AM
I'd be fine with adding Gonzaga and St. Mary's, but anything more waters it down.
BYU
Quote from: jsglow on March 22, 2016, 11:28:01 AM
And let's add one thing. The Spokane TV market is exactly 239 people. So that helps how?
Not to go down this path but good old mid-major SLU brings in all those damn Cardinal eyeballs. And I'm pretty sure that our east coast brothers really resisted their inclusion 3 years ago.
My folks live in Washington and FWIW Gonzaga basketball fans are across the entire Pacific Northwest, not just Spokane proper.
And I'm not opposed to SLU but they would have to come with a really strong partner (like a Gonzaga). They haven't been able to maintain the success Majerus brought them.
Quote from: jsglow on March 22, 2016, 11:28:01 AM
And let's add one thing. The Spokane TV market is exactly 239 people. So that helps how?
Not to go down this path but good old mid-major SLU brings in all those damn Cardinal eyeballs. And I'm pretty sure that our east coast brothers really resisted their inclusion 3 years ago.
FWIW, the Spokane TV market is listed here as #75 in the US. Omaha is #76.
http://www.stationindex.com/tv/tv-markets
And I wouldn't be surprised if Gonzaga brought in the Seattle market too....
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 22, 2016, 11:35:33 AM
FWIW, the Spokane TV market is listed here as #75 in the US. Omaha is #76.
http://www.stationindex.com/tv/tv-markets
And I wouldn't be surprised if Gonzaga brought in the Seattle market too....
And also similar to Creighton in Omaha, Gonzaga is the only game in town. No professional sports or other major D1 schools.
And yes, Gonzaga brings in the Seattle Market, Walla Walla, Yakima, Columbia Valley, as well as northern Idaho. Their fanbase is huge and rabid. It really does remind me a lot of Creighton.
Quote from: jsglow on March 22, 2016, 11:28:01 AM
And let's add one thing. The Spokane TV market is exactly 239 people. So that helps how?
Not to go down this path but good old mid-major SLU brings in all those damn Cardinal eyeballs. And I'm pretty sure that our east coast brothers really resisted their inclusion 3 years ago.
They're a national brand. And don't they play a game or two in Seattle every year now? Spokane is the 2nd largest city in Washington and technically just the the 3rd or 4th largest city in that northwest area (Wash, Ore, Idaho, Mont). Boise is smaller city-wise but has a little more metro-wise. Spokane is 540,000 metro...so not nothing.
Quote from: Aughnanure on March 22, 2016, 11:39:47 AM
They're a national brand. And don't they play a game or two in Seattle every year now? Spokane is the 2nd largest city in Washington and technically just the the 3rd or 4th largest city in that northwest area (Wash, Ore, Idaho, Mont). Boise is smaller city-wise but has a little more metro-wise. Spokane is 540,000 metro...so not nothing.
Yes, they do play in Seattle every year, against a major non-conference opponent. It is called the Battle in Seattle. The games are well-attended and they definitely have a following in Seattle.
Quote from: Aughnanure on March 22, 2016, 11:34:46 AM
BYU
Just like UConn and Cinci, I'd take them the instant they dump football.
Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 22, 2016, 10:49:17 AM
Interesting idea one of them had about expanding to 16 and making four divisions of four. Round robin with your division and one game against every other team.
Atlantic
Providence
St. John's
Georgetown
Seton Hall
East
Butler
Xavier
Villanova
Dayton
Midwest
Marquette
Depaul
Creighton
St. Louis
West
Gonzaga
St. Mary's
BYU
Denver/Loyola Marymount/San Diego (whatever West Coast team fits the best)
I actually really like this idea in theory. Unites all the major basketball only schools. Hits a lot of major media markets. Good competition, the only doormats added are St. Louis and whatever the last west coast team is (even the old 16 team BEast had Rutgers/South Florida so 3 doormats in a 16 team conference is not bad). I don't think it works because of TV money. I think our contract only allows for expansion to 12.
I would especially see Nova give this a huge thumbs-down. BE member since 1982 (league's third year) doesn't get to play with the four originals from their geographic region?
It's simply too many teams and too farfetched, which you later agreed with in a comment.
As for those who claim Gonzaga only draws Spokane audience, that's ridiculous. Very popular all across the region and probably every bit as much a national basketball brand as Marquette, frankly. And I'm guessing Fox knows that and would be very happy to have them. If we could somehow make the logistics work, I'd love Gonzaga in the league.
Notre Dame, UConn and Cinci are the only others not currently in the league that I want, but that probably will never happen. BYU is interesting, especially if Gonzaga comes in, but seems unlikely.
Otherwise ... all of them ... blechhh. Every last one of them.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 22, 2016, 12:07:57 PM
Just like UConn and Cinci, I'd take them the instant they dump football.
They basically have. They're independent and really have no chance of getting into a P5 conference for a long time.
You guys are thinking too small. Go big or go home. 21 Teams. Call it the Blackjack Conference.
East
Nova
GU
PC
SHU
SJU
UConn
VCU
Midwest
Marq
Creighton
Butler
Derp
X
SMU
Cincy
Pacific
Zags
SMC
UNLV
SDSU
UNM
Utah State
Dayton or BYU
Obviously, the above assumes that some of these schools drop football completely (or to FCS), which right now is probably much more likely than your average sports fan thinks, even if the movement is still about a decade away (which, conveniently, happens to align with the expiration of the current FS1 contract).
Home & homes within division, and three from each of the other two divisions on a rotating basis.
Travel isn't that bad, actually. East/West teams alternate between two cross-country and one Midwest trips and one cross-country and two Midwest trips per year (very manageable). Midwest teams alternate between two east and one west, and one east and two west per year (not much different than what it is already).
Tourney would have to be worked out to throw the west coast teams some sort of bone. Perhaps every third or fourth year the tourney's held in Vegas or L.A. (and sublease the Garden in those years to the ACC or Big? for a couple million bucks).
If you want to go national, cover the whole damn country. If not, stick with what we've got.
Quote from: Benny B on March 22, 2016, 12:45:56 PM
You guys are thinking too small. Go big or go home. 21 Teams. Call it the Blackjack Conference.
East
Nova
GU
PC
SHU
SJU
UConn
VCU
Midwest
Marq
Creighton
Butler
Derp
X
SMU
Cincy
Pacific
Zags
SMC
UNLV
SDSU
UNM
Utah State
Dayton or BYU
Obviously, the above assumes that some of these schools drop football completely (or to FCS), which right now is probably much more likely than your average sports fan thinks, even if the movement is still about a decade away (which, conveniently, happens to align with the expiration of the current FS1 contract).
Home & homes within division, and three from each of the other two divisions on a rotating basis.
Travel isn't that bad, actually. East/West teams alternate between two cross-country and one Midwest trips per year and one cross-country and two Midwest trips (very manageable). Midwest teams alternate between two east and one west, and one east and two west every other year (not much different than what it is already).
Tourney would have to be worked out to throw the west coast teams some sort of bone. Perhaps every third or fourth year the tourney's held in Vegas or L.A. (and sublease the Garden in those years to the ACC or Big? for a couple million bucks).
If you want to go national, cover the whole damn country. If not, stick with what we've got.
I just don't know what to think on this proposal, but you did stick Dayton out west!
Quote from: Benny B on March 22, 2016, 12:45:56 PM
You guys are thinking too small. Go big or go home. 21 Teams. Call it the Blackjack Conference.
East
Nova
GU
PC
SHU
SJU
UConn
VCU
Midwest
Marq
Creighton
Butler
Derp
X
SMU
Cincy
Pacific
Zags
SMC
UNLV
SDSU
UNM
Utah State
Dayton or BYU
Obviously, the above assumes that some of these schools drop football completely (or to FCS), which right now is probably much more likely than your average sports fan thinks, even if the movement is still about a decade away (which, conveniently, happens to align with the expiration of the current FS1 contract).
Home & homes within division, and three from each of the other two divisions on a rotating basis.
Travel isn't that bad, actually. East/West teams alternate between two cross-country and one Midwest trips and one cross-country and two Midwest trips per year (very manageable). Midwest teams alternate between two east and one west, and one east and two west per year (not much different than what it is already).
Tourney would have to be worked out to throw the west coast teams some sort of bone. Perhaps every third or fourth year the tourney's held in Vegas or L.A. (and sublease the Garden in those years to the ACC or Big? for a couple million bucks).
If you want to go national, cover the whole damn country. If not, stick with what we've got.
You missed Temple and LaSalle.
And Fordham. Where on earth is Fordham?
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on March 22, 2016, 12:48:19 PM
I just don't know what to think on this proposal, but you did stick Dayton out west!
I figure that will be a solid selling point to the East and Midwest teams... not so much the West teams, but they're going to want in so desperately that I think we'll be able to push that one across.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 22, 2016, 11:17:08 AM
VCU?! A public, research university with 25,000 students is the next logical choice to join the "small Catholic school" conference?
Big East don't care. As long as you're a quality basketball first school with no/independent/fcs football, in a nice tv market, you can get in.
Unfortunately, not too many of those around. For the moment, I think were good at 10
The more I think about it, the more I don't think you need to bring St. Mary's, as long as Gonzaga is ok with being the only team out West.
Bring in Gonzaga and VCU. That would be a helluva conference.
Gonzaga home games can always have the late time slot (10 pm central) on FS1. Basically guarantee them FS1 coverage for most of their games, because of the time zone difference.
Yeah a travel partner would be nice but the Big East has the upper hand here, not Gonzaga.
Utah State? New Mexico? SMU? I swear, it's like some of us want to destroy the Big East again...
(https://media.giphy.com/media/4gi5nU2Yz5jvG/giphy.gif)
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 22, 2016, 11:08:47 AM
Big East-WCC Challenge?
This makes the most sense. Even if ALL of the west coast schools were dragged in on a rotating basis, it would help fill one of the cupcake slots in the schedule. And the low 100s-low 200s RPIs of the "other" WCC schools would be infinitely better than the 300+ RPIs we now schedule in non-con.
2015-2016 RPI
SMU-38
Zags- 45
BYU- 75
Pepperdine- 129
LMU- 224
SF- 227
Portland- 249
Santa Clara- 251
Pacific- 268
San Diego- 302
Who wouldn't trade Grambling for LMU in a heartbeat? Even if we had to play @ LMU one year, the exposure of playing in LA (or San Fran...SC and SF) would be worth it.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on March 22, 2016, 01:13:43 PM
This makes the most sense. Even if ALL of the west coast schools were dragged in on a rotating basis, it would help fill one of the cupcake slots in the schedule. And the low 100s-low 200s RPIs of the "other" WCC schools would be infinitely better than the 300+ RPIs we now schedule in non-con.
2015-2016 RPI
SMU-38
Zags- 45
BYU- 75
Pepperdine- 129
LMU- 224
SF- 227
Portland- 249
Santa Clara- 251
Pacific- 268
San Diego- 302
Who wouldn't trade Grambling for LMU in a heartbeat? Even if we had to play @ LMU one year, the exposure of playing in LA (or San Fran...SC and SF) would be worth it.
While I agree with this from a scheduling RPI perspective, my biggest issue with it is the perception it gives off...namely, that the Big East and WCC are equals. "Challenges" are generally reserved for conferences of equals...Big East vs. Big 10, Big 10 vs. ACC, etc.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on March 22, 2016, 12:48:19 PM
I just don't know what to think on this proposal, but you did stick Dayton out west!
The subtlety translates to hilarity. Subtlety in humor is like fine wine. Although, if I'm being honest I can't really taste the difference between fine wine and bottom-shelf-Serbian-liquor-store-on-51st-and-Oklahoma-Avenue wine.
Anyway, cheers Benny.
Quote from: Eldon on March 22, 2016, 09:51:07 AM
Assuming that you did not choose ND and BC by chance, it seems you are defining peer institution as:
*Catholic
*Research powerhouse (R1/RUVH)
*High USWNR ranking
If so, then can you really fault the new BE for not having any Gtown peers? By that definition, ND and BC are the only peers that Gtown has!
Georgetown's peers (per the school) are generally some combination of Penn, Duke, Brown, and Virginia, with ND, BC, and Wake Forest on a second tier after that. That's a reflection of the admissions pool right now. There are next to no kids choosing between GU and, say, Creighton.
Quote from: DFW HOYA on March 22, 2016, 11:22:23 PM
There are next to no kids choosing between GU and, say, Creighton.
....I did. Marquette and BC were on my list too. Got into all four, picked Marquette.
Quote from: DFW HOYA on March 22, 2016, 11:22:23 PM
Georgetown's peers (per the school) are generally some combination of Penn, Duke, Brown, and Virginia, with ND, BC, and Wake Forest on a second tier after that. That's a reflection of the admissions pool right now. There are next to no kids choosing between GU and, say, Creighton.
Wrong, try again with your last sentence...My 3 choices were between Illinois, Northwestern and Marquette. You're as arrogant as that Syracuse writer today.
Being a West Coast Conference Alum, I've wished the Big East would partner with the WCC to bolster each conference's early season scheduling. Most WCC teams tend to have to travel or play neutral sites, so an agreement could probably be worked out where Each team faces 3 (or however many) opponents from the other conference in a given season, the more than half of the games played in Big East sites. Both leagues also have 10 teams as well.
Quote from: DFW HOYA on March 22, 2016, 11:22:23 PM
Georgetown's peers (per the school) are generally some combination of Penn, Duke, Brown, and Virginia, with ND, BC, and Wake Forest on a second tier after that. That's a reflection of the admissions pool right now. There are next to no kids choosing between GU and, say, Creighton.
ND was ranked above GU in the last rankings lol Duke was wayyy higher than GU in the last ranking. GU is obviously a great school but right now you're like the Notre Dame grad that picks their nose to show you their class ring.
Why?
Quote from: SaveOD238 on March 22, 2016, 01:13:43 PM
This makes the most sense. Even if ALL of the west coast schools were dragged in on a rotating basis, it would help fill one of the cupcake slots in the schedule. And the low 100s-low 200s RPIs of the "other" WCC schools would be infinitely better than the 300+ RPIs we now schedule in non-con.
2015-2016 RPI
SMU-38
Zags- 45
BYU- 75
Pepperdine- 129
LMU- 224
SF- 227
Portland- 249
Santa Clara- 251
Pacific- 268
San Diego- 302
Who wouldn't trade Grambling for LMU in a heartbeat? Even if we had to play @ LMU one year, the exposure of playing in LA (or San Fran...SC and SF) would be worth it.
Based on the above, add:
SMU-38
Zags- 45
BYU- 75
Pepperdine- 129
and maybe get the other SMU (RPI-15)
Make them the west division or throw Creighton out west.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on March 22, 2016, 11:52:10 PM
ND was ranked above GU in the last rankings lol Duke was wayyy higher than GU in the last ranking. GU is obviously a great school but right now you're like the Notre Dame grad that picks their nose to show you their class ring.
Agree completely. And in the new reality of the conference landscape, it's about survival. You bring in he who fortifies you. Like a game of the old 80s-90s arcade classic Sinistar. The giant skull of the Power 5 is constantly floating around threatening our little ship, while we navigate the asteroid belt of pro-power5 ESPN, biased media in general, NCAA tournament refs favoring Sinistar, etc. If a program has an excellent basketball tradition with solid academic credentials, and can help our tiny (but shiny and strong) BigEast ship sail through the minefield unharmed....who gives a flying F if they match Gtown's hoity-toity academic profile????!!!!!
When that effin giant skull started attacking me, I got pissed. When it started doing its Syracuse dance and flew at me screaming "I LIVE", I wanted to blow the living sh!t out of it. Right now, that skull is growing, and this all-ACC Sweet 16 is sickening me. If we can get better,let's do it! Gonzaga makes us better, and their academics are pretty solid.
Since they don't play football any more, we should add ND.
Quote from: DFW HOYA on March 22, 2016, 11:22:23 PM
Georgetown's peers (per the school) are generally some combination of Penn, Duke, Brown, and Virginia, with ND, BC, and Wake Forest on a second tier after that. That's a reflection of the admissions pool right now. There are next to no kids choosing between GU and, say, Creighton.
I'd say their peers are more like George Washington, Northeastern, Boston College, NYU.
All great schools. But not Ivy. Keep dreaming Hoya.
Quote from: DFW HOYA on March 22, 2016, 11:22:23 PM
Georgetown's peers (per the school) are generally some combination of Penn, Duke, Brown, and Virginia, with ND, BC, and Wake Forest on a second tier after that. That's a reflection of the admissions pool right now. There are next to no kids choosing between GU and, say, Creighton.
And Wisconsin-Madison's peers are Harvard and Yale. ;)
Quote from: DFW HOYA on March 22, 2016, 11:22:23 PM
Georgetown's peers (per the school) are generally some combination of Penn, Duke, Brown, and Virginia, with ND, BC, and Wake Forest on a second tier after that. That's a reflection of the admissions pool right now. There are next to no kids choosing between GU and, say, Creighton.
Still failing to grasp what this has to do with basketball conferences.
Quote from: DFW HOYA on March 22, 2016, 11:22:23 PM
Georgetown's peers (per the school) are generally some combination of Penn, Duke, Brown, and Virginia, with ND, BC, and Wake Forest on a second tier after that. That's a reflection of the admissions pool right now. There are next to no kids choosing between GU and, say, Creighton.
Fair enough. I would argue that university presidents, who are typically former academics, likely judge their peer institutions by research/grad programs, not undergrad pool. But then I would be arguing for the sake of arguing. I digress.
So I have a question: Was Georgetown crying out in the wilderness about lack of peers in the old Big East? Who were your peers? BC and ND...and Syracuse on a third tier after that? Surely you don't consider Pitt, Rutgers, and UConn your academic peers (undergrad pool) if you are lumping yourself in with the likes of Penn, Duke, etc.
Academically (undergrad pool), the new BE is probably on par with the old BE (e.g., lost ND, but also lost WVU). A Gonzaga and St. Mary's addition wouldn't change that.
Lately GT basketball has looked a lot like Penn, Brown and Princeton. Maybe that's what he meant.
I'm not going to comment on who Georgetown thinks are its academic peers.
I just don't get DFW HOYA's comments about DePaul and Creighton and why that matters. My guess is that in every conference you see this. How many Wisconsin applicants also apply to Rutgers and Maryland? Even in primarily private school conferences, I doubt this is much of an issue.
Georgetown, like Marquette, is in the best conference it can be in at this point in time given the landscape of college athletics. Very likely the landscape will change someday. (It always has.) And I'm not necessarily talking in the next five years, but 10 or 20. Maybe you will see more conference adapt non-football members. Maybe schools will drop football and cause a reshuffling. Maybe one of the P5 blows up causing another reshuffle.
This is the bottom line for me on the Big East and expansion.
1. The Big East is a good conference. It is the best non-football conference in college basketball.
2. There is no reason to expand right now. All the obvious candidates are either geographic outliers (Zags), the wrong type of school (VCU) or just aren't good enough (SLU). Unless Fox steps up to make their contract more lucrative, it just isn't necessary.
3. Sitting and waiting may be the best strategy due to what I said above. If a school like Wake Forest or UConn decide to drop football in 10-15 years, I would love for them to be part of the BE. Adding mediocre programs for the sake of doing so isn't smart.
Quote from: Eldon on March 23, 2016, 09:06:25 AM
Fair enough. I would argue that university presidents, who are typically former academics, likely judge their peer institutions by research/grad programs, not undergrad pool. But then I would be arguing for the sake of arguing. I digress.
So I have a question: Was Georgetown crying out in the wilderness about lack of peers in the old Big East? Who were your peers? BC and ND...and Syracuse on a third tier after that? Surely you don't consider Pitt, Rutgers, and UConn your academic peers (undergrad pool) if you are lumping yourself in with the likes of Penn, Duke, etc.
Oooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhh
SNAP!
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 23, 2016, 09:08:44 AM
Lately GT basketball has looked a lot like Penn, Brown and Princeton. Maybe that's what he meant.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/d2Z94dXSLXbjT1aU/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 23, 2016, 09:08:44 AM
Lately GT basketball has looked a lot like Penn, Brown and Princeton. Maybe that's what he meant.
(https://media.riffsy.com/images/67993b95e090778b512b9a5446d02f5c/raw)
Quote from: Eldon on March 23, 2016, 09:29:15 AM
(https://media.riffsy.com/images/67993b95e090778b512b9a5446d02f5c/raw)
Careful. Where has MU been the past three years???
Quote from: Groin_pull on March 23, 2016, 09:50:23 AM
Careful. Where has MU been the past three years???
In the classroom. Because, you know, academic standards and all that blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.
(http://dvdmedia.ign.com/dvd/image/GTB5_1100892459.jpg)
https://www.youtube.com/e/7-rroGskFnE
Quote from: DFW HOYA on March 22, 2016, 11:22:23 PM
Georgetown's peers (per the school) are generally some combination of Penn, Duke, Brown, and Virginia, with ND, BC, and Wake Forest on a second tier after that. That's a reflection of the admissions pool right now. There are next to no kids choosing between GU and, say, Creighton.
DFW, you are confusing two categories schools use.
Penn, Duke, Brown are GT's aspirational schools.
Virginia, ND, BC and Wake are their peer institutions.
Quote from: forgetful on March 23, 2016, 10:58:31 AM
DFW, you are confusing two categories schools use.
Penn, Duke, Brown are GT's aspirational schools.
Virginia, ND, BC and Wake are their peer institutions.
I'd say Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Rice, Duke, ND, Johns Hopkins, Northeastern, Wash U, Wake Forest, BC are all peers. It's makes more sense that they'd associate more with the other private schools that are outside the Ivy (and Stanford). They do not consider GW a peer at all however (rich school that overrated because of how expensive it is and the wealth of the families that attend) .
The Ivy is hard to quantify because the name "Ivy" carries so much weight regardless, but there is a clear divide of the perception of the schools after Yale-Princeton--Harvard and then after Columbia-Penn.
Quote from: Aughnanure on March 23, 2016, 11:13:36 AM
I'd say Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Rice, Duke, ND, Johns Hopkins, Northeastern, Wash U, Wake Forest, BC are all peers. It's makes more sense that they'd associate more with the other private schools that are outside the Ivy (and Stanford). They do not consider GW a peer at all however (rich school that overrated because of how expensive it is and the wealth of the families that attend) .
The Ivy is hard to quantify because the name "Ivy" carries so much weight regardless, but there is a clear divide of the perception of the schools after Yale-Princeton--Harvard and then after Columbia-Penn.
Take out Duke and Vanderbilt then we're in agreement
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on March 23, 2016, 11:33:32 AM
Take out Duke and Vanderbilt then we're in agreement
Agree. I'd also take out John Hopkins, because it is a different type of University really.
Quote from: forgetful on March 23, 2016, 11:45:53 AM
Agree. I'd also take out John Hopkins, because it is a different type of University really.
Don't know much about them beyond their Lax team but I'll agree with you.
Quote from: DFW HOYA on March 22, 2016, 11:22:23 PM
Georgetown's peers (per the school) are generally some combination of Penn, Duke, Brown, and Virginia, with ND, BC, and Wake Forest on a second tier after that. That's a reflection of the admissions pool right now. There are next to no kids choosing between GU and, say, Creighton.
I am writing as a member of the Georgetown family...
Georgetown and UVA are not in the same category as Penn, Duke, Brown. They are not.
Georgetown compares favorably with UVA, ND, and BC but will never comp with any Ivy or Little Ivy.
I was accepted into GU but chose MU. I have zero regrets.
Quote from: Aughnanure on March 23, 2016, 11:13:36 AM
I'd say Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Rice, Duke, ND, Johns Hopkins, Northeastern, Wash U, Wake Forest, BC are all peers. It's makes more sense that they'd associate more with the other private schools that are outside the Ivy (and Stanford). They do not consider GW a peer at all however (rich school that overrated because of how expensive it is and the wealth of the families that attend).
Northeastern? Wake Forest?? Please. They have no business being mentioned in the same sentence as NU, Vandy, Duke, Washington U, and Johns Hopkins.
You mention GW but i assume you meant Georgetown. In the NCR there is Georgetown and then there is everyone else. On the east coast GW isn't a player.
Quote from: forgetful on March 23, 2016, 11:45:53 AM
Agree. I'd also take out John Hopkins, because it is a different type of University really.
What did John Hopkins do that you want to take him out??
Quote from: keefe on March 23, 2016, 12:58:12 PM
What did John Hopkins do that you want to take him out??
Isn't he the guy who hit the game winning shot for Duke against UK years ago?
#ihatejohnhopkins
It's Johns Hopkins, boys.
Notre Dame announced yesterday that they are joining the Big 10 conference for hockey. They're independent for football, so maybe they could join the Big East for Basketball. May as well get your hands into as many conferences as you can!
Quote from: MomofMUltiples on March 23, 2016, 01:43:42 PM
It's Johns Hopkins, boys.
I think you missed the implied teal.
Quote from: MomofMUltiples on March 23, 2016, 01:43:42 PM
It's Johns Hopkins, boys.
Notre Dame announced yesterday that they are joining the Big 10 conference for hockey. They're independent for football, so maybe they could join the Big East for Basketball. May as well get your hands into as many conferences as you can!
John Hopkins is $39,000 per year Prep High School here in New Haven.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on March 23, 2016, 02:19:14 PM
John Hopkins is $39,000 per year Prep High School here in New Haven.
How much more for the 's'?
Quote from: keefe on March 23, 2016, 02:48:26 PM
How much more for the 's'?
$2000, but they call it a "student activity fee."
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 23, 2016, 02:51:51 PM
$2000, but they call it a "student activity fee."
Does that include a guarantee that the campus will be a comfortable and safe place?
Quote from: keefe on March 23, 2016, 12:57:17 PM
Northeastern? Wake Forest?? Please. They have no business being mentioned in the same sentence as NU, Vandy, Duke, Washington U, and Johns Hopkins.
You mention GW but i assume you meant Georgetown. In the NCR there is Georgetown and then there is everyone else. On the east coast GW isn't a player.
Jesus, yes they certainly do. And GW was referring to George Washington. Georgetown does not see GW as a peer.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 23, 2016, 02:51:51 PM
$2000, but they call it a "student activity fee."
(https://media.giphy.com/media/lExXm1vSE7zb2/giphy.gif)
Quote from: Aughnanure on March 23, 2016, 03:26:02 PM
Jesus, yes they certainly do. And GW was referring to George Washington. Georgetown does not see GW as a peer.
That's a matter of opinion. Northeastern and Wake are nowhere near the reputation of Northwestern, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Washington U, or Vandy. And it's not even close.
Wake is the third best school in the Triangle and has a regional cachet that doesn't travel well.
In the Boston area, Northeastern is looking up at Harvard, MIT, Tufts, BU, BC, Babson, Smith, Wellesley, Amherst, Williams, and Brandeis.
Here is the acid test: students gather in Grendel's in Cambridge. The only person among those schools listed NOT wearing his college sweatshirt is the guy from Northeastern. For a reason.
When I see Vandy, Duke, NU, Washington U, or Johns Hopkins on a CV I give it a hard look because those schools mean something. I don't do the same for a Northeastern, Wake, or GW grad.
Quote from: MomofMUltiples on March 23, 2016, 01:43:42 PM
It's Johns Hopkins
He paid the $2,000 Student Activity Fee?
Quote from: keefe on March 23, 2016, 03:38:48 PM
That's a matter of opinion. Northeastern and Wake are nowhere near the reputation of Northwestern, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Washington U, or Vandy. And it's not even close.
Wake is the third best school in the Triangle and has a regional cachet that doesn't travel well.
In the Boston area, Northeastern is looking up at Harvard, MIT, Tufts, BU, BC, Babson, Smith, Wellesley, Amherst, Williams, and Brandeis.
Here is the acid test: students gather in Grendel's in Cambridge. The only person among those schools listed NOT wearing his college sweatshirt is the guy from Northeastern. For a reason.
When I see Vandy, Duke, NU, Washington U, or Johns Hopkins on a CV I give it a hard look because those schools mean something. I don't do the same for a Northeastern, Wake, or GW grad.
Ugh, you're one of those.
Also, no one outside New England/Upper Northeast even recognizes Babson, Smith, Williams....some will recognize Amherst and Brandeis but jeez. Also, its not about who you're "looking up to" in your area. No college aspires to be a school that compares itself only locally. These schools are all pretty close, we're not trying to create a perfect f***ing hierarchy here.
Quote from: keefe on March 23, 2016, 03:38:48 PM
Here is the acid test: students gather in Grendel's in Cambridge. The only person among those schools listed NOT wearing his college sweatshirt is the guy from Northeastern. For a reason.
He has a sense of style?
So on my CV I should put "Accepted into Wash U, but Attended Marquette 1993-1997, BSEE"
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 23, 2016, 03:56:37 PM
So on my CV I should put "Accepted into Wash U, but Attended Marquette 1993-1997, BSEE"
So does "MIT wait listed, but attended...." work as well?
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 23, 2016, 03:56:37 PM
So on my CV I should put "Accepted into Wash U, but Attended Marquette 1993-1997, BSEE"
Quote from: mu03eng on March 23, 2016, 03:59:18 PM
So does "MIT wait listed, but attended...." work as well?
As long as you aren't one of those louts who would wear his garish gold Marquette sweatshirt at Grendel's in Cambridge, you're good.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 23, 2016, 03:54:56 PM
He has a sense of style?
To the hoop with authority!
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on March 23, 2016, 04:01:54 PM
As long as you aren't one of those louts who would wear his garish gold Marquette sweatshirt at Grendel's in Cambridge, you're good.
Never! I'm very polite in my gold Marquette Warriors t-shirt.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 23, 2016, 03:54:56 PM
He has a sense of style?
Northeastern dudes arriving at Grendel's
(http://www.chicagonow.com/open-heart/files/2014/01/sweaterneck-3.jpg)
Quote from: forgetful on March 23, 2016, 10:58:31 AM
DFW, you are confusing two categories schools use.
Penn, Duke, Brown are GT's aspirational schools.
Virginia, ND, BC and Wake are their peer institutions.
Agree to disagree. When it comes to admissions, Georgetown wins more than it loses with students applying to GU and Duke, or GU and Penn, and splits with Brown. Obviously, majors have a lot to do with it. If you want to be an engineer at Duke you aren't applying to Georgetown, and if you're applying foreign service at Georgetown, Duke isn't in the discussion. GU comes up short against the likes of Princeton and Northwestern.
Outside of Georgetown, it's a great topic for Big East schools: where do these schools aim to be? Villanova fans chafe at being called a "regional" school but it lacks the investment in graduate school programs. MU and Creighton are a little underrated as national schools while X and PC seem content to being locally focused schools. On the flip side, St. John's and Seton Hall are going in the direction of being less prestigious. Nearly 80% of applicants get into Seton Hall today.
Quote from: Aughnanure on March 23, 2016, 03:52:32 PM
Ugh, you're one of those.
Also, no one outside New England/Upper Northeast even recognizes Babson, Smith, Williams....
I disagree. I think most discerning individuals know all three.
I will grant you that a majority of people in the US have likely never heard of Smith, Williams, Amherst, Johns Hopkins, Bates, Bowdoin, Tufts, etc...
But senior executives and key decision makers recognize educational and professional credentials like neon signs.
One kid went to Wazzou and another went to Middlebury. 99% of the people would recognize my WSU t-shirt. In Bellevue most would recognize a Middlebury sweat shirt; in Everett not so much.
I agree that small elite colleges might not be familiar to most but they are to those who need to know.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 23, 2016, 03:56:37 PM
So on my CV I should put "Accepted into Wash U, but Attended Marquette 1993-1997, BSEE"
I am surprised you have not cashed in that chip.
I endorse your choice of Marquette, by the way. The opportunity to hear KO unleash a torrent of vile language was worth the price of admission.
Quote from: DFW HOYA on March 23, 2016, 06:12:12 PM
Seton Hall...going in the direction of being less prestigious. Nearly 80% of applicants get into Seton Hall today.
I think the admission of one Tony Soprano more than reversed that slide in exclusivity.
Quote from: DFW HOYA on March 23, 2016, 06:12:12 PM
Agree to disagree. When it comes to admissions, Georgetown wins more than it loses with students applying to GU and Duke, or GU and Penn, and splits with Brown. Obviously, majors have a lot to do with it. If you want to be an engineer at Duke you aren't applying to Georgetown, and if you're applying foreign service at Georgetown, Duke isn't in the discussion. GU comes up short against the likes of Princeton and Northwestern.
Outside of Georgetown, it's a great topic for Big East schools: where do these schools aim to be? Villanova fans chafe at being called a "regional" school but it lacks the investment in graduate school programs. MU and Creighton are a little underrated as national schools while X and PC seem content to being locally focused schools. On the flip side, St. John's and Seton Hall are going in the direction of being less prestigious. Nearly 80% of applicants get into Seton Hall today.
Creighton isn't listed as a national school. http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/creighton-university-2542
The national schools are GU, MU, SJU, DU, SHU.
Completely agree about Northeastern. They don't belong anywhere in this thread. They are the poster child of why USWNR rankings should not be the sole metric of prestige (and neither should acceptance rate, Mr. DFW).
Recently Northeastern was ranked one spot below Boston University. Anyone who knows colleges would know that Northeastern's Top 50-ranking-right-next-to-Boston-University is an absolute travesty. BU smokes Northeastern every day of the week, twice on Sunday, three times in all 50 states, four times in leap years. Apples-to-apples? Not even close. Apples-to-oranges? Still no. Apples-to-ceiling fans? Yeah, that's about right--there's no comparison.
USWNR ranks schools based in input, e.g., HS GPA, SAT/ACT, Class rank, etc. I once saw a ranking based on output measures. BU stayed pretty high, Northeastern fell precipitously.
Quote from: Eldon on March 23, 2016, 06:57:56 PM
Completely agree about Northeastern. They don't belong anywhere in this thread. They are the poster child of why USWNR rankings should not be the sole metric of prestige (and neither should acceptance rate, Mr. DFW).
Recently Northeastern was ranked one spot below Boston University. Anyone who knows colleges would know that Northeastern's Top 50-ranking-right-next-to-Boston-University is an absolute travesty. BU smokes Northeastern every day of the week, twice on Sunday, three times in all 50 states, four times in leap years. Apples-to-apples? Not even close. Apples-to-oranges? Still no. Apples-to-ceiling fans? Yeah, that's about right--there's no comparison.
USWNR ranks schools based in input, e.g., HS GPA, SAT/ACT, Class rank, etc. I once saw a ranking based on output measures. BU stayed pretty high, Northeastern fell precipitously.
Northeastern has been gaming the rankings for years. They've even admitted doing so.
Quote from: DFW HOYA on March 23, 2016, 06:12:12 PM
Agree to disagree. When it comes to admissions, Georgetown wins more than it loses with students applying to GU and Duke, or GU and Penn, and splits with Brown. Obviously, majors have a lot to do with it. If you want to be an engineer at Duke you aren't applying to Georgetown, and if you're applying foreign service at Georgetown, Duke isn't in the discussion. GU comes up short against the likes of Princeton and Northwestern.
Outside of Georgetown, it's a great topic for Big East schools: where do these schools aim to be? Villanova fans chafe at being called a "regional" school but it lacks the investment in graduate school programs. MU and Creighton are a little underrated as national schools while X and PC seem content to being locally focused schools. On the flip side, St. John's and Seton Hall are going in the direction of being less prestigious. Nearly 80% of applicants get into Seton Hall today.
A logically true statement but a bit pragmatically infelicitous, i.e., some may read into your statement that Nova can't invest in graduate programs because it is short on resources. Nova's lack of graduate programs is the result of choice, not a manifestation of resources being a binding constraint.
Most of Nova's admin, BOT, faculty, etc., are perfectly happy with its niche, which caters to the "I want the benefits of small class sizes, but I also don't want to feel like I'm in high school 2.0" crowd. Nova is kind of a middle ground between a research university and a true liberal arts college. There are about 7-8k students--not too big, not too small. Professors publish in respectable academic journals, yet at the same time are expected to make time for students. Nova does a good job catering to its target IMO, at the cost of a few alums lamenting that they cannot technically call their alma mater a "national university."
As I see it, PC and X are the Providence and Cincinnati versions of Nova.
^And Creighton is the Omaha version
Quote from: real chili 83 on March 23, 2016, 04:52:31 AMSince they don't play football any more, we should add ND.
Bravo. Laughed out loud reading this.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on March 23, 2016, 09:19:36 AM
I'm not going to comment on who Georgetown thinks are its academic peers.
I just don't get DFW HOYA's comments about DePaul and Creighton and why that matters. My guess is that in every conference you see this. How many Wisconsin applicants also apply to Rutgers and Maryland? Even in primarily private school conferences, I doubt this is much of an issue.
Georgetown, like Marquette, is in the best conference it can be in at this point in time given the landscape of college athletics. Very likely the landscape will change someday. (It always has.) And I'm not necessarily talking in the next five years, but 10 or 20. Maybe you will see more conference adapt non-football members. Maybe schools will drop football and cause a reshuffling. Maybe one of the P5 blows up causing another reshuffle.
This is the bottom line for me on the Big East and expansion.
1. The Big East is a good conference. It is the best non-football conference in college basketball.
2. There is no reason to expand right now. All the obvious candidates are either geographic outliers (Zags), the wrong type of school (VCU) or just aren't good enough (SLU). Unless Fox steps up to make their contract more lucrative, it just isn't necessary.
3. Sitting and waiting may be the best strategy due to what I said above. If a school like Wake Forest or UConn decide to drop football in 10-15 years, I would love for them to be part of the BE. Adding mediocre programs for the sake of doing so isn't smart.
Perfectly stated, Sultan.
Quote from: MU82 on March 23, 2016, 07:51:21 PM
Perfectly stated, Sultan.
Agree completely. It's still fun to speculate wildly for no good reason.
I had posted a couple visual looks at what conference realignment might look like without really stating my opinion.
The BEast should not expand until it is absolutely necessary.
Gonzaga would be a great fit except for its location.
UCONN is trying to get into a power five conference (as is Cincy).
BYU thinks it is the "ND of the west".
Dayton would love to join but I wouldn't pursue them at this time.
Quote from: DFW HOYA on March 23, 2016, 06:12:12 PM
When it comes to admissions, Georgetown wins more than it loses with students applying to GU and Duke, or GU and Penn, and splits with Brown. Obviously, majors have a lot to do with it. If you want to be an engineer at Duke you aren't applying to Georgetown, and if you're applying foreign service at Georgetown, Duke isn't in the discussion. GU comes up short against the likes of Princeton and Northwestern.
Your logic is rather obtuse. But let me guess: GU wins more than it loses against Duke and Penn because they get into GU and are rejected by Duke and Penn?
One of the most silly degree programs in the world is Georgetown's School of Foreign Service. The program doesn't really prepare one for anything.
Having lived all over the world I have interacted with FSOs of every stripe. Some of them are exceptional, the majority of them are pigs on the dole. What a complete waste of our tax dollars.
Quote from: VegasWarrior77 on March 24, 2016, 11:15:39 AM
I had posted a couple visual looks at what conference realignment might look like without really stating my opinion.
The BEast should not expand until it is absolutely necessary.
Gonzaga would be a great fit except for its location.
UCONN is trying to get into a power five conference (as is Cincy).
BYU thinks it is the "ND of the west".
Dayton would love to join but I wouldn't pursue them at this time.
The current 10 team conference is nice and I would not mind staying with that. However, the general perception would be that we lower than the power 5. I would only expand, if we were adding teams that had a good chance to make the NCAA tournament on a regular basis. I do not care about fit. Adding St. Louis, because they fit the Catholic seven profile just makes us more mid-major. That is why I like schools like Dayton, Cincinnati, UConn, Gonzaga or even Wichita St. We got 5 bids this year, which is 50%. We should not add teams that is likely to result in us getting less than half the teams in the NCAA tournament.
Quote from: DFW HOYA on March 23, 2016, 06:12:12 PM
Agree to disagree. When it comes to admissions, Georgetown wins more than it loses with students applying to GU and Duke, or GU and Penn, and splits with Brown. Obviously, majors have a lot to do with it. If you want to be an engineer at Duke you aren't applying to Georgetown, and if you're applying foreign service at Georgetown, Duke isn't in the discussion. GU comes up short against the likes of Princeton and Northwestern.
Outside of Georgetown, it's a great topic for Big East schools: where do these schools aim to be? Villanova fans chafe at being called a "regional" school but it lacks the investment in graduate school programs. MU and Creighton are a little underrated as national schools while X and PC seem content to being locally focused schools. On the flip side, St. John's and Seton Hall are going in the direction of being less prestigious. Nearly 80% of applicants get into Seton Hall today.
That's the problem for Georgetown, they are very respected in a couple areas, but as an overall University does not compare to Duke, Brown, Penn.
If we focus on specific programs we can argue that Carnegie Mellon (#1 in Computer Science and high in economics), is comparable to MIT and Cal Tech. Or University of Akron (largest Polymer Science program in the world) is competitive and comparable to MIT and Harvard. That of course is disingenuous as it focuses on specific majors and extends it broadly.
Georgetown is not strong in the sciences or engineering, unfortunately, Duke, Brown, Penn are very respected there (less for Brown), whereas Duke, Brown, Penn are still competitive across all departments.
Universities often (when self designating peer institutions) focus on their strength and not the overall breadth of the University. Georgetown is a great school, but if a person with all the same qualifications applies for a job with me in the sciences from Georgetown or Butler, I'm hiring the person from Butler.
Big East will expand before its contract with Fox expires. I'm almost 100% certain of this. We don't have to expand this second however. There are many reasons why it is good for the BEast to bide its time.
1. There are basketball first schools with football programs who are bleeding money. They've been treading water praying that they will one day get invited to a power 5 conference with their lucrative TV deals, but schools can't hold out forever. UConn, the poster child for this, is losing $20 million a year on football. Eventually, these schools will either need to get the invite they've been praying for, or drop football (or downgrade to fcs). Some scoff at this. We haven't had a FBS football program drop since the Ivies did it in the 80s I think. UAB was going to do it, and then got cold feet. It's scary to be the first one to do something. Eventually one of these schools will and more and more schools will follow their lead. When these schools drop their football, they will be looking for new homes.
2. Realignment will happen again. It always does. The Big 10 will raid the ACC. The Big 12 and SEC might join them and take a few ACC teams of their own. The ACC will react by raiding the AAC, the AAC will raid Conference USA.....and so on and so forth. First of all, I'm not convinced UCONN gets picked up by the ACC in next round of realignment. I don't think they are the shoe-in they think they are. Second of all, when the ACC of the future looks like the AAC of today, they will not be making the same TV money they are now. A lot of the schools left behind the ACC, the Boston Colleges and Wake Forests of the world will go from making money to losing money on football. Notre Dame may no longer wish to affiliate with a weakened ACC and go back to being a true independent. These are all teams that could be potentially brought into the fold.
3. Years ago, you would have never imagined Butler or Creighton being added to the Big East, yet here they are. The next generation of Butlers and Creightons are out there. The key is finding basketball first schools with healthy endowments who are willing to make investments in their basketball programs. The University of Denver sucks at basketball. But they have a very large endowment and have shown a willingness to invest in winning sports programs. They are dominant in hockey, lax, and soccer. With the possibility of a future Big East invite, they might be willing to make investments in their basketball program and get it to a point where it can compete in the Big East. Maybe a school like UMass or Boston U can be convinced to make the same kinds of investments. They may seem like terrible adds now but give them some time and they might develop into strong additions. Key is finding schools willing to invest (the opposite of Depaul).
4. The teams that we are kicking around now, Dayton, SLU, Gonzaga, St. Mary's, BYU, etc. They will all still be available and begging to get in (maybe BYU isn't begging) to the Big East from now until the end of time. If none of the above scenarios come to pass, we can still get them later.
College athletics will look very different 10 years from now. The BEast has put themselves in a position to be takers instead of taken. No sense in rushing into anything now.
Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 24, 2016, 01:20:49 PM
Big East will expand before its contract with Fox expires. I'm almost 100% certain of this. We don't have to expand this second however. There are many reasons why it is good for the BEast to bide its time.
1. There are basketball first schools with football programs who are bleeding money. They've been treading water praying that they will one day get invited to a power 5 conference with their lucrative TV deals, but schools can't hold out forever. UConn, the poster child for this, is losing $20 million a year on football. Eventually, these schools will either need to get the invite they've been praying for, or drop football (or downgrade to fcs). Some scoff at this. We haven't had a FBS football program drop since the Ivies did it in the 80s I think. UAB was going to do it, and then got cold feet. It's scary to be the first one to do something. Eventually one of these schools will and more and more schools will follow their lead. When these schools drop their football, they will be looking for new homes.
2. Realignment will happen again. It always does. The Big 10 will raid the ACC. The Big 12 and SEC might join them and take a few ACC teams of their own. The ACC will react by raiding the AAC, the AAC will raid Conference USA.....and so on and so forth. First of all, I'm not convinced UCONN gets picked up by the ACC in next round of realignment. I don't think they are the shoe-in they think they are. Second of all, when the ACC of the future looks like the AAC of today, they will not be making the same TV money they are now. A lot of the schools left behind the ACC, the Boston Colleges and Wake Forests of the world will go from making money to losing money on football. Notre Dame may no longer wish to affiliate with a weakened ACC and go back to being a true independent. These are all teams that could be potentially brought into the fold.
3. Years ago, you would have never imagined Butler or Creighton being added to the Big East, yet here they are. The next generation of Butlers and Creightons are out there. The key is finding basketball first schools with healthy endowments who are willing to make investments in their basketball programs. The University of Denver sucks at basketball. But they have a very large endowment and have shown a willingness to invest in winning sports programs. They are dominant in hockey, lax, and soccer. With the possibility of a future Big East invite, they might be willing to make investments in their basketball program and get it to a point where it can compete in the Big East. Maybe a school like UMass or Boston U can be convinced to make the same kinds of investments. They may seem like terrible adds now but give them some time and they might develop into strong additions. Key is finding schools willing to invest (the opposite of Depaul).
4. The teams that we are kicking around now, Dayton, SLU, Gonzaga, St. Mary's, BYU, etc. They will all still be available and begging to get in (maybe BYU isn't begging) to the Big East from now until the end of time. If none of the above scenarios come to pass, we can still get them later.
College athletics will look very different 10 years from now. The BEast has put themselves in a position to be takers instead of taken. No sense in rushing into anything now.
Good post.
One of the strengths of the current Big East is that it is a bunch of similar schools that all want to be there. None of them have any desire to go anywhere else. That has not always been the case with these schools. Creighton was dying to get out of the Valley for years. Butler has to be thrilled with where it is. Could they have even imagined it ten years ago? Xavier is in probably the best conference it ever has been.
So when you talk about the domino effect of conferences raiding each other, who is going to raid the Big East, and who wants to leave? Right now, it is the best non-football conference out there and it is concentrating on men's basketball. Maybe the league expands eventually. I am not at all sure. The schools and the commissioner seem perfectly happy at ten, and it does not seem that Fox is putting any pressure on them. I see no need to expand just to expand, and some of the ideas getting thrown around are pretty crazy. It's not broke. Don't fix it.
Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 24, 2016, 01:20:49 PM
Big East will expand before its contract with Fox expires. I'm almost 100% certain of this. We don't have to expand this second however. There are many reasons why it is good for the BEast to bide its time.
1. There are basketball first schools with football programs who are bleeding money. They've been treading water praying that they will one day get invited to a power 5 conference with their lucrative TV deals, but schools can't hold out forever. UConn, the poster child for this, is losing $20 million a year on football. Eventually, these schools will either need to get the invite they've been praying for, or drop football (or downgrade to fcs). Some scoff at this. We haven't had a FBS football program drop since the Ivies did it in the 80s I think. UAB was going to do it, and then got cold feet. It's scary to be the first one to do something. Eventually one of these schools will and more and more schools will follow their lead. When these schools drop their football, they will be looking for new homes.
2. Realignment will happen again. It always does. The Big 10 will raid the ACC. The Big 12 and SEC might join them and take a few ACC teams of their own. The ACC will react by raiding the AAC, the AAC will raid Conference USA.....and so on and so forth. First of all, I'm not convinced UCONN gets picked up by the ACC in next round of realignment. I don't think they are the shoe-in they think they are. Second of all, when the ACC of the future looks like the AAC of today, they will not be making the same TV money they are now. A lot of the schools left behind the ACC, the Boston Colleges and Wake Forests of the world will go from making money to losing money on football. Notre Dame may no longer wish to affiliate with a weakened ACC and go back to being a true independent. These are all teams that could be potentially brought into the fold.
3. Years ago, you would have never imagined Butler or Creighton being added to the Big East, yet here they are. The next generation of Butlers and Creightons are out there. The key is finding basketball first schools with healthy endowments who are willing to make investments in their basketball programs. The University of Denver sucks at basketball. But they have a very large endowment and have shown a willingness to invest in winning sports programs. They are dominant in hockey, lax, and soccer. With the possibility of a future Big East invite, they might be willing to make investments in their basketball program and get it to a point where it can compete in the Big East. Maybe a school like UMass or Boston U can be convinced to make the same kinds of investments. They may seem like terrible adds now but give them some time and they might develop into strong additions. Key is finding schools willing to invest (the opposite of Depaul).
4. The teams that we are kicking around now, Dayton, SLU, Gonzaga, St. Mary's, BYU, etc. They will all still be available and begging to get in (maybe BYU isn't begging) to the Big East from now until the end of time. If none of the above scenarios come to pass, we can still get them later.
College athletics will look very different 10 years from now. The BEast has put themselves in a position to be takers instead of taken. No sense in rushing into anything now.
I have been one of the people clamoring for the Big East to expand to 12 basically since the current conference formed in 2013. But I'm not so stubborn as to never be swayed by a good argument. This is an excellent post. I'm swayed. I'm ok with sitting at 10 for now.
I'd still like to end up at 12 or 14. But your case for waiting makes sense.
Quote from: Goatherder on March 24, 2016, 03:07:17 PM
One of the strengths of the current Big East is that it is a bunch of similar schools that all want to be there. None of them have any desire to go anywhere else. That has not always been the case with these schools. Creighton was dying to get out of the Valley for years. Butler has to be thrilled with where it is. Could they have even imagined it ten years ago? Xavier is in probably the best conference it ever has been.
So when you talk about the domino effect of conferences raiding each other, who is going to raid the Big East, and who wants to leave? Right now, it is the best non-football conference out there and it is concentrating on men's basketball. Maybe the league expands eventually. I am not at all sure. The schools and the commissioner seem perfectly happy at ten, and it does not seem that Fox is putting any pressure on them. I see no need to expand just to expand, and some of the ideas getting thrown around are pretty crazy. It's not broke. Don't fix it.
Georgetown is probably the only exception. They would bolt for the ACC in a heartbeat, and clearly were the least enthusiastic about the conference formation. Luckily for the rest of us, there's no way the ACC wants them right now. And its probably not a terrible thing for the conference if GTown remains in the bottom half of the Big East for the foreseeable future, just to prevent interest from suitors.
Quote from: Coleman on March 24, 2016, 03:16:06 PM
Georgetown is probably the only exception. They would bolt for the ACC in a heartbeat,
I think Marquette would too.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on March 24, 2016, 03:17:25 PM
I think Marquette would too.
And just about every one else given the opportunity. I liked Goatherders post very much, though, because I hadn't thought of it that way before. While its true most schools would like to move to a P5 conference, the invitations are not forthcoming so nobody's likely to leave anytime soon and we are a very desirable destination for ANY non-football playing school.
Quote from: Coleman on March 24, 2016, 03:16:06 PM
Georgetown is probably the only exception. They would bolt for the ACC in a heartbeat, and clearly were the least enthusiastic about the conference formation. Luckily for the rest of us, there's no way the ACC wants them right now. And its probably not a terrible thing for the conference if GTown remains in the bottom half of the Big East for the foreseeable future, just to prevent interest from suitors.
It was Georgetown and Marquette that led the charge into the basketball-first conference after the original Big East collapsed. They, as much as anyone, got fed up with football schools leading the charge and making demands at the expense of non-football schools. They aren't going to regulate themselves to the backseat again to the football schools.
There's something to be said about conference unity and strength. For the first time possibly ever, the Big East is stable and committed to growing with one another - not looking to bolt for a superior football conference at a moment's notice.
I think realignment is mostly done unless schools come to the correct conclusion that big conferences are not a good idea. Look at UW football in the Big 10. They use to play Michigan and Ohio St almost every year. Now they are not likely to play either one of them unless they can get to the Big 10 Championship. It was a better conference when there were only 10 teams and that also goes for basketball. Having added Rutgers, Nebraska and Penn St has just water down their basketball conference and the addition of Maryland does not offset this.
Quote from: bilsu on March 24, 2016, 07:14:23 PM
I think realignment is mostly done unless schools come to the correct conclusion that big conferences are not a good idea. Look at UW football in the Big 10. They use to play Michigan and Ohio St almost every year. Now they are not likely to play either one of them unless they can get to the Big 10 Championship. It was a better conference when there were only 10 teams and that also goes for basketball. Having added Rutgers, Nebraska and Penn St has just water down their basketball conference and the addition of Maryland does not offset this.
That's funny. You think conference realignment is about creating quality competition on the court.
It's all about the $$$. That's the only reason expansion occurs.
It's about expanding its footprint and adding more eyeballs for its cable network. It's about money. Has nothing to do with the quality of competition. And spare me the nonsense about it being about education.
The Big 10 (or is it 14? I've lost count) wants to take over the college sports world and get added to as many cable packages as possible. That's their mission.
It's a pure money grab, which is the name of the game in today's college sports world. Makes me gag when I hear the term "student-athlete." As if the NCAA gives a damn about academic integrity.
Quote from: Coleman on March 24, 2016, 03:16:06 PM
Georgetown is probably the only exception. They would bolt for the ACC in a heartbeat, and clearly were the least enthusiastic about the conference formation. Luckily for the rest of us, there's no way the ACC wants them right now. And its probably not a terrible thing for the conference if GTown remains in the bottom half of the Big East for the foreseeable future, just to prevent interest from suitors.
Not sure about this. Georgetown was in the vanguard of forming the breakaway conference. They are not interested in having to eat the sh1t of the football schools.
Quote from: keefe on March 24, 2016, 11:50:48 PM
Not sure about this. Georgetown was in the vanguard of forming the breakaway conference. They are not interested in having to eat the sh1t of the football schools.
Everything I have heard suggests that, while they were out front when everything was made public, that they were quite reluctant participants when things started happening behind the scenes.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on March 25, 2016, 08:23:10 AM
Everything I have heard suggests that, while they publicly were out front when everything was made public, that they were quite reluctant participants when things started happening behind the scenes.
That's matches everything I've ever heard about it. Georgetown was publicly supporting the Catholic 7 while subtly lifting its skirt at the acc. ACC didn't bite so Georgetown stayed here.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on March 25, 2016, 08:23:10 AM
Everything I have heard suggests that, while they were out front when everything was made public, that they were quite reluctant participants when things started happening behind the scenes.
Yep. I don't have much 'real' info here on scoop but on this you can take it to the bank.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on March 25, 2016, 08:23:10 AM
Everything I have heard suggests that, while they were out front when everything was made public, that they were quite reluctant participants when things started happening behind the scenes.
That's what I heard too. They were pulled in kicking and screaming, at least when it was still 7 teams before things got finalized.
Quote from: Coleman on March 25, 2016, 09:21:11 AM
That's what I heard too. They were pulled in kicking and screaming, at least when it was still 7 teams before things got finalized.
A couple years have past -- Hey Matt V how about an off-season in-depth about how the new Big East *really* got pulled together??
(I don't know that he reads here, but I have a suspicion he takes a gander every now and then)
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 25, 2016, 10:04:24 AM
A couple years have past -- Hey Matt V how about an off-season in-depth about how the new Big East *really* got pulled together??
(I don't know that he reads here, but I have a suspicion he takes a gander every now and then)
He reads here
Quote from: keefe on March 24, 2016, 11:50:48 PM
Not sure about this. Georgetown was in the vanguard of forming the breakaway conference. They are not interested in having to eat the sh1t of the football schools.
My feeling is that G'town was totally fine eating football-school sh1t as long as it was from schools like Pitt, Louisville, Syracuse, ND, etc. But when it was Tulane, Houston, etc. sh1t, they turned their noses up at it (and rightfully so).
In other words, as others have alluded, they'd be fine (and maybe desire) being a basketball affiliate in a football power conference so long as the level of competition/"peer schools" was to their liking.
Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 24, 2016, 01:20:49 PM
2. Realignment will happen again. It always does. The Big 10 will raid the ACC. The Big 12 and SEC might join them and take a few ACC teams of their own. The ACC will react by raiding the AAC, the AAC will raid Conference USA.....and so on and so forth. First of all, I'm not convinced UCONN gets picked up by the ACC in next round of realignment. I don't think they are the shoe-in they think they are. Second of all, when the ACC of the future looks like the AAC of today, they will not be making the same TV money they are now. A lot of the schools left behind the ACC, the Boston Colleges and Wake Forests of the world will go from making money to losing money on football. Notre Dame may no longer wish to affiliate with a weakened ACC and go back to being a true independent. These are all teams that could be potentially brought into the fold.
Excellent point. Teams we're not even thinking about now may make a lot of sense after the debris of the next realignment clears. As good a reason as any to wait to expand (if at all).
Don't quite understand all the Georgetown bashing going on here. They would jump at the chance to join the ACC? Of course. Just like MU would fall all over itself to join the Big 10.
If any of the P5 conferences started adding hoops-only schools, all current Big East would be racing for the door.
Quote from: Groin_pull on March 25, 2016, 12:12:34 PM
Don't quite understand all the Georgetown bashing going on here. They would jump at the chance to join the ACC? Of course.
Um, not so fast. The ACC is chafing at the idea that the Washington media market is being ceded to the Big 10, and are concerned of a longer term strategy to extend the Big 10 south to Virginia and North Carolina. The ACC does not want to even consider Georgetown without getting a commitment to upgrade football, and Georgetown has shown no inclination to do so.
Quote from: DFW HOYA on March 25, 2016, 09:27:23 PM
Um, not so fast. The ACC is chafing at the idea that the Washington media market is being ceded to the Big 10, and are concerned of a longer term strategy to extend the Big 10 south to Virginia and North Carolina. The ACC does not want to even consider Georgetown without getting a commitment to upgrade football, and Georgetown has shown no inclination to do so.
He said Georgetown would jump at the chance to join the ACC, not that the ACC wanted Georgetown.