Has a guard who starts every game ever finished a season with more turnovers than assists? I couldn't find any phantom stats for Ast/TO ratio.
Cheatham is at 31 Ast / 37 TO
I like Cheatham, I'm just curious. Traci has 64 Ast / 30 TO for comparison.
This is where I miss the old statsheet.com - you could easily pull up data like that.
Has anyone found a suitable replacement for stats like they had?
Mayo had career totals of 119 assists and 140 turnovers. But then again he never was really asked to run the offense.
in 2013 Vander had 62 assists and 79 turnovers. Combine that with Lockett having 63 assists vs 65 TO's and Mayo having a .7 ast/to rate that same year, yet they somehow made the Elite 8.
Quote from: oldwarrior81 on January 04, 2016, 03:25:39 PM
Mayo had career totals of 119 assists and 140 turnovers. But then again he never was really asked to run the offense.
in 2013 Vander had 62 assists and 79 turnovers. Combine that with Lockett having 63 assists vs 65 TO's and Mayo having a .7 ast/to rate that same year, yet they somehow made the Elite 8.
Thank you!
In the 90-91 season Marquette had no true point guard which forced SG Robb Logterman into being the primary ball handler. Teams pressed us relentlessly and Robb finished with 85 assists and 87 turnovers.
The silver lining was that this forced us recruit some kid named Tony Miller.
Does Haanif need to improve his ball security? Of course. But like Logterman, he is playing out of position when asked to run the point, it isn't something he even did in HS.
Quote from: oldwarrior81 on January 04, 2016, 03:25:39 PM
Mayo had career totals of 119 assists and 140 turnovers. But then again he never was really asked to run the offense.
in 2013 Vander had 62 assists and 79 turnovers. Combine that with Lockett having 63 assists vs 65 TO's and Mayo having a .7 ast/to rate that same year, yet they somehow made the Elite 8.
That is hilarious. Tells you how important A/TO is.
Quote from: oldwarrior81 on January 04, 2016, 03:25:39 PM
in 2013 Vander had 62 assists and 79 turnovers.
Didn't realize Traci had more assists in 14 games than Vander did in 34 games his junior year before declaring
Quote from: WarriorPride68 on January 04, 2016, 03:32:55 PM
Didn't realize Traci had more assists in 14 games than Vander did in 34 games his junior year before declaring
Vander was never asked to be the PG. Traci is.
Quote from: TSmith34 on January 04, 2016, 03:34:08 PM
Vander was never asked to be the PG. Traci is.
Totally agree on that. I just wouldn't have guessed that
Check this out - back in '03-'04, every player on the roster other than Diener had more TOs than assists.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/269/year/2004/marquette-golden-eagles
:-\
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 04, 2016, 03:54:25 PM
Check this out - back in '03-'04, every player on the roster other than Diener had more TOs than assists.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/269/year/2004/marquette-golden-eagles
:-\
Maybe it's because they shot the ball well and didn't see the need to pass?
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 04, 2016, 03:30:12 PM
That is hilarious. Tells you how important A/TO is.
Also shows how valuable Cadougan was. Probably the most underrated player to play for Marquette in the past 6 years. Still don't understand why he got so much flack.
My sense is that Cheatham's turnovers are not principally coming when he's running the offense (at least now that he doesn't principally run the offense!). Rather--and I do think this is one knock against him--he seems to receive a pass and put his head down and head to the hoop, sort of like Jerel McNeal as a freshman and sophomore. His handle isn't a good as his focus, and that leads to turnovers. Like, Jerel, I assume he'll improve over the years, and I will remain optimistic about how important he could be to MU in the coming years. (I might also note that I feel that he seems to often only get the ball when the first option play--typically for Luke or Henry--has broken down, and the shot clock is running down; in that situation, it may not be so surprising that he's focused on getting a shot off.)
Quote from: Marqevans on January 04, 2016, 04:00:25 PM
Maybe it's because they shot the ball well and didn't see the need to pass?
I wish. Unfortunately, they shot .428 that season. That's MU's second lowest shooting percentage in the new millenium. The only season that was worse was '04-'05.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on January 04, 2016, 04:03:51 PM
Also shows how valuable Cadougan was. Probably the most underrated player to play for Marquette in the past 6 years. Still don't understand why he got so much flack.
As a senior he was a very good and fun to watch player. Along the way he was a little bit out of control and less fun to watch. We lost some winnable games because of him in the earlier days. I agree,on the whole, he was underrated.
Quote from: mug644 on January 04, 2016, 04:05:44 PM
My sense is that Cheatham's turnovers are not principally coming when he's running the offense (at least now that he doesn't principally run the offense!). Rather--and I do think this is one knock against him--he seems to receive a pass and put his head down and head to the hoop, sort of like Jerel McNeal as a freshman and sophomore. His handle isn't a good as his focus, and that leads to turnovers. Like, Jerel, I assume he'll improve over the years, and I will remain optimistic about how important he could be to MU in the coming years. (I might also note that I feel that he seems to often only get the ball when the first option play--typically for Luke or Henry--has broken down, and the shot clock is running down; in that situation, it may not be so surprising that he's focused on getting a shot off.)
Statistically he is our best three point shooter, but he keeps passing up threes to drive to the hoop.
Quote from: bilsu on January 04, 2016, 05:03:36 PM
Statistically he has made a higher percentage of his 3-point attempts is our best three point shooter, but he keeps passing up threes to drive to the hoop.
FIFY. There is a difference.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on January 04, 2016, 04:03:51 PM
Also shows how valuable Cadougan was. Probably the most underrated player to play for Marquette in the past 6 years. Still don't understand why he got so much flack.
Because he couldn't defend my grandmother. I don't think he was all that underrated. He was a good point guard for a S16 (junior) and E8 (senior) team. The guy didn't make any All BE teams. That's pretty much who he was.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 04, 2016, 06:51:43 PM
Because he couldn't defend my grandmother. I don't think he was all that underrated. He was a good point guard for a S16 (junior) and E8 (senior) team. The guy didn't make any All BE teams. That's pretty much who he was.
And look how much we suffered after he left...I think of Vander stayed his senior year, he would be the one that ran the point that year.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on January 04, 2016, 07:13:21 PM
And look how much we suffered after he left...I think of Vander stayed his senior year, he would be the one that ran the point that year.
We suffered after he left because Buzz didn't recruit an adequate replacement.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 04, 2016, 07:21:47 PM
We suffered after he left because Buzz didn't recruit an adequate replacement.
To be clear, Buzz did sign adequate replacements. TJ Taylor had eligibility/personal issues. Duane Wilson had a stress fracture and redshirted.Derrick was the back-up stopper. Vander and Mayo could have filled the Buycks combo guard role. Vander left and Mayo was a head case.
As a replacement to TJT, Buzz thought that he would get Nunn...and then the dorm incident and Pilarz happened...and MU hasn't been tapped into the Chicago scene since Teve (not counting Mache and remembering the Firestarter never signed).
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on January 04, 2016, 04:03:51 PM
Also shows how valuable Cadougan was. Probably the most underrated player to play for Marquette in the past 6 years. Still don't understand why he got so much flack.
I didn't start actively doing the Scoop thing until the second half of Junior's junior year. (Junior's junior year -- that's fun to say, BTW.) So I wasn't around to witness most of the crap he took on Scoop.
I appreciated the many fine moments he had, especially as a senior.
And yet as I have said before, I believe he should be the "floor" for the talent we should have at PG. He shouldn't be the best PG at Marquette in a 10-year period.
I would guess starting PG Markus Jackson probably had more turnovers than assists, ai'na?
Quote from: wadesworld on January 04, 2016, 10:20:42 PM
I would guess starting PG Markus Jackson probably had more turnovers than assists, ai'na?
Funny you mention that, when I saw this topic, I checked the infamous* point-forward's numbers, and he actually had a positive A/TO ratio the year Diener broke his hand...
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/15238/marcus-jackson
* That's actually being rude to Marcus - he was one of the best ball handlers *left* on that team, but it wasn't what he signed up for (or what anyone would have thought he would be doing).
Edit: Maybe I shouldn't trust ESPN stats, I just noticed on the page "Birth Date: September 18, 2003" Apparently MJ was an infant in a 6-8 240 lb basketball beast body.
All this talk of former players makes me sad... I miss winning ....
Just win baby!
Cheatham is now at 45 Ast / 59 TO. And hasn't had a game with more assists than turnovers since December 8th vs San Jose State.
Hoping for a big off season by Haanif. He has all the tools to be something special/great
NM
This thread was combined with another...oddly enough, also started by WarriorPride68.
Cut Haanif some slack. He's not a natural PG.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 25, 2016, 03:10:57 PM
NM
This thread was combined with another...oddly enough, also started by WarriorPride68.
Cut Haanif some slack. He's not a natural PG.
What's the other thread I started on Haanif? I'm not ripping on him. Their stats
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 04, 2016, 11:24:33 PM
Funny you mention that, when I saw this topic, I checked the infamous* point-forward's numbers, and he actually had a positive A/TO ratio the year Diener broke his hand...
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/15238/marcus-jackson
* That's actually being rude to Marcus - he was one of the best ball handlers *left* on that team, but it wasn't what he signed up for (or what anyone would have thought he would be doing).
Edit: Maybe I shouldn't trust ESPN stats, I just noticed on the page "Birth Date: September 18, 2003" Apparently MJ was an infant in a 6-8 240 lb basketball beast body.
OMG. That brings back some dreadful memories. I can't believe we had to resort to him bringing the ball up.
Quote from: WarriorPride68 on January 25, 2016, 03:16:14 PM
What's the other thread I started on Haanif? I'm not ripping on him. Their stats
This post...at the very top of this thread.
Quote from: WarriorPride68 on January 04, 2016, 03:08:59 PM
Has a guard who starts every game ever finished a season with more turnovers than assists? I couldn't find any phantom stats for Ast/TO ratio.
Cheatham is at 31 Ast / 37 TO
I like Cheatham, I'm just curious. Traci has 64 Ast / 30 TO for comparison.
What's your obsession with Haanif's A/TO ratio?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 25, 2016, 03:21:36 PM
This post...at the very top of this thread.
What's your obsession with Haanif's A/TO ratio?
I have a thing for stats, nothing more. Was just looking at them this afternoon. Why are you so defensive? I didn't rip Haanif
Edit: this is the same thread i created back a month or two ago. Was just posting to update. No threads were combined, it's the same one
Quote from: WarriorPride68 on January 25, 2016, 03:27:46 PM
I have a thing for stats, nothing more. Was just looking at them this afternoon. Why are you so defensive? I didn't rip Haanif
Edit: this is the same thread i created back a month or two ago. Was just posting to update. No threads were combined, it's the same one
To answer your original question, it has happened before at MU with some terrific players. Both McNeal and Matthews didn't post positive A/To ratios until their junior years.
And, if you think Haanif turns the ball over a lot, McNeal averaged 3.8 turnovers a game his freshman year. Currently, Haanif's at 2.9, playing at a slightly faster tempo.
Quote from: RJax55 on January 25, 2016, 03:44:49 PM
To answer your original question, it has happened before at MU with some terrific players. Both McNeal and Matthews didn't posted positive A/To ratios until their junior years.
And, if you think Haanif turns the ball over a lot, McNeal averaged 3.8 turnovers a game his freshman year. Currently, Haanif's at 2.9, playing at a slightly faster tempo.
I appreciate the post. The Vander blue stats too confirmed that ast / to can be over blown, as that was a great year for the Warriors
Quote from: WarriorPride68 on January 25, 2016, 03:27:46 PM
I have a thing for stats, nothing more. Was just looking at them this afternoon. Why are you so defensive? I didn't rip Haanif
Edit: this is the same thread i created back a month or two ago. Was just posting to update. No threads were combined, it's the same one
I guess I didn't realize it was the same thread. My apologies.
I'm not defensive. It's just odd to bring back up a topic (Haanif's A/TO) whose basis is pretty useless. That's all. He's an off-guard with more TOs than assists, which isn't all that uncommon. I don't understand the point of the update. I guess I should have just stayed away.
Cheers.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 25, 2016, 03:46:58 PM
I guess I didn't realize it was the same thread. My apologies.
I'm not defensive. It's just odd to bring back up a topic (Haanif's A/TO) whose basis is pretty useless. That's all. He's an off-guard with more TOs than assists, which isn't all that uncommon. I don't understand the point of the update. I guess I should have just stayed away.
Cheers.
But, Haanif is playing a lot at PG.
Very interesting comment by Wojo at post game interview. We are a team that turns the ball over a lot. We need it still find a way to win. Amazing stuff, acceptance of reality and still wants to win.
Turnovers are a reality not a problem, you take the good with the bad. Hustel, steals, whatever make up for turnovers???
Quote from: WarriorPride68 on January 04, 2016, 03:08:59 PM
Has a guard who starts every game ever finished a season with more turnovers than assists? I couldn't find any phantom stats for Ast/TO ratio.
Cheatham is at 31 Ast / 37 TO
I like Cheatham, I'm just curious. Traci has 64 Ast / 30 TO for comparison.
Traci is also shooting 32% from the field. Dreadful.
I expect Haanif to be a four year player and he has a decent chance to be our first 2000 point scorer.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 25, 2016, 03:46:58 PM
I guess I didn't realize it was the same thread. My apologies.
I'm not defensive. It's just odd to bring back up a topic (Haanif's A/TO) whose basis is pretty useless. That's all. He's an off-guard with more TOs than assists, which isn't all that uncommon. I don't understand the point of the update. I guess I should have just stayed away.
Cheers.
I think I am on your side here.
He is a 2G - but I would guess the vast majority of his TOs have come when he is playing point. He should be nowhere near the ball against the press until the ball gets to half court.
Haanif is a wing . I think the fact that Wojo played him at point says more about Duane's lack of PG skills than it does about than Haanif.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on January 25, 2016, 05:26:25 PM
Traci is also shooting 32% from the field. Dreadful.
Is HE breaking 25% from 3?
Quote from: RJax55 on January 25, 2016, 03:44:49 PM
To answer your original question, it has happened before at MU with some terrific players. Both McNeal and Matthews didn't post positive A/To ratios until their junior years.
And, if you think Haanif turns the ball over a lot, McNeal averaged 3.8 turnovers a game his freshman year. Currently, Haanif's at 2.9, playing at a slightly faster tempo.
A/TO isn't very relevant, imo. It's marrying two stats... for what purpose?
Per game averages are silly as well... McNeal's 3.8 to Haanif's 2.9... so what? "A slightly faster tempo"... how about minutes and total possessions played... as a frosh, McNeal's turnover rate was 29%, but he was also a heavy-volume guy involved in plays (27% usage)... Haanif is only at a 21% usage, with a slightly lower turnover rate of 27.4...
Different players, different roles... but the 3.8 to 2.9 per game isn't the relevant measurement. Not to mention Jerel's figures include going through the full conference slate while Haanif's PT is weighted toward lesser competition, aina?
Haanif against top 100 kenpom opponents.. 33% turnover rate, same Ortg as Rel
No point really other than gotta be careful with "stats" that don't have a lot of meaning.. Haanif's turnover rate will improve over his time at MU
Quote from: oldwarrior81 on January 04, 2016, 03:25:39 PM
Mayo had career totals of 119 assists and 140 turnovers. But then again he never was really asked to run the offense.
Actually you are wrong. He was asked to run the offense on 13 trips down the court. All 13 times a defender flicked the ball away from him behind and then sprinted to the other end so the defender he flicked it too could throw it ahead for an uncontested dunk while Mayo jogged back discouraged.
Mayo's official offensive rating as a point guard was therefore a negative 200, indicated he would give up exactly 2 points every time he touched the ball as a point guard.
At least that's how I remember it!
Sorry, have trouble doing real on my phone.
Quote from: MU82 on January 25, 2016, 07:45:00 PM
Whose stats?
Auto correct on mobile. My apologies for that confusion.
Quote from: bilsu on January 25, 2016, 06:53:49 PM
I expect Haanif to be a four year player and he has a decent chance to be our first 2000 point scorer.
Ummmm...Ok....What about Wilson?
Quote from: willie warrior on January 26, 2016, 10:15:58 AM
Ummmm...Ok....What about Wilson?
Wilson does too, but I think he needed to score more this year. However, if he can keep up his recent pace his odds improve.