1. IIRC, third youngest team in D1. It shows.
2. Looking for a leader. A flash here, a flash there. Looking for anyone to play consistently.
3. Makes me laugh hearing how tough MU's schedule is from the announcers after all of the kvetching around here. Does anyone feel we have too many cupcakes now?
4. Italy was fool's gold. Forget about Italy. All it did was skew expectations.
5. Other teams can shoot 3's. And have guys who can make senior plays. So jealous.
6. Zone is better than man right now. Throw in some 3/4 pressure to slow the opponent down.
7. Missing too many lay ups and then giving up too many. Two games worth.
8. Too many turnovers, too many boneheaded plays, from the 'experienced' guards.
9. The thing is, there are moments. Sandy for a minute. Haanif for a minute.
10. MU will get better. But there is so far to go with all of these young players. Time to temper expectations and look for growth.
11. Really wanted a floor slap with 2 minutes to go.
12. Would have loved to see Carlino out there at the end. Because there aren't any experienced finishers out there.
13. Need more paint touches. Got away from feeding the bigs.
14. But IUPUI helped MU out at the end. And Wilson finally made a play....
15. And a win is a win.
16. JJJ should not play more than a minute or two per game.
17. Henry is nowhere near ready for the NBA.
18. If they are playing like this in February I will be really concerned.
Quote from: ecompt on November 16, 2015, 10:30:35 PM
16. JJJ should not play more than a minute or two per game.
17. Henry is nowhere near ready for the NBA.
18. If they are playing like this in February I will be really concerned.
JJJ is erratic. He was one of the only competent guys against Belmont finishing the ball.
Cheatham looks to be far more advanced than Carter at the moment.
Sandy taking a nice step forward
Remember back when Marquette could shoot from outside? That was nice
Defense looks to be as bad as last year
Was impressed with Wally's defense
Too many bad turnovers and ill advised shots
The good:
Free Throws: 24 for 29
Win
The rest:
3 for 17 from three. Two games, 9 for 43 (20%)
MU has given up 3 four point plays in two games
20 turnovers
Missed layups
Fischer on defense, oh boy. Not one personal foul against him, but great offensively 17/10
JJJ = doghouse
Cheatham is the PG....
Quote from: ecompt on November 16, 2015, 10:30:35 PM
16. JJJ should not play more than a minute or two per game.
17. Henry is nowhere near ready for the NBA.
18. If they are playing like this in February I will be really concerned.
JJJ should play more than 1 minute. Henry will improve and will be big time.
1. You have to be able to make 3's to win. We can't.
2. Duane looks clueless out there. His outside shots have almost no chance of going in. No confidence and missing badly. 1-6 on threes; 5 turnovers.
3. Given up three 4-point plays in 2 games. You shouldn't give up three in a season.
Quote from: ecompt on November 16, 2015, 10:30:35 PM
16. JJJ should not play more than a minute or two per game.
17. Henry is nowhere near ready for the NBA.
18. If they are playing like this in February I will be really concerned.
Nowhere near. You should be an NBA scout....
We settle for 3's way too much.
Henry's 3 point shot is rushed and flat....not an attractive looking stroke.
Henry, stop spinning into your defensive man in the paint....this isn't high school
Our defense....ouch it needs work.
Guys are young, they will get better. They play hard.
Someone said last week Iowa was bad.....I hate to see what happens next week when they beat us.
Next week? Try 3 days. Not looking good after tonight.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 16, 2015, 10:40:27 PM
We settle for 3's way too much.
Henry's 3 point shot is rushed and flat....not an attractive looking stroke.
Henry, stop spinning into your defensive man in the paint....this isn't high school
Our defense....ouch it needs work.
Guys are young, they will get better. They play hard.
Someone said last week Iowa was bad.....I hate to see what happens next week when they beat us.
Ooooorrrr on Thursdsy.
Seems like Ellenson was handed the job. I'm not sure he makes our best 5 right now. His D is lacking. Hopefully Wojo's evaluation of Ellenson was correct as the season goes on. He put a lot of eggs in that basket.
Quote from: DJOs Jaw on November 16, 2015, 10:42:42 PM
Next week? Try 3 days. Not looking good after tonight.
Thanks, maybe I was hoping it was next week.
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 16, 2015, 10:44:49 PM
Seems like Ellenson was handed the job. I'm not sure he makes our best 5 right now. His D is lacking. Hopefully Wojo's evaluation of Ellenson was correct as the season goes on. He put a lot of eggs in that basket.
Seriously?
We need to stick with the zone for awhile. We at least look serviceable on defense running the 2-3.
How does a kid like Wilson go from shooting just over 40% from behind the arc in high school to just under 20% in college?
I mean he is missing wide open looks. He was suppose to be a "shooter" as was JJJ.
We need guards that can shoot, plain and simple.
Luke finished through contact multiple times, that was good to see. Defense struggled, but I liked seeing the zone, both that the players did okay with it and that Wojo is still willing to use it. Sandy really had some nice moments, Cheatham has talent but isn't a PG, often just too hesitant initiating the offense.
Negatives as well. Three shooting has been horrible. Way too many turnovers and poor shot choices. Back door was still exploiting us, at least Wally showed willingness to get physical against it.
I'll be very curious to see IUPUI in a few months. The addition of Combs and Osborne will make them a lot more respectable.
Quote from: GE911 on November 16, 2015, 10:51:02 PM
How does a kid like Wilson go from shooting just over 40% from behind the arc in high school to just under 20% in college?
I mean he is missing wide open looks. He was suppose to be a "shooter" as was JJJ.
We need guards that can shoot, plain and simple.
He shot 36% last year. It's been two games. Wow.
Quote from: GE911 on November 16, 2015, 10:51:02 PM
How does a kid like Wilson go from shooting just over 40% from behind the arc in high school to just under 20% in college?
I mean he is missing wide open looks. He was suppose to be a "shooter" as was JJJ.
We need guards that can shoot, plain and simple.
People go through rough patches. I remember a few years ago, DJO couldn't hit anything from 3 for like half the season. Carlino went through a dry spell last year as well. Hopefully Duane can work his way through it.
MU had success going inside to Fischer early. Not sure why they went away from it right away and shot about three 3's in a row. Also, think Ellenson is better in the post than from the elbow. He needs to be inside more than out.
Duane will never be a consistent player I fear. You will see the mind numbing turnovers and you will see the big shots from him.
I thought the zone looked pretty good for the most part. MU has trouble with closing out on shooters which creates dribble penetration, kick outs, threes, etc. That will be taught to the young players.
Lastly, scary JJJ is the most experienced player by far on the team with 53 games under his belt. He needs to start showing more maturity.
Did Duane change the form on his shot?
His elbow position looks different.
Quote from: AirPunch on November 16, 2015, 10:55:52 PM
MU had success going inside to Fischer early. Not sure why they went away from it right away and shot about three 3's in a row.
They started double teaming Fischer in the post. We need our shooters to punish them with threes when they do that.
I'm not worried about Duane yet. I remember DJO having 20 at halftime his first year here, I believe in Orlando, and finished the game with...20.
Duane was poor outside, but hit mid-range and deep twos, and 7/15 for 16 points is a fine scoring line any night. He'll be fine.
Quote from: Warriorfish on November 16, 2015, 10:58:59 PM
Did Duane change the form on his shot?
His elbow position looks different.
Yes - I noticed it too. And he's over-jumping. Dominic James syndrome.
I'd like to see more focus on the fast break. There were chances, but they all slow down at the top of the key... or a secondary break with HE/Amin as the trainers - that would be dangerous.
JJJ - reminds me of Tony Snell. Too dumb to play a team game. But Tony Snell can shoot.
Point is definitely an issue on this team despite having three players at the spot. Duane not a natural point and it showed with 5 turnovers. Carter can play "D' but turns it over. Cheatham the best option but his man-to-man D needs improvement. His zone D is much better.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on November 16, 2015, 11:14:07 PM
Point is definitely an issue on this team despite having three players at the spot. Duane not a natural point and it showed with 5 turnovers. Carter can play "D' but turns it over. Cheatham the best option but his man-to-man D needs improvement. His zone D is much better.
Zone with Cheatham, Cohen, Ellenson and Luke is hard to attack if they all play the fundamentals correctly. Alot of length there.
Thoughts on tonight -- Part 2
1) I guess this is called a win.
2) Too many guys who think they are still playing in the WIAA, IHSA, TSSAA etc. We've got a bunch of kids who are playing at a collegiate level for the first time -- and it shows.
3) So much for Henry being one-and-done. The talent is there but the polish will be at least a two year process.
4) We don't appear to know how to play together yet. That was VERY evident tonight as well as in the Belmont stats. That comes with experience.
5) If we do not do a better job defending the "3" ball, this is going to be a VERY long season. IUPUI had way too many open looks.
6) Cheatham shows an awful lot of poise. Watching him hit free throws when it mattered is a sight for sore eyes.
7) We're better than last year, but it's obvious we have a boatload of freshmen on the team.
Quote from: dgies9156 on November 16, 2015, 11:26:05 PM
4) We don't appear to know how to play together yet. That was VERY evident tonight as well as in the Belmont stats. That comes with experience.
Spot on. But the explanation is pretty simple - it's because we haven't played together before. As you said, that comes with experience.
Our outside shooting besides Sandy is awful.
We can't defend the dribble drive at all. We either foul or give up penetration way to easily and that is against non-athletic teams. Its basic fundamental defense that Wojo needs to be hammering into our players.
Until both areas improve this team will struggle to win.
Going forward, I like the talent of the freshmen but please recruit a point guard. Cheatham and Carter at the point are not the answers. How do we go from having great point guards year after year to now not having one for quite awhile.
Henry is going to be a very good player by the end of the year.
I'm starting to have flash backs to 2014-2015
NB Omaha = Belmont
NJIT = IUPUI
That team wen to a holiday tournament and surprised me.
Lets hope the parallels stop once conference play begins.
I admittedly saw very little of the game, but missed layups are just plain bad
Quote from: NotAnAlum on November 16, 2015, 11:33:33 PM
I'm starting to have flash backs to 2014-2015
NB Omaha = Belmont
NJIT = IUPUI
That team wen to a holiday tournament and surprised me.
Lets hope the parallels stop once conference play begins.
One difference is that last year four of our main rotation players were seasoned veterans. Now we have at best one seasoned veteran. So this team SHOULD improve more than last year's team as the season wears on.
Funny the comments on Henry not being a one and done after two games. How would you like to be judged on two days of work?
A few things:
++Henry has shown some great flashes but no, he hasn't looked "NBA-like" through two whole games. That doesn't mean he won't settle into college ball and be a true beast by the time we get going in the conference season. Even if he's not a total stud, though, it doesn't mean he'll stay and it doesn't mean NBA teams will ignore him. It's all about potential. And I'm one who has thought all along he'll be around for more than one year.
++Duane's badly missed shots were one thing. His loose handle and carelessness were driving me nuts and I kept waiting for Wojo to get him out of there. In the end, though, he came through, so I tip my hat to him and Wojo.
++Count me among those who wonder why we totally stopped going to Luke. I know they were sagging down quite a bit, but there were several opportunities to feed him after he worked for position and he was ignored. He really had a solid game offensively and on the boards.
++Cheatham is gonna be a very nice player.
++It's hard to envision this being an NCAA tournament team now, but players and teams do improve over the course of the season. At least that's what I'm hoping!
Quote from: 79Warrior on November 16, 2015, 11:52:27 PM
Funny the comments on Henry not being a one and done after two games. How would you like to be judged on two days of work?
I think the one and done concept was way over done. If anyone had bothered to watch the kid play in high school they would have understood that. He has some very nice skills, but his overall basketball IQ is lacking. He is a me first,stat oriented player who does not bring up the level of play of those around him. He is a 6-10 Carlino. He has always been that way which is part of the reason he never won anything in high school. That said I am still very happy he is on our team and am confident he will eventually become a polished and intelligent player as his basic skills are clearly strong.
I also think part of the problem is that Wojo has given him a complete green light, which no one else has. I think having him bring the ball up is screwing up the guards rythym. Yes he can do it, but that doesn't mean it should.
Duane is frustrating. Hopefully has a McNeal arc. Follows up less than ideal plays with a horrible play often. Jerel did that at times, but was a far superior player. Off shooting night?-wasn't good
Sandy is good on both ends. Stay aggressive, needs to get in the game quicker, starts too slow.
Hanny is the real deal, super excited about his future.
Henry will get better, defense improved.
Fishy needed to eat that second half, coulda dropped thirty on these guys.
Wally played nice defense, had a natural flow with Henry. Would like to see that combo to get Fishy more rest.
Carter needs a tune up, that engine ain't running.
Wojo needs to pull these guys of the quick three. Also, needed a substitution at the end.
And Wojo is forcing Henry to be a man. Three straight situations they've gone to him with the game on the line. None have worked.
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 16, 2015, 10:44:49 PM
Seems like Ellenson was handed the job. I'm not sure he makes our best 5 right now. His D is lacking. Hopefully Wojo's evaluation of Ellenson was correct as the season goes on. He put a lot of eggs in that basket.
2 double doubles is handed the job? What are you on?
Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on November 17, 2015, 12:02:05 AM
I think the one and done concept was way over done. If anyone had bothered to watch the kid play in high school they would have understood that. He has some very nice skills, but his overall basketball IQ is lacking. He is a me first,stat oriented player who does not bring up the level of play of those around him. He is a 6-10 Carlino. He has always been that way which is part of the reason he never won anything in high school. That said I am still very happy he is on our team and am confident he will eventually become a polished and intelligent player as his basic skills are clearly strong.
I also think part of the problem is that Wojo has given him a complete green light, which no one else has. I think having him bring the ball up is screwing up the guards rythym. Yes he can do it, but that doesn't mean it should.
Pretty crazy how people who get paid to make that determination disagree with you.
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 16, 2015, 10:44:49 PM
Seems like Ellenson was handed the job. I'm not sure he makes our best 5 right now. His D is lacking. Hopefully Wojo's evaluation of Ellenson was correct as the season goes on. He put a lot of eggs in that basket.
Uhhhh is this the liquor speaking?
Hes done a lot of disappointing little things thus far....but not in our 5 best? lol. Wed be absolutely screwed without him
Quote from: NotAnAlum on November 16, 2015, 11:33:33 PM
I'm starting to have flash backs to 2014-2015
NB Omaha = Belmont
NJIT = IUPUI
That team wen to a holiday tournament and surprised me.
Lets hope the parallels stop once conference play begins.
Belmont is far, far, far better than Omaha was last year. THat loss was a travesty. Belmont was simply dissappointing we didnt closeout but understandable.
This is hilarious. Henry is averaging 19.5 ppg/9.5 rpg and people think he isn't NBA ready? Tell that to Trey Lyles, Noah Vonleh, Steven Adams, and Alex Len, all of whom put up far worse numbers and were lottery picks. The NBA drafts on potential and Henry has a ton of it. He was off last night and went for 18/3/3. That's a pretty darn good off night.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 17, 2015, 06:13:38 AM
This is hilarious. Henry is averaging 19.5 ppg/9.5 rpg and people think he isn't NBA ready? Tell that to Trey Lyles, Noah Vonleh, Steven Adams, and Alex Len, all of whom put up far worse numbers and were lottery picks. The NBA drafts on potential and Henry has a ton of it. He was off last night and went for 18/3/3. That's a pretty darn good off night.
Plus 10000
The number of turnovers alone could be cited as costing us the Belmont game and almost costing us the IUPUI game. If our guards take care of the ball, lots of problems are solved. That said, we also give up way too many easy baskets, shoot threes poorly, don't feed the Fish enough and give up way too many offensive rebounds. Iowa will be a tough game to win unless we fix some or all of the issues.
People bitch about Du turning the ball over.....Combs had 10 TOs! During the game, I kept thinking about how he's killing MU. If I was a IUPUI fan, I'd have been thinking how much he needs to get a better handle or sit. Funny how one's perspective can change depending on the side from which you look.
Quote from: Lighthouse 84 on November 17, 2015, 07:34:34 AMPeople bitch about Du turning the ball over.....Combs had 10 TOs! During the game, I kept thinking about how he's killing MU. If I was a IUPUI fan, I'd have been thinking how much he needs to get a better handle or sit. Funny how one's perspective can change depending on the side from which you look.
This is such a good point. Yes, Duane had too many turnovers, but the guy still was very efficient inside the arc and was one of our leading scorers. This team will need time to grow. It's very easy to look at our own deficiencies without seeing both sides of the equation.
Both Duane and Combs turned it over, but both were also instrumental in the positive things their teams were doing as well.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 17, 2015, 06:13:38 AM
This is hilarious. Henry is averaging 19.5 ppg/9.5 rpg and people think he isn't NBA ready? Tell that to Trey Lyles, Noah Vonleh, Steven Adams, and Alex Len, all of whom put up far worse numbers and were lottery picks. The NBA drafts on potential and Henry has a ton of it. He was off last night and went for 18/3/3. That's a pretty darn good off night.
Yep. Dude is gone. He is extremely skilled, and has agame that appears to be more suited for the NBA. Now, is he a finished product right now? No, but not sure if some of you guys have looked at the schedule, but they've got about 30 games left to play this year.
Duane Wilson is a conundrum. He shows flashes, but when things aren't going his way he seems like a sulker.
I think Sandy Cohen deserves to be starting. I thought he was a big difference in last nights game. Nothing not to like there.
Right now Luke Fischer is our best option on offense. Second is Henry, provided he's got his back to the basket. Just because he can handle the ball doesn't mean he should be. He is a disaster in the open court.
Two tough opponents, so far. At this point, fans should be looking forward to the cupcakes.
One more thing...our rebounding effort was not good. We have as much size as anybody, but nobody seems to really want to go after rebounds...just letting them come.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 17, 2015, 07:49:59 AM
One more thing...our rebounding effort was not good. We have as much size as anybody, but nobody seems to really want to go after rebounds...just letting them come.
I think it's more a function technique than effort/want to, but the point is correct...rebounding needs a lot of work.
Duane is a 2 guard who isn't a very good shooter. Cheatam and Cohen have been impressive, as has the frontcourt as a whole. Lots of positives, but the PG position is the biggest hole right now. Ideally Wilson picks up his play real soon using the last play as a momentum builder...
Amazing, simply amazing. There are more than a couple guys that have posted here that are basically saying Duane should be benched!
The guy is the leading returning scorer, and is the only Guard we can rely on to score regularly.
He is capable of putting up 20 plus, and has done 30 plus. His shot has not looked real well this year, but that will come. Yet we hear he is clueless out there, he is totally frustrating and inconsistent, etc. That could be said about several guys. Fischer has done well but has plenty of defensive lapses, same for Henry. Sandy also disappears periodically, as does JJJ. We have two Frosh playing PG, but Wilson helps in that area, also. We are two games in and some guys are basically calling for Wilson's head.
Of more worry should be how the team has performed. Yeah, we beat EEwie Pewie--but barely in OT. With our talent, this game should have been a no brainer.
Hopefully Wojo can improve things. Now Iowa should be a real test.
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 16, 2015, 10:44:49 PM
Seems like Ellenson was handed the job. I'm not sure he makes our best 5 right now. His D is lacking. Hopefully Wojo's evaluation of Ellenson was correct as the season goes on. He put a lot of eggs in that basket.
Buried your best point. Henry has been really bad defensively. And it's not positioning or awareness, it's effort. He was going at half speed a lot the past two games.
Quote from: MUfan12 on November 17, 2015, 08:20:54 AM
Buried your best point. Henry has been really bad defensively. And it's not positioning or awareness, it's effort. He was going at half speed a lot the past two games.
Good grief.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 17, 2015, 12:49:18 AM
Pretty crazy how people who get paid to make that determination disagree with you.
The People who get paid to make the determination have a losing record.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on November 17, 2015, 08:24:29 AM
Good grief.
Look, I'm glad he's here. But he has been really poor on D, and he's not alone in that regard.
Watch how quickly he moves when he runs the break after a defensive rebound, and watch how quickly he rotates/helps/closes out defensively.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on November 17, 2015, 07:57:40 AM
I think it's more a function technique than effort/want to, but the point is correct...rebounding needs a lot of work.
Agreed. I think switching to zone definitely did not help at all either. Hopefully, the more we play zone, the more the team figures out how to rebound from it.
Quote from: mufanatic on November 16, 2015, 11:31:27 PM
Going forward, I like the talent of the freshmen but please recruit a point guard. Cheatham and Carter at the point are not the answers. How do we go from having great point guards year after year to now not having one for quite awhile.
Right now. You could make a case that Cheatham and Carter are not the answers at the point right now. Remember that they are true freshmen and this is the second game.
Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on November 17, 2015, 08:30:03 AM
The People who get paid to make the determination have a losing record.
I respectfully suggest you look at the stats of many recent one and dones who eventually became lottery picks.
The stats in their first two games were similar, and sometimes worse than, those of Henry.
First two games playing at a high level = he looked very good. And he will look better as the season progresses.
honestly haven't been that impressed with henry so far. think he will end up great but he has got to be WAY better on defense. scoring a lot but is a high volume shooter.
impressed with cheatham
i think carter and anim will be up and down.
at some point the experienced players have to start leading. remember what james, mcneal, and matthews did when they were sophomores and juniors.
hopefully andrew rowsey coming next year can help the pg spot and 3 point shooting. so far it appears cohen is the only one that can shoot the 3, however we have a lot of guys that THINK they can shoot the 3 (ellenson, duane, jjj)
also gave up way too many offensive boards against a team with inferior size
Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on November 17, 2015, 12:02:05 AM
I think the one and done concept was way over done. If anyone had bothered to watch the kid play in high school they would have understood that. He has some very nice skills, but his overall basketball IQ is lacking. He is a me first,stat oriented player who does not bring up the level of play of those around him. He is a 6-10 Carlino. He has always been that way which is part of the reason he never won anything in high school. That said I am still very happy he is on our team and am confident he will eventually become a polished and intelligent player as his basic skills are clearly strong.
He never won anything in high school because he's from Rice-f**king-Lake.
Anyone who has watched top freshman coming out of high school in recent years, outside of the elite of the elite, has seen players like Henry. They rush things. They don't quite understand the game at this level. However they usually have a lot more talent around them than this Marquette team has. They can fill a role, defer to others on off nights, but be the man when they need to be.
And THAT is what should concern Marquette fans or any fans of teams like ours. This may be providing an example of why one-and-done types should gravitate toward elite teams where they are surrounded by potential NBA talent. Henry is the only player that I can confidently say is going to do more than a cup of coffee in the league that is on this team right now.
The idea that he was handed his starting job is laughable. After two games, who on this team is playing better than Henry Ellenson? Maybe Sandy. Maybe Luke. That's about it.
Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on November 17, 2015, 12:02:05 AM
I think the one and done concept was way over done. If anyone had bothered to watch the kid play in high school they would have understood that. He has some very nice skills, but his overall basketball IQ is lacking. He is a me first,stat oriented player who does not bring up the level of play of those around him. He is a 6-10 Carlino. He has always been that way which is part of the reason he never won anything in high school. That said I am still very happy he is on our team and am confident he will eventually become a polished and intelligent player as his basic skills are clearly strong.
I also think part of the problem is that Wojo has given him a complete green light, which no one else has. I think having him bring the ball up is screwing up the guards rythym. Yes he can do it, but that doesn't mean it should.
Lol.
Always good to start the work day with a good laugh. Appreciate it.
Quote from: moomoo on November 17, 2015, 08:38:13 AM
I respectfully suggest you look at the stats of many recent one and dones who eventually became lottery picks.
The stats in their first two games were similar, and sometimes worse than, those of Henry.
First two games playing at a high level = he looked very good. And he will look better as the season progresses.
Exactly. Spot on.
Scoopers are doing the same thing Scoopers always do. Judge players against their expectations of them versus the reality.
- Team D needs a lot of work. Too much scrambling and confusion.
- MU needs a go-to guy down the stretch. Duane is willing and occasionally able. By the end of the season, it should be Henry. Cohen and Haanif appear to have the "it" necessary to fill that role as well. Only Duane has really been in that situation at this level but it'd be great if a another player or two could emerge in crunch time.
- Duane can shoot but his mechanics are out of whack right now. As someone else mentioned, he's jumping too high on his outside shots. He shot 36.7% from 3 in BE play last season. That's not a fluke. He'll find his form.
- Loved seeing more aggressiveness from Cohen. His jumper is still very slow so showing ability to drive should open things up for him some on the perimeter.
- Henry's D needs a lot of work. Quite frankly, he's probably never really had to play D before. In HS, he was bigger and stronger than everyone. In AAU, there is no D. It's teachable so hopefully Wojo and the coaches can get him on track.
- In warm-ups, Fischer took several jumpers from the elbow, which I found interesting. I assume that's something he's been working on. If he could hit from 12-15 feet out with some rate of consistency, that would really open things up for Henry down low.
- Young, talented team. There's a lot of room for improvement but there's also a lot of promise. This team is going to look significantly better by Christmas.
I have one observation about that game last night.
It sucked. Really a part of me wanted that IUPUI shot at the end of regulation to fall because I didn't want to watch anymore. After two years of this crap, I was hoping for more. Yeah I know they are going to improve this year. (They had better...) We have a junior guard, and a sophomore guard who have been in the program for three years who still can't shoot. After two off-seasons of "skill development," they cannot put the ball in the basket. Furthermore, JJJ does only one thing well. He can drive to the basket with his right hand. Defense is better but it is still not great. No vision with the ball. Duane is better in both areas, but still.
I'm not sure I can do this much longer. Iowa is going to truck this team by 15.
I'm convinced Duane's struggles are more mental than anything. He's being asked to run a team for some longer stretches, which he's never done before at the college level. It's pretty clear he's rushing, and trying to do to much when he needs to slow down a bit.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 17, 2015, 06:13:38 AM
This is hilarious. Henry is averaging 19.5 ppg/9.5 rpg and people think he isn't NBA ready? Tell that to Trey Lyles, Noah Vonleh, Steven Adams, and Alex Len, all of whom put up far worse numbers and were lottery picks. The NBA drafts on potential and Henry has a ton of it. He was off last night and went for 18/3/3. That's a pretty darn good off night.
I don't necessarily agree with those saying Henry isn't a one-and-done after two games, but the counterpoint to your argument is located in under "Gardner, Davante [Out of Conference Performance]"
Quote from: Benny B on November 17, 2015, 09:01:37 AM
I don't necessarily agree with those saying Henry isn't a one-and-done after two games, but the counterpoint to your argument is located in under "Gardner, Davante [Out of Conference Performance]"
Anyone with eyeballs can see the difference between Henry Ellenson and Davante Gardner and why scouts like the former and basically ignored the latter.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 17, 2015, 08:51:55 AM
I have one observation about that game last night.
It sucked. Really a part of me wanted that IUPUI shot at the end of regulation to fall because I didn't want to watch anymore. After two years of this crap, I was hoping for more. Yeah I know they are going to improve this year. (They had better...) We have a junior guard, and a sophomore guard who have been in the program for three years who still can't shoot. After two off-seasons of "skill development," they cannot put the ball in the basket. Furthermore, JJJ does only one thing well. He can drive to the basket with his right hand. Defense is better but it is still not great. No vision with the ball. Duane is better in both areas, but still.
I'm not sure I can do this much longer. Iowa is going to truck this team by 15.
Or, that's when some pieces start to come together and some of our hopes begin to come true. And, because that's a possibility, fans like us will cope with the frustrations, even when it feels like we can't take it anymore. Hang in there, Sultan, sunshine and balloons will one day arrive!! Right? Please?
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 17, 2015, 08:51:55 AM
I have one observation about that game last night.
It sucked. Really a part of me wanted that IUPUI shot at the end of regulation to fall because I didn't want to watch anymore. After two years of this crap, I was hoping for more. Yeah I know they are going to improve this year. (They had better...) We have a junior guard, and a sophomore guard who have been in the program for three years who still can't shoot. After two off-seasons of "skill development," they cannot put the ball in the basket. Furthermore, JJJ does only one thing well. He can drive to the basket with his right hand. Defense is better but it is still not great. No vision with the ball. Duane is better in both areas, but still.
I'm not sure I can do this much longer. Iowa is going to truck this team by 15.
That's exactly how I felt at 10 pm with a 2 hour drive staring me in the face. And I'm personally putting much of the on floor responsibility on the 4 returning players. With the exception of Sandy, each needs to elevate their game pretty dramatically.
The single thing I did like was the 2-3 zone with Sandy and Cheatham up high. That length caused problems. Perhaps our young team is thinking a bit too much in the man, not performing, and allowing that to spill over into everything else.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 17, 2015, 09:03:01 AM
Anyone with eyeballs can see the difference between Henry Ellenson and Davante Gardner and why scouts like the former and basically ignored the latter.
Either my sarcasm detector is off or you didn't quite grasp my point that stats during OOC play can be deceiving whether you're Davante Gardner, Dominic James, Henry Ellenson or Jim McIlvaine.
Quote from: mug644 on November 17, 2015, 09:03:17 AM
Or, that's when some pieces start to come together and some of our hopes begin to come true. And, because that's a possibility, fans like us will cope with the frustrations, even when it feels like we can't take it anymore. Hang in there, Sultan, sunshine and balloons will one day arrive!! Right? Please?
By Thursday morning I will probably think we'll win by 15.
Quote from: Benny B on November 17, 2015, 09:06:01 AM
Either my sarcasm detector is off or you didn't quite grasp my point that stats during OOC play can be deceiving whether you're Davante Gardner, Dominic James, Henry Ellenson or Jim McIlvaine.
Well OK. Right now I'm just bitter.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 17, 2015, 08:42:25 AM
He never won anything in high school because he's from Rice-f**king-Lake.
That and he effin' broke his hand before their state championship game.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 17, 2015, 08:51:55 AM
I have one observation about that game last night.
It sucked. Really a part of me wanted that IUPUI shot at the end of regulation to fall because I didn't want to watch anymore. After two years of this crap, I was hoping for more. Yeah I know they are going to improve this year. (They had better...) We have a junior guard, and a sophomore guard who have been in the program for three years who still can't shoot. After two off-seasons of "skill development," they cannot put the ball in the basket. Furthermore, JJJ does only one thing well. He can drive to the basket with his right hand. Defense is better but it is still not great. No vision with the ball. Duane is better in both areas, but still.
I'm not sure I can do this much longer. Iowa is going to truck this team by 15.
I don't disagree with your comments. I would suggest that expectations for many people are and have been way out of line for this team. We have 5 Freshmen, and they are not the Fab 5. Many of them are going to be very good players at MU, just not likely to be this season. JJJ is a bust, I have said that all along. But, Wojo has to play him because he has experience and can occasionally get it done..
A .500 finish in conference would be a good step forward from last year. I am just going to enjoy watching the Freshmen learn to play and know that the building blocks are getting in place. Expecting more from such a young team, and coach, will lead to disappointment.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 17, 2015, 08:51:55 AM
I have one observation about that game last night.
It sucked. Really a part of me wanted that IUPUI shot at the end of regulation to fall because I didn't want to watch anymore. After two years of this crap, I was hoping for more. Yeah I know they are going to improve this year. (They had better...) We have a junior guard, and a sophomore guard who have been in the program for three years who still can't shoot. After two off-seasons of "skill development," they cannot put the ball in the basket. Furthermore, JJJ does only one thing well. He can drive to the basket with his right hand. Defense is better but it is still not great. No vision with the ball. Duane is better in both areas, but still.
I'm not sure I can do this much longer. Iowa is going to truck this team by 15.
I don't like this bizarro version of Sultan, bring back the old Sultan.
Too small of a sample size. It's been two games, relax. But I get it, over react is what fans do. All you have to do is go through the archives of scoop to know that.
Is it possible that because of the short turn around Wojo didn't plan a scouting report for these guys, had already started on Iowa figuring we'd win on talent and then we got caught with our pants down?
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 17, 2015, 08:51:55 AM
I have one observation about that game last night.
. .
I'm not sure I can do this much longer. Iowa is going to truck this team by 15.
You will be missed!
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on November 17, 2015, 10:02:45 AM
Is it possible that because of the short turn around Wojo didn't plan a scouting report for these guys, had already started on Iowa figuring we'd win on talent and then we got caught with our pants down?
Could be -- I am less worried about game prep at this point.
I am more worried about how Duane is pressing so hard to be the leader as opposed to letting things come to him. On the flip side I think Luke has the opportunity to be more vocal out there and demand the ball. Next I wish Wojo would get some more high/low going with HE & Luke as opposed to using the guard weave and keeping the ball on the perimeter. Finally I am encouraged that Wojo is willing to go zone but discouraged that the kids are once again struggling to learn the M2M. I hope this is a youth issue and not an instruction issue.
Ok enough of that -- we are going to kill Iowa on Thur.
Does anyone appreciates the improved FREE THROW shooting, almost a 1/3 of our total points.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on November 17, 2015, 10:02:45 AM
Is it possible that because of the short turn around Wojo didn't plan a scouting report for these guys, had already started on Iowa figuring we'd win on talent and then we got caught with our pants down?
It's highly unlikely that Wojo simply didn't plan a scouting report but I'd be willing to bet there has been much more extensive scouting on Iowa, and that MU will have more of Wojo's "system" in play on Thursday night. These early season games are basically a higher stakes preseason. Teams don't want to put too much on film so they create fairly vanilla gameplans and, though it might not always be pretty, more times than not, talent wins out. Looking back to just last season, MU played Ohio State and Michigan State better than they played Nebraska-Omaha and NJIT at home.
Quote from: Benny B on November 17, 2015, 09:01:37 AM
I don't necessarily agree with those saying Henry isn't a one-and-done after two games, but the counterpoint to your argument is located in under "Gardner, Davante [Out of Conference Performance]"
The bottom line is stats won't determine if he gets drafted or is a lottery pick. Anyone hand-wringing his lottery status because of a game against IUPUI in November in which he went for 18/3/3 is being simply inane.
Looking at Henry play, he is clearly, obviously a NBA talent. His defense isn't great, but they can teach that. His shot selection from deep is sometimes questionable, but they can teach that. But his natural rebounding, his physical frame, his ability to handle the ball at his size, and his raw play-making ability (that bounce pass to Luke) are the kind of things that very few players have and simply cannot be taught. Those things are why he will have the ability to choose if he is one-and-done, two-and-through, or plays longer.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on November 17, 2015, 10:02:45 AM
Is it possible that because of the short turn around Wojo didn't plan a scouting report for these guys, had already started on Iowa figuring we'd win on talent and then we got caught with our pants down?
I seriously doubt that they did not scout this team. Wojo did say that IUPI's bigmen shot better than they normally do. One thing that MU has trouble with is when the other team passes the ball into a cleared out middle of the court. That happen a lot with Belmont. I was wondering if that is the result of MU's offensive plan. MU in practice is basically playing against MU's offensive scheme. As a result the young players are not ready to react to something they have not seen in practice. The more they see it in actual games the better they should be in defending against it. I suspect that is why there are so many early upsets. New players do not know how to react to different offensive schemes thrown at them by seasoned teams.
Quote from: 79Warrior on November 17, 2015, 09:37:54 AM
A .500 finish in conference would be a good step forward from last year. I am just going to enjoy watching the Freshmen learn to play and know that the building blocks are getting in place. Expecting more from such a young team, and coach, will lead to disappointment.
I think the very first words of this thread are the most important - there are 348 DI teams with more experience than us and only 2 with less experience. Add to that (correct me if my memory is off) but Cheatham wasn't a point guard in high school so we also have a Frosh point that is learning a new position.
Indeed, the learning process will be fun to watch.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 17, 2015, 10:20:49 AM
It's highly unlikely that Wojo simply didn't plan a scouting report but I'd be willing to bet there has been much more extensive scouting on Iowa, and that MU will have more of Wojo's "system" in play on Thursday night. These early season games are basically a higher stakes preseason. Teams don't want to put too much on film so they create fairly vanilla gameplans and, though it might not always be pretty, more times than not, talent wins out. Looking back to just last season, MU played Ohio State and Michigan State better than they played Nebraska-Omaha and NJIT at home.
(as well as Bilsu and Frenn's) I didn't mean we didn't plan one but that we simply halfassed it I guess. Like didn't really investigate if this Combs guy could go off or if their F/C had an outside shot and such. Little things that we would've done for every game in the BE or against Iowa, UW etc. It's just been a theory of mine that being ill prepared is what we see as "playing down to your competition".
Quote from: jsglow on November 17, 2015, 09:05:39 AM
That's exactly how I felt at 10 pm with a 2 hour drive staring me in the face. And I'm personally putting much of the on floor responsibility on the 4 returning players. With the exception of Sandy, each needs to elevate their game pretty dramatically.
The single thing I did like was the 2-3 zone with Sandy and Cheatham up high. That length caused problems. Perhaps our young team is thinking a bit too much in the man, not performing, and allowing that to spill over into everything else.
Personally, I won't be surprised if any of the following happen:
1) Though not quite with Syracuse-levels of frequency, we're going to see a lot more 2-3 zone.
2) The guys start to put it together late against Iowa and finish the game, then go on to walk all over LSU and NC State, only to come back home and struggle against Jackson State (a junior-laden team that's returning 7 of their top 8 players in both scoring and minutes played in 14-15)
3) Sandy is bringing home conference hardware at the end of the season.
Quote from: Benny B on November 17, 2015, 10:29:18 AM
Personally, I won't be surprised if any of the following happen:
1) Though not quite with Syracuse-levels of frequency, we're going to see a lot more 2-3 zone.
2) The guys start to put it together late against Iowa and finish the game, then go on to walk all over LSU and NC State, only to come back home and struggle against Jackson State (a junior-laden team that's returning 7 of their top 8 players in both scoring and minutes played in 14-15)
3) Sandy is bringing home conference hardware at the end of the season.
Perhaps. I really think the team relaxed (in a positive way) once they were playing zone last night. The turnovers practically stopped. The horrible 'blown assignments' stopped. Sure we (I mean DU) still shot the ball for crap but I have to believe he'll work that out.
Quote from: Benny B on November 17, 2015, 10:29:18 AM
Personally, I won't be surprised if any of the following happen:
1) Though not quite with Syracuse-levels of frequency, we're going to see a lot more 2-3 zone.
2) The guys start to put it together late against Iowa and finish the game, then go on to walk all over LSU and NC State, only to come back home and struggle against Jackson State (a junior-laden team that's returning 7 of their top 8 players in both scoring and minutes played in 14-15)
3) Sandy is bringing home conference hardware at the end of the season.
1. I think they should. It's not about being macho and playing man "because that's what tough teams do." It's about putting your players in the best position to succeed. Some personnel is simply better playing zone, and this is one. It's already pretty obvious.
2. I would take this scenario in a heartbeat but I do have more than a few doubts.
3. We'll see!
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 16, 2015, 10:44:49 PM
Seems like Ellenson was handed the job. I'm not sure he makes our best 5 right now. His D is lacking. Hopefully Wojo's evaluation of Ellenson was correct as the season goes on. He put a lot of eggs in that basket.
This has to be the most entertaining post I've ever read on scoop.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 17, 2015, 09:07:33 AM
By Thursday morning I will probably think we'll win by 15.
Haha I love the honesty. That's how I am with this team.
The sky is falling!!!!.. 2 days later "we got this... Iowa sucks."
Ellenson has great athleticism and handle for his size but he has a long way to go. Clearly the potential is there but he needs a crash course on defense and post moves / awareness.
Duane is definitely a concern right now but I hope he gets it figured out. We need more out of him. Cohen too.
They have to figure out how to leverage Luke more. He is our best option offensively which is why they double him so quickly and we can't seem to find good opportunities out of that. Later in the game he seemed tired and was only getting touches at the top of the key.
I was expecting more out of Carter at this point. Otherwise the freshmen seem about where I would guess and Cheatam seems the furthest along (aside from Henry).
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on November 17, 2015, 10:02:45 AM
Is it possible that because of the short turn around Wojo didn't plan a scouting report for these guys, had already started on Iowa figuring we'd win on talent and then we got caught with our pants down?
No, it's not possible.
Couple of big dumb observations that I feel like posting: Anyone else struck by the fact how much we look like a group of skinny boys out there? Like if we walked onto a high school court nobody would say much other than that we're tall? I guess we have been spoiled by all the man children of the Buzz era with Otule, Ox, DJO, Crowder, etc.
Also, and this may be absolutely nothing as well: Anyone notice how Wojo is losing his mind on the sideline screaming "Get your hands up" on the defensive end when we went into zone and literally nobody is doing it?
Quote from: moomoo on November 17, 2015, 08:38:13 AM
I respectfully suggest you look at the stats of many recent one and dones who eventually became lottery picks.
The stats in their first two games were similar, and sometimes worse than, those of Henry.
First two games playing at a high level = he looked very good. And he will look better as the season progresses.
Silence! The moomoo speaks!
Henry is a terrible defensive player right now, that's the only reason he is not our best 5 walking in. There are two sides to the player coin, nobody thinks about defense.
Quote from: bilsu on November 17, 2015, 10:25:15 AM
MU in practice is basically playing against MU's offensive scheme. As a result the young players are not ready to react to something they have not seen in practice. The more they see it in actual games the better they should be in defending against it.
I think there is something to what Bilsu says. MU has terrible problems with the pick and roll and MU doesn't use the pick and roll much. So why not use HE in pick and roll a lot in practice and then make Luke guard it over and over again with HE and the other offensive player running all the options. I personally think HE would be devastating off the pick and roll moving toward the hoop or pulling up for a mid range shot.
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 17, 2015, 11:39:22 AM
Henry is a terrible defensive player right now, that's the only reason he is not our best 5 walking in. There are two sides to the player coin, nobody thinks about defense.
Really? I'm not seeing any lock-down defenders on the team that could replace him on the floor and effectively replace the offensive threat he provides on the defensive end of the ball.
Nobody captures the essence of Marquette basketball today better than Phil Lesh
https://www.youtube.com/v/PQ5-NGF3AAA
Quote from: Lighthouse 84 on November 17, 2015, 07:34:34 AM
The number of turnovers alone could be cited as costing us the Belmont game and almost costing us the IUPUI game. If our guards take care of the ball, lots of problems are solved. That said, we also give up way too many easy baskets, shoot threes poorly, don't feed the Fish enough and give up way too many offensive rebounds. Iowa will be a tough game to win unless we fix some or all of the issues.
People bitch about Du turning the ball over.....Combs had 10 TOs! During the game, I kept thinking about how he's killing MU. If I was a IUPUI fan, I'd have been thinking how much he needs to get a better handle or sit. Funny how one's perspective can change depending on the side from which you look.
missed no footers, turnovers, shooting the 3
i forget the color guy on the belmont game, but he came right out and said MU has to STOP shooting the trey. belmont got turgid every time they saw us outside the arc. square peg meet round hole? until they can burn someone a little bit, opposing teams are going to sag, pack the lane, and wait for the rebound. we've got 2 big guys and some good mid-range jump shooters
About the zone. To me it seemed like they were playing more of a 3-2 zone at times. The guy in the middle was cheating so far up. I'm not saying it was a bad thing, just an observation. They were leaving the coner open way more than the top of the key.
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 17, 2015, 11:39:22 AM
Henry is a terrible defensive player right now, that's the only reason he is not our best 5 walking in. There are two sides to the player coin, nobody thinks about defense.
So how'd you feel about Derrick? ;)
Couple of thoughts from last night...
Duane was driving me crazy with how loose he was with the ball, but I also turned to my buddy and said he is also going to hit a big shot before this game is over. He does not lack for confidence.
Anyone saying this team isn't going to get better is nuts. Surprised nobody pointed out that both Henry and Duane seemed to have learned from last game already. On the last MU possession Henry has the ball and looks like he might try to barrel through to the hoop, but instead kicks it to Duane (different from last game) and Duane rather than settle for the jumper (like last game) goes hard to the hoop and gets the foul.
So yes I think they are improving already.
Duane I think gets frustrated but not the same as lacking confidence.
Henry's D leaves much to be desired at this point, even from the weak side he didn't seem to have much of an appetite to try to come in and swat some of those shots out.
Quote from: naginiF on November 17, 2015, 10:26:05 AM
I think the very first words of this thread are the most important - there are 348 DI teams with more experience than us and only 2 with less experience. Add to that (correct me if my memory is off) but Cheatham wasn't a point guard in high school so we also have a Frosh point that is learning a new position.
Indeed, the learning process will be fun to watch.
All those years we had good to great guards and no bigs. Now we have bigs but our guards are lacking.
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 17, 2015, 11:39:22 AM
Henry is a terrible defensive player right now, that's the only reason he is not our best 5 walking in. There are two sides to the player coin, nobody thinks about defense.
Just out of curiosity, Stone, who do you think ARE our best 5 right now?
Quote from: MomofMUltiples on November 17, 2015, 04:21:43 PM
Just out of curiosity, Stone, who do you think ARE our best 5 right now?
+1
Well if we are going to play man to man defense my starting 5 would be:
Duane
Haanif
Anim
Cohen
Luke Fischer
I'd be interested in seeing HE's defensive metrics.
Now if we play zone then Henry is in our top 5 because we can hide his lack of understanding/anticipation/quickness in help defense in man to man. Henry has been doing more oley bullsh.t than Rick Dorn on D.
Needs to slide his feet way better. He can obviously get better but he is nowhere near NBA level or major DI level defensively right now.
Haanif has a great skill set, and he is a tough finisher. He plays in control which is why Wojo plays him more than Traci. That said, once around the Big East and coaches will have hm scouted as he goes to his left almost every time. He uses his right hand primarily on that crossover baseline move he uses. He is Vander Blue as he can find the seams off the bounce. He is not the PG of the future, IMO, especially once scouted.
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 17, 2015, 02:34:25 PM
So how'd you feel about Derrick? ;)
Please don't do this
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 17, 2015, 07:44:49 PM
Haanif has a great skill set, and he is a tough finisher. He plays in control which is why Wojo plays him more than Traci. That said, once around the Big East and coaches will have hm scouted as he goes to his left almost every time. He uses his right hand primarily on that crossover baseline move he uses. He is Vander Blue as he can find the seams off the bounce. He is not the PG of the future, IMO, especially once scouted.
I really think you're right. Traci has a ways to go but he's a true Point. The question I might ask myself in a few weeks is whether Duane should play Point with Haanif and Sandy at the 2/3 when Traci's not in the game. I haven't yet seen how we maximize Duane. We need to get him comfortable and effective. So far, he's not.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on November 17, 2015, 04:07:19 PM
All those years we had good to great guards and no bigs. Now we have bigs but our guards are lacking.
Our guards are young. We don't know yet if they are "lacking."
Three months from now -- or certainly a year from now -- we might be saying these same guards are a major strength. We'll see.
Quote from: Benny B on November 18, 2015, 10:37:00 AM
Or Ollie from Hoosiers.
Always mist up when he makes those free throws.
Quote from: tower912 on November 18, 2015, 10:41:26 AM
Always mist up when he makes those free throws.
I'd kill a kitten to have someone who shoots 100% from the line on this team.
(I'm willing to chalk that first one up to Ollie being shoved into the game unexpectedly... i.e. no time to warm-up, get loose, etc.)
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 17, 2015, 07:44:49 PM
Haanif has a great skill set, and he is a tough finisher. He plays in control which is why Wojo plays him more than Traci. That said, once around the Big East and coaches will have hm scouted as he goes to his left almost every time. He uses his right hand primarily on that crossover baseline move he uses. He is Vander Blue as he can find the seams off the bounce. He is not the PG of the future, IMO, especially once scouted.
I really like Haanif for the reasons you outline. While I agree he may hit a bump in the road after being scouted, I am confident he will make the adjustments. I also think his vision is excellent and overall his ceiling is very high. I think he will do a great job running our offense.
A few short years ago, Buzz was mocked for not playing freshmen. They aren't ready, he said. Balderdash said many scoopers. They will play when they understand their defensive responsibilities and what is and isn't a good shot, he said. Buzz is holding them back, screamed the peanut gallery.
This year, out of necessity, the freshmen are playing. Top 10 class, best in a generation. Why aren't they instantly advanced, freshmen should be finished products, opines scoop. How come they don't play defense well or understand their offensive roles?, scoopers ask.
Kentucky of the last few years has skewed perceptions and expectations for what freshmen are and can reasonably accomplish. Newsflash, Kentucky is the outlier. What MU is going through right now is much closer to the historic norm.
Quote from: tower912 on November 18, 2015, 02:50:18 PM
A few short years ago, Buzz was mocked for not playing freshmen. They aren't ready, he said. Balderdash said many scoopers. They will play when they understand their defensive responsibilities and what is and isn't a good shot, he said. Buzz is holding them back, screamed the peanut gallery.
This year, out of necessity, the freshmen are playing. Top 10 class, best in a generation. Why aren't they instantly advanced, freshmen should be finished products, opines scoop. How come they don't play defense well or understand their offensive roles?, scoopers ask.
Kentucky of the last few years has skewed perceptions and expectations for what freshmen are and can reasonably accomplish. Newsflash, Kentucky is the outlier. What MU is going through right now is much closer to the historic norm.
See though, I'm in the camp that if you have a bad, or even a mediocre team throw the freshman in there. Trial by fire and let them develop. Last year was a bad team and 2 years ago was extremely mediocre. I don't think Carlino was bad but he was a rent a player on a bad team.
Quote from: tower912 on November 18, 2015, 02:50:18 PM
A few short years ago, Buzz was mocked for not playing freshmen. They aren't ready, he said. Balderdash said many scoopers. They will play when they understand their defensive responsibilities and what is and isn't a good shot, he said. Buzz is holding them back, screamed the peanut gallery.
This year, out of necessity, the freshmen are playing. Top 10 class, best in a generation. Why aren't they instantly advanced, freshmen should be finished products, opines scoop. How come they don't play defense well or understand their offensive roles?, scoopers ask.
Kentucky of the last few years has skewed perceptions and expectations for what freshmen are and can reasonably accomplish. Newsflash, Kentucky is the outlier. What MU is going through right now is much closer to the historic norm.
In all fairness the 2013 class on paper was better top to bottom than the 2015 class. Outside of Henry this current class is not the best in a generation. Haanif is great but his and everyone else's talent level is where Crean and buzz were recruiting.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on November 18, 2015, 03:11:46 PM
In all fairness the 2013 class on paper was better top to bottom than the 2015 class. Outside of Henry this current class is not the best in a generation. Haanif is great but his and everyone else's talent level is where Crean and buzz were recruiting.
That's a good point. A Top 10 recruiting class does not mean that there are 5 highly-touted freshmen (like at UK, Duke, etc). It typically means that there's one top 10 guy (HE) and another top 50 guy (HC) and their "grades" skew the entire class. Anim and Heldt aren't going to see much time come conference play and it's questionable whether Carter will play more than a few spot minutes. They're all part of the "top 10 recruiting class" but they're not all highly-touted recruits. Eventually, those players will be contributors but they're simply not ready yet, regardless of where the entire class ranks.
Key, MacIlvanie & Lotgerman were 11-18 their freshmen year. They made the NCAA tournament their junior &senior years.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on November 18, 2015, 03:11:46 PM
In all fairness the 2013 class on paper was better top to bottom than the 2015 class. Outside of Henry this current class is not the best in a generation. Haanif is great but his and everyone else's talent level is where Crean and buzz were recruiting.
Yeah, really not sure about that.
Henry, Haanif, Traci, Heldt, Sacar vs
vs
Deonte, Duane, JjJ, Dawson, Jameel
The top is definitely better in 2015, and the very bottom is actually also better in 2015 (Heldt or Sacar vs Dawson). Maybe I can hear an argument that the class in total on paper was better, but I still think the extremely high value of HE brings up 2015 too high.
But definitely, "top to bottom" doesn't apply here.
Quote from: WarriorInNYC on November 18, 2015, 04:25:44 PM
Yeah, really not sure about that.
Henry, Haanif, Traci, Heldt, Sacar vs
vs
Deonte, Duane, JjJ, Dawson, Jameel
The top is definitely better in 2015, and the very bottom is actually also better in 2015 (Heldt or Sacar vs Dawson). Maybe I can hear an argument that the class in total on paper was better, but I still think the extremely high value of HE brings up 2015 too high.
But definitely, "top to bottom" doesn't apply here.
I should have been clearer since I consider our 2013 class who we have now which is Duane, JJJ, Fisher. That class is rated at .971566 on paper. But since we're doing the original classes:
via 247 this year we had an average rating of .9351 vs .93406 in 2013. So not better but certainly on par so that expectations should be the same, unless of course that .00104 rating is the real difference maker to certain people.
via ESPN our current class's average grade is 83.8 while our 2013 class (original without McKay since they don't rate jucos) is rated 84.7... I wouldn't trust ESPN though since on paper they have our 2009 class (also top 10 but not including DJO or Buycks) rated 90.5 and Maymonn and Cadougan ended up ok while Mbao and Williams were... something.
Quote from: bilsu on November 18, 2015, 08:55:03 AM
We be 2-0 with Derrick
I don't disagree at all. I just have had enough of this particular topic to last me for a while.
Quote from: bilsu on November 18, 2015, 03:32:13 PM
Key, MacIlvanie & Lotgerman were 11-18 their freshmen year. They made the NCAA tournament their junior &senior years.
They'd have made the Final Four as freshmen if Izzo was coaching 'em.