MUScoop

Cavs' Kyrie Irving to Miss Rest of NBA Finals for Knee Surgery
Cleveland Cavaliers point guard Kyrie Irving will miss the rest of the NBA Finals with a fractured left knee cap, and will have surgery that will require a recovery of three to four months, the team said Friday.  Irving limped off the court during overtime of last night's Game 1 loss at the Golden State Warriors.

No Kevin Love and no now Kyrie ... series over, no way Cleveland wins.

Quote from: Heisenberg on June 05, 2015, 04:34:26 PM
Cavs' Kyrie Irving to Miss Rest of NBA Finals for Knee Surgery
Cleveland Cavaliers point guard Kyrie Irving will miss the rest of the NBA Finals with a fractured left knee cap, and will have surgery that will require a recovery of three to four months, the team said Friday.  Irving limped off the court during overtime of last night's Game 1 loss at the Golden State Warriors.

No Kevin Love and no now Kyrie ... series over, no way Cleveland wins.

They had their chance at the end of regulation. James launches a brick at the end and game and it goes to OT. Down goes Kyrie in OT, down goes the game and down go the Cavs in this series.

The Cavs weren't winning the series anyways.

Thompson and Green couldn't have played any worse. Curry was "average" for himself. James, Irving, and Mosgov all played as well as they possibly could've played...and they still lost. It MIGHT have been a 5 game series with Irving. Now it's a sweep.

And the Cavs have been playing better without Love than when Love was in the lineup. Now Love would obviously help as a scorer without Irving. But the Warriors have been the best team in the NBA the entire year and made it to the Finals with just as much ease as the Cavs did...but they did it in the West.

PS, why in the world is this in Hanging at the Al?

Here's an opportunity for James to prove his worth, hey?

It's really unfortunate.  While I am rooting for GS, a series against a fully loaded Cavs would have been nice. Losing two top players is simply too much to overcome.

Is there a Marquette alum on the Cavs or Warriors that I don't know about?

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 05, 2015, 07:25:14 PM
Is there a Marquette alum on the Cavs or Warriors that I don't know about?

JB is a Cavalier asst. coach, hey?

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 05, 2015, 07:25:14 PM
Is there a Marquette alum on the Cavs or Warriors that I don't know about?

It doesn't count that Chones used to play with the Cavs and Whitehead with the Warriors?

I wanted to see a good series, so I'm bummed by this.

LeBron bricked that potential winner, as an earlier commenter said, but he has made more of a postseason run with less around him than has any great player in a long time.

Without Love and with Irving limping around, the Cavs were a lottery team if they had a "less-great" All-Star (say Carmelo, or Klay Thompson) rather than the greatest player in the world.

Quote from: MU82 on June 05, 2015, 10:42:02 PM
I wanted to see a good series, so I'm bummed by this.

LeBron bricked that potential winner, as an earlier commenter said, but he has made more of a postseason run with less around him than has any great player in a long time.

Without Love and with Irving limping around, the Cavs were a lottery team if they had a "less-great" All-Star (say Carmelo, or Klay Thompson) rather than the greatest player in the world.

Except that the Cavs weren't without Irving or Love for the regular season, so with Thompson or Carmelo instead of LeBron they're still a top 3 seed just like they were this year.

Quote from: wadesworld on June 05, 2015, 10:44:44 PM
Except that the Cavs weren't without Irving or Love for the regular season, so with Thompson or Carmelo instead of LeBron they're still a top 3 seed just like they were this year.

Not a chance.

Kevin Love is no Chris Bosh. Arguably the worst inside defender in the league who wants to chuck 3 pointers all day. That works fine if you play for a team that will never sniff the playoffs (Minnesota), but not so much on a good team. If I had a choice on a good team, I'd play Thompson more minutes than Love hands down. Thompson is a better rebounder & way, way better defender. And Love only averaged 6 pts. a game more than Thompson while taking way more shots.

But LeBron is so superior that they still had a chance to win it all until Kyrie went down.

Quote from: brandx on June 05, 2015, 11:33:20 PM
Not a chance.

Kevin Love is no Chris Bosh. Arguably the worst inside defender in the league who wants to chuck 3 pointers all day. That works fine if you play for a team that will never sniff the playoffs (Minnesota), but not so much on a good team. If I had a choice on a good team, I'd play Thompson more minutes than Love hands down. Thompson is a better rebounder & way, way better defender. And Love only averaged 6 pts. a game more than Thompson while taking way more shots.

But LeBron is so superior that they still had a chance to win it all until Kyrie went down.

...the Cavs still had Tristian Thompson when Love was healthy.  Love got benched when it got down to crunch time when he was healthy as it was.  You really think a team with Mosgov, Thompson, Shumpert, a healthy Irving, a healthy Love, Smith, and a guy like Clay Thompson would be in the lottery?  In the Eastern Conference, no less?  I mean, we're all entitled to our opinions, but...

Mosgov, Thompson, Shumpert and Smith are nothing but role players.  Irving and Love are good, but neither were in the playoffs prior to this year.  Lottery?  Perhaps not, but they wouldn't be very good.

Lebron really is that good.

Quote from: wadesworld on June 05, 2015, 11:54:11 PM
...the Cavs still had Tristian Thompson when Love was healthy.  Love got benched when it got down to crunch time when he was healthy as it was.  You really think a team with Mosgov, Thompson, Shumpert, a healthy Irving, a healthy Love, Smith, and a guy like Clay Thompson would be in the lottery?  In the Eastern Conference, no less?  I mean, we're all entitled to our opinions, but...

You misunderstood me, Wades.

I didn't say they'd be in the lottery with Carmelo instead of Lebron. I said they wouldn't be a top 3 seed.

Quote from: brandx on June 06, 2015, 10:41:03 AM
You misunderstood me, Wades.

I didn't say they'd be in the lottery with Carmelo instead of Lebron. I said they wouldn't be a top 3 seed.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 06, 2015, 07:05:14 AM
Mosgov, Thompson, Shumpert and Smith are nothing but role players.  Irving and Love are good, but neither were in the playoffs prior to this year.  Lottery?  Perhaps not, but they wouldn't be very good.

Lebron really is that good.

Yes, LeBron is that good. But you have a "big 3" of a health Love, a healthy Irving, and a guy like Klay Thompson and you don't need anything more than "just role players." Those 3 with Tristian Thompson, Mosgov, Smith, and Shumpert can defend inside and on the perimeter, can rebound the heck out of the ball, and can spread the floor offensively and knock down the 3. There is no way in hell that the Raptors, Wizards, Bucks, Celtics, or Nets finish above the Cavs this year if the Cavs trot out a starting lineup of Irving, Smith, Thompson, Love, and Mosgov and bring in Thristian Thompson and Shumpert off the bench. They are absolutely a top 3 team in the East. The East is a complete joke, and that'd still be the best "Big 3" (Wall, Beal, Gortat or Butler, Rose, Gasol are the only 2 close, but Irving and Wall cancel out, Klay is better than Beal, Love better than Gortat and Irving better than Rose, Butler and Klay cancel out, and Pau maybe a hair better than Love)  in the East, with a solid supporting cast. The Cavs would still be the 2 seed and still be a better team than the Hawks, in my opinion.

Now, take LeBron off the team and don't replace him with anyone? Then sure, they're probably a 6 seed.

Quote from: wadesworld on June 06, 2015, 12:23:21 PM
Yes, LeBron is that good. But you have a "big 3" of a health Love, a healthy Irving, and a guy like Klay Thompson and you don't need anything more than "just role players." Those 3 with Tristian Thompson, Mosgov, Smith, and Shumpert can defend inside and on the perimeter, can rebound the heck out of the ball, and can spread the floor offensively and knock down the 3. There is no way in hell that the Raptors, Wizards, Bucks, Celtics, or Nets finish above the Cavs this year if the Cavs trot out a starting lineup of Irving, Smith, Thompson, Love, and Mosgov and bring in Thristian Thompson and Shumpert off the bench. They are absolutely a top 3 team in the East. The East is a complete joke, and that'd still be the best "Big 3" (Wall, Beal, Gortat or Butler, Rose, Gasol are the only 2 close, but Irving and Wall cancel out, Clay is better than Beal, Love better than Gortat and Irving better than Rose, Butler and Clay cancel out, and Pau maybe a hair better than Love)  in the East, with a solid supporting cast. The Cavs would still be the 2 seed and still be a better team than the Hawks, in my opinion.

Now, take LeBron off the team and don't replace him with anyone? Then sure, they're probably a 6 seed.

So you think that if you replace Lebron James with Klay Thompson, they would only move down from a #2 seed to a #3 seed?  Do I have that right?

I personally think you are completely overrating players like Mozgov, Smith and Shumpert.  They are the equivalent of Joel Anthony, Norris Cole and Mario Chalmers from the Heat teams from the past four years.  You know...that Heat team that went from the #1 seed and the NBA playoffs to out of the playoffs completely (in the East) after Lebron left.  Klay Thompson is good, but he's not just-one-step-lower-than-Lebron good.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 06, 2015, 12:32:10 PM

So you think that if you replace Lebron James with Klay Thompson, they would only move down from a #2 seed to a #3 seed?  Do I have that right?

I personally think you are completely overrating players like Mozgov, Smith and Shumpert.  They are the equivalent of Joel Anthony, Norris Cole and Mario Chalmers from the Heat teams from the past four years.  You know...that Heat team that went from the #1 seed and the NBA playoffs to out of the playoffs completely (in the East) after Lebron left.  Klay Thompson is good, but he's not just-one-step-lower-than-Lebron good.

Yes, I think that is right. Mosgov, Smith, and Shumpert are a ton better than Cole, Chalmers, and Anthony. Better shooters, better defenders, and more athletic.

Who do you think would surpass the Cavs in the East?

Also, complete apples to oranges comparison. Wade is a year older and he's not getting better with age, plus he only played in 66 games, Bosh played in 44 games this season, and the Heat didn't add a Klay Thompson to replace LeBron. And they nearly made the Playoffs despite all that. If you have a healthy Bosh, a healthy Wade, and add Klay Thompson then I think the Heat are by far better than the Bucks (the 6 seed). Take into account that at this point in their careers Kyrie is better than Wade, Love is better than Bosh, and the Cavs supporting cast is head and shoulders better than the Heat's and I don't see any way you can compare those situations.

Quote from: wadesworld on June 06, 2015, 01:24:26 PM
Yes, I think that is right. Mosgov, Smith, and Shumpert are a ton better than Cole, Chalmers, and Anthony. Better shooters, better defenders, and more athletic.

I completely disagree.  All six of these guys are simply role players without Lebron.

Quote from: wadesworld on June 06, 2015, 01:24:26 PM
Who do you think would surpass the Cavs in the East?

Chicago, Atlanta, Milwaukee, Toronto and Washington.  Probably Indiana and maybe even Brooklyn.

Quote from: wadesworld on June 06, 2015, 01:24:26 PM
Also, complete apples to oranges comparison. Wade is a year older and he's not getting better with age, plus he only played in 66 games, Bosh played in 44 games this season, and the Heat didn't add a Klay Thompson to replace LeBron. And they nearly made the Playoffs despite all that. If you have a healthy Bosh, a healthy Wade, and add Klay Thompson then I think the Heat are by far better than the Bucks (the 6 seed). Take into account that at this point in their careers Kyrie is better than Wade, Love is better than Bosh, and the Cavs supporting cast is head and shoulders better than the Heat's and I don't see any way you can compare those situations.

You are overrating Klay Thompson.  He's not good enough to play the role you are expecting him to.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 06, 2015, 04:57:32 PM
I completely disagree.  All six of these guys are simply role players without Lebron.

Right.  But not every "simple role player" is the same.  Shumpert is probably the worst of the Cav's 3 role players listed, and Chamlers?  Maybe Cole?  Would be the Heat's best.  Neither of those guys are as good as Iman Shumpert.  So the Cavs would have the 3 best role players.

And again, it's a complete apples to oranges comparison.  Wade played under 80% of the Heat's games.  Bosh played just over 50% of the Heat's games.  Klay Thompson played 0% of the Heat's games.  The Heat STILL missed the Playoffs by just ONE game.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 06, 2015, 04:57:32 PM
Chicago, Atlanta, Milwaukee, Toronto and Washington.  Probably Indiana and maybe even Brooklyn.

Wow.  That is absurd.  You really think a lineup of MCW, Middleton, Giannis, Ersan, and Henson (or Zaza if you wish) would be better than a lineup of Kyrie, JR Smith, Klay, Love, and Mosgov?  The Bucks would have the advantage at one position (shooting guard) and that is it.  In both an entire regular season and in a Playoff series the Cavs would fare much better than the Bucks.  Milwaukee wouldn't even be better than the Cavs if you just removed LBJ from the Cavs and replaced him with nobody.  Love and Irving are head and shoulders above anybody on the Bucks team.  Anybody below the Bucks at that point really shouldn't be mentioned.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 06, 2015, 04:57:32 PM
You are overrating Klay Thompson.  He's not good enough to play the role you are expecting him to.

Klay would be the 2nd best player on the Cavs and a top 5 player in the Eastern Conference.  Klay was the 9th leading scorer in the NBA.  Take LBJ out of the league and that makes him 8th.  I'm not sure what role you think I'm expecting him to fill, but I think he would be plenty capable of filling the role that I think he could fill considering he is filling that role as we speak.  He would have to do absolutely nothing more than what he does in GS in order for the Cavs to remain a top 3 team in the East.

Well, I guess I will simply say I disagree with your assessment of the Cavs talent, and will no longer bother you with my absurd opinions.

Quote from: wadesworld on June 06, 2015, 05:30:24 PM


Klay would be the 2nd best player on the Cavs and a top 5 player in the Eastern Conference.  Klay was the 9th leading scorer in the NBA.  Take LBJ out of the league and that makes him 8th.  I'm not sure what role you think I'm expecting him to fill, but I think he would be plenty capable of filling the role that I think he could fill considering he is filling that role as we speak.  He would have to do absolutely nothing more than what he does in GS in order for the Cavs to remain a top 3 team in the East.

Klay would not score as big on most teams. GS runs a very up tempo offense. Much different offense in Cleveland.

Quote from: brandx on June 06, 2015, 10:23:20 PM
Klay would not score as big on most teams. GS runs a very up tempo offense. Much different offense in Cleveland.

LeBron James averages 19 shot attempts per game.  Some of those would go to Kyrie, Love, and even JR and Shumpert, but those shots have to go somewhere.  And it's not like anybody can really play a slow it down style in the NBA with a 24 second shot clock.  Sure, his scoring may dip a little bit, but they could also rise with him being the best shooter on the team (as opposed to 2nd best like he is on GS).

Really, it doesn't matter.  It's all theoretical and the real answer is "nobody knows."  I just think that the NBA is entirely star driven, and if you put Kyrie, Love, and Klay Thompson on one team in the Eastern Conference there are no better "Big 3s" than that in the East.  And that will take you quite far.

I don't think there's a team in the league that Klay wouldn't average 20 ppg on. He shoots it like Steve Novak and is almost as tall but is athletic and can defend. 3rd Team All NBA.

I guess the Cavs do have a chance even without Irving.

Steph Curry shot the ball like Curry Kirkpatrick tonight.

If the cavs win this series (which I don't think they will), Lebron moves into the conversation for 2nd greatest player ever with Kareem & Bill Russell.

Quote from: brandx on June 07, 2015, 10:32:45 PM
If the cavs win this series (which I don't think they will), Lebron moves into the conversation for 2nd greatest player ever with Kareem & Bill Russell.

so hard to compare through the generations but for my money he's already the second best of all-time.  conversation on best ever at a later date but I think we'll ultimately have it. 

If The Cavs win this series, LeBron is the greatest player of all time....homers can suck it.

No way in hell Jordan could lead his team to the NBA title missing about 35 points from the starting lineup, including the starting point guard against the clear best team in the league all season long.

Unlikely to happen, but I don't recall Jordan ever having to go through this type of adversity.  One year in one game he had a bad cold.

The Cavs stole a game in GS.   That is the goal of any team without home court advantage.   Lebron is putting up video game numbers (though he is still missing a ton of shots).   He is already in the 'all-time' conversations.  Kerr needs to exploit his biggest advantage, his depth.   BTW, it is genuinely fun to watch Curry.

Quote from: tower912 on June 08, 2015, 05:23:26 AM
The Cavs stole a game in GS.   That is the goal of any team without home court advantage.   Lebron is putting up video game numbers (though he is still missing a ton of shots).   He is already in the 'all-time' conversations.  Kerr needs to exploit his biggest advantage, his depth.   BTW, it is genuinely fun to watch Curry.

And they came about 0.25" (Shumpert's shot at the buzzer at the end of regulation in game 1) from stealing both of them.  Damn!

Like you said, the goal of the road team is to steal one of the two games.  Mission accomplished.  The Cavs still have a serious uphill battle ahead of them, but at least there is hope that they'll make it a respectable and fun series.

I think it's a shame that some people are so invested in saying Michael Jordan was the best ever (I think he was), that they feel a need to try to knock Lebron down to protect MJ's legacy.  It doesn't need protecting.  Lebron is incredible, and people (even MJ fans) should just enjoy and appreciate watching him play.

And I agree about Curry.  Golden State is a very likable team and I think I'd probably be rooting for them against anyone other than the Cavs.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 07, 2015, 11:10:15 PM
If The Cavs win this series, LeBron is the greatest player of all time....homers can suck it.

This is correct. If he can win a title with this sorry bunch around him it would be unbelievable. It won't happen, but the fact they managed to win a road game in the series should be causing people to bow down before him.

Michael, Magic and LeBron. Not necessarily in that order.

Quote from: tower912 on June 08, 2015, 05:23:26 AM
The Cavs stole a game in GS.   That is the goal of any team without home court advantage.   Lebron is putting up video game numbers (though he is still missing a ton of shots).   He is already in the 'all-time' conversations.  Kerr needs to exploit his biggest advantage, his depth.   BTW, it is genuinely fun to watch Curry.

Lebron is missing a lot of shots, but he doesn't have many good choices.  Shumpert and Dellavedova finally hit something in overtime, but JR Smith is a sack of garbage.  Seriously, Lebron might win a title with a backcourt whose regulars include JR Smith, Iman Shumpert and Mathew Dellavedova.

Quote from: MU82 on June 08, 2015, 08:20:09 AM
Michael, Magic and LeBron. Not necessarily in that order.

I love Magic, but his defense was terrible compared to the other two. 

I don't think the Cavs win this series.   However, if they do, can anyone name another team that won a championship that was so dominated by one player and with such a weak surrounding cast?   This would catapult Lebron up the 'all time' lists. 

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 08, 2015, 08:21:53 AM

I love Magic, but his defense was terrible compared to the other two. 

I agree. I guess I'd argue that Magic did so much so well offensively that it overcame his relative shortcomings defensively.

Obviously, several others deserve mention in any "greatest hoopster ever" argument, but I have come to the realization that LeBron has moved up to the point where he'd be on my Bkb Mount Rushmore.

My fourth? Ooh, that's a tough one? Russell and, for the most part Chamberlain, were before my time as a fan so while I know they were great I didn't get to "experience" them. Bird? Maybe. Kobe or Shaq? Nah. Kornel David? Now we're talkin'!

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 07, 2015, 11:10:15 PM

Unlikely to happen, but I don't recall Jordan ever having to go through this type of adversity.  One year in one game he had a bad cold.

That Michael Jordan.... what a bum.   Is it fair to say now that he was a bust?

I have no doubt if you insert Magic, Jordan and James in different eras they would have dominated in much the same manner they did in their respective eras.

I say that because you can't insert today's stats into yesterday's game and vice versa and declare one is better than the other.   James in the 1980s would have developed the way players did during that period and would have been on a team created under the basketball economics of the time as would Magic been under today's conditions if he was playing today.  All dominate(d) their eras but the era has also shaped how their skills developed and implemented.

Quote from: MU82 on June 08, 2015, 08:49:01 AM
I agree. I guess I'd argue that Magic did so much so well offensively that it overcame his relative shortcomings defensively.

Obviously, several others deserve mention in any "greatest hoopster ever" argument, but I have come to the realization that LeBron has moved up to the point where he'd be on my Bkb Mount Rushmore.

My fourth? Ooh, that's a tough one? Russell and, for the most part Chamberlain, were before my time as a fan so while I know they were great I didn't get to "experience" them. Bird? Maybe. Kobe or Shaq? Nah. Kornel David? Now we're talkin'!

Magic
Jordan
Lebron
Duncan
Chamberlain

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 07, 2015, 11:10:15 PM
If The Cavs win this series, LeBron is the greatest player of all time....homers can suck it.

No way in hell Jordan could lead his team to the NBA title missing about 35 points from the starting lineup, including the starting point guard against the clear best team in the league all season long.

Unlikely to happen, but I don't recall Jordan ever having to go through this type of adversity.  One year in one game he had a bad cold.

You hate the NBA, you don't even watch the NBA, yet you have strong opinions on the NBA. Do you review movies you don't see and book you don't read, too?

I think the Jordan comparisons are unfair.  Lebron isn't Michael Jordan, who was a pure 2-guard.  Lebron can't really be defined by position.  He can play point, wing, post up power forward.  He clearly isn't as good a shooter as Jordan, but he's got parts of his game that Jordan didn't have either. 

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 08, 2015, 09:11:43 AM

Magic
Jordan
Lebron
Duncan
Chamberlain

Why doesn't anyone remember the all time leading scorer in NBA history

Quote from: RushmoreAcademy on June 08, 2015, 08:49:58 AM


That Michael Jordan.... what a bum.   Is it fair to say now that he was a bust?

Never said it, not sure why you are.  He is one of the greatest players of all-time.  

LeBron and Magic are the only two that could play all five positions effectively if needed.  LeBron is one of the few that has taken total stiffs to the finals....twice.  I don't expect them to win this, I won't be watching either.  I did see some of the highlights last night....for those that love the officiating in the NBA, that was dreadful at the end in the highlights I saw.  Dreadful.

http://deadspin.com/lebron-james-played-the-best-kind-of-hero-ball-1709774673

I'm a huge fan of LeBron's game. He's in the team photo for the best ever. That said, it wasn't so much his brilliance that stole game 2 as it was Golden State's ineptness. I don't think hitting 11 out of 35 from the field and missing a game winning lay up at the end of regulation enhances his reputation. Golden State was awful, and Curry was God-awful, all world awful.

Quote from: hairy worthen on June 08, 2015, 09:18:57 AM
Why doesn't anyone remember the all time leading scorer in NBA history

I remember him.  Played a long time with a lot of great players.  Cracks my top 10, but not my top five.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 08, 2015, 09:28:44 AM

I remember him.  Played a long time with a lot of great players.  Cracks my top 10, but not my top five.

Agreed. The all-time hits leader isn't one of my top 5 ballplayers of all-time, and the all-time rushing leader isn't in my top 5 football players of all-time, either.

Quote from: MU82 on June 08, 2015, 10:34:56 AM
Agreed. The all-time hits leader isn't one of my top 5 ballplayers of all-time, and the all-time rushing leader isn't in my top 5 football players of all-time, either.

Hell, the all-time points leader at MU wouldn't be in my top 25 players in MU history.

Quote from: MU82 on June 08, 2015, 08:20:09 AM
Michael, Magic and LeBron. Not necessarily in that order.

I always had Michael clearly #1. Then Kareem as 2 .

I had Lebron in the mix for top 5 with Russell, Magic, Bird, Wilt & Duncan. If they win the series, I would probably put him as #2.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 08, 2015, 09:20:00 AM
Never said it, not sure why you are.  He is one of the greatest players of all-time.  

LeBron and Magic are the only two that could play all five positions effectively if needed.  LeBron is one of the few that has taken total stiffs to the finals....twice.  I don't expect them to win this, I won't be watching either.  I did see some of the highlights last night....for those that love the officiating in the NBA, that was dreadful at the end in the highlights I saw.  Dreadful.

http://deadspin.com/lebron-james-played-the-best-kind-of-hero-ball-1709774673

If we're going to call him the best ever if he takes a crappy team and wins with them, then he also has to be knocked when he takes a great team and loses with them.   Twice the Heat lost in the finals, and that team was outstanding.   Yes, the Spurs were great as well, but the Mavs were highly beatable.
I agree it's not fair to Lebron to compare them.  He is an amazing player.  Jordan just did the most important thing best, and that's win.  And he did it all the time.
I could even see an argument for taking Lebron for a season, but for a series, or even for a game, but don't think it's close.   It's a fun argument to have tho.

Quote from: RushmoreAcademy on June 09, 2015, 08:56:02 AM


If we're going to call him the best ever if he takes a crappy team and wins with them, then he also has to be knocked when he takes a great team and loses with them.   Twice the Heat lost in the finals, and that team was outstanding.   Yes, the Spurs were great as well, but the Mavs were highly beatable.
I agree it's not fair to Lebron to compare them.  He is an amazing player.  Jordan just did the most important thing best, and that's win.  And he did it all the time.
I could even see an argument for taking Lebron for a season, but for a series, or even for a game, but don't think it's close.   It's a fun argument to have tho.

Jordan competed in a league totally different than today's league.  He never took a bunch of stiffs to the Finals.  ESPN did a whole show on the radio yesterday about this, they agreed it wasn't close....the other way.  They felt Jordan had way more talent with him every stretch of the way for every title.

Jordan was in this position before, and he could never get by the Celtics or Pistons.  If it's all about winning, well Bill Russell destroys Jordan.

I realize the Chicago homers are going ballistic right now....save it.  Jordan is one of if not the greatest player to play the game.  Hard to compare eras or positions.  Teammates matter.  Lebron is doing something Jordan never did.  Jordan has done things LeBron never did. 

I don't think he has the gas in the tank to pull this off and some of the absolute scrubs will fold, but just getting there this far is a testament to how great the player is.

I have to agree with chico's.  (the agony).  Jordan is one of the greats, if not the greatest.   Certainly in the conversation.   But when he was surrounded by stiffs like this, he couldn't get out of the first round.   (Brad Sellers, anyone?)    To say that if Lebron wins with this cast would be one of the greatest achievements ever does nothing to tear down Jordan.    Jordan's place in the pantheon is secure.  This isn't some zero-sum game  where praising Lebron = diminishing Mike. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 09, 2015, 09:06:10 AM
Jordan competed in a league totally different than today's league.  He never took a bunch of stiffs to the Finals.  ESPN did a whole show on the radio yesterday about this, they agreed it wasn't close....the other way.  They felt Jordan had way more talent with him every stretch of the way for every title.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 09, 2015, 09:06:10 AM
I don't think he has the gas in the tank to pull this off and some of the absolute scrubs will fold, but just getting there this far is a testament to how great the player is.

You openly crow about watching the NBA so I wouldn't expect you to know that its not true.  This isn't the Miami Heat superstar laden team, but the narrative that the Cavs are a bunch of scrubs because Delladova gets substantial minutes now is absolutely laughable.

JR Smith is a moron, but one year removed from being 6th man of the year.  Iman Shumpert is a top tier NBA defender.  Both just toiled away in a worthless Knicks organization that couldn't utilize talent if its life depended on it.

Tristan Thompson averaged a double double the last two years before sitting behind Love.  Less than 3 years removed from being a top 3 pick and on the all-Rookie team.  Mozgov is a more than capable center who has been on bad teams his whole career and has been very good all year.

And he's out the rest of the series, but Kyrie is a superstar and they don't beat the Bulls in that series without him.  

They aren't the Miami Heat or the early 2000s Lakers, but the idea that Lebron has dragged a joke of a team to the Finals is absurd.  Offensively flawed at times, absolutely, but a top 3 defensive unit, especially without Love and even without Kyrie.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 09, 2015, 09:06:10 AM

Jordan was in this position before, and he could never get by the Celtics or Pistons. 

That's not really fair either though to compare the competition in the East the years Jordan wasn't winning to what Lebron just went through. That Pistons team had 3 hall of famers on it.   That late 80's Celtics team had 5.  Would Lebron have carried this team any further than Jordan carried his bums?  Against those Celtics or those Pistons?  Probably not.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 09, 2015, 09:06:10 AM
Jordan competed in a league totally different than today's league.  He never took a bunch of stiffs to the Finals.  ESPN did a whole show on the radio yesterday about this, they agreed it wasn't close....the other way.  They felt Jordan had way more talent with him every stretch of the way for every title.

Jordan was in this position before, and he could never get by the Celtics or Pistons.  If it's all about winning, well Bill Russell destroys Jordan.

I realize the Chicago homers are going ballistic right now....save it.  Jordan is one of if not the greatest player to play the game.  Hard to compare eras or positions.  Teammates matter.  Lebron is doing something Jordan never did.  Jordan has done things LeBron never did. 

I don't think he has the gas in the tank to pull this off and some of the absolute scrubs will fold, but just getting there this far is a testament to how great the player is.

Disagreed.  If we're going to talk about how much better Jordan's teammates were and his inability to get by the Pistons and Celtics before he had great teammates, then we need to talk about how embarrassingly bad the Eastern Conference is that James has gone through the past 5 years.  And especially this year.  They beat the Celtics, Bulls, and Hawks to get to the Finals.  None of those teams is even remotely close to what those Pistons and Celtics teams were that Jordan was losing to.  Not even close.

Quote from: wadesworld on June 09, 2015, 10:59:02 AM
Disagreed.  If we're going to talk about how much better Jordan's teammates were and his inability to get by the Pistons and Celtics before he had great teammates, then we need to talk about how embarrassingly bad the Eastern Conference is that James has gone through the past 5 years.  And especially this year.  They beat the Celtics, Bulls, and Hawks to get to the Finals.  None of those teams is even remotely close to what those Pistons and Celtics teams were that Jordan was losing to.  Not even close.

+1000. Give those Jordan teams a road that includes this year's Celtics, Bulls and Hawks and they breeze to the finals.

As for Golden State, I watched the Bulls beat them on the road in overtime this year (on a night when Rose was 10-30), then saw the Cavs beat them with LeBron going 10-35. I know they're good more often than not but so far in this series they look very beatable.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 09, 2015, 11:15:42 AM

As for Golden State, I watched the Bulls beat them on the road in overtime this year (on a night when Rose was 10-30), then saw the Cavs beat them with LeBron going 10-35. I know they're good more often than not but so far in this series they look very beatable.

Ya. Golden State is a very good team. Their record and analytics tell us that.  However, right now they are the greatest team that has never won anything.  Let's at least slow down on their praise until they actually do win.

Golden State is very good.  If the Cavs beat them it will be beyond impressive.

I'm going with Golden State in 5.

Quote from: JWags85 on June 09, 2015, 10:08:21 AM
You openly crow about watching the NBA so I wouldn't expect you to know that its not true.  This isn't the Miami Heat superstar laden team, but the narrative that the Cavs are a bunch of scrubs because Delladova gets substantial minutes now is absolutely laughable.

JR Smith is a moron, but one year removed from being 6th man of the year.  Iman Shumpert is a top tier NBA defender.  Both just toiled away in a worthless Knicks organization that couldn't utilize talent if its life depended on it.

Tristan Thompson averaged a double double the last two years before sitting behind Love.  Less than 3 years removed from being a top 3 pick and on the all-Rookie team.  Mozgov is a more than capable center who has been on bad teams his whole career and has been very good all year.

And he's out the rest of the series, but Kyrie is a superstar and they don't beat the Bulls in that series without him. 

They aren't the Miami Heat or the early 2000s Lakers, but the idea that Lebron has dragged a joke of a team to the Finals is absurd.  Offensively flawed at times, absolutely, but a top 3 defensive unit, especially without Love and even without Kyrie.

They aren't scrubs you are correct.  But the players on the court now are really nothing more than above average players.  Perhaps an all-star game in their future, but that's about it.

Jordan had Scottie Pippen, one of the all-time greats, as his teammate for all six championships.  He had Kukoc and Rodman for the last three.  All three of those guys were better than anyone the Cavs puts on the floor now.  (Perhaps Thompson could be considered a less flashy version of Rodman.)  And Phil Jackson was a better coach than Blatt.

And believe me, I consider Jordan to be the greatest player of all time.  Even if Lebron goes 50/15/15 for the rest of the series, I will still believe that. 

Game 1 of regular season starting Cavs Lineup

LeBron James
Dion Waiters
Kyrie Irving
Anderson Varejao
Kevin Love


Starting lineup for the NBA Finals game 2 and beyond

LeBron James
Dion Waiters
Kyrie Irving
Anderson Varejao
Kevin Love

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 09, 2015, 12:14:38 PM

They aren't scrubs you are correct.  But the players on the court now are really nothing more than above average players.  Perhaps an all-star game in their future, but that's about it.

Jordan had Scottie Pippen, one of the all-time greats, as his teammate for all six championships.  He had Kukoc and Rodman for the last three.  All three of those guys were better than anyone the Cavs puts on the floor now.  (Perhaps Thompson could be considered a less flashy version of Rodman.)  And Phil Jackson was a better coach than Blatt.

And believe me, I consider Jordan to be the greatest player of all time.  Even if Lebron goes 50/15/15 for the rest of the series, I will still believe that. 

I agree with you.  I think Thompson and Rodman are comparable as they are at different stages of their career, Thompson has finally found his niche while Rodman with the Bulls was on the tail end of a unique and exceptional career.  But you're right.

My whole point is there is a big difference between winning without another superstar or two, and pulling along some rag tag band of misfits.  Thus far he's made it through a weak East, largely assisted by another superstar (Irving).  Now he's playing with a bit more a stacked deck, but its not like its Lebron and the Sixers.  Its Lebron and a few occasional all-stars.  And those players are all VERY good defensively (expect for JR Smith).  Thompson will be an All-Star at some point, and given the lack of good centers, I wouldn't be surprised to see Mozgov if he continues playing on teams that aren't abysmal.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 09, 2015, 01:07:17 PM
Game 1 of regular season starting Cavs Lineup

LeBron James
Dion Waiters
Kyrie Irving
Anderson Varejao
Kevin Love


Starting lineup for the NBA Finals game 2 and beyond

LeBron James
Dion Waiters
Kyrie Irving
Anderson Varejao
Kevin Love

They traded Waiters cause he sucks and without Varejo, Thompson never becomes the force he has become and they don't trade for Mozgov.  Also, not sure your point other than the injuries to Love and Irving that have been discussed ad nauseum.  Varejo was never all that good.  Addition by subtraction.

Quote from: JWags85 on June 09, 2015, 10:08:21 AM
You openly crow about watching the NBA so I wouldn't expect you to know that its not true.  This isn't the Miami Heat superstar laden team, but the narrative that the Cavs are a bunch of scrubs because Delladova gets substantial minutes now is absolutely laughable.

JR Smith is a moron, but one year removed from being 6th man of the year.  Iman Shumpert is a top tier NBA defender.  Both just toiled away in a worthless Knicks organization that couldn't utilize talent if its life depended on it.

Tristan Thompson averaged a double double the last two years before sitting behind Love.  Less than 3 years removed from being a top 3 pick and on the all-Rookie team.  Mozgov is a more than capable center who has been on bad teams his whole career and has been very good all year.

And he's out the rest of the series, but Kyrie is a superstar and they don't beat the Bulls in that series without him.  

They aren't the Miami Heat or the early 2000s Lakers, but the idea that Lebron has dragged a joke of a team to the Finals is absurd.  Offensively flawed at times, absolutely, but a top 3 defensive unit, especially without Love and even without Kyrie.

ESPN Radio did a nice analysis on this yesterday.

They rated the players by using letter grades.

Shumpert, they gave a C.  Smith a B.  Thompson a B-.  Delladova a D.  Miller a C-.  Marion a C.  Perkins a C.  Jones a C.  Mozgov a B. 

Compared to who they are playing with three A's according to ESPN.  It was interesting.   We can debate the level of stiffs and the definition, but this Cavs team only won 50 some games in the horrible East.  Now without their two other A players, the fact they are even in this is saying something.


What I love most about all this, all the haters in this world are suddenly cheering for LeBron.  That's pretty cool.  I've never seen an athlete go through the hatred that guy goes through.  He can't have a bad quarter without the hate while Curry can lay an entire egg for a game and it is "just a bad game".

I don't expect the Cavs to win, but I hope they do.  Mostly for Cleveland and my relatives that live there that have gone through sports hell for 50+ years, but also for James who takes more crap than any athlete ever has.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 09, 2015, 01:14:36 PM
Compared to who they are playing with three A's according to ESPN.  It was interesting.   We can debate the level of stiffs and the definition, but this Cavs team only won 50 some games in the horrible East.  Now without their two other A players, the fact they are even in this is saying something.

What I love most about all this, all the haters in this world are suddenly cheering for LeBron.  That's pretty cool.  I've never seen an athlete go through the hatred that guy goes through.  He can't have a bad quarter without the hate while Curry can lay an entire egg for a game and it is "just a bad game".

I don't expect the Cavs to win, but I hope they do.  Mostly for Cleveland and my relatives that live there that have gone through sports hell for 50+ years, but also for James who takes more crap than any athlete ever has.

They also were a completely new team with a bunch of new high profile pieces learning to play together.  Same thing happened with the early days of the Lebron Heat teams.  And Lebron took off 2 weeks mid season.

As for the rest, I'm not even going to go into it.  Everyone who has crafted a "Lebron the victim" narrative the last week is high.  You can feel for Cleveland fans, but feeling for a man who already has 2 rings and only came home cause he saw a window of opportunity and still makes everything about himself over his team, no matter what his fluffy media manipulation says, give me a break.  I had 3 people tell me after Game 2 that they are rooting for the Cavs after seeing Lebron not get any calls.  Those people aren't worthy of discussing sports with.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 09, 2015, 01:14:36 PM


I don't expect the Cavs to win, but I hope they do.  Mostly for Cleveland and my relatives that live there that have gone through sports hell for 50+ years, but also for James who takes more crap than any athlete ever has.

James takes more crap than any athlete ever has? What are you, nuts? Ever heard of Jackie Robinson?

Quote from: JWags85 on June 09, 2015, 01:22:16 PM
As for the rest, I'm not even going to go into it.  Everyone who has crafted a "Lebron the victim" narrative the last week is high.  You can feel for Cleveland fans, but feeling for a man who already has 2 rings and only came home cause he saw a window of opportunity and still makes everything about himself over his team, no matter what his fluffy media manipulation says, give me a break.  I had 3 people tell me after Game 2 that they are rooting for the Cavs after seeing Lebron not get any calls.  Those people aren't worthy of discussing sports with.

I don't really care why he went back to Cleveland.  He was a free agent and could play wherever he wanted.

But I have no clue what you mean by the bolded.  Does he do this more than other super-star players do...or did?  His game doesn't lead me to believe that when I watch them play.  I don't notice anything off the floor substantially different than other players.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 09, 2015, 01:28:22 PM

I don't really care why he went back to Cleveland.  He was a free agent and could play wherever he wanted.

But I have no clue what you mean by the bolded.  Does he do this more than other super-star players do...or did?  His game doesn't lead me to believe that when I watch them play.  I don't notice anything off the floor substantially different than other players.

I just meant the narrative of wanting to go back home wasn't as altruistic as some people want to believe.  Again, neither here nor there as he was a free agent, but cheapens the whole "I bleed for Cleveland and its people" nonsense.  Same dude who once said "I'm from Akron, We hated Cleveland growing up."

Laying on the floor crying about a foul at the end of Game 3 against Atlanta on a critical play as his teammates scramble to cover for him.  Playing up his injuries the entire playoffs ("I don't even know how I even finished the game" after a simple ankle roll in the Bulls game), including mentioning a wrist injury leading up to the Finals that had never been spoken about.  Taking credit for Kyrie's successes.  His interviews the entire playoffs have been ridiculous.

I'm not saying all superstars don't plead for fouls, enjoy the glory, want credit, but Lebron has taken the need to be liked and praised to a different level.  Kobe and Jordan were competitive psychopaths, they needed success and glory, but didn't give a damn if they were loved.  Lebron is the opposite.  I just think he's an absolute phony.  And thats only significant cause the media wants to portray him as the sincerest individual in the league.

Quote from: JWags85 on June 09, 2015, 01:41:51 PM
Kobe and Jordan were competitive psychopaths, they needed success and glory, but didn't give a damn if they were loved.  Lebron is the opposite.  I just think he's an absolute phony.  And thats only significant cause the media wants to portray him as the sincerest individual in the league.

OK, well I don't disagree with that.  But I enjoy watching competitive psychopaths because they are competitive psychopaths.  How the media portrays them, or how phony they are, is really of no interest to me.  (And Jordan had a pretty well crafted image himself by the way.)

Quote from: JWags85 on June 09, 2015, 01:41:51 PM


I'm not saying all superstars don't plead for fouls, enjoy the glory, want credit, but Lebron has taken the need to be liked and praised to a different level.  Kobe and Jordan were competitive psychopaths, they needed success and glory, but didn't give a damn if they were loved.  Lebron is the opposite.  I just think he's an absolute phony.  And thats only significant cause the media wants to portray him as the sincerest individual in the league.

Lebron is a better human being than MJ or Kobe 8 days a week.

Quote from: brandx on June 09, 2015, 01:54:32 PM
Lebron is a better human being than MJ or Kobe 8 days a week.

I think you should be careful about making statements like that. 

I have made it pretty clear that I can't stand LeBron.  I also will not deny that he is one of the greatest players to ever play the game.  His basketball and athletic abilities are unlike just about anybody ever to walk this earth.  I just personally prefer someone who does not overreact to everything like I believe LeBron does.

LeBron is playing under the weather in the Hawks series.  The buzzer sounds, LeBron takes about 4 steps towards walking off the court, and then he realizes, "Hey, people know I'm not feeling the best, I can really milk this thing."  All of a sudden he's going down on all fours as if he couldn't possibly take another step even if he had to.  It's hard for me to respect that when his teammate breaks his kneecap and tries his best to run back on defense before trying to hide his limp until he is out of site of the fans, at which point you clearly see Irving was much more injured than what he let people see.  If that was LeBron who broke his knee cap is there any doubt he would've remained on the ground until he was carried off the court?  Kyrie is a warrior.  LeBron leans into defenders to get calls.  It's the difference in mentality that I don't like about LeBron.

That and the fact that a family friend is a chef in Cleveland who works in some capacity for the Cavs (not exactly sure where he works, but he serves all of their players) and before he began the job he was given 3 rules that he had to follow or he would be fired immediately:
1) You must not look LeBron James in the eyes.
2) You must not talk to LeBron James unless he talks to you.
3) You must refer to LeBron James as "King James."

And yes, I am 100% dead serious about that.

Quote from: wadesworld on June 09, 2015, 02:11:13 PM
LeBron is playing under the weather in the Hawks series.  The buzzer sounds, LeBron takes about 4 steps towards walking off the court, and then he realizes, "Hey, people know I'm not feeling the best, I can really milk this thing."  All of a sudden he's going down on all fours as if he couldn't possibly take another step even if he had to.  It's hard for me to respect that when his teammate breaks his kneecap and tries his best to run back on defense before trying to hide his limp until he is out of site of the fans, at which point you clearly see Irving was much more injured than what he let people see.  If that was LeBron who broke his knee cap is there any doubt he would've remained on the ground until he was carried off the court?  Kyrie is a warrior.  LeBron leans into defenders to get calls.  It's the difference in mentality that I don't like about LeBron.

Uh...on the bolded part?  Every player does that.  Is that seriously a complaint?

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 09, 2015, 02:43:28 PM

Uh...on the bolded part?  Every player does that.  Is that seriously a complaint?

Not when the defender is so far to the opposite side of the hoop that he not only has to lean but when that doesn't reach he throws his elbow out and then his momentum is going so far off to the opposite direction of the basket that he has to regather himself just to be able to attempt a shot that can go towards the hoop. Guess I should hate he refs for that one.

Quote from: wadesworld on June 09, 2015, 02:47:23 PM
Not when the defender is so far to the opposite side of the hoop that he not only has to lean but when that doesn't reach he throws his elbow out and then his momentum is going so far off to the opposite direction of the basket that he has to regather himself just to be able to attempt a shot that can go towards the hoop. Guess I should hate he refs for that one.

Yes.  Because he is hardly the first, or only, player to do this.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 09, 2015, 03:08:25 PM

Yes.  Because he is hardly the first, or only, player to do this.

Very true.  However, the vast majority of those other players are not 6'9 260 nor predicate their penetration game on putting their head down and bulldozing through smaller players.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 09, 2015, 01:56:18 PM

I think you should be careful about making statements like that. 

You're probably right, Sultan.

But we know about MJ and Kobe. Lebron has been in the league for 12 years and there have been no stories like those about MJ and Kobe.

Quote from: JWags85 on June 09, 2015, 03:11:48 PM
Very true.  However, the vast majority of those other players are not 6'9 260 nor predicate their penetration game on putting their head down and bulldozing through smaller players.

So its his fault that he gets calls from referees in these situations?

Quote from: JWags85 on June 09, 2015, 03:11:48 PM
Very true.  However, the vast majority of those other players are not 6'9 260 nor predicate their penetration game on putting their head down and bulldozing through smaller players.

Every player uses what they can to their advantage. At least all of the great ones. All players initiate contact because they know it will draw fouls.

How is what Lebron does any different that Curry drawing a foul by diving into a defender who is jumping straight up into the air? Or Bird using his elbows to get rebounding position? Or Iverson carrying the ball on his crossover? Or Jordan traveling as he goes to the hoop? Or Wilt overpowering smaller defenders?

It has always been done.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 09, 2015, 01:51:15 PM
(And Jordan had a pretty well crafted image himself by the way.)

I think we've known what an SOB Jordan was for so long, it's easy to forget that we didn't always know.

That said...I still think Jordan is the GOAT.  The fact that I think that Lebron is in the top five is not an insult to Jordan.

Quote from: brandx on June 09, 2015, 03:22:34 PM
Every player uses what they can to their advantage. At least all of the great ones. All players initiate contact because they know it will draw fouls.

How is what Lebron does any different that Curry drawing a foul by diving into a defender who is jumping straight up into the air? Or Bird using his elbows to get rebounding position? Or Iverson carrying the ball on his crossover? Or Jordan traveling as he goes to the hoop? Or Wilt overpowering smaller defenders?

It has always been done.

Because the absurdity of it.  If Wilt overpowered a guy 75% of his size and then flailed when contact was made, it would be similar.  Its not how Lebron initiates contact, its the manner of doing so and his subsequent reactions defy logical physics.  The only person who flops like Lebron is Harden and the size/game differential is substantial.  The absurdity of it is he doesn't have to.  He's that good, that strong, so fast that he can draw those same fouls without the embellishment of an Italian soccer player.

Much like everything aside from stating that he's an otherworldly talent, this will be a contention between Lebron fans and people who think that he's a tremendous player but an annoying, soft, drama queen.

Quote from: JWags85 on June 09, 2015, 01:22:16 PM
They also were a completely new team with a bunch of new high profile pieces learning to play together.  Same thing happened with the early days of the Lebron Heat teams.  And Lebron took off 2 weeks mid season.

As for the rest, I'm not even going to go into it.  Everyone who has crafted a "Lebron the victim" narrative the last week is high.  You can feel for Cleveland fans, but feeling for a man who already has 2 rings and only came home cause he saw a window of opportunity and still makes everything about himself over his team, no matter what his fluffy media manipulation says, give me a break.  I had 3 people tell me after Game 2 that they are rooting for the Cavs after seeing Lebron not get any calls.  Those people aren't worthy of discussing sports with.

The amount of crap that guy got before he won a title was ridiculous.  He has taken more shots than just about any athlete I can ever remember....yes yes "the decision".  Bulls fans and Laker fans are the worst when it comes to him...the absolute worst.  My opinion.    I'd love to hear justification about the other comments in your post...he could have gone anywhere, could have stayed, he didn't.  What I saw in the highlights toward the end of the game, BRUTAL officiating.  That being said, stars get away with a ton of stuff...The Jordan Rules

Quote from: JWags85 on June 09, 2015, 03:31:59 PM
Because the absurdity of it.  If Wilt overpowered a guy 75% of his size and then flailed when contact was made, it would be similar.  Its not how Lebron initiates contact, its the manner of doing so and his subsequent reactions defy logical physics.  The only person who flops like Lebron is Harden and the size/game differential is substantial.  The absurdity of it is he doesn't have to.  He's that good, that strong, so fast that he can draw those same fouls without the embellishment of an Italian soccer player.

Really this is bordering on silly.  Again, blame the refs.

Quote from: JWags85 on June 09, 2015, 03:31:59 PM
Much like everything aside from stating that he's an otherworldly talent, this will be a contention between Lebron fans and people who think that he's a tremendous player but an annoying, soft, drama queen.

He may be annoying.  He may be a drama queen.

He is hardly soft. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 09, 2015, 03:40:43 PM
That being said, stars get away with a ton of stuff...The Jordan Rules

The Jordan Rules were the exact opposite of a star getting away with anything.

Quote from: brandx on June 09, 2015, 03:53:17 PM
The Jordan Rules were the exact opposite of a star getting away with anything.

Seriously Jordan Rules refer to Lambiere and Aguirre and Thomas and whomever else on that team just beat the heck out of Jordan to stop him.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 09, 2015, 03:50:27 PM
Really this is bordering on silly.  Again, blame the refs.

Do you blame the refs when Bo Ryan or Coach K ride and berate them for a game or a season and suddenly spurious calls go their way?  Cause its the same thing with a star player.  Not saying the refs are blameless, but neither is Lebron's incessant outrage that would get 90% of players T'd up.  I blame the NBA and their treatment of him far more than I blame the refs.

And I hated when Wade did it.  I hate when other players do it.  Its just so noticeable with Lebron because of his absolute freak athlete status.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 09, 2015, 03:50:27 PM
He may be annoying.  He may be a drama queen.

He is hardly soft. 

See everything Wade wrote about his behavior with injuries.  Of course he's tough, all professional athletes are.  However, playing up injuries, making ridiculous comments in the media about them, constantly needing to be liked in the media, making a fiasco out of not wearing your headband because you are all about the team, all of that is soft.

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on June 09, 2015, 03:59:50 PM
Seriously Jordan Rules refer to Lambiere and Aguirre and Thomas and whomever else on that team just beat the heck out of Jordan to stop him.

It meant no easy lay ups.   It meant that they doubled Jordan hard as soon as possible and then completely collapsed on him when he drove, meaning he got hit.   Anything to force the ball out of his hands and let anybody on the Bulls beat you.  The Pistons went a legit 8-9 deep with no drop off, had physical position defenders in Laimbeer, Mahorn, and Edwards, agile bigs in Salley and Rodman, and a dynamite on-ball defender in Dumars.   They recognized how good Jordan was and realized the only way to beat the Bulls was to pound on Jordan, limit his damage, and make anybody else make the play.    I loved those teams.

When Jordan had a supporting cast he trusted and they started making plays, the Bulls beat the Pistons.   

Quote from: JWags85 on June 09, 2015, 04:17:34 PM
Do you blame the refs when Bo Ryan or Coach K ride and berate them for a game or a season and suddenly spurious calls go their way?  Cause its the same thing with a star player.  Not saying the refs are blameless, but neither is Lebron's incessant outrage that would get 90% of players T'd up.  I blame the NBA and their treatment of him far more than I blame the refs.

And I hated when Wade did it.  I hate when other players do it.  Its just so noticeable with Lebron because of his absolute freak athlete status.

See everything Wade wrote about his behavior with injuries.  Of course he's tough, all professional athletes are.  However, playing up injuries, making ridiculous comments in the media about them, constantly needing to be liked in the media, making a fiasco out of not wearing your headband because you are all about the team, all of that is soft.

Haha yeah that stuff is hilarious.  You can't wear a headband because it makes you seem not part of the team.  Yeah, really good stuff LeBron.  Just like when he stopped wearing #23 to "honor" Michael Jordan, then had a vote as to what number he should wear and whether he should go back to his powder toss before games.  Here's an idea, make up your own mind instead of trying to win a popularity contest.

Really you two sound like a couple middle school girls with these criticisms.  I get it. He's annoying. Nothing you are saying makes him "soft," unless you are redefining the word.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 09, 2015, 08:01:12 PM
Really you two sound like a couple middle school girls with these criticisms.  I get it. He's annoying. Nothing you are saying makes him "soft," unless you are redefining the word.

And we get it. You don't have a problem with these things. Haha

Never said he was soft. He certainly is a sellout though.

Quote from: tower912 on June 09, 2015, 05:03:24 PM
It meant no easy lay ups.   It meant that they doubled Jordan hard as soon as possible and then completely collapsed on him when he drove, meaning he got hit.   Anything to force the ball out of his hands and let anybody on the Bulls beat you.  The Pistons went a legit 8-9 deep with no drop off, had physical position defenders in Laimbeer, Mahorn, and Edwards, agile bigs in Salley and Rodman, and a dynamite on-ball defender in Dumars.   They recognized how good Jordan was and realized the only way to beat the Bulls was to pound on Jordan, limit his damage, and make anybody else make the play.    I loved those teams.

When Jordan had a supporting cast he trusted and they started making plays, the Bulls beat the Pistons.   

Any different from Lebron on the Cavs 1st time being beat by the Celtics or whomever, then winning when he got Wade and Bosh?

Quote from: wadesworld on June 09, 2015, 08:05:26 PM
And we get it. You don't have a problem with these things. Haha

Never said he was soft. He certainly is a sellout though.

A sell out?  No idea what that means in this context...

I think this kind of stuff is what chicos is talking about.

As I'm watching tonight, I have a question...

If Lebron taking this Cavs team (who everyone is saying is terrible) to the finals and possibly winning it... Does the same apply for Curry leading the Warriors? Has his supporting cast really demonstrated much?

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 09, 2015, 09:39:56 PM
A sell out?  No idea what that means in this context...

I think this kind of stuff is what chicos is talking about.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bHSLw8DLm20

Any other professional athlete who signs as a free agent has an ESPN Bottom Line ticker to announce it. LeBron? He has an hour long feature without having discussed it with his current team. "Gimme those eyes and ears people! The suspense!"

How about "not 4, not 5, not 6!" Well, nope, he was right. Wade and Bosh got old before that could happen, so it was time to find some young talent to jo...err, I mean, it was time to come home and try to win a title for my city! The city I've openly admitted to growing up hating **cough**

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11755763/lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers-let-fans-decide-bring-pregame-chalk-toss-back

Hey fans, give me your eyes and ears, I want you to decide my pregame ritual! Has anybody ever done something like this? Not that I can think of.

http://mweb.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25174032/heres-why-lebron-james-got-rid-of-the-headband-this-season

He wants to "look like his teammates." Outstanding. He's all in for his team now boys! Let's all get matching shoes and socks too!

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4650907

What number is LeBron wearing again? Oh yeah, he had a fan vote to decide. Haha. LeBron just knew it was a way to get more eyes on him. "What an awesome guy and an awesome idea! LeBron you're the best!" Couple years later and LeBron is wearing the number he asked everyone to give up "out of respect to MJ." Sellout.

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2134184-lebron-james-asks-fans-on-instagram-what-no-he-should-wear-with-cavaliers

You just said you got it. Yet you keep trying to convince people otherwise. Which is it? Do you get it or do you want to continue to try to debate it? It's an opinion. Neither is right. It's a matter of preference. I don't like the guy and I don't like that he sells himself out. Your "no idea what that means?" And "is that a thing?" isn't changing that. You don't have a problem with him. Cool. That's great.

Go Warriors.

Quote from: wadesworld on June 09, 2015, 10:13:04 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bHSLw8DLm20

Any other professional athlete who signs as a free agent has an ESPN Bottom Line ticker to announce it. LeBron? He has an hour long feature without having discussed it with his current team. "Gimme those eyes and ears people! The suspense!"

How about "not 4, not 5, not 6!" Well, nope, he was right. Wade and Bosh got old before that could happen, so it was time to find some young talent to jo...err, I mean, it was time to come home and try to win a title for my city! The city I've openly admitted to growing up hating **cough**

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11755763/lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers-let-fans-decide-bring-pregame-chalk-toss-back

Hey fans, give me your eyes and ears, I want you to decide my pregame ritual! Has anybody ever done something like this? Not that I can think of.

http://mweb.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25174032/heres-why-lebron-james-got-rid-of-the-headband-this-season

He wants to "look like his teammates." Outstanding. He's all in for his team now boys! Let's all get matching shoes and socks too!

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4650907

What number is LeBron wearing again? Oh yeah, he had a fan vote to decide. Haha. LeBron just knew it was a way to get more eyes on him. "What an awesome guy and an awesome idea! LeBron you're the best!" Couple years later and LeBron is wearing the number he asked everyone to give up "out of respect to MJ." Sellout.

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2134184-lebron-james-asks-fans-on-instagram-what-no-he-should-wear-with-cavaliers

You just said you got it. Yet you keep trying to convince people otherwise. Which is it? Do you get it or do you want to continue to try to debate it? It's an opinion. Neither is right. It's a matter of preference. I don't like the guy and I don't like that he sells himself out. Your "no idea what that means?" And "is that a thing?" isn't changing that. You don't have a problem with him. Cool. That's great.

Go Warriors.

But what has he done to you to deserve such intense hatred?

Quote from: brandx on June 09, 2015, 11:04:29 PM
But what has he done to you to deserve such intense hatred?

Don't think I'd say I intently hate anyone. Pretty simply I just don't like him. There are hundreds of athletes that are far more likeable to me.

Quote from: jesmu84 on June 09, 2015, 09:40:56 PM
As I'm watching tonight, I have a question...

If Lebron taking this Cavs team (who everyone is saying is terrible) to the finals and possibly winning it... Does the same apply for Curry leading the Warriors? Has his supporting cast really demonstrated much?

His supporting cast is still capable of much better than the Cavs cast is.  Curry needs to get them going, James is willing his guys.

Actually caught the last quarter tonight.  This superior NBA refereeing has been AWOL as far as I can tell. 

One thing nobody mentioned when talking about that horrible missed foul call in Game 2 ... LeBron and the Cavs won, anyway.

Great players usually find a way.

The Cavs almost choked away Game 3. Almost. The greatest player in the world found a way to win.

But yes, "The Decision" was stupid 5 years. So that means what about LeBron today?

Quote from: MU82 on June 09, 2015, 11:34:33 PM
One thing nobody mentioned when talking about that horrible missed foul call in Game 2 ... LeBron and the Cavs won, anyway.

Great players usually find a way.

The Cavs almost choked away Game 3. Almost. The greatest player in the world found a way to win.

But yes, "The Decision" was stupid 5 years. So that means what about LeBron today?

They are running on fumes, that's what it looked like to me.  Going to be tough for them to do this, but he's earning a ton of respect from many a hater.

Not sure why people continue to try to change someone's opinion. Never said anything about him being a bad basketball player. I was raised to treat everyone with respect and as an equal. Some people weren't. LeBron clearly was not. Which is fine. I'm not one to judge. Not my job. But whether it's my CFO or a homeless guy on the street I try my hardest to treat either and everyone in between with respect and to not act above or below either. Sometimes I fail at it, but I certainly don't demand people call me "King," don't allow people to look me in the eye, and don't allow people to talk to me unless I talk to them. This is not 5 years ago. This is today. No fumes necessary. Some people don't see the problem with that. Cool. You're not going to change my opinion that he's a complete douche though. And some people can look beyond the personality and only care about the on court results. Great. Good for you. I can to an extent too. But it's much easier to cheer for a humble, respectful person for me. Just one man's preference. Glad there are differences in opinion out there.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 09, 2015, 11:09:16 PM
His supporting cast is still capable of much better than the Cavs cast is.  Curry needs to get them going, James is willing his guys.

Actually caught the last quarter tonight.  This superior NBA refereeing has been AWOL as far as I can tell. 

How are you defining capable? Career stats? Accolades/awards?

Quote from: jesmu84 on June 10, 2015, 07:13:24 AM
How are you defining capable? Career stats? Accolades/awards?

What they have done consistently over a long period of time this year against top level competition.  The west has been regarded as the better conference by a long shot and they have performed at a high level all season long.

Quote from: wadesworld on June 10, 2015, 06:17:14 AM
Not sure why people continue to try to change someone's opinion. Never said anything about him being a bad basketball player. I was raised to treat everyone with respect and as an equal. Some people weren't. LeBron clearly was not. Which is fine. I'm not one to judge. Not my job. But whether it's my CFO or a homeless guy on the street I try my hardest to treat either and everyone in between with respect and to not act above or below either. Sometimes I fail at it, but I certainly don't demand people call me "King," don't allow people to look me in the eye, and don't allow people to talk to me unless I talk to them. This is not 5 years ago. This is today. No fumes necessary. Some people don't see the problem with that. Cool. You're not going to change my opinion that he's a complete douche though. And some people can look beyond the personality and only care about the on court results. Great. Good for you. I can to an extent too. But it's much easier to cheer for a humble, respectful person for me. Just one man's preference. Glad there are differences in opinion out there.

Always the classiest of moves, to knock someone's upbringing, but hey you ain't judging them right?   Wades and JWags you just all seem to have an endless supply of SIZZLING HOT TAKES!  HEADBANDS, INSTAGRAM, SNEAKERS, JERSEY NUMBERS...SO SO HOT! WHAT ABOUT LEBRON'S GOING TO HIS KID'S BASKETBALL GAME!  HIS SAMSUNG COMMERCIALS!  DOES HE REALLY DRIVE A KIA?

As for whole MJ piece, can you fathom if James "quit" basketball after this season, forced himself onto a AA minor baseball team, made a mockery of those around him, came back to basketball, play more, quit again, come back with another team...the internet would literally explode.

Go Cleveland, if anything to shut you guys up.

Quote from: wadesworld on June 09, 2015, 10:13:04 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bHSLw8DLm20

Any other professional athlete who signs as a free agent has an ESPN Bottom Line ticker to announce it. LeBron? He has an hour long feature without having discussed it with his current team. "Gimme those eyes and ears people! The suspense!"

How about "not 4, not 5, not 6!" Well, nope, he was right. Wade and Bosh got old before that could happen, so it was time to find some young talent to jo...err, I mean, it was time to come home and try to win a title for my city! The city I've openly admitted to growing up hating **cough**

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11755763/lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers-let-fans-decide-bring-pregame-chalk-toss-back

Hey fans, give me your eyes and ears, I want you to decide my pregame ritual! Has anybody ever done something like this? Not that I can think of.

http://mweb.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25174032/heres-why-lebron-james-got-rid-of-the-headband-this-season

He wants to "look like his teammates." Outstanding. He's all in for his team now boys! Let's all get matching shoes and socks too!

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4650907

What number is LeBron wearing again? Oh yeah, he had a fan vote to decide. Haha. LeBron just knew it was a way to get more eyes on him. "What an awesome guy and an awesome idea! LeBron you're the best!" Couple years later and LeBron is wearing the number he asked everyone to give up "out of respect to MJ." Sellout.

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2134184-lebron-james-asks-fans-on-instagram-what-no-he-should-wear-with-cavaliers

Yes.  He has made mistakes, apologized for some, and is annoying.  How does that make him a "sell-out?"

Quote from: wadesworld on June 09, 2015, 10:13:04 PM
You just said you got it. Yet you keep trying to convince people otherwise. Which is it? Do you get it or do you want to continue to try to debate it? It's an opinion. Neither is right. It's a matter of preference. I don't like the guy and I don't like that he sells himself out. Your "no idea what that means?" And "is that a thing?" isn't changing that. You don't have a problem with him. Cool. That's great.

It's a message board.  I can respond if I want.  And if people are going to use adjectives to describe him like "soft" or a "sell-out," I am going to ask on which they base their opinion.

Quote from: reinko on June 10, 2015, 07:34:54 AM
Always the classiest of moves, to knock someone's upbringing, but hey you ain't judging them right?   Wades and JWags you just all seem to have an endless supply of SIZZLING HOT TAKES!  HEADBANDS, INSTAGRAM, SNEAKERS, JERSEY NUMBERS...SO SO HOT! WHAT ABOUT LEBRON'S GOING TO HIS KID'S BASKETBALL GAME!  HIS SAMSUNG COMMERCIALS!  DOES HE REALLY DRIVE A KIA?

As for whole MJ piece, can you fathom if James "quit" basketball after this season, forced himself onto a AA minor baseball team, made a mockery of those around him, came back to basketball, play more, quit again, come back with another team...the internet would literally explode.

Go Cleveland, if anything to shut you guys up.

;D

Not sure where you get this idea of "knocking someone's upbringing."  I was raised differently than him.  In fact, I specifically said it's not a bad thing.  It's different than how I was raised.  But hey, keep reaching.

Here's an idea, don't like reading it then...don't read it!  Imagine that.  Better yet, hit the ignore button!  Doesn't take a Cavs win to "shut you guys up."  A simple click of a button.  Or ignoring a topic that you know what it's going to look like and you know is going to get you worked up on your Wednesday morning.

And to be quite honest, a Cavs title won't do anything to change my mind or "shut me up."  LeBron could average 80, 50, 30, 15 steals, and 10 blocks for the next 20 years and win 20 straight titles and I would never root for him a day in my life.  Has nothing to do with what's going on on the court.  Don't know how you can possibly confuse that, but okay.

Thanks for contributing.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 10, 2015, 07:49:12 AM

Yes.  He has made mistakes, apologized for some, and is annoying.  How does that make him a "sell-out?"


It's a message board.  I can respond if I want.  And if people are going to use adjectives to describe him like "soft" or a "sell-out," I am going to ask on which they base their opinion.

Right, so you don't get it then, if you have to ask more questions.  I guess asking all players in basketball to stop wearing number 23 out of respect for MJ and then wearing 23 himself isn't selling out.  What do I know?

Quote from: reinko on June 10, 2015, 07:34:54 AM
Always the classiest of moves, to knock someone's upbringing, but hey you ain't judging them right?   Wades and JWags you just all seem to have an endless supply of SIZZLING HOT TAKES!  HEADBANDS, INSTAGRAM, SNEAKERS, JERSEY NUMBERS...SO SO HOT! WHAT ABOUT LEBRON'S GOING TO HIS KID'S BASKETBALL GAME!  HIS SAMSUNG COMMERCIALS!  DOES HE REALLY DRIVE A KIA?

As for whole MJ piece, can you fathom if James "quit" basketball after this season, forced himself onto a AA minor baseball team, made a mockery of those around him, came back to basketball, play more, quit again, come back with another team...the internet would literally explode.

Go Cleveland, if anything to shut you guys up.

Yeah this is what I don't get.  What Lebron does is a more intense version of what stars have done for years.  Even though I don't like the Lebron / Jordan comparisons, Jordan was hardly humble.  He banged on refs all the time.  A complete different personality when doing commercials and in the locker room.  Hardly well liked within the Bulls organization as a person.

Maybe with the passage of time people have forgotten this, or maybe they simply aren't old enough to remember.

Quote from: wadesworld on June 10, 2015, 07:50:33 AM
Right, so you don't get it then, if you have to ask more questions.  I guess asking all players in basketball to stop wearing number 23 out of respect for MJ and then wearing 23 himself isn't selling out.  What do I know?

OK, I guess.  Maybe I just don't pay attention to this stuff so it doesn't really bother me. 

I root against Lebron.   He is annoying.  The Decision annoyed me.  I know it was a long time ago.  I know he's not some kind of criminal, and I don't wish bad upon him as a person, but I like to root against him.  
Why do people get so mad when others root against him?  When there's no Lebron I'll root against somebody else.  It makes the games fun to watch.  Seems pretty normal.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 10, 2015, 08:01:38 AM

Yeah this is what I don't get.  What Lebron does is a more intense version of what stars have done for years.  Even though I don't like the Lebron / Jordan comparisons, Jordan was hardly humble.  He banged on refs all the time.  A complete different personality when doing commercials and in the locker room.  Hardly well liked within the Bulls organization as a person.

Maybe with the passage of time people have forgotten this, or maybe they simply aren't old enough to remember.

No doubt.  I never liked Jordan either, but I was also pretty young when he was in his prime, so I didn't really know anything other than him dominating the Bucks on the court.  And I don't really think you can compare LeBron and MJ either.  LeBron plays more like Magic, Kobe plays more like MJ.  I was too young to really know how good MJ really was and don't remember how dominant (or not dominant) MJ was.  I'm not sure I remember ever seeing Magic play.  So I can't really compare the players on the court.  I just know I don't like MJ, Kobe, or LeBron, but I do like Magic, but that is just all based on his reputation because, again, I wasn't really old enough to form my own opinion on him when he was playing.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 10, 2015, 08:03:26 AM

OK, I guess.  Maybe I just don't pay attention to this stuff so it doesn't really bother me. 

Fair enough.  I'm not a fan of it.

Quote from: RushmoreAcademy on June 10, 2015, 08:07:06 AM
I root against Lebron.   He is annoying.  The Decision annoyed me.  I know it was a long time ago.  I know he's not some kind of criminal, and I don't wish bad upon him as a person, but I like to root against him.   
Why do people get so mad when others root against him?  When there's no Lebron I'll root against somebody else.  It makes the games fun to watch.  Seems pretty normal.

Bingo.  Nailed it.

Quote from: RushmoreAcademy on June 10, 2015, 08:07:06 AM
I root against Lebron.   He is annoying.  The Decision annoyed me.  I know it was a long time ago.  I know he's not some kind of criminal, and I don't wish bad upon him as a person, but I like to root against him.  
Why do people get so mad when others root against him?  When there's no Lebron I'll root against somebody else.  It makes the games fun to watch.  Seems pretty normal.

I am not mad.  And I get that people root against him and that's fine.  I can understand why people find him annoying.

But when I see criticisms like "he leans into defenders to get calls," it starts bordering on silly.  Every player now, and since I have been watching NBA basketball, has done this.  And he is hardly perfection on the court.  He isn't the best shooter.  And oftentimes when he has the ball in his hands, the offense stagnates.  

Quote from: wadesworld on June 10, 2015, 08:19:07 AM
No doubt.  I never liked Jordan either, but I was also pretty young when he was in his prime, so I didn't really know anything other than him dominating the Bucks on the court.  And I don't really think you can compare LeBron and MJ either.  LeBron plays more like Magic, Kobe plays more like MJ.  I was too young to really know how good MJ really was and don't remember how dominant (or not dominant) MJ was.  I'm not sure I remember ever seeing Magic play.  So I can't really compare the players on the court.  I just know I don't like MJ, Kobe, or LeBron, but I do like Magic, but that is just all based on his reputation because, again, I wasn't really old enough to form my own opinion on him when he was playing.

Well that is why I don't like the Jordan comparisons for on the court play and was limiting it to the off the court stuff.

You know who likes LeBron?  ABC

Ratings are great.  As this thread very capably illustrates, LeBron engenders strong feelings on both sides.  That is great for ratings.  I think that the network loves to show how great he is on the floor (and he has been great), but also offer glimpses of the "drama queen" side of LeBron (such as holding the "exhausted pose" as time expired last night).  A little something for both the lovers and the haters.

I definitely lean toward the "lovers" side of things.  But I've lived in Cleveland for the last 24 years, so that probably has something to do with it.  And I really don't hold "The Decision" against him too much.  Yes, that was a terrible PR misstep, but I am convinced he was sold on that idea by ESPN and his handlers and bought in because of the charity angle.  I think he had absolutely no idea how badly that would be received.  Granted, any rational (i.e., non- egotistical douchebag) would have seen that coming, but I think he was genuinely shocked.  Frankly, I believe that is one of the reasons he's always seeks public approval before doing things -- he realizes that he misjudged badly with "The Decision" and he doesn't want to repeat that.  He's the greatest basketball player alive, but he's still insecure and needs to be loved.

Quote from: wadesworld on June 10, 2015, 06:17:14 AM
I was raised to treat everyone with respect and as an equal. Some people weren't. LeBron clearly was not. Which is fine. I'm not one to judge.

How the F do you know how LeBron was raised? And how the F do you make a statement like that and then claim you aren't "one to judge"?

And how the F do you later say were not "knocking someone's upbringing"?

"I was raised to treat everyone with respect and as an equal. Some people weren't. LeBron clearly was not." 

You said it. I didn't. Sultan didn't. You did. Don't try to spin it as somebody is putting words in your mouth.

I don't give a rat's rump if you root against LeBron or if others do, too. As many have said, rooting for and against people is the essence of fan-dom.

What bugs some of us is when one judges a person's heart or a person's upbringing without having a freakin' clue.

Quote from: RushmoreAcademy on June 10, 2015, 08:07:06 AM
I root against Lebron.   He is annoying.  The Decision annoyed me.  I know it was a long time ago.  I know he's not some kind of criminal, and I don't wish bad upon him as a person, but I like to root against him.  
Why do people get so mad when others root against him?  When there's no Lebron I'll root against somebody else.  It makes the games fun to watch.  Seems pretty normal.

.

Question, if he played for your team ( Bulls?) do you feel same way?

Quote from: MU82 on June 10, 2015, 08:43:30 AM
How the F do you know how LeBron was raised? And how the F do you make a statement like that and then claim you aren't "one to judge"?

And how the F do you later say were not "knocking someone's upbringing"?

"I was raised to treat everyone with respect and as an equal. Some people weren't. LeBron clearly was not."  

You said it. I didn't. Sultan didn't. You did. Don't try to spin it as somebody is putting words in your mouth.

I don't give a rat's rump if you root against LeBron or if others do, too. As many have said, rooting for and against people is the essence of fan-dom.

What bugs some of us is when one judges a person's heart or a person's upbringing without having a freakin' clue.

Yeah I said it.  How do I know how he was raised?  Well, okay, my fault.  Maybe he was raised as a perfect humble person and when he got to the NBA he learned how to have people fired for not referring to him as "King" or for looking him in the eyes or for speaking to him before he speaks to them.  The Hummer he was driving around in high school was probably something he bought with the $0.00 salary he was making too.  Had nothing to do with those who were raising him.

You conveniently left off the very next sentence.  "Which is fine."  Talk about spinning.  Yes, I said those things that you bolded and italicized.  I followed it with what I bolded and italicized.  Looks like you and reinko are the ones who are judging that this would make him a bad person.  Me?  I think he was raised differently than I was.  Like I said, it's fine.  Just different.  Apparently you look at it and think it's bad.  I think it's different.  That's all I said, so it looks like you're the one spinning it by conveniently leaving out the very next sentence.  I prefer someone who treats everyone with the same respect and as if all humans are equal to them, regardless of fame or income.  Just a preference.  Doesn't make me right, just gives me a preference.  Is that clear enough?  Or should I not have a preference.  Just be indifferent?  Don't have a preference between Pope Francis and an ISIS member who beheads innocent people?  Got it.  Noted.

And I do have a freaking clue.  I personally know somebody who cooks LeBron's food multiple times a week, and who straight up was given 3 simple rules for his job (I have said this twice already in this thread, so maybe a third time will be the charm):

1) You must refer to LeBron as "King James."
2) You must not look LeBron in the eyes.
3) You must not talk to LeBron unless he talks to you.

Those were the 3 rules given to him when he got his job, and he serves every player on the Cavs team.  He wasn't told he'd be fired if he cooks something and it gives Mike Miller food poisoning.  He was told he would be fired for not referring to LeBron James as "King James."  When someone requires you to never look him in the eye, that is not treating people as your equal.  If you think that me coming to the conclusion that LeBron doesn't treat others as an equal based on that is me judging LeBron then sure, I'm judging him.  Absolutely I am.  But it's a fact that he doesn't allow the people who cook him food to look him in the eye or talk to him unless he talks to them first, and he requires them to refer to him as "King James."  Which, again, some people find to be fine and be able to look past.  Me?  I prefer stars who don't act like they're better than others.  I also know that it's a fact that the ball boys for the Bucks used to be able to take pictures with opposing players when they came to the BC.  I personally coached one of the ball boys for the Bucks who got pictures with Kevin Love, Dwyane Wade, Anthony Davis, etc.  Who caused the policy to change?  LeBron James.  The ball boys can no longer take pictures with any opposing players before or after games because LeBron didn't like being asked for a picture.  AD, Wade, Love, etc. never had a problem with it.  LeBron is too good for it.  Me judging?  Heck yeah!

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 10, 2015, 09:12:33 AM
.

Question, if he played for your team ( Bulls?) do you feel same way?

This question isn't meant for me but during the summer of 2010 when the Bulls had room for 2 max contracts I wanted Wade and Bosh.  As a Bulls fan I would have had a really hard time rooting for Lebron if he had become a Bull, and my dislike of him has continued to grow since. 

Quote from: wadesworld on June 10, 2015, 09:12:53 AM
You conveniently left off the very next sentence.  "Which is fine."  Talk about spinning.  Yes, I said those things that you bolded and italicized.  I followed it with what I bolded and italicized.  Looks like you and reinko are the ones who are judging that this would make him a bad person.  Me?  I think he was raised differently than I was.  Like I said, it's fine.  Just different.  Apparently you look at it and think it's bad.  I think it's different.  That's all I said, so it looks like you're the one spinning it by conveniently leaving out the very next sentence.  I prefer someone who treats everyone with the same respect and as if all humans are equal to them, regardless of fame or income.  Just a preference.  Doesn't make me right, just gives me a preference.  Is that clear enough?  Or should I not have a preference.  Just be indifferent?  Don't have a preference between Pope Francis and an ISIS member who beheads innocent people?  Got it.  Noted.

Wow.  You kind of suck at analogies. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 09, 2015, 11:41:20 PM
They are running on fumes, that's what it looked like to me.  Going to be tough for them to do this, but he's earning a ton of respect from many a hater.

Have you taken a poll on all of the "haters"?  I loathe Lebron but I've always respected him as a talent and basketball player.  The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.  I don't think what has happened this postseason has made people who can't stand him feel any differently.  

For a guy of his talent, he constantly whines, flops, bitches, cries.  He is immensely unlikable and I can still think he is the best player in the league right now.  

Also, anyone who thinks he came back to Cleveland to "come home" and not because he felt it was the best opportunity for him to keep winning. It gave him the opportunity to create the narrative of unselfishness and him coming home.  If there was a better opportunity on another team he wouldn't be back in Cleveland right now.  

I am biased but he is not in the conversation with Jordan.  Another poster commented on this but the teams James had to go through in the East over the past 5 years are nothing compared to the teams that Jordan and the Bulls had to go through to make the finals.  The same holds true for the teams the Bulls beat in the finals to win those 6 titles.  

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 10, 2015, 09:26:57 AM

Wow.  You kind of suck at analogies. 

Wow is right.  I said I prefer one type of person.  Simple as that.  Some people prefer another type of person.  No problem.  I just prefer it one way.

Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 10, 2015, 09:32:21 AM
Have you taken a poll on all of the "haters"?  I loathe Lebron but I've always respected him as a talent and basketball player.  The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.  I don't think what has happened this postseason has made people who can't stand him feel any differently.  

For a guy of his talent, he constantly whines, flops, bitches, cries.  He is immensely unlikable and I can still think he is the best player in the league right now.  

Also, anyone who thinks he came back to Cleveland to "come home" and not because he felt it was the best opportunity for him to keep winning. It gave him the opportunity to create the narrative of unselfishness and him coming home.  If there was a better opportunity on another team he wouldn't be back in Cleveland right now.  

I am biased but he is not in the conversation with Jordan.  Another poster commented on this but the teams James had to go through in the East over the past 5 years are nothing compared to the teams that Jordan and the Bulls had to go through to make the finals.  The same holds true for the teams the Bulls beat in the finals to win those 6 titles.  

First 2 paragraphs nailed it.

Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 10, 2015, 09:32:21 AM
I am biased but he is not in the conversation with Jordan.  Another poster commented on this but the teams James had to go through in the East over the past 5 years are nothing compared to the teams that Jordan and the Bulls had to go through to make the finals.  The same holds true for the teams the Bulls beat in the finals to win those 6 titles.  

I think the 2013 Spurs team was better than any team that Jordan faced.

1991 Lakers upset the Blazers, had an older Magic, but no one else very special. Worst team he faced.

1992 Blazers were good.  Roughly akin to the 2012 Thunder or the 2011 Mavs.

1993 Suns were the best of the first three, but not substantially better than the Blazers from the year before.  This was probably the worst year in the west, with the Blazers fading and the Sonics and Rockets just starting to get it going.  The Knicks team he faced in the semis was better than anyone in the West.

1996 Sonics were good.  Hard to judge cause that Bulls team was fantastic.  Best team I have ever seen in the NBA.

1997 & 98 Jazz were the best teams that Jordan had to face in the Finals.  I don't think they were as good as the 13 or 14 Spurs teams.  

Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 10, 2015, 09:24:09 AM
This question isn't meant for me but during the summer of 2010 when the Bulls had room for 2 max contracts I wanted Wade and Bosh.  As a Bulls fan I would have had a really hard time rooting for Lebron if he had become a Bull, and my dislike of him has continued to grow since. 

Exactly.  People say it all the time.  I wasn't pulling for Lebron to come to Chicago at all.  If he did, great as he's a fantastic basketball player.  But I wouldn't have gotten a jersey or t-shirt.  Or posted endless vines or memes of him.  Its a far greater version of Soriano on the Cubs.  Couldn't stand him but was happy when performed well and helped get Ws.

Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 10, 2015, 09:32:21 AM
For a guy of his talent, he constantly whines, flops, bitches, cries.  He is immensely unlikable and I can still think he is the best player in the league right now.  

Also, anyone who thinks he came back to Cleveland to "come home" and not because he felt it was the best opportunity for him to keep winning. It gave him the opportunity to create the narrative of unselfishness and him coming home.  If there was a better opportunity on another team he wouldn't be back in Cleveland right now.  

Yep.

And Sultan, you keep banging on it.  When I call him "soft", I think you are assuming I mean shying away from contact, not physical, etc...  Thats not what I mean.  As I said before, I'm referring to his constant unsolicited injury updates and embellishments, his media maneuverings to make sure everyone loves him, all the silly nonsense he does other than be Lebron Destroyer of the Basketball World, which he has the talent and natural size to do.  Maybe thats just the "millennial" definition that us young folks use.

As with everything in this conversation, YMMV

I understand the Lebron hate.  I felt that way about Jordan.   I feel that way about Tiger.   Despite always rooting against them, I acknowledge their greatness.    I've never had that kind of hate for Lebron, but I understand it.   And I am guessing when his career is done, most will acknowledge that he was pretty good, even though they never liked him. 

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 10, 2015, 09:44:59 AM

I think the 2013 Spurs team was better than any team that Jordan faced.

1991 Lakers upset the Blazers, had an older Magic, but no one else very special. Worst team he faced.

1992 Blazers were good.  Roughly akin to the 2012 Thunder or the 2011 Mavs.

1993 Suns were the best of the first three, but not substantially better than the Blazers from the year before.  This was probably the worst year in the west, with the Blazers fading and the Sonics and Rockets just starting to get it going.  The Knicks team he faced in the semis was better than anyone in the West.

1996 Sonics were good.  Hard to judge cause that Bulls team was fantastic.  Best team I have ever seen in the NBA.

1997 & 98 Jazz were the best teams that Jordan had to face in the Finals.  I don't think they were as good as the 13 or 14 Spurs teams.  

I think he was referring to the conference opponents.

Quote from: jesmu84 on June 10, 2015, 11:24:19 AM
I think he was referring to the conference opponents.

Vander said:

"I am biased but he is not in the conversation with Jordan.  Another poster commented on this but the teams James had to go through in the East over the past 5 years are nothing compared to the teams that Jordan and the Bulls had to go through to make the finals.  The same holds true for the teams the Bulls beat in the finals to win those 6 titles."

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 10, 2015, 09:12:33 AM
.

Question, if he played for your team ( Bulls?) do you feel same way?

Of course not.  That also is part of sports.  I couldn't stand Noah before the Bulls drafted him.   It's pretty clear that's how most feel too because people were burning Lebron's jersey in Cleveland just a few years ago.   Would we all defend Bo Ryan more if he was our coach?  Probably so.
The exceptions are with guys who just do bad things, such as if the Bears would have kept Ray McDonald, I wouldn't be able to root for him.  But if guys aren't criminals and are just regular old jerks, then sure, I'll root for my jerks and against the other jerks.
I don't support any claims that Lebron is a dirty player or complains more than your average guy, because everybody does the same things.
I do think I'd feel the same whether I was a Bulls fan or a Jazz fan. I never blamed Lebron for costing the Bulls anything, as there was always plenty of blame to go around on the team itself.
I basically just prefer to see him lose than to win.  He's also always playing for championships so I just get a lot more of a chance to do that. If Dwight Howard (bad example?) or somebody who seems to draw dislike was playing for more championships, I'd maybe be doing the same thing.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 10, 2015, 11:34:30 AM

Vander said:

"I am biased but he is not in the conversation with Jordan.  Another poster commented on this but the teams James had to go through in the East over the past 5 years are nothing compared to the teams that Jordan and the Bulls had to go through to make the finals.  The same holds true for the teams the Bulls beat in the finals to win those 6 titles."

I did include both.  I feel more strongly about the comparison of the Eastern Conference quality versus the quality of teams each have played in the finals.  The Spurs of 2013 and 2014 were pretty damned good so I think there's an equally valid argument to be made on both sides. 

However, some of those Piston, Knicks and Pacers teams the Bulls had to go through in the 90s are head and shoulders better than the teams the Heat and the Cavs have had to go through.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 10, 2015, 07:33:23 AM
What they have done consistently over a long period of time this year against top level competition.  The west has been regarded as the better conference by a long shot and they have performed at a high level all season long.

Why are you only using this year as a measure of a player's ability?

Quote from: RushmoreAcademy on June 10, 2015, 11:54:30 AM

Of course not.  That also is part of sports.  I couldn't stand Noah before the Bulls drafted him.   It's pretty clear that's how most feel too because people were burning Lebron's jersey in Cleveland just a few years ago.   Would we all defend Bo Ryan more if he was our coach?  Probably so.
The exceptions are with guys who just do bad things, such as if the Bears would have kept Ray McDonald, I wouldn't be able to root for him.  But if guys aren't criminals and are just regular old jerks, then sure, I'll root for my jerks and against the other jerks.
I don't support any claims that Lebron is a dirty player or complains more than your average guy, because everybody does the same things.
I do think I'd feel the same whether I was a Bulls fan or a Jazz fan. I never blamed Lebron for costing the Bulls anything, as there was always plenty of blame to go around on the team itself.
I basically just prefer to see him lose than to win.  He's also always playing for championships so I just get a lot more of a chance to do that. If Dwight Howard (bad example?) or somebody who seems to draw dislike was playing for more championships, I'd maybe be doing the same thing.

I think this sums up the feelings of most sports fans.

Quote from: jesmu84 on June 10, 2015, 06:04:00 PM
Why are you only using this year as a measure of a player's ability?

I figure the most recent sample size likely indicates the closest proximity of their current ability.  Not perfect, but that approach seems sound.  I'm open to different time periods.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 10, 2015, 09:31:01 PM
I figure the most recent sample size likely indicates the closest proximity of their current ability.  Not perfect, but that approach seems sound.  I'm open to different time periods.

Fair enough.

I had to laugh last night when I overheard two of my daughters (14 and 12) discussing LeBron.  My 12-year old was singing his praises, and my 14-year old acknowledged that he is good, but said she didn't like him because he's too "full of himself."  Kinda like, "MUScoop Live!"

Quote from: reinko on June 10, 2015, 07:34:54 AM
As for whole MJ piece, can you fathom if James "quit" basketball after this season, forced himself onto a AA minor baseball team, made a mockery of those around him, came back to basketball, play more, quit again, come back with another team...the internet would literally explode.

I was thinking about this earlier today and remembered that when Jordan first came back, he wore #45.  He switched back to #23 in the middle of a playoff series causing the NBA to fine the team.

http://priceonomics.com/when-michael-jordan-wore-45/

I can only imagine if Lebron did this what the outrage would be.

Of course, then there was this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir0-t5Yfq-Y

Can you imagine if Lebron did this too?  Oh my...

Look, I had no problem with what Jordan did in either case.  But the idea that Lebron is doing something unprecedented as someone who enjoys the spotlight shining on him, doesn't have a good sense of history.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 11, 2015, 09:13:52 AM

I was thinking about this earlier today and remembered that when Jordan first came back, he wore #45.  He switched back to #23 in the middle of a playoff series causing the NBA to fine the team.

http://priceonomics.com/when-michael-jordan-wore-45/

I can only imagine if Lebron did this what the outrage would be.

Of course, then there was this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir0-t5Yfq-Y

Can you imagine if Lebron did this too?  Oh my...

Look, I had no problem with what Jordan did in either case.  But the idea that Lebron is doing something unprecedented as someone who enjoys the spotlight shining on him, doesn't have a good sense of history.

Only problem with that narrative is that MJ would've simply worn number 23 from the start when he returned...except that the Bulls had retired that number.  Now if MJ decided that the best player to ever wear #23 before him deserved his respect and lobbied for all NBA players to stop wearing that number, only to wear that number himself again, but only after he had his fans vote on whether he should wear it or not, then yes, there would be outrage.

Quote from: wadesworld on June 11, 2015, 09:17:46 AM
Only problem with that narrative is that MJ would've simply worn number 23 from the start when he returned...except that the Bulls had retired that number.  Now if MJ decided that the best player to ever wear #23 before him deserved his respect and lobbied for all NBA players to stop wearing that number, only to wear that number himself again, but only after he had his fans vote on whether he should wear it or not, then yes, there would be outrage.

I'm kind of on the fence on these issues, but honestly probably leaning in your direction.  But you're not serious about the bolded part, are you?  Do you think, even for a second, that MJ couldn't have worn 23 upon his return?  This is in no way a defense of LeBron or his shenanigans with jersey numbers.

Quote from: StillAWarrior on June 11, 2015, 09:22:37 AM
I'm kind of on the fence on these issues, but honestly probably leaning in your direction.  But you're not serious about the bolded part, are you?  Do you think, even for a second, that MJ couldn't have worn 23 upon his return?  This is in no way a defense of LeBron or his shenanigans with jersey numbers.

I'm sure he could have.  But maybe the Bulls didn't call the player whose jersey was retired to okay it with him  ;).

Quote from: wadesworld on June 11, 2015, 09:17:46 AM
Only problem with that narrative is that MJ would've simply worn number 23 from the start when he returned...except that the Bulls had retired that number.  Now if MJ decided that the best player to ever wear #23 before him deserved his respect and lobbied for all NBA players to stop wearing that number, only to wear that number himself again, but only after he had his fans vote on whether he should wear it or not, then yes, there would be outrage.

Why does it matter that Lebron is wearing 23....Michael Jordan supports him wearing it.  Did that number get retired by the league or something?  Honestly I don't know, I'm asking.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 11, 2015, 09:26:59 AM
Why does it matter that Lebron is wearing 23....Michael Jordan supports him wearing it.  Did that number get retired by the league or something?  Honestly I don't know, I'm asking.

I wouldn't have the slightest problem with it if LeBron had just worn 23 his entire career.  Or heck, if he wore it, then switched to 6, and then switched back to 23, without making a big deal of it each time.  But instead, when he decided he was going to change his number from 23, he had to make a public spectacle of it and lobbied for the rest of the players in the NBA to not wear #23 out of respect for MJ.  Then, a few years later, there goes LeBron choosing to wear #23.  Err, not really his choice, he let the fans choose for him.  If you are going to ask everyone in the NBA to stop wearing the #23, then you probably shouldn't wear #23 yourself.

Quote from: wadesworld on June 11, 2015, 09:17:46 AM
Only problem with that narrative is that MJ would've simply worn number 23 from the start when he returned...except that the Bulls had retired that number.  Now if MJ decided that the best player to ever wear #23 before him deserved his respect and lobbied for all NBA players to stop wearing that number, only to wear that number himself again, but only after he had his fans vote on whether he should wear it or not, then yes, there would be outrage.

My point is that 20 years ago, Jordan and others did a lot of similar things to what Lebron is doing now.  The differences are that these types of things didn't get shot around the internet in an instant and cause debate and conversations on message boards or on ESPN shows.  Even sports radio was largely in its infancy back then.  

These types of things really weren't "debated" in any significant way.  You didn't have a Skip Bayless type saying stuff like "Michael Jordan is also about himself and not the team," in order to generate eyeballs to a television show.  

Hell, Magic Johnson RETIRED from the NBA when he found out he was HIV positive.  He came back to play in that year's All-Star game.  It was somewhat controversial then, but could you imagine what it would be like now?  

Quote from: wadesworld on June 11, 2015, 09:31:28 AM
I wouldn't have the slightest problem with it if LeBron had just worn 23 his entire career.  Or heck, if he wore it, then switched to 6, and then switched back to 23, without making a big deal of it each time.  But instead, when he decided he was going to change his number from 23, he had to make a public spectacle of it and lobbied for the rest of the players in the NBA to not wear #23 out of respect for MJ.  Then, a few years later, there goes LeBron choosing to wear #23.  Err, not really his choice, he let the fans choose for him.  If you are going to ask everyone in the NBA to stop wearing the #23, then you probably shouldn't wear #23 yourself.

Read the article I linked above.  Michael Jordan didn't wear #23 because he always wanted to wear #45.  Furthermore "he'd made it clear that he wouldn't be wearing number 23 again, since it was the last number his father had seen him play in."

But then Nick Anderson trash-talks him a bit and next game he shows up in #23. 

Is that really substantially different than what Lebron did?  Did anyone say "well so much for that bit about his father?"  No.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z2O6K1GiQk

What did you think when you heard Lebron announce he was changing his name to Michael Jordan?

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 11, 2015, 09:42:00 AM

Read the article I linked above.  Michael Jordan didn't wear #23 because he always wanted to wear #45.  Furthermore "he'd made it clear that he wouldn't be wearing number 23 again, since it was the last number his father had seen him play in."

But then Nick Anderson trash-talks him a bit and next game he shows up in #23. 

Is that really substantially different than what Lebron did?  Did anyone say "well so much for that bit about his father?"  No.

Sultan, there is all kinds of recency bias going on here. LeBron is now, MJ was then, so what LeBron is doing now must be worse than what MJ did then.

Also, hero worship. Lots of folks on this board are from Chicago and worship at the altar of Michael.

And, of course, people who should know better seem not to be able to tell the difference between events that took place pre-YouTube/Facebook/Twitter/etc and post-those entities.

Jordan would have been killed for doing some of the things LeBron is doing now, and LeBron would be getting killed today for doing some of the things MJ did then. Conversely, there would have been barely a whisper about some of LeBron's doings if he had done them in 1992.

Given the incredible fishbowl in which he resides, I actually think LeBron has carried himself quite well in today's sports landscape. He's made a few blunders, but he also has been a pretty special athlete.

I find myself rooting for him. As was the case with Michael and Tiger and The Beatles and Ali and Dylan and Pujols and Nicklaus and Gretzky and Magic, I thoroughly enjoy watching a performer who is the best in the world at what he does.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 11, 2015, 09:39:15 AM

My point is that 20 years ago, Jordan and others did a lot of similar things to what Lebron is doing now.  The differences are that these types of things didn't get shot around the internet in an instant and cause debate and conversations on message boards or on ESPN shows.  Even sports radio was largely in its infancy back then.  

These types of things really weren't "debated" in any significant way.  You didn't have a Skip Bayless type saying stuff like "Michael Jordan is also about himself and not the team," in order to generate eyeballs to a television show.  

I generally agree, but MJ got a lot of heat because he was compared to Magic and Bird. Those guys made everyone around them better; Michael was all about his own numbers.

At least that was the general narrative until the Bulls started winning championships.

Quote from: MU82 on June 11, 2015, 03:28:45 PM
Sultan, there is all kinds of recency bias going on here. LeBron is now, MJ was then, so what LeBron is doing now must be worse than what MJ did then.

Also, hero worship. Lots of folks on this board are from Chicago and worship at the altar of Michael.

And, of course, people who should know better seem not to be able to tell the difference between events that took place pre-YouTube/Facebook/Twitter/etc and post-those entities.

Jordan would have been killed for doing some of the things LeBron is doing now, and LeBron would be getting killed today for doing some of the things MJ did then. Conversely, there would have been barely a whisper about some of LeBron's doings if he had done them in 1992.

Given the incredible fishbowl in which he resides, I actually think LeBron has carried himself quite well in today's sports landscape. He's made a few blunders, but he also has been a pretty special athlete.

I find myself rooting for him. As was the case with Michael and Tiger and The Beatles and Ali and Dylan and Pujols and Nicklaus and Gretzky and Magic, I thoroughly enjoy watching a performer who is the best in the world at what he does.

I pretty much agree with all of this...

Quote from: brandx on June 11, 2015, 04:09:18 PM
I generally agree, but MJ got a lot of heat because he was compared to Magic and Bird. Those guys made everyone around them better; Michael was all about his own numbers.

At least that was the general narrative until the Bulls started winning championships.

And this...

And I am rooting for Golden State in this series because I love the way they play.  But if Cleveland wins, I will recognize it for what it is.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 11, 2015, 04:37:41 PM
I pretty much agree with all of this...

And this...

And I am rooting for Golden State in this series because I love the way they play.  But if Cleveland wins, I will recognize it for what it is.

I also like the way the Warriors play, and I often find myself not liking Cleveland's offense -- lots of standing around, watching LeBron dribble down the clock at the top of the key. It's like MU's offense last season, but substitute LeBron for Derrick - ha!

I am rooting for LeBron but this is one of those situations where I will be perfectly happy if the other team wins. I like Curry and Green and several other Warriors, and Kerr is a really class act.

Is it Jordan's number or jersey that's retired, hey?

Quote from: wadesworld on June 11, 2015, 09:31:28 AM
I wouldn't have the slightest problem with it if LeBron had just worn 23 his entire career.  Or heck, if he wore it, then switched to 6, and then switched back to 23, without making a big deal of it each time.  But instead, when he decided he was going to change his number from 23, he had to make a public spectacle of it and lobbied for the rest of the players in the NBA to not wear #23 out of respect for MJ.  Then, a few years later, there goes LeBron choosing to wear #23.  Err, not really his choice, he let the fans choose for him.  If you are going to ask everyone in the NBA to stop wearing the #23, then you probably shouldn't wear #23 yourself.

And despite making that push for it, the league and others said no.  He tried, it didn't happen.  Well, he moved on.  People change their minds. 

He was for it before he was against it.....if he runs for office it will hurt him, unless he runs for office in Ohio where if they win two more games (I still don't think they will), he will win in a landslide.

Quote from: MU82 on June 11, 2015, 07:28:13 PM
I also like the way the Warriors play, and I often find myself not liking Cleveland's offense -- lots of standing around, watching LeBron dribble down the clock at the top of the key. It's like MU's offense last season, but substitute LeBron for Derrick - ha!

I am rooting for LeBron but this is one of those situations where I will be perfectly happy if the other team wins. I like Curry and Green and several other Warriors, and Kerr is a really class act.

That's because of the injuries.  The offense is what it is because of what they have in terms of warm bodies.

wades thinks that Lebron fell into that camera on purpose.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 11, 2015, 09:58:12 PM
wades thinks that Lebron fell into that camera on purpose.

So now you're not just stalking my every post to reply to it but you're posting for me hey? That's outstanding. My entertainment is no longer needed, Sultan can just post for me! Appreciate it, I could spend my time better elsewhere.

PS How's this for entertainment? Somebody thinks Joel Anthony is a good comparison for Timofy Mosgov. Hilarious.

Little douche.

:-*

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 11, 2015, 09:58:12 PM
wades thinks that Lebron fell into that camera on purpose.

:D

Quote from: wadesworld on June 11, 2015, 10:13:46 PM
So now you're not just stalking my every post to reply to it but you're posting for me hey? That's outstanding. My entertainment is no longer needed, Sultan can just post for me! Appreciate it, I could spend my time better elsewhere.

PS How's this for entertainment? Somebody thinks Joel Anthony is a good comparison for Timofy Mosgov. Hilarious.

Little douche.

:-*

Oh come on now...  Just giving you a little sh*t.

(https://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/AAmDhomZFTFuUiWHOVpbV29tf1g=/52x0:901x566/730x487/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/46521668/lemom.0.0.jpg)

Everyone needs to sit back and watch what Lebron is doing. It's great.

I noticed the announcers, and seemingly all analysts today, are just glancing over this little incident:

https://vine.co/v/eOQO5Bgl6Ol

Best team won

Yup.  The Cavaliers looked too much like the mid-80's Bulls.   One guy carrying everybody on his back.   

Quote from: jesmu84 on June 16, 2015, 11:14:32 PM
Best team won

But Andre Iguodala as MVP???

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 17, 2015, 06:22:27 AM

But Andre Iguodala as MVP???

LeBron was the MVP of the series, for whatever reason they didn't want to go that direction.  I was OK with Iggy getting it for GSW - he indispensable on both ends of the floor.  Certainly would have been fine with Curry, his shot making in several games was the difference.

Quote from: ttheisen on June 17, 2015, 08:54:03 AM
LeBron was the MVP of the series, for whatever reason they didn't want to go that direction.  I was OK with Iggy getting it for GSW - he indispensable on both ends of the floor.  Certainly would have been fine with Curry, his shot making in several games was the difference.

Besides his D on Lebron in key situations (he forced some bad shots at key times because of Iggy, regardless of his gaudy numbers), Iggy was EVERYWHERE on key plays in Game 5 and 6.  Hitting big 3s, making really good passes, getting in passing lanes, and grabbing boards.  It was great to see him get his due after being a star on some bad teams, coming to GS to be a cog in the machine, and then breaking out again.

Quote from: JWags85 on June 17, 2015, 09:23:38 AM
Besides his D on Lebron in key situations (he forced some bad shots at key times because of Iggy, regardless of his gaudy numbers), Iggy was EVERYWHERE on key plays in Game 5 and 6.  Hitting big 3s, making really good passes, getting in passing lanes, and grabbing boards.  It was great to see him get his due after being a star on some bad teams, coming to GS to be a cog in the machine, and then breaking out again.

Agreed on all points.  As a Nuggets fan, this series was full of a former players - Iggy was certainly my favorite of the bunch.

http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/post/_/id/3896/lebrons-handling-of-blatt-unbecoming

more fuel for the lebron haters and more reasons for the lovers to write off as just something all nba players do.

This all went south when King James was exposed in the pre-game huddle, hey?

Quote from: jesmu84 on June 16, 2015, 11:14:32 PM
Best team won

Based on who suited up, no doubt.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 18, 2015, 11:44:52 PM
Based on who suited up, no doubt.

If Love and Irving are healthy Golden State is still the better team. They just win in 7 instead.

Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on June 19, 2015, 07:39:05 AM
If Love and Irving are healthy Golden State is still the better team. They just win in 7 instead.

We'll never know, but I'm not sure of that.  Love may have been a real match-up problem for GS's small lineup that won them the series.  I would always expect that losing two All-Star quality players on one team would have a huge impact on a series.

Quote from: CTWarrior on June 19, 2015, 08:26:25 AM
We'll never know, but I'm not sure of that.  Love may have been a real match-up problem for GS's small lineup that won them the series.  I would always expect that losing two All-Star quality players on one team would have a huge impact on a series.

It's true that you can't know for sure but Golden State didn't win 67 games by accident in a much tougher Western Conference.  Having Irving and Love certainly improves the Cavs' offense and lightens the load on LeTurd but IMO they also lose quite a bit on the defensive side as well.  People tend to focus only on the additional scoring.  I'm also not sure Love presents that much of an additional problem considering the versatility of Golden States' players. 

Quote from: WithoutBias on June 18, 2015, 06:52:40 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/post/_/id/3896/lebrons-handling-of-blatt-unbecoming

more fuel for the lebron haters and more reasons for the lovers to write off as just something all nba players do.

Blatt didn't deny this at all.  Basically said a player like Lebron needs to feel empowered.  This, to me, is a non-issue.  CLE fans should be more concerned that Blatt basically sat Mozgov for all of game 5 after he dominated in game 4.

Quote from: MU LEE2002 on June 19, 2015, 09:39:18 AM


Blatt didn't deny this at all.  Basically said a player like Lebron needs to feel empowered.  This, to me, is a non-issue.  CLE fans should be more concerned that Blatt basically sat Mozgov for all of game 5 after he dominated in game 4.

what is blatt going to say?  "yes, lebron treated me like his little son.  he needs to learn to respect and listen to his coach."

dan gilbert: "hey coach blatt, here are a few boxes and there's the exit door.  thanks for your one year and good luck back in europe."

Blatt would probably be best in a situation where he could mold a younger team.  I don't think he is a bad coach by any means.

Couldn't find the NBA Thread in my quick look, so I'll just bump this.  Hammond extended through 2017-2018.  I like the extension.  Hopefully him and Kidd can continue to work well together.

I am not sure there ever was an NBA thread.

Quote from: MU B2002 on September 15, 2015, 07:21:55 AM
I am not sure there ever was an NBA thread.

I know there was one during the Playoffs that started before this one.  Couldn't find it though.