Not placing any blame, but this really sucks. When the hell was the last time we were last?
Love my Warriors and this just pisses me off.
It's a bloody Valentine Day for us MU fans, thats for sure.
Ah yes. Remember the Dukiet.
Every prognosticator predicted MU between 7th and 9th. And that was with Dawson, Burton, and a healthy Carlino. As one of those who predicted 10-14 wins in a preseason poll, my question continues to be...what the hell did you expect? I will make another prediction. Next year isn't going to be an instant return to glory.
Quote from: tower912 on February 14, 2015, 07:45:02 PM
Every prognosticator predicted MU between 7th and 9th. And that was with Dawson, Burton, and a healthy Carlino. As one of those who predicted 10-14 wins in a preseason poll, my question continues to be...what the hell did you expect? I will make another prediction. Next year isn't going to be an instant return to glory.
I agree. Next year equally as challenging
Hopefully addition by subtraction....we'll see.
Quote from: LittleWade on February 14, 2015, 08:26:10 PM
Equally?
Unless (maybe even if) Wojo whiffs on all four open scholarships next year will be better.
A few hours ago Villanova played Butler for first place in the Big East.
Last year Butler finished the BE season at 4-14.
Three years ago Villanova turned in a 5-13 BE mark.
This to shall pass.
10th place is much better for our deep BEast tourney run than 8th or 9th,aina?
Quote from: NotAnAlum on February 14, 2015, 09:49:32 PM
A few hours ago Villanova played Butler for first place in the Big East.
Last year Butler finished the BE season at 4-14.
Three years ago Villanova turned in a 5-13 BE mark.
This to shall pass.
This.
To '79Warrior Same Sentiments. This really SUCKS! Yep, Dukiet was bad. What happened
to the great MU Tradition? Nothing but puiss poor coaches after Al and Hank. Even Slick Rick. Hopefully Wojo can restore it and put us on the recruiting map.
Quote from: NotAnAlum on February 14, 2015, 09:49:32 PM
A few hours ago Villanova played Butler for first place in the Big East.
Last year Butler finished the BE season at 4-14.
Three years ago Villanova turned in a 5-13 BE mark.
This to shall pass.
This somehow made me feel so much better.
Quote from: 79Warrior on February 14, 2015, 07:31:41 PM
Not placing any blame, but this really sucks. When the hell was the last time we were last?
Probably the last time we had 7 players with no Jrs. or Srs. that can play.
Our 3 upperclassmen would be 5-8 minute players at best on a quality squad.
My prediction of 10-14 wins was based on a first time coach, new system, no returning height, no returning depth, no proven scoring, no one used to being the man at the college level. Our experience isn't talented and our talent isn't experienced or proven. Right now, a team without scoring has had to play without its one proven scorer.
This season has been exactly what I expected. Actually, I am pleased on one level because I wasn't expecting so many competitive losses against good teams. I was expecting a lot more blowouts.
Sure, it sucks, but we knew this year would be tough. Given the number of close losses and neat misses I'm still encouraged about the future. Honestly, this somewhat mirrors the start of Wojo's playing career at Duke. As a freshman, the Duke program, one year removed from the NCAA finals and two titles in the previous four years went 2-14 in conference and 13-18 overall. Before he left they were back in the Elite Eight.
Whether he'll have a similar turnaround remains to be seen, but one bad (yet competitive) year isn't the end. It only makes it more satisfying when we're back on top.
Quote from: tower912 on February 15, 2015, 06:12:16 AM
My prediction of 10-14 wins was based on a first time coach, new system, no returning height, no returning depth, no proven scoring, no one used to being the man at the college level. Our experience isn't talented and our talent isn't experienced or proven. Right now, a team without scoring has had to play without its one proven scorer.
This season has been exactly what I expected. Actually, I am pleased on one level because I wasn't expecting so many competitive losses against good teams. I was expecting a lot more blowouts.
This ...
All this thread shows is how delusional this board is after 20+ games. When are you going to to realize this is not a good team because it lacks talent? It always has.
Quote from: tower912 on February 15, 2015, 06:12:16 AM
My prediction of 10-14 wins was based on a first time coach, new system, no returning height, no returning depth, no proven scoring, no one used to being the man at the college level. Our experience isn't talented and our talent isn't experienced or proven. Right now, a team without scoring has had to play without its one proven scorer.
This season has been exactly what I expected. Actually, I am pleased on one level because I wasn't expecting so many competitive losses against good teams. I was expecting a lot more blowouts.
You and me both, tower.
Quote from: NotAnAlum on February 14, 2015, 09:49:32 PM
A few hours ago Villanova played Butler for first place in the Big East.
Last year Butler finished the BE season at 4-14.
Three years ago Villanova turned in a 5-13 BE mark.
This to shall pass.
That is one way to look at it. Another way: last year we were 9-9, this year 3-10. Going in the wrong direction. Yes, we sure as hell hope this will pass.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 15, 2015, 10:39:25 AM
That is one way to look at it. Another way: last year we were 9-9, this year 3-10. Going in the wrong direction. Yes, we sure as hell hope this will pass.
You're only as good as next year's recruiting class ... and that class is one of the highest ever.
No, you are only as good as what you have coming back. If you are pinning your hopes on kids currently in high school in Wisconsin, a whole raft of them, all contributing immediately, you may get lucky, but you are more than likely whistling past the graveyard.
I attended Marquette between 1984-1988...by the time I left we had about as much talent as UW-Stout. And...no hope on the horizon. This sure feels different to me. One recruiting class does not an upswing make...but it sure is a good start. I knew this would be a transition year (or two) and am still disappointed in the results this year as we left a lot of wins on the table in close games, but, I am more hopeful than ever going forward. That may not pan out, but, I choose to give Coach and the program my optimism and look forward to washing this eyesore of a season out of my memory.
Given what the roster complexion was at the start of this season, this year has been a disaster. Wojo's allocation of roster resources/talent and playing time awarded paved the way for this disaster.
And let's stop with all the talk of next year's recruiting class. Virtually every poster here who continues to make excuses for Wojo has said all year long recruiting rankings don't matter.
Of the coaches at Marquette, going back to Hickey, there have only been two who have made constant adjustments to try and get more from the team. One was Hank. The other is Wojo.
Wojo continues to make adjustments - different mixes on defence and different offensive sets - from game to game, and during games. Wojo tries to adapt his offence and defence, within the limits of the eight players on the team. He always puts together good game plans.
We all know it has not worked. We all know with one more physical inside player (Otule, or Gardner, for instance), this would be a totally different team. This could be skinniest team in the Big East. But, I think there is something else.
During the first one-third of the BE season the Warriors lost some games they should have won ... DePaul, the one inch game at home against Georgetown, etc.
The fact that they didn't win, I believe, left a mark on this team. They have a good coach, a good game plan, they play hard, but deep down it does not seem they have the confidence in themselves because of these earlier loses. As a result, they often implode and lose.
So, add it up ... no talent, no point guard, no inside bangers, no confidence, only two players who have any court sense, their best scorer is out three games, and a coach who is doing everything possible to get the most out of them.
In the end, it is not X's and O's, it is players. And, this year the team is short of players.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 15, 2015, 01:00:00 PM
Given what the roster complexion was at the start of this season, this year has been a disaster. Wojo's allocation of roster resources/talent and playing time awarded paved the way for this disaster.
And let's stop with all the talk of next year's recruiting class. Virtually every poster here who continues to make excuses for Wojo has said all year long recruiting rankings don't matter.
When you get guys rated 50 to 100....a bunch of them don't pan out. Plenty of examples at MU over the years and many other places. You get fewer misses when you are 25 to 50, or 1 to 25....but rankings are what they are...subjective. We'll see how it goes.
As for the allocation of resources and talent, all I can say is Buzz and Wojo BOTH have made the same decision on the PG position. I have no doubt Wojo wants to upgrade the position in a material way, plus bring in shooters (which Buzz seemed to never really give a crap about...just "out athlete" them and all will be fine).
This is why judging coaches in the first year or even years is a fool's errand.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 15, 2015, 01:07:53 PM
When you get guys rated 50 to 100....a bunch of them don't pan out. Plenty of examples at MU over the years and many other places. You get fewer misses when you are 25 to 50, or 1 to 25....but rankings are what they are...subjective. We'll see how it goes.
As for the allocation of resources and talent, all I can say is Buzz and Wojo BOTH have made the same decision on the PG position. I have no doubt Wojo wants to upgrade the position in a material way, plus bring in shooters (which Buzz seemed to never really give a crap about...just "out athlete" them and all will be fine).
This is why judging coaches in the first year or even years is a fool's errand.
Please remind me of recruits in Top 25-75 who haven't been good at MU? Burton, JJJ, Duane, Luke all were in the 25-50 range by different services - all of them in Top 75 by any composite ratings.
And yes, Wojo and Buzz came to the same conclusion regarding PG playing time. And both turned in crap coaching performances..
Anybody bitching about playing time allocation just needs to look at a few boxscores. Everyone is playing plenty of minutes.
Really there is nothing Wojo can do that he isn't already trying.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 15, 2015, 01:31:52 PM
Please remind me of recruits in Top 25-75 who haven't been good at MU? Burton, JJJ, Duane, Luke all were in the 25-50 range by different services - all of them in Top 75 by any composite ratings.
And yes, Wojo and Buzz came to the same conclusion regarding PG playing time. And both turned in crap coaching performances..
Erik Williams was number 67 consensus.
Junior Cadougan...I know some here loved him, I thought he was a good PG but not a great PG. Not becoming of a top 50 recruit (consensus #47)
Jamail Jones...consensus #74....nothing more need be said.
Hiroshima manifestation. St. Louis, no more Dick,etc.
It all came home to roost.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 15, 2015, 01:40:06 PM
Anybody bitching about playing time allocation just needs to look at a few boxscores. Everyone is playing plenty of minutes.
Really there is nothing Wojo can do that he isn't already trying.
Wrong again, Sultan. He can reduce Derrick's minutes and put Duane/Carlino to more minutes at PG, distributing those reduced minutes of Derrick's to Sandy and JJJ.
Really, there is something Wojo can do, and that is certainly one thing he "has not tried". Really, he can Sultan--recognize that.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 15, 2015, 02:49:19 PM
Wrong again, Sultan. He can reduce Derrick's minutes and put Duane/Carlino to more minutes at PG, distributing those reduced minutes of Derrick's to Sandy and JJJ.
Really, there is something Wojo can do, and that is certainly one thing he "has not tried". Really, he can Sultan--recognize that.
LOL...OK.
I mean I guess he could play Juan at point too. Or how about Luke?
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 15, 2015, 03:00:59 PM
LOL...OK.
I mean I guess he could play Juan at point too. Or how about Luke?
LMAO--Both Carlino and Duane can play the point. The others-no. Answer the question: What are you afraid of by trying reducing minutes of Derrick and giving more to Sandy and JJJ at the 2G, and playing Carlino/Duane at the point. Are you that enamored with the current performance?
The answer is either crickets, or it might show us something we had not considered. Somebody's ego might be bruised?
Now calm down.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 15, 2015, 01:46:41 PM
Junior Cadougan...I know some here loved him, I thought he was a good PG but not a great PG. Not becoming of a top 50 recruit (consensus #47)
Hate on Junior all you want, but I think he won more NCAA tournament games than any PG in Marquette history (Butch Lee was not a point guard). So either he's pretty good or Buzz was a genius.
Buzz was a genius. IMO, the only one who could have made this year go well is in Blacksburg. The class he would have brought in, in addition to a JUCO or two could have salvaged it. Of course, it would have required that admin give him what he want in regards to admissions as well as him being willing to play young guys. Neither of which were likely. But, he decided to walk, so Wojo plays the team he has, not the team we wish he had. IMO, Wojo has performed to my expectations of a first time head coach. And his mixing of defenses gives me hope that he can grow beyond K's shadow.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 15, 2015, 03:24:47 PM
LMAO--Both Carlino and Duane can play the point. The others-no. Answer the question: What are you afraid of by trying reducing minutes of Derrick and giving more to Sandy and JJJ at the 2G, and playing Carlino/Duane at the point. Are you that enamored with the current performance?
The answer is either crickets, or it might show us something we had not considered. Somebody's ego might be bruised?
That's not new. Sandy and JJJ play a lot. When they are hot, they stay on the floor.
Look, you and I agree this is an incomplete team and it is hard to judge Wojo accordingly.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 14, 2015, 09:30:45 PM
Unless (maybe even if) Wojo whiffs on all four open scholarships next year will be better.
At this point I think he has earned the benefit of the doubt.
Am I the only one who remembers that KenPom projected MU to go 1-17 in the Big East after the loss to Omaha? Prognosticators, stats...... the only ones who truly thought MU was going to succeed this year is Murf and some people on this board. Time to face it. The entire rest of the world was right.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on February 15, 2015, 03:56:27 PM
That's not new. Sandy and JJJ play a lot. When they are hot, they stay on the floor.
Look, you and I agree this is an incomplete team and it is hard to judge Wojo accordingly.
Yeah they stay on the floor for a few minutes but that does not eat into Derricks minutes. It eats into our only other offensive threat's minutes, Duane. And we still keep losing.
But you completely ignore the question. I'll put that down as crickets and bruised ego if it would work to reduce Derrick's minutes. It sure as hell would not make it worse.
Quote from: tower912 on February 15, 2015, 06:23:46 PM
Am I the only one who remembers that KenPom projected MU to go 1-17 in the Big East after the loss to Omaha? Prognosticators, stats...... the only ones who truly thought MU was going to succeed this year is Murf and some people on this board. Time to face it. The entire rest of the world was right.
But Luke was going to fix everything!!!!
Quote from: g0lden3agle on February 15, 2015, 06:37:30 PM
But Luke was going to fix everything!!!!
He's really just the 6'10" version of JJJ that always gets a free pass for his poor play.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 15, 2015, 01:00:00 PM
And let's stop with all the talk of next year's recruiting class. Virtually every poster here who continues to make excuses for Wojo has said all year long recruiting rankings don't matter.
This point has been addressed ad nasuem. Recruiting rankings matter. Actual on the court performance matters 100x more. Since we don't have any on the court performance to judge the 2015 class on, we rely on recruiting rankings. The 2013 class, we had an entire year of on the court performance to evaluate when Wojo took over. Guess what? It wasn't pretty.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 15, 2015, 06:39:14 PM
He's really just the 6'10" version of JJJ that always gets a free pass for his poor play.
And you are a Fischer bashing version of Ners who never gets criticized for your weak posts.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 16, 2015, 08:04:09 AM
This point has been addressed ad nasuem. Recruiting rankings matter. Actual on the court performance matters 100x more. Since we don't have any on the court performance to judge the 2015 class on, we rely on recruiting rankings. The 2013 class, we had an entire year of on the court performance to evaluate when Wojo took over. Guess what? It wasn't pretty.
We expected these guys to be like the Amigos, which was not a realistic expectation. The biggest problem with last year's team was too many recruiting mistakes in the back court...and Vander turning pro.
If Vander stays with the team AND either Jamail Jones, TJ Taylor or Jamal Ferguson pan out, last year's team would have been A LOT better. The freshman would have been reduced to role players would IMO would have helped our expectations tremendously.
Quote from: 79Warrior on February 14, 2015, 07:31:41 PM
Not placing any blame, but this really sucks. When the hell was the last time we were last?
Love my Warriors and this just pisses me off.
It's a bloody Valentine Day for us MU fans, thats for sure.
In a league where more than half the teams are not above .500 in conference play, being tied for ninth out of 10 teams somehow doesn't affect me one bit.
Quote from: tower912 on February 15, 2015, 06:12:16 AM
My prediction of 10-14 wins was based on a first time coach, new system, no returning height, no returning depth, no proven scoring, no one used to being the man at the college level. Our experience isn't talented and our talent isn't experienced or proven. Right now, a team without scoring has had to play without its one proven scorer.
This season has been exactly what I expected. Actually, I am pleased on one level because I wasn't expecting so many competitive losses against good teams. I was expecting a lot more blowouts.
Exactly.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 16, 2015, 08:04:09 AM
This point has been addressed ad nasuem. Recruiting rankings matter. Actual on the court performance matters 100x more. Since we don't have any on the court performance to judge the 2015 class on, we rely on recruiting rankings. The 2013 class, we had an entire year of on the court performance to evaluate when Wojo took over. Guess what? It wasn't pretty.
Exactly.
Or is it Wojo's fault that Juan Anderson's four-year career doesn't reflect what a top-100 recruit should have been?
Gardner was ranked a zillion in high school but proved in college that he was good. Erik Williams was ranked high in high school but proved in college that he was no good. As soon as they have spent time in a college program, their high school rank matters little to none. When they are in HS, as the next crop of recruits still are, all we have to go on are the rankings.
Why is this such a difficult concept for some to grasp?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 16, 2015, 08:04:09 AM
This point has been addressed ad nasuem. Recruiting rankings matter. Actual on the court performance matters 100x more. Since we don't have any on the court performance to judge the 2015 class on, we rely on recruiting rankings. The 2013 class, we had an entire year of on the court performance to evaluate when Wojo took over. Guess what? It wasn't pretty.
I agree on court performance matters a ton to judge a player - which is why it is hard to eval a guy who gets 10-15 minutes per game every third game. And was the 2013 class on court performance really "not pretty?" Buzz greatly limited all of Burton, JJJ and Dawson last year. So really, the data we had in the way of their on court capabilities was still limited. Nonetheless, Burton was good enough in 12 minutes per game to get All Big East freshman honors. JJJ largely got an incomplete, yet most Top 30 recruits are not busts. And Dawson, in his limited Big East playing time was performing on par with a 3-star recruit. Actually, it could be argued Dawson's play in Big East was on the level of what Sandy Cohen has performed thus far - albeit Dawson's minutes were less, and role far more inconsistent than the consistent playing time Cohen has gotten.
But, I know you and others on your side of the aisle have your narrative - That the deck was so stacked against Wojo this year, that the 11-14 record and last place in the Big East is on par with what could be expected.
Quote from: Golden Avalanche on February 16, 2015, 08:51:36 AM
In a league where more than half the teams are not above .500 in conference play, being tied for ninth out of 10 teams somehow doesn't affect me one bit.
Ah yes--another excuse for our poor performance this year. There is nothing to be done about it, but we sure as hell should not be accepting of that performance by offering excuses.
Here is the main reason: The phony cowboy set the program back 3 years with his BS. Which I am sure that is why some to this day still slurp the dunderhead. Go figure!
Quote from: willie warrior on February 15, 2015, 10:39:25 AM
That is one way to look at it. Another way: last year we were 9-9, this year 3-10. Going in the wrong direction. Yes, we sure as hell hope this will pass.
Many of your posts are like gallstones that I wish would pass...
Quote from: tower912 on February 15, 2015, 12:12:39 PM
No, you are only as good as what you have coming back. If you are pinning your hopes on kids currently in high school in Wisconsin, a whole raft of them, all contributing immediately, you may get lucky, but you are more than likely whistling past the graveyard.
Pro freshmen: Seton Hall's first half of the year.
Con freshmen: Seton Hall's second half of the year.
Quote from: LittleWade on February 16, 2015, 11:36:18 AM
Many of your posts are like gallstones that I wish would pass...
As are yours!!!
Talking about Seton Hall--- I read an article that Whitehead would only pass the ball Delgado's way
and not to a wide open Sterling Gibbs, also Jared Sina quit the team and both he and Gibbs would not go into the dressing room after a recent game. Sina was the point guard and Gibbs the leading scorer. Boy, did the 'Hall take a dive. And aforementioned, we do need a STUD point guard, Freshman or JC.
Traci Carter?
I don't like seeing my team struggle. But it's nothing new, and it doesn't necessarily mean anything for the future.
Al McGuire himself went 8-18 in his first season. Kevin O'Neill led the Warriors to records of 15-14, 11-18 and 16-13 — hardly the precursor of the team that would knock Rick Pitino's Kentucky Wildcats out of the NCAA tourney and advance to the Sweet 16 just 2 years later.
Good players and good coaches don't always win. But when they don't, they keep fighting, keep working, learn what they can and find a way to come back stronger. Only time will tell. But I see a lot to look forward to.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 15, 2015, 06:39:14 PM
He's really just the 6'10" version of JJJ that always gets a free pass for his poor play.
Except that Luke shoots much, much, better and can occasionally play defense.
Quote from: TSmith34 on February 16, 2015, 04:59:13 PM
Except that Luke shoots much, much, better and can occasionally play defense.
Considering all his shots are from inside of six feet he should be shooting better than any of our back court players.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 15, 2015, 02:49:19 PM
Wrong again, Sultan. He can reduce Derrick's minutes and put Duane/Carlino to more minutes at PG, distributing those reduced minutes of Derrick's to Sandy and JJJ.
Duane *might* be able to play the point, but I think he is much better suited as the two guard. I think he would hurt his development forcing the responsibility of the point on him. That said, they may not have a better alternative next year.
I don't think Carlino was ever an option at PG. He looked completely unable to break a press. At the first sign of pressure he starts dribbling backwards and looking frantic, and his passing has been erratic. And, I think he is much better as a catch and shoot guy than creating off the dribble.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 16, 2015, 05:01:54 PM
Considering all his shots are from inside of six feet he should be shooting better than any of our back court players.
He is. 10% better than the next best (Juan ??!?!) and 20% better than JJJ.
Quote from: TSmith34 on February 16, 2015, 05:08:59 PM
He is. 10% better than the next best (Juan ??!?!) and 20% better than JJJ.
Right - AS HE SHOULD BE.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 16, 2015, 05:01:54 PM
Considering all his shots are from inside of six feet he should be shooting better than any of our back court players...except Derrick Wilson who only shoots from inside of six feet other than his 3 point FG attempts on the season
Fixed.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 16, 2015, 10:40:56 AM
I agree on court performance matters a ton to judge a player - which is why it is hard to eval a guy who gets 10-15 minutes per game every third game. And was the 2013 class on court performance really "not pretty?" Buzz greatly limited all of Burton, JJJ and Dawson last year. So really, the data we had in the way of their on court capabilities was still limited. Nonetheless, Burton was good enough in 12 minutes per game to get All Big East freshman honors. JJJ largely got an incomplete, yet most Top 30 recruits are not busts. And Dawson, in his limited Big East playing time was performing on par with a 3-star recruit. Actually, it could be argued Dawson's play in Big East was on the level of what Sandy Cohen has performed thus far - albeit Dawson's minutes were less, and role far more inconsistent than the consistent playing time Cohen has gotten.
But, I know you and others on your side of the aisle have your narrative - That the deck was so stacked against Wojo this year, that the 11-14 record and last place in the Big East is on par with what could be expected.
And this is where we will never agree. You and others hoped against hope that Big Bad Buzz Williams was giving the administration a middle finger by benching our best players. And that as soon as Wojo took the shackles off, we would be good again. The rest of us said "huh, they can't even earn minutes on this crappy team, they must be limited players." Which is what I think most people would assume in that situation. Then when Wojo took over and did the same thing as the previous administration, most people accepted what they had denied the previous season.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 16, 2015, 07:54:24 PM
Fixed.
So throwing in a jab at Derrick was necessary to a conversation about Luke Fischer?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 17, 2015, 09:31:25 AM
And this is where we will never agree. You and others hoped against hope that Big Bad Buzz Williams was giving the administration a middle finger by benching our best players. And that as soon as Wojo took the shackles off, we would be good again. The rest of us said "huh, they can't even earn minutes on this crappy team, they must be limited players." Which is what I think most people would assume in that situation. Then when Wojo took over and did the same thing as the previous administration, most people accepted what they had denied the previous season.
Jake Thomas played more minutes than Todd Mayo.
Juan Anderson played more minutes than Deonte Burton.
And PS: I wouldn't exactly endorse Buzz or Wojo's coaching performance these last two years. Their decision-making got us exactly what we earned: horse sh$t record both seasons relative to the talent on the roster.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 17, 2015, 09:31:25 AM
And this is where we will never agree. You and others hoped against hope that Big Bad Buzz Williams was giving the administration a middle finger by benching our best players. And that as soon as Wojo took the shackles off, we would be good again. The rest of us said "huh, they can't even earn minutes on this crappy team, they must be limited players." Which is what I think most people would assume in that situation. Then when Wojo took over and did the same thing as the previous administration, most people accepted what they had denied the previous season.
TAMU-
You know I've advocated for Derrick this season when talking to Ners, but at this point in the season there's really no harm.
I understand Seton Hall played a horrible game against us, but even so nobody hear gave us much of a chance without Carlino. That win for the underclassmen who have all had their ups and downs was important. Hanging on to win a close game relying on Duane Wilson, JJJ and Cohen was huge.
I'd much prefer any 'experimentation' with Duane at the point happen at this point of a meaningless season rather than in any game next year that actually has an impact on a team with a fresh slate. Either he shows you enough that you can build and teach from it or he doesn't, but it doesn't change the outcome of what the 2014-2015 MUBB program has done.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 17, 2015, 09:38:08 AM
Jake Thomas played more minutes than Todd Mayo.
Juan Anderson played more minutes than Deonte Burton.
And PS: I wouldn't exactly endorse Buzz or Wojo's coaching performance these last two years. Their decision-making got us exactly what we earned: horse sh$t record both seasons relative to the talent on the roster.
Jake Thomas was our only three point shooter.
Todd Mayo had off the court issues.
Most importantly, they played different positions so were usually on the court at the same time.
Deonte was better than Juan overall. But Juan was the superior rebounder and defender.
Last season we had enough talent to win...except our quarterback sucked. And the backup sucked worse. We were the Cleveland Browns. (Yes, I just made a joke at Johnny Football's expense)
Going into this season, any neutral observer could have told you that we only had the talent for at best a 7th place finish in conference.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 17, 2015, 09:48:36 AM
TAMU-
You know I've advocated for Derrick this season when talking to Ners, but at this point in the season there's really no harm.
I understand Seton Hall played a horrible game against us, but even so nobody hear gave us much of a chance without Carlino. That win for the underclassmen who have all had their ups and downs was important. Hanging on to win a close game relying on Duane Wilson, JJJ and Cohen was huge.
I'd much prefer any 'experimentation' with Duane at the point happen at this point of a meaningless season rather than in any game next year that actually has an impact on a team with a fresh slate. Either he shows you enough that you can build and teach from it or he doesn't, but it doesn't change the outcome of what the 2014-2015 MUBB program has done.
I understand and accept this logic.
I just put a lesser value on playing time when it comes to player development.
The 30ish extra minutes of playing time the young guys would get aren't going to make them that much better. I'd understand if a coach instead wanted to use those minutes to reward upperclassmen who are playing their final games. I'd also understand why a coach would want to win every game, regardless of the team's record.
Basically, at this point, I don't care who gets playing time. As long as Wojo doesn't start playing the twins during actual game time.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 17, 2015, 09:48:36 AM
TAMU-
You know I've advocated for Derrick this season when talking to Ners, but at this point in the season there's really no harm.
I understand Seton Hall played a horrible game against us, but even so nobody hear gave us much of a chance without Carlino. That win for the underclassmen who have all had their ups and downs was important. Hanging on to win a close game relying on Duane Wilson, JJJ and Cohen was huge.
I'd much prefer any 'experimentation' with Duane at the point happen at this point of a meaningless season rather than in any game next year that actually has an impact on a team with a fresh slate. Either he shows you enough that you can build and teach from it or he doesn't, but it doesn't change the outcome of what the 2014-2015 MUBB program has done.
I'm not sure why you keep insisting that having Duane play point in 6 meaningless games at the end of the season when he likely has not practiced in that manner is going to have any significant positive impact. Once again, any material improvement will happen in the offseason. Let it go.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 17, 2015, 09:48:36 AM
TAMU-
You know I've advocated for Derrick this season when talking to Ners, but at this point in the season there's really no harm.
I understand Seton Hall played a horrible game against us, but even so nobody hear gave us much of a chance without Carlino. That win for the underclassmen who have all had their ups and downs was important. Hanging on to win a close game relying on Duane Wilson, JJJ and Cohen was huge.
I'd much prefer any 'experimentation' with Duane at the point happen at this point of a meaningless season rather than in any game next year that actually has an impact on a team with a fresh slate. Either he shows you enough that you can build and teach from it or he doesn't, but it doesn't change the outcome of what the 2014-2015 MUBB program has done.
No disagreement. This isn't like last year when we were 17-11, 9-6 and clinging to some thread of hope for the season. Hope left the building awhile ago. I don't think Duane is a point guard but there's no harm in finding out for sure.
Quote from: TSmith34 on February 16, 2015, 05:05:47 PM
Duane *might* be able to play the point, but I think he is much better suited as the two guard. I think he would hurt his development forcing the responsibility of the point on him. That said, they may not have a better alternative next year.
I don't think Carlino was ever an option at PG. He looked completely unable to break a press. At the first sign of pressure he starts dribbling backwards and looking frantic, and his passing has been erratic. And, I think he is much better as a catch and shoot guy than creating off the dribble.
But Carlino does play the point when Derrick sits for three minutes in a game. So he was and is an option at PG. He has played PG in the past. Duane played PG in HS.
Bot no, we can't reduce Derrick's minutes to give some time to Duane at PG to see how he does---because we believe it will hurt us, How????? Might bruise some egos if it works out? Huh, maybe?
Quote from: willie warrior on February 17, 2015, 10:39:35 AM
But Carlino does play the point when Derrick sits for three minutes in a game. So he was and is an option at PG. He has played PG in the past. Duane played PG in HS.
Bot no, we can't reduce Derrick's minutes to give some time to Duane at PG to see how he does---because we believe it will hurt us, How????? Might bruise some egos if it works out? Huh, maybe?
Do you really think Carlino was at his best with the ball in his hands vs. off the ball working off screens?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 17, 2015, 10:30:23 AM
Jake Thomas was our only three point shooter.
Todd Mayo had off the court issues.
Most importantly, they played different positions so were usually on the court at the same time.
Deonte was better than Juan overall. But Juan was the superior rebounder and defender.
Last season we had enough talent to win...except our quarterback sucked. And the backup sucked worse. We were the Cleveland Browns. (Yes, I just made a joke at Johnny Football's expense)
Going into this season, any neutral observer could have told you that we only had the talent for at best a 7th place finish in conference.
Well I do appreciate you finally essentially admitting what the real reason was for why we lost last year after being picked to win the Big East conference with more returning experience under a proven coach, Buzz, than ever before.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 17, 2015, 11:16:18 AM
Well I do appreciate you finally essentially admitting what the real reason was for why we lost last year after being picked to win the Big East conference with more returning experience under a proven coach, Buzz, than ever before.
You say that like it's the first time TAMU has admitted we could have used a better PG
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 17, 2015, 10:36:03 AM
No disagreement. This isn't like last year when we were 17-11, 9-6 and clinging to some thread of hope for the season. Hope left the building awhile ago. I don't think Duane is a point guard but there's no harm in finding out for sure.
Fair. I think Wojo will take a continuing opportunity to evaluate Du at the point, especially with Carlino back.
Quote from: g0lden3agle on February 17, 2015, 11:21:11 AM
You say that like it's the first time TAMU has admitted we could have used a better PG
It's the first time TAMU admitted THE reason why we were bad last year. I respect him for finally acknowledging the obvious, even while others tried to delude themselves into thinking there were other reasons we were bad last year.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 17, 2015, 09:38:08 AM
Jake Thomas played more minutes than Todd Mayo.
Juan Anderson played more minutes than Deonte Burton.
And PS: I wouldn't exactly endorse Buzz or Wojo's coaching performance these last two years. Their decision-making got us exactly what we earned: horse sh$t record both seasons relative to the talent on the roster.
This is where I disagree with you. What talent is on the roster this year? Where is it?
We have 8 players which I would categorize as follows:
2 (Juan and Derrick) who are overmatched at this level of competition, and never should have been recruited to this high of a level. Both are high character, max effort guys, but neither have any business being high minute players on a good team.
3 (Carlino, Duane, Luke) who are legitimate high major starters, but 2 of them have less than a year of college basketball experience.
2 (Sandy and JJJ) who are wildcards, they have potential and could end up being good players with time but are clearly not there yet. Each have things they need to work on to develop into legitimate high major players.
1 (Taylor) who is playing badly out of position and I'm not quite sure how to categorize. Sure looked like a high major player year 1. Wasn't good at all year 2. Has shown that he could be a contributor if playing his preferred position in year 3, but nothing is guaranteed with him. Injuries may have robbed him of a better career.
How can you look at this roster and say we've badly underachieved? Buzz completely whiffed on the 2011 and 2012 recruiting classes, and it's left us in a situation where we have significantly less talent than every team in our league, minus DePaul and Creighton. It's been frustrating as hell to be a MU fan this year, but it's not because we're underachieving. We have very limited talent.
Quote from: NersEllenson on February 17, 2015, 11:16:18 AM
Well I do appreciate you finally essentially admitting what the real reason was for why we lost last year after being picked to win the Big East conference with more returning experience under a proven coach, Buzz, than ever before.
Have said it many times before. I didn't think Derrick was good. I just thought Dawson, Mayo, and Jamil at point were worse. I also think that there were many more issues on the team than just Derrick.
Quote from: MUEagle1090 on February 17, 2015, 12:35:03 PM
This is where I disagree with you. What talent is on the roster this year? Where is it?
We have 8 players which I would categorize as follows:
2 (Juan and Derrick) who are overmatched at this level of competition, and never should have been recruited to this high of a level. Both are high character, max effort guys, but neither have any business being high minute players on a good team.
3 (Carlino, Duane, Luke) who are legitimate high major starters, but 2 of them have less than a year of college basketball experience.
2 (Sandy and JJJ) who are wildcards, they have potential and could end up being good players with time but are clearly not there yet. Each have things they need to work on to develop into legitimate high major players.
1 (Taylor) who is playing badly out of position and I'm not quite sure how to categorize. Sure looked like a high major player year 1. Wasn't good at all year 2. Has shown that he could be a contributor if playing his preferred position in year 3, but nothing is guaranteed with him. Injuries may have robbed him of a better career.
How can you look at this roster and say we've badly underachieved? Buzz completely whiffed on the 2011 and 2012 recruiting classes, and it's left us in a situation where we have significantly less talent than every team in our league, minus DePaul and Creighton. It's been frustrating as hell to be a MU fan this year, but it's not because we're underachieving. We have very limited talent.
So which players get the most playing time?? The first two most overmatched on your list. See a disconnect? (Though Juan does have some value, and would be an effective player for 20 minutes a game on a winning team.)
And again, Wojo lost Burton and Dawson. Few would debate Burton was a talent. I believe Dawson was also a good talent/prospect but Wojo refused to give him any playing time, yet Buzz did give him quite a bit of run as a freshman in non-conference. Highly unlikely Dawson regressed.
We don't have to be 8strong. Wojo lost buy in from two players.
JJJ is a Top 30 player. He started the season off getting big minutes, and then it's been all over the board for him. How can you expect any kind of consistent performance when your minutes are all over the place?
Carlino has been a Top 10 player in Big East play and is a Top 10 player in the conference.
Duane will be All Big East first team freshman.
Luke is a serviceable big.
I'm sorry, I simply don't see what we had going into the year being a 3-10 outfit and most likely end up being a 4-14 Big East team.
Quote from: g0lden3agle on February 17, 2015, 11:08:07 AM
Do you really think Carlino was at his best with the ball in his hands vs. off the ball working off screens?
If you read any of my past posts, I have said reduce Derrick's minutes to say 20, take those reduced minutes and give to Carlino/Duane at the point, and give their time away from 2G to Sandy and JJJ. No, Carlino is not the best with the ball in his hands--but guess what--that is Wojo's philosophy at crunch time, any way. He plays point and has played point. And to make it even more clear--if you have Duane at the point and Carlino at the 2G and Sandy/JJJ at the third Guard/Swing, you have more scoring options and 3 point options out there than with Derrick at PG.
This would also give everybody involved a better idea if Duane can effectively play the point and needed development time. What if we do not land a proven PG for next year? He may be better suited at the 2G but we will have lots of people at that position for next year anyhow: Sandy, Duane, JJJ, Cheatham. What is the harm at doing this for the last few games anyway, to find out?
If you have 120 minutes to split at three guards, and 40 at the point, by reducing Derrick's minutes to 20 or so:
PG Derrick 20-22 minutes; Duane 10 plus minutes; Carlino, the remainder
Other 2 G's: Carlino 25-27 minutes; Duane: 25 minutes; Sandy/JJJ remainder.
You get more offense, development of Duane, JJJ and Sandy, and a more definitive glimpse whether Duane would be effective. If it does not work for Duane at PG, you have lost nothing.
I am guessing that with Duane's talent and athleticism he would be able to handle PG. While still young, he may have some struggles along the way, but certainly nothing like Derrick had.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 17, 2015, 01:08:01 PM
If you read any of my past posts, I have said reduce Derrick's minutes to say 20, take those reduced minutes and give to Carlino/Duane at the point, and give their time away from 2G to Sandy and JJJ. No, Carlino is not the best with the ball in his hands--but guess what--that is Wojo's philosophy at crunch time, any way. He plays point and has played point. And to make it even more clear--if you have Duane at the point and Carlino at the 2G and Sandy/JJJ at the third Guard/Swing, you have more scoring options and 3 point options out there than with Derrick at PG.
This would also give everybody involved a better idea if Duane can effectively play the point and needed development time. What if we do not land a proven PG for next year? He may be better suited at the 2G but we will have lots of people at that position for next year anyhow: Sandy, Duane, JJJ, Cheatham. What is the harm at doing this for the last few games anyway, to find out?
If you have 120 minutes to split at three guards, and 40 at the point, by reducing Derrick's minutes to 20 or so:
PG Derrick 20-22 minutes; Duane 10 plus minutes; Carlino, the remainder
Other 2 G's: Carlino 25-27 minutes; Duane: 25 minutes; Sandy/JJJ remainder.
You get more offense, development of Duane, JJJ and Sandy, and a more definitive glimpse whether Duane would be effective. If it does not work for Duane at PG, you have lost nothing.
I am guessing that with Duane's talent and athleticism he would be able to handle PG. While still young, he may have some struggles along the way, but certainly nothing like Derrick had.
Completely agree with this.