MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 79Warrior on February 14, 2015, 01:47:25 PM
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is realizing how much work we have cut out for us next season. Watching the young guys today, it is hard to imagine that they are going to improve dramatically enough to make next season much better than this one.
We have basically five serviceable players returning, and two legit starters in that group. HE will make it easier for Luke, but not much improvement beyond that. I fear another long season for MU fans.
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Yeah, rough year. But we've been playing 7 guys for the last 3 games and 8 for the majority of the season. That will catch up to most teams.
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Hank, junior Luke, sophomore Duane >>>>> Carlino, freshman Duane, sophomore Luke.
We'll be a bubble team next year. Hopefully Wojo gets a strong 2016 class and if he does so we'll be where we should be in 2 years.
Can only get better.
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It's possible Taylor is getting to 100%. Duane is really good, Fischer is above average, Cohen is like Juan with a Juno shot, Ellenson should score 10 a game next year and 4 open scholarships. Next year will be better, addition by subtraction. The seniors are flat out bad.
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It's possible Taylor is getting to 100%. Duane is really good, Fischer is above average, Cohen is like Juan with a Juno shot, Ellenson should score 10 a game next year and 4 open scholarships. Next year will be better, addition by subtraction. The seniors are flat out bad.
I think Juan in WAY more athletic than Cohen. Sandy has a better outside shot, but can't see anything else about his game that makes me think he'll be better than Juan. He doesn't hustle like Juan does, he isn't as physical, he's slower off the dribble, he doesn't rebound as well, etc.
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It's possible Taylor is getting to 100%. Duane is really good, Fischer is above average, Cohen is like Juan with a Juno shot, Ellenson should score 10 a game next year and 4 open scholarships. Next year will be better, addition by subtraction. The seniors are flat out bad.
Fisher is not above average. Gets pushed around way to easily down low and struggles to score when his right handed hook shot gets stopped by stronger players down low that push him to far from the basket. Average at best but I expect him to be above average his senior year which is two years out. 4 open scholarships for next year at this stage of the season is a problem.
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I think the current players will improve.
I think HE will have a nice impact.
I think we will have to find a point guard and a physical, power forward type who can contribute immediately. A shooter would be nice too.
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Can we really comment on next season until we see what Wojo does with the open schollies? If this year is like last year, their will be dozens of graduate transfers (Lockett, Carlino) who can play next fall. Hundreds of regular transfers (last year had more than 500), Jucos (who can play next year) as well as unsigned seniors.
Potentially 1/3 of next year's roster is still to be determined. And that list could/should include starters and impact players.
Way too early to talk about next year.
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Fischer was a joke today. He was so bad, Wojo had Derrick in the #1 rebounding positio on the last few Creighton free throw. Luke was out by the freethrow line because he couldn't even get a rebound on a missed freethrow. Embarrassing for a 7-footer.
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Can we really comment on next season until we see what Wojo does with the open schollies? If this year is like last year, their will be dozens of graduate transfers (Lockett, Carlino) who can play next fall. Hundreds of regular transfers (last year had more than 500), Jucos (who can play next year) as well as unsigned seniors.
Potentially 1/3 of next year's roster is still to be determined. And that list could/should include starters and impact players.
Way too early to talk about next year.
I'm sure if any graduate transfer look at Carlino's experience this season, they probably won't have any interest in MU. Plus, with JUCOs and Lockett, Buzz had a lot of skins on the wall as a coach to attract that kind of talent. Wojo's first season on the job as a head coach looks pretty damn ugly from a coaching perspective. His job just got a lot tougher selling recruits on his vision, given his poor coaching record this year.
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I have to disagree. Most know that Wojo can't do much cookin' when the pantry was bare. I am hoping guys see a chance for some serious minutes next year not unlike what Carlino has been getting.
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I think the current players will improve.
I think HE will have a nice impact.
I think we will have to find a point guard and a physical, power forward type who can contribute immediately. A shooter would be nice too.
Don't we have the shooters and a PF coming in next year? Agree on the PG, but may have to move Duane there, although his game may be better suited for 2G
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Fischer was a joke today. He was so bad, Wojo had Derrick in the #1 rebounding positio on the last few Creighton free throw. Luke was out by the freethrow line because he couldn't even get a rebound on a missed freethrow. Embarrassing for a 7-footer.
I say good day to you sir, find another board to troll
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I'm sure if any graduate transfer look at Carlino's experience this season, they probably won't have any interest in MU. Plus, with JUCOs and Lockett, Buzz had a lot of skins on the wall as a coach to attract that kind of talent. Wojo's first season on the job as a head coach looks pretty damn ugly from a coaching perspective. His job just got a lot tougher selling recruits on his vision, given his poor coaching record this year.
Wojo had never coached a game and brought in Carlino, Ellenson, Heldt, and Cheatham. Recruiting should not be a worry.
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I'm sure if any graduate transfer look at Carlino's experience this season, they probably won't have any interest in MU. Plus, with JUCOs and Lockett, Buzz had a lot of skins on the wall as a coach to attract that kind of talent. Wojo's first season on the job as a head coach looks pretty damn ugly from a coaching perspective. His job just got a lot tougher selling recruits on his vision, given his poor coaching record this year.
yeah, who would want to be the star and #1 offensive option (by a mile) and get a chance to showcase their skills on national TV 30+ times in their last year in college?
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I say good day to you sir, find another board to troll
what's up with that? Do you disagree? Am I a troll because I think a center should be able t rebound?
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yeah, who would want to be the star and #1 offensive option (by a mile) and get a chance to showcase their skills on national TV 30+ times in their last year in college?
I don't know. Maybe a guy who wants to play on a winning team and make the NCAA tourney in their last season in college basketball?
Wojo had never coached a game and brought in Carlino, Ellenson, Heldt, and Cheatham. Recruiting should not be a worry.
That's part of my point - Wojo had the benefit of being Coach K's right hand man. That carried a lot of cred. Now, he's got a full year of coaching under his belt - and the results have been pretty disastrous.
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Fischer was a joke today. He was so bad, Wojo had Derrick in the #1 rebounding positio on the last few Creighton free throw. Luke was out by the freethrow line because he couldn't even get a rebound on a missed freethrow. Embarrassing for a 7-footer.
Jim McIlvaine praised that move on the radio broadcast, saying that Wojo did it to put length on the perimeter and force Creighton to adjust and not just keep bombing us over the top. As Kreklow only scored 4 in the second half after his first half barrage it seemed to work.
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Jim McIlvaine praised that move on the radio broadcast, saying that Wojo did it to put length on the perimeter and force Creighton to adjust and not just keep bombing us over the top. As Kreklow only scored 4 in the second half after his first half barrage it seemed to work.
You missed the FT part.
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Well yeah, the free throws sucked, just highlighting one small positive.
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I think Juan in WAY more athletic than Cohen. Sandy has a better outside shot, but can't see anything else about his game that makes me think he'll be better than Juan. He doesn't hustle like Juan does, he isn't as physical, he's slower off the dribble, he doesn't rebound as well, etc.
Um..... Juan is a senior - Sandy's a freshman. Sandy shows more promise and skill - to my eyes anyway - than Juan did as a freshman. Better shooter tries driving to the basket more and really isn't much skinnier than Juan was as a freshman.
Juan has played very well (at times) this year, but Sandy will be better by his junior year than Juan is this year.
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If SC3 dedicates himself during the off-season I think he will be a solid player next year,he's plenty athletic. Do you
think any of the assistant coaches will bail?
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I don't know. Maybe a guy who wants to play on a winning team and make the NCAA tourney in their last season in college basketball?
That's part of my point - Wojo had the benefit of being Coach K's right hand man. That carried a lot of cred. Now, he's got a full year of coaching under his belt - and the results have been pretty disastrous.
This is a very important point. The half life of being Coach Ks guy is short. It was enough to get the 2015 recruits but everything going forward is going to be based in performance
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This is a very important point. The half life of being Coach Ks guy is short. It was enough to get the 2015 recruits but everything going forward is going to be based in performance
That wasn't the case for Crean or Buzz. Both of them landed quality classes a few years in. Let's not forget Crean had two 15-14 years to start.
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Hank, junior Luke, sophomore Duane >>>>> Carlino, freshman Duane, sophomore Luke.
We'll be a bubble team next year. Hopefully Wojo gets a strong 2016 class and if he does so we'll be where we should be in 2 years.
Can only get better.
Bubble team? With what? We are last place and other than Duane and Fisher, who the hell is going to get us 7 or 8 more wins? The Freshmen? How has that worked out for us so far? This team is returning very little proven scoring next season. We might win a few more, but this group is not a bubble team.
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Bubble team? With what? We are last place and other than Duane and Fisher, who the hell is going to get us 7 or 8 more wins? The Freshmen? How has that worked out for us so far? This team is returning very little proven scoring next season. We might win a few more, but this group is not a bubble team.
We have 4 open schollies, 25% of next year's roster. Let's see who/if Wojo fills this with.
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Bubble team? With what? We are last place and other than Duane and Fisher, who the hell is going to get us 7 or 8 more wins? The Freshmen? How has that worked out for us so far? This team is returning very little proven scoring next season. We might win a few more, but this group is not a bubble team.
You'll learn.
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Depending on what Wojo does with the remaining 4 scholarships, MU may be .500 next year. JUCO PG, JUCO wing, Sacar....that may get to 17 wins.
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Don't we have the shooters and a PF coming in next year? Agree on the PG, but may have to move Duane there, although his game may be better suited for 2G
Henry isn't really the physical type of power forward I am talking about. Cheatham does have a reputation as a shooter, but I hear that about a lot of high school players.
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Bubble team? With what? We are last place and other than Duane and Fisher, who the hell is going to get us 7 or 8 more wins? The Freshmen? How has that worked out for us so far? This team is returning very little proven scoring next season. We might win a few more, but this group is not a bubble team.
Well, Wojo currently has 4 open scholarships for next season. If there's a Jae Crowder, Jimmy butler and a Chris Jones out there....
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This board. Jesus.
We are better off than in Creans first year. It's super frustrating that in a pg dominated game we don't have one. Also disappointing we have no bench. That said I think we have potential and talent next season. But... We got gaps to fill make no question.
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Let's not forget, predictions by experts and slobs like us are often crap. Remember, MU was going to win the Big East last year. IU was going to finish 11th this year in the Big Ten. UCLA was going to finish second this year. Florida was to be a top ten program, Michigan top 15. Butler was to be mediocre this season. So on and so forth.
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Bubble team? With what? We are last place and other than Duane and Fisher, who the hell is going to get us 7 or 8 more wins? The Freshmen? How has that worked out for us so far? This team is returning very little proven scoring next season. We might win a few more, but this group is not a bubble team.
Ellenson and Fischer will be the best 4/5 in the Big East next season. Duane will improve his consistency. As I see it, all we need is one of Cohen/JJJ/Haanif to emerge as a starter in order to really compete. Wojo will be able to find a couple scholarship caliber players to fill out the bench.
Let's not forget that this team has lost a bunch of close games this season. Some have been ugly, but for the most part the team has been competitive. I don't think we're as far away from the tournament as some appear to think.
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Ellenson and Fischer will be the best 4/5 in the Big East next season. Duane will improve his consistency. As I see it, all we need is one of Cohen/JJJ/Haanif to emerge as a starter in order to really compete. Wojo will be able to find a couple scholarship caliber players to fill out the bench.
Let's not forget that this team has lost a bunch of close games this season. Some have been ugly, but for the most part the team has been competitive. I don't think we're as far away from the tournament as some appear to think.
How can you seriously believe this? Fischer is arguably the worst 5 starting in the Big East this season. Considering Obekpa, Ochefu, Reynolds, and Delgado are all underclassmen and seriously dominated Fischer this season it's very hard to imagine Luke being anything other than middle of the pack in the Big East next season down low. Ellenson, though highly rated, is still a freshman and if anyone thinks he's going to simply lace up his shoes against physical competition he's never experienced before and be a dominant force is kidding themselves.
I think next year's team will do well if they're on the bubble come conference tournament time.
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Bubble team? With what? We are last place and other than Duane and Fisher, who the hell is going to get us 7 or 8 more wins? The Freshmen? How has that worked out for us so far? This team is returning very little proven scoring next season. We might win a few more, but this group is not a bubble team.
I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say bubble team - but I do believe that simply having anybody other than Derrick Wilson running PG for MU will greatly help the team be better. I don't expect anything from Heldt next season. Expect slight improvement from Luke. Think Henry will get about 12ppg. Think Duane can take another big step up. And also believe JJJ can take a big step up with a summer of hard work, strength training, and being able to take advantage of better floor spacing due to playing with a more talented cast.
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I wouldn't under estimate Wally's contribution next year.
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How can you seriously believe this? Fischer is arguably the worst 5 starting in the Big East this season. Considering Obekpa, Ochefu, Reynolds, and Delgado are all underclassmen and seriously dominated Fischer this season it's very hard to imagine Luke being anything other than middle of the pack in the Big East next season down low.
Fischer was also dominated by Creighton's three big stiffs and Butler's 6-7 center. Major disappointment until Luke adds some strength and some diversity to his offensive game. Still waiting for him to face up and hit a jump shot. All he's shown so far are layups and jump hooks.
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Luke is learning. Every team in the Big East has at least one big at least as talented as he is. He is getting beat up and worn out. Yes, a 10 ft jumper would be a welcome tool. So would a complementary big. Anybody who is already counting him out is dumb.
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I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say bubble team - but I do believe that simply having anybody other than Derrick Wilson running PG for MU will greatly help the team be better. I don't expect anything from Heldt next season. Expect slight improvement from Luke. Think Henry will get about 12ppg. Think Duane can take another big step up. And also believe JJJ can take a big step up with a summer of hard work, strength training, and being able to take advantage of better floor spacing due to playing with a more talented cast.
Hmmm. And all this time I thought you kinda liked Derrick. Musta had you confused with somebody else.
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Luke is learning. Every team in the Big East has at least one big at least as talented as he is. He is getting beat up and worn out. Yes, a 10 ft jumper would be a welcome tool. So would a complementary big. Anybody who is already counting him out is dumb.
Exactly. When you're the absolute only option to play big, defenses aren't going to have a very difficult time stopping you. Especially when you only have 2 shooters on the team, and 1 of them has been out for the last few games.
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I wouldn't under estimate Wally's contribution next year.
My hope is he slides into the "glue guy" role. If he can defend, and give you 6 pts/4 reb a night, I'd take that in a heartbeat.
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We have a few pieces for next year. The key to next year will be whoever else Wojo can bring in to fill open scholarships and how well the freshman play. So at this point we can guess anything we want about next year
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My hope is he slides into the "glue guy" role. If he can defend, and give you 6 pts/4 reb a night, I'd take that in a heartbeat.
You realize he played in only 9 games last year and averaged 1ppg for Minnesota last year. Restated, he was their John Dawson last season. Did he play at garbage time and did the fans yell "shoot!" every-time he touched the ball?
So now you expect a guy that could not sniff the floor last year to upgrade programs (MU is better than Minn) and go from never playing to 6ppg/4rebs? By the way, 6 and 4 is what Derrick Wilson averages and he is a starter. Sandy Cohen is a 4 and 1 guy ... you expect much more from Wally.
I never stop marveling at how guys either write things they don't understand or are delusional in there expectations.
I just hope Wally makes the rotational in anyway.
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You realize he played in only 9 games last year and averaged 1ppg for Minnesota last year. Restated, he was their John Dawson last season. Did he play at garbage time and did the fans yell "shoot!" every-time he touched the ball?
So now you expect a guy that could not sniff the floor last year to upgrade programs (MU is better than Minn) and go from never playing to 6ppg/4rebs? By the way, 6 and 4 is what Derrick Wilson averages and he is a starter. Sandy Cohen is a 4 and 1 guy ... you expect much more from Wally.
I never stop marveling at how guys either write things they don't understand or are delusional in there expectations.
I just hope Wally makes the rotational in anyway.
Sometimes players change. Sometimes a change of scenery is necessary.
McKay wasn't going to be good enough to play last season, according to Bert. He upgraded in programs (at the current time) and is doing just fine for himself.
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Luke is basically a freshman, you guys need to relax. He can make hooks shots with both hands, runs the floor well and is above average athletically. Reserve judgement until Marquette puts a lineup on the floor that keeps all 5 defenders honest. Fischer showed flashes of good footwork but doesn't seem confident yet, doesn't act quickly. I think a lot of that has to do with being doubled so quickly.
As for defense, he has experienced a lot of foul trouble and I think Wojo has emphasized not getting into foul trouble. Often times he's not going for blocked shots like he did earlier in the season. With more depth next year I expect him to be a better defender, bigger presence in the lane. With Taylor, Heldt, Ellenson and another big recruit Marquette can at least fill his void. Again, I consider him a freshman, not expecting improvement is ridiculous.
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Sometimes players change. Sometimes a change of scenery is necessary.
McKay wasn't going to be good enough to play last season, according to Bert. He upgraded in programs (at the current time) and is doing just fine for himself.
McKay was a Juco all-american. He was known to be a good/solid player coming in.
Wally had 2 years of D1 bball at Minn. In those two years he has shown he is not a high D1 bball player (and a world class high jumper). His two years at Minn were equivalent to John Dawson's 1 1/2 years at MU (or Jamail Jones). So tell me what about Wally's game suggests 6 and 4 is possible at MU but impossible at Minn? What was Pitino doing wrong that Wojo will do right?
I would love nothing more than Wally to be a 6 and 4 "glue guy." Until I hear a reason, this is nothing but unrealistic fantasy basketball board talk. It reminds me of the posters that thought Luke would be a "20 and 10" guy becuase of his first game against Alabama A&M.
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Luke is basically a freshman, you guys need to relax. He can make hooks shots with both hands, runs the floor well and is above average athletically. Reserve judgement until Marquette puts a lineup on the floor that keeps all 5 defenders honest. Fischer showed flashes of good footwork but doesn't seem confident yet, doesn't act quickly. I think a lot of that has to do with being doubled so quickly.
As for defense, he has experienced a lot of foul trouble and I think Wojo has emphasized not getting into foul trouble. Often times he's not going for blocked shots like he did earlier in the season. With more depth next year I expect him to be a better defender, bigger presence in the lane. With Taylor, Heldt, Ellenson and another big recruit Marquette can at least fill his void. Again, I consider him a freshman, not expecting improvement is ridiculous.
Exactly correct.
I see Fischer giving help to other players who are getting beat on dribble drives, which is leading to easy baskets from other players off the pass. This happened several times against Creighton. Yet Luke gets criticized because the guy he is guarding is having a good game. Defense is played by the team not an individual
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McKay was a Juco all-american. He was known to be a good/solid player coming in.
Wally had 2 years of D1 bball at Minn. In those two years he has shown he is not a high D1 bball player (and a world class high jumper). His two years at Minn were equivalent to John Dawson's 1 1/2 years at MU (or Jamail Jones). So tell me what about Wally's game suggests 6 and 4 is possible at MU but impossible at Minn? What was Pitino doing wrong that Wojo will do right?
I would love nothing more than Wally to be a 6 and 4 "glue guy." Until I hear a reason, this is nothing but unrealistic fantasy basketball board talk. It reminds me of the posters that thought Luke would be a "20 and 10" guy becuase of his first game against Alabama A&M.
Wally originally committed to Tubby Smith. There was a coaching change, and sometimes coaches look for different things in players. What Tubby may have seen as a contributor, Pittino may see as useless.
Wally was also injured his freshman season.
Not predicting 6 and for from him, not predicting 1 and 1 for him, not predicting 15 and 10 for him. He'll contribute. Not sure in what way, but I am sure he'll bring a lot of energy and effort.
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You realize he played in only 9 games last year and averaged 1ppg for Minnesota last year. Restated, he was their John Dawson last season. Did he play at garbage time and did the fans yell "shoot!" every-time he touched the ball?
So now you expect a guy that could not sniff the floor last year to upgrade programs (MU is better than Minn) and go from never playing to 6ppg/4rebs? By the way, 6 and 4 is what Derrick Wilson averages and he is a starter. Sandy Cohen is a 4 and 1 guy ... you expect much more from Wally.
I never stop marveling at how guys either write things they don't understand or are delusional in there expectations.
I don't understand anything, AND I'm delusional? You sound like Ners.
You do realize he was hurt as a freshman, and had a coaching change as a sophomore? You saw what the shoulder injury did to Juan's development, right? Ever think a redshirt year might help his game?
You bring up Derrick and Sandy, but they are different players. Wally is farther along physically than Sandy, which is why I think he'd be a better rebounder. And, the complexion of this year's team and next year's team will be different.
I said I'd be thrilled with those numbers. Meaning, that would be the high end of his production. Juan averaged 3/3 as a junior. Wally should be able to meet that, and he's a better shooter. But hey, I'm just a delusional idiot.
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Hmmm. And all this time I thought you kinda liked Derrick. Musta had you confused with somebody else.
2015-16 is Ners' year for sure. If we are better on the court, he gets to say it was all Derrick's fault that we were so bad the last 2 seasons and gets to say how right he was. If we are the same or worse, he gets to continue to berate Wojo. Everything coming up Ners
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MU should add about 5 wins since Juan will have graduated.
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2015-16 is Ners' year for sure. If we are better on the court, he gets to say it was all Derrick's fault that we were so bad the last 2 seasons and gets to say how right he was. If we are the same or worse, he gets to continue to berate Wojo. Everything coming up Ners
Sorry Jes - The numbers don't lie. Team record. Offensive efficiency of team under Derrick's direction last year, and now this year. It's impossible to be a successful basketball team with a player of Derrick's ability running your PG position for 30-40 minutes per game.
I believe we will be better next year just as much of a function of Wojo being forced to find an alternative solution at PG, as much as anything else. But, we should be better, period based on losing Derrick as well as adding a 5-star in Henry, and Duane, Cohen, Luke, JJJ being a year older/more experienced.
I will be very concerned about Wojo as a coach if he cannot get next year's team to at least a .500 record in conference play, and in bubble contention given the talent on the roster.
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Sorry Jes - The numbers don't lie. Team record. Offensive efficiency of team under Derrick's direction last year, and now this year. It's impossible to be a successful basketball team with a player of Derrick's ability running your PG position for 30-40 minutes per game.
I believe we will be better next year just as much of a function of Wojo being forced to find an alternative solution at PG, as much as anything else. But, we should be better, period based on losing Derrick as well as adding a 5-star in Henry, and Duane, Cohen, Luke, JJJ being a year older/more experienced.
I will be very concerned about Wojo as a coach if he cannot get next year's team to at least a .500 record in conference play, and in bubble contention given the talent on the roster.
Who is our PG next year?
Still need a stud PG to win consistently at the college level.
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Who is our PG next year?
Still need a stud PG to win consistently at the college level.
Yep.
We didn't have one last year...we don't have one this year...I don't think we have one for next year.
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Yep.
We didn't have one last year...we don't have one this year...I don't think we have one for next year.
Double Yup....It's been my complaint the last few years....you win with a PG. Where I continue to see a lack of logic in Ners postings is that clearly he sees this from the DW angle, and he's right. The logic falls apart in the replacement of DW. Who is it? There is no magical guy sitting on the bench right now that is appreciably better, or at least the last two head coaches and their staffs that see these guys daily haven't come to that realization.
So it is back to the main thrust....who is our stud PG?
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I don't think we have one. I think we will go into next year with Duane and some sort of transfer playing the point roles and hoping one of them emerges as a viable option. It might be reminiscent of the Buycks / Cadougan year.
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Who is our PG next year?
Still need a stud PG to win consistently at the college level.
Well, we did win 75 games over three seasons -- not to mention going S16-S16-E8 -- with a PG who averaged 6 points, 4 assists and 2+ TOs, while shooting 40% from the floor, 20% on treys and sub-70% on FTs.
I happen to appreciate Junior's contribution more than most, but even I would never describe Junior as a "stud PG."
Having said that, I will agree that we either need considerably better PG play or a serviceable PG who is surrounded by superior talent.
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Yep.
We didn't have one last year...we don't have one this year...I don't think we have one for next year.
But do we know for sure? How about giving Duane a run at it for the last several games to see how he does? Then we would know, wouldn't we?
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Well, we did win 75 games over three seasons -- not to mention going S16-S16-E8 -- with a PG who averaged 6 points, 4 assists and 2+ TOs, while shooting 40% from the floor, 20% on treys and sub-70% on FTs.
I happen to appreciate Junior's contribution more than most, but even I would never describe Junior as a "stud PG."
Having said that, I will agree that we either need considerably better PG play or a serviceable PG who is surrounded by superior talent.
I believe I said earlier that Junior was a good PG, he just wasn't top 50 good as per his recruiting rating (which equated to top 10 for PGs). I'd take another Junior, but I think we can do better than Junior. If you have enough pieces around a good PG, we'll be fine. Do we have one of those?
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I believe I said earlier that Junior was a good PG, he just wasn't top 50 good as per his recruiting rating (which equated to top 10 for PGs). I'd take another Junior, but I think we can do better than Junior. If you have enough pieces around a good PG, we'll be fine. Do we have one of those?
Well, here is what you said less than an hour ago: "Still need a stud PG to win consistently at the college level."
So do you need a stud PG to win consistently at the college level? Or do you need a good PG with enough pieces around him -- which is what we had in winning 75 games, including 7 NCAA tournament games?
I happen to think the latter is true, and apparently so do you ... unless you're in the mood to say a stud PG is essential.
Either way, we appear to be lacking as we look ahead at next season -- just as we are lacking this season and were lacking last season.
So basically we agree. Just wanted to keep you honest so you don't come back on here and insist, "Like I said, you MUST have a stud PG."
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Definition of Stud and Consistently is what it comes down to. Right now, I don't see a stud PG on this team and I don't even see a really good one.
IMO, to be a consistent winner, you need a stud PG....you can define both consistent and stud as you wish. Your definitions of both may be different than mine.
At the end of the day, regardless of definitions we use, I don't think we have the PG we need to win consistently. If we do, I hope the young man emerges either on this team or in a future recruiting class.
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Well, we did win 75 games over three seasons -- not to mention going S16-S16-E8 -- with a PG who averaged 6 points, 4 assists and 2+ TOs, while shooting 40% from the floor, 20% on treys and sub-70% on FTs.
I happen to appreciate Junior's contribution more than most, but even I would never describe Junior as a "stud PG."
Having said that, I will agree that we either need considerably better PG play or a serviceable PG who is surrounded by superior talent.
Cadougan won more NCAA tournament games (7) than any point guard in Marquette history. Diener couldn't even get us to the tournament as a junior and senior (without a certain pretty fair 2 guard). James won 1 NCAA tournament game at MU. Stud PLAYERS are what's needed - right now we have zero.
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Cadougan won more NCAA tournament games (7) than any point guard in Marquette history. Diener couldn't even get us to the tournament as a junior and senior (without a certain pretty fair 2 guard). James won 1 NCAA tournament game at MU. Stud PLAYERS are what's needed - right now we have zero.
Duane's and Car3no are studs.
Luke and Hank will be.
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Duane's and Car3no are studs.
Luke and Hank will be.
Thanks for quoting him.
Who's fault is it that we have zero stud players....the previous GM? That's what I thought.
Travis Diener was hurt those years. As you all keep reminding, without Travis we never would have beaten Holy Cross. ::)
Dominic James was hurt his senior year, yet we still won the first NCAA game and likely more if he had not been hurt.
Without Tony Miller, there is no run in 1994.
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Well, here is what you said less than an hour ago: "Still need a stud PG to win consistently at the college level."
So do you need a stud PG to win consistently at the college level? Or do you need a good PG with enough pieces around him -- which is what we had in winning 75 games, including 7 NCAA tournament games?
I happen to think the latter is true, and apparently so do you ... unless you're in the mood to say a stud PG is essential.
Either way, we appear to be lacking as we look ahead at next season -- just as we are lacking this season and were lacking last season.
So basically we agree. Just wanted to keep you honest so you don't come back on here and insist, "Like I said, you MUST have a stud PG."
Thanks for quoting him. Virginia is #2 in the country. Their PG (in 33 mpg) averages 5.9 PPG, 2.3 RPG, 4.4 APG and shoots 33.6% from the field. Stud or not a stud? In Chico's world, a stud. Not in mine.
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Wojo had never coached a game and brought in Carlino, Ellenson, Heldt, and Cheatham. Recruiting should not be a worry.
Sure it should it is much easier to recruit, when you have not lost a game and you can sell all of the pipe dreams you want. He has to prove he can still recruit after reality has set in.
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Travis Diener was hurt those years.
Dominic James was hurt his senior year, yet we still won the first NCAA game and likely more if he had not been hurt.
Without Tony Miller, there is no run in 1994.
Travis played all 31 games in the 2003-04 season and averaged 34 MPG - wasn't hurt. He did miss 8 games in 04-05. We weren't even on the bubble those two years.
Bottom line: Travis last 2 + Dom + Tony = 9 years and 3 NCAA wins
Junior's 3 = 7 NCAA wins.
Travis, Dom and Tony were "studs". Junior wasn't. Neither is the kid at Virginia. IMO, neither is Travon Jackson or Koenig. Many others on "consistent winners", no doubt.
Conclusion: You CAN win consistently without a stud point guard. You're provably, factually wrong. What new?
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I think Juan in WAY more athletic than Cohen. Sandy has a better outside shot, but can't see anything else about his game that makes me think he'll be better than Juan. He doesn't hustle like Juan does, he isn't as physical, he's slower off the dribble, he doesn't rebound as well, etc.
I think Cohen is more athletic than Juan. Juan as a senior is much stronger.
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Thanks for quoting him. Virginia is #2 in the country. Their PG (in 33 mpg) averages 5.9 PPG, 2.3 RPG, 4.4 APG and shoots 33.6% from the field. Stud or not a stud? In Chico's world, a stud. Not in mine.
Agree Lenny. have not seen the guy play, but those numbers are very close to Derricks. Junior, IMO was not a stud PG, but he was a good one (except when Siva was harassing him), and we did pretty good with him. He was a better shot, better FT shooter, better passer and penetrator than Derrick.
Chico likely would not call Virginia's PG a stud, but a good one. He likely means that consistent winning and playing at or near a championship level requires a stud PG. IMO, our last stud PG was Diener.
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Agree Lenny. have not seen the guy play, but those numbers are very close to Derricks. Junior, IMO was not a stud PG, but he was a good one (except when Siva was harassing him), and we did pretty good with him. He was a better shot, better FT shooter, better passer and penetrator than Derrick.
Chico likely would not call Virginia's PG a stud, but a good one. He likely means that consistent winning and playing at or near a championship level requires a stud PG. IMO, our last stud PG was Diener.
Can always always always find exceptions to the rule. Acknowledged. Stipulated. Just as there are QB's that "manage" a game and can win a Super Bowl without being great. Again, will stipulate. Those exceptions exist, always will. For the record, it's one of the reasons I don't think UVa goes to the Final Four despite their lofty ranking (over ranked IMO). We'll see...all about matchups in the tournament, who's hot, one bad day...crap shoot.
Junior could keep a team honest with this shot, both on the outside and as a penetrator. He could actually make 50% of his free throws as well (career 68%).
And yes, I mean year in and year out consistency, you need a stud PG (define as you will)....there will be exceptions to the rule. I can rattle off a ton of ELITE programs that did not perform well in the last decade because they did not have a PG up to snuff. North Carolina. UCLA. Etc. Sometimes enough talent around an average PG is enough, but that is the exception to the rule in my opinion.
Disagree with you, DJ was a stud PG as was Diener.
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Definition of Stud and Consistently is what it comes down to. Right now, I don't see a stud PG on this team and I don't even see a really good one.
IMO, to be a consistent winner, you need a stud PG....you can define both consistent and stud as you wish. Your definitions of both may be different than mine.
At the end of the day, regardless of definitions we use, I don't think we have the PG we need to win consistently. If we do, I hope the young man emerges either on this team or in a future recruiting class.
Now we're arguing about semantics, which often is what it comes down to with you when you are proven wrong (or at least wishy-washy).
5 straight NCAA berths under Buzz included one with Buycks and three with Junior. Those three with Junior included 7 postseason wins. I would call that consistent. Most programs would like such consistency.
I liked Junior, but he definitely was NOT a stud. If you want to expand the definition of stud to include Junior, I worry about your command of the English language, knowledge of basketball or both.
I'd love to have a stud PG. I'd love to have such good talent that we could again win consistently with a Junior-caliber PG.
IMHO -- and that is all any of us have here, is opinions, even though some try to state things as facts -- Junior is the "floor." In other words, if a team has legitimate aspirations of excellence, a Junior-caliber PG is pretty much as low as a team can go.
Derrick, of course, is a couple pegs down. I'm hoping Duane can emerge or somebody else shows up on campus who can lead a team to consistent goodness.
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When talking of opinions, semantics will be part of it. Just in this very thread, I think Dominic James was a STUD PG, someone else doesn't think so. They are opinions....so who is right or wrong?
If DJ isn't a stud, we would still take him...he would qualify as a STUD in my book, but doesn't for someone else. So yes, semantics and opinions matter because we don't always agree on them....yes?
Feel free to disagree MU82, your right.
I've stipulated you can win at times without a stud PG. In today's college basketball world, however, I think consistently you need one to be successful. Sure, we won with Junior at PG....whether he was a stud or not is up for debate. In my mind, no. In your mind, no. He was certainly good enough considering the other talent, but there are plenty of examples of teams with multiple McDonald's All Americans on them that couldn't make it to the NCAA tournament or were vastly underperforming because they did not have solid play at PG spot. Another way to put it, a stud PG overcomes talent elsewhere more than talent elsewhere overcomes a mediocre point guard. At the very least, they need to be good...which Cadougan was.
In my view, we don't even have a good PG and our former GM didn't seem to care about the position as much as he should have IMO. That doesn't mean he didn't try, going after Gabe York, etc..
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Considering his background I feel very comfortable that Wojo values stud PG play, the biggest problem is landing them like his former boss often does.
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Fisher is not above average. Gets pushed around way to easily down low and struggles to score when his right handed hook shot gets stopped by stronger players down low that push him to far from the basket. Average at best but I expect him to be above average his senior year which is two years out. 4 open scholarships for next year at this stage of the season is a problem.
Reading this reminded me of Jim McIlvaine early in his MU career. In his first 3 seasons, he was inconsistent offensively, got pushed around a lot and pulled down surprisingly few rebounds for a 7-1 center:
Fr: 19.3 mpg, 8.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.3 bpg
So: 24.0 mpg, 10.3 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 3.0 bpg
Jr: 19.0 mpg, 11.0 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 2.8 bpg
The blocks were always there — but everything else came together his senior year:
Sr: 28.7 mpg, 13.6 ppt, 8.3 rpg, 4.3 bpg
A lot of it came down to building strength and confidence. He put on something like 20-30 pounds of muscle and attended Pete Newell's big man's camp, learning new moves and becoming more of a presence on the block.
For comparison, here are Luke's stats so far:
Fr: 10 mpg, 2.8 ppg, 2.1 rpg, 0.8 bpg
So: 28.3 mpg, 10.1 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 2.1 bpg
After a forgettable freshman year, he's performed about on par with Big Mac this season (aside from blocks, where Mac's 7-1 frame and supernatural timing made him one of the all-time greats). I've seen Luke facing two big challenges: 1) establishing and keeping position down low, especially against bigger defenders; and 2) defending without fouling.
The first should improve with experience and strength. With a smooth shot, good footwork and a variety of moves around the rim, I actually think Luke is more advanced on offense than Mcilwaine at this stage. A little more muscle should help him with rebounding, as well. The second he's going to have to learn. He won't become a legendary shot blocker, but he's already shown he can impact a game.
So then the question is, how quickly can Luke improve? We'll have to wait and see.
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Good analysis Marcus. You could also argue that Luke is really finishing his "freshman" year when compared to Mac since he didn't get to play in competition from the time he left I4 until Dec of this year.
From an offensive standpoint this team doesn't help Luke out much. At any given time you have only two 3-pt threats to stretch on the court with him (only one now that Carlino is down). You have no one who can drive and dish effectively as Tony Miller or Junior did. You have no offensive threat playing the 4 who could draw attention and then pass or occupy another rebounder (I'd almost rather have Key as a freshman than Juan as a Senior). I'm more worried about Luke's defense but that could be fatigue and his offensive frustration hurting his defense.
While I don't expect him to duplicate his ASU stats it does show what Luke could do if he wasn't the focus of the other teams defense.
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Sure, we won with Junior at PG....whether he was a stud or not is up for debate.
OK, Chicos. You want to make that up for debate, that is your right.
I'm sure Junior himself and his immediate family might say he was a stud PG for us. You are free to agree with them.
Otherwise, I've yet to hear even Junior's biggest supporters here call him a "stud PG."
I'll sign off on this now. You are free to have the last word if you want.
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Considering his background I feel very comfortable that Wojo values stud PG play, the biggest problem is landing them like his former boss often does.
I'd be happy to get those that our former former coach got for us or is currently getting in his new gig.
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OK, Chicos. You want to make that up for debate, that is your right.
I'm sure Junior himself and his immediate family might say he was a stud PG for us. You are free to agree with them.
Otherwise, I've yet to hear even Junior's biggest supporters here call him a "stud PG."
I'll sign off on this now. You are free to have the last word if you want.
Of course Junior was not a "stud" point guard. Neither is the kid at Virginia or any number of others who have consistently won as PGs without being "studs". But it doesn't fit "Chico's Law", so he'll make that obvious fact a matter of opinion. LOL.
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Can always always always find exceptions to the rule. Acknowledged. Stipulated. Just as there are QB's that "manage" a game and can win a Super Bowl without being great. Again, will stipulate. Those exceptions exist, always will. For the record, it's one of the reasons I don't think UVa goes to the Final Four despite their lofty ranking (over ranked IMO). We'll see...all about matchups in the tournament, who's hot, one bad day...crap shoot.
Junior could keep a team honest with this shot, both on the outside and as a penetrator. He could actually make 50% of his free throws as well (career 68%).
And yes, I mean year in and year out consistency, you need a stud PG (define as you will)....there will be exceptions to the rule. I can rattle off a ton of ELITE programs that did not perform well in the last decade because they did not have a PG up to snuff. North Carolina. UCLA. Etc. Sometimes enough talent around an average PG is enough, but that is the exception to the rule in my opinion.
Disagree with you, DJ was a stud PG as was Diener.
I forgot about Dominic. Yes, he was a stud, so we do agree on that. IMO, Diener was the better of the two, simply by looking at his improvement and shooting. Dom peaked his Frosh-Soph years, but was a stud.
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Travis played all 31 games in the 2003-04 season and averaged 34 MPG - wasn't hurt. He did miss 8 games in 04-05. We weren't even on the bubble those two years.
Bottom line: Travis last 2 + Dom + Tony = 9 years and 3 NCAA wins
Junior's 3 = 7 NCAA wins.
Travis, Dom and Tony were "studs". Junior wasn't. Neither is the kid at Virginia. IMO, neither is Travon Jackson or Koenig. Many others on "consistent winners", no doubt.
Conclusion: You CAN win consistently without a stud point guard. You're provably, factually wrong. What new?
I would agree, Lenny that you can win consistently without a stud PG, but you just proved above that the PG needs to be pretty good to win consistently by your examples. Dom and Travis were studs and Tony was damn good, with Junior as pretty good, just below Tony, IMO.
But there is no comparison between those 4 and Derrick. Not a slam against Derrick--simply a statement of talent.
Prediction: Now somebody from the Derrick slurp society will come up with the theory that Junior was good because Derrick was playing behind him and pushing him. Book it.