One of the more disappointing aspects of this season

[hdog1017]

MU should add about 5 wins since Juan will have graduated.   

[NersEllenson]

2015-16 is Ners' year for sure. If we are better on the court, he gets to say it was all Derrick's fault that we were so bad the last 2 seasons and gets to say how right he was. If we are the same or worse, he gets to continue to berate Wojo. Everything coming up Ners

Sorry Jes - The numbers don't lie.  Team record.  Offensive efficiency of team under Derrick's direction last year, and now this year.  It's impossible to be a successful basketball team with a player of Derrick's ability running your PG position for 30-40 minutes per game.

I believe we will be better next year just as much of a function of Wojo being forced to find an alternative solution at PG, as much as anything else.  But, we should be better, period based on losing Derrick as well as adding a 5-star in Henry, and Duane, Cohen, Luke, JJJ being a year older/more experienced.

I will be very concerned about Wojo as a coach if he cannot get next year's team to at least a .500 record in conference play, and in bubble contention given the talent on the roster.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Sorry Jes - The numbers don't lie.  Team record.  Offensive efficiency of team under Derrick's direction last year, and now this year.  It's impossible to be a successful basketball team with a player of Derrick's ability running your PG position for 30-40 minutes per game.

I believe we will be better next year just as much of a function of Wojo being forced to find an alternative solution at PG, as much as anything else.  But, we should be better, period based on losing Derrick as well as adding a 5-star in Henry, and Duane, Cohen, Luke, JJJ being a year older/more experienced.

I will be very concerned about Wojo as a coach if he cannot get next year's team to at least a .500 record in conference play, and in bubble contention given the talent on the roster.

Who is our PG next year?

Still need a stud PG to win consistently at the college level.

[GGGG]

Who is our PG next year?

Still need a stud PG to win consistently at the college level.

Yep.

We didn't have one last year...we don't have one this year...I don't think we have one for next year. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yep.

We didn't have one last year...we don't have one this year...I don't think we have one for next year. 

Double Yup....It's been my complaint the last few years....you win with a PG.  Where I continue to see a lack of logic in Ners postings is that clearly he sees this from the DW angle, and he's right.  The logic falls apart in the replacement of DW.  Who is it?  There is no magical guy sitting on the bench right now that is appreciably better, or at least the last two head coaches and their staffs that see these guys daily haven't come to that realization.

So it is back to the main thrust....who is our stud PG?   

[GGGG]

I don't think we have one.  I think we will go into next year with Duane and some sort of transfer playing the point roles and hoping one of them emerges as a viable option.  It might be reminiscent of the Buycks / Cadougan year.

[MU82]

Who is our PG next year?

Still need a stud PG to win consistently at the college level.

Well, we did win 75 games over three seasons -- not to mention going S16-S16-E8 -- with a PG who averaged 6 points, 4 assists and 2+ TOs, while shooting 40% from the floor, 20% on treys and sub-70% on FTs.

I happen to appreciate Junior's contribution more than most, but even I would never describe Junior as a "stud PG."

Having said that, I will agree that we either need considerably better PG play or a serviceable PG who is surrounded by superior talent.

[willie warrior]

Yep.

We didn't have one last year...we don't have one this year...I don't think we have one for next year. 

But do we know for sure? How about giving Duane a run at it for the last several games to see how he does? Then we would know, wouldn't we?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Well, we did win 75 games over three seasons -- not to mention going S16-S16-E8 -- with a PG who averaged 6 points, 4 assists and 2+ TOs, while shooting 40% from the floor, 20% on treys and sub-70% on FTs.

I happen to appreciate Junior's contribution more than most, but even I would never describe Junior as a "stud PG."

Having said that, I will agree that we either need considerably better PG play or a serviceable PG who is surrounded by superior talent.

I believe I said earlier that Junior was a good PG, he just wasn't top 50 good as per his recruiting rating (which equated to top 10 for PGs).   I'd take another Junior, but I think we can do better than Junior.  If you have enough pieces around a good PG, we'll be fine.  Do we have one of those?

[MU82]

I believe I said earlier that Junior was a good PG, he just wasn't top 50 good as per his recruiting rating (which equated to top 10 for PGs).   I'd take another Junior, but I think we can do better than Junior.  If you have enough pieces around a good PG, we'll be fine.  Do we have one of those?

Well, here is what you said less than an hour ago: "Still need a stud PG to win consistently at the college level."

So do you need a stud PG to win consistently at the college level? Or do you need a good PG with enough pieces around him -- which is what we had in winning 75 games, including 7 NCAA tournament games?

I happen to think the latter is true, and apparently so do you ... unless you're in the mood to say a stud PG is essential.

Either way, we appear to be lacking as we look ahead at next season -- just as we are lacking this season and were lacking last season.

So basically we agree. Just wanted to keep you honest so you don't come back on here and insist, "Like I said, you MUST have a stud PG."

[ChicosBailBonds]

Definition of Stud and Consistently is what it comes down to.  Right now, I don't see a stud PG on this team and I don't even see a really good one.

IMO, to be a consistent winner, you need a stud PG....you can define both consistent and stud as you wish.  Your definitions of both may be different than mine.

At the end of the day, regardless of definitions we use, I don't think we have the PG we need to win consistently.  If we do, I hope the young man emerges either on this team or in a future recruiting class.

[Lennys Tap]

Well, we did win 75 games over three seasons -- not to mention going S16-S16-E8 -- with a PG who averaged 6 points, 4 assists and 2+ TOs, while shooting 40% from the floor, 20% on treys and sub-70% on FTs.

I happen to appreciate Junior's contribution more than most, but even I would never describe Junior as a "stud PG."

Having said that, I will agree that we either need considerably better PG play or a serviceable PG who is surrounded by superior talent.

Cadougan won more NCAA tournament games (7) than any point guard in Marquette history. Diener couldn't even get us to the tournament as a junior and senior (without a certain pretty fair 2 guard). James won 1 NCAA tournament game at MU. Stud PLAYERS are what's needed - right now we have zero.

[wadesworld]

Cadougan won more NCAA tournament games (7) than any point guard in Marquette history. Diener couldn't even get us to the tournament as a junior and senior (without a certain pretty fair 2 guard). James won 1 NCAA tournament game at MU. Stud PLAYERS are what's needed - right now we have zero.

Duane's and Car3no are studs.

Luke and Hank will be.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Duane's and Car3no are studs.

Luke and Hank will be.

Thanks for quoting him.

Who's fault is it that we have zero stud players....the previous GM?  That's what I thought.

Travis Diener was hurt those years.  As you all keep reminding, without Travis we never would have beaten Holy Cross.    

Dominic James was hurt his senior year, yet we still won the first NCAA game and likely more if he had not been hurt.

Without Tony Miller, there is no run in 1994.   

[Lennys Tap]

Well, here is what you said less than an hour ago: "Still need a stud PG to win consistently at the college level."

So do you need a stud PG to win consistently at the college level? Or do you need a good PG with enough pieces around him -- which is what we had in winning 75 games, including 7 NCAA tournament games?

I happen to think the latter is true, and apparently so do you ... unless you're in the mood to say a stud PG is essential.

Either way, we appear to be lacking as we look ahead at next season -- just as we are lacking this season and were lacking last season.

So basically we agree. Just wanted to keep you honest so you don't come back on here and insist, "Like I said, you MUST have a stud PG."

Thanks for quoting him. Virginia is #2 in the country. Their PG (in 33 mpg) averages 5.9 PPG, 2.3 RPG, 4.4 APG and shoots 33.6% from the field. Stud or not a stud? In Chico's world, a stud. Not in mine.

[bilsu]

Wojo had never coached a game and brought in Carlino, Ellenson, Heldt, and Cheatham. Recruiting should not be a worry.

Sure it should it is much easier to recruit, when you have not lost a game and you can sell all of the pipe dreams you want. He has to prove he can still recruit after reality has set in.

[Lennys Tap]

Travis Diener was hurt those years.  

Dominic James was hurt his senior year, yet we still won the first NCAA game and likely more if he had not been hurt.

Without Tony Miller, there is no run in 1994.  

Travis played all 31 games in the 2003-04 season and averaged 34 MPG - wasn't hurt. He did miss 8 games in 04-05. We weren't even on the bubble those two years.

Bottom line: Travis last 2 + Dom + Tony = 9 years and 3 NCAA wins

Junior's 3 = 7 NCAA wins.

Travis, Dom and Tony were "studs". Junior wasn't. Neither is the kid at Virginia. IMO, neither is Travon Jackson or Koenig. Many others on "consistent winners", no doubt.

Conclusion: You CAN win consistently without a stud point guard. You're provably, factually wrong. What new?

[bilsu]

I think Juan in WAY more athletic than Cohen.  Sandy has a better outside shot, but can't see anything else about his game that makes me think he'll be better than Juan.  He doesn't hustle like Juan does, he isn't as physical, he's slower off the dribble, he doesn't rebound as well, etc.

I think Cohen is more athletic than Juan. Juan as a senior is much stronger.

[willie warrior]

Thanks for quoting him. Virginia is #2 in the country. Their PG (in 33 mpg) averages 5.9 PPG, 2.3 RPG, 4.4 APG and shoots 33.6% from the field. Stud or not a stud? In Chico's world, a stud. Not in mine.

Agree Lenny. have not seen the guy play, but those numbers are very close to Derricks. Junior, IMO was not a stud PG, but he was a good one (except when Siva was harassing him), and we did pretty good with him. He was a better shot, better FT shooter, better passer and penetrator than Derrick.
Chico likely would not call Virginia's PG a stud, but a good one. He likely means that consistent winning and playing at or near a championship level requires a stud PG. IMO, our last stud PG was Diener.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Agree Lenny. have not seen the guy play, but those numbers are very close to Derricks. Junior, IMO was not a stud PG, but he was a good one (except when Siva was harassing him), and we did pretty good with him. He was a better shot, better FT shooter, better passer and penetrator than Derrick.
Chico likely would not call Virginia's PG a stud, but a good one. He likely means that consistent winning and playing at or near a championship level requires a stud PG. IMO, our last stud PG was Diener.

Can always always always find exceptions to the rule.  Acknowledged.  Stipulated.  Just as there are QB's that "manage" a game and can win a Super Bowl without being great.  Again, will stipulate.  Those exceptions exist, always will.  For the record, it's one of the reasons I don't think UVa goes to the Final Four despite their lofty ranking (over ranked IMO).  We'll see...all about matchups in the tournament, who's hot, one bad day...crap shoot. 

Junior could keep a team honest with this shot, both on the outside and as a penetrator.  He could actually make 50% of his free throws as well (career 68%).

And yes, I mean year in and year out consistency, you need a stud PG (define as you will)....there will be exceptions to the rule.  I can rattle off a ton of ELITE programs that did not perform well in the last decade because they did not have a PG up to snuff.  North Carolina.  UCLA.  Etc.  Sometimes enough talent around an average PG is enough, but that is the exception to the rule in my opinion.

Disagree with you, DJ was a stud PG as was Diener.

[MU82]

Definition of Stud and Consistently is what it comes down to.  Right now, I don't see a stud PG on this team and I don't even see a really good one.

IMO, to be a consistent winner, you need a stud PG....you can define both consistent and stud as you wish.  Your definitions of both may be different than mine.

At the end of the day, regardless of definitions we use, I don't think we have the PG we need to win consistently.  If we do, I hope the young man emerges either on this team or in a future recruiting class.

Now we're arguing about semantics, which often is what it comes down to with you when you are proven wrong (or at least wishy-washy).

5 straight NCAA berths under Buzz included one with Buycks and three with Junior. Those three with Junior included 7 postseason wins. I would call that consistent. Most programs would like such consistency.

I liked Junior, but he definitely was NOT a stud. If you want to expand the definition of stud to include Junior, I worry about your command of the English language, knowledge of basketball or both.

I'd love to have a stud PG. I'd love to have such good talent that we could again win consistently with a Junior-caliber PG.

IMHO -- and that is all any of us have here, is opinions, even though some try to state things as facts -- Junior is the "floor." In other words, if a team has legitimate aspirations of excellence, a Junior-caliber PG is pretty much as low as a team can go.

Derrick, of course, is a couple pegs down. I'm hoping Duane can emerge or somebody else shows up on campus who can lead a team to consistent goodness.

[ChicosBailBonds]

When talking of opinions, semantics will be part of it.  Just in this very thread, I think Dominic James was a STUD PG, someone else doesn't think so.  They are opinions....so who is right or wrong?

If DJ isn't a stud, we would still take him...he would qualify as a STUD in my book, but doesn't for someone else.  So yes, semantics and opinions matter because we don't always agree on them....yes?

Feel free to disagree MU82, your right.

I've stipulated you can win at times without a stud PG.  In today's college basketball world, however, I think consistently you need one to be successful.  Sure, we won with Junior at PG....whether he was a stud or not is up for debate.  In my mind, no.  In your mind, no.  He was certainly good enough considering the other talent, but there are plenty of examples of teams with multiple McDonald's All Americans on them that couldn't make it to the NCAA tournament or were vastly underperforming because they did not have solid play at PG spot.  Another way to put it, a stud PG overcomes talent elsewhere more than talent elsewhere overcomes a mediocre point guard.   At the very least, they need to be good...which Cadougan was.

In my view, we don't even have a good PG and our former GM didn't seem to care about the position as much as he should have IMO.  That doesn't mean he didn't try, going after Gabe York, etc..   

[Spotcheck Billy]

Considering his background I feel very comfortable that Wojo values stud PG play, the biggest problem is landing them like his former boss often does.

[Marcus92]

Fisher is not above average.  Gets pushed around way to easily down low and struggles to score when his right handed hook shot gets stopped by stronger players down low that push him to far from the basket.  Average at best but I expect him to be above average his senior year which is two years out.  4 open scholarships for next year at this stage of the season is a problem.

Reading this reminded me of Jim McIlvaine early in his MU career. In his first 3 seasons, he was inconsistent offensively, got pushed around a lot and pulled down surprisingly few rebounds for a 7-1 center:

Fr: 19.3 mpg, 8.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.3 bpg
So: 24.0 mpg, 10.3 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 3.0 bpg
Jr: 19.0 mpg, 11.0 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 2.8 bpg

The blocks were always there — but everything else came together his senior year:

Sr: 28.7 mpg, 13.6 ppt, 8.3 rpg, 4.3 bpg

A lot of it came down to building strength and confidence. He put on something like 20-30 pounds of muscle and attended Pete Newell's big man's camp, learning new moves and becoming more of a presence on the block.

For comparison, here are Luke's stats so far:

Fr: 10 mpg, 2.8 ppg, 2.1 rpg, 0.8 bpg
So: 28.3 mpg, 10.1 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 2.1 bpg

After a forgettable freshman year, he's performed about on par with Big Mac this season (aside from blocks, where Mac's 7-1 frame and supernatural timing made him one of the all-time greats). I've seen Luke facing two big challenges: 1) establishing and keeping position down low, especially against bigger defenders; and 2) defending without fouling.

The first should improve with experience and strength. With a smooth shot, good footwork and a variety of moves around the rim, I actually think Luke is more advanced on offense than Mcilwaine at this stage. A little more muscle should help him with rebounding, as well. The second he's going to have to learn. He won't become a legendary shot blocker, but he's already shown he can impact a game.

So then the question is, how quickly can Luke improve? We'll have to wait and see.

[NotAnAlum]

Good analysis Marcus.  You could also argue that Luke is really finishing his "freshman" year when compared to Mac since he didn't get to play in competition from the time he left I4 until Dec of this year.
From an offensive standpoint this team doesn't help Luke out much.  At any given time you have only two 3-pt threats to stretch on the court with him (only one now that Carlino is down).  You have no one who can drive and dish effectively as Tony Miller or Junior did.  You have no offensive threat playing the 4 who could draw attention and then pass or occupy another rebounder (I'd almost rather have Key as a freshman than Juan as a Senior).  I'm more worried about Luke's defense but that could be fatigue and his offensive frustration hurting his defense.
While I don't expect him to duplicate his ASU stats it does show what Luke could do if he wasn't the focus of the other teams defense.