MUScoop

Wojo:  "not pleased, no moral victories.  We should have won the game."

Wojo:  "our offense killed us"

Wojo:  "if could change anything, we had 9 assists and 18 turnovers."

Wojo"  "I'm disappointed."

Homer, "This one bothers you most than most."

Wojo:  "Based on the way JJJ practiced, he DNP.  If you don't bring it in practice, I have no confidence.  Their is a standard and if you don't bring it in practice, you don't play, even if that limits us to 7 players."

+1.

We build for the long haul.  Not one Saturday afternoon.  Letting your teammates down is unacceptable.  Get your head on straight and get ready to play at MSG.

Quote from: jsglow on January 17, 2015, 01:26:45 PM
+1.

We build for the long haul.  Not one Saturday afternoon.  Letting your teammates down is unacceptable.  Get your head on straight and get ready to play at MSG.

+1

Quote from: jsglow on January 17, 2015, 01:26:45 PM
+1.

We build for the long haul.  Not one Saturday afternoon.  Letting your teammates down is unacceptable.  Get your head on straight and get ready to play at MSG.

That was my thought. While 10 minutes may have been the difference, we aren't playing for seeding this year. Teach these lessons now so guys know what's expected of them and don't make these mistakes in the future.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 17, 2015, 01:32:06 PM
That was my thought. While 10 minutes may have been the difference, we aren't playing for seeding this year. Teach these lessons now so guys know what's expected of them and don't make these mistakes in the future.

Is there any statistical evidence whatsoever that's supports these "lessons" working effectively? JJJ doesn't have an ounce of Fire in his body at all. He's just a goofy guy out there enjoying himself. Much like Jamail jones. I don't think he's the type to all of the sudden start to bring it now that the coach benched him a full game. I think more often than not guys just look elsewhere when their practice habits don't correlate with the coaches expectations.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 17, 2015, 01:32:06 PM
That was my thought. While 10 minutes may have been the difference, we aren't playing for seeding this year. Teach these lessons now so guys know what's expected of them and don't make these mistakes in the future.

I think that's extremely unfair to Juan, Derrick and Matt.  So what's worse, JuJuan detrimentally affecting the other seven or Wojo detrimentally affecting all eight?  IMO making a statement like this goes one of two ways.  It either galvanizes the team or it erodes faith in the leadership of the team.  When your punishment of one individual also punishes the team as a whole, then it's probably not the best decision given that there was no rule violation, academic issue, or outside legal trouble.  This isn't Hoosiers we're watching.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on January 17, 2015, 01:47:05 PM
I think that's extremely unfair to Juan, Derrick and Matt.  So what's worse, JuJuan detrimentally affecting the other seven or Wojo detrimentally affecting all eight?  IMO making a statement like this goes one of two ways.  It either galvanizes the team or it erodes faith in the leadership of the team.  When your punishment of one individual also punishes the team as a whole, then it's probably not the best decision given that there was no rule violation, academic issue, or outside legal trouble.  This isn't Hoosiers we're watching.

What would you suggest Wojo do instead?

Players are smart. They don't look at Wojo and say he lost us the game by benching JjJ. They say JjJ let us down by not doing what he needed to do to get on the court.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on January 17, 2015, 01:47:05 PM
I think that's extremely unfair to Juan, Derrick and Matt.  So what's worse, JuJuan detrimentally affecting the other seven or Wojo detrimentally affecting all eight?  IMO making a statement like this goes one of two ways.  It either galvanizes the team or it erodes faith in the leadership of the team.  When your punishment of one individual also punishes the team as a whole, then it's probably not the best decision given that there was no rule violation, academic issue, or outside legal trouble.  This isn't Hoosiers we're watching.

So what is the alternative?  What lessons does it teach if you play a player who doesn't deserve playing due to poor practices?

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 17, 2015, 01:56:08 PM

So what is the alternative?  What lessons does it teach if you play a player who doesn't deserve playing due to poor practices?

Again, it depends on what this poor practice really was. If it is something more than poor practice and he literally wasn't trying then you have to sit him.

But if he was just bad, you have to give him a shot for his and the teams sake.

We still don't know close to enough of what actually happened.

I have no problems with Wojo benching a guy for bad practices. 

But can he bench a player for bad games.  If so, Juan Anderson shouldn't see the court for the rest of the year. 

Quote from: MARQ_13 on January 17, 2015, 01:46:38 PM
Is there any statistical evidence whatsoever that's supports these "lessons" working effectively? JJJ doesn't have an ounce of Fire in his body at all. He's just a goofy guy out there enjoying himself. Much like Jamail jones. I don't think he's the type to all of the sudden start to bring it now that the coach benched him a full game. I think more often than not guys just look elsewhere when their practice habits don't correlate with the coaches expectations.

The thing is, JJJ might learn a lesson from this.  The fact is, the rest of the team will and they clearly know what's expected and what actions the coach will take.  Someone must be in charge. And it should be the coach.

Quote from: hdog1017 on January 17, 2015, 02:01:36 PM
I have no problems with Wojo benching a guy for bad practices.  

But can he bench a player for bad games.  If so, Juan Anderson shouldn't see the court for the rest of the year.  

What is it with you and Juan?  He's had two "eh" games the last couple, but before that he has been Marquette's best all around player.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 17, 2015, 01:56:08 PM

So what is the alternative?  What lessons does it teach if you play a player who doesn't deserve playing due to poor practices?

Given that he's seventh in minutes played out of 8 this season and 5th in points per game here's two more viable options.

1.  Make him aware that because of his practice effort he will be the 8th man off the bench
2.  Bench him for the first half

Now if this was a 12 man roster where a coach has the flexibility it's a different situation, but given the circumstances honorably falling on your sword doesn't make much sense.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 17, 2015, 01:53:03 PM
What would you suggest Wojo do instead?

Players are smart. They don't look at Wojo and say he lost us the game by benching JjJ. They say JjJ let us down by not doing what he needed to do to get on the court.

I disagree. Without knowing all the circumstances involved in the benching, you don't know which way the players are siding on the issue. Everything I've seen says that JJJ's teammates love him. College kids aren't quick to ostracize one of their own.

Quote from: hdog1017 on January 17, 2015, 02:01:36 PM
I have no problems with Wojo benching a guy for bad practices. 

But can he bench a player for bad games.  If so, Juan Anderson shouldn't see the court for the rest of the year. 

...you want to bench the guy averaging 10.9 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 2.4 apg, 1.5 spg, and shooting .45.5% from three? On a team that struggles to score and rebound and relies on steals to create offense?

Seems like a good idea ::)

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on January 17, 2015, 02:06:38 PM
I disagree. Without knowing all the circumstances involved in the benching, you don't know which way the players are siding on the issue. Everything I've seen says that JJJ's teammates love him. College kids aren't quick to ostracize one of their own.

I think you underestimate the player coach relationship. Guys may love their teammates but they respect and admire their coaches (in most cases).

Wojo is a smart cookie. He knows what he is doing. He wouldn't bench a kid unless he deserved it.

Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on January 17, 2015, 01:58:12 PM
Again, it depends on what this poor practice really was.

We still don't know close to enough of what actually happened.

And guess what? We'll never know. What we do know is that for the 2nd consecutive year (and under two different coaches) a kid with a ton of talent has been nailed to the bench. Maybe both coaches don't care about winning. Or maybe JJJ needs an attitude adjustment. The latter seems more logical to me.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on January 17, 2015, 02:05:18 PM
Given that he's seventh in minutes played out of 8 this season and 5th in points per game here's two more viable options.

1.  Make him aware that because of his practice effort he will be the 8th man off the bench
2.  Bench him for the first half

I have a serious question for you matty.  Are you a parent?  I don't mean to demean you in any way but I can't tell you how many times some misdeed by a child resulting in appropriate punishment results in the entire family suffering for awhile.  You try not to have that happen but sometimes the lesson is so important that it supersedes other factors.

None of us know what happened.  Wojo exacted a heavy price.  He believes it was worth it.  Give him the benefit of the doubt.

Quote from: jsglow on January 17, 2015, 02:13:34 PM
I have a serious question for you matty.  Are you a parent?  I don't mean to demean you in any way but I can't tell you how many times some misdeed by a child resulting in appropriate punishment results in the entire family suffering for awhile.  You try not to have that happen but sometimes the lesson is so important that it supersedes other factors.

None of us know what happened.  Wojo exacted a heavy price.  He believes it was worth it.  Give him the benefit of the doubt.

I have four kids.  18,17, 7 and 2 and have had to discipline each one differently based on who they are as little people because not everyone is wired the same way.  Perhaps Wojo's the obtuse one without children.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on January 17, 2015, 02:05:18 PM
Given that he's seventh in minutes played out of 8 this season and 5th in points per game here's two more viable options.

1.  Make him aware that because of his practice effort he will be the 8th man off the bench
2.  Bench him for the first half

Now if this was a 12 man roster where a coach has the flexibility it's a different situation, but given the circumstances honorably falling on your sword doesn't make much sense.

Situation ethics. What a great way to teach life lessons.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on January 17, 2015, 02:16:22 PM
I have four kids.  18,17, 7 and 2 and have had to discipline each one differently based on who they are as little people because not everyone is wired the same way.  Perhaps Wojo's the obtuse one without children.

Wojo has children.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 17, 2015, 02:16:50 PM
Situation ethics. What a great way to teach life lessons.

Because applying the same standards to different situations is much more effective

Practice? Practice? Were not talking about a game but practice?

Quote from: mattyv1908 on January 17, 2015, 02:16:22 PM
I have four kids.  18,17, 7 and 2 and have had to discipline each one differently based on who they are as little people because not everyone is wired the same way.

I completely agree with that.  Different things work on different kids.  But there are some objective rules that all must follow regardless of their individuality, yes?

Any my personal sympathy.  You've got to do those 'hard teenage years' multiple times!  God bless!

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 17, 2015, 02:12:34 PM
And guess what? We'll never know. What we do know is that for the 2nd consecutive year (and under two different coaches) a kid with a ton of talent has been nailed to the bench. Maybe both coaches don't care about winning. Or maybe JJJ needs an attitude adjustment. The latter seems more logical to me.

He was nailed to the bench for a lot different reasons last year.

Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on January 17, 2015, 02:36:21 PM
He was nailed to the bench for a lot different reasons last year.

If by nailed to the bench you mean only today, but he has been playing 20 plus. Today's DNP was very perplexing.

Who is to say playing JJJ would have helped? They handily covered the spread without him.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on January 17, 2015, 02:18:36 PM
Because applying the same standards to different situations is much more effective

A coach has rules and consequences attached to them. The important SITUATION isn't how much depth a team has - it's what the offense is and the automatic consequence (known by all) that is attached to it. Start negotiating what you tell your team is non negotionable and you don't have any standards at all. The program is bigger than one game or one player.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 17, 2015, 02:44:42 PM
A coach has rules and consequences attached to them. The important SITUATION isn't how much depth a team has - it's what the offense is and the automatic consequence (known by all) that is attached to it. Start negotiating what you tell your team is non negotionable and you don't have any standards at all. The program is bigger than one game or one player.

+1

Wojo made similar comments after the game today - he talked about if you compromise your standards in this situation, then you start compromising other standards (Buzz Williams anyone?).

I'm sure with only eight players it's easy for guys to fall into a "he's got to play me" mentality.  I'm glad Wojo stuck to his standards.  This isn't about this game, or this season, but about establishing expectations within the program into the future.

Wojo is the boss.   He sets the standards.   He is holding JJJ accountable for not meeting those standards.  A message has been sent to JJJ, to all the current players, and future recruits, that you will meet those standards or you will sit.   What JJJ does now is up to him.     I coach with a guy who finished a game with 4 players on the floor (7th grade) rather than play a kid who had been a bully to the other players and confrontational with the coach one more minute than the bare minimum.    It was the right choice.    The lesson for JJJ today is that actions have consequences.    Hopefully, he learns it.  

http://marquette.scout.com/story/1503125-xavier-63-mu-59-mu-s-18-turnovers-fuel-xavier?s=415

Yeah, it is scout.   But it is the transcript of Wojo's post game interview is there.   The last few questions give Wojo's answer to everyone who questions his reasoning regarding JaJuan. 

Quote from: tower912 on January 17, 2015, 02:58:11 PM
http://marquette.scout.com/story/1503125-xavier-63-mu-59-mu-s-18-turnovers-fuel-xavier?s=415

Yeah, it is scout.   But it is the transcript of Wojo's post game interview is there.   The last few questions give Wojo's answer to everyone who questions his reasoning regarding JaJuan. 

Well Tower, all I can say is that based on that line of reasoning he'll be lucky if his tenure lasts long enough to instill the type of culture he's looking for when relating to 18-22 year old entitled college kids who have had everything handed to them because of their ability to play basketball is his primary job description.

If I were to guess what happened:

JJJ was frustrated about his playing time against Creighton - and for getting a pretty quick hook - after a few of his screw ups that game. 

JJJ sees other players on this thin team also struggle, and screw up, yet they seem to get more of a pass to play through their mistakes (Duane Wilson)...

JJJ starts to grow a little disenchanted, comes to practice, and pouts a little - either through not putting in max effort, goofing off, etc.

Wojo sees this, and says:  JJJ meet the bench.

Tough deal for both the player and the coach.  MOST players have a difficult time at the college or high school level going to their head coach and voicing their displeasure with their role, or perhaps things they see as unfair, where one guy gets to play through mistakes while another doesn't.  A player doesn't want to be a "whiner," so instead of confronting the coach, and addressing via a conversation, they resort to less mature tactics - such as goofing off in practice.  The player's way of saying I don't like how things are going right now.

You may recall last season Wainwright had to implore Todd Mayo to go to Buzz and ask/demand for more playing time.  Todd didn't want to do it - had to be coaxed by Wainwright to do so.  It's hard to question the authority figure that ultimately controls the thing you value most as a player on a basketball team - playing time.

Quote from: MARQ_13 on January 17, 2015, 01:46:38 PM
Is there any statistical evidence whatsoever that's supports these "lessons" working effectively? JJJ doesn't have an ounce of Fire in his body at all. He's just a goofy guy out there enjoying himself. Much like Jamail jones. I don't think he's the type to all of the sudden start to bring it now that the coach benched him a full game. I think more often than not guys just look elsewhere when their practice habits don't correlate with the coaches expectations.

If the lessons do not work he will not play. Concept is simple. We really do not want players who are not committed to working hard and having commitment to the team. To win you need talent, focus, hard work and being fully committed. Anything less has a negative impact on the entire team. If he looks elsewhere because he can not bring it everyday there is no loss.

Conduct yourself (whether practice, game, classroom, etc) in the manner which the coach expects/demands or suffer whatever consequences the coach deems necessary. Pretty simple. I've got zero problem with it. Can't have the inmates running the asylum.

Quote from: MARQ_13 on January 17, 2015, 01:46:38 PM
Is there any statistical evidence whatsoever that's supports these "lessons" working effectively? JJJ doesn't have an ounce of Fire in his body at all. He's just a goofy guy out there enjoying himself. Much like Jamail jones. I don't think he's the type to all of the sudden start to bring it now that the coach benched him a full game. I think more often than not guys just look elsewhere when their practice habits don't correlate with the coaches expectations.

It sounds like you believe that Wojo should lower his expectations to meet what JJJ feels like providing, rather than JJJ adjusting his effort level up to meet Wojo's expectations.  I believe that that would be a recipe for disaster.

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on January 17, 2015, 02:06:38 PM
I disagree. Without knowing all the circumstances involved in the benching, you don't know which way the players are siding on the issue. Everything I've seen says that JJJ's teammates love him. College kids aren't quick to ostracize one of their own.

It sounds like you're predicting a team mutiny against Wojo.  Personally, I don't see that happening.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on January 17, 2015, 02:18:36 PM
Because applying the same standards to different situations is much more effective

disagree.  i've worked with really tough kids in my lifetime, and the one thing i find it essential for them to understand is when they go to work, or are out on the streets, no one is going to give a crap if they have anger issues, are extremely sensitive, etc.  most kids also like being held accountable. 

so wojo isn't the kids parent, and jjj is part of a team.  a team has set rules, and when someone breaks the rules, the penalty (if clearly stated prior) absolutely needs to be enforced.  how wojo handles him and the conversation he has with him afterwards is what needs to be different per player.  some kids you can talk to...others just need to learn from natural consequences...

now if wojo didn't say a word to him all week about the way he practiced, and then just benched him for the game, and doesn't have further conversation with him...i'd say he's messing with the kid in a way that he better be sure will motivate the kid rather than wreck him.

that said, we never really know what's going on...could be a simple planned PR response for a different kind of behavior issues as well that wojo wants to keep private.

Might as well set the tone for your program expectations this year.   Need bite with your bark sometimes.

Why would anyone want Wojo to take it easy on JJJ? He has the worst offensive rating on the team by far, even worse than Derrick and Juan's were last year. He needs to work hard and learn how to play under control and if he doesn't, he shouldn't be playing much.

It's not like JJJ is an all-Big East player who shows up big every game but sometimes takes it easy in practice.

Quote from: MARQ_13 on January 17, 2015, 01:46:38 PM
Is there any statistical evidence whatsoever that's supports these "lessons" working effectively? JJJ doesn't have an ounce of Fire in his body at all. He's just a goofy guy out there enjoying himself. Much like Jamail jones. I don't think he's the type to all of the sudden start to bring it now that the coach benched him a full game. I think more often than not guys just look elsewhere when their practice habits don't correlate with the coaches expectations.

His magic is the steals. If he is doing that he can be very valuable in any given game. Let's hope he steps up hustle because as bad as the shot has been we have to have that. Looks lime I have to admit brandx was right on jjj's level of play to date.

Anyone remember in Hoop Dreams when Gates shows up late to practice and the coach benches him for a half in the IL tourney game?

This debate reminds of that situation.  If the coach holds all players to the same standards and, more importantly, sticks to these standards, then it is seen as fair and perhaps motivating to the less-skilled players, gives discipline to the higher-skilled players, and, more generally, it sets expectations, allowing the players and the rest of the coaching staff to act with a degree of certainty.

On the other hand, rigidly holding all players to the same standard may be seen by the more talented players as unfair.  These players may come to resent the coach.  After all, they already are highly-skilled, why should they practice as hard as the Rudys on the team? 

Now suppose that a key game is on the line.  Is the coach really going to have the guts to stick to the plan of punishing a player if that player is the best player on the team?  If the coach sticks to the plan of benching a great player during a key game, the coach could risk losing his job and pissing off a bunch of people, including some players on the team who would rather see a win than a manifestation of equity/fairness.  However, if the coach breaks the plan and the player is allowed to play, then the coach loses whatever benefits come from holding good players to the same standard as the inferior ones.

Tough trade-off.

Quote from: mattyv1908 on January 17, 2015, 01:47:05 PM
I think that's extremely unfair to Juan, Derrick and Matt.  So what's worse, JuJuan detrimentally affecting the other seven or Wojo detrimentally affecting all eight?  IMO making a statement like this goes one of two ways.  It either galvanizes the team or it erodes faith in the leadership of the team.  When your punishment of one individual also punishes the team as a whole, then it's probably not the best decision given that there was no rule violation, academic issue, or outside legal trouble.  This isn't Hoosiers we're watching.

Should we have an arbitrator render a decision!

Wojo is the one and only Coach for this team. He makes the decisions and the players follow them. Fans can only assume what happened that benched JJJ. I'd suggest all those people who disagree with Wojo's discipline find another team to follow  until next year so they don't have to agonize over every loss and find a scapegoat.

In the end it wasn't the failure to play JJJ. It was the player's 2nd half of play and their inability to get the ball inside to Luke and the resultant turnovers.

i'm guessing there might be a little more to this story than what we already know. There usually is. But based upon what we do already know, I have no problem -- none, nada, zero -- with Wojo benching JJJ.

And I'm sure Wojo is relieved to hear that. ::)

Quote from: bamamarquettefan on January 17, 2015, 07:54:09 PM
His magic is the steals. If he is doing that he can be very valuable in any given game. Let's hope he steps up hustle because as bad as the shot has been we have to have that. Looks lime I have to admit brandx was right on jjj's level of play to date.

I was probably just being a jerk at the time. I really did think that jjj was going to be what you thought he was. My argument was just that you based your findings on a small sample size and we really didn't know which way he was going to go..

Quote from: Eldon on January 17, 2015, 08:20:40 PM
Anyone remember in Hoop Dreams when Gates shows up late to practice and the coach benches him for a half in the IL tourney game?

This debate reminds of that situation.  If the coach holds all players to the same standards and, more importantly, sticks to these standards, then it is seen as fair and perhaps motivating to the less-skilled players, gives discipline to the higher-skilled players, and, more generally, it sets expectations, allowing the players and the rest of the coaching staff to act with a degree of certainty.

On the other hand, rigidly holding all players to the same standard may be seen by the more talented players as unfair.  These players may come to resent the coach.  After all, they already are highly-skilled, why should they practice as hard as the Rudys on the team? 

Now suppose that a key game is on the line.  Is the coach really going to have the guts to stick to the plan of punishing a player if that player is the best player on the team?  If the coach sticks to the plan of benching a great player during a key game, the coach could risk losing his job and pissing off a bunch of people, including some players on the team who would rather see a win than a manifestation of equity/fairness.  However, if the coach breaks the plan and the player is allowed to play, then the coach loses whatever benefits come from holding good players to the same standard as the inferior ones.

Tough trade-off.

Being a coach is tenuous at best at this level. Taking necessary risks like benching a talented player that is not getting it is unavoidable and necessary. Wojo knows the risk as the second guessers will blame the coach and some will question his judgment. What they don't understand is there are few options to try  and change player behavior. Benching has been proven to work but not in all cases (we had one recent example where it did not work).

Doing nothing will promise failure. Agree, the carrot can also work but that is typically with confidence issues. In this case it would likely reinforce undesirable behavior.

Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya, aina? Next cat up.

It is an old adage that you play like you practice.   How has JJJ looked when he has played lately?

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 17, 2015, 04:09:37 PM
If I were to guess what happened:

JJJ was frustrated about his playing time against Creighton - and for getting a pretty quick hook - after a few of his screw ups that game. 

JJJ sees other players on this thin team also struggle, and screw up, yet they seem to get more of a pass to play through their mistakes (Duane Wilson)...

JJJ starts to grow a little disenchanted, comes to practice, and pouts a little - either through not putting in max effort, goofing off, etc.

Did you ever think that you may have the cause and effect mixed up?  That maybe Duane gets a pass (which I think you are exaggerating anyway) because he has shown a better ability to work through his mistakes and learn from them? 

And if JJJ's reaction is to "pout" like you describe, that is exactly the wrong reaction.  They are adults.  I have told this to my college age kids all the time, I don't want to hear whining, I don't want to hear about life being unfair.  It is.  Deal with it. 

I am sure that yesterday's benching was the culmination of something that has been brewing for awhile.  I doubt his just had a bad practice, or even a week of bad practices.

Life is not fair.

You get what you deserve.

Karma is a bitch.

Wojo is being a servant leader to JJJ.

Nothing to see here.

Quote from: real chili 83 on January 18, 2015, 09:19:19 AM
Life is not fair.

You get what you deserve.

Karma is a bitch.

Wojo is being a servant leader to JJJ.

Nothing to see here.

Well, there is something to see here. A former highly rated recruit -- not to mention a guy who has made nice contributions in several games this season -- was benched despite the team only having 8 scholarship athletes.

It definitely is a story. Pretending it isn't a story doesn't make it any less a story.

The story is a coach is doing his job.

Nothing else to see here.

Quote from: real chili 83 on January 18, 2015, 09:58:06 AM
The story is a coach is doing his job.

Nothing else to see here.

Fair enough.

But if we don't go bat-$hit every time something happens, why even bother living? Ha!

Quote from: MU82 on January 18, 2015, 09:39:54 AM
Well, there is something to see here. A former highly rated recruit -- not to mention a guy who has made nice contributions in several games this season -- was benched despite the team only having 8 scholarship athletes.

It definitely is a story. Pretending it isn't a story doesn't make it any less a story.

It sucks that it happens on a team with 8 scholarship athletes, but I feel the coach has to be consistent. The players have to believe that their actions matter and they will be held accountable for them. Sure, it'd be easier to do on a team with 13 available players, but it shows a hell of a lot more conviction on a team with only 8. Don't like losing, but the mantra is "win every day", not just game day.

Quote from: MU82 on January 18, 2015, 10:19:54 AM
Fair enough.

But if we don't go bat-$hit every time something happens, why even bother living? Ha!

LOL

The life of us scoopers.

Quote from: MARQ_13 on January 17, 2015, 01:46:38 PM
Is there any statistical evidence whatsoever that's supports these "lessons" working effectively? JJJ doesn't have an ounce of Fire in his body at all. He's just a goofy guy out there enjoying himself. Much like Jamail jones. I don't think he's the type to all of the sudden start to bring it now that the coach benched him a full game. I think more often than not guys just look elsewhere when their practice habits don't correlate with the coaches expectations.

The military comes to mind.  I don't know what you mean by "work," but there goals in many organizations that stress devotion to the team, a "one for all" theory that equates group punishment as a way to ensure all are working towards group goals.  In this way, this is only partially about JJJ, and I am good with that.  The program should be more important.

Quote from: connie on January 18, 2015, 12:00:30 PM
The military comes to mind.  I don't know what you mean by "work," but there goals in many organizations that stress devotion to the team, a "one for all" theory that equates group punishment as a way to ensure all are working towards group goals.  In this way, this is only partially about JJJ, and I am good with that.  The program should be more important.

very well said.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 18, 2015, 10:39:19 AM
It sucks that it happens on a team with 8 scholarship athletes, but I feel the coach has to be consistent. The players have to believe that their actions matter and they will be held accountable for them. Sure, it'd be easier to do on a team with 13 available players, but it shows a hell of a lot more conviction on a team with only 8. Don't like losing, but the mantra is "win every day", not just game day.

You're preaching to the choir, brew. Based on what I know today, I'd have benched him, too.

Quote from: MU82 on January 18, 2015, 10:06:54 PM
You're preaching to the choir, brew. Based on what I know today, I'd have benched him, too.

So would I but out of curiosity a) did you learn something new today and b) can you share it?

Quote from: connie on January 18, 2015, 12:00:30 PM
The military comes to mind.  I don't know what you mean by "work," but there goals in many organizations that stress devotion to the team, a "one for all" theory that equates group punishment as a way to ensure all are working towards group goals.  In this way, this is only partially about JJJ, and I am good with that.  The program should be more important.

If JJJ is not fulfilling his coaches expectations in practice and is NOT benched:

* it's a slap in the face to Derrick, why take 25,000 shots this summer?
* it's a slap in the face to Steve, why gut it out everyday on bad knees.
* it's a slap in the face to Luke, why play on a shoulder that might need surgery?
* it's a slap in the face to Juan, why reverse you decision to transfer and why did you spent the time to improve your senior year?
* it's a slap in the face to Sandy, why are working so hard in practice trying to impress the coach?  Just take it easy.
* it's a slap in the face to Duane, why did you battle back from the stress fracture in your foot?
* it's a slap in the face to Matt, why did you pick MU?
* it's a slap in the face to the assistant coaches, why did you relocate to Milwaukee, uprooting your families to do it?
* it's a slap in the face to the fans, why did you spend money to buy tickets
* it's a slap in the face to the incoming recruits, why did you pick MU?

The good news for JJJ is this is easily correctable.  Hopefully starting with Sunday's practice he turned it around.

Quote from: Heisenberg on January 19, 2015, 06:31:47 AM

If JJJ is not fulfilling his coaches expectations in practice and is NOT benched:

* it's a slap in the face to Derrick, why take 25,000 shots this summer?
* it's a slap in the face to Steve, why gut it out everyday on bad knees.
* it's a slap in the face to Luke, why play on a shoulder that might need surgery?
* it's a slap in the face to Juan, why reverse you decision to transfer and why did you spent the time to improve your senior year?
* it's a slap in the face to Sandy, why are working so hard in practice trying to impress the coach?  Just take it easy.
* it's a slap in the face to Duane, why did you battle back from the stress fracture in your foot?
* it's a slap in the face to Matt, why did you pick MU?
* it's a slap in the face to the assistant coaches, why did you relocate to Milwaukee, uprooting your families to do it?
* it's a slap in the face to the fans, why did you spend money to buy tickets
* it's a slap in the face to the incoming recruits, why did you pick MU?

The good news for JJJ is this is easily correctable.  Hopefully starting with Sunday's practice he turned it around.

Pretty dramatic.

But not wrong.   

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 18, 2015, 11:11:36 PM
So would I but out of curiosity a) did you learn something new today and b) can you share it?

a. Nope. Unlike it seems 75% of the posters on Scoop, I have no "inside MU sources."

b. See a.

Quote from: Heisenberg on January 19, 2015, 06:31:47 AM

If JJJ is not fulfilling his coaches expectations in practice and is NOT benched:

* it's a slap in the face to Derrick, why take 25,000 shots this summer?
* it's a slap in the face to Steve, why gut it out everyday on bad knees.
* it's a slap in the face to Luke, why play on a shoulder that might need surgery?
* it's a slap in the face to Juan, why reverse you decision to transfer and why did you spent the time to improve your senior year?
* it's a slap in the face to Sandy, why are working so hard in practice trying to impress the coach?  Just take it easy.
* it's a slap in the face to Duane, why did you battle back from the stress fracture in your foot?
* it's a slap in the face to Matt, why did you pick MU?
* it's a slap in the face to the assistant coaches, why did you relocate to Milwaukee, uprooting your families to do it?
* it's a slap in the face to the fans, why did you spend money to buy tickets
* it's a slap in the face to the incoming recruits, why did you pick MU?

The good news for JJJ is this is easily correctable.  Hopefully starting with Sunday's practice he turned it around.

You know what else is a slap in the face??  Watching your fellow guard teammates continually make bone headed plays, turn the ball over, shoot awfully yet all get a much longer leash.  Not to mention, arguably all of those guards being less talented.

Have no doubt JJJ was "hot" after the Creighton game and the 12 minutes he got, in addition to the general reality that all the other guards are getting 7 to 13 more minutes per game than him.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 08:34:43 AM
You know what else is a slap in the face??  Watching your fellow guard teammates continually make bone headed plays, turn the ball over, shoot awfully yet all get a much longer leash.  Not to mention, arguably all of those guards being less talented.

Have no doubt JJJ was "hot" after the Creighton game and the 12 minutes he got, in addition to the general reality that all the other guards are getting 7 to 13 more minutes per game than him.

Well, he can either do what is being asked of him to earn more minutes, or he can continue to do whatever it is he's doing and then transfer.  Pretty simple.  It's on him.

Quote from: connie on January 18, 2015, 12:00:30 PM
The military comes to mind.  I don't know what you mean by "work," but there goals in many organizations that stress devotion to the team, a "one for all" theory that equates group punishment as a way to ensure all are working towards group goals.  In this way, this is only partially about JJJ, and I am good with that.  The program should be more important.

Excellent point. When a North Carolina player received a technical foul, Dean Smith responded in practice by pulling up a chair, getting the offending player a Coca Cola and making the rest of the team run sprints. The offending player would sit and watch while the rest of the team paid the price.

Guess what you did not see much of while Dean Smith was head coach at UNC?

Is it any different here? Sitting JJJ and working the rest of the team harshly means that you build a sense of camradre. The best corrective action is peer pressure.

As a final note, why do you think the Packer who fumbled the on-side kick was in tears after the Seattle game yesterday. He knows he let his team down.,

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 08:34:43 AM
You know what else is a slap in the face??  Watching your fellow guard teammates continually make bone headed plays, turn the ball over, shoot awfully yet all get a much longer leash.  Not to mention, arguably all of those guards being less talented.

Have no doubt JJJ was "hot" after the Creighton game and the 12 minutes he got, in addition to the general reality that all the other guards are getting 7 to 13 more minutes per game than him.

Because they are better.  And he can do one of two things.  He can pout and sulk some more, and perhaps transfer.  Or he can step it up, get back into the coach's good graces, and earn more minutes.  The path he chooses will say a lot about him.  But IMO if he chooses the former, he will never be much of a basketball player.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 08:34:43 AM
You know what else is a slap in the face??  Watching your fellow guard teammates continually make bone headed plays, turn the ball over, shoot awfully yet all get a much longer leash.  Not to mention, arguably all of those guards being less talented.

Have no doubt JJJ was "hot" after the Creighton game and the 12 minutes he got, in addition to the general reality that all the other guards are getting 7 to 13 more minutes per game than him.

The knife cuts both ways. If you see a teammate who coasts through practice awarded with playing time, that's probably pretty deflating.

Players play a big part in deciding playing time. If you kick ass in practice, and you kick ass in games, you're going to play a lot.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 08:34:43 AM
You know what else is a slap in the face??  Watching your fellow guard teammates continually make bone headed plays, turn the ball over, shoot awfully yet all get a much longer leash. 

Once again, you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

FG%/3P%/TO per 40

Carlino  .406/.421/2.47
Derrick  .446/.304/1.51
JJJ        .426/.175/3.48

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 08:34:43 AM
You know what else is a slap in the face??  Watching your fellow guard teammates continually make bone headed plays, turn the ball over, shoot awfully yet all get a much longer leash.  Not to mention, arguably all of those guards being less talented.

Have no doubt JJJ was "hot" after the Creighton game and the 12 minutes he got, in addition to the general reality that all the other guards are getting 7 to 13 more minutes per game than him.

It shouldn't be considering that JjJ makes more boneheaded plays than anyone else on the team. This argument doesn't hold water, even when its a good player being benched. But JjJ has been arguably our sixth or seventh best player this season. The people playing above him are simply better. Despite this, he's still getting almost 20 mpg. That's pretty good, all things considered. If he doesn't recognize that, he's not very self aware.

Also, the "longer leash" argument isn't even there. JjJ has the same leash as anybody. In fact, he has a longer one than Sandy does. He gets benched more because he messes up more. Obviously we could have used him against X, but he didn't do what he needed to do to get on the court. Good for Wojo for having the balls to stick to his guns.

Now Buzz did a poor job with the follow up conversations after a kid was benched. He tended to ice them out until they started working harder. I have no doubt that Wojo will take a different approach with JjJ. Whether or not JjJ will respond, remains to be seen.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 19, 2015, 08:57:15 AM

Because they are better.  And he can do one of two things.  He can pout and sulk some more, and perhaps transfer.  Or he can step it up, get back into the coach's good graces, and earn more minutes.  The path he chooses will say a lot about him.  But IMO if he chooses the former, he will never be much of a basketball player.

I understand your point regarding pouting never being a good option.  I mentioned in another post, however, that it is very difficult for players at the high school/college level to confront their coach about their role, playing time, how they are being used.  Wainwright had to IMPLORE Todd Mayo to go to Buzz last year and ask for more playing time.  The coach holds a ton of "power" over a player, and what every player wants more than anything is playing time.  Kids don't want to be perceived as a whiner, which usually leads to kids not confronting their coach in a mature way - such as - what do I need to do to get more playing time/be able to play through my mistakes as I see other guys being afforded the opportunity to do so?  Instead, frequently kids communicate their unhappiness by half assing it at practice.

I do disagree with you, however, in that I don't believe Derrick or Duane necessarily are better players.  Duane has struggled mightily for the better part of the last 6 weeks, and quite frankly been awful, yet he's been given much more rope to play through his struggles.  Having said that, I still like Duane as a player and feel he will be a good/very good player over the course of his time at MU.  Nonetheless, players want to feel things are fair with regard to how playing time is distributed/being allowed to play through mistakes.

I am fairly certain that Wojo and others have expressed their concerns to JJJ before.  This is very likely the culmination of something that has been brewing for awhile.

And again, I don't see JJJ having a shorter rope than Duane or Sandy. 

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 09:49:42 AM
I understand your point regarding pouting never being a good option.  I mentioned in another post, however, that it is very difficult for players at the high school/college level to confront their coach about their role, playing time, how they are being used.  Wainwright had to IMPLORE Todd Mayo to go to Buzz last year and ask for more playing time.  The coach holds a ton of "power" over a player, and what every player wants more than anything is playing time.  Kids don't want to be perceived as a whiner, which usually leads to kids not confronting their coach in a mature way - such as - what do I need to do to get more playing time/be able to play through my mistakes as I see other guys being afforded the opportunity to do so?  Instead, frequently kids communicate their unhappiness by half assing it at practice.

I do disagree with you, however, in that I don't believe Derrick or Duane necessarily are better players.  Duane has struggled mightily for the better part of the last 6 weeks, and quite frankly been awful, yet he's been given much more rope to play through his struggles.  Having said that, I still like Duane as a player and feel he will be a good/very good player over the course of his time at MU.  Nonetheless, players want to feel things are fair with regard to how playing time is distributed/being allowed to play through mistakes.

If we believe that Duane has a longer leash*, maybe he has earned it because he busts his ass everyday?

*not saying that I believe this, but for the sake of this conversation

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on January 19, 2015, 09:59:03 AM
If we believe that Duane has a longer leash*, maybe he has earned it because he busts his ass everyday?

*not saying that I believe this, but for the sake of this conversation

Sure - that's plausible. However, usually a player will bust their ass and grind - yet when they begin to feel that another guy is getting more rope/slack, it affects a player's buy-in and belief in their head coach.

Buzz said last year that during boot camp JJJ was the best as far as showing up, grinding, etc.  The competitive spirit is alive and well, and all is good at the beginning of a "marriage" between player and coach - then, at some point if the player feels they are busting their ass, performing relatively similarly to another player, yet see that player get more rope - it affects attitude.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 10:14:50 AM
Sure - that's plausible. However, usually a player will bust their ass and grind - yet when they begin to feel that another guy is getting more rope/slack, it affects a player's buy-in and belief in their head coach.

Buzz said last year that during boot camp JJJ was the best as far as showing up, grinding, etc.  The competitive spirit is alive and well, and all is good at the beginning of a "marriage" between player and coach - then, at some point if the player feels they are busting their ass, performing relatively similarly to another player, yet see that player get more rope - it affects attitude.

Look, it is very simple.  Wojo is the coach.  JJJ is the player.  Wojo determines how and why players play.  If JJJ feels he is being treated unfair, he is free to go.

Yet another season of you insinuating the coach doesn't know what he is doing and doesn't know how to communicate with his players.  Last year it was Dawson.  This year its JJJ.

Not interested.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 19, 2015, 10:17:21 AM
Look, it is very simple.  Wojo is the coach.  JJJ is the player.  Wojo determines how and why players play.  If JJJ feels he is being treated unfair, he is free to go.

Yet another season of you insinuating the coach doesn't know what he is doing and doesn't know how to communicate with his players.  Last year it was Dawson.  This year its JJJ.

Not interested.

Personally, I don't like seeing Burton a Top 60 talent leaving the program.  Didn't like seeing McKay leave.  Dawson leave. Won't like seeing JJJ, a Top 40 talent leave the program.  Of course it will take 3-4 years to see if Wojo's plan/process work - but though Wojo had a GREAT first recruiting class - getting talent to MU has never been easy.  Running off some existing talent within the program due to perhaps not being malleable in my view isn't a good sign.

So yes, a coach determines how and why a player plays and have that power.  The player leverages their power when they leave the program/coach.

And btw - I'm not insinuating Wojo doesn't know what he is doing or doesn't know how to communicate with his players - I'm simply sharing the player's perspective.   Think it will be telling to see how things go starting Wednesday night - perhaps the benching leads to a conversation that needed to be had, for both JJJ and Wojo to get back on the same page.  Or it leads to a bigger divide between the player and coach.

Ners, is anything ever a player's fault for you? (Besides Derrick of course) Or is it always the coach's fault?

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 10:14:50 AM
Sure - that's plausible. However, usually a player will bust their ass and grind - yet when they begin to feel that another guy is getting more rope/slack, it affects a player's buy-in and belief in their head coach.

Buzz said last year that during boot camp JJJ was the best as far as showing up, grinding, etc.  The competitive spirit is alive and well, and all is good at the beginning of a "marriage" between player and coach - then, at some point if the player feels they are busting their ass, performing relatively similarly to another player, yet see that player get more rope - it affects attitude.

It seems like you are traveling a great distance to find a scenario you like.

Wojo has straight up said: You have to practice hard in order to play.

JJJ can either practice hard, or he can ride the bench.

We can twist ourselves into all sorts of knots and try to examine JJJ's psychological state because Derrick Wilson gets too many minutes, or JJJ can just work a little harder, play a little better, and he can have all of the minutes he wants.

Ners is back.  Same old.  If this is how this board is going to be again, good, I can start to visit a lot less often.

All that matters is today and pleasing the players to keep them happy.  Too bad for the long term.
I think of Kennedy at DePaul as a coach that let the players have there way, keep the players happy and have a program that never lives up to expectations.

Gotta keep the standards high. I'd hate to be on a team where a coach tolerated and coddled lack of effort, showing up late, etc. 

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 19, 2015, 10:17:21 AM
Wojo determines how and why players play.

I actually disagree with this a little bit.

The players actually play a huge part in who plays. If (insert player) kicks ass in practice, always knows his assignments on the floor, and is productive in games, he's going to get minutes. Steve Taylor's Frosh year is a good example. He was good enough that he forced Buzz to find him more and more PT.

So, while I understand its seems like the HC is making all of the substitutions arbitrarily, the reality is that over the course of the season, the best players (in practice and in games) are going to get the most minutes.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on January 19, 2015, 10:47:04 AM
I actually disagree with this a little bit.

The players actually play a huge part in who plays. If (insert player) kicks ass in practice, always knows his assignments on the floor, and is productive in games, he's going to get minutes. Steve Taylor's Frosh year is a good example. He was good enough that he forced Buzz to find him more and more PT.

So, while I understand its seems like the HC is making all of the substitutions arbitrarily, the reality is that over the course of the season, the best players (in practice and in games) are going to get the most minutes.

This is an outstanding observation.

As a middle-school coach, many players who at first didn't impress me eventually "forced" me to play them by their effort, desire, improvement, leadership, attention to detail, etc.

Exactly, 82.   When you start noticing that a player that you didn't think much of is consistently the first one back on defense, knows who he is guarding, understands where to go on offense, you start rewarding that.  I made an adjustment to one of the offensive sets just to get him a shot because of all of the hard work he is doing.  He isn't a good shooter yet, and catching the ball is an adventure, but I am going to reward his work.   On  this year's team, I haven't had any attitude problems, so nothing working in the other direction.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 19, 2015, 10:39:26 AM
Ners, is anything ever a player's fault for you? (Besides Derrick of course) Or is it always the coach's fault?

Fair question...and I'd ask the same back to you: Is it ever a coaches fault, or is it always the players?  You and many of the others I consistently disagreed with last year and this year generally always take the view that it is the players fault (other than Derrick's of course)?

With regard to the last two seasons, I call it the way I see it.  I've seen highly unproductive veterans NOT get benched for poor and awful play ON the floor, while seeing more talented, albeit younger players nailed to the bench for not apparently performing well enough in practice.

Personally my view on last year and this year is that you play the younger, more talented guys, who are the future of the program - let them get a lot of game experience, take their lumps - and as a coach give the player actual game data to say, "Look, based on your play in games, this is where we need to improve."  (You make that conclusion once the veterans are consistently proving they aren't a winning formula - as was the case last year..and will be again this year.)  I've said many times when a player is looking over their shoulder at the bench if they make a mistake, they play tight, play under pressure, and that does NOT lead to their best performance.  

Quote from: TSmith34 on January 19, 2015, 09:35:01 AM
Once again, you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

FG%/3P%/TO per 40

Carlino  .406/.421/2.47
Derrick  .446/.304/1.51
JJJ        .426/.175/3.48

I don't have an issue with Carlino getting max minutes, btw.  Derrick has been obviously better this year than last and has had some nice moments - yet he isn't more talented than JJJ, nor is he a key piece of the future of the program.  The bigger point I've been making though is:  How has Duane Wilson been playing the last 6 weeks??

Do you feel Duane has been good?  Or even decent?  Has Duane NOT had maddening and frequent turnovers, ill advised shots, out of control play?  Yet has Duane generally been given 27+ minutes per game?

The point again is, if as a player you start to sense one guy gets a lot more rope to play through mistakes, than do you - it doesn't bode well for your attitude nor view of the coach.

We need more floor slapping out of jjj

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 19, 2015, 10:39:26 AM
Ners, is anything ever a player's fault for you? (Besides Derrick of course) Or is it always the coach's fault?

Not to mention his incessant rantings about "top 100 player rankings" as if that is that is the be all and end all for on court performance.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 12:25:20 PM
I don't have an issue with Carlino getting max minutes, btw.  Derrick has been obviously better this year than last and has had some nice moments - yet he isn't more talented than JJJ, nor is he a key piece of the future of the program.  The bigger point I've been making though is:  How has Duane Wilson been playing the last 6 weeks??

Do you feel Duane has been good?  Or even decent?  Has Duane NOT had maddening and frequent turnovers, ill advised shots, out of control play?  Yet has Duane generally been given 27+ minutes per game?

The point again is, if as a player you start to sense one guy gets a lot more rope to play through mistakes, than do you - it doesn't bode well for your attitude nor view of the coach.

Even with a -0-  for Xavier JJJ is at 21.6 mpg.  I guess I don't see this as "a lot more rope" not knowing any of the other multiple possible factors that lead to the decision on playing time in general or this game in particular.  

Quote from: MU82 on January 19, 2015, 11:35:49 AM
This is an outstanding observation.

As a middle-school coach, many players who at first didn't impress me eventually "forced" me to play them by their effort, desire, improvement, leadership, attention to detail, etc.

I think your looking at a prime example when Wojo did the same to Coach k

Quote from: connie on January 19, 2015, 12:41:41 PM
Even with a -0-  for Xavier JJJ is at 21.6 mpg.  I guess I don't see this as "a lot more rope" not knowing any of the other multiple possible factors that lead to the decision on playing time in general or this game in particular.  

Duane has 28 TOs on the season compared to JJJ's 30, despite Duane playing 123 more minutes. In BE play, Duane has turned it over 9 times in 139 minutes compared to 10 times in 74 minutes for JJJ.

If Player A is shooting the ball 29% from the floor and 0% from 3 in conference play, while turning the ball over at a TO Rate of 21.6%, PLUS he's not focused during practice, it's tough to make a case for him seeing more minutes, IMO.

Quote from: tower912 on January 19, 2015, 11:42:39 AM
Exactly, 82.   When you start noticing that a player that you didn't think much of is consistently the first one back on defense, knows who he is guarding, understands where to go on offense, you start rewarding that.  I made an adjustment to one of the offensive sets just to get him a shot because of all of the hard work he is doing.  He isn't a good shooter yet, and catching the ball is an adventure, but I am going to reward his work.   On  this year's team, I haven't had any attitude problems, so nothing working in the other direction.

Yep. I mean, I doubt Al was especially impressed by Neary's athletic ability or Scout ranking. (Yes, I know there were no Scout rankings back then.)

Quote from: MU82 on January 19, 2015, 01:41:49 PM
Yep. I mean, I doubt Al was especially impressed by Neary's athletic ability or Scout ranking. (Yes, I know there were no Scout rankings back then.)

Unfortunately, Neary was not good in a zone and MU played a lot of zone that season since the team was not that quick.  When MU went to the zone in the championship game, out went Neary.  Al finally figured that out.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 12:19:54 PM

Personally my view on last year and this year is that you play the younger, more talented guys, who are the future of the program - let them get a lot of game experience, take their lumps - and as a coach give the player actual game data to say, "Look, based on your play in games, this is where we need to improve."

Also, just to address this, College coaches have a limited lifespan. They don't often get long rebuilding periods, so they are trying to win, and rebuild at the same time.

AND, once you get on that "let's play the younger guys" carrousel, when do you get off? Play JJJ this season because he is the future? Great, well, JJJ is going to be on the bench next year because Cheatam is the future. AND Cheatam will be on the bench in 2017, because (insert higher rated recruit) will be the future.

I'd guess that the vast majority of coaches push their players to be the best they can be, and play the best players the most minutes... but maybe I'm crazy.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 12:25:20 PM
I don't have an issue with Carlino getting max minutes, btw.  Derrick has been obviously better this year than last and has had some nice moments - yet he isn't more talented than JJJ, nor is he a key piece of the future of the program.  The bigger point I've been making though is:  How has Duane Wilson been playing the last 6 weeks??

Do you feel Duane has been good?  Or even decent?  Has Duane NOT had maddening and frequent turnovers, ill advised shots, out of control play?  Yet has Duane generally been given 27+ minutes per game?

Ah, the old Gish Gallop from you again.  So now it isn't about Derrick or Carlino, it's really about Duane?  And JJJ shouldn't sit for not doing what is expected of him because he is better than Duane?

Ok, Big East play:

FG%/3P%/TO per 40

Duane  .364/.286/2.79
JJJ       .290/.000/5.41

Once again, your narrative has nothing to do with reality. I look forward to your next moving of the goalposts.

The next step in the narrative will be that JJJ's numbers are bad because (A) Wojo doesn't understand him, (B) Wojo is only playing player who have ingratiated themselves to him, (C) It doesn't matter because JJJ had that one good half in that one game that one time. 

Quote from: tower912 on January 19, 2015, 02:50:30 PM
The next step in the narrative will be that JJJ's numbers are bad because (A) Wojo doesn't understand him, (B) Wojo is only playing player who have ingratiated themselves to him, (C) It doesn't matter because JJJ had that one good half in that one game that one time. 

I would have gone with...But JJJ is constantly looking over his shoulder to see if he's getting hooked and/or JJJ only gets short runs so it's impossible for him to contribute.

Quote from: tower912 on January 19, 2015, 02:50:30 PM
The next step in the narrative will be that JJJ's numbers are bad because (A) Wojo doesn't understand him, (B) Wojo is only playing player who have ingratiated themselves to him, (C) It doesn't matter because JJJ had that one good half in that one game that one time.  

How can you expect JJJ to play well when he's got such a short leash?

If you've ever played hoops at a high level, you know it's impossible to play well when you are constantly afraid of getting pulled. LOL. Some of you guys just don't know what it's like.

JJJ needs to play 40 minutes per game. Period.  

Let the kid play, and he might surprise you.

Quote from: tower912 on January 19, 2015, 02:50:30 PM
The next step in the narrative will be that JJJ's numbers are bad because (A) Wojo doesn't understand him, (B) Wojo is only playing player who have ingratiated themselves to him, (C) It doesn't matter because JJJ had that one good half in that one game that one time. 

You know you can't get into the flow of the game without getting x minutes at a time.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on January 19, 2015, 02:57:45 PM
How can you expect JJJ to play well when he's got such a short leash?

If you've ever played hoops at a high level, you know it's impossible to play well when you are constantly afraid of getting pulled. LOL. Some of you guys just don't know what it's like.

JJJ needs to play 40 minutes per game. Period.  

Let the kid play, and he might surprise you.

Magic Dawson might be gone, but thankfully we still have JaJuan Jordan.

It's Derrick's fault.    Flooding?   Derrick's fault.   Earthquakes?    Derrick's fault.   Terrorism?   Buzz and Wojo falling for Derrick's sycophantic practice habits.    Male pattern baldness?   The fool's gold of knowing your assignment, playing defense, protecting the ball, being a leader.   The Packer's collapse against Seattle?   Derrick's fault.    It was Derrick that picked up the flag during the Dallas/Detroit game.   Derrick was on the grassy knoll in Dallas.    The 25 year premature premonition of Derrick's presence drove Dahmer insane.   ::)

Quote from: TSmith34 on January 19, 2015, 02:40:37 PM
Ah, the old Gish Gallop from you again.  So now it isn't about Derrick or Carlino, it's really about Duane?  And JJJ shouldn't sit for not doing what is expected of him because he is better than Duane?

Ok, Big East play:

FG%/3P%/TO per 40

Duane  .364/.286/2.79
JJJ       .290/.000/5.41

Once again, your narrative has nothing to do with reality. I look forward to your next moving of the goalposts.

I'm not saying JJJ is better than Duane - just was saying that Duane hasn't been very good either..if you want, go back to the Wisconsin game as a starting point.  

JJJ will be a good college player - whether at MU or elsewhere.  

Quote from: tower912 on January 19, 2015, 03:16:41 PM
It's Derrick's fault.    Flooding?   Derrick's fault.   Earthquakes?    Derrick's fault.   Terrorism?   Buzz and Wojo falling for Derrick's sycophantic practice habits.    Male pattern baldness?   The fool's gold of knowing your assignment, playing defense, protecting the ball, being a leader.   The Packer's collapse against Seattle?   Derrick's fault.    It was Derrick that picked up the flag during the Dallas/Detroit game.   Derrick was on the grassy knoll in Dallas.    The 25 year premature premonition of Derrick's presence drove Dahmer insane.   ::)

Obsessed much? 

You are Dr. Leo Marvin.   Derrick is Bob.    You make me laugh. 

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 12:19:54 PM
Fair question...and I'd ask the same back to you: Is it ever a coaches fault, or is it always the players?  You and many of the others I consistently disagreed with last year and this year generally always take the view that it is the players fault (other than Derrick's of course)?

With regard to the last two seasons, I call it the way I see it.  I've seen highly unproductive veterans NOT get benched for poor and awful play ON the floor, while seeing more talented, albeit younger players nailed to the bench for not apparently performing well enough in practice.

Personally my view on last year and this year is that you play the younger, more talented guys, who are the future of the program - let them get a lot of game experience, take their lumps - and as a coach give the player actual game data to say, "Look, based on your play in games, this is where we need to improve."  (You make that conclusion once the veterans are consistently proving they aren't a winning formula - as was the case last year..and will be again this year.)  I've said many times when a player is looking over their shoulder at the bench if they make a mistake, they play tight, play under pressure, and that does NOT lead to their best performance.  

This is how a player views things. Ners is correct. The coach has every right to handle things the way he does. I believe Wojo handles this situation poorly. I know this kid and he is to say the least a free spirit, however the one thing he always does is bust his tail . So yes maybe he forces it too much or whatever , but my view is that other kids do the same thing and have a much longer leash.  The other reason it is poorly handled us the kid had a very nice overall game against a decent Providence team where he did what ever the team needed to win. My sense is Wojo is a very button down corporate kind of guy and serious minded  kids like Duane are much more to his liking than JJJ .  So Duane gets extended leash for doing same things as JJJ.

JJJ will just have to grow up quickly and realize that coaches confidence has to be earned in more than one way.

Quote from: Texas Western on January 19, 2015, 03:30:07 PM
This is how a player views things. Ners is correct. The coach has every right to handle things the way he does. I believe Wojo handles this situation poorly. I know this kid and he is to say the least a free spirit, however the one thing he always does is bust his tail . So yes maybe he forces it too much or whatever , but my view is that other kids do the same thing and have a much longer leash.  The other reason it is poorly handled us the kid had a very nice overall game against a decent Providence team where he did what ever the team needed to win. My sense is Wojo is a very button down corporate kind of guy and serious minded  kids like Duane are much more to his liking than JJJ .  So Duane gets extended leash for doing same things as JJJ.

JJJ will just have to grow up quickly and realize that coaches confidence has to be earned in more than one way.

Quote from: Texas Western on January 19, 2015, 03:30:07 PM
This is how a player views things. Ners is correct. The coach has every right to handle things the way he does. I believe Wojo handles this situation poorly. I know this kid and he is to say the least a free spirit, however the one thing he always does is bust his tail . So yes maybe he forces it too much or whatever , but my view is that other kids do the same thing and have a much longer leash.  The other reason it is poorly handled us the kid had a very nice overall game against a decent Providence team where he did what ever the team needed to win. My sense is Wojo is a very button down corporate kind of guy and serious minded  kids like Duane are much more to his liking than JJJ .  So Duane gets extended leash for doing same things as JJJ.

JJJ will just have to grow up quickly and realize that coaches confidence has to be earned in more than one way.

You say these things without any support.  Certainly the numbers do not suggest you are correct. They show better performance by Duane despite the past six or so games and while Duane plays more minutes, not dramatically so. I don't know what basis you have to dispute Wojo's statements about the justification for sitting JJJ but you certainly haven't clued anyone else in.  I do not know the kid, but accept your view, and if you are right, then let's hope he learns from this and doesn't do whatever it was that caused him to get benched. It's not like we don't need all the help we can get.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 03:18:54 PM
I'm not saying JJJ is better than Duane - just was saying that Duane hasn't been very good either..if you want, go back to the Wisconsin game as a starting point.  

JJJ will be a good college player - whether at MU or elsewhere.  

I think most people think JJJ can be a good college player. I still do. Wojo probably does too, that's why he's pushing him.

But, right now, JJJ's not very good in games, and according to his coach, he's not very good in practice.

That's it. I don't think we have travel very far for an explanation.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 03:18:54 PM
I'm not saying JJJ is better than Duane - just was saying that Duane hasn't been very good either

No, that's exactly want you were trying to say.  After it was shown that Derrick and Carlino were performing better than JJJ, you changed the argument to be "Duane is awful, why does he get a longer leash?" as some sort of reason that JJJ should play despite not practicing well.  When it is shown that JJJ has played more poorly than Duane you claim that wasn't your point.  Now your point is "JJJ will be good".

OK

Was much easier to make a case for anybody over Derrick last season than for JJJ over anybody this season.

I stuck up for JJJ earlier in the season, but he has been quite awful lately and, apparently practices like crap, too. Wojo, meanwhile, has given me zero reason to doubt his sincerity.

I know, I know, I'm such a slurper.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 12:19:54 PM
Fair question...and I'd ask the same back to you: Is it ever a coaches fault, or is it always the players?  You and many of the others I consistently disagreed with last year and this year generally always take the view that it is the players fault (other than Derrick's of course)?

With regard to the last two seasons, I call it the way I see it.  I've seen highly unproductive veterans NOT get benched for poor and awful play ON the floor, while seeing more talented, albeit younger players nailed to the bench for not apparently performing well enough in practice.

Personally my view on last year and this year is that you play the younger, more talented guys, who are the future of the program - let them get a lot of game experience, take their lumps - and as a coach give the player actual game data to say, "Look, based on your play in games, this is where we need to improve."  (You make that conclusion once the veterans are consistently proving they aren't a winning formula - as was the case last year..and will be again this year.)  I've said many times when a player is looking over their shoulder at the bench if they make a mistake, they play tight, play under pressure, and that does NOT lead to their best performance.  

After working with athletes and coaches at four different universities I have found the 99% of players who are benched deserve it, whether it be because they didn't do what they need to do to get onto the court or because they aren't very good. In fact, in my experience, it is 100%. But I assume that there are cases that have occurred at other schools that go the other way.

Now, I have seen coaches who bench a kid and then fail on the communication and follow up. The fault there ends up being closer to 50/50....coach is still in the right usually, but I have seen coaches who are poor communicators and kids get frustrated because they don't know why they were benched or what they need to do to get better.

In college basketball, you never play for the future. At least not in the way you are suggesting. You don't play the younger guys, who aren't as good now, just because they will be there in the next season. You play the players who give you the best chance of wining the game right in front of you...unless they don't earn the time in practice. Playing time in this season does not guarantee success in the following season. But playing inferior players does guarantee failure in the current season.

I bought your "veterans with longer leashes" and "benching the young talent" argument to a point last season. Derrick clearly had a longer leash than Dawson. I would argue that its because Derrick is better than Dawson was, but that's not the point. I really don't see it this season. I'm not sure what you see in JjJ but the kid has not be good. I love when he gets steals but what happens more often is he lunges for a steal, misses, and ends up near the half court line while the other team gets an open shot or easy drive. JjJ is our 2nd or 3rd worst player, he deserves the bench. Duane did struggle for a long time, but he was pulled too. He averaged about 22 minutes per game during the middle and end of his slump. Carlino had an awful shooting game against Depaul. The next game, Wojo pulled Carlino after every missed three. If anything, JjJ had too long of a leash before the DNP against X.

I know you are frustrated that we are losing. I know its tempting to look and say "we have a former top 40 kid on the bench, if we play him, the season will be saved." But wishing it doesn't make it so. The only thing that can save this season is improved play from every member of time. They need to become more than they currently are. Because the skill they have now is not good enough, no matter who you put on the floor.

Quote from: tower912 on January 19, 2015, 03:16:41 PM
The Packer's collapse against Seattle?   Derrick's fault.

I used to support him. But not that I know this...GET ME THAT SOB'S HEAD!

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 19, 2015, 04:01:25 PM
After working with athletes and coaches at four different universities I have found the 99% of players who are benched deserve it, whether it be because they didn't do what they need to do to get onto the court or because they aren't very good. In fact, in my experience, it is 100%. But I assume that there are cases that have occurred at other schools that go the other way.

Now, I have seen coaches who bench a kid and then fail on the communication and follow up. The fault there ends up being closer to 50/50....coach is still in the right usually, but I have seen coaches who are poor communicators and kids get frustrated because they don't know why they were benched or what they need to do to get better.

In college basketball, you never play for the future. At least not in the way you are suggesting. You don't play the younger guys, who aren't as good now, just because they will be there in the next season. You play the players who give you the best chance of wining the game right in front of you...unless they don't earn the time in practice. Playing time in this season does not guarantee success in the following season. But playing inferior players does guarantee failure in the current season.

I bought your "veterans with longer leashes" and "benching the young talent" argument to a point last season. Derrick clearly had a longer leash than Dawson. I would argue that its because Derrick is better than Dawson was, but that's not the point. I really don't see it this season. I'm not sure what you see in JjJ but the kid has not be good. I love when he gets steals but what happens more often is he lunges for a steal, misses, and ends up near the half court line while the other team gets an open shot or easy drive. JjJ is our 2nd or 3rd worst player, he deserves the bench. Duane did struggle for a long time, but he was pulled too. He averaged about 22 minutes per game during the middle and end of his slump. Carlino had an awful shooting game against Depaul. The next game, Wojo pulled Carlino after every missed three. If anything, JjJ had too long of a leash before the DNP against X.

I know you are frustrated that we are losing. I know its tempting to look and say "we have a former top 40 kid on the bench, if we play him, the season will be saved." But wishing it doesn't make it so. The only thing that can save this season is improved play from every member of time. They need to become more than they currently are. Because the skill they have now is not good enough, no matter who you put on the floor.

I agree with the general point of view you are offering in this post. My issue is that JJJ has demonstrated on numerous occasions in different ways that he has the game to produce big and contribute to winning . Look to our illustrious STOG he has it twice and many people supported him in other games. We all know that scoopers are sage lol. So when a kid has this ability I tend to put him into the 50 50 paradigm you are outlining above. I think we have a cool hand Luke type scenario with a failure to communicate to this kid. Which of course ends in JJJ being in jail.

Quote from: TSmith34 on January 19, 2015, 03:43:30 PM
No, that's exactly want you were trying to say.  After it was shown that Derrick and Carlino were performing better than JJJ, you changed the argument to be "Duane is awful, why does he get a longer leash?" as some sort of reason that JJJ should play despite not practicing well.  When it is shown that JJJ has played more poorly than Duane you claim that wasn't your point.  Now your point is "JJJ will be good".

OK

My original post said arguably the most talented guard.  Nobody doubts Carlino isn't worthy of his minutes.  He's a 5th year senior - and he deserves his minutes.  I'm avoiding any commentary on Derrick as best I can, yet don't think anyone would argue JJJ isn't more talented.  I've said in multiple posts Duane hasn't been very good over the last 6 weeks, yet has been getting a lot more rope.

Knock yourself out comparing Duane and JJJ side by side.  It's about even.  JJJ assists at a higher rate, steals at a higher rate, rebounds at a higher rate, blocks shots at a higher rate, fouls less, has a better overall FG%, and averages exactly 0.7 less points per 40 than Duane.


http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=3-jajuan-johnson&p1=duane-wilson

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 19, 2015, 04:01:25 PM
After working with athletes and coaches at four different universities I have found the 99% of players who are benched deserve it, whether it be because they didn't do what they need to do to get onto the court or because they aren't very good. In fact, in my experience, it is 100%. But I assume that there are cases that have occurred at other schools that go the other way.

Now, I have seen coaches who bench a kid and then fail on the communication and follow up. The fault there ends up being closer to 50/50....coach is still in the right usually, but I have seen coaches who are poor communicators and kids get frustrated because they don't know why they were benched or what they need to do to get better.

In college basketball, you never play for the future. At least not in the way you are suggesting. You don't play the younger guys, who aren't as good now, just because they will be there in the next season. You play the players who give you the best chance of wining the game right in front of you...unless they don't earn the time in practice. Playing time in this season does not guarantee success in the following season. But playing inferior players does guarantee failure in the current season.

I bought your "veterans with longer leashes" and "benching the young talent" argument to a point last season. Derrick clearly had a longer leash than Dawson. I would argue that its because Derrick is better than Dawson was, but that's not the point. I really don't see it this season. I'm not sure what you see in JjJ but the kid has not be good. I love when he gets steals but what happens more often is he lunges for a steal, misses, and ends up near the half court line while the other team gets an open shot or easy drive. JjJ is our 2nd or 3rd worst player, he deserves the bench. Duane did struggle for a long time, but he was pulled too. He averaged about 22 minutes per game during the middle and end of his slump. Carlino had an awful shooting game against Depaul. The next game, Wojo pulled Carlino after every missed three. If anything, JjJ had too long of a leash before the DNP against X.

I know you are frustrated that we are losing. I know its tempting to look and say "we have a former top 40 kid on the bench, if we play him, the season will be saved." But wishing it doesn't make it so. The only thing that can save this season is improved play from every member of time. They need to become more than they currently are. Because the skill they have now is not good enough, no matter who you put on the floor.

Nice points.  So essentially, in your world, the coach is always right.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on January 19, 2015, 03:38:09 PM

Meme watch: Extended Leash

Quote from: Texas Western on January 19, 2015, 03:30:07 PM
This is how a player views things. Ners is correct. The coach has every right to handle things the way he does. I believe Wojo handles this situation poorly. I know this kid and he is to say the least a free spirit, however the one thing he always does is bust his tail . So yes maybe he forces it too much or whatever , but my view is that other kids do the same thing and have a much longer leash.  The other reason it is poorly handled us the kid had a very nice overall game against a decent Providence team where he did what ever the team needed to win. My sense is Wojo is a very button down corporate kind of guy and serious minded  kids like Duane are much more to his liking than JJJ .  So Duane gets extended leash for doing same things as JJJ.

JJJ will just have to grow up quickly and realize that coaches confidence has to be earned in more than one way.

So because the kid is a free spirit, Wojo should give him more playing time....even though his numbers on the court (and apparently in practice) don't justify it?

I really hope this isn't a playing time issue for JjJ, because if it is, he's not showing much self awareness. He is a backup guard. I don't think anyone here would try to say anything different. Based on the way he's played on the court, he should either by or first or second guy off the bench. Despite him being a backup, he has gotten a crap ton of minutes. Here are the minutes from the seven games before the Creighton game:

ASU: 32 minutes
Alabama A&M: 22
North Dakota: 29
Morgan State: 26
Depaul: 17
Providence: 25
Georgetown 20

So 7 straight games of ample playing time. Then his minutes get cut to 12 in the Creighton game. Still a decent amount of time for a backup. Especially considering that he went 1-3 from the field, committed 3 turnovers, and had at least 2 major defensive lapses that I can remember off the top of my head.

If getting his minutes cut to 12, for one game, after 7 straight of ample minutes, in a game where he struggled mightily, after a game where he also struggled (2-7 shooting, 0-3 3P), was enough to set him pouting about playing time, that is a poor attitude and cancerous to the team.

Personally, I don't think JjJ is that type of kid. I think some of us here are frustrated by losing. We see a kid on the bench who is not living up to the his HS ranking. We can't admit that maybe the kid isn't as good as his high school ranking suggested or needs more time to get there, because that would mean that the season is lost and we will keep on losing. Instead, we create a story in which the coach is misusing or mistreating a player and the player is justifiably upset and ergo isn't playing up to his potential. We embrace this story because it allows to hope that the coach will see the error of his ways and we will start winning again.

This story is sad and kind of pathetic. It's not fair to Wojo because it implies that he is either bad at his job or is a bad person. It's not fair to JjJ because it implies that he isn't self aware, is pouty, and will quit at the first sign of adversity. It's not fair to the other players because it shows a lack of appreciation for what they have accomplished on the court.

JjJ had a bad week. That's all we as fans know. I trust that a guy who is as relationship focused as Wojo will help him through it. Don't make up stories about things that you don't know it. It shows a lack of respect to a group of men that are working their bums off to represent our alma mater.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 04:15:29 PM
Nice points.  So essentially, in your world, the coach is always right.

What I am saying is that coach's don't send kids to bench without reason and those reasons are usually justified. I do think a lot of coaches are bad at the follow up and communicating why a player is being benched. I don't think that is the case in this situation.

Quote from: Texas Western on January 19, 2015, 04:12:00 PM
So when a kid has this ability I tend to put him into the 50 50 paradigm you are outlining above. I think we have a cool hand Luke type scenario with a failure to communicate to this kid. Which of course ends in JJJ being in jail.

What makes you think this? Wojo has stressed player relationships and open communication from day 1. He talked Steve and JjJ down from the brink of transfer. I have no inside info on this situation, but have seen nothing to suggest that Wojo is not communicating with JjJ.

JjJ had seven straight games of 17 minutes or more. In the last one, against Georgetown, he struggled. 2-7 from the field and 0-3 from 3. Combine that with his performance against Creighton and I think he was lucky to get 12 minutes in that game.

If we get another DNP in a row from JjJ, then I will start to be concerned. I don't think 1 DNP for a week of bad practice is much to be worried about. Happens all the time to bench players.

Quote from: Texas Western on January 19, 2015, 03:30:07 PM
This is how a player views things. Ners is correct. The coach has every right to handle things the way he does. I believe Wojo handles this situation poorly. I know this kid and he is to say the least a free spirit, however the one thing he always does is bust his tail . So yes maybe he forces it too much or whatever , but my view is that other kids do the same thing and have a much longer leash.  The other reason it is poorly handled us the kid had a very nice overall game against a decent Providence team where he did what ever the team needed to win. My sense is Wojo is a very button down corporate kind of guy and serious minded  kids like Duane are much more to his liking than JJJ .  So Duane gets extended leash for doing same things as JJJ.

JJJ will just have to grow up quickly and realize that coaches confidence has to be earned in more than one way.

Oh great.  Another theory.  Wojo bases his playing decisions on whether or not a player is "serious minded" or happy-go-lucky.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 04:13:25 PM
My original post said arguably the most talented guard.  Nobody doubts Carlino isn't worthy of his minutes.  He's a 5th year senior - and he deserves his minutes.  I'm avoiding any commentary on Derrick as best I can, yet don't think anyone would argue JJJ isn't more talented.  I've said in multiple posts Duane hasn't been very good over the last 6 weeks, yet has been getting a lot more rope.

Knock yourself out comparing Duane and JJJ side by side.  It's about even.  JJJ assists at a higher rate, steals at a higher rate, rebounds at a higher rate, blocks shots at a higher rate, fouls less, has a better overall FG%, and averages exactly 0.7 less points per 40 than Duane.


http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=3-jajuan-johnson&p1=duane-wilson

If you want to say Duane is the same as JJJ, fine. But, it seems likely that Duane is working harder in practice, and therefore is earning a little more PT.

When JJJ starts performing in practice, and the results translate to the court, he'll likely get more minutes. Derrick Wilson has some limitations, and it would be nice to cut his minutes back because JJJ is playing at a high level.

Quote from: Nukem2 on January 19, 2015, 01:54:45 PM
Unfortunately, Neary was not good in a zone and MU played a lot of zone that season since the team was not that quick.  When MU went to the zone in the championship game, out went Neary.  Al finally figured that out.

I do not think Al finally figured that out. He knew that all the time. He was trying to make Toone play up to his ability. Al was a street fighter and he was not happy with Toone wanting to play on the outside instead of mixing it up underneath. I think one of the problems Toone had was that he was so naturally gifted that he never had to work hard. Somewhat the same problem Jamil Wilson had, but Wilson was not near as talented as Toone. Coaches play players for a reason. We may not understand or like the reason, but coaches play or not play players for a reason. Al, Buzz and Wojo were all scrappers and I can see them being upset with anything less than that out of a player.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 03:18:54 PM
I'm not saying JJJ is better than Duane - just was saying that Duane hasn't been very good either..if you want, go back to the Wisconsin game as a starting point.  

JJJ will be a good college player - whether at MU or elsewhere.  

Your shot might not be falling, but if you are doing what the coach wants you will not get in trouble as fast as a player who is not doing what the coach wants.

Quote from: bilsu on January 19, 2015, 05:31:28 PM
I do not think Al finally figured that out. He knew that all the time. He was trying to make Toone play up to his ability. Al was a street fighter and he was not happy with Toone wanting to play on the outside instead of mixing it up underneath. I think one of the problems Toone had was that he was so naturally gifted that he never had to work hard.

You are right. Al was very frustrated with the way Toone played and how hard he worked. It had nothing to do with talent

Quote from: bilsu on January 19, 2015, 05:31:28 PM
I do not think Al finally figured that out. He knew that all the time. He was trying to make Toone play up to his ability. Al was a street fighter and he was not happy with Toone wanting to play on the outside instead of mixing it up underneath. I think one of the problems Toone had was that he was so naturally gifted that he never had to work hard. Somewhat the same problem Jamil Wilson had, but Wilson was not near as talented as Toone. Coaches play players for a reason. We may not understand or like the reason, but coaches play or not play players for a reason. Al, Buzz and Wojo were all scrappers and I can see them being upset with anything less than that out of a player.

+1

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on January 19, 2015, 05:05:36 PM
If you want to say Duane is the same as JJJ, fine. But, it seems likely that Duane is working harder in practice, and therefore is earning a little more PT.

When JJJ starts performing in practice, and the results translate to the court, he'll likely get more minutes. Derrick Wilson has some limitations, and it would be nice to cut his minutes back because JJJ is playing at a high level.

Yes, when you look at Duane and JJJ side by side - you realize for the season, their body of work is quite similar.  

As Texas Western said:  JJJ is a free spirit, happy go lucky type.  Duane is a more buttoned down, serious type.  Much like Wojo.  Wojo is a corporate type.  Deonte Burton?  Also a fairly laid back kid.  Dawson?  Again, a more laid back type of personality.  This has been my point about Wojo - he was a fire and brimstone, gritty, lunch pail type of guy - can he adapt to those players who aren't of the same ilk as him?  There are many guys who have a more serene and cerebral type of approach to the game that are very good - you don't have to be a floor slapping, manic, uber intense player to be good (although for Wojo that is what it required of him to be able to play at the high major level as he didn't have the talent to get by on anything other than sheer grit and determination.)  Look how D-Wade played the game.  Very mellow.  Paul George.  Jimmy Butler.

People can say Wojo dealt with all kinds of personality types at Duke, elite talent etc. - all true - yet he was NOT the head coach, nor did he make playing time decisions, as he does now.

Having said all of this, I believe Wojo can and likely will be a very good coach at MU.  I don't doubt his X and O's knowledge at all.  Recruited a good first class.  Just slightly concerned with how he'll coach guys not of the same ilk as him.  Now, when you recruit the kids yourself, you identified traits within those players that you liked - and therefore they fit your mold.  Wojo is having to coach guys he didn't recruit - other than Sandy.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 06:40:00 PM
Yes, when you look at Duane and JJJ side by side - you realize for the season, their body of work is quite similar.  

As Texas Western said:  JJJ is a free spirit, happy go lucky type.  Duane is a more buttoned down, serious type.  Much like Wojo.  Wojo is a corporate type.  Deonte Burton?  Also a fairly laid back kid.  Dawson?  Again, a more laid back type of personality.  This has been my point about Wojo - he was a fire and brimstone, gritty, lunch pail type of guy - can he adapt to those players who aren't of the same ilk as him?  There are many guys who have a more serene and cerebral type of approach to the game that are very good - you don't have to be a floor slapping, manic, uber intense player to be good (although for Wojo that is what it required of him to be able to play at the high major level as he didn't have the talent to get by on anything other than sheer grit and determination.)  Look how D-Wade played the game.  Very mellow.  Paul George.  Jimmy Butler.

People can say Wojo dealt with all kinds of personality types at Duke, elite talent etc. - all true - yet he was NOT the head coach, nor did he make playing time decisions, as he does now.

Having said all of this, I believe Wojo can and likely will be a very good coach at MU.  I don't doubt his X and O's knowledge at all.  Recruited a good first class.  Just slightly concerned with how he'll coach guys not of the same ilk as him.  Now, when you recruit the kids yourself, you identified traits within those players that you liked - and therefore they fit your mold.  Wojo is having to coach guys he didn't recruit - other than Sandy.

Again, I think you're doing a lot of pysch work for a relatively simple answer:

#1 The kid wasn't performing like the coach wanted, so he got benched.
#2 If he has a good week of practice, he'll get to play.
#3 If he plays well, he'll get more minutes.
END.

You don't need to construct advanced narratives. This type of stuff is usually pretty simple.

He's a kid, and its entirely believable that he lost focus. It's okay. He's still on the team, and I hope he shows Wojo what he is made of.

Put it this way: If JJJ comes back and has a few good games in a row, does it mean Wojo magically figured out how to manage these free spirits? Or is it likely that JJJ simple refocused and earned some PT?

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on January 19, 2015, 06:55:59 PM
Again, I think you're doing a lot of pysch work for a relatively simple answer:

#1 The kid wasn't performing like the coach wanted, so he got benched.
#2 If he has a good week of practice, he'll get to play.
#3 If he plays well, he'll get more minutes.
END.

You don't need to construct advanced narratives. This type of stuff is usually pretty simple.

He's a kid, and its entirely believable that he lost focus. It's okay. He's still on the team, and I hope he shows Wojo what he is made of.

Put it this way: If JJJ comes back and has a few good games in a row, does it mean Wojo magically figured out how to manage these free spirits? Or is it likely that JJJ simple refocused and earned some PT?

If JJJ comes back and has a few good games, does it mean that Wojo was wrong to bench him for an entire game, that we had a legit chance of winning?

I simply don't view benching a guy for a whole game as a mature decision when the player didn't break a team rule, isn't suspended, your team is already short handed, and you lament your team being fatigued.  You can tell the player going into the game, "I didn't like your approach in practice these past few days at all - and as a result I'm going to bench you for the first half - but get out their and kick a$$ in the second half."

Playing head games with players is a very dangerous and slippery slope.  And benching a kid like JJJ midway through conference play is playing mindgames.  So, if JJJ gets to play next game, again, is he not going to be tight as hell going out there afraid to screw up knowing that he got pulled against Creighton, benched the next game against X?  You erode a players confidence when you play mind games and have him on a short leash - it's one thing to screw up making effort and aggressive plays - it's different if your mistakes are those of a lazy variety.

Honestly, I think a half game suspension is weak. Buzz did it a few times and while it sometimes worked to our advantage (WVU especially) it felt like a weak suspension. It's basically saying "I want to punish you, but not so much that I punish myself."

I'm upset that JJJ was benched for the Xavier game. I do think him being available might have been the difference in winning and losing. But I'm NOT mad at the coach, I'm mad at the player. Don't do stupid and lazy things and you'll play. I really think it's that simple.

Sitting him for a half is like grounding a kid but letting them still play Xbox. If you're going to punish them, punish them. Half measures rarely work.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 07:07:26 PM
Playing head games with players is a very dangerous and slippery slope.  And benching a kid like JJJ midway through conference play is playing mindgames.  So, if JJJ gets to play next game, again, is he not going to be tight as hell going out there afraid to screw up knowing that he got pulled against Creighton, benched the next game against X?  You erode a players confidence when you play mind games and have him on a short leash - it's one thing to screw up making effort and aggressive plays - it's different if your mistakes are those of a lazy variety.

Ners, along with being a former high school player, and a former team manager, you didn't tell us that you are a former sports psychologist.

I sure wish Wojo had some good training before he became a head coach.  I don't think he was ever a team manager.  Or an assistant to an assistant coach.  

Welcome back.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 07:07:26 PM
If JJJ comes back and has a few good games, does it mean that Wojo was wrong to bench him for an entire game, that we had a legit chance of winning?

I simply don't view benching a guy for a whole game as a mature decision when the player didn't break a team rule, isn't suspended, your team is already short handed, and you lament your team being fatigued.  You can tell the player going into the game, "I didn't like your approach in practice these past few days at all - and as a result I'm going to bench you for the first half - but get out their and kick a$$ in the second half."

Playing head games with players is a very dangerous and slippery slope.  And benching a kid like JJJ midway through conference play is playing mindgames.  So, if JJJ gets to play next game, again, is he not going to be tight as hell going out there afraid to screw up knowing that he got pulled against Creighton, benched the next game against X?  You erode a players confidence when you play mind games and have him on a short leash - it's one thing to screw up making effort and aggressive plays - it's different if your mistakes are those of a lazy variety.

I don't think this is a mind game at all. I think it's clear as day:
- Practice hard and focus, and you'll play.
- Don't practice hard, and you'll be benched. 

It's a culture. This isn't arbitrary. This isn't an accident.

Now, it's up to Wojo to communicate with JJJ and help him refocus this week. If JJJ comes back and has a great couple of weeks of practices, then it was worth it, yes.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 07:07:26 PM
If JJJ comes back and has a few good games, does it mean that Wojo was wrong to bench him for an entire game, that we had a legit chance of winning?

I simply don't view benching a guy for a whole game as a mature decision when the player didn't break a team rule, isn't suspended, your team is already short handed, and you lament your team being fatigued.  You can tell the player going into the game, "I didn't like your approach in practice these past few days at all - and as a result I'm going to bench you for the first half - but get out their and kick a$$ in the second half."

Playing head games with players is a very dangerous and slippery slope.  And benching a kid like JJJ midway through conference play is playing mindgames.  So, if JJJ gets to play next game, again, is he not going to be tight as hell going out there afraid to screw up knowing that he got pulled against Creighton, benched the next game against X?  You erode a players confidence when you play mind games and have him on a short leash - it's one thing to screw up making effort and aggressive plays - it's different if your mistakes are those of a lazy variety.

These are excellent points. I agree wholeheartedly that Wojo's action are playing mindgames. This kid has constantly worked hard and hustled. No one has ever said he hasn't . People on this board are calling him lazy but that is not the case at all.

I see it this way, JJJ was a top 30 in High School because he has some incredible skills driving the ball transition short range floaters etc. He has now been exposed in college, as many have pointed out because of the hitch in his shot. So from 15 feet out he is not a factor. He does have an excellent free throw motion and rate so he is not a lost cause at all. The coaches should be working with and embellishing all the good things he does .  Then work with him to improve ;the other areas of the game. It is up to the coaches to be grown ups and understand all kids are not the same personalities. Yes it is far easier for Wojo to relate to Derrick and it is not just because he is a lunch bucket player. It is because  the way  Derrick comportes himself , he could easily have been a NARP at  Duke with his background (son of military, attended a top 5 prep school etc). Similarly , Duane is very serious, son of a coach. On the other hand JJJ is a well documented goofy, out there in a clean cut way (eg obsesses about food choices) but genuinely nice kid who loves basketball and works hard at it. It is easy for people to put it all on JJJ but that is the easy way out. I put it on the entire coaching staff, There needs to be at least one of those guys to take this kid under his wing and show him the way.  Could make a huge difference in our season. At the end that is what I care the most about.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 19, 2015, 07:07:26 PM
If JJJ comes back and has a few good games, does it mean that Wojo was wrong to bench him for an entire game, that we had a legit chance of winning?

I simply don't view benching a guy for a whole game as a mature decision when the player didn't break a team rule, isn't suspended, your team is already short handed, and you lament your team being fatigued.  You can tell the player going into the game, "I didn't like your approach in practice these past few days at all - and as a result I'm going to bench you for the first half - but get out their and kick a$$ in the second half."

Playing head games with players is a very dangerous and slippery slope.  And benching a kid like JJJ midway through conference play is playing mindgames.  So, if JJJ gets to play next game, again, is he not going to be tight as hell going out there afraid to screw up knowing that he got pulled against Creighton, benched the next game against X?  You erode a players confidence when you play mind games and have him on a short leash - it's one thing to screw up making effort and aggressive plays - it's different if your mistakes are those of a lazy variety.

Your assumption in all this is little or no communication between Wojo and JJJ or at least Wojo and the team as a whole. Especially in regards to setting up expectations and consequences. Do you 100% know that your assumptions are fact? Otherwise, your perspective falls apart. As does everyone else here. No one knows what goes on out of the public eye.

Quote from: Texas Western on January 19, 2015, 07:39:15 PM
These are excellent points. I agree wholeheartedly that Wojo's action are playing mindgames. This kid has constantly worked hard and hustled. No one has ever said he hasn't . People on this board are calling him lazy but that is not the case at all.

I see it this way, JJJ was a top 30 in High School because he has some incredible skills driving the ball transition short range floaters etc. He has now been exposed in college, as many have pointed out because of the hitch in his shot. So from 15 feet out he is not a factor. He does have an excellent free throw motion and rate so he is not a lost cause at all. The coaches should be working with and embellishing all the good things he does .  Then work with him to improve ;the other areas of the game. It is up to the coaches to be grown ups and understand all kids are not the same personalities. Yes it is far easier for Wojo to relate to Derrick and it is not just because he is a lunch bucket player. It is because  the way  Derrick comportes himself , he could easily have been a NARP at  Duke with his background (son of military, attended a top 5 prep school etc). Similarly , Duane is very serious, son of a coach. On the other hand JJJ is a well documented goofy, out there in a clean cut way (eg obsesses about food choices) but genuinely nice kid who loves basketball and works hard at it. It is easy for people to put it all on JJJ but that is the easy way out. I put it on the entire coaching staff, There needs to be at least one of those guys to take this kid under his wing and show him the way.  Could make a huge difference in our season. At the end that is what I care the most about.

What has been said is that Wojo didn't like the practice JJJ had leading up to the game. We don't know exactly what that means. But isn't that enough?

Quote from: Texas Western on January 19, 2015, 07:39:15 PM


I see it this way, JJJ was a top 30 in High School because he has some incredible skills driving the ball transition short range floaters etc. He has now been exposed in college, as many have pointed out because of the hitch in his shot. So from 15 feet out he is not a factor. He does have an excellent free throw motion and rate so he is not a lost cause at all. The coaches should be working with and embellishing all the good things he does .  Then work with him to improve ;the other areas of the game. It is up to the coaches to be grown ups and understand all kids are not the same personalities. Yes it is far easier for Wojo to relate to Derrick and it is not just because he is a lunch bucket player. It is because  the way  Derrick comportes himself , he could easily have been a NARP at  Duke with his background (son of military, attended a top 5 prep school etc). Similarly , Duane is very serious, son of a coach. On the other hand JJJ is a well documented goofy, out there in a clean cut way (eg obsesses about food choices) but genuinely nice kid who loves basketball and works hard at it. It is easy for people to put it all on JJJ but that is the easy way out. I put it on the entire coaching staff, There needs to be at least one of those guys to take this kid under his wing and show him the way.  Could make a huge difference in our season. At the end that is what I care the most about.

I see it this way. High school is over. His high school ranking (which you overstate, but no matter) is now beside the point. He was getting big minutes in conference games even though he was playing poorly - basically an abysmal shooting turnover machine. Then one of the first things he does upon entering the Creighton game is throw up a contested brick of a three early in the shot clock. Last year Ners probably stated 50 times here that Dawson should play over Derrick because Derrick was 1 for 14 from three. Trust me, 1 of 14 over 32 games hurts a team a lot less than 7 of 40 over 16. Everything (numbers, eye test, coaches, etc.) screams don't shoot from distance unless you're wide open with no time on the shot clock but that doesn't stop JJJ. He wants his so he's jackin' 3s. Well, this isn't high school or AAU ball. Guards who don't take care of the ball and insist on shooting shots they can't make lose minutes. When they sulk about what their crappy play earned them they can lose games, a season or a career. JJJ's MU experience is at a tipping point because he put it there. He can man up and regain the trust that he's squandered with two separate coaching staffs at MU or he can hit the bricks. Hope for the former but it's up to him.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 19, 2015, 08:39:25 PM
I see it this way. High school is over. His high school ranking (which you overstate, but no matter) is now beside the point. He was getting big minutes in conference games even though he was playing poorly - basically an abysmal shooting turnover machine. Then one of the first things he does upon entering the Creighton game is throw up a contested brick of a three early in the shot clock. Last year Ners probably stated 50 times here that Dawson should play over Derrick because Derrick was 1 for 14 from three. Trust me, 1 of 14 over 32 games hurts a team a lot less than 7 of 40 over 16. Everything (numbers, eye test, coaches, etc.) screams don't shoot from distance unless you're wide open with no time on the shot clock but that doesn't stop JJJ. He wants his so he's jackin' 3s. Well, this isn't high school or AAU ball. Guards who don't take care of the ball and insist on shooting shots they can't make lose minutes. When they sulk about what their crappy play earned them they can lose games, a season or a career. JJJ's MU experience is at a tipping point because he put it there. He can man up and regain the trust that he's squandered with two separate coaching staffs at MU or he can hit the bricks. Hope for the former but it's up to him.

We will find out Wednesday night.

Quote from: Texas Western on January 19, 2015, 07:39:15 PM
These are excellent points. I agree wholeheartedly that Wojo's action are playing mindgames. This kid has constantly worked hard and hustled. No one has ever said he hasn't . People on this board are calling him lazy but that is not the case at all.

How do you know he "has constantly worked hard and hustled?"

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 19, 2015, 09:08:43 PMHow do you know he "has constantly worked hard and hustled?"

Because "No one has ever said he hasn't."

Well...except for Wojo. You know...2 days ago.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 19, 2015, 09:08:43 PM

How do you know he "has constantly worked hard and hustled?"

Every game he is hustling is clear for everyone to see. Coaches have consistently said he has worked hard in practice.

Working hard of course does not necessarily mean not making boneheaded plays. Coach said benched because he didn't play good enough in practice. It is obvious by the coaches action the young man is making the same mistakes in practice he is making in games.

Conclusion practice the way the coaches want you to practice. Otherwise we are sunk for the year.
 

Quote from: Texas Western on January 19, 2015, 09:21:45 PM
Every game he is hustling is clear for everyone to see. Coaches have consistently said he has worked hard in practice.

Working hard of course does not necessarily mean not making boneheaded plays. Coach said benched because he didn't play good enough in practice. It is obvious by the coaches action the young man is making the same mistakes in practice he is making in games.

Conclusion practice the way the coaches want you to practice. Otherwise we are sunk for the year.
 

Except for Wojo's comments after the game, you mean.

Quote from: Texas Western on January 19, 2015, 09:21:45 PM
Every game he is hustling is clear for everyone to see. Coaches have consistently said he has worked hard in practice.

Working hard

of course does not necessarily mean not making boneheaded plays. Coach said benched because he didn't play good enough in practice. It is obvious by the coaches action the young man is making the same mistakes in practice he is making in games.

Conclusion practice the way the coaches want you to practice. Otherwise we are sunk for the year.
 

As Willie would say, you see but do not observe. To add a point, you hear but do not listen. The chance that JJJ's effort/attitude in practice (or in general) wasn't the reason for his DNP vs Xavier? Zero.

TW and Ners, you are making things up. I know you think you are supporting JjJ, but your actually painting him to be someone who isn't self aware, pouts when he doesn't get his way, and someone who is unable to communicate. You are also implying that Wojo is bad at his job and plays mindgames with his players. Actually, you aren't implying that, you are directly saying it. You are also belittling the hard work that the other players on the team.

If you have any respect for our team, stop making up stories about things you know nothing about.

That goes for people on the other side of the argument. None of us know (or maybe a very select few who aren't sharing know) what happened in practice that caused Wojo to sit JjJ. It's not fair of us to jump to the conclusion that JjJ is slacking off.

It's one thing to speculate about why a player might have been benched. Its another to say "Wojo is playing mindgames with JjJ" or "JjJ goofed off in practice" when no one here knows jack sh*t. I know I have no idea why JjJ was benched. If someone else here wants to correct me, I'll happily listen.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 19, 2015, 08:39:25 PM
I see it this way. High school is over. His high school ranking (which you overstate, but no matter) is now beside the point. He was getting big minutes in conference games even though he was playing poorly - basically an abysmal shooting turnover machine. Then one of the first things he does upon entering the Creighton game is throw up a contested brick of a three early in the shot clock. Last year Ners probably stated 50 times here that Dawson should play over Derrick because Derrick was 1 for 14 from three. Trust me, 1 of 14 over 32 games hurts a team a lot less than 7 of 40 over 16. Everything (numbers, eye test, coaches, etc.) screams don't shoot from distance unless you're wide open with no time on the shot clock but that doesn't stop JJJ. He wants his so he's jackin' 3s. Well, this isn't high school or AAU ball. Guards who don't take care of the ball and insist on shooting shots they can't make lose minutes. When they sulk about what their crappy play earned them they can lose games, a season or a career. JJJ's MU experience is at a tipping point because he put it there. He can man up and regain the trust that he's squandered with two separate coaching staffs at MU or he can hit the bricks. Hope for the former but it's up to him.

Disagree with most of this Lenny.  Wojo has said he wants guys to be aggressive, take good shots when they present themselves...regardless of where they are at in the shot clock.  A good shot, is a good shot. Don't see JJJ as being a player "trying to get his."   JJJ has shot many "good" 3's that were good looks/shots - unfortunately they aren't going in at a high rate.  Players play even worse when they feel they are one/maybe two missed shots or one turnover away from being yanked.

JJJ shoots well from the FT Line.  Yes he has a quirky form, but that by no means is reflective of not being a good shooter.  It's a confidence thing at this point with JJJ.  And as I said, when you don't know if the coach has your back and will see you through your mistakes/missed shots it makes it harder to perform.

Now I know you and some of the others would rather a guy be a complete non-factor on the floor, and essentially contribute nothing other than not turning the ball over, play extremely safe, not shoot outside of 2 feet generally - yet that type of play/player is NOT winning basketball.  You can't have a team full of passive players. 

I simply want a guy with a much higher upside, and more potential to have a longer leash than a guy who has zero upside/potential.

Upside is good, but production is better. JJJ will get more minutes if he can prove he can capitalize on his potential, not because his high school rating says it exists. I have high hopes for him, but his play of late hasn't warranted more. Hopefully this motivates him to find that next level.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 19, 2015, 10:26:44 PM
TW and Ners, you are making things up. I know you think you are supporting JjJ, but your actually painting him to be someone who isn't self aware, pouts when he doesn't get his way, and someone who is unable to communicate. You are also implying that Wojo is bad at his job and plays mindgames with his players. Actually, you aren't implying that, you are directly saying it. You are also belittling the hard work that the other players on the team.

If you have any respect for our team, stop making up stories about things you know nothing about.

That goes for people on the other side of the argument. None of us know (or maybe a very select few who aren't sharing know) what happened in practice that caused Wojo to sit JjJ. It's not fair of us to jump to the conclusion that JjJ is slacking off.

It's one thing to speculate about why a player might have been benched. Its another to say "Wojo is playing mindgames with JjJ" or "JjJ goofed off in practice" when no one here knows jack sh*t. I know I have no idea why JjJ was benched. If someone else here wants to correct me, I'll happily listen.

I was reading this thread swearing to myself the exact same thing until I came across this post.  Thank you.  As for the rest of you....

Quote from: jsglow on January 20, 2015, 07:22:00 AM
I was reading this thread swearing to myself the exact same thing until I came across this post.  Thank you.  As for the rest of you....

I also was thinking this as I read through this thread.  Are we to believe JjJ is that much of a pu$$y that he's now going to transfer over being benched one game?  Because of something he did in practice?  I don't know JjJ (other than what I see during games) but I would guess the opposite.  I think JjJ takes this opportunity to bust his ass in every practice from here on and he gets rewarded. Mind game by WOJO? No, just a kick in the ass to tell JjJ and the rest of the team that everyone is treated equally and everyone better bring it everyday.  I'm going to guess that JjJ hasn't put his tail between his legs and started looking for a place to transfer and instead has taken the opposite approach, showing WOJO and everyone else how hard of a worker he'll be for the rest of the season.  As a result, he get's back in the rotation.  If I'm wrong, we'll play 7.

Quote from: Texas Western on January 19, 2015, 09:21:45 PM
Every game he is hustling is clear for everyone to see. Coaches have consistently said he has worked hard in practice.

Working hard of course does not necessarily mean not making boneheaded plays. Coach said benched because he didn't play good enough in practice. It is obvious by the coaches action the young man is making the same mistakes in practice he is making in games.

Conclusion practice the way the coaches want you to practice. Otherwise we are sunk for the year.

I agree with your conclusion.  Isn't that what we are talking about here?

Why do we have to construct yet more false narratives about Duane being "buttoned down" and JJJ being "happy go lucky," and since Wojo is more like Duane he gets more playing time.

Both statistically, and dare I say the vaunted "eye test," Duane seems like the better player.  And if Duane practices harder, I can see why he gets more playing time than JJJ.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 20, 2015, 08:27:49 AM

I agree with your conclusion.  Isn't that what we are talking about here?

Why do we have to construct yet more false narratives about Duane being "buttoned down" and JJJ being "happy go lucky," and since Wojo is more like Duane he gets more playing time.

Both statistically, and dare I say the vaunted "eye test," Duane seems like the better player.  And if Duane practices harder, I can see why he gets more playing time than JJJ.

It's also a false narrative to suggest Duane practices harder.  What isn't false is body language.  Everyone and their mother knows Wojo was a spaz on the court, and a portrait of intensity.  Have you never heard the expression "this team is a reflection of its head coach?"  It isn't absurd in any way, shape or form to think Wojo has/will have a hard time connecting with more laid back and happy go lucky types - JJJ, Burton, Dawson - while connecting well/preferring more serious/hardcore types - Duane.

With 3 open scholarships, and possibly a 4th given the Nick situation, really not sure it is wise for Wojo to being playing mind games with one of his most talented underclassmen.  Soon it could be 5 open scholarships.  Trust the process?? 

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 08:48:05 AM
It's also a false narrative to suggest Duane practices harder. 

It is?  How come he hasn't been suspended then?

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 08:48:05 AM
It's also a false narrative to suggest Duane practices harder.  What isn't false is body language.  Everyone and their mother knows Wojo was a spaz on the court, and a portrait of intensity.  Have you never heard the expression "this team is a reflection of its head coach?"  It isn't absurd in any way, shape or form to think Wojo has/will have a hard time connecting with more laid back and happy go lucky types - JJJ, Burton, Dawson - while connecting well/preferring more serious/hardcore types - Duane.

I don't think Duane is anything like Wojo was on the court.  Would you call him a "spaz" and a "portrait of intensity?"  He actually seems pretty non-plussed out there.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 08:48:05 AM
With 3 open scholarships, and possibly a 4th given the Nick situation, really not sure it is wise for Wojo to being playing mind games with one of his most talented underclassmen.  Soon it could be 5 open scholarships.  Trust the process?? 

He's not playing "mind-games."  As others have pointed out, it seems very straight-forward why JJJ sat last game. 

And he shouldn't set the bar lower just to make him happy.  That is when you get into trouble.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 20, 2015, 09:01:00 AM
 

And he shouldn't set the bar lower just to make him happy.  That is when you get into trouble.

See: Mayo, Todd.   

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 19, 2015, 10:26:44 PM


That goes for people on the other side of the argument. None of us know (or maybe a very select few who aren't sharing know) what happened in practice that caused Wojo to sit JjJ. It's not fair of us to jump to the conclusion that JjJ is slacking off.

It's one thing to speculate about why a player might have been benched. Its another to say "Wojo is playing mindgames with JjJ" or "JjJ goofed off in practice" when no one here knows jack sh*t. I know I have no idea why JjJ was benched. If someone else here wants to correct me, I'll happily listen.

Wojo said JJJ wasn't "bringin' it" every day at practice. He said that's unacceptable. And results in being benched. So if you listened you know exactly why he was benched. Do you want a list of stuff? That's not gonna happen. His effort/attitude wasn't where it needed to be. If it changes, he plays. If not, he sits. Simple.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 20, 2015, 12:01:06 AM
Upside is good, but production is better. JJJ will get more minutes if he can prove he can capitalize on his potential, not because his high school rating says it exists. I have high hopes for him, but his play of late hasn't warranted more. Hopefully this motivates him to find that next level.

Who should play more?  Who's production is better?  Personally I like the guy that scores twice as much over 40 minutes, assists at the same rate, rebounds at a higher rate, steals the ball at a higher rate, blocks shots at a higher rate, shoots FTs significantly better, blocks shots at a higher rate....and not to mention is simply a much better athlete and much longer and only a sophomore.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=3-jajuan-johnson&p1=derrick-wilson

Bottom line:

Either you take our first-year coach at his word ... or you think that he is a lying, mind-flucking jerk.

I choose to take Wojo at his word. Maybe that means I am a dupe. But it is a hell of a lot better for my psyche and my Warrior fandom than inventing narratives, speculating wildly and being hyper-cynical.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 09:40:19 AM
Who should play more?  Who's production is better?  Personally I like the guy that scores twice as much over 40 minutes, assists at the same rate, rebounds at a higher rate, steals the ball at a higher rate, blocks shots at a higher rate, shoots FTs significantly better, blocks shots at a higher rate....and not to mention is simply a much better athlete and much longer and only a sophomore.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=3-jajuan-johnson&p1=derrick-wilson

Really?  You are comparing JJJ to Derrick?  They play different positions and different roles on the team.

Regardless, Derrick is better than JJJ right now.  Look at their OR.  Look at JJJ's turnovers.  Hell, look at their shooting percentages!!  When did you think that you could ever say that about Derrick compared to another guard.

Give it up man. 

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 20, 2015, 09:52:48 AM

Really?  You are comparing JJJ to Derrick?  They play different positions and different roles on the team.

Regardless, Derrick is better than JJJ right now.  Look at their OR.  Look at JJJ's turnovers.  Hell, look at their shooting percentages!!  When did you think that you could ever say that about Derrick compared to another guard.

Give it up man. 

They both are guards.  With Duane and Carlino on the floor, you have capable ball handlers.  Period.  I look at the players side by side and see one guy who would score twice the points per 40 minutes, on 2% worse shooting from the field, yet when you factor all shooting percentages (True Shooting percentage) JJJ shoots it better than does Derrick.  JJJ is used twice as much in the way of Possession Percentage, is a much more aggressive player, which will result in more turnovers.

I'm not hating on Derrick here by any means.  He's improved much over last year.  Simply pointing out that when you look at JJJ side by side to either Derrick or Duane - you can make a very good and reasonable case for JJJ deserving more minutes.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 09:40:19 AM
Who should play more?  Who's production is better?  Personally I like the guy that scores twice as much over 40 minutes, assists at the same rate, rebounds at a higher rate, steals the ball at a higher rate, blocks shots at a higher rate, shoots FTs significantly better, blocks shots at a higher rate....and not to mention is simply a much better athlete and much longer and only a sophomore.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=3-jajuan-johnson&p1=derrick-wilson

And there it is. Holy crap. A month away and nothing changed. Guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 10:00:43 AM
They both are guards.  With Duane and Carlino on the floor, you have capable ball handlers.  Period.  I look at the players side by side and see one guy who would score twice the points per 40 minutes, on 2% worse shooting from the field, yet when you factor all shooting percentages (True Shooting percentage) JJJ shoots it better than does Derrick.  JJJ is used twice as much in the way of Possession Percentage, is a much more aggressive player, which will result in more turnovers.

IOW, "I like statistics when they reinforce my narrative.  If they don't, I either come up with reasons why, or a just fall back on the eye-test."

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 10:00:43 AM
They both are guards.  With Duane and Carlino on the floor, you have capable ball handlers.  Period.  I look at the players side by side and see one guy who would score twice the points per 40 minutes, on 2% worse shooting from the field, yet when you factor all shooting percentages (True Shooting percentage) JJJ shoots it better than does Derrick.  JJJ is used twice as much in the way of Possession Percentage, is a much more aggressive player, which will result in more turnovers.

I'm not hating on Derrick here by any means.  He's improved much over last year.  Simply pointing out that when you look at JJJ side by side to either Derrick or Duane - you can make a very good and reasonable case for JJJ deserving more minutes.

Not sure where you're getting your numbers from but...

TS% (Season)
JJJ: 49.0%
Derrick: 48.8%
Duane: 52.7%

TS% (Conf)
JJJ: 35.9%
Derrick: 57.2%
Duane: 49.5%

Sorry to steal your comic Merritt, but I figured it would apply here too.  I think it's unfair for teachers to play mind games with students.

(http://www.kushari.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Grades_Cartoon.jpg)

Derrick:  530 minutes:   3pt % .304   FG % .446, TO's 20   (1 every 26.5 minutes)
JaJuan:  345 minutes:   3pt % .175    FG % .426, TO's 30   (1 every 11.5 minutes)

Aren't stats fun?

Yup, Jajuan has more steals, blocks and rebounds.  Total, not just per minute.  He is taller and playing at the top of the zone, after all.     He shoots free throws better.    He is a wing who's job it is to score, play disruptive defense, get out and run.    Derrick's job is to wrestle with much bigger players down low, run the offense, protect the ball.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 09:40:19 AM
Who should play more?  Who's production is better?  Personally I like the guy that scores twice as much over 40 minutes, assists at the same rate, rebounds at a higher rate, steals the ball at a higher rate, blocks shots at a higher rate, shoots FTs significantly better, blocks shots at a higher rate....and not to mention is simply a much better athlete and much longer and only a sophomore.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=3-jajuan-johnson&p1=derrick-wilson

So, the real issue is that you would rather see JJJ play than Derrick?

And all the usual suspects align in disagreement of course.  So predictable.  Can't even look at the data objectively.

And sorry Merritt - I was looking at season stats when comparing - a 16 game sample size seems more relevant than in JJJ's case 4 conference games played.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on January 20, 2015, 10:55:41 AM
So, the real issue is that you would rather see JJJ play than Derrick?

You know that Michael Mache kid?  He hasn't turned the ball over once since being named to the team!  And you know what?  He hasn't played for the last *two* games!  Why is Wojo screwing around with his head?

At what point do you sit Derrick, who is a senior, and let the Mache play?  Derrick's not getting any better and Mache is only a junior!

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 10:59:02 AM
And all the usual suspects align in disagreement of course.  So predictable.  Can't even look at the data objectively.

I looked at the data objectively.  You ignored my point about OR.  You explained away my point about turnovers.  Who isn't being objective here?

I am looking at the data objectively.   A year ago, off of a limited sample size, you extrapolated that JD's stats were better than Derrick's and developed a religion that said that JD deserves more minutes.   This year, it is a much more mixed bag of statistics that slightly favors Derrick over JaJuan and your argument is that JaJuan deserves more minutes.   In other words, your argument is that regardless of the statistics, everybody deserves more minutes than Derrick.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on January 20, 2015, 10:55:41 AM
So, the real issue is that you would rather see JJJ play than Derrick?

The whole debate has been about what JJJ "deserves."  The length of his "leash."  "Potential versus Production."

I'm simply pointing out that there is a reasonable case that can be made for JJJ playing more minutes, and that neither Duane nor Derrick are significantly outperforming him by any stretch of the imagination.

Derrick has been better.  Nobody denies that.  I still know that like many, we aren't going to be a winning team with Derrick playing 35 minutes a game.  We now have both Duane and Carilno as other options, so the argument made last season "Buzz didn't have a better option" is moot.  I would prefer a guy with more potential, that would give us roughly 7.5 points more per 40 minutes, that is only a sophomore to get more playing time on a team that isn't going anywhere in its current form other than perhaps the NIT.

I have to laugh when Ners defends JJJ launching early in the shot clock contested 3s as something Wojo wants. Really? A SHOOTING guard whose form is atrocious and is 1-13 vs non conference non cupcakes (OSU, MSU, ASU, UW, Tenn and GT) and 0-10 in the Big East from 3 (1-23 total, a whopping 4.3%) is a guy he wants shooting early contested 3s? Those are "good shots"? Because he's "talented"? He has the talent to score at the rim. And his midrange game isn't bad. He can draw fouls and shoot free throws. But a guy who insists on being a volume shooter (5.4 threes per 40 minutes) and only makes one in a blue moon against any real competition hurts his team big time.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 20, 2015, 11:02:07 AM

I looked at the data objectively.  You ignored my point about OR.  You explained away my point about turnovers.  Who isn't being objective here?

Turnovers are your whole argument...and they play a huge factor in calculating O-Rating.  Derrick is good with the ball - that also is partially due to the fact that he rarely is aggressive, is "used" in half the possessions that a player like JJJ is, and per Pomroy, once again is classified as a "Limited Role" player, yet plays the most minutes on the team.

You fail to understand how a player that is so incredibly passive hurts the whole team.  Much like Green Bay lost against Seattle due to being passive - it's never a winning formula.  Give me aggression and playmaking all day, every day on a basketball court - even at the expense of some turnovers.  You can't get something for nothing.  And our record last year, and once again this year bears out this reality.  The mentality has been one of playing not to lose - fearing the potential outcomes of some turnovers/mistakes, versus the potential upside gained from more aggressive, playmaking players.  JJJ, Burton, Mayo, Dawson, etc.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 11:05:17 AM
The whole debate has been about what JJJ "deserves."  The length of his "leash."  "Potential versus Production."

I'm simply pointing out that there is a reasonable case that can be made for JJJ playing more minutes, and that neither Duane nor Derrick are significantly outperforming him by any stretch of the imagination.

Derrick has been better.  Nobody denies that.  I still know that like many, we aren't going to be a winning team with Derrick playing 35 minutes a game.  We now have both Duane and Carilno as other options, so the argument made last season "Buzz didn't have a better option" is moot.  I would prefer a guy with more potential, that would give us roughly 7.5 points more per 40 minutes, that is only a sophomore to get more playing time on a team that isn't going anywhere in its current form other than perhaps the NIT.

The sooner you accept this season for what it is* rather than the alternate reality you have created**, the sooner you will be able to stop posting these "solutions" that only you are capable of seeing.  

* A year with only 8 scholarship players, most of whom have never meaningfully contributed at the college level, is not destined to be a great year.  In other words, a year where the NIT is actually an accomplishment.

** a magical universe where HS ratings automatically translate into college production

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 20, 2015, 11:15:14 AM
The sooner you accept this season for what it is* rather than the alternate reality you have created**, the sooner you will be able to stop posting these "solutions" that only you are capable of seeing.  

* A year with only 8 scholarship players, most of whom have never meaningfully contributed at the college level, is not destined to be a great year.  In other words, a year where the NIT is actually an accomplishment.

** a magical universe where HS ratings automatically translate into college production

A year that began with 10 scholarship players.  Perhaps 11.  Wojo kicked Todd off team.  8 Top 100 players.  One being a 5th year senior, another a senior, one a junior (Steve, albeit not a good player), and then 4 TOP 60 players as sophomores - Burton, Fischer, JJJ, Duane. And Cohen as a freshman.

Good Lord - talk about having low expectations.  What narrative HAS BEEN CREATED by the usual suspects, is that this year should be a rebuilding year.  There WAS PLENTY of talent on this team when Wojo took over to be an NCAA team..period.

And one more for my "friends" - Many of you guys defended the hell out of Vander as a sophomore.  Keep in mind he's playing on a Sweet 16 caliber team with guys like Jae and DJO. Vander and JJJ as sophomores are basically the exact same player...

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=vander-blue&i=1&p1=3-jajuan-johnson&vander-blue=2011-2012

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 11:05:17 AM
The whole debate has been about what JJJ "deserves."  The length of his "leash."  "Potential versus Production."

Does you eye test tell you he a good shooter in a slump? That even though he's 1-23 (4.3%) versus real teams he should be shooting more 3s? JJJ is a great leaper. He can help us (a weak rebounding team) on the boards. JJJ is a very good slasher. He can score at the rim and at the free throw line if he's willing to do the dirty work. But he is a lousy perimeter player, an abysmal outside shooter with a loose handle. He could be a very, very, very poor man's D Wade if he took it to the hole and rebounded at both ends. Dwyane knew from practice he wasn't much of an outside shooter and until he got better at it he found other ways to score and help his team. For some reason almost two years in that light hasn't gone on for JJJ. Playing him in hopes it does isn't the answer - that hurts the team too much. Time to start playing smarter or not play at all.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 11:05:17 AM
The whole debate has been about what JJJ "deserves."  The length of his "leash."  "Potential versus Production."

I'm simply pointing out that there is a reasonable case that can be made for JJJ playing more minutes, and that neither Duane nor Derrick are significantly outperforming him by any stretch of the imagination.

Derrick has been better.  Nobody denies that.  I still know that like many, we aren't going to be a winning team with Derrick playing 35 minutes a game.  We now have both Duane and Carilno as other options, so the argument made last season "Buzz didn't have a better option" is moot.  I would prefer a guy with more potential, that would give us roughly 7.5 points more per 40 minutes, that is only a sophomore to get more playing time on a team that isn't going anywhere in its current form other than perhaps the NIT.

Again, JJJ wasn't benched because of game production. He was benched because of poor practice(s).

If he has a string of great practices, it's likely his "leash" will get longer. BTW, he's a soph. avg. 21+ min per game. His leash isn't that short.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 11:29:20 AM
And one more for my "friends" - Many of you guys defended the hell out of Vander as a sophomore.  Keep in mind he's playing on a Sweet 16 caliber team with guys like Jae and DJO. Vander and JJJ as sophomores are basically the exact same player...

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=vander-blue&i=1&p1=3-jajuan-johnson&vander-blue=2011-2012

JJJ was benched for poor practice(s)... that's not shown in the stats.

AND, Vander averaged a whopping 4 more minutes per game.

21 vs 25.

Seems like JJJ is getting plenty of run, right?

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 11:12:25 AM
Turnovers are your whole argument...and they play a huge factor in calculating O-Rating.  Derrick is good with the ball - that also is partially due to the fact that he rarely is aggressive, is "used" in half the possessions that a player like JJJ is, and per Pomroy, once again is classified as a "Limited Role" player, yet plays the most minutes on the team.

You fail to understand how a player that is so incredibly passive hurts the whole team.  Much like Green Bay lost against Seattle due to being passive - it's never a winning formula.  Give me aggression and playmaking all day, every day on a basketball court - even at the expense of some turnovers.  You can't get something for nothing.  And our record last year, and once again this year bears out this reality.  The mentality has been one of playing not to lose - fearing the potential outcomes of some turnovers/mistakes, versus the potential upside gained from more aggressive, playmaking players.  JJJ, Burton, Mayo, Dawson, etc.

I think you fail to realize that when the team is out of sorts it is Derrick who pulls the ball out and settles the team down. Will MU win 50 % of its game with Derrick? I am not sure, but I am pretty sure we would be 0-5 in the Big East without Derrick.

I'm really glad I'm not an employee of the Ners' frozen yogurt empire.  Working my butt off conscientiously just to see some slacker get promoted over me because Ners liked him more during the job interview more than two years ago.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 11:23:27 AM
There WAS PLENTY of talent on this team when Wojo took over to be an NCAA team..period.

You really thought going into the season that the team we had at that time should have made the NCAA tournament.   ?-( WOW!  I looked at the same team and figured that with luck they could avoid the BE basement and finish maybe 7th.   NIT at best.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 11:23:27 AM
A year that began with 10 scholarship players.  Perhaps 11.  Wojo kicked Todd off team.  8 Top 100 players.  One being a 5th year senior, another a senior, one a junior (Steve, albeit not a good player), and then 4 TOP 60 players as sophomores - Burton, Fischer, JJJ, Duane. And Cohen as a freshman.

Good Lord - talk about having low expectations.  What narrative HAS BEEN CREATED by the usual suspects, is that this year should be a rebuilding year.  There WAS PLENTY of talent on this team when Wojo took over to be an NCAA team..period.

I responded to this in another thread and you never responded. Here are the 13-14 stats of the team that Wojo inherited.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 18, 2015, 03:05:35 PM
Here's a better way to think about expectations for this team. Let's look at what their 13-14 stats looked like.

PG: Derrick Wilson: 5.0 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.5 tpg, .391 FG%, .071 3P%
SG: Matt Carlino: 13.7 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.7 spg, 2.0 tpg, .385 FG%, .339 3P%
SF: Deonte Burton: 6.9 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 0.5 apg, 1.1 spg, 0.9 tpg, .478 FG%, .500 3P%
PF: Juan Anderson: 3.2 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 1.0 apg, 1.0 spg, 1.0 tpg, .378 FG% .192 3P%
C: Luke Fischer: 2.8 ppg, 2.1 rpg, 0.3 apg, 0.8 bpg, 0.5 tpg, .556 FG%, .000  3P% (not available to December 16)

Bench:
1: Jajuan Johnson: 4.3 ppg, 1.1 rpg, 1.0 apg, 0.4 spg, 0.5 tpg, .443 FG%, .290 3P%
2: Steve Taylor: 2.5 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.4 apg, 0.3 spg, 0.7 tpg, .324 FG%, .154 3P%
3: John Dawson: 2.0 ppg, 1.1 rpg, 1.0 apg, 0.1 spg, 0.7 tpg, .320 FG%, .269 3P%
4: Duane Wilson: No Data Available
5: Sandy Cohen: No Data Available

Team Stats:
40.4 points per game
19.7 rebounds per game
12.7 assist per game
437-1086 .402 FG% Matt Carlino by himself had almost as many attempts (426), as FGM by the entire team (437).
88-295 .298 3P% Matt Carlino had 60 of those 88 makes

Really, what about this lineup's production from the previous season screams that they would be a tournament team this season? The improvement that Wojo has gotten out of each of the players is nothing short of amazing. Some simply had too high of expectations going into the season.

If you have any scrap of basketball knowledge, you would never pick a team that produced the above numbers to be a tournament team. You are continuing this myth you started last season that our players are good, they are just being mistreated and misused by our coach, when that is simply not the case.

Do you really think high school rankings are more relevant than the player's production from the previous season?

Don't forget the part about defense.   A year ago, Buzz said (and was pilloried for saying)that STjr, Deonte, JD, JJJ didn't play more because they did not play defense to his standards.   This year, that was borne out by the fact that their man defense was so collectively bad that Wojo had to abandon a lifetime of man to man defense and play zone. 

Or the bit about, prior to Luke becoming eligible, no one on the team taller than 6'7.   

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 11:29:20 AM
And one more for my "friends" - Many of you guys defended the hell out of Vander as a sophomore.  Keep in mind he's playing on a Sweet 16 caliber team with guys like Jae and DJO. Vander and JJJ as sophomores are basically the exact same player...

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=vander-blue&i=1&p1=3-jajuan-johnson&vander-blue=2011-2012

One big difference I noticed. Vander was a poor (25.8%) three point shooter and realized it. He took about one every 30 minutes. JJJ is a much worse three point shooter (17.5% total, 4.3% vs non cupcakes) yet launches them 3 and a half times as often (1 every 8.6 minutes). That's dumb in addition to being bad - a combination that results in bench time.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 08:48:05 AM
With 3 open scholarships, and possibly a 4th given the Nick situation, really not sure it is wise for Wojo to being playing mind games with one of his most talented underclassmen.  Soon it could be 5 open scholarships.  Trust the process?? 

Ners, again you are lying and make sh*t up. Do you talk with Wojo regularly? Has he told you what kind of conversations he is having with JjJ? Do you observe practices? Are you BFFs with JjJ and texting him regularly about all of the injustice's Wojo is committing?

I know you desperately want this to be true. Because if it was, it would mean we have a chance to start winning again. But it is not. It is a fiction. Check out my signature, it might help.

Quote from: LittleWade on January 20, 2015, 11:45:07 AM
I'm really glad I'm not an employee of the Ners' frozen yogurt empire.  Working my butt off conscientiously just to see some slacker get promoted over me because Ners liked him more during the job interview more than two years ago.

Amazing analogy!

Quote from: NotAnAlum on January 20, 2015, 11:50:54 AM
You really thought going into the season that the team we had at that time should have made the NCAA tournament.   ?-( WOW!  I looked at the same team and figured that with luck they could avoid the BE basement and finish maybe 7th.   NIT at best.

Considering we are a just a few colossal meltdowns away from being 4-1 in the Big East WITHOUT Todd Mayo and Denote Burton - 2 guys I figured would be our leading scorers - yes, I felt we had legit NCAA prospects.

If you don't expect 4 consensus Top 60 high school players to take a major leap in their sophomore year in a program - Fischer, Duane, Burton, JJJ - then the perhaps you need to look at the coaching staff as to their ability to develop players.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on January 20, 2015, 11:35:50 AM
Again, JJJ wasn't benched because of game production. He was benched because of poor practice(s).

If he has a string of great practices, it's likely his "leash" will get longer. BTW, he's a soph. avg. 21+ min per game. His leash isn't that short.

Context - On a team with 8 scholarship players...and one of whom is a freshman.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 12:30:18 PM
Context - On a team with 8 scholarship players...and one of whom is a freshman.

Dear God, last year you needed at least 10 minutes to get into the flow of the game. Now 21 isn't good enough.

JjJ is the first kid off the bench. Based of his production, that's about where he should be. Even you have admitted that. 21 minutes a game is a ton of playing time for a kid who comes off the bench. A lot of starters on other teams don't get that much playing time. If you really think playing your 6th or 7th best player for 21 minutes a game is "mind games" you have a very warped view of reality.

Quote from: LittleWade on January 20, 2015, 11:45:07 AM
I'm really glad I'm not an employee of the Ners' frozen yogurt empire.  Working my butt off conscientiously just to see some slacker get promoted over me because Ners liked him more during the job interview more than two years ago.

A comical, yet sadly true analogy.

Quote from: LittleWade on January 20, 2015, 11:45:07 AM
I'm really glad I'm not an employee of the Ners' frozen yogurt empire.  Working my butt off conscientiously just to see some slacker get promoted over me because Ners liked him more during the job interview more than two years ago.

If only he had given you a longer run before allowing you to go on break!

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 20, 2015, 12:37:15 PM
Dear God, last year you needed at least 10 minutes to get into the flow of the game. Now 21 isn't good enough.

JjJ is the first kid off the bench. Based of his production, that's about where he should be. Even you have admitted that. 21 minutes a game is a ton of playing time for a kid who comes off the bench. A lot of starters on other teams don't get that much playing time. If you really think playing your 6th or 7th best player for 21 minutes a game is "mind games" you have a very warped view of reality.

Stop being a clown. The mind games comment was made solely and only due to the benching against Xavier.  That's exactly what that tactic is - trying to send a player a message.  It will go one of two ways:  Message heard loud and clear and JJJ responds in the way Wojo wants - and in so doing JJJ gets more playing time.  Or, it alienates the kid, causes him to lose respect for his coach, and ultimately check out - much like JJJ did last year.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 12:43:46 PM
Stop being a clown. The mind games comment was made solely and only due to the benching against Xavier.  That's exactly what that tactic is - trying to send a player a message.  It will go one of two ways:  Message heard loud and clear and JJJ responds in the way Wojo wants - and in so doing JJJ gets more playing time.  Or, it alienates the kid, causes him to lose respect for his coach, and ultimately check out - much like JJJ did last year.

And which type of player would you prefer to have on YOUR team?

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 12:43:46 PM
Stop being a clown. The mind games comment was made solely and only due to the benching against Xavier.  That's exactly what that tactic is - trying to send a player a message.  It will go one of two ways:  Message heard loud and clear and JJJ responds in the way Wojo wants - and in so doing JJJ gets more playing time.  Or, it alienates the kid, causes him to lose respect for his coach, and ultimately check out - much like JJJ did last year.

Why would we want a player who repeatedly loses respect for coaches and checks out on the team?  Because of his high school ranking?

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 12:43:46 PM
Stop being a clown. The mind games comment was made solely and only due to the benching against Xavier.  That's exactly what that tactic is - trying to send a player a message.  It will go one of two ways:  Message heard loud and clear and JJJ responds in the way Wojo wants - and in so doing JJJ gets more playing time.  Or, it alienates the kid, causes him to lose respect for his coach, and ultimately check out - much like JJJ did last year.

If it's the latter that would make two consecutive years with two different coaches that JJJ checks out.  Is that really someone that deserves to be on the Marquette's basketball team?

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 20, 2015, 12:47:31 PM
And which type of player would you prefer to have on YOUR team?

Obviously the first type.  Yet, as are all relationships - the player/coach relationship is a two-way street.  If a player begins to sense things aren't fair as far as how the coach is allocating playing time - it breeds discontent.  

Furthermore, I wouldn't take a ridiculous measure to bench a kid for a whole game because "I didn't like the way he practiced."  I'd call the kid into my office after practice - and if it was clear he was half assing it, goofing off - I'd ask him what's going on.  Open the dialogue.  This would be even more important to me if I'd just had two players essentially quit on me/transfer.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 12:58:58 PM
Obviously the first type.  Yet, as are all relationships - the player/coach relationship is a two-way street.  If a player begins to sense things aren't fair as far as how the coach is allocating playing time - it breeds discontent. 

Furthermore, I wouldn't take a ridiculous measure to bench a kid for a whole game because "I didn't like the way he practiced."  I'd call the kid into my office after practice - and if it was clear he was half assing it, goofing off - I'd ask him what's going on.  Open the dialogue.  This would be even more important to me if I'd just had two players essentially quit on me/transfer.

Why are you assuming this didn't happen?

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 20, 2015, 12:51:22 PM

Why would we want a player who repeatedly loses respect for coaches and checks out on the team?  Because of his high school ranking?

Maybe the better question is why do we want a coach who loses the respect of his players?  Buzz lost Jamil, Gardner, JJJ, Steve last year...and to a small extent Burton and Dawson.

This year, Wojo has lost Burton, Dawson, and is now engaging in a dicey area with JJJ.  We have 3 open scholarships.  If JJJ leaves, that's 4.  Trusting that process?

What you and the other usual suspects here continue to do is only see things from the coaches perspective - perhaps largely, because you've never been a player at gasp - even the high school level.

Texas Western has 2 kids that are D-1 Athletes - think he has a little bit more insight and understanding into the dynamics on the player side of the equation?

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 12:43:46 PM
Stop being a clown. The mind games comment was made solely and only due to the benching against Xavier.  That's exactly what that tactic is - trying to send a player a message.  It will go one of two ways:  Message heard loud and clear and JJJ responds in the way Wojo wants - and in so doing JJJ gets more playing time.  Or, it alienates the kid, causes him to lose respect for his coach, and ultimately check out - much like JJJ did last year.

There's only one clown here, and you're the one wearing the bright red nose. You say to look at the data objectively, but you ignore that Jajuan has been poor against quality opponents. In conference play he's shooting 9/31 (0/10 from 3). He has 10 turnovers in 74 minutes.

You dismiss turnovers, but his numbers are bad. It's not just that he has multiple turnovers in 10/16 games he's played, he's also had multiple turnovers every time he played more than 20 minutes.

Jajuan could be a great player here, but the simple truth is he's not yet. His shooting is poor, his turnovers are high, and while his defense has definitely improved, he still has his struggles. And now from the coach's own mouth, he hasn't given everything he has in practice.

We all hope this is a turning point for him. We hope this is a motivation that gets him to play more like he did against ASU and less like he has since conference play started.

Of course...let's be honest. This isn't about Jajuan. This isn't about Jajuan at all. Just like last year it wasn't about Dawson and earlier this year it wasn't about Burton. It's all about your pathetic hatred of Derrick. You just can't let it go, and you can't enjoy Marquette basketball as long as he's here, so you whine and moan about everything else while really just looking for ways to discredit a kid who has come tremendously far this year and who, honestly, I would trust a HELL of a lot more shooting the ball from three with the game on the line than Jajuan, and considering his track record, that says a ton.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 01:04:02 PM
Texas Western has 2 kids that are D-1 Athletes - think he has a little bit more insight and understanding into the dynamics on the player side of the equation?

Unless one of them is on Marquette's men's basketball team, then no, not really.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 20, 2015, 01:00:10 PM

Why are you assuming this didn't happen?

If it did happen, sure as sh$t you can bet Wojo would have said as much in his presser when asked multiple times about it.  Answer would have gone:  "I told JuJuan that I didn't like his approach in practice the last two days, and as a result he wasn't going to play against Xavier."  

Furthermore, if a conversation did happen immediately after practice - a more mature approach by the coach would be to come to an understanding with the player, let them know that if they see it again, sense it again, it will result in a game benching.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 01:08:27 PMIf it did happen, sure as sh$t you can bet Wojo would have said as much in his presser when asked multiple times about it.  Answer would have gone:  "I told JuJuan that I didn't like his approach in practice the last two days, and as a result he wasn't going to play against Xavier."  

Furthermore, if a conversation did happen immediately after practice - a more mature approach by the coach would be to come to an understanding with the player, let them know that if they see it again, sense it again, it will result in a game benching.

You have no clue. Absolutely no clue what Wojo may or may not have said to Jajuan. You have no idea how long this issue that resulted in a suspension has gone on. You have no idea if the exact conversation hadn't already happened, or happened multiple times over the past few weeks.

Wojo was clear. Practice effort wasn't enough to convince him Jajuan was ready to play. Might there have been more to it? Yes. Probably was. But you are putting your words and assumptions into the coach's mouth. He was straight forward, yet for some reason you can't accept that in order to further your anti-Derrick agenda that you've been spewing for 2 years now.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 01:08:27 PM
If it did happen, sure as sh$t you can bet Wojo would have said as much in his presser when asked multiple times about it.  Answer would have gone:  "I told JuJuan that I didn't like his approach in practice the last two days, and as a result he wasn't going to play against Xavier."  

Furthermore, if a conversation did happen immediately after practice - a more mature approach by the coach would be to come to an understanding with the player, let them know that if they see it again, sense it again, it will result in a game benching.

Maybe he talked to him multiple times and couldn't get through to him, so he benched him. You have no idea what happened, neither do the rest of us, but you're the only one stating your opinions as facts.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 20, 2015, 01:06:22 PM
There's only one clown here, and you're the one wearing the bright red nose. You say to look at the data objectively, but you ignore that Jajuan has been poor against quality opponents. In conference play he's shooting 9/31 (0/10 from 3). He has 10 turnovers in 74 minutes.

You dismiss turnovers, but his numbers are bad. It's not just that he has multiple turnovers in 10/16 games he's played, he's also had multiple turnovers every time he played more than 20 minutes.

Jajuan could be a great player here, but the simple truth is he's not yet. His shooting is poor, his turnovers are high, and while his defense has definitely improved, he still has his struggles. And now from the coach's own mouth, he hasn't given everything he has in practice.

We all hope this is a turning point for him. We hope this is a motivation that gets him to play more like he did against ASU and less like he has since conference play started.

Of course...let's be honest. This isn't about Jajuan. This isn't about Jajuan at all. Just like last year it wasn't about Dawson and earlier this year it wasn't about Burton. It's all about your pathetic hatred of Derrick. You just can't let it go, and you can't enjoy Marquette basketball as long as he's here, so you whine and moan about everything else while really just looking for ways to discredit a kid who has come tremendously far this year and who, honestly, I would trust a HELL of a lot more shooting the ball from three with the game on the line than Jajuan, and considering his track record, that says a ton.

LOL - Read my signature Brew if you want a refresher on "clown" takes.  No, this isn't about Derrick - it's about JJJ getting benched for a game.  It's about JJJ being a very talented player - very similar to a guy you loved - Vander Blue, once again perhaps becoming disenchanted with Marquette.  It's about having 3 open scholarships already, a dicey situation now with Nick N, and not wanting to lose another talented player as we did in Burton.

And comically, you cite numbers on JJJ this year that point toward him having no business playing much, yet in reality all of last season you championed the merits and value of Derrick?  Come on man. And btw - Derrick is of course better this year - as you simply aren't going to get any worse than last season.  However, he's averaging 1.8 Turnovers per game in conference play.  And let's keep in mind, Pomeroy classifies him as being a Limited Role player, based on usage - so again, he isn't going to have a high propensity to turn the ball over, because rarely is he used on the offensive end of the floor.

That isn't me hating on Derrick either - it's calling it as it is.  I can live with Derrick playing 20-25 minutes per game as he's been performing.  Derrick is averaging 34.8 minutes in conference play.  

Quote from: MUEagle1090 on January 20, 2015, 01:15:14 PM
Maybe he talked to him multiple times and couldn't get through to him, so he benched him. You have no idea what happened, neither do the rest of us, but you're the only one stating your opinions as facts.

Fair point.  However, do you not think Wojo would have made mention of having had a talk/talks with JJJ about his practice habits - when asked why he didn't play - if in fact he did have multiple conversations?

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 01:08:27 PM
If it did happen, sure as sh$t you can bet Wojo would have said as much in his presser when asked multiple times about it.  Answer would have gone:  "I told JuJuan that I didn't like his approach in practice the last two days, and as a result he wasn't going to play against Xavier."  

So because he didn't SAY he had a conversation with JJJ, you are going to ASSUME he didn't?  That is laughably nonsensical.  Man you have come up with some bizarre crap before, but this is the pinnacle of bizarreness.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 01:08:27 PM
Furthermore, if a conversation did happen immediately after practice - a more mature approach by the coach would be to come to an understanding with the player, let them know that if they see it again, sense it again, it will result in a game benching.

Again, you have NO CLUE what happened.  NO CLUE about previous conversations.  Yet you are making assumption after assumption instead of taking Wojo at his word with no evidence to the contrary.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 01:23:42 PM
Fair point.  However, do you not think Wojo would have made mention of having had a talk/talks with JJJ about his practice habits - when asked why he didn't play - if in fact he did have multiple conversations?

Why?  To defend himself from those (such as yourself) who don't take him at his word?

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 12:43:46 PM
Stop being a clown. The mind games comment was made solely and only due to the benching against Xavier.  That's exactly what that tactic is - trying to send a player a message.  It will go one of two ways:  Message heard loud and clear and JJJ responds in the way Wojo wants - and in so doing JJJ gets more playing time.  Or, it alienates the kid, causes him to lose respect for his coach, and ultimately check out - much like JJJ did last year.

Sending a message isn't necessarily "mind games".  It's showing JjJ AND the rest of the team what happens when someone doesn't give everything they have in practice.  I'm not there at practice, nor are you, but my guess is that neither Wojo nor the other assistants at practice, nor his teammates, just let JjJ or any other player, just slack, give a half-assed effort, goof off, etc. without saying something multiple times during practice.  Do you really think practice ended, no one said di@k to JjJ and then he just didn't play?

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 01:23:42 PM
Fair point.  However, do you not think Wojo would have made mention of having had a talk/talks with JJJ about his practice habits - when asked why he didn't play - if in fact he did have multiple conversations?

Absolutely not. I have never met a single coach that would reveal anything more than what Wojo said in his presser. Think about it, if Wojo goes into detail and says something to the effect of "JjJ has had multiple practices where he didn't bring it to a level I was happy with. I have had multiple conversations with him about this and he knew the consequences so I benched him"

That conversation throws JjJ under the bus several times over. As a player, I would be livid if a coach took what was a private conversation and threw it out to the media. It would break my trust in my coach. A good coach shares as little about situations with the media as possible.

But you know this. At least you should. You are inventing stories and narratives, again.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 12:43:46 PM
The mind games comment was made solely and only due to the benching against Xavier.  That's exactly what that tactic is - trying to send a player a message.  It will go one of two ways:  Message heard loud and clear and JJJ responds in the way Wojo wants - and in so doing JJJ gets more playing time.  Or, it alienates the kid, causes him to lose respect for his coach, and ultimately check out - much like JJJ did last year.

Ok, so what we have is an argument of definitions. To me, a mind game would be benching a kid, who doesn't deserve it, for no reason. An argument could even be for benching a kid who deserves but not telling him why he deserves it, could be a mind game.

Benching a kid who deserves it, and telling him why he is benched, is not a mind game. It is sending a message. But more than anything it is holding a player accountable which is ALWAYS a good thing.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 12:30:18 PM
Context - On a team with 8 scholarship players...and one of whom is a freshman.

Totally fair.

How many minutes do you think JJJ should get?

If he continues to be bad (in conf. he's been bad), how long would you stick with him?

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 12:29:16 PM
If you don't expect 4 consensus Top 60 high school players to take a major leap in their sophomore year in a program - Fischer, Duane, Burton, JJJ - then the perhaps you need to look at the coaching staff as to their ability to develop players.

I do expect them to develop. And guess what, they did! Since Wojo took over every player but two have improved.

Carlino went from a true chucker (.339 3P, .385 FG) to a legitimate playmaker (.421 3P, .406 FG)
Derrick went from a career 5% 3P shooter and 31% FG to .304 3P and .446 FG
Juan went from an embarrassment offensively (3.2 ppg, .378 FG, .192 3P) to legitimate scorer (10.5 ppg, .519 FG%, .435 3P)
Jajuan has increased his scoring (8.4 ppg v. 4.3 ppg), rebounding (2.8 rpg v. 1.1 rpg), assists (1.9 apg v. 1.0 apg) and has been much better defensively, though still not great, except for steals (1.3 spg v. 0.4 spg)
Steve Taylor went from a non-factor to a solid rebounder but still struggles. He is hampered by constantly playing out of position.
Luke went from a no name backup to a legitimate starting center

The only 2 who didn't improve were Deonte and Dawson. Deonte struggled because he played out of position and was dealing with a tragedy off the court. In case you missed it during your absence, an article came out where Burton talked about his transfer. He said it was 100% because of the passing of his mother and needing to get away from the pain in Milwaukee. Dawson should have never played on last year's team, but our lack of depth at PG required it. Since we had plenty of PGs on the roster this year, his services were no longer required.

So 6/8 players improved. Most of those 6 improved dramatically. The 2 who didn't either had significant off the court issues or simply didn't get playing time. Throw in the fact that both freshmen have produced at a higher level than I would have expected, I'd say Wojo and Co. should get some props for their player development. Juan's transformation alone is extremely impressive to me.

Again, this is another false narrative. The real story is that you have unrealistic exceptions for how much improvement you want to see from each player. Not all players can have dramatic improvements like Juan did.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 01:04:02 PM
Maybe the better question is why do we want a coach who loses the respect of his players?  Buzz lost Jamil, Gardner, JJJ, Steve last year...and to a small extent Burton and Dawson.

This year, Wojo has lost Burton, Dawson, and is now engaging in a dicey area with JJJ.  We have 3 open scholarships.  If JJJ leaves, that's 4.  Trusting that process?

What you and the other usual suspects here continue to do is only see things from the coaches perspective - perhaps largely, because you've never been a player at gasp - even the high school level.

Texas Western has 2 kids that are D-1 Athletes - think he has a little bit more insight and understanding into the dynamics on the player side of the equation?

You've stated this multiple times in this thread alone. Do you really believe Wojo "lost" Burton? I'll go along with you with Dawson. But Burton? You really believe there were no other forces at play other than Wojo and his "losing" Burton? Nothing about Burton's family/home life? Or other influences (AAU coach) on Burton? Heck, Burton even stated publicly it was about his personal situation.

Quote from: jesmu84 on January 20, 2015, 03:41:17 PM
You've stated this multiple times in this thread alone. Do you really believe Wojo "lost" Burton? I'll go along with you with Dawson. But Burton? You really believe there were no other forces at play other than Wojo and his "losing" Burton? Nothing about Burton's family/home life? Or other influences (AAU coach) on Burton? Heck, Burton even stated publicly it was about his personal situation.

Wojo was also attempting to do Dawson a favor by sitting him out after that first game in hopes of giving him that semester of ball back. It doesn't seem like there was a lot of bad blood there by any means.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 09:40:19 AM
Who should play more?  Who's production is better?  Personally I like the guy that scores twice as much over 40 minutes, assists at the same rate, rebounds at a higher rate, steals the ball at a higher rate, blocks shots at a higher rate, shoots FTs significantly better, blocks shots at a higher rate....and not to mention is simply a much better athlete and much longer and only a sophomore.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=3-jajuan-johnson&p1=derrick-wilson

Time for another 30 day vacation.  Mods, make it so!

Quote from: TSmith34 on January 20, 2015, 03:56:18 PM
Time for another 30 day vacation.  Mods, make it so!

folks should just stop responding to his drivel.

I'm done arguing with all of you who don't have the first bit of clue as to what it is like from the player perspective.  You clowns defended Buzz up and down all of last season, made excuse after excuse for him, as well as now making excuses for Wojo and how we have no business being an NCAA tournament team, and how he inherited such an awful situation.  Furthermore, you take up beyond belief for a guy who is so incredibly limited at his position at this level, while attacking players that actually have much more skill, potential and ability.

In the view of many of you that have little to no playing experience - the head coach is always right.  Never his fault, right?  

Here's a question:  How many of you are Packer fans?  Any of you have beefs with how McCarthy and Capers coached that game?

Well if you did - Stop, you are being ridiculous, they've forgotten more about football than you'll ever know.  They are paid millions of dollars.  As if that's some type of tonic that absolves them of ever making mistakes?  Please.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 04:30:48 PM
I'm done arguing

(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/f1/f17ff7c5ef2b35e22d4df1d255bdf97bacd5fce6feffa4a0aeafe1cff9e2e39f.jpg)

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 01:20:02 PMLOL - Read my signature Brew if you want a refresher on "clown" takes.  No, this isn't about Derrick - it's about JJJ getting benched for a game.  It's about JJJ being a very talented player - very similar to a guy you loved - Vander Blue, once again perhaps becoming disenchanted with Marquette.  It's about having 3 open scholarships already, a dicey situation now with Nick N, and not wanting to lose another talented player as we did in Burton.

That take remains as true as the day I said it. I'm honored that you believe it so thoroughly that you keep it in your signature line. A testament to highly you hold me in esteem  8-)

JJJ is a talented player, but the comparison to Vander is a poor one for the same reason the comparisons to Derrick are poor. Both Vander and Derrick were always plus defenders. I realize you are completely incapable of realizing that basketball occurs at two ends of the floor.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 01:20:02 PMAnd comically, you cite numbers on JJJ this year that point toward him having no business playing much, yet in reality all of last season you championed the merits and value of Derrick?  Come on man. And btw - Derrick is of course better this year - as you simply aren't going to get any worse than last season.  However, he's averaging 1.8 Turnovers per game in conference play.  And let's keep in mind, Pomeroy classifies him as being a Limited Role player, based on usage - so again, he isn't going to have a high propensity to turn the ball over, because rarely is he used on the offensive end of the floor.

I didn't say no business playing. I think he is getting about the right amount of time. But you are trying to make an apples to oranges comparison (yet again). Not surprisingly, right after you say it's not about Derrick, you write a paragraph about Derrick. Derrick is considered a limited role player because he doesn't shoot a lot. You don't seem to want him to shoot a lot. I fail to see how you have a problem with that.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 01:20:02 PMThat isn't me hating on Derrick either - it's calling it as it is.  I can live with Derrick playing 20-25 minutes per game as he's been performing.  Derrick is averaging 34.8 minutes in conference play.

Again, all about Derrick. The simple truth is you don't get it. You have no ability to watch and understand what's going on in a basketball game. I know you played high school basketball, but apparently you didn't learn anything in the process. You gripe yet again about Derrick's minutes, try to compare him to Dawson, Burton, Johnson, it's all ludicrous.

Above, you complained about my defense of Derrick last year, as though it is somehow relevant. It isn't, and this is why: Last year there was no other option. So far, every professional basketball coach that has been around Derrick and Dawson (the "other option" last year) has determined not only that Derrick is the better player, but that he is so vastly superior that he deserves to play 30+ minutes per game when Dawson is the alternative.

When we talk about Jajuan, that is not the case. Jajuan plays a role that can be filled by Duane, Carlino, and Juan. Once again, no matter how you try to argue otherwise, Jajuan is not competing for minutes with Derrick. He just isn't. He is competing with guys that play at the wing positions. That's not Derrick. And unlike last year with Derrick, there ARE other options. So far, those other options have been better.

Jajuan is still earning minutes. He sat for ONE freaking game. He didn't freak out on Twitter, he hasn't left school, he didn't throw a hissy fit on the bench, he sat for one game. Because Wojo did his job and decided to coach. So why not let the coach do his job rather than throwing all your toys out of the tub because of ONE decision you didn't like? Jesus man, grow up. It's one game. If Jajuan decides to pull a Marcus Marshall and doesn't play another minute at Marquette, then and ONLY then will you have a leg to stand on. Otherwise, please knock it off. You sound like a raving freaking lunatic.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 20, 2015, 03:46:09 PM
Wojo was also attempting to do Dawson a favor by sitting him out after that first game in hopes of giving him that semester of ball back. It doesn't seem like there was a lot of bad blood there by any means.

LOL - Where is everybody jumping down Merritt's throat for a clearly speculative statement that he has NO proof or knowledge of.  Furthermore, the statement is totally and completely false.  I'm sure the Dawson family can attest to this.  And for real?  This is your logic Merritt?  Hey, I'm going to give John Dawson 4 minutes against Tennessee Martin to assess if I want him to remain at the program or encourage a transfer???  He did Dawson a HUGE disservice by playing him those 4 minutes.  If he had John's best interests at heart, and didn't feel he could be a contributor based on what he'd been seeing in practice - why freaking play him 4 minutes???

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 04:30:48 PMI'm done arguing with all of you who don't have the first bit of clue as to what it is like from the player perspective.

You don't have the first bit of clue either. You played sports in high school. I would guess 90% of this board played sports in high school. That's not an accomplishment. Unless you played high-major division I sports, don't pretend you have some knowledge no one else here can understand.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 20, 2015, 04:38:19 PM
You don't have the first bit of clue either. You played sports in high school. I would guess 90% of this board played sports in high school. That's not an accomplishment. Unless you played high-major division I sports, don't pretend you have some knowledge no one else here can understand.

Ners' experience playing high school basketball apparently gives him greater insight into the players' perspective than that of Wojo, Carawell, Nelson and Diener.
I mean, really, what could those guys possibly know about the mindset of a Division I basketball player anyhow?

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 12:29:16 PM
Considering we are a just a few colossal meltdowns away from being 4-1 in the Big East WITHOUT Todd Mayo and Denote Burton - 2 guys I figured would be our leading scorers - yes, I felt we had legit NCAA prospects.

If you don't expect 4 consensus Top 60 high school players to take a major leap in their sophomore year in a program - Fischer, Duane, Burton, JJJ - then the perhaps you need to look at the coaching staff as to their ability to develop players.

We have been in every Big East game. We could be 5-0 and we also could be 0-5 as all the games were reasonably close at the end. However, if we were 5-0 I still would not think we would be a guaranteed NCAA tournament team.

This is bad.  Real bad.

And I only read this last page. 

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 20, 2015, 04:36:02 PM
That take remains as true as the day I said it. I'm honored that you believe it so thoroughly that you keep it in your signature line. A testament to highly you hold me in esteem  8-)

JJJ is a talented player, but the comparison to Vander is a poor one for the same reason the comparisons to Derrick are poor. Both Vander and Derrick were always plus defenders. I realize you are completely incapable of realizing that basketball occurs at two ends of the floor.

I didn't say no business playing. I think he is getting about the right amount of time. But you are trying to make an apples to oranges comparison (yet again). Not surprisingly, right after you say it's not about Derrick, you write a paragraph about Derrick. Derrick is considered a limited role player because he doesn't shoot a lot. You don't seem to want him to shoot a lot. I fail to see how you have a problem with that.

Again, all about Derrick. The simple truth is you don't get it. You have no ability to watch and understand what's going on in a basketball game. I know you played high school basketball, but apparently you didn't learn anything in the process. You gripe yet again about Derrick's minutes, try to compare him to Dawson, Burton, Johnson, it's all ludicrous.

Above, you complained about my defense of Derrick last year, as though it is somehow relevant. It isn't, and this is why: Last year there was no other option. So far, every professional basketball coach that has been around Derrick and Dawson (the "other option" last year) has determined not only that Derrick is the better player, but that he is so vastly superior that he deserves to play 30+ minutes per game when Dawson is the alternative.

When we talk about Jajuan, that is not the case. Jajuan plays a role that can be filled by Duane, Carlino, and Juan. Once again, no matter how you try to argue otherwise, Jajuan is not competing for minutes with Derrick. He just isn't. He is competing with guys that play at the wing positions. That's not Derrick. And unlike last year with Derrick, there ARE other options. So far, those other options have been better.

Jajuan is still earning minutes. He sat for ONE freaking game. He didn't freak out on Twitter, he hasn't left school, he didn't throw a hissy fit on the bench, he sat for one game. Because Wojo did his job and decided to coach. So why not let the coach do his job rather than throwing all your toys out of the tub because of ONE decision you didn't like? Jesus man, grow up. It's one game. If Jajuan decides to pull a Marcus Marshall and doesn't play another minute at Marquette, then and ONLY then will you have a leg to stand on. Otherwise, please knock it off. You sound like a raving freaking lunatic.

LOL - JJJ isn't a "plus" defender in your book?  Okay.  Derrick was a better option for last year's team than Cadougan?  Okay.  You tried to make this about Derrick - and you were complaining about JJJ's stats and citing why he shouldn't be playing much - which for this year, look markedly better than what Derrick offered up last year, yet who was beating the Derrick Wilson drum so loud last season??  See the irony and how that comes full circle?

Who beat Vander Blue's drum so loud?  You.  JJJ looks just like Vander as a sophomore.  And as for JJJ not playing the same "position" as Derrick - well, with Duane Wilson and Matt Carlino starting, you don't HAVE to have Derrick on the floor.  It can just as easily be said Duane Wilson and Matt Carlino play the same position as Derrick.  They all are practically interchangeable.

At the end of the day, once again we'll have another crappy MU basketball season, when it simply didn't have to be one.  But, we can "trust the process."  

Quote from: bilsu on January 20, 2015, 04:53:51 PM
We have been in every Big East game. We could be 5-0 and we also could be 0-5 as all the games were reasonably close at the end. However, if we were 5-0 I still would not think we would be a guaranteed NCAA tournament team.

That's exactly the point - we are that close to being 4-1 even without 2 guys who could/would have been huge contributors - Burton and Mayo.  There was plenty of talent on this team the day Wojo was hired to be an NCAA tourney team.  Period.

People downplaying this year's team, and what a tough situation Wojo inherited are simply not holding him accountable to the reality.  He inherited a very good situation.  Not sure if ever before has an MU coach walked into a program with 4 Top 60 sophomores, and 8 Top 100 players.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 04:55:36 PMLOL - JJJ isn't a "plus" defender in your book?  Okay.  Derrick was a better option for last year's team than Cadougan?  Okay.  You tried to make this about Derrick - and you were complaining about JJJ's stats and citing why he shouldn't be playing much - which for this year, look markedly better than what Derrick offered up last year, yet who was beating the Derrick Wilson drum so loud last season??  See the irony and how that comes full circle?

Why not try reading the quote in your signature. You clearly don't understand it. My argument wasn't whether Derrick was better or worse than Junior, but rather that Junior wouldn't have fixed the problems with last year's team.

And try reading the post you quoted, too. JJJ's stats should be compared to the guys ahead of him. Those guys are Carlino, Duane, and Juan. Derrick is not one of those guys. He is not relevant to the argument. The only irony is how you keep posting things without understanding what they mean.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 04:55:36 PMWho beat Vander Blue's drum so loud?  You.  JJJ looks just like Vander as a sophomore.  And as for JJJ not playing the same "position" as Derrick - well, with Duane Wilson and Matt Carlino starting, you don't HAVE to have Derrick on the floor.  It can just as easily be said Duane Wilson and Matt Carlino play the same position as Derrick.  They all are practically interchangeable.

Vander does not look like JJJ as a sophomore, unless you are only looking at offensive stats. If you can't see how often JJJ overplays steal attempts and gets himself out of position, clearly you don't understand how to watch that end of the floor.

And they are not practically interchangeable. Derrick is always the primary ball handler when he is on the court. Matt and Duane are secondary ball handlers that fill in for Derrick's role when he isn't out there. Jajuan is NEVER the primary ball handler. Matt and Duane compete with Derrick for minutes, but Jajuan does not. However because Matt and Duane flex down to other positions, Jajuan competes with them at the 2/3. If he wants more minutes, he has to beat them, unless he becomes a primary ball handler.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 04:55:36 PMAt the end of the day, once again we'll have another crappy MU basketball season, when it simply didn't have to be one.  But, we can "trust the process."

So why watch? If it's all crappy, if last year was crappy, why do you care? You seem to have such disdain for this coach and this team, I honestly don't get why you invest yourself so heavily. If you can't enjoy it, what is the point?

Seriously. What is the point?

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 20, 2015, 02:23:01 PM
I do expect them to develop. And guess what, they did! Since Wojo took over every player but two have improved.

Carlino went from a true chucker (.339 3P, .385 FG) to a legitimate playmaker (.421 3P, .406 FG)
Derrick went from a career 5% 3P shooter and 31% FG to .304 3P and .446 FG
Juan went from an embarrassment offensively (3.2 ppg, .378 FG, .192 3P) to legitimate scorer (10.5 ppg, .519 FG%, .435 3P)
Jajuan has increased his scoring (8.4 ppg v. 4.3 ppg), rebounding (2.8 rpg v. 1.1 rpg), assists (1.9 apg v. 1.0 apg) and has been much better defensively, though still not great, except for steals (1.3 spg v. 0.4 spg)
Steve Taylor went from a non-factor to a solid rebounder but still struggles. He is hampered by constantly playing out of position.
Luke went from a no name backup to a legitimate starting center

The only 2 who didn't improve were Deonte and Dawson. Deonte struggled because he played out of position and was dealing with a tragedy off the court. In case you missed it during your absence, an article came out where Burton talked about his transfer. He said it was 100% because of the passing of his mother and needing to get away from the pain in Milwaukee. Dawson should have never played on last year's team, but our lack of depth at PG required it. Since we had plenty of PGs on the roster this year, his services were no longer required.

So 6/8 players improved. Most of those 6 improved dramatically. The 2 who didn't either had significant off the court issues or simply didn't get playing time. Throw in the fact that both freshmen have produced at a higher level than I would have expected, I'd say Wojo and Co. should get some props for their player development. Juan's transformation alone is extremely impressive to me.

Again, this is another false narrative. The real story is that you have unrealistic exceptions for how much improvement you want to see from each player. Not all players can have dramatic improvements like Juan did.

Not sure I understand your convoluted meandering argument here. It appears to say that this vast improvement was due to Wojo, but is it possible the kids had something to do with it, or is it possible that it could be due to everybody's hero, the phony cowboy holding those guys back? Oh my, we better not even explore the phony cowboy's involvement here, because he was, after all a savior to the program, and could do no wrong. He was the master at motivation and player development, as well as phony Bu#$s*&t.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 04:30:48 PM
I'm done arguing with all of you who don't have the first bit of clue as to what it is like from the player perspective.  

Reading this, and most of the rest of what you wrote in this thread, makes me think you feel all players should be mollycoddled since they've been stars in high school.  Maybe Wojo should split everyone's playing time equally so no one gets upset.  Then, he could buy them all treats at the end of the game and trophies at the end of the year.

Maybe you pouted and wanted to quit if he coach didn't do everything the way you wanted, but I, for one, think JjJ has more stones than that and will rise to the occasion for every practice and game the rest of the season, thereby earning Wojo's faith and trust in him again as a player. Again, if I'm wrong, then he shouldn't be on the Warriors.  

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 20, 2015, 04:34:58 PM
(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/f1/f17ff7c5ef2b35e22d4df1d255bdf97bacd5fce6feffa4a0aeafe1cff9e2e39f.jpg)

Unfortunately, fool's gold. 

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 04:30:48 PM
I'm done arguing with all of you who don't have the first bit of clue as to what it is like from the player perspective.  You clowns defended Buzz up and down all of last season, made excuse after excuse for him, as well as now making excuses for Wojo and how we have no business being an NCAA tournament team, and how he inherited such an awful situation.  Furthermore, you take up beyond belief for a guy who is so incredibly limited at his position at this level, while attacking players that actually have much more skill, potential and ability.

In the view of many of you that have little to no playing experience - the head coach is always right.  Never his fault, right?  

Here's a question:  How many of you are Packer fans?  Any of you have beefs with how McCarthy and Capers coached that game?

Well if you did - Stop, you are being ridiculous, they've forgotten more about football than you'll ever know.  They are paid millions of dollars.  As if that's some type of tonic that absolves them of ever making mistakes?  Please.

What--Wojo inherited an awful situation? Who left that situation? The phony hero!

Quote from: 79Warrior on January 20, 2015, 04:27:18 PM
folks should just stop responding to his drivel.

Agree.  When he uses "none of you know what it's like to be a player" to rationalize his criticisms of the MU coaching staff - which probably has more high D-1 players than any coaching staff ever assembled - it's clear he has lost all perspective.  Doesn't take a basketball player to see that....

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 20, 2015, 04:34:58 PM
(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/f1/f17ff7c5ef2b35e22d4df1d255bdf97bacd5fce6feffa4a0aeafe1cff9e2e39f.jpg)

Lasted 6 min,  and 24 seconds.

Quote from: willie warrior on January 20, 2015, 05:24:18 PM
Not sure I understand your convoluted meandering argument here. It appears to say that this vast improvement was due to Wojo, but is it possible the kids had something to do with it, or is it possible that it could be due to everybody's hero, the phony cowboy holding those guys back? Oh my, we better not even explore the phony cowboy's involvement here, because he was, after all a savior to the program, and could do no wrong. He was the master at motivation and player development, as well as phony Bu#$s*&t.

Willie,

Please read the post I quoted to get the context before responding. Ners claimed that our players hadn't developed under Wojo. I showed him that they had in fact improved from last season. Of course some of it is on the players. It would be foolish to think it isn't. Almost as foolish as the argument I was countering saying that they hadn't improved at all.

You see but you do not observe   8-)

And Buzz really got to you. You really need to let that one go. It's been almost a year.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 05:00:47 PM
That's exactly the point - we are that close to being 4-1 even without 2 guys who could/would have been huge contributors - Burton and Mayo.

You've brought this up a couple of times. Once again, Mayo and Burton leaving was UNAVOIDABLE. Mayo fooked up real bad over the summer. Even if Wojo had wanted to keep him, he couldn't have. Was not an option. Go straight to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200. For all intents and purposes, Wojo did not inherit Mayo.

Burton has come out publicly and said that he needed to get away from Milwaukee after his mother's death. It was too painful for him to stay. There was nothing Wojo could have done to keep him.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 20, 2015, 06:10:16 PM
You've brought this up a couple of times. Once again, Mayo and Burton leaving was UNAVOIDABLE. Mayo fooked up real bad over the summer. Even if Wojo had wanted to keep him, he couldn't have. Was not an option. Go straight to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200. For all intents and purposes, Wojo did not inherit Mayo.

Burton has come out publicly and said that he needed to get away from Milwaukee after his mother's death. It was too painful for him to stay. There was nothing Wojo could have done to keep him.

You damn fool have you even played basketball before!?!?!

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 20, 2015, 06:10:16 PM
You've brought this up a couple of times. Once again, Mayo and Burton leaving was UNAVOIDABLE. Mayo fooked up real bad over the summer. Even if Wojo had wanted to keep him, he couldn't have. Was not an option. Go straight to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200. For all intents and purposes, Wojo did not inherit Mayo.

Burton has come out publicly and said that he needed to get away from Milwaukee after his mother's death. It was too painful for him to stay. There was nothing Wojo could have done to keep him.

I disagree about Burton. He didn't say he needed to get away from MKE, until it was apparent he wasn't going to be a big part of Wojo's plan for the team. I'm sure his playing time made it much easier to say these things.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 05:00:47 PM
People downplaying this year's team, and what a tough situation Wojo inherited are simply not holding him accountable to the reality.  He inherited a very good situation.  Not sure if ever before has an MU coach walked into a program with 4 Top 60 sophomores, and 8 Top 100 players.

I will now post this for the third time. Look at the team's numbers. What coach, what player, what fan would look at these numbers and say that "wow, this is an ncaa tournament team"? The truth is, every player on our roster has improved greatly from their 2013-2014 selves. The only two who didn't improve were Dawson and Burton. Burton played out of position and was dealing with a terrible tragedy off the court. Dawson just simply wasn't good enough to get on the court.

PG: Derrick Wilson: 5.0 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.5 tpg, .391 FG%, .071 3P%
SG: Matt Carlino: 13.7 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.7 spg, 2.0 tpg, .385 FG%, .339 3P%
SF: Deonte Burton: 6.9 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 0.5 apg, 1.1 spg, 0.9 tpg, .478 FG%, .500 3P%
PF: Juan Anderson: 3.2 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 1.0 apg, 1.0 spg, 1.0 tpg, .378 FG% .192 3P%
C: Luke Fischer: 2.8 ppg, 2.1 rpg, 0.3 apg, 0.8 bpg, 0.5 tpg, .556 FG%, .000  3P% (not available to December 16)

Bench:
1: Jajuan Johnson: 4.3 ppg, 1.1 rpg, 1.0 apg, 0.4 spg, 0.5 tpg, .443 FG%, .290 3P%
2: Steve Taylor: 2.5 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.4 apg, 0.3 spg, 0.7 tpg, .324 FG%, .154 3P%
3: John Dawson: 2.0 ppg, 1.1 rpg, 1.0 apg, 0.1 spg, 0.7 tpg, .320 FG%, .269 3P%
4: Duane Wilson: No Data Available
5: Sandy Cohen: No Data Available

Team Stats:
40.4 points per game
19.7 rebounds per game
12.7 assist per game
437-1086 .402 FG% Matt Carlino by himself had almost as many attempts (426), as FGM by the entire team (437).
88-295 .298 3P% Matt Carlino had 60 of those 88 makes

This is what Wojo inherited. A team that last season averaged around 40 points per game on 40.2 shooting, and 29.8% three point shooting. A team that grabbed under 20 boards a game. A team whose average height at the beginning of the year was 6-3. A team that had one player who shot more than 30% from three on at least 5 makes. A team

If this isn't a rebuilding year, I don't know what is.

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on January 20, 2015, 06:21:35 PM
I disagree about Burton. He didn't say he needed to get away from MKE, until it was apparent he wasn't going to be a big part of Wojo's plan for the team. I'm sure his playing time made it much easier to say these things.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=46024.0

Burton says the main reason he transferred was to get away from Milwaukee and the troubles there. I can't possibly imagine the pain I would feel if I lost my mother. I would probably want to get as far away as I could too.

As for the timing as you point out, his semester was lost either way. Classes had started. Why not keep playing basketball for the semester? But more importantly, no one knows how a tragedy will affect them right away. He may have tried to tough it out and then just decided it was too much. I can't imagine trying to be a full time student and an athlete after a tragedy like that.

You can try to read between the lines or see hidden messages if you'd like. But I prefer to take the kid at his worst. He said he transferred to get away from an awful personal tragedy, than that is what I believe. To speculate more on it is disrespectful in my opinion.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 20, 2015, 06:33:10 PM
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=46024.0

Burton says the main reason he transferred was to get away from Milwaukee and the troubles there. I can't possibly imagine the pain I would feel if I lost my mother. I would probably want to get as far away as I could too.

As for the timing as you point out, his semester was lost either way. Classes had started. Why not keep playing basketball for the semester? But more importantly, no one knows how a tragedy will affect them right away. He may have tried to tough it out and then just decided it was too much. I can't imagine trying to be a full time student and an athlete after a tragedy like that.

You can try to read between the lines or see hidden messages if you'd like. But I prefer to take the kid at his worst. He said he transferred to get away from an awful personal tragedy, than that is what I believe. To speculate more on it is disrespectful in my opinion.

I could care less if you find it disrespectful. It is my opinion and I shared it. As for not playing out the rest of the semester, for what? It was apparent to me, that him and Wojo didn't really jive. Burton is an undisciplined player, who's style clashes with what Wojo likes. Why stick around if you don't feel wanted and plan on transferring anyway?

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 04:55:36 PM
At the end of the day, once again we'll have another crappy MU basketball season  

Yes. We will. The rest of us knew that and expected it as soon as Buzz Williams announced he was off to bumblefack nowhere.

We lost a larger percentage of scoring, rebounding, and three point shooting than any other team in the Big East. We lost more than Creighton!

We returned less scoring, rebounding, and three point shooting than any other team in the Big East besides Creighton (thank you Carlino).

We started the season with 9 players, none of whom were taller than 6"7.

We were picked to finish 9th in the conference by most pundits and coaches. No one had us higher than 6th.

At one point, KenPom was projecting us to go what? 2-16 in conference?

What you don't understand is that this team has actually over performed to this point. We should have definitely beaten Omaha, that sucked. And I would have thought we should have beaten Depaul but based on their recent performance...maybe not so much. We had no business beating Providence or Tennessee. Even beating Georgia Tech was a surprise. Our team shouldn't have won those games but they did. We should have never been close to winning @GTWN and @XAV. But we were. We should have never been in the game with Wisconsin or Michigan State, should have lost by 15-30. But we hung tough until the end and managed respectable losses.

The way I see it we have three wins we shouldn't have (PROV, GT, TN) and two losses we shouldn't have (Omaha, DPL). We have also beaten the spread in all of our other losses (MSU, WIS, GTWN, XAV, OSU). To me, that is exceeding expectations. Do I want more? Absolutely. Do I think we can over perform even more? You betcha. Do I expect it? Sure as hell don't.

God, it's like groundhog day around here...same people making the same arguments day after day.

Quote from: reinko on January 20, 2015, 05:48:49 PM
Lasted 6 min,  and 24 seconds.

Yeah...should have known better.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 20, 2015, 04:37:13 PM
LOL - Where is everybody jumping down Merritt's throat for a clearly speculative statement that he has NO proof or knowledge of.  Furthermore, the statement is totally and completely false.  I'm sure the Dawson family can attest to this.  And for real?  This is your logic Merritt?  Hey, I'm going to give John Dawson 4 minutes against Tennessee Martin to assess if I want him to remain at the program or encourage a transfer???  He did Dawson a HUGE disservice by playing him those 4 minutes.  If he had John's best interests at heart, and didn't feel he could be a contributor based on what he'd been seeing in practice - why freaking play him 4 minutes???

I don't agree with Merritt's perspective on this. I find it hard to believe, actually. But, it's the first time I've ever heard him say it. And, I'm just guessing, he won't be bringing it up multiple times in nearly  every thread he posts in.

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on January 20, 2015, 06:46:14 PM
I could care less if you find it disrespectful. It is my opinion and I shared it.

It's not about me. It's not about you either. It's about Burton. Could you imagine telling Burton "I know you said you transferred because staying in Milwaukee was too painful after your mother's death...but you really transferred because of playing time. We all know its true."

I try not to post things on Scoop that I wouldn't have the gall to say to someone's face. I know not everyone holds that same standard

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on January 20, 2015, 06:46:14 PM
As for not playing out the rest of the semester, for what? It was apparent to me, that him and Wojo didn't really jive. Burton is an undisciplined player, who's style clashes with what Wojo likes. Why stick around if you don't feel wanted and plan on transferring anyway?

I don't know, I'm not Burton. As a matter of fact, neither are you. I have heard nothing to indicate that Burton and Wojo "didn't jive." I also saw nothing to suggest that he was undisciplined. I also know that adapted the style of ball he wanted to play to fit the roster he was dealt. I also don't remember Burton every saying he felt unwanted and was planning on transferring. You either have some very good sources or you are making up stories that fit your narrative.

Burton came out and told us why he transferred. That almost never happens. I think if you hear it from the horse's mouth, there's no reason to doubt it.

In before the lock.

What's the over/under on #of posts till the ban hammer?

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 20, 2015, 07:05:33 PM
It's not about me. It's not about you either. It's about Burton. Could you imagine telling Burton "I know you said you transferred because staying in Milwaukee was too painful after your mother's death...but you really transferred because of playing time. We all know its true."

I try not to post things on Scoop that I wouldn't have the gall to say to someone's face. I know not everyone holds that same standard

I don't know, I'm not Burton. As a matter of fact, neither are you. I have heard nothing to indicate that Burton and Wojo "didn't jive." I also saw nothing to suggest that he was undisciplined. I also know that adapted the style of ball he wanted to play to fit the roster he was dealt. I also don't remember Burton every saying he felt unwanted and was planning on transferring. You either have some very good sources or you are making up stories that fit your narrative.

Burton came out and told us why he transferred. That almost never happens. I think if you hear it from the horse's mouth, there's no reason to doubt it.

You are quite naive TAMU. Do you believe everything that comes out of people's mouth? I wonder if you believe in unicorns and the tooth fairy? It was quite obvious to even the most casual observer that Burton and Wojo's styles didn't mesh. I don't know where you come up with players not saying why they transferred. I think it is quite common that it's usually about "transferring closer to home" or something along those lines. It's the PC way to dance around the question and not rip the program you are leaving.

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on January 20, 2015, 07:18:58 PM
You are quite naive TAMU. Do you believe everything that comes out of people's mouth? I wonder if you believe in unicorns and the tooth fairy? It was quite obvious to even the most casual observer that Burton and Wojo's styles didn't mesh. I don't know where you come up with players not saying why they transferred. I think it is quite common that it's usually about "transferring closer to home" or something along those lines. It's the PC way to dance around the question and not rip the program you are leaving.

I agree with you in general.  I think if he were happy at MU, staying in Milwaukee wouldn't have been as much of a problem.  But I don't think he is going to rip the program either way.  

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 20, 2015, 07:05:33 PM
It's not about me. It's not about you either. It's about Burton. Could you imagine telling Burton "I know you said you transferred because staying in Milwaukee was too painful after your mother's death...but you really transferred because of playing time. We all know its true."

I try not to post things on Scoop that I wouldn't have the gall to say to someone's face. I know not everyone holds that same standard

I don't know, I'm not Burton. As a matter of fact, neither are you. I have heard nothing to indicate that Burton and Wojo "didn't jive." I also saw nothing to suggest that he was undisciplined. I also know that adapted the style of ball he wanted to play to fit the roster he was dealt. I also don't remember Burton every saying he felt unwanted and was planning on transferring. You either have some very good sources or you are making up stories that fit your narrative.

Burton came out and told us why he transferred. That almost never happens. I think if you hear it from the horse's mouth, there's no reason to doubt it.

Burton was incredibly tactful and said he left because of the family situation. Smart thing to do , why burn bridges. On the other hand it was widely known that he and the Coach did not see eye to eye. That was made clear by the playing rotation.  So while I respect your Pro Coach posture and consistency thereto, in this case I think your seeing things through very rose colored glasses.  Burton had lots of friends at school and was doing well, he left because the people who lurk in the shadows told him the grass was greener somewhere else. Being a kid, and also at a moment of weakness, he bit. 

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on January 20, 2015, 07:18:58 PM
You are quite naive TAMU. Do you believe everything that comes out of people's mouth? I wonder if you believe in unicorns and the tooth fairy? It was quite obvious to even the most casual observer that Burton and Wojo's styles didn't mesh. I don't know where you come up with players not saying why they transferred. I think it is quite common that it's usually about "transferring closer to home" or something along those lines. It's the PC way to dance around the question and not rip the program you are leaving.

Just once, I wish someone on the internet who got called out for being disrespectful would respond by saying "You know what, I didn't think about that way. I'm sorry, that wasn't my intent." Instead of just getting macho and defensive. Just once.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 20, 2015, 07:23:52 PM

I agree with you in general.  I think if he were happy at MU, staying in Milwaukee wouldn't have been as much of a problem.  But I don't think he is going to rip the program either way.  

Unless you have lost a parent at a young age (which my sincerest apologies if that is the case), I don't really think you have a right to say that. I have known kids who love their alma mater and then transferred after a tragedy because they wanted to get away.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 20, 2015, 07:31:46 PM
Unless you have lost a parent at a young age (which my sincerest apologies if that is the case), I don't really think you have a right to say that. I have known kids who love their alma mater and then transferred after a tragedy because they wanted to get away.

I don't have a "right" to say that?  I know many people who have had losses in their life.  Sometimes places, like work for instance, can be a sanctuary.  Sometimes, if they aren't happy in the first place, it only makes it worse.

So when I hear Deonte say he wants to get out of Milwaukee, I don't think he is lying.  I just think Marquette is part of Milwaukee.  I think if he were fully happy at MU, staying in Milwaukee would have been easier for him to do.

Quote from: Texas Western on January 20, 2015, 07:31:29 PM

Burton was incredibly tactful and said he left because of the family situation. Smart thing to do , why burn bridges. On the other hand it was widely known that he and the Coach did not see eye to eye. That was made clear by the playing rotation.  So while I respect your Pro Coach posture and consistency thereto, in this case I think your seeing things through very rose colored glasses.  Burton had lots of friends at school and was doing well, he left because the people who lurk in the shadows told him the grass was greener somewhere else. Being a kid, and also at a moment of weakness, he bit. 

I think this "widely known" fact was mostly people not understanding how their favorite player wasn't performing as well as others on the roster.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 20, 2015, 07:31:46 PM
Just once, I wish someone on the internet who got called out for being disrespectful would respond by saying "You know what, I didn't think about that way. I'm sorry, that wasn't my intent." Instead of just getting macho and defensive. Just once

You might think that you are the moral police of the board, but you are not. I don't care that you find it disrespectful, it is my opinion and I stated as such. So I am not going to apologize for something that I don't find disrespectful. It is my point of view. Have a good night TAMU.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 20, 2015, 07:36:26 PM

I don't have a "right" to say that?  I know many people who have had losses in their life.  Sometimes places, like work for instance, can be a sanctuary.  Sometimes, if they aren't happy in the first place, it only makes it worse.

So when I hear Deonte say he wants to get out of Milwaukee, I don't think he is lying.  I just think Marquette is part of Milwaukee.  I think if he were fully happy at MU, staying in Milwaukee would have been easier for him to do.

Well, yes you have a right to say anything you want. But you can't possibly understand what Deonte is going through. Neither can I. Sure some places can be sanctuary. Sometimes, a loss is so devastating that even a perfect sanctuary can't help. Sometimes a loss makes you want to escape to somewhere new.

But I don't know. I'm not Deonte. For all I know all the things being said are true. I just think this line of thinking could be incredibly damaging and insulting to someone who just lost their mother.

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on January 20, 2015, 07:45:11 PM
You might think that you are the moral police of the board, but you are not. I don't care that you find it disrespectful, it is my opinion and I stated as such. So I am not going to apologize for something that I don't find disrespectful. It is my point of view. Have a good night TAMU.

You have the right to say whatever you want. I have the right to say whatever I want in response. I felt you were being disrespectful. It doesn't matter that you don't agree. Most people in real life would say "I'm sorry, I didn't mean it that way." But I know, its the internet. Everyone feels like they have the right to be disrepectful

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 20, 2015, 07:46:15 PM
But you can't possibly understand what Deonte is going through.

How do you know that?  I have had close friends and family members who have lost loved ones, oftentimes under very sudden and tragic circumstances.  I have seen how they have reacted and how they fared.  I have seen places that used to bring them great joy, bring them nothing but sadness.  Others act very differently. 

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 20, 2015, 07:40:20 PM
I think this "widely known" fact was mostly people not understanding how their favorite player wasn't performing as well as others on the roster.

Probably a bad choice of words. Let me rephrase. Those people who knew and were around Burton would tell you that he made it clear he was uncomfortable  with his role under Wojos regime. This is a garden variety transfer, for a guy who is around as many college campuses as you I am surprised you don't see it that way.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 20, 2015, 07:55:31 PM

How do you know that?  I have had close friends and family members who have lost loved ones, oftentimes under very sudden and tragic circumstances.  I have seen how they have reacted and how they fared.  I have seen places that used to bring them great joy, bring them nothing but sadness.  Others act very differently. 

I'm sorry, but I don't think watch friends go through something and experiencing it yourself is two completely different things.

Skill development
I really thought Wojo would correct JJJ's three point shooting form and to me it seems like it is even worse than last year.

Quote from: bilsu on January 20, 2015, 08:39:20 PM
Skill development
I really thought Wojo would correct JJJ's three point shooting form and to me it seems like it is even worse than last year.

JJJ really needs to work on his shot over the summer with the coaches. It is holding the rest of his game hostage.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 20, 2015, 06:25:28 PM
I will now post this for the third time. Look at the team's numbers. What coach, what player, what fan would look at these numbers and say that "wow, this is an ncaa tournament team"? The truth is, every player on our roster has improved greatly from their 2013-2014 selves. The only two who didn't improve were Dawson and Burton. Burton played out of position and was dealing with a terrible tragedy off the court. Dawson just simply wasn't good enough to get on the court.

PG: Derrick Wilson: 5.0 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.5 tpg, .391 FG%, .071 3P%
SG: Matt Carlino: 13.7 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.7 spg, 2.0 tpg, .385 FG%, .339 3P%
SF: Deonte Burton: 6.9 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 0.5 apg, 1.1 spg, 0.9 tpg, .478 FG%, .500 3P%
PF: Juan Anderson: 3.2 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 1.0 apg, 1.0 spg, 1.0 tpg, .378 FG% .192 3P%
C: Luke Fischer: 2.8 ppg, 2.1 rpg, 0.3 apg, 0.8 bpg, 0.5 tpg, .556 FG%, .000  3P% (not available to December 16)

Bench:
1: Jajuan Johnson: 4.3 ppg, 1.1 rpg, 1.0 apg, 0.4 spg, 0.5 tpg, .443 FG%, .290 3P%
2: Steve Taylor: 2.5 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.4 apg, 0.3 spg, 0.7 tpg, .324 FG%, .154 3P%
3: John Dawson: 2.0 ppg, 1.1 rpg, 1.0 apg, 0.1 spg, 0.7 tpg, .320 FG%, .269 3P%
4: Duane Wilson: No Data Available
5: Sandy Cohen: No Data Available

Team Stats:
40.4 points per game
19.7 rebounds per game
12.7 assist per game
437-1086 .402 FG% Matt Carlino by himself had almost as many attempts (426), as FGM by the entire team (437).
88-295 .298 3P% Matt Carlino had 60 of those 88 makes

This is what Wojo inherited. A team that last season averaged around 40 points per game on 40.2 shooting, and 29.8% three point shooting. A team that grabbed under 20 boards a game. A team whose average height at the beginning of the year was 6-3. A team that had one player who shot more than 30% from three on at least 5 makes. A team

If this isn't a rebuilding year, I don't know what is.

Oh you ... with your fancy facts and stats and stuff!

#firewojo

Quote from: Texas Western on January 20, 2015, 09:18:27 PM
JJJ really needs to work on his shot over the summer with the coaches. It is holding the rest of his game hostage.

And until he does he might want to think about cutting down the number of threes he takes. If he wants to play, anyway.

NM

I don't want to contribute anymore to this cluster.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 20, 2015, 10:45:53 PM
NM

I don't want to contribute anymore to this cluster.

(http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120108011903/victorious/images/a/ae/Simpsons_Clapping.gif)

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 20, 2015, 06:04:09 PM
Willie,

Please read the post I quoted to get the context before responding. Ners claimed that our players hadn't developed under Wojo. I showed him that they had in fact improved from last season. Of course some of it is on the players. It would be foolish to think it isn't. Almost as foolish as the argument I was countering saying that they hadn't improved at all.

You see but you do not observe   8-)

And Buzz really got to you. You really need to let that one go. It's been almost a year.

Thank you for clearing that up. I thought you were claiming it was all Wojo. But I see you have not lent any thing to the possibility that perhaps the Buzzster held any of them back. That is one observation that you will not look at. Methinks that you see but do not observe, colored by your Buzzster spectacles.

Quote from: MU82 on January 20, 2015, 10:15:13 PM
Oh you ... with your fancy facts and stats and stuff!

#firewojo

Stats are a weak crutch used by those who never played high school basketball or mastered the eye test.

Quote from: willie warrior on January 21, 2015, 06:45:34 AM

Thank you for clearing that up. I thought you were claiming it was all Wojo. But I see you have not lent any thing to the possibility that perhaps the Buzzster held any of them back. That is one observation that you will not look at. Methinks that you see but do not observe, colored by your Buzzster spectacles.

Willie, in your opinion, who has shown in their play this year that they were wrongfully denied minutes last year?   I know your opinion that Duane should not have red-shirted.   I disagree about his red-shirting, but I freely acknowledge that had he been healthy he could have contributed last year, possibly substantially.    But among the others; Deonte, JJJ, STjr, JD, who among them has shown enough this year to think they should have gotten more time last year?

Quote from: tower912 on January 21, 2015, 08:56:43 AM
Willie, in your opinion, who has shown in their play this year that they were wrongfully denied minutes last year?   I know your opinion that Duane should not have red-shirted.   I disagree about his red-shirting, but I freely acknowledge that had he been healthy he could have contributed last year, possibly substantially.    But among the others; Deonte, JJJ, STjr, JD, who among them has shown enough this year to think they should have gotten more time last year?

Good luck getting a response.

Quote from: g0lden3agle on January 21, 2015, 09:21:14 AM
Good luck getting a response.

Indeed. It is painfully obvious why JJJ and STJ saw diminished minutes.

Quote from: willie warrior on January 21, 2015, 06:45:34 AM

Thank you for clearing that up. I thought you were claiming it was all Wojo. But I see you have not lent any thing to the possibility that perhaps the Buzzster held any of them back. That is one observation that you will not look at. Methinks that you see but do not observe, colored by your Buzzster spectacles.

Methinks you're the one who can't observe - you're blinded by hate. Buzz coached his own players for four years here. One was lousy, three rank in Marquette's top five in the last thirty-eight.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 21, 2015, 10:04:56 AM
Methinks you're the one who can't observe - you're blinded by hate. Buzz coached his own players for four years here. One was lousy, three rank in Marquette's top five in the last thirty-eight.

Thank you Lenny for your input and love for the phony cowboy. Your point is duly noted. Buzz was the man for you. I am glad that he fooled you also, if it makes your day. As honest Abe said, you can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. And you fall squarely in that second one when it comes to Buzz.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 20, 2015, 06:25:28 PM
I will now post this for the third time. Look at the team's numbers. What coach, what player, what fan would look at these numbers and say that "wow, this is an ncaa tournament team"? The truth is, every player on our roster has improved greatly from their 2013-2014 selves. The only two who didn't improve were Dawson and Burton. Burton played out of position and was dealing with a terrible tragedy off the court. Dawson just simply wasn't good enough to get on the court.

PG: Derrick Wilson: 5.0 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.5 tpg, .391 FG%, .071 3P%
SG: Matt Carlino: 13.7 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.7 spg, 2.0 tpg, .385 FG%, .339 3P%
SF: Deonte Burton: 6.9 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 0.5 apg, 1.1 spg, 0.9 tpg, .478 FG%, .500 3P%
PF: Juan Anderson: 3.2 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 1.0 apg, 1.0 spg, 1.0 tpg, .378 FG% .192 3P%
C: Luke Fischer: 2.8 ppg, 2.1 rpg, 0.3 apg, 0.8 bpg, 0.5 tpg, .556 FG%, .000  3P% (not available to December 16)

Bench:
1: Jajuan Johnson: 4.3 ppg, 1.1 rpg, 1.0 apg, 0.4 spg, 0.5 tpg, .443 FG%, .290 3P%
2: Steve Taylor: 2.5 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.4 apg, 0.3 spg, 0.7 tpg, .324 FG%, .154 3P%
3: John Dawson: 2.0 ppg, 1.1 rpg, 1.0 apg, 0.1 spg, 0.7 tpg, .320 FG%, .269 3P%
4: Duane Wilson: No Data Available
5: Sandy Cohen: No Data Available

Team Stats:
40.4 points per game
19.7 rebounds per game
12.7 assist per game
437-1086 .402 FG% Matt Carlino by himself had almost as many attempts (426), as FGM by the entire team (437).
88-295 .298 3P% Matt Carlino had 60 of those 88 makes

This is what Wojo inherited. A team that last season averaged around 40 points per game on 40.2 shooting, and 29.8% three point shooting. A team that grabbed under 20 boards a game. A team whose average height at the beginning of the year was 6-3. A team that had one player who shot more than 30% from three on at least 5 makes. A team

If this isn't a rebuilding year, I don't know what is.

TAMU - Still waiting for you to answer the question:  Is it ever a coaches fault for how a team and specific players play/develop under their regime?

And as for your complete waste of time above - you are clearly a guy who can only take something at total and complete face value and not see the real reality.  You are incredibly naive for a guy who's been around 4 major D-1 programs.  Curious - what is your role at the universities you've worked - and which universities?  You believe Burton's statement word for word as the Gospel of the reality?  Players and the families of players post here, and have told you several times he wasn't happy with his role and the way he was being used under Wojo (and rightfully so) - was a joke.

As for your above stats - once again you can't see beyond face value or any context.

Let's look at the minutes played by the guys you mention - yet you will now probably argue that because many of the guys didn't play much as freshman they don't have any experience - yet all of last year argued that getting experience for them wasn't really of any value nor would it give the team the best chance to win.  Yet we floundered to 9-9 season anyway.

But there are 4 Top 60 players on this team Wojo inherited that were sophomores and in either MU's program or Indiana's program for 16+ months.  NONE of those kids got many minutes as freshman so DUH - of course they aren't going to have any production.

If you don't expect 4, Top 60 kids to be good players as sophomores, then you clearly must feel the coaching staff must be lacking in its development?

And you keep saying Wojo couldn't let Mayo back in the program - I wasn't aware of this - So, what was the reason Wojo couldn't allow him back in?  And please, don't cop to "I can't say."  Todd is gone.  Don't have to reveal your source of course but clearly you know something the rest of the board and MU BBall community have yet to reveal or be aware of - so let's hear it.

Quote from: tower912 on January 21, 2015, 08:56:43 AM
Willie, in your opinion, who has shown in their play this year that they were wrongfully denied minutes last year?   I know your opinion that Duane should not have red-shirted.   I disagree about his red-shirting, but I freely acknowledge that had he been healthy he could have contributed last year, possibly substantially.    But among the others; Deonte, JJJ, STjr, JD, who among them has shown enough this year to think they should have gotten more time last year?

I  guess you are missing the point. And restricting it to the 4 you have mentioned is also a moot point. Different year, different coaches and styles. And you question is restricting the debate. What if we had played zone much more last year as we are this year? Then some people last year may have played more than they did. But there are too many variables to try to answer you question. One could also argue that maybe Juan and Deonte, and possibly JJJ would even be better this year if they played more than last year. My point is, Buzz held some players back from their development by not playing them. That is my belief--you can believe what ever you want. But I am glad the guy is gone. His performance last year and his phony homespun BS wore out his welcome, and his parting BS proves it. I have moved on, just not about my opinion of the Buzzster and the way he screwed it up last year.

Quote from: willie warrior on January 21, 2015, 10:12:18 AM
Thank you Lenny for your input and love for the phony cowboy. Your point is duly noted. Buzz was the man for you. I am glad that he fooled you also, if it makes your day. As honest Abe said, you can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. And you fall squarely in that second one when it comes to Buzz.

You're right, Willie. I was fooled. The back to back to back Sweet 16, Sweet 16. Elite 8 seasons didn't happen. Back to back 14-4 records and a conference championship in college basketball's toughest conference didn't either. We all thought they did but your objective eyes know better.

I am not missing the point, you are not answering my question.   Restricting it to those 4 IS the question, as they are the 4 who so many felt were being held back by Buzz.    Buzz played zone last year far more than in years past in order to get Gardner and Otule on the floor at the same time (a huge mistake in my opinion) as neither could play man on the perimeter.    You cite Juan and Deonte.   Who should they have taken minutes from?   Why?  (FWIW, I thought that Buzz should have started Deonte the second half of the season)   From my perspective, the way the aforementioned sophs who played last year have played defense this year actually proves Buzz's point about them.
IYO, Buzz screwed up last year.    I don't disagree, but my reasons are different.    I think that Blue leaving and Otule returning unbalanced the team.   I think he expected the seniors to lead and they didn't.  I think he got trapped with Mayo.   I think that the freshmen were not what he thought they were going to be.   Which left him with a team that HE had created that was the opposite of his prior teams.   Not athletic on the perimeter, slow, low post oriented.  
It was probably time for him to go.   But, IMO, he is still the best coach at MU since Al.   Who was no saint.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 21, 2015, 10:23:14 AM
TAMU - Still waiting for you to answer the question:  Is it ever a coaches fault for how a team and specific players play/develop under their regime?

And as for your complete waste of time above - you are clearly a guy who can only take something at total and complete face value and not see the real reality.  You are incredibly naive for a guy who's been around 4 major D-1 programs.  Curious - what is your role at the universities you've worked - and which universities?  You believe Burton's statement word for word as the Gospel of the reality?  Players and the families of players post here, and have told you several times he wasn't happy with his role and the way he was being used under Wojo (and rightfully so) - was a joke.

As for your above stats - once again you can't see beyond face value or any context.

Let's look at the minutes played by the guys you mention - yet you will now probably argue that because many of the guys didn't play much as freshman they don't have any experience - yet all of last year argued that getting experience for them wasn't really of any value nor would it give the team the best chance to win.  Yet we floundered to 9-9 season anyway.

But there are 4 Top 60 players on this team Wojo inherited that were sophomores and in either MU's program or Indiana's program for 16+ months.  NONE of those kids got many minutes as freshman so DUH - of course they aren't going to have any production.

If you don't expect 4, Top 60 kids to be good players as sophomores, then you clearly must feel the coaching staff must be lacking in its development?

And you keep saying Wojo couldn't let Mayo back in the program - I wasn't aware of this - So, what was the reason Wojo couldn't allow him back in?  And please, don't cop to "I can't say."  Todd is gone.  Don't have to reveal your source of course but clearly you know something the rest of the board and MU BBall community have yet to reveal or be aware of - so let's hear it.

I thought you were done arguing?

Is this yet another moratorium that you show no will power to follow through with?

I have been part of the problem in this thread. I should not have participated. Be the change, right?

If Ners wants to play this role again, that's fine. Just keep it contained within specific threads. I'll just ignore and stay out of those topics. I have full control over what I read.

If it starts to spread out to repeated threads, then I'll suggest that the mods will have to step in again.

Rage on, gentleman. Rage on.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 21, 2015, 10:23:14 AM
TAMU - Still waiting for you to answer the question:  Is it ever a coaches fault for how a team and specific players play/develop under their regime?

I did answer the question two pages ago

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 20, 2015, 02:23:01 PM
I do expect them to develop. And guess what, they did! Since Wojo took over every player but two have improved.

Carlino went from a true chucker (.339 3P, .385 FG) to a legitimate playmaker (.421 3P, .406 FG)
Derrick went from a career 5% 3P shooter and 31% FG to .304 3P and .446 FG
Juan went from an embarrassment offensively (3.2 ppg, .378 FG, .192 3P) to legitimate scorer (10.5 ppg, .519 FG%, .435 3P)
Jajuan has increased his scoring (8.4 ppg v. 4.3 ppg), rebounding (2.8 rpg v. 1.1 rpg), assists (1.9 apg v. 1.0 apg) and has been much better defensively, though still not great, except for steals (1.3 spg v. 0.4 spg)
Steve Taylor went from a non-factor to a solid rebounder but still struggles. He is hampered by constantly playing out of position.
Luke went from a no name backup to a legitimate starting center

The only 2 who didn't improve were Deonte and Dawson. Deonte struggled because he played out of position and was dealing with a tragedy off the court. In case you missed it during your absence, an article came out where Burton talked about his transfer. He said it was 100% because of the passing of his mother and needing to get away from the pain in Milwaukee. Dawson should have never played on last year's team, but our lack of depth at PG required it. Since we had plenty of PGs on the roster this year, his services were no longer required.

So 6/8 players improved. Most of those 6 improved dramatically. The 2 who didn't either had significant off the court issues or simply didn't get playing time. Throw in the fact that both freshmen have produced at a higher level than I would have expected, I'd say Wojo and Co. should get some props for their player development. Juan's transformation alone is extremely impressive to me.

Again, this is another false narrative. The real story is that you have unrealistic exceptions for how much improvement you want to see from each player. Not all players can have dramatic improvements like Juan did.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 21, 2015, 10:23:14 AM
You believe Burton's statement word for word as the Gospel of the reality?  Players and the families of players post here, and have told you several times he wasn't happy with his role and the way he was being used under Wojo (and rightfully so) - was a joke.

That's not what I said. I said it is disrespectful to question a kid's motives for transferring after he said it was because of his mother passing. Imagine telling Deonte "I know you said you transferred because staying in Milwaukee was to painful after your mother's death. But you really transferred because of your playing time. C'mon, we all know its true." If I was Deonte, I'd want to punch someone who was saying that about me.  I also truly believe the primary motive for his transfer was his mother's death. I don't believe it was the only reason, but I do think it was the main one. But I don't know that. Only Deonte can know that. I don't know why others feel the need to talk about Deonte as if they can read his mind.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 21, 2015, 10:23:14 AM
If you don't expect 4, Top 60 kids to be good players as sophomores, then you clearly must feel the coaching staff must be lacking in its development?

I already answered this:

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 20, 2015, 02:23:01 PM
I do expect them to develop. And guess what, they did! Since Wojo took over every player but two have improved.

Carlino went from a true chucker (.339 3P, .385 FG) to a legitimate playmaker (.421 3P, .406 FG)
Derrick went from a career 5% 3P shooter and 31% FG to .304 3P and .446 FG
Juan went from an embarrassment offensively (3.2 ppg, .378 FG, .192 3P) to legitimate scorer (10.5 ppg, .519 FG%, .435 3P)
Jajuan has increased his scoring (8.4 ppg v. 4.3 ppg), rebounding (2.8 rpg v. 1.1 rpg), assists (1.9 apg v. 1.0 apg) and has been much better defensively, though still not great, except for steals (1.3 spg v. 0.4 spg)
Steve Taylor went from a non-factor to a solid rebounder but still struggles. He is hampered by constantly playing out of position.
Luke went from a no name backup to a legitimate starting center

The only 2 who didn't improve were Deonte and Dawson. Deonte struggled because he played out of position and was dealing with a tragedy off the court. In case you missed it during your absence, an article came out where Burton talked about his transfer. He said it was 100% because of the passing of his mother and needing to get away from the pain in Milwaukee. Dawson should have never played on last year's team, but our lack of depth at PG required it. Since we had plenty of PGs on the roster this year, his services were no longer required.

So 6/8 players improved. Most of those 6 improved dramatically. The 2 who didn't either had significant off the court issues or simply didn't get playing time. Throw in the fact that both freshmen have produced at a higher level than I would have expected, I'd say Wojo and Co. should get some props for their player development. Juan's transformation alone is extremely impressive to me.

Again, this is another false narrative. The real story is that you have unrealistic exceptions for how much improvement you want to see from each player. Not all players can have dramatic improvements like Juan did.

All of the players have improved significantly, other than Dawson and Burton. The problem lies in the fact that you have unreasonable expectations for how much each player should have improved. Truth is, we are overperforming compared to what most experts predicted.

Quote from: NersEllenson on January 21, 2015, 10:23:14 AM
And you keep saying Wojo couldn't let Mayo back in the program - I wasn't aware of this - So, what was the reason Wojo couldn't allow him back in?  And please, don't cop to "I can't say."  Todd is gone.  Don't have to reveal your source of course but clearly you know something the rest of the board and MU BBall community have yet to reveal or be aware of - so let's hear it.

I actually said that Mayo fooked up so badly that Wojo couldn't have taken him back even if he wanted to, which he didn't. And no, I won't say why because I have been specifically asked not to. However, I will say that the reason has been shared on this board. I dismissed it at first because I didn't believe it. But I had it confirmed by someone I trust. I believe you will find it in one of the original "Mayo is gone" threads.

IMHO, if you can't see the improvement in this team, players and coaches, you don't want to see the improvement.  There are absolutely areas which further improvement can be made, but the trend is in a positive direction.

The almost wins that turn into losses are frustrating, but honestly, they have exceed my expectations and I think expectations of any fan that isn't colored by hate and/or a need to be contrarian.  This team was in a bad place to start the season, they have adjusted and developed players and are on track for a 8-10 or 9-9 conference finish.  Am I happy about that no, I want more but I can't expect more than that.

I don't know how anyone could expect a NCAA bid from this team and not be tested for a drug addiction.

Quote from: mu03eng on January 21, 2015, 03:19:40 PM
IMHO, if you can't see the improvement in this team, players and coaches, you don't want to see the improvement.  There are absolutely areas which further improvement can be made, but the trend is in a positive direction.

The almost wins that turn into losses are frustrating, but honestly, they have exceed my expectations and I think expectations of any fan that isn't colored by hate and/or a need to be contrarian.  This team was in a bad place to start the season, they have adjusted and developed players and are on track for a 8-10 or 9-9 conference finish.  Am I happy about that no, I want more but I can't expect more than that.

I don't know how anyone could expect a NCAA bid from this team and not be tested for a drug addiction.

After UNO, there were people questioning if we would win a single Big East game. We've already doubled that and been competitive in every one of them. Getting anywhere near .500 considering where we were a couple months ago would be a huge accomplishment. This team is better, the players are better, and the program trajectory is better. Anyone saying otherwise is just trying to argue for the sake of it, not because of any thoughts grounded in reality.

Quote from: tower912 on January 21, 2015, 10:36:28 AM
I am not missing the point, you are not answering my question.   Restricting it to those 4 IS the question, as they are the 4 who so many felt were being held back by Buzz.    Buzz played zone last year far more than in years past in order to get Gardner and Otule on the floor at the same time (a huge mistake in my opinion) as neither could play man on the perimeter.    You cite Juan and Deonte.   Who should they have taken minutes from?   Why?  (FWIW, I thought that Buzz should have started Deonte the second half of the season)   From my perspective, the way the aforementioned sophs who played last year have played defense this year actually proves Buzz's point about them.
IYO, Buzz screwed up last year.    I don't disagree, but my reasons are different.    I think that Blue leaving and Otule returning unbalanced the team.   I think he expected the seniors to lead and they didn't.  I think he got trapped with Mayo.   I think that the freshmen were not what he thought they were going to be.   Which left him with a team that HE had created that was the opposite of his prior teams.   Not athletic on the perimeter, slow, low post oriented.  
It was probably time for him to go.   But, IMO, he is still the best coach at MU since Al.   Who was no saint.

There is no comparison on the amount of zone played last year compared to this year. None. De Nada. Zilch. And that does make quite a bit of difference in playing time and development. And that does not prove Buzz's point about them. The only point Buzz really believed in was his own ass. You believe what you want to and I will believe what I want to. And I sure don't know where you get the "so many felt those were the ones being held back" I am not saying Juan should have taken minutes from somebody, but he sure as hell could have filled in some for the disappearing act known as Jamil. Unfortunately Juan disappears as much. There is no sense trying to make that argument because as I said, there are two different coaches with two different styles/philosophies and different mix of players.

I am glad that you finally admitted that Buzz screwed last year up, but of course you ended with the greatest coach since Al who was no saint. So that makes it all right. I guess that comment means he was a better coach than Al.  But wait...this just in...Buzz was/is even a lesser no saint, as well as a phony. Al sure was no phony.

I never said that Buzz was without flaws.   Pay attention.    I said he is the best coach SINCE Al.   And that Al was no saint, either.  Zone is MU's base defense this year.   Buzz went to zone to try to get Otule and Gardner on the floor at the same time.   Of course MU is playing more zone this year.