MUScoop

Slightly disappointed with these quotes from Wojo as what he laments, he can correct.

"They present a number of difficulties to defend because they have guys who have the ability to score from all five positions," said first-year Marquette coach Steve Wojciechowski. "The way that they shoot the ball is outstanding. But our transition defense was not near what it needed to be."

QUOTE OF THE NIGHT
Wojciechowski on Ohio State's 10-man rotation: "Look, in order to beat a team like Ohio State, you have to have max effort for 40 minutes. Right now, because of where we are, we don't have the ability to play 10 guys."

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=400588333

(http://treasure.diylol.com/uploads/post/image/566102/resized_the-most-interesting-man-in-the-world-meme-generator-i-don-t-always-beat-a-dead-horse-but-when-i-do-i-blame-everyone-else-425bcd.jpg)

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 14, 2014, 09:41:24 AM
Here's a question:  If I've been repeating myself for a year, does that not also mean the other side has been repeating their same stance/posture throughout the course of that same year?  Let's get real:  I don't just come here and start new thread after new thread on the topic of our PG situation.  It gets perpetuated just as much by the other side as it does me.  Others here post the opposite viewpoint many times, and because I disagree and won't back down from the position I believe - that makes my repeating myself for a year more offensive than those on the other side of the argument?

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 18, 2014, 10:25:07 PM
Slightly disappointed with these quotes from Wojo as what he laments, he can correct.

"They present a number of difficulties to defend because they have guys who have the ability to score from all five positions," said first-year Marquette coach Steve Wojciechowski. "The way that they shoot the ball is outstanding. But our transition defense was not near what it needed to be."

QUOTE OF THE NIGHT
Wojciechowski on Ohio State's 10-man rotation: "Look, in order to beat a team like Ohio State, you have to have max effort for 40 minutes. Right now, because of where we are, we don't have the ability to play 10 guys."

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=400588333

I get the last quote.

Juan and Steve are gonna be dog gone tired at the end of each game until Luke joins the team.

Dawson, Cohen, and Derrick aren't guarding 6'6"+ post guys.

Ners, you might want to rethink your dead horse beating.  Or else you might be forced to rethink it all by yourself at home.

Quote from: rocky_warrior on November 18, 2014, 10:44:01 PM
Ners, you might want to rethink your dead horse beating.  Or else you might be forced to rethink it all by yourself at home.

No kidding. Same old BS.

Quote from: rocky_warrior on November 18, 2014, 10:44:01 PM
Ners, you might want to rethink your dead horse beating.  Or else you might be forced to rethink it all by yourself at home.

(http://www.miataturbo.net/attachments/engine-performance-56/113748d1400692118-turbo-exhaust-5470d1384830626-just-another-intro-banhammer_forecast1-jpg)

I like Carlino's quotes in Matty V's Notes and Quotes:

Carlino recognized during the final media timeout with 3:38 left that some of his teammates had negative body language. As one of the few players with experience, he decided to say something about it.

"When we were down 20 and we had that final group out ... I told the guys, 'It's still very important that we cut this thing down.' Because that's what the NCAA looks at at the end of the year, how much this team lost by. You lose by 11 as opposed to 25 it's a whole different story. Obviously you never want to lose, but just trying to keep the guys focused throughout the whole game is what I was trying to do."

What stands out most about that statement is that Carlino's already thinking about the NCAA Tournament selection committee. It may only be November, but he's considering how things will look come March and believes his team can be in the NCAA Tournament discussion.

Over that final 3:38, Marquette went on a 12-3 run. Sure, it was against a loose Ohio State defense, but there's something to be said about finishing strong.

Here's the link to the whole thing.  Glad we have Carlino this year....and Matty V.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/283146901.html

Yep, Carlino didn't have a great night, but he is clearly this team's leader and I'm excited to see what he will bring to this team.

Quote from: Lighthouse 84 on November 19, 2014, 07:21:12 AM
Here's the link to the whole thing.  Glad we have Carlino this year....and Matty V.

Couldn't agree more about having Velazquez this year. He's been good enough for me to break down and get a MJS subscription just to keep reading his MU coverage. Maybe he'll even be able to replace the Rosiak-shaped hole in my heart.

Quote from: rocky_warrior on November 18, 2014, 10:44:01 PM
Ners, you might want to rethink your dead horse beating.  Or else you might be forced to rethink it all by yourself at home.

I've rethought this post and I stand by it - it was a valid post/point.  We can play 5 guys that all the ability to score, and we could have gone 9 deep.  I felt it was interesting that Wojo was lamenting the challenges OSU presented, yet he could have employed a very similar strategy as did OSU.

Nailing Dawson to the bench for the whole game was bizarre.  Hell even some of those who argued against me regarding Dawson last season felt he was more suited to play against zone defense.  The kid can knock down shots (Diener said as much) and he can't get any time?  

The quotes are accurate.  OSU has players who can score from all positions. That is harder to defend. Some teams don't.

And we right not cannot play with a 10 man rotation. We have 9 eligible.  Now the Dawson thing us a separate issue.  Wojo must have reasons why he is not seeing the floor. I don't pretend to know why.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 09:05:49 AM
I've rethought this post and I stand by it - it was a valid post/point.  We can play 5 guys that all the ability to score, and we could have gone 9 deep.  I felt it was interesting that Wojo was lamenting the challenges OSU presented, yet he could have employed a very similar strategy as did OSU.

Nailing Dawson to the bench for the whole game was bizarre.  Hell even some of those who argued against me regarding Dawson last season felt he was more suited to play against zone defense.  The kid can knock down shots (Diener said as much) and he can't get any time?  

Last year you thought Buzz was throwing games on purpose by not playing Dawson and Burton starter's minutes. They're now a year older, stronger and more experienced and on a 9 man team. Dawson plays LESS than last year and Deonte is playing behind a freshman. Any chance you might have overestimated their readiness to be prime time players? Or is Wojo a stubborn egomaniac trying to prove a point to the administration?

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 09:05:49 AM
I've rethought this post and I stand by it - it was a valid post/point.  We can play 5 guys that all the ability to score, and we could have gone 9 deep.  I felt it was interesting that Wojo was lamenting the challenges OSU presented, yet he could have employed a very similar strategy as did OSU.

Nailing Dawson to the bench for the whole game was bizarre.  Hell even some of those who argued against me regarding Dawson last season felt he was more suited to play against zone defense.  The kid can knock down shots (Diener said as much) and he can't get any time?  

Honestly, I would not read too much into 1 game. Let's see how it plays out.

But, if the trend continues, maybe JD just isn't the guy you/we think he is.

(Or, maybe both Buzz and Wojo are trying to tank games.) I'm kidding.

I'm smelling a possible red shirt opportunity/option regarding Dawson.  It would explain a lot.

Quote from: noblewarrior on November 19, 2014, 09:51:22 AM
I'm smelling a possible red shirt opportunity/option regarding Dawson.  It would explain a lot.

Especially since the roster is soo deep

Quote from: noblewarrior on November 19, 2014, 09:51:22 AM
I'm smelling a possible red shirt opportunity/option regarding Dawson.  It would explain a lot.

We have 9 guys suiting up - I don't think you redshirt a guy under those circumstances. My guess is a transfer is much more likely.

Ummm no on the redshirt .  You redshirt guys that need a year and can be big contributors eventually with it.  Dawson will be behind cheatum n noskowiak next year too
He is what he is, the 10th 12th best player in the program, maybe he can crack the rotation in a year or two, u dont use a redshirt on that type of player.  Great kid im sure but a mid major type player at best

Dawson already played 4 minutes against UT-Martin.  Redshirt is gone unless he gets injured and a medical redshirt.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 19, 2014, 09:54:00 AM
We have 9 guys suiting up - I don't think you redshirt a guy under those circumstances. My guess is a transfer is much more likely.

Would you be actually be surprised if he left, I wouldn't??

Baylor, Colorado, Creighton, Wyoming, New Mexico, New Mexico state and others recruited him...

Its not like he was a walk on, If he can't find minutes here i'm sure there are other schools where he can.


http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/162866/john-dawson

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 19, 2014, 09:37:32 AM
Last year you thought Buzz was throwing games on purpose by not playing Dawson and Burton starter's minutes. They're now a year older, stronger and more experienced and on a 9 man team. Dawson plays LESS than last year and Deonte is playing behind a freshman. Any chance you might have overestimated their readiness to be prime time players? Or is Wojo a stubborn egomaniac trying to prove a point to the administration?

It's still early Lenny.  It's still early.  Never thought Dawson would be a "prime time player" last year, but he certainly wasn't going to be any worse than what the alternative was.  As for Burton, I still believe he is a prime time player, and will prove that out by the end of the year and should have been given more minutes last season as should have Dawson.

What I won't forgive Buzz for is this:  Derrick, Jake, Juan, Jamil, Otule.

We disagree on Buzz - you feel he's a stand up, high character, amazing person/coach and guy - I feel his character got revealed last season and by his quotes since leaving.  I also know he completely lost that team last year and was facing multiple transfers of guys he recruited if he stayed (not to mention McKay bailing on him before the season even started.)

Quote from: Nevada233 on November 19, 2014, 10:03:02 AM
Would you be actually be surprised if he left, I wouldn't??

Baylor, Colorado, Creighton, Wyoming, New Mexico, New Mexico state and others recruited him...

Its not like he was a walk on, If he can't find minutes here i'm sure there are other schools where he can.


http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/162866/john-dawson

I wouldn't be surprised - thought I was clear on that. He was the 44th rated point guard, offered only by Creighton, Wyoming and us. Baylor, New Mexico, New Mexico St and Colorado never offered. Maybe he's in a little over his head and a transfer to a lower profile program would serve him well.

Quote from: Lighthouse 84 on November 19, 2014, 07:21:12 AM
I like Carlino's quotes in Matty V's Notes and Quotes:

Carlino recognized during the final media timeout with 3:38 left that some of his teammates had negative body language. As one of the few players with experience, he decided to say something about it.

"When we were down 20 and we had that final group out ... I told the guys, 'It's still very important that we cut this thing down.' Because that's what the NCAA looks at at the end of the year, how much this team lost by. You lose by 11 as opposed to 25 it's a whole different story. Obviously you never want to lose, but just trying to keep the guys focused throughout the whole game is what I was trying to do."

What stands out most about that statement is that Carlino's already thinking about the NCAA Tournament selection committee. It may only be November, but he's considering how things will look come March and believes his team can be in the NCAA Tournament discussion.

Over that final 3:38, Marquette went on a 12-3 run. Sure, it was against a loose Ohio State defense, but there's something to be said about finishing strong.

Here's the link to the whole thing.  Glad we have Carlino this year....and Matty V.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/283146901.html

Some great stuff here from Carlino - he's proving to be a very valuable addition.  We damn near doubled our point total from last year's game, even though the squad lost 72% of its points from last year - and Carlino is a huge part of why.  Great quotes and great that he identified that as a possible reality - loss margin for NCAA tourney consideration.

Dawson has the size, strength, athleticism, instincts, and skill to be a solid to good high major player. I hope he sticks with the program and starts to earn minutes this year, I think he could help out at both the 1 & 2.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 10:08:57 AM


What I won't forgive Buzz for is this:  Derrick, Jake, Juan, Jamil, Otule.

Did that lineup ever play more than three minutes? Mayo and Gardner were the guys who in effect started since they played the big minutes - not Anderson and Otule. You know that.

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 19, 2014, 10:18:01 AM
Dawson has the size, strength, athleticism, instincts, and skill to be a solid to good high major player. I hope he sticks with the program and starts to earn minutes this year, I think he could help out at both the 1 & 2.

Indeed I don't know where that Mid-Major thing came from....

Things will play themselves out... Lets all just relax... Hes not just gonna "DNP" the whole season with a 8 Man rotation worst case scenario (Injuries, Foul Trouble) are all bound to happen hes gonna see the floor... Unless Wojo and Deiner are gonna play....

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 19, 2014, 10:18:01 AM
Dawson has the size, strength, athleticism, instincts, and skill to be a solid to good high major player. I hope he sticks with the program and starts to earn minutes this year, I think he could help out at both the 1 & 2.

+1 - - See him a lot like DJ Newbill, although not quite as tall.  Newbill, like Dawson, isn't uber quick off the bounce, but just very strong, solid jumper and great feel for the game.  Dawson has those things.  He's a solid defender.  I don't understand why you play Derrick Wilson off the ball alongside Carlino - any of Duane, John, Cohen or JJJ would be better suited to get those minutes.  Hopefully Wojo figures that out soon and ends the senior loyalty experiment.

Hope John sees it through this rough patch too - he seems to be keeping a good attitude.  Yet at some point he needs to be given a chance to show what he can do in games, as I can't imagine how incredibly difficult last season was on him given the historically bad struggles of the guy in front of him.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 19, 2014, 10:20:16 AM
Did that lineup ever play more than three minutes? Mayo and Gardner were the guys who in effect started since they played the big minutes - not Anderson and Otule. You know that.

Mayo averaged 23 minutes a game - not even CLOSE to big minutes for a college player.

Burton averaged 12 minutes

JJJ and STeve Taylor invisible.

Jake and Derrick most definitely did play a ton of minutes together which of course was the most retarded of all coaching philosophies.  When pressed on the issue as to why they were playing - all Buzz could offer up was the ambigious:  They're playing to the scouting report.

Nope, not that they are producing at a high level..but "playing to the scouting report."  Give me a break - you are losing a lot of games - either get better scouting reports, or try different players.

Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 19, 2014, 10:18:01 AM
Dawson has the size, strength, athleticism, instincts, and skill to be a solid to good high major player. I hope he sticks with the program and starts to earn minutes this year, I think he could help out at both the 1 & 2.

High major player based on what? He certainly has not played enough to make that judgement. I think people hope he develops, the reality is he cannot get minutes in a depleted roster and there is clearly a reason for that.

It'll be interesting to see if Dawson plays Saturday and if so, how many minutes he gets. We need him going forward since we'll be losing two senior guards at the end of the season. What I'm hoping is that Wojo has explained to Dawson why he isn't getting many minutes so far instead of letting him twist in the wind, ala Brent.

Hopefully it'll also be an opportunity for Burton to do some good things and log some solid playing time.

Quote from: 79Warrior on November 19, 2014, 10:33:50 AM
High major player based on what? He certainly has not played enough to make that judgement. I think people hope he developst, the reality is he cannot get minutes in a depleted roster and there is clearly a reason for that.

I base it on what he showed as a freshman in big road games against Georgetown & Providence last year. Not only was he competent and confident, he was a net positive and looked like the best player on the court at times. I don't think saying that he has what it takes to be a solid to good high major player with the hope that he sticks with the program is outlandish.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 10:08:57 AM
It's still early Lenny.  It's still early.  Never thought Dawson would be a "prime time player" last year, but he certainly wasn't going to be any worse than what the alternative was.  As for Burton, I still believe he is a prime time player, and will prove that out by the end of the year and should have been given more minutes last season as should have Dawson.

Let's use actual statistics from last season and then I'm going to free myself from this "debate"...

PER
Derrick: 10.5
Dawson: 4.0

TS%
Derrick: 42.0%
Dawson: 43.5%

eFG%
Derrick: 40.7%
Dawson: 39.0%

AST%
Derrick: 25.4% (team high)
Dawson: 18.9% (3rd)

TO% (lower is better)
Derrick: 19.5
Dawson: 23.5

Points Produced
Derrick: 222 (0.225/min)
Dawson: 53 (0.216/min)

ORtg
Derrick: 99.0
Dawson: 89.5

DRtg (lower is better)
Derrick: 103.1
Dawson: 105.6

O Win Shares
Derrick: 0.4
Dawson: -0.1

D Win Shares
Derrick: 1.4
Dawson: 0.3

Win Shares
Derrick: 1.8
Dawson: 0.2

WS/40
Derrick: .073
Dawson: .030

Averages Per 40
Derrick: 6.5 pts, 5.5 ast, 4.9 reb, 1.7 steals, 1.9 TO, 3.2 PF
Dawson: 7.8 pts, 4.1 ast, 4.2 reb, 0.5 stls, 2.8 TO, 6.4 PF

Dawson is a talented player and no one is going to confuse Derrick Wilson with Chris Paul or even Cordell Henry, but there is no evidence to back up your claim that Dawson "wasn't going to be any worse than the alternative," especially when you consider that, other than Pts/40 and eFG%, every single metric favors Derrick, many of them by a significant margin.

Quote from: WolverineWarrior85 on November 19, 2014, 10:39:54 AM
It'll be interesting to see if Dawson plays Saturday and if so, how many minutes he gets. We need him going forward since we'll be loosing two senior guards at the end of the season. What I'm hoping is that Wojo has explained to Dawson why he isn't getting many minutes so far instead of letting him twist in the wind, ala Brent.

Hopefully it'll also be an opportunity for Burton to do some good things and log some solid playing time.

2 top guards coming in next year, add Duane Wilson and JJJ moving to guard next year will give them 4 guards, add Dawson 5 so they will be OK there, no experience but talented.

I think one thing people are underestimating with Burton is that he still lost his mother just over a month ago. I'm sure that caused him not to focus on basketball for a while and he may have missed practice which is huge when you only have 30 or so before you start playing games. He will play more, but for now it seems like he is still catching up to speed a little bit.

Quote from: 79Warrior on November 19, 2014, 10:33:50 AM
High major player based on what? He certainly has not played enough to make that judgement. I think people hope he developst, the reality is he cannot get minutes in a depleted roster and there is clearly a reason for that.

Question for you:  Has another guy played enough to make a judgment that he most definitely isn't a high major player?

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 19, 2014, 10:44:01 AM
Let's use actual statistics from last season and then I'm going to free myself from this "debate"...

PER
Derrick: 10.5
Dawson: 4.0

TS%
Derrick: 42.0%
Dawson: 43.5%

eFG%
Derrick: 40.7%
Dawson: 39.0%

AST%
Derrick: 25.4% (team high)
Dawson: 18.9% (3rd)

TO% (lower is better)
Derrick: 19.5
Dawson: 23.5

Points Produced
Derrick: 222 (0.225/min)
Dawson: 53 (0.216/min)

ORtg
Derrick: 99.0
Dawson: 89.5

DRtg (lower is better)
Derrick: 103.1
Dawson: 105.6

O Win Shares
Derrick: 0.4
Dawson: -0.1

D Win Shares
Derrick: 1.4
Dawson: 0.3

Win Shares
Derrick: 1.8
Dawson: 0.2

WS/40
Derrick: .073
Dawson: .030

Averages Per 40
Derrick: 6.5 pts, 5.5 ast, 4.9 reb, 1.7 steals, 1.9 TO, 3.2 PF
Dawson: 7.8 pts, 4.1 ast, 4.2 reb, 0.5 stls, 2.8 TO, 6.4 PF

Dawson is a talented player and no one is going to confuse Derrick Wilson with Chris Paul or even Cordell Henry, but there is no evidence to back up your claim that Dawson "wasn't going to be any worse than the alternative," especially when you consider that, other than Pts/40 and eFG%, every single metric favors Derrick, many of them by a significant margin.

Dawson's stats were compiled on an average of getting 10 mintues per game in the 24 games he played - not to mention he didn't even get into 8 other games.  Pomroy won't even assign O-Ratings to a guy who plays less than 10 minutes in a game.  Not to mention Dawson' minutes he did get, other than Georgetown were typicall 2 to 3 minute stints of action  - what the hell can a I guy accomplish in such short runs?

Go look at Derrick's O-Rating from TN Martin - 13 minutes...a 22 O Rating.  Derrick has had the ideal environment to perform:  Consistent, long stretches of playing time and he is what he is. 

But, of course this has all been hashed and re-hashed 1000s of times over.

Well, we've now had two entirely different coaching staffs come to the conclusion that John Dawson - at this time, at least - is not worthy of or earned significant minutes on the court.

It could be that these guys are all incompetent, though that would seem to contradict most of the evidence put forth so far.

Or, it could be that they know what they're doing with Dawson and some here are overestimating his ability to help this team.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 10:51:25 AM
Dawson's stats were compiled on an average of getting 10 mintues per game in the 24 games he played - not to mention he didn't even get into 8 other games.  Pomroy won't even assign O-Ratings to a guy who plays less than 10 minutes in a game.  Not to mention Dawson' minutes he did get, other than Georgetown were typicall 2 to 3 minute stints of action  - what the hell can a I guy accomplish in such short runs?

Go look at Derrick's O-Rating from TN Martin - 13 minutes...a 22 O Rating.  Derrick has had the ideal environment to perform:  Consistent, long stretches of playing time and he is what he is.  

But, of course this has all been hashed and re-hashed 1000s of times over.

The numbers are what the numbers are.

Checked this thread more than once

(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/regret_this_decision_anchorman.gif)

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 10:51:25 AM
Dawson's stats were compiled on an average of getting 10 mintues per game in the 24 games he played - not to mention he didn't even get into 8 other games.  Pomroy won't even assign O-Ratings to a guy who plays less than 10 minutes in a game.  Not to mention Dawson' minutes he did get, other than Georgetown were typicall 2 to 3 minute stints of action  - what the hell can a I guy accomplish in such short runs?

Go look at Derrick's O-Rating from TN Martin - 13 minutes...a 22 O Rating.  Derrick has had the ideal environment to perform:  Consistent, long stretches of playing time and he is what he is. 

But, of course this has all been hashed and re-hashed 1000s of times over.

Actually this brings up a good point:

If we can't really evaluate a player with sporadic playing time, how are coaches supposed to evaluate who plays?

Give every guy 20min and see what happens? Go strictly off of practice performance? Give players limited opps and see if they sink or swim?

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 10:31:22 AM
Jake and Derrick most definitely did play a ton of minutes together which of course was the most retarded of all coaching philosophies. 

I'm sure someone will blast me for being PC, but I would appreciate if you found other language to express your frustration in the future. It's something that has affected my family and I don't take it lightly.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on November 19, 2014, 11:35:12 AM
Actually this brings up a good point:

If we can't really evaluate a player with sporadic playing time, how are coaches supposed to evaluate who plays?

Give every guy 20min and see what happens? Go strictly off of practice performance? Give players limited opps and see if they sink or swim?

The most successful coaches take the advice of message board posters who played some ball in high school.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 19, 2014, 11:37:01 AM
I'm sure someone will blast me for being PC, but I would appreciate if you found other language to express your frustration in the future. It's something that has affected my family and I don't take it lightly.

Agree with this 100%.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 19, 2014, 11:37:01 AM
I'm sure someone will blast me for being PC, but I would appreciate if you found other language to express your frustration in the future. It's something that has affected my family and I don't take it lightly.

+1

Agree.

Quote from: Nevada233 on November 19, 2014, 10:03:02 AM
Would you be actually be surprised if he left, I wouldn't??

Baylor, Colorado, Creighton, Wyoming, New Mexico, New Mexico state and others recruited him...

Its not like he was a walk on, If he can't find minutes here i'm sure there are other schools where he can.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/162866/john-dawson

Jamail Jones was recruited by Georgia, Ga Tech, UVa, and Oregon...and he now plays at Florida Gulf Coast.  No question that Dawson can get minutes somewhere...but don't assume it'd be a high major if he can't get off the bench for two seasons under two different coaching staffs.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 10:46:41 AM
Question for you:  Has another guy played enough to make a judgment that he most definitely isn't a high major player?

Look, the coaching staff obviously does not think he is ready, otherwise he would get in a game when we only suit up 9 guys. You guys can speculate all you want. bottom line, Wojo is not putting him in yet. He knows the players way better that you or I do.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 19, 2014, 12:06:54 PM
Jamail Jones was recruited by Georgia, Ga Tech, UVa, and Oregon...and he now plays at Florida Gulf Coast.  No question that Dawson can get minutes somewhere...but don't assume it'd be a high major if he can't get off the bench for two seasons under two different coaching staffs.

Yeah he plays 31 Mpg there too...

If you had a D-1 Kid would you want him to ride the pine for a career or go where he could play... I'm just asking...

Quote from: Nevada233 on November 19, 2014, 12:41:34 PM
Yeah he plays 31 Mpg there too...

If you had a D-1 Kid would you want him to ride the pine for a career or go where he could play... I'm just asking...

Oh, I absolutely agree - Dawson could probably light it up at a school like FGCU too, and I could easily understand him considering it if he sits again this year.

I was just responding to your post mentioning the likes of Baylor, etc...and pointing out that he quite likely wouldn't end up at that level of school if he rides the pines for two years under two different coaches.

But to be clear, I hope it doesn't come to that.  John seems like a great kid with a terrific attitude, and I'd love to see him stay at MU, playing time or not.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 19, 2014, 11:40:17 AM
Agree with this 100%.

Amen, +1,

Embarrassing to read that garbage on a MU site.   

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 19, 2014, 11:37:01 AM
I'm sure someone will blast me for being PC, but I would appreciate if you found other language to express your frustration in the future. It's something that has affected my family and I don't take it lightly.

Agree wholeheartedly!

Wow.  Gone all morning and Ners drops a post blasting Derrick...praising Dawson...ignoring stats...and calling a coach "retarded."

I need to skip more mornings.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 10:08:57 AM
Never thought Dawson would be a "prime time player" last year

You're kidding, right? You don't remember post after post waxing poetic about Dawson's abilities (if only that Buzz would stop intentionally throwing games!)?

Well, memory loss would explain the need to continuously post the same diatribes about Derrick Wilson time after time after time after time....

Quote from: T Diamond Smith34 on November 19, 2014, 01:51:01 PM
You're kidding, right? You don't remember post after post waxing poetic about Dawson's abilities (if only that Buzz would stop intentionally throwing games!)?

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=40505.msg529742#msg529742

"Dawson has the look of a better point guard than we've had here since Diener.  Yes...a huge statement...but he's making passes that are Magic Johnson good."

NOTE:  This was after a game against Grambling.

Quote from: T Diamond Smith34 on November 19, 2014, 01:51:01 PM
You're kidding, right? You don't remember post after post waxing poetic about Dawson's abilities (if only that Buzz would stop intentionally throwing games!)?

Well, memory loss would explain the need to continuously post the same diatribes about Derrick Wilson time after time after time after time....

Don't think there was "waxing poetic" about Dawson--merely Ners trying to explain why he believed Dawson was a better option at PG than Derrick. Now, if you want to classify that as "waxing poetic", then it should also be stated that the defenses of Derrick's game are "greasing the BS chute as Griswald greased his snow sled". Merry Christmas with that yuletide mention.

Quote from: willie warrior on November 19, 2014, 02:00:51 PM
Don't think there was "waxing poetic" about Dawson--merely Ners trying to explain why he believed Dawson was a better option at PG than Derrick. Now, if you want to classify that as "waxing poetic", then it should also be stated that the defenses of Derrick's game are "greasing the BS chute as Griswald greased his snow sled". Merry Christmas with that yuletide mention.

LOL Sultan beat me to it, if Magic Dawson isn't poetic than IDK what is

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 19, 2014, 11:37:01 AM
I'm sure someone will blast me for being PC, but I would appreciate if you found other language to express your frustration in the future. It's something that has affected my family and I don't take it lightly.

Sorry TAMU.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 19, 2014, 01:56:17 PM
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=40505.msg529742#msg529742

"Dawson has the look of a better point guard than we've had here since Diener.  Yes...a huge statement...but he's making passes that are Magic Johnson good."

NOTE:  This was after a game against Grambling.

Out of curiousity - have you bookmarked about 10 of my posts that you like to re-hash in weak attempts to make me look stupid?  I won't stoop to your childish level and pull a history of some of your "brilliant" posts.

I never called Dawson - "Magic Dawson."  Said he made passes that were Magic Johnson good - and he did in the Grambling...perhaps I'll see if I can video edit that game and upload them for everyone to debate.  The guy sees the floor incredibly well and regardless of what you want to think - when Dawson did get to play in games last year, our offense looked MUCH better than the alternative.

What is really, really sad is that you and the handful of others continue to make excuse after excuse after excuse for the inept PG play Derrick has given us.  It's still quite early this season and you can jump to all kinds of conclusions - it doesn't look good for Dawson...it looks likely Derrick is going to play 20 per game.  Coaches are capable of crushing on certain players and their PT isn't always commensurate with their actual production.  A hard working, tough, solid defender, high character guy is a guy that many coaches like - particularly when the head coach was the exact same thing.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 02:52:48 PM
Sorry TAMU.

Appreciate it

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 03:03:59 PM
Out of curiousity - have you bookmarked about 10 of my posts that you like to re-hash in weak attempts to make me look stupid?  I won't stoop to your childish level and pull a history of some of your "brilliant" posts.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but why does it bother you so much that people use post history?

If people want to look up my statements, they are welcome to do so. If I'm wrong, I'll just say: "Yep, I was waaay off."

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I can be held accountable for my statements.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on November 19, 2014, 03:26:09 PM
I'm not trying to be a dick, but why does it bother you so much that people use post history?

If people want to look up my statements, they are welcome to do so. If I'm wrong, I'll just say: "Yep, I was waaay off."

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I can be held accountable for my statements.

When it is the same guy, primarily, that pulls that maneuver - yeah, it gets a little annoying.  I won't "reciprocate" out of having a degree of maturity.  There have been plenty of bone-headed statements made here, and Sultan certainly doesn't lack for his share.  And btw, I don't consider my take on Dawson to be boneheaded, and whether it is at MU or elsewhere he will prove to be a quality college basketball player.

Perhaps Sultan will soon be pulling up my statements after 5 games into Davante's career saying he'd be as good or better than Robert Jackson was.  Perhaps he'll pull up my statements that upon Jake Thomas's transfer here, that I said he'd play minutes during meaningful parts of games (not typical walk on status - to which Sultan of course said I was crazy.)  Or that Buzz would likely lead us to Elite 8s/Final Fours if he were here 10 years (statement I made during his first year on the job.)  Point is - if you want to re-hash things that at present look like dumb comments, you can also go back and point out numerous ones that were prescient. 

As for you, you never make any forward looking statements, predictions, or prognostications.  You simply offer up generic post after post after post that doesn't generate any debate.  I'd imagine your investment portfolio contains no small caps, but instead is placed in low return large caps, perhaps not even in the stock market, but just bonds.  Nothing wrong with all of that of course, but you are the classic case of "safe."  

You and others may not like my posts, may disagree wholeheartedly, think I'm a douche or any of the like - yet, at least it generates some discussion and passion around here.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 03:38:47 PM
When it is the same guy, primarily, that pulls that maneuver - yeah, it gets a little annoying.  I won't "reciprocate" out of having a degree of maturity.  There have been plenty of bone-headed statements made here, and Sultan certainly doesn't lack for his share.  And btw, I don't consider my take on Dawson to be boneheaded, and whether it is at MU or elsewhere he will prove to be a quality college basketball player.

Perhaps Sultan will soon be pulling up my statements after 5 games into Davante's career saying he'd be as good or better than Robert Jackson was.  Perhaps he'll pull up my statements that upon Jake Thomas's transfer here, that I said he'd play minutes during meaningful parts of games (not typical walk on status - to which Sultan of course said I was crazy.)  Or that Buzz would likely lead us to Elite 8s/Final Fours if he were here 10 years (statement I made during his first year on the job.)  Point is - if you want to re-hash things that at present look like dumb comments, you can also go back and point out numerous ones that were prescient.  

As for you, you never make any forward looking statements, predictions, or prognostications.  You simply offer up generic post after post after post that doesn't generate any debate.  I'd imagine your investment portfolio contains no small caps, but instead is placed in low return large caps, perhaps not even in the stock market, but just bonds.  Nothing wrong with all of that of course, but you are the classic case of "safe."  

You and others may not like my posts, may disagree wholeheartedly, think I'm a douche or any of the like - yet, at least it generates some discussion and passion around here.

1) Gardner wasn't better than Robert Jackson.

2) Yeah, Ammo! Say something ridiculous that's proven to be false and then beat it to death over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over on thread after thread after thread after thread after thread after thread after thread after thread. Drive posters away...I mean, generate some discussion!

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 03:38:47 PM
When it is the same guy, primarily, that pulls that maneuver - yeah, it gets a little annoying.  I won't "reciprocate" out of having a degree of maturity.  There have been plenty of bone-headed statements made here, and Sultan certainly doesn't lack for his share.  And btw, I don't consider my take on Dawson to be boneheaded, and whether it is at MU or elsewhere he will prove to be a quality college basketball player.

Perhaps Sultan will soon be pulling up my statements after 5 games into Davante's career saying he'd be as good or better than Robert Jackson was.  Perhaps he'll pull up my statements that upon Jake Thomas's transfer here, that I said he'd play minutes during meaningful parts of games (not typical walk on status - to which Sultan of course said I was crazy.)  Or that Buzz would likely lead us to Elite 8s/Final Fours if he were here 10 years (statement I made during his first year on the job.)  Point is - if you want to re-hash things that at present look like dumb comments, you can also go back and point out numerous ones that were prescient.  

As for you, you never make any forward looking statements, predictions, or prognostications.  You simply offer up generic post after post after post that doesn't generate any debate.  I'd imagine your investment portfolio contains no small caps, but instead is placed in low return large caps, perhaps not even in the stock market, but just bonds.  Nothing wrong with all of that of course, but you are the classic case of "safe."  

You and others may not like my posts, may disagree wholeheartedly, think I'm a douche or any of the like - yet, at least it generates some discussion and passion around here.

I think it's totally fine to reciprocate. I think it's a reasonable response. People can be held accountable for their opinions, and it's okay to admit when you're wrong. I'm wrong a lot, trust me.

If you want, feel free to go back and look at my predictions in your Dawson thread. I made several of them, and I was right in that case.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=40505.100

I also made a prediction/bet with you about Todd Mayo vs Vander, which I won. Remember?

You keep trying to back me into a corner about not being BOLD with my opinions. I'm sorry that my sports takes aren't hot enough for you.

Here is a promise you made me last year:

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 13, 2013, 04:05:20 PM
And yes, I stand by my statement that Dawson is the real deal, and has the "it" factor.  I'll be sure to remind you, Brew, and Guns of this when Dawson proves it out.  Will be fun to serve you guys a deserved sh$t burger.

I would love for Dawson to be awesome, and I will gladly admit that I was wrong.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on November 19, 2014, 03:53:37 PM
You keep trying to back me into a corner about not being BOLD with my opinions. I'm sorry that my sports takes aren't hot enough for you.

You could be the Stephen A. to Ners' Skip.

Sorry to hear about your overly conservative investment strategies.

Quote from: Pakuni on November 19, 2014, 04:00:09 PM
You could be the Stephen A. to Ners' Skip.

Sorry to hear about your overly conservative investment strategies.

Times are tough all around. I appreciate the sentiment.

Maybe the mods can start a campaign to help Ammo's investments?

Creatine and armbands aren't free, fellas.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 03:38:47 PM
I won't "reciprocate" out of having a degree of maturity.

That quote made me laugh.

It's alright to lose, kid. One key to maturity is knowing when to throw in the towel (and doing it gracefully). It's becoming pretty obvious Dawson isn't the savior/solution/player you hoped/thought he would be. It's alright. We all lose.

Instead of going on and on and on and on about Dawson v. Derek, just take your lumps and move on.

Ners: It's becoming painfully obvious I may have overestimated Dawson. Can't wait to have a solution at point guard.
Everyone else: Derek wasn't a great solution either
Ners: Good thing we have Nick and Duane next year, plus Haanif
Everyone else: We're going to have to take our lumps this year, but the future is bright

The End.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 19, 2014, 03:50:36 PM
1) Gardner wasn't better than Robert Jackson.

2) Yeah, Ammo! Say something ridiculous that's proven to be false and then beat it to death over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over on thread after thread after thread after thread after thread after thread after thread after thread. Drive posters away...I mean, generate some discussion!

That post by Ners was great. Perfectly sums him up. Most come to Scoop to talk some hoops, kill time, have some laughs, wax on about bygone MU days, perhaps vent some frustrations.

Ners, he uses Scoop to extol the virtues of Ners. Just look at those predictions. And, how quickly it took him to make them. What a basketball savant.

And, good lord, if his predictions don't happen.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on November 19, 2014, 03:53:37 PM
I think it's totally fine to reciprocate. I think it's a reasonable response. People can be held accountable for their opinions, and it's okay to admit when you're wrong. I'm wrong a lot, trust me.

If you want, feel free to go back and look at my predictions in your Dawson thread. I made several of them, and I was right in that case.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=40505.100

I also made a prediction/bet with you about Todd Mayo vs Vander, which I won. Remember?

You keep trying to back me into a corner about not being BOLD with my opinions. I'm sorry that my sports takes aren't hot enough for you.

Here is a promise you made me last year:
I would love for Dawson to be awesome, and I will gladly admit that I was wrong.

I do recall "losing" the Vander/Mayo bet by I believe .03ppg in conference play as sophomores - wasn't that the bet?  Probably should have done points per minute, and of course Todd was coming off being out the whole first half of his sophomore season.

We'll see where things end up with Dawson, but of course it isn't looking promising for me at this point.  Yet I have no doubt he'll be a good player whether at MU or elsewhere.

Quote from: RJax55 on November 19, 2014, 04:12:59 PM
That post by Ners was great. Perfectly sums him up. Most come to Scoop to talk some hoops, kill time, have some laughs, wax on about bygone MU days, perhaps vent some frustrations.

Ners, he uses Scoop to extol the virtues of Ners. Just look at those predictions. And, how quickly it took him to make them. What a basketball savant.

And, good lord, if his predictions don't happen.

If his predictions don't happen, it wasn't because Ners was wrong. It was because of 1023 other factors that led to his prediction being wrong.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 19, 2014, 03:50:36 PM
1) Gardner wasn't better than Robert Jackson.

2) Yeah, Ammo! Say something ridiculous that's proven to be false and then beat it to death over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over on thread after thread after thread after thread after thread after thread after thread after thread. Drive posters away...I mean, generate some discussion!

Robert Jackson better than Gardner?  

Robert Jackson:  Hmm...guy played with 3 NBA'ers, including the best player to ever play at MU, had Travis Diener at PG additionally along with D-Wade.

Would have loved to see R-Jax operate on last year's team.  

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 04:18:32 PM
I do recall "losing" the Vander/Mayo bet by I believe .03ppg in conference play as sophomores - wasn't that the bet?  Probably should have done points per minute, and of course Todd was coming off being out the whole first half of his sophomore season.

We'll see where things end up with Dawson, but of course it isn't looking promising for me at this point.  Yet I have no doubt he'll be a good player whether at MU or elsewhere.

Listen, I don't bring up that bet to brag, I bring it up because you repeat this narrative that I don't make enough predictions or take BOLD stances.

You have even tried to examine my personal life on several occasions. (I assure you, Ammo does fine with his online poker career. )

I've made several wagers on this forum. I'm currently clean shaven because I made a dumb prediction about Joel Embiid. Feel free to look it up. I was an idiot.

My point is, it's okay to say "Ya, I got that wrong", and it's even okay to NOT make predictions about something.

If you continue to make BOLD PREDICTIONS and don't admit when you are wrong, people are going to throw it in your face.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on November 19, 2014, 04:29:10 PM
Listen, I don't bring up that bet to brag, I bring it up because you repeat this narrative that I don't make enough predictions or take BOLD stances.

You have even tried to examine my personal life on several occasions. (I assure you, Ammo does fine with his online poker career. )

I've made several wagers on this forum. I'm currently clean shaven because I made a dumb prediction about Joel Embiid. Feel free to look it up. I was an idiot.

My point is, it's okay to say "Ya, I got that wrong", and it's even okay to NOT make predictions about something.

If you continue to make BOLD PREDICTIONS and don't admit when you are wrong, people are going to throw it in your face.

That's fine.  Problem is we have seen exactly 1 freaking game of what Dawson can do if given 30 minutes of playing time...and not to my surprise, it went well.  Has never gotten anything close to that since.  If you want to come to the conclusion that he sucks, and is worse than Derrick fine.  I just don't believe it personally, so therefore I'm not going to admit that I'm wrong.  He showed nice flashes of potential last year in incredibly inconsistent playing time.  He showed moments of weakness as well as far as some relatively unforced turnovers.

He shoots 80% from the FT line last season, and there is no such thing as a guy who is a good free throw shooter who also isn't a good perimeter shooter.

Sorry, I refuse to throw the towel in on the guy, even if Wojo has designated him for 9th man through 2 games this season.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 04:41:46 PM
That's fine.  Problem is we have seen exactly 1 freaking game of what Dawson can do if given 30 minutes of playing time...and not to my surprise, it went well.  Has never gotten anything close to that since.  If you want to come to the conclusion that he sucks, and is worse than Derrick fine.  I just don't believe it personally, so therefore I'm not going to admit that I'm wrong.  He showed nice flashes of potential last year in incredibly inconsistent playing time.  He showed moments of weakness as well as far as some relatively unforced turnovers.

He shoots 80% from the FT line last season, and there is no such thing as a guy who is a good free throw shooter who also isn't a good perimeter shooter.

Sorry, I refuse to throw the towel in on the guy, even if Wojo has designated him for 9th man through 2 games this season.

I don't think anybody is asking you to say that "Dawson SUCKS", maybe just pump the brakes a little bit?

Also, I'm pretty sure this isn't true:

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 04:41:46 PM
He shoots 80% from the FT line last season, and there is no such thing as a guy who is a good free throw shooter who also isn't a good perimeter shooter.

Do you need me to take the time to look it up, or do you just want to take it back?

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 03:03:59 PM
Out of curiousity - have you bookmarked about 10 of my posts that you like to re-hash in weak attempts to make me look stupid?  I won't stoop to your childish level and pull a history of some of your "brilliant" posts.

I never called Dawson - "Magic Dawson."  Said he made passes that were Magic Johnson good - and he did in the Grambling...perhaps I'll see if I can video edit that game and upload them for everyone to debate.  The guy sees the floor incredibly well and regardless of what you want to think - when Dawson did get to play in games last year, our offense looked MUCH better than the alternative.

What is really, really sad is that you and the handful of others continue to make excuse after excuse after excuse for the inept PG play Derrick has given us.  It's still quite early this season and you can jump to all kinds of conclusions - it doesn't look good for Dawson...it looks likely Derrick is going to play 20 per game.  Coaches are capable of crushing on certain players and their PT isn't always commensurate with their actual production.  A hard working, tough, solid defender, high character guy is a guy that many coaches like - particularly when the head coach was the exact same thing.

You can call up my post history all you want.  I don't care.  Seriously, if you want to create a Sultan's Greatest Hits thread and bring up all the dumb predictions I made, go right ahead.

I am not making excuses for Derrick.  I said his play was poor last year.  It has been poor this year.  The difference is that he was the best option last year.  He is the third option this year.  

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 03:03:59 PM
Coaches are capable of crushing on certain players and their PT isn't always commensurate with their actual production.  A hard working, tough, solid defender, high character guy is a guy that many coaches like - particularly when the head coach was the exact same thing.

Or maybe Wojo, like Buzz, simply thinks he's the better option.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on November 19, 2014, 04:47:32 PM
Also, I'm pretty sure this isn't true:

Do you need me to take the time to look it up, or do you just want to take it back?

Yao Ming, 84%FT: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mingya01.html

Quote from: jesmu84 on November 19, 2014, 04:56:59 PM
Yao Ming, 84%FT: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mingya01.html

Davante avg. 79% FT for his career, and was 3-23 lifetime from 3pt.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on November 19, 2014, 04:47:32 PM
I don't think anybody is asking you to say that "Dawson SUCKS", maybe just pump the brakes a little bit?

Also, I'm pretty sure this isn't true:

Do you need me to take the time to look it up, or do you just want to take it back?

Okay...guess I need to qualify the statement - there are very few GUARDS or WINGS who are good FT shooters that aren't also good perimeter shooters.  Dawson's 28% from 3 wasn't great of course, but it was a hell of a lot better than 7%.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 19, 2014, 04:48:53 PM

You can call up my post history all you want.  I don't care.  Seriously, if you want to create a Sultan's Greatest Hits thread and bring up all the dumb predictions I made, go right ahead.

I am not making excuses for Derrick.  I said his play was poor last year.  It has been poor this year.  The difference is that he was the best option last year.  He is the third option this year. 

You also inferred Dawson wasn't a better offensive player than Derrick. 

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 19, 2014, 04:50:46 PM

Or maybe Wojo, like Buzz, simply thinks he's the better option.

True.  It's still early.  The early returns on Derrick's "improvement" aren't promising...though he did make that 3 pointer last night!!!

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 05:03:20 PM
You also inferred Dawson wasn't a better offensive player than Derrick.  

Well there are stats that pretty much support that POV.  However, I think Dawson is likely the better offensive player.  I just don't think he is the player you think he is...at least right now.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 19, 2014, 05:07:39 PM
Well there are stats that pretty much support that POV.  However, I think Dawson is likely the better offensive player.  I just don't think he is the player you think he is...at least right now.

Fair enough.  Just an FYI:  I suspect if you see Derrick relegated to 10 minutes a game this season, what his stats look like are going to be a lot worse than what Dawson's were for the 24 games he played in last year.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 05:03:20 PM
Okay...guess I need to qualify the statement - there are very few GUARDS or WINGS who are good FT shooters that aren't also good perimeter shooters.  Dawson's 28% from 3 wasn't great of course, but it was a hell of a lot better than 7%.

You also inferred Dawson wasn't a better offensive player than Derrick. 

Honestly, YES, I encourage you to make more qualifying statements to clarify what you are talking about.

As far as Dawson vs Derrick, the sample has been pretty small, which is why most people defer to the coach's decision. I don't think it's more complex than that.

Quote from: Freeport Warrior on November 19, 2014, 04:09:48 PM
That quote made me laugh.

It's alright to lose, kid. One key to maturity is knowing when to throw in the towel (and doing it gracefully). It's becoming pretty obvious Dawson isn't the savior/solution/player you hoped/thought he would be. It's alright. We all lose.

Instead of going on and on and on and on about Dawson v. Derek, just take your lumps and move on.

Ners: It's becoming painfully obvious I may have overestimated Dawson. Can't wait to have a solution at point guard.
Everyone else: Derek wasn't a great solution either
Ners: Good thing we have Nick and Duane next year, plus Haanif
Everyone else: We're going to have to take our lumps this year, but the future is bright

The End.

As much sense as this makes, I don't think he will get it.

Quote from: brandx on November 19, 2014, 06:05:26 PM
As much sense as this makes, I don't think he will get it.

He made a fair point/post.  Yet, as I said in another post - I'm not ready to throw in the towel on Dawson two games in, even though at present it looks likes he's the odd man out.  I believe he's going to have a nice college career whether that is at MU or elsewhere.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 07:03:16 PM
He made a fair point/post.  Yet, as I said in another post - I'm not ready to throw in the towel on Dawson two games in, even though at present it looks likes he's the odd man out.  I believe he's going to have a nice college career whether that is at MU or elsewhere.

And if he doesn't have a "nice" career, or produces very little, will you admit you were wrong?

I didn't remember this one:

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 13, 2013, 04:05:20 PM
And yes, I stand by my statement that Dawson is the real deal, and has the "it" factor.  I'll be sure to remind you, Brew, and Guns of this when Dawson proves it out.  Will be fun to serve you guys a deserved sh$t burger.

When's that burger getting here? I'm starving.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 18, 2014, 10:25:07 PM
Slightly disappointed with these quotes from Wojo as what he laments, he can correct.

"They present a number of difficulties to defend because they have guys who have the ability to score from all five positions," said first-year Marquette coach Steve Wojciechowski. "The way that they shoot the ball is outstanding. But our transition defense was not near what it needed to be."

QUOTE OF THE NIGHT
Wojciechowski on Ohio State's 10-man rotation: "Look, in order to beat a team like Ohio State, you have to have max effort for 40 minutes. Right now, because of where we are, we don't have the ability to play 10 guys."

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=400588333

Um, am I missing something?  Saying OSU has guys who have the ability to score from all five positions making them difficult to defend, doesn't have anything to do with MU's offense.  You're dissecting a sentence taken from a comment that was meant to explain why playing OSU is difficult and trying to use it to support your established narrative that Derrick Wilson shouldn't play.  That's a pretty big reach, even for you.

Couldn't your "quote of the night" also be used to explain why Wilson gets the minutes he gets?  True, MU might be able to put a lineup out there that can score from all five positions, but are those same five playing with max effort at all times?  

Quote from: jesmu84 on November 19, 2014, 07:40:19 PM
And if he doesn't have a "nice" career, or produces very little, will you admit you were wrong?

Absolutely.  Look me up in 3 or 4 years (depending on if John stays or transfers.)

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 07:03:16 PM
He made a fair point/post.  Yet, as I said in another post - I'm not ready to throw in the towel on Dawson two games in, even though at present it looks likes he's the odd man out.  I believe he's going to have a nice college career whether that is at MU or elsewhere.

Which Division III school is he going to transfer to?  

Quote from: jesmu84 on November 19, 2014, 07:40:19 PM
And if he doesn't have a "nice" career, or produces very little, will you admit you were wrong?

Has he admitted he was wrong about Reggie Smith?

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 19, 2014, 08:07:57 PM
I didn't remember this one:

When's that burger getting here? I'm starving.

Nice.  Looks likes its going to be awhile TAMU.  Until then, stay thirsty my friend.

Quote from: MUSF on November 19, 2014, 08:11:53 PM
Has he admitted he was wrong about Reggie Smith?

I was wrong about Reggie Smith...even though Buzz started him over Cadougan originally.  Then Reggie's head got twisted.

I was also wrong about Derrick Wilson - had some nice things to say about him as a freshman..particularly after the Wisconsin game.  Was neutral on him as a sophomore.  Blasted him as a Junior.

I was wrong about Erik Williams - thought he'd be a good player at MU.

Was wrong about Buzz Williams - thought he actually had good character and was a stand up guy.

That's a partial list.

I wasn't wrong about last year's coaching, or team prospects if Buzz kept rolling out that lineup.  Called it after OSU game last season...as could most anyone with a general sense of basketball.

Quote from: MUSF on November 19, 2014, 08:09:05 PM
Um, am I missing something?  Saying OSU has guys who have the ability to score from all five positions making them difficult to defend, doesn't have anything to do with MU's offense.  You're dissecting a sentence taken from a comment that was meant to explain why playing OSU is difficult and trying to use it to support your established narrative that Derrick Wilson shouldn't play.  That's a pretty big reach, even for you.

Couldn't your "quote of the night" also be used to explain why Wilson gets the minutes he gets?  True, MU might be able to put a lineup out there that can score from all five positions, but are those same five playing with max effort at all times?  

My point is, that at minimum, there is a bit of irony if our Head Coach found OSU presented challenges due to their playing 5 guys who all can score - yet he chooses to play a guy who everyone on this planet knows can't score from his position.  Why would you as a coach not want to present a lineup that poses similar challenges to the one you are speaking of with regard to OSU?

As for the "Quote of the Night," I found it odd that Wojo apparently didn't feel we gave/got max effort for 40 minutes due to being shorthanded, yet he chose to bench a guy for the entire game.

Seems a little incongruent.  Feel free to disagree.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 08:23:06 PM
My point is, that at minimum, there is a bit of irony if our Head Coach found OSU presented challenges due to their playing 5 guys who all can score - yet he chooses to play a guy who everyone on this planet knows can't score from his position.  Why would you as a coach not want to present a lineup that poses similar challenges to the one you are speaking of with regard to OSU?

As for the "Quote of the Night," I found it odd that Wojo apparently didn't feel we gave/got max effort for 40 minutes due to being shorthanded, yet he chose to bench a guy for the entire game.

Seems a little incongruent.  Feel free to disagree.

My point is you are breaking down his sentences to extract these bits of irony or inconsistencies that aren't really there when you focus on the broader points he is making.  Your obsession with your own narrative is preventing you from seeing the forest through the trees. 

Quote from: MUSF on November 19, 2014, 08:32:19 PM
My point is you are breaking down his sentences to extract these bits of irony or inconsistencies that aren't really there when you focus on the broader points he is making.  Your obsession with your own narrative is preventing you from seeing the forest through the trees. 

Agree to disagree.  Seems to be incongruence on Wojo's part with regard to those quotes.  This doesn't mean I'm not bullish on Wojo - I'm quite bullish on him.  I expect he'll adjust accordingly as we near conference play.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 10:31:49 PM
Agree to disagree.  Seems to be incongruence on Wojo's part with regard to those quotes.  This doesn't mean I'm not bullish on Wojo - I'm quite bullish on him.  I expect he'll adjust accordingly as we near conference play.

If he doesn't adjust accordingly does that mean you are no longer bullish on Wojo? Or does that change your thinking on what our strategy should be?

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 19, 2014, 11:44:28 PM
If he doesn't adjust accordingly does that mean you are no longer bullish on Wojo? Or does that change your thinking on what our strategy should be?

I'd only stop being bullish on Wojo if he keeps with the same strategy and we are losing repeatedly to Top 50 teams, assuming the player in question isn't showing any improvement.  I just don't want a repeat of last season.

I simply don't see any scenario where Derrick should be on the floor at the same time as Carlino.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 20, 2014, 12:01:00 AM
I'd only stop being bullish on Wojo if he keeps with the same strategy and we are losing repeatedly to Top 50 teams, assuming the player in question isn't showing any improvement.  I just don't want a repeat of last season.

I simply don't see any scenario where Derrick should be on the floor at the same time as Carlino.

But here is the rub...  If Wojo sticks to the same strategy, that will make *two* major college coaches that play Derrick more than Dawson.  Instead of saying "well Buzz is being stubborn" or "Wojo is being loyal to a senior," maybe the correct answer should be "John Dawson isn't as good as I thought."

Look, you are the one that says we can't make a good enough judgement on him based on his playing time.  That cuts both ways you know.  You can't then use the same amount of limited playing time to suggest that he is better.  There is all sorts of evidence to suggest he isn't...practice observations from the new beat reporter...decisions made by coaches...

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 19, 2014, 08:23:06 PM
As for the "Quote of the Night," I found it odd that Wojo apparently didn't feel we gave/got max effort for 40 minutes due to being shorthanded, yet he chose to bench a guy for the entire game.

Seems a little incongruent.  Feel free to disagree.

Maybe Wojo, as his predecessor, feels that John isn't as talented as the other options to play him over tired legs.

That seems like the clear scenario here for me, but I know that doesn't fit your narrative.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 20, 2014, 12:01:00 AM
I'd only stop being bullish on Wojo if he keeps with the same strategy and we are losing repeatedly to Top 50 teams, assuming the player in question isn't showing any improvement.  I just don't want a repeat of last season.

I simply don't see any scenario where Derrick should be on the floor at the same time as Carlino.

This is a point worth clarifying:

In the thread last year, you said Dawson should be getting Derrick's minutes due to his upside and talent ("it" factor).

Do you feel the same way this season, or has Carlino changed that?

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on November 20, 2014, 09:18:37 AM
This is a point worth clarifying:

In the thread last year, you said Dawson should be getting Derrick's minutes due to his upside and talent ("it" factor).

Do you feel the same way this season, or has Carlino changed that?

Personally, yes, I'd rather see Dawson back up Carlino than Derrick.  However, with Carlino in the fold it isn't critical that Dawson play the point (nor should he) - last year however - it was critical that a change be made.

However, if Wojo wants to play Derrick, that's fine so long as the role is limited to 10 minutes per game as Carlino's sub.  I could handle 10 minutes of Derrick in that role.  I just don't "get" what Derrick brings to the table in a game while on the floor with Carlino (who has been the primary ball handler when they have been on the floor together.)  I feel Dawson is a very capable defender, as are JJJ and Cohen, and all 3 of those guys shoot it better than Derrick - so why have him on the floor with Carlino taking away time from more skilled/younger guys?

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 20, 2014, 07:34:03 AM

But here is the rub...  If Wojo sticks to the same strategy, that will make *two* major college coaches that play Derrick more than Dawson.  Instead of saying "well Buzz is being stubborn" or "Wojo is being loyal to a senior," maybe the correct answer should be "John Dawson isn't as good as I thought."

Look, you are the one that says we can't make a good enough judgement on him based on his playing time.  That cuts both ways you know.  You can't then use the same amount of limited playing time to suggest that he is better.  There is all sorts of evidence to suggest he isn't...practice observations from the new beat reporter...decisions made by coaches...

These are all fair points.  My issue again, is that Derrick's performance was so incredibly abysmal last season, that I find/found it highly unlikely Dawson as a 3 star recruit (same as Derrick) who as a freshman shot 4 times better than Derrick from the 3 and 2 time better from the FT line, and showed he had a nice mid-range game, in GAMES - certainly wasn't evidence enough to me to think he's worse.

Some guys aren't practice players.  Some guys aren't good summer ball players. Some guys are gamers.   Whatever the case, we were talking about some historically bad production/performance at the PG position last season, and Buzz refused to change.

Were you yourself not surprised/shocked after DAwson played so well against GTown that the next home game against Nova he got 8 minutes?

Hey everyone, I figured I should contribute to this thread like I did the first 20,000 times it was made.

(http://img.pandawhale.com/88611-beating-dead-horse-gif-South-P-ZqEc.gif)

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 20, 2014, 09:29:17 AM
Personally, yes, I'd rather see Dawson back up Carlino than Derrick.  However, with Carlino in the fold it isn't critical that Dawson play the point (nor should he) - last year however - it was critical that a change be made.

However, if Wojo wants to play Derrick, that's fine so long as the role is limited to 10 minutes per game as Carlino's sub.  I could handle 10 minutes of Derrick in that role.  I just don't "get" what Derrick brings to the table in a game while on the floor with Carlino (who has been the primary ball handler when they have been on the floor together.)  I feel Dawson is a very capable defender, as are JJJ and Cohen, and all 3 of those guys shoot it better than Derrick - so why have him on the floor with Carlino taking away time from more skilled/younger guys?

I don't want to be a dick, but you have repeatedly stated that Dawson is better than Derrick.

Why does it matter if it's only 10mpg? If Dawson is better, shouldn't he get the minutes no matter what?

Am I missing something?

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 20, 2014, 09:29:17 AM
Personally, yes, I'd rather see Dawson back up Carlino than Derrick.  However, with Carlino in the fold it isn't critical that Dawson play the point (nor should he) - last year however - it was critical that a change be made.

However, if Wojo wants to play Derrick, that's fine so long as the role is limited to 10 minutes per game as Carlino's sub.  I could handle 10 minutes of Derrick in that role.  I just don't "get" what Derrick brings to the table in a game while on the floor with Carlino (who has been the primary ball handler when they have been on the floor together.)  I feel Dawson is a very capable defender, as are JJJ and Cohen, and all 3 of those guys shoot it better than Derrick - so why have him on the floor with Carlino taking away time from more skilled/younger guys?

Derrick is in there when Carlino is because of his deadeye perimeter shooting, his court vision, and his penetrating jaw dropping moves to the bucket.

Last year:

1.Nobody said that Derrick was a good point guard.
2.Some (Buzz, myself, Sultan, Tower, TAMU and others) did say that Derrick was a better point guard than John Dawson. Because of that opinion, Buzz was accused of intentionally throwing games and we were ridiculed as slurpers who knew nothing about basketball.

This year:

1.Nobody has said that Derrick is a good point guard.
2.Some (Wojo, myself, Sultan Tower, TAMU and others) have said that Derrick is a better point guard than John Dawson.

Possible conclusions:

Ners, Willie, Mojo, etc., are right. Buzz and Wojo are either basketball idiots, trying to lose or (yikes) both. And those who agree with Buzz and Wojo are know nothing slurpers.

Or

Ners, Willie, Mojo, etc., watch but do not see.

For whatever reason, and I think it's safe to assume it's a basketball reason, both Wojo and BW think DeWill is a better option than JD.  We know you've got incredible basketball acumen Ners, as you remind this board time and again, but for f%@$'s sake....don't you think that maybe the head coaches and all their assistants, with all of their years of evaluating talent, have it right?

The Derrick/Dawson debate is now getting to the point of silliness. Both have plusses and minuses. Both are in the program and are trying to improve. IMO, right now they are about equal, and Derrick gets the edge because of his seniority.

Some of you are just getting your jollies on Ners by denigrating Dawson, who really has not played near enough to warrant the criticism of his game as compared to Derrick. Well Ok, Tis the season to be jolly. Maybe the debate should shift from Derrick/Dawson to why Derrick is pulling minutes from JJJ and Du. Wilson, who both are way more talented than Derrick--not even close. And anybody can see that. Not a slam against Derrick--he does the best he can with his skills. But my sense is that most agree he is a backup PG that should not garner the minutes he is getting. And why he and Carlino are out there together is baffling to a lot of people.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 20, 2014, 09:35:02 AM
These are all fair points.  My issue again, is that Derrick's performance was so incredibly abysmal last season, that I find/found it highly unlikely Dawson as a 3 star recruit (same as Derrick) who as a freshman shot 4 times better than Derrick from the 3 and 2 time better from the FT line, and showed he had a nice mid-range game, in GAMES - certainly wasn't evidence enough to me to think he's worse.

You seem to omit results for FG in general, why is that?  
Is it because of this:
Derrick: .391%
John: .320%


It is easy to pick and choose what stats to use to fit a narrative.

And also, Derrick is shooting .500% from 3 this year. So I guess you just have to go with the hot hand.  He's a gamer.   ;)



I like Derrick, he has some skills. I like Dawson, think he has some potential to be a good role player for us.  You can always use extra PGs.   I believe we can trust Wojo and his coaching staff to decide the best way to utilize each player. They are a lot smarter than us.

Quote from: willie warrior on November 20, 2014, 09:53:38 AM
The Derrick/Dawson debate is now getting to the point of silliness. Both have plusses and minuses. Both are in the program and are trying to improve. IMO, right now they are about equal, and Derrick gets the edge because of his seniority.

Some of you are just getting your jollies on Ners by denigrating Dawson, who really has not played near enough to warrant the criticism of his game as compared to Derrick. Well Ok, Tis the season to be jolly. Maybe the debate should shift from Derrick/Dawson to why Derrick is pulling minutes from JJJ and Du. Wilson, who both are way more talented than Derrick--not even close. And anybody can see that. Not a slam against Derrick--he does the best he can with his skills. But my sense is that most agree he is a backup PG that should not garner the minutes he is getting. And why he and Carlino are out there together is baffling to a lot of people.

Where has there been "denigrating" of Dawson?  I've seen comparisons of his game to Dawson where one is thought to not be as good as the other, but no where do I see posters here tearing Dawson apart.

Quote from: WarriorInNYC on November 20, 2014, 10:08:01 AM
Where has there been "denigrating" of Dawson?  I've seen comparisons of his game to Dawson where one is thought to not be as good as the other, but no where do I see posters here tearing Dawson apart.

Well, you don't have 975 minutes of game action from Dawson last season to tear apart or draw conclusions from.

Quote from: MU B2002 on November 20, 2014, 09:54:16 AM
You seem to omit results for FG in general, why is that? 
Is it because of this:
Derrick: .391%
John: .320%


It is easy to pick and choose what stats to use to fit a narrative.

And also, Derrick is shooting .500% from 3 this year. So I guess you just have to go with the hot hand.  He's a gamer.   ;)



I like Derrick, he has some skills. I like Dawson, think he has some potential to be a good role player for us.  You can always use extra PGs.   I believe we can trust Wojo and his coaching staff to decide the best way to utilize each player. They are a lot smarter than us.

Derrick's FG percentage was compiled by taking 90% of his shots within 3 feet of the basket.  Again, stats are only so good at times.  I'd sure as hell hope a guy can convert at 39% from point blank range.

Good to see that we are finally getting around to discussing this issue. We've ignored it for too long.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 20, 2014, 09:51:11 AM
Last year:

1.Nobody said that Derrick was a good point guard.
2.Some (Buzz, myself, Sultan, Tower, TAMU and others) did say that Derrick was a better point guard than John Dawson. Because of that opinion, Buzz was accused of intentionally throwing games and we were ridiculed as slurpers who knew nothing about basketball.

This year:

1.Nobody has said that Derrick is a good point guard.
2.Some (Wojo, myself, Sultan Tower, TAMU and others) have said that Derrick is a better point guard than John Dawson.

Possible conclusions:

Ners, Willie, Mojo, etc., are right. Buzz and Wojo are either basketball idiots, trying to lose or (yikes) both. And those who agree with Buzz and Wojo are know nothing slurpers.

Or

Ners, Willie, Mojo, etc., watch but do not see.

Nice synopsis Lenny.  Help me understand, when you watch Derrick at PG what do you see? 

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 20, 2014, 10:39:34 AM
Nice synopsis Lenny.  Help me understand, when you watch Derrick at PG what do you see? 

Let me try it this way.

Ners, We ALL agree with you on the problem (I think).

We disagree on the solution.  Most of us (again, I think) feel that Buzz and Wojo have a much better handle than you do.

Quote from: Ellenson for an mu-rara on November 20, 2014, 10:52:01 AM
Let me try it this way.

Ners, We ALL agree with you on the problem (I think).

We disagree on the solution.  Most of us (again, I think) feel that Buzz and Wojo have a much better handle than you do.

Sounds good.  But I won't concede on Buzz and his decision-making last season.   I'm not going to pass judgement on Wojo until conference play and how minutes are allocated.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 20, 2014, 09:35:02 AM
Were you yourself not surprised/shocked after DAwson played so well against GTown that the next home game against Nova he got 8 minutes?

Yes.  But instead of coming to the conclusion that "Buzz is a dumb coach" or "Buzz is being stubborn," I came to the conclusion "John Dawson was a flash in the pan, and may not be as good as the Georgetown game indicated."

And I think Wojo's use of him so far indicates that I may have been correct.

So in a few months after derrick graduates are we still gonna debate this? Cause I can't really remember what scoop was about before this debate.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 20, 2014, 09:51:11 AM
Last year:

1.Nobody said that Derrick was a good point guard.
2.Some (Buzz, myself, Sultan, Tower, TAMU and others) did say that Derrick was a better point guard than John Dawson. Because of that opinion, Buzz was accused of intentionally throwing games and we were ridiculed as slurpers who knew nothing about basketball.

This year:

1.Nobody has said that Derrick is a good point guard.
2.Some (Wojo, myself, Sultan Tower, TAMU and others) have said that Derrick is a better point guard than John Dawson.

Possible conclusions:

Ners, Willie, Mojo, etc., are right. Buzz and Wojo are either basketball idiots, trying to lose or (yikes) both. And those who agree with Buzz and Wojo are know nothing slurpers.

Or

Ners, Willie, Mojo, etc., watch but do not see.

Sorry Lenny, I never said Wojo was an idiot--you just did. I have strongly criticized Buzz as a bonehead, stubborn, etc.--don't ever recall saying he was an idiot. You just did. I see and observe. Speaking of watches, how's yours ticking?

By the way, my criticism of  Phony Cowboy centered around a number of issues from prior years, not hardly on playing Dawson over Wilson. Please don't lump me in with the rest of those you are trying to slander over that issue.

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 20, 2014, 10:36:27 AM
Well, you don't have 975 minutes of game action from Dawson last season to tear apart or draw conclusions from.

Derrick's FG percentage was compiled by taking 90% of his shots within 3 feet of the basket.  Again, stats are only so good at times.  I'd sure as hell hope a guy can convert at 39% from point blank range.

Where are you getting "975 minutes" for Dawson from last year? Did not realize he averaged 30 mpg.

Quote from: willie warrior on November 20, 2014, 11:05:04 AM
Where are you getting "975 minutes" for Dawson from last year? Did not realize he averaged 30 mpg.

He is referring to D Wil. 

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on November 20, 2014, 10:59:09 AM
So in a few months after derrick graduates are we still gonna debate this? Cause I can't really remember what scoop was about before this debate.

LOL.  Good point. To answer the question:  Nope.  Will be nice for everyone come April.  But unfortunately the board will go quite stale without the lightening rod of Derrick. 

How on God's green earth is this conversation still going on? I mean, c'mon.  Just ban the guy and let's move on with life.  It has made these boards unreadable. 

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 20, 2014, 11:13:25 AM
LOL.  Good point. To answer the question:  Nope.  Will be nice for everyone come April.  But unfortunately the board will go quite stale without the lightening rod of Derrick. 

Posters had other topics to debate before Derrick, and will have topics to debate post Derrick.  (Most posters at least.)

Quote from: NersEllenson on November 20, 2014, 11:13:25 AM
LOL.  Good point. To answer the question:  Nope.  Will be nice for everyone come April.  But unfortunately the board will go quite stale without the lightening rod of Derrick. 

So there is an end in sight? There won't be threads started that might be like "I told all of you!" If Dawson or Duane score 15 in a game that bring up this debate again?

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on November 20, 2014, 11:15:56 AM
So there is an end in sight? There won't be threads started that might be like "I told all of you!" If Dawson or Duane score 15 in a game that bring up this debate again?

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on November 20, 2014, 10:59:09 AM
So in a few months after derrick graduates are we still gonna debate this? Cause I can't really remember what scoop was about before this debate.

Just ignore the f***ing thread.  Seriously you think your nagging is going to change people's behavior?

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on November 20, 2014, 11:25:21 AM

Just ignore the f***ing thread.  Seriously you think your nagging is going to change people's behavior?

Well why are you so salty? Get up on the wrong side of the bed? I just wanted some reassurance that scoop could have some diverse arguments again apparantly that offended you?