MUScoop

There were a number of highs and lows from this past season.  Amazingly enough, many of us still thought MU could go dancing as late as March 4th, had they been able to beat Providence and St. John's to end the regular season.

Honorable mention moments from the off-season:
Coach Wojo is hired.
Shaka Smart is a 'done deal'
All the current players, Cohen & Noskowiak re-up.

I had to vote for Kentucky crushing the Badgers' hopes and dreams.  That was a good night!   ;D

I'll be here as long as they'll have me and not messin' with happy goes to VAG Tech.

It was this.
(http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/social_assets/cbb/12_28_13/samford%20dunk.gif)

Burton's dunk as shown.  No question.

Quote from: MUeng on June 02, 2014, 11:48:42 PM
Burton's dunk as shown.  No question.

Second

When this God awful season came to an end so we could stop the perpetual disappointment that was each game. 

Quote from: keefe on June 02, 2014, 11:49:48 PM
Second

Third.

You can tell this season was depressing when we lost in 3 of the choices and weren't even involved in the game in another choice...

I'll vote Deonte's dunk but I also liked the Xavier game at home because Jake and Derrick played well, much to the chagrin of some of the people sitting around me.

The only W listed: GT losing.

(http://binaryapi.ap.org/20c52ff555d846619068417eebaeb07c/460x.jpg)

Quote from: wadesworld on June 03, 2014, 12:28:01 AM
Third.

Yo

Hadn't seen that view of the dunk before.   From other views, it seems like Burton slams the defender out of the way, but it's apparent that the defender turned and gave way after being grazed. 

And to think, had the defender not been there at all, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The Xavier game at home was the only really good game in my opinion.  The comebacks to force OT were more like brief thrills amidst a sea of frustration.

Buzzo getting his phony downhome lonesome cowboy ass out of town.

Even though we lost the trip to Vegas for the New Mexico game was a blast. There were a ton of MU fans there and I finally learned how to play craps which allowed me to walk away from the blackjack table where I tend to lose too much.

Quote from: NotBuzzWilliams on June 03, 2014, 01:08:22 AM
You can tell this season was depressing when we lost in 3 of the choices and weren't even involved in the game in another choice...

I'll vote Deonte's dunk but I also liked the Xavier game at home because Jake and Derrick played well, much to the chagrin shock of some of the people sitting around me.

Fixed.  If only that was true all season...it wouldn't have been a depressing season.

Quote from: Ners on June 03, 2014, 10:33:32 AM
Fixed.  If only that was true all season...it wouldn't have been a depressing season.

It's almost like you're hinting at something.  You wouldn't care to elaborate, would you?

Quote from: NotBuzzWilliams on June 03, 2014, 02:31:01 PM
It's almost like you're hinting at something.  You wouldn't care to elaborate, would you?

You sure you aren't Buzz Williams...because let's face it...his favorite game of the season probably was Xavier at home for the very reasons you mention - Derrick and Jake played well perhaps for the ONLY time all season in the same game - and for just one game...it made Buzz actually look like he'd been right about sticking with them all season.   Unfortunately, that game also was pretty much the last game we got any kind of decent contribution from Derrick.  His last 5 of the season were total clunkers..and to think we went to OT in 2 of those games...if only he could have contributed just 5 points a game in those last 5..instead of 2.0ppg...heck we might have made the NIT.

Quote from: Ners on June 03, 2014, 06:48:58 PM
You sure you aren't Buzz Williams...because let's face it...his favorite game of the season probably was Xavier at home for the very reasons you mention - Derrick and Jake played well perhaps for the ONLY time all season in the same game - and for just one game...it made Buzz actually look like he'd been right about sticking with them all season.   Unfortunately, that game also was pretty much the last game we got any kind of decent contribution from Derrick.  His last 5 of the season were total clunkers..and to think we went to OT in 2 of those games...if only he could have contributed just 5 points a game in those last 5..instead of 2.0ppg...heck we might have made the NIT.

We're never going back.  The past is in the past.
(http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131214010422/degrassi/images/6/67/Frozen-Elsa-Let-it-Go-snowflakes.gif)

I guess this kind of sums up what kind of basketball season it was. Looking back the best moment for me was watching the Cal State Fullerton dance squad. I said to my wife that they were really good. She made some kind of comment that I was just like looking at young women. The next time out the announcer said here is our division one champion dance team, which led me to saying "see I told you they were good." They also were very good looking.

Quote from: bilsu on June 03, 2014, 08:09:37 PM
I guess this kind of sums up what kind of basketball season it was. Looking back the best moment for me was watching the Cal State Fullerton dance squad. I said to my wife that they were really good. She made some kind of comment that I was just like looking at young women. The next time out the announcer said here is our division one champion dance team, which led me to saying "see I told you they were good." They also were very good looking.

You can't tell this story without providing photographic evidence.

Needs to be posted at least once:

Finding out Derrick will no longer be the starting pg.

Quote from: TheBurrEffect on June 04, 2014, 12:45:19 AM
Needs to be posted at least once:

Finding out Derrick will no longer be the starting pg.

How is that necessary?

Also, even though I agree that Derrick will probably not start next season, you have no idea what Wojo's rotations will be. I don't even think Wojo knows.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 04, 2014, 01:07:23 AM
How is that necessary?

Also, even though I agree that Derrick will probably not start next season, you have no idea what Wojo's rotations will be. I don't even think Wojo knows.

No starting pg would leave a team to play a backup role on another. Derrick will be used in a situation defensive role only.

Burton dunk by a very wide margin.

You left out the post-TO 3/4 court heave by Derrick Wilson...If we were voting for "well that about sums it up" of the season, it'd be that.

As it were, Burton, no question.

Quote from: NotBuzzWilliams on June 03, 2014, 07:32:24 PM
We're never going back.  The past is in the past.
(http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131214010422/degrassi/images/6/67/Frozen-Elsa-Let-it-Go-snowflakes.gif)

corpses float at sea
bodies scattered on mountains
we never look back

-- Anon. (Tokkotai Jisei)

Quote from: TheBurrEffect on June 04, 2014, 01:08:49 AM
No starting pg would leave a team to play a backup role on another. Derrick will be used in a situation defensive role only.

1. You don't know that.
2. It absolutely happens all the time. Usually it occurs when a starter from a lesser team transfers to a stronger team.
3. Carlino could also start at the 2.

Again, I agree that Derrick is most likely not starting. But what you posted was an unnecessary attack not an opinion on playing time.

Quote from: Not Chris Otule's Coach on June 04, 2014, 02:39:49 PM
You left out the post-TO 3/4 court heave by Derrick Wilson...If we were voting for "well that about sums it up" of the season, it'd be that.

As it were, Burton, no question.

just think if that shot counted DW's 3 pt % would have doubled

Quote from: Chucklehead on June 04, 2014, 04:17:43 PM
just think if that shot counted DW's 3 pt % would have doubled

Not a math major.

Quote from: wadesworld on June 04, 2014, 04:22:46 PM
Not a math major.

Pretty well played Wade.  Then again going 2 for 15 would put him at 13.3%...nearly double the 7.1% resulting from the 1 for 14 performance turned in last season.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 04, 2014, 03:57:18 PM
1. You don't know that.
2. It absolutely happens all the time. Usually it occurs when a starter from a lesser team transfers to a stronger team.
3. Carlino could also start at the 2.

Again, I agree that Derrick is most likely not starting. But what you posted was an unnecessary attack not an opinion on playing time.

Except BYU was an NCAA team last season...much better than our team that failed to qualify for the NCAA...much less the NIT.  Will be a major shock if somehow we can make the NCAA tourney this upcoming season after graduating our two leading scorers, along with a 5th year starting shooting guard, and 6th year starting center.

Replacing all of that with Sandy Cohen, Matt Carllno, and Luke Fischer after December 13...team should be lucky to make the NIT next season considering what we lost from last season.  Thankfully, we have a very experienced point guard to orchestrate our offense again this upcoming season.

Quote from: Ners on June 04, 2014, 11:25:35 PM
Except BYU was an NCAA team last season...much better than our team that failed to qualify for the NCAA...much less the NIT.  

Which is why I said usually. It's also why I said that Derrick will not be starting next season, IMHO. Again, issue is never with the thought that Derrick isn't good, it is with the manner in which that thought is expressed. If you offer an opinion, great. If you make definitive statements which have no facts to back it, not so great.

Quote from: Ners on June 04, 2014, 11:25:35 PM
Will be a major shock if somehow we can make the NCAA tourney this upcoming season after graduating our two leading scorers, along with a 5th year starting shooting guard, and 6th year starting center.

Replacing all of that with Sandy Cohen, Matt Carllno, and Luke Fischer after December 13...team should be lucky to make the NIT next season considering what we lost from last season.  Thankfully, we have a very experienced point guard to orchestrate our offense again this upcoming season.

I don't think it will be a major shock. We had two terrible point guards last season. We have, in theory, fixed that problem by bringing in Carlino and to a lesser extent Duane. That was our biggest hole last season and it has hopefully now been filled.

But as you pointed out, we are losing a lot. So my expectations are tempered. I expect a finish as a fringe bubble team who makes the NIT. I am hoping for more. If we hadn't brought in Carlino, my expectations would be even lower.

And no, even if we are world beaters next season and win the national championship and the ghost of Al McGuire comes to dance country roads on Virginia Tech's home court, it will not prove that Derrick shouldn't have started last season. I know that is what you were hinting at. All it will prove is that Carlino/Duane/Dawson (whomever is primarily playing the point, assuming it is not Derrick) is a better PG than Derrick  DURING THE 2014-2015 SEASON. It proves nothing about LAST SEASON.

And just to show I am not only logical but also fair: Even if Derrick starts at point next season and becomes an All American with punishing drives and game changing defense, it will still NOT prove that he should have started last season. All it will prove was that he was a better point guard than Carlino/Duane/Dawson DURING THE 2014-2015 SEASON.

The 2013-2014 season is gone. In the books. We will never know if Derrick or Dawson should have been the starter. Frankly, it doesn't matter anymore.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 05, 2014, 12:42:41 AM
Which is why I said usually. It's also why I said that Derrick will not be starting next season, IMHO. Again, issue is never with the thought that Derrick isn't good, it is with the manner in which that thought is expressed. If you offer an opinion, great. If you make definitive statements which have no facts to back it, not so great.

I don't think it will be a major shock. We had two terrible point guards last season. We have, in theory, fixed that problem by bringing in Carlino and to a lesser extent Duane. That was our biggest hole last season and it has hopefully now been filled.

But as you pointed out, we are losing a lot. So my expectations are tempered. I expect a finish as a fringe bubble team who makes the NIT. I am hoping for more. If we hadn't brought in Carlino, my expectations would be even lower.

And no, even if we are world beaters next season and win the national championship and the ghost of Al McGuire comes to dance country roads on Virginia Tech's home court, it will not prove that Derrick shouldn't have started last season. I know that is what you were hinting at. All it will prove is that Carlino/Duane/Dawson (whomever is primarily playing the point, assuming it is not Derrick) is a better PG than Derrick  DURING THE 2014-2015 SEASON. It proves nothing about LAST SEASON.

And just to show I am not only logical but also fair: Even if Derrick starts at point next season and becomes an All American with punishing drives and game changing defense, it will still NOT prove that he should have started last season. All it will prove was that he was a better point guard than Carlino/Duane/Dawson DURING THE 2014-2015 SEASON.

The 2013-2014 season is gone. In the books. We will never know if Derrick or Dawson should have been the starter. Frankly, it doesn't matter anymore.

17-15 and missing the NIT last season proves all that needs to be proved.  Buzz's allocation of minutes and playing time was absurd, and thus the 17-15 record.  If he genuinely thought he could polish that turd of a starting, 30+ minute per game backcourt into an NCAA tourney team....he was so far in outer space...that's why I'm glad he's gone.

Todd Mayo shouldn't really have to go to the head coach and ask for more playing time.  Odd that the assistant coaches saw Todd should play more...but couldn't go to Buzz and say anything...but rather that Todd needed to do it...

Why didn't Burton get more playing time?  Why did Buzz yank Burton with 7 minutes left in the last game of the season when he was killing X...only to bring him back with 30 seconds in the game....and having gone from a lead to a deficit with him on the bench?

Why did Buzz continue to insist on giving more minutes to Derrick than any other player on the team when he showed zero improvement over the course of the whole season, the losses continued to rack up..Buzz himself conceded we were playing 4 on 5?

Buzz had a lot of better options last season...he simply refused to play them..or max their minutes.  There was zero reason for that team to miss the freaking NIT with as much talent as it had.

Best moment was the end of last season meant the opportunity of a better next season. Bert did a lot for MU but last season was the absolute worst coaching I have seen in a number of years. It is great to have that behind us. The team deserved more.

Quote from: Ners on June 05, 2014, 07:58:35 AM
17-15 and missing the NIT last season proves all that needs to be proved.  Buzz's allocation of minutes and playing time was absurd, and thus the 17-15 record.  If he genuinely thought he could polish that turd of a starting, 30+ minute per game backcourt into an NCAA tourney team....he was so far in outer space...that's why I'm glad he's gone.

Todd Mayo shouldn't really have to go to the head coach and ask for more playing time.  Odd that the assistant coaches saw Todd should play more...but couldn't go to Buzz and say anything...but rather that Todd needed to do it...

Why didn't Burton get more playing time?  Why did Buzz yank Burton with 7 minutes left in the last game of the season when he was killing X...only to bring him back with 30 seconds in the game....and having gone from a lead to a deficit with him on the bench?

Why did Buzz continue to insist on giving more minutes to Derrick than any other player on the team when he showed zero improvement over the course of the whole season, the losses continued to rack up..Buzz himself conceded we were playing 4 on 5?

Buzz had a lot of better options last season...he simply refused to play them..or max their minutes.  There was zero reason for that team to miss the freaking NIT with as much talent as it had.

(http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/2014-03/enhanced/webdr03/13/7/anigif_enhanced-buzz-26296-1394709207-4.gif)

Dear people of Scoop. I am sorry. This one was on me. He had only hinted at it and I took the bait. He had been so good recently. I thought he was maybe ready to give up definitive statements with no factual basis. I thought maybe he had learned the difference between opinion and fact. I thought he would at least be willing to stop using logical fallacies. I was wrong. Sorry everybody.

I hope you didn't have Richard Taylor for your PHIL 1 class. He would have thrown his textbook at you.

Quote from: wadesworld on June 04, 2014, 04:22:46 PM
Not a math major.

so you require teal? unnatural carnal knowledge me then, thought I just read complaints that teal shouldn't ever be necessary

Quote from: NotBuzzWilliams on June 03, 2014, 02:31:01 PM
It's almost like you're hinting at something.  You wouldn't care to elaborate, would you?

Were you the guy in Jurassic Park who disabled the confinement systems for the dinosaurs?

Quote from: Ners on June 05, 2014, 07:58:35 AM
17-15 and missing the NIT last season proves all that needs to be proved.  Buzz's allocation of minutes and playing time was absurd, and thus the 17-15 record.  If he genuinely thought he could polish that turd of a starting, 30+ minute per game backcourt into an NCAA tourney team....he was so far in outer space...that's why I'm glad he's gone.

Todd Mayo shouldn't really have to go to the head coach and ask for more playing time.  Odd that the assistant coaches saw Todd should play more...but couldn't go to Buzz and say anything...but rather that Todd needed to do it...

Why didn't Burton get more playing time?  Why did Buzz yank Burton with 7 minutes left in the last game of the season when he was killing X...only to bring him back with 30 seconds in the game....and having gone from a lead to a deficit with him on the bench?

Why did Buzz continue to insist on giving more minutes to Derrick than any other player on the team when he showed zero improvement over the course of the whole season, the losses continued to rack up..Buzz himself conceded we were playing 4 on 5?

Buzz had a lot of better options last season...he simply refused to play them..or max their minutes.  There was zero reason for that team to miss the freaking NIT with as much talent as it had.

My favorite moment was when NERS decided he didn't need to repeat the same thing over and over and over................................oh, nevermind.

Quote from: leever on June 05, 2014, 10:53:56 AM
My favorite moment was when NERS decided he didn't need to repeat the same thing over and over and over................................oh, nevermind.

And my favorite moment would be if the usual four or five would finally get over it and stop trying to make all kinds of excuses for crappy coaching job Buzz did last season...he had better options..period..just chose not to play them/max their minutes due to his oversized ego...which ultimately is what led him to leave...when he couldn't get every thing under the sun his way...

Quote from: Ners on June 05, 2014, 02:40:30 PM
And my favorite moment would be if the usual four or five would finally get over it and stop trying to make all kinds of excuses for crappy coaching job Buzz did last season...he had better options..period..just chose not to play them/max their minutes due to his oversized ego...which ultimately is what led him to leave...when he couldn't get every thing under the sun his way...

(http://ifevolutionworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/BangHeadHere.gif)

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 05, 2014, 03:07:01 PM
(http://ifevolutionworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/BangHeadHere.gif)

Thank you for the cubicle art. It is now hanging on my wall

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 05, 2014, 03:07:01 PM
(http://ifevolutionworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/BangHeadHere.gif)

Not sure what you are saying here; Ners should use the stress reliever, or you should in your constant defense of El Buzzo's poor job last year.

Quote from: NotAnAlum on June 03, 2014, 09:11:33 AM
The Xavier game at home was the only really good game in my opinion.  The comebacks to force OT were more like brief thrills amidst a sea of frustration.

This.  This game put back in my mind that this team could make a run to get into the tourney.  Yeah, the game wasn't very dramatic at all, but it made me believe (also kind of unfortunately) that we had the capability to make things happen.  I remember leaving the bar after that win feeling very, very good (and a little drunk but that's besides the point).

Quote from: willie warrior on June 05, 2014, 04:07:33 PM
Not sure what you are saying here; Ners should use the stress reliever, or you should in your constant defense of El Buzzo's poor job last year.

When you can't attack the argument..you attack the person Willie...things would drop on last season so long as people stopped trying to make ridiculous points suggesting Carlino wouldn't start over Derrick...and that he simply transferred here to be at a better team/program...when in reality..he left a team..BYU...that was much better than our team last year....and we graduated 4 guys with a combined 20 years of college ball experience....including 3 starters, and our leading scorer...not even one of those 3 starters...why in God's name would Carlino transfer to such a team...if he didn't think there'd be ample playing time available?

Quote from: Ners on June 05, 2014, 06:51:39 PM
When you can't attack the argument..you attack the person Willie...things would drop on last season so long as people stopped trying to make ridiculous points suggesting Carlino wouldn't start over Derrick...and that he simply transferred here to be at a better team/program...when in reality..he left a team..BYU...that was much better than our team last year....and we graduated 4 guys with a combined 20 years of college ball experience....including 3 starters, and our leading scorer...not even one of those 3 starters...why in God's name would Carlino transfer to such a team...if he didn't think there'd be ample playing time available?

Are you this dumb?  Nobody said Carlino wouldn't start over Derrick last year if he was at Marquette.  We are saying...get this one, Ners...Matt Carlino was not at Marquette last year, so him starting this year could not have possibly changed Derrick starting last year, because, well, MATT CARLINO DID NOT ATTEND MARQUETTE UNIVERSITY LAST YEAR!  I can't believe I actually have to spell that out for you.  It is not hard to understand that.  Matt Carlino would not have changed Derrick starting last year.  LeBron James would not have changed Derrick starting last year.  Kevin Durant, Magic Johnson, Derrick Rose, Steve Nash.  None of them could have possibly changed Derrick starting last year.  None of them went to Marquette University last year.  I don't know how you don't understand this.

And your point about ample playing time for Carlino is silly.  The guy got 28 minutes/game last year.  He isn't transferring for playing time, he had plenty of that.

You are not very intelligent.  (Can you attack the person if you have already attacked the argument?  I don't know what your rules are.)

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 05, 2014, 08:31:55 AM
(http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/2014-03/enhanced/webdr03/13/7/anigif_enhanced-buzz-26296-1394709207-4.gif)

Dear people of Scoop. I am sorry. This one was on me. He had only hinted at it and I took the bait. He had been so good recently. I thought he was maybe ready to give up definitive statements with no factual basis. I thought maybe he had learned the difference between opinion and fact. I thought he would at least be willing to stop using logical fallacies. I was wrong. Sorry everybody.

I hope you didn't have Richard Taylor for your PHIL 1 class. He would have thrown his textbook at you.

Not sure I agree with this. If you distill Ners' diatribe down to its pithy essence he is simply saying that Bert did a horrible job last year. On that there can be no disagreement.

Sure there can.   

Quote from: tower912 on June 05, 2014, 07:17:44 PM
Sure there can.   

Well, of course there can be disagreement. Hitler, after all, was wrong to invade Poland.

Again, the chewy nougat center of the Ners message is that Bert was terrible last year. Would you argue otherwise?

He wasn't able to create the same alchemy he had in the previous 5 years.   It was clearly not up to the standard set the previous 5 years.   But I truly believe he was trying to win every game. 

Quote from: Ners on June 05, 2014, 06:51:39 PM
When you can't attack the argument..you attack the person Willie...things would drop on last season so long as people stopped trying to make ridiculous points suggesting Carlino wouldn't start over Derrick...and that he simply transferred here to be at a better team/program...when in reality..he left a team..BYU...that was much better than our team last year....and we graduated 4 guys with a combined 20 years of college ball experience....including 3 starters, and our leading scorer...not even one of those 3 starters...why in God's name would Carlino transfer to such a team...if he didn't think there'd be ample playing time available?

The head banging gif was for me. Not sure where I attacked you but I apologize if you feel attacked.

Quote from: keefe on June 05, 2014, 07:15:33 PM
Not sure I agree with this. If you distill Ners' diatribe down to its pithy essence he is simply saying that Bert did a horrible job last year. On that there can be no disagreement.

Well, by definition, "Bert did a horrible job last year" is an opinion. It happens to be an opinion that I agree with.

The logical fallacy I was referring to was the notion that bringing in Carlino for the 2014-2015 season somehow proves that Derrick shouldn't have started in the 2013-2014 season. That is a huge logical jump.

Quote from: Ners on June 05, 2014, 07:58:35 AM


Buzz had a lot of better options last season...he simply refused to play them..or max their minutes.  There was zero reason for that team to miss the freaking NIT with as much talent as it had.

Missing the fracking NIT? Really? The fracking NIT? Who the frack cares? Minnesota worries about making the fracking NIT. Penn State worries about making the fracking NIT. We had a down year last year after 3 great ones. Happens at all top programs. And when top programs have a down year they don't worry about making the fracking NIT. The season's a failure the moment you don't make the NCAAs. Whining about not making the losers tournament is for losers. Can't believe a once proud MU fan who cheered us to the brink of becoming an elite program is bitching that our inevitable down year (every program has em once in a while) didn't produce a bid to the fracking NIT. What the frack has happened to you, Ners?

Its ending.

When Buzz quit

Quote from: wadesworld on June 05, 2014, 07:07:12 PM
Are you this dumb?  Nobody said Carlino wouldn't start over Derrick last year if he was at Marquette.  We are saying...get this one, Ners...Matt Carlino was not at Marquette last year, so him starting this year could not have possibly changed Derrick starting last year, because, well, MATT CARLINO DID NOT ATTEND MARQUETTE UNIVERSITY LAST YEAR!  I can't believe I actually have to spell that out for you.  It is not hard to understand that.  Matt Carlino would not have changed Derrick starting last year.  LeBron James would not have changed Derrick starting last year.  Kevin Durant, Magic Johnson, Derrick Rose, Steve Nash.  None of them could have possibly changed Derrick starting last year.  None of them went to Marquette University last year.  I don't know how you don't understand this.

And your point about ample playing time for Carlino is silly.  The guy got 28 minutes/game last year.  He isn't transferring for playing time, he had plenty of that.

You are not very intelligent.  (Can you attack the person if you have already attacked the argument?  I don't know what your rules are.)

Ahh no...I'm not that dumb...I don't craft these posts to perfect grammar as it is a message board...but I'd think a person with just average intelligence could understand the point:  There are about 5 posters here who all last season stood by Buzz, said his teams always got better later in the season, he played the guys he though gave him best chance to win, didn't have better options...and all the other excuses made...TAMU being one of those 5.  TAMU in this thread jumped a poster who said Derrick wouldn't start this upcoming year and will simply be a role player off the bench - by saying you don't know that..there's no guarantee Carlino will start over Derrick this upcoming year, etc....The POINT WADES...is that even still...with Carlino on the freaking roster now...TAMU still has to broach and float the "logical" position that even though Carlino is here..it doesn't necessarily mean Derrick won't start...okay...I get that statement...if you want to truly look at it through the crucible of the lens of Phil 101...but let's give it up already...if Derrick starts again next season...and we just brought in a 5th year senior transfer at his position....it certainly would seem to defy all real world logic.

And beyond that...we all know Derrick has no business being a starting PG on a high major team.  He's a good role player, that should get 5-10 minutes a game maximum...as he did his first two years.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 05, 2014, 09:57:55 PM
Missing the fracking NIT? Really? The fracking NIT? Who the frack cares? Minnesota worries about making the fracking NIT. Penn State worries about making the fracking NIT. We had a down year last year after 3 great ones. Happens at all top programs. And when top programs have a down year they don't worry about making the fracking NIT. The season's a failure the moment you don't make the NCAAs. Whining about not making the losers tournament is for losers. Can't believe a once proud MU fan who cheered us to the brink of becoming an elite program is bitching that our inevitable down year (every program has em once in a while) didn't produce a bid to the fracking NIT. What the frack has happened to you, Ners?

Lenny....yes..it was a total and complete disgrace..albeit a fitting end to the turd of a season Buzz coached us to...to MISS the NIT.  To not even be selected to the NIT??  THat's about as big of kick in the balls as you can get...for a team that had ZERO business missing the NCAA tourney...and was picked as preseason Big East Champ, Preseason Top 20 in virtually every single poll that existed.

I'm still a proud MU fan...and thought Buzz was gonna be as good as Al...but he proved and turned out to be a nutcase.  

The funny thing is Buzz used to always trumpet how little returning talent he had on the roster..when he was trying to build his case for what an underdog he should have been in the early Years...always citing the total returning letterwinners aggregate combined letters earned..when those numbers were low...as in DJO and Buycks year...and even the Jimmy/Jae years....then..last season...he returns more letter winners than at any other time in his tenure...all of HIS guys...and he just coached them to a 17-15 finish...no wins over Top 25 teams...and not even an NIT berth...and oddly Buzz never spoke about how experienced this team was..of guys he recruited...never trumpeted the 26 returning years of experience.  It was awful...and the fact neither Jamil nor Davante even thanked him on Senior Day..while thanking everyone else..assistants, trainers, academic staff...spoke volumes about how he lost the team.  Not to mention if he were here.. Steve Taylor and JJJ would have bailed on him...and I'm sure Dawson gave it some consideration too.

Quote from: tower912 on June 05, 2014, 08:32:38 PM
He wasn't able to create the same alchemy he had in the previous 5 years.   It was clearly not up to the standard set the previous 5 years.   But I truly believe he was trying to win every game. 

The question is not whether he was trying to win but, rather, if his job performance last year was horrible. One would have to go back to the last century to find as bad a season at Marquette.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 05, 2014, 09:05:26 PM
Well, by definition, "Bert did a horrible job last year" is an opinion. It happens to be an opinion that I agree with.

The logical fallacy I was referring to was the notion that bringing in Carlino for the 2014-2015 season somehow proves that Derrick shouldn't have started in the 2013-2014 season. That is a huge logical jump.

That statement in isolation is an opinion. But it is a pithy articulation of Bert's performance. It is merely a summary statement as there is ample empiricism to substantiate the claim. And as I say, the rich, chewy nougat center of Ners' position is that Bert failed as a leader last season.

Ners,

The issue is and always has been the way you and other choose to phrase your criticisms. Passing off opinions as facts, rampant hyperbole, leaps in logic, and refusal to even listen to any other perspectives turns reasonable discussion amongst basketball fans into malicious attacks on young men who work their arses off representing Marquette.

No one has any issue with your opinions. They are based in sound basketball logic and come from a place of wanting the best for our alma mater. I don't personally agree with all of them but do with several. I wanted more time for Mayo, Burton, and even Dawson! But I'm not willing to trash our current players to make those points and take offense when others do.

That is all. My only point of contention. Can you share opinions without turning it into an attack? If you can, I'll be happy to continue discussion. Until then, this is all I can offer:

(http://www.allisonparr.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/tumblr_lw3u42TcMx1r3ovdbo1_400.gif)

Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 05, 2014, 09:57:55 PM
Missing the fracking NIT? Really? The fracking NIT? Who the frack cares? Minnesota worries about making the fracking NIT. Penn State worries about making the fracking NIT. We had a down year last year after 3 great ones. Happens at all top programs. And when top programs have a down year they don't worry about making the fracking NIT. The season's a failure the moment you don't make the NCAAs. Whining about not making the losers tournament is for losers. Can't believe a once proud MU fan who cheered us to the brink of becoming an elite program is bitching that our inevitable down year (every program has em once in a while) didn't produce a bid to the fracking NIT. What the frack has happened to you, Ners?

Now that is deflection. denigrate the NIT, instead of MU's inability to even get in, based on poor coaching performance.

I swear that some people on this board are becoming enamored with deflection, possibly watching our governments ability to do so. When stepping in crap, blame whoever you can as being the one that put the crap there, and not your own propensity to muck into the crap.

Quote from: willie warrior on June 06, 2014, 06:35:06 AM
Now that is deflection.

I swear that some people on this board are becoming enamored with deflection

Deflections?!? This board hasn't been enamored with defections since the Bronze Beast took his act to Bloomington.

Quote from: keefe on June 06, 2014, 12:32:15 AM
That statement in isolation is an opinion. But it is a pithy articulation of Bert's performance. It is merely a summary statement as there is ample empiricism to substantiate the claim. And as I say, the rich, chewy nougat center of Ners' position is that Bert failed as a leader last season.

Exactly.  Everything rests at the feet of Buzz for how bad last season was.  At the end of the day..it isn't Derrick and Jake's fault Buzz insisted on playing them more minutes than any other players on the team.  They did their best, tried hard, followed the marching orders of their leader.  The issue of course is the judgment of the leader...as to who he chose to go to battle with...and the argument all season long in support of the leader largely was Buzz's first 5 years give him a pass..and absolve him of even the possibility of making mistakes with his rotation, substitution patterns, chosen starting lineup - when it was clear as day early on if he didn't radically alter the starters and minute allocation...the season was going to be a bust.

The most frustrating part on this board was the continued (opinion/not fact) insistence on those suggesting Buzz didn't have better options....when there is no question....Mayo is a better all around player than Jake....Burton...better than Juan....and entirely possible Dawson would have performed better than Derrick...as he can at least shoot the basketball....and largely...you simply cannot get worse production from your PG than what we got.

The end of the day...17-15 and missing the NIT sums it all up...terrible coaching job.

Quote from: Ners on June 06, 2014, 08:43:48 AM
Exactly.  Everything rests at the feet of Buzz for how bad last season was.  At the end of the day..it isn't Derrick and Jake's fault Buzz insisted on playing them more minutes than any other players on the team.  They did their best, tried hard, followed the marching orders of their leader.  The issue of course is the judgment of the leader...as to who he chose to go to battle with...and the argument all season long in support of the leader largely was Buzz's first 5 years give him a pass..and absolve him of even the possibility of making mistakes with his rotation, substitution patterns, chosen starting lineup - when it was clear as day early on if he didn't radically alter the starters and minute allocation...the season was going to be a bust.

The most frustrating part on this board was the continued (opinion/not fact) insistence on those suggesting Buzz didn't have better options....when there is no question....Mayo is a better all around player than Jake....Burton...better than Juan....and entirely possible Dawson would have performed better than Derrick...as he can at least shoot the basketball....and largely...you simply cannot get worse production from your PG than what we got.

The end of the day...17-15 and missing the NIT sums it all up...terrible coaching job.

So close to a legitimate argument....

(http://imedgeinator.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/bangHeadAgainstWall.gif)

Quote from: Ners on June 06, 2014, 08:43:48 AM
Exactly.  Everything rests at the feet of Buzz for how bad last season was.  At the end of the day..it isn't Derrick and Jake's fault Buzz insisted on playing them more minutes than any other players on the team.  They did their best, tried hard, followed the marching orders of their leader.  The issue of course is the judgment of the leader...as to who he chose to go to battle with...and the argument all season long in support of the leader largely was Buzz's first 5 years give him a pass..and absolve him of even the possibility of making mistakes with his rotation, substitution patterns, chosen starting lineup - when it was clear as day early on if he didn't radically alter the starters and minute allocation...the season was going to be a bust.

The most frustrating part on this board was the continued (opinion/not fact) insistence on those suggesting Buzz didn't have better options....when there is no question....Mayo is a better all around player than Jake....Burton...better than Juan....and entirely possible Dawson would have performed better than Derrick...as he can at least shoot the basketball....and largely...you simply cannot get worse production from your PG than what we got.

The end of the day...17-15 and missing the NIT sums it all up...terrible coaching job.

It not a question of whether they were more talented. Buzz valued effort and rewarded the players who always gave 100% effort. Mayo had issues and Mayo not starting rested directly on Mayo's shoulders. You can argue whether the freshmen should of played more, but Buzz wants players to know where they are suppose to be on offense and defense. You can certainly argue that they can only learn by playing. However, as bad as the season was we were still in the picture with four games to go and lost two of them in overtime so when should Buzz of thrown in the towel on the season?

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 06, 2014, 09:06:10 AM
So close to a legitimate argument....

(http://imedgeinator.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/bangHeadAgainstWall.gif)

Are you trying to say Jake is better than the Toddfather?

Quote from: Ners on June 06, 2014, 12:22:44 AM
Lenny....yes..it was a total and complete disgrace..albeit a fitting end to the turd of a season Buzz coached us to...to MISS the NIT.  To not even be selected to the NIT??  THat's about as big of kick in the balls as you can get...for a team that had ZERO business missing the NCAA tourney...and was picked as preseason Big East Champ, Preseason Top 20 in virtually every single poll that existed.

I'm still a proud MU fan...and thought Buzz was gonna be as good as Al...but he proved and turned out to be a nutcase.  

...he returns more letter winners than at any other time in his tenure...all of HIS guys...and he just coached them to a 17-15 finish...

So in one season (mostly because he didn't play an inexperienced, not all that highly rated PG big minutes) your opinion of Buzz went from "He's the next Al, a hall of famer" to "He's insane". That, my friend, is what's insane.

As to returning "letter winners" what is this, high school? Letter winners? We play a 3 guard offense. Top notch guards are essential to winning. We lost all 3 of our starters, and our star guard (who you inexplicably hated) was an unexpected loss. The replacements were a PG with no offense, a walk on and a good but streaky offensive guy with a ton of baggage. Behind them, Magic Dawson. But because Juan, Derrick, Jake, etc., won "letters" the previous year you expected greatness. Instead of listening to preseason pollsters (who are then listened to by conference coaches) try doing a little of your own analysis. Be like Chico. Sure, he's posted often about last year's failure to meet expectations but he's mostly doing that to tweak me. He was worried about our guard play early and said as much. Junior Cadougan, Vander Blue and Trent Lockett with Derrick Wilson, Todd Mayo and Jake Thomas off the bench is light years better than Derrick Wilson, Jake Thomas and Todd Mayo with John Dawson off the bench. Light years. That's partially due to injury (Duane Wilson) and unexpected departure (Vander) but ultimately the blame falls on Buzz the general manager. We were undermanned at the game's most important positions and 17-15 was the result.

Ners, hypothetically, how much improvement from 17-15 do you think we would have gotten playing your line up of Dawson, Mayo, Deonte, Jamil and one of our centers?

Do you think we would have won the BE?  Reached the NCAA?

Quote from: keefe on June 06, 2014, 12:32:15 AM
And as I say, the rich, chewy nougat center of Ners' position is that Bert failed as a leader last season.

Hmmm...a fresh, steaming, half pound shyte sandwich, albeit one with a rich, chewy nougat center. At the risk of missing a gourmet's delight I'll pass.

Quote from: swoopem on June 06, 2014, 09:18:36 AM
Are you trying to say Jake is better than the Toddfather?

No, I think Todd is a much better all around player than Jake.

But that is an opinion. And making statements like "there can be no question" changes this from reasonable discussion to ultimatums. "Agree with me or you're an idiot" essentially.

And FWIW, Jake did not take playing time away from Mayo. Jake was a our starting shooting guard and Mayo was our starting wing guard in a three guard offense. Metrics consistently showed that we were at our best when Mayo and Jake were on the floor at the same time.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on June 06, 2014, 10:13:22 AM
No, I think Todd is a much better all around player than Jake.

But that is an opinion. And making statements like "there can be no question" changes this from reasonable discussion to ultimatums. "Agree with me or you're an idiot" essentially.

And FWIW, Jake did not take playing time away from Mayo. Jake was a our starting shooting guard and Mayo was our starting wing guard in a three guard offense. Metrics consistently showed that we were at our best when Mayo and Jake were on the floor at the same time.

What do you think the difference is between shooting guard and wing guard? I have seen you make this argument multiple times and I disagree. Is Jake Thomas the only shooting guard on last years roster? We could have played JJJ and Mayo together and IMO, it would have been an improvement over Thomas. Put the IMO in there for you, seems like your feathers have been a little ruffled about that lately  ;D

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on June 06, 2014, 10:49:36 AM
What do you think the difference is between shooting guard and wing guard? I have seen you make this argument multiple times and I disagree. Is Jake Thomas the only shooting guard on last years roster? We could have played JJJ and Mayo together and IMO, it would have been an improvement over Thomas. Put the IMO in there for you, seems like your feathers have been a little ruffled about that lately  ;D

Yeah only facts are allowed on a message board

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on June 06, 2014, 10:49:36 AM
What do you think the difference is between shooting guard and wing guard? I have seen you make this argument multiple times and I disagree. Is Jake Thomas the only shooting guard on last years roster? We could have played JJJ and Mayo together and IMO, it would have been an improvement over Thomas. Put the IMO in there for you, seems like your feathers have been a little ruffled about that lately  ;D

The IMO wasn't necessary, just saying "could" instead of "must" was sufficient.  ;) I know it seems silly. But if you boil down every argument that has ever been had on this board ever, it boils down to how the argument is made, not the argument itself. I don't think any of the Slurpificient Five would take issue with anyone thinking Derrick is an awful point guard. It's the way people choose to express how bad they think Derrick is that bother us. If everyone spoke to each other on scoop like they talk to actual people in real life, we wouldn't have so many good members rage quitting.

As to your question. The traditional starting five features a PG, SG, SF, PF, and C. College teams have increasingly gotten away from this model. Many now go with a three guard offense that features a PG, SG, WG, PF, and C. A SG's purpose is to be the three point threat. They are there to spread out the defense. WGs use the spacing created by the SG (and usually but unfortunately not in our case) the PG to slash to the basket and attack. One can be successful without the other but they are typically better together.

Jake was the only true SG on the roster. There were others that could play the position but it's not their natural role. Dawson is a PG, Mayo/JJJ are attacking WGs. Now it is fine to have a PG or a WG in the SG role...if they are also a strong three point shooter. Dawson and JJJ both shot at a 29% or lower clip. Mayo shot 33% but that didn't happen until the end of the season. He was hovering around 28% until the last month.

Jake was the only legitimate three point threat. IMHO, we needed him on the floor to space the defense.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 06, 2014, 08:04:51 AM
Deflections?!? This board hasn't been enamored with defections since the Bronze Beast took his act to Bloomington.

I said some people Lenny, not the whole board.

Quote from: tower912 on June 05, 2014, 08:32:38 PM
He wasn't able to create the same alchemy he had in the previous 5 years.   It was clearly not up to the standard set the previous 5 years.   But I truly believe he was trying to win every game. 

Trying and knowing what to do are different. Not as certain his winning objective was the same but will give him the benefit of the doubt in spike of horrible coaching last year IMHO.

Let's see what Wogo can do with the same basic talent except for Devonte, Jamil and Jake.

Quote from: Ners on June 06, 2014, 12:22:44 AM
 It was awful...and the fact neither Jamil nor Davante even thanked him on Senior Day..while thanking everyone else..assistants, trainers, academic staff...spoke volumes about how he lost the team.  Not to mention if he were here.. Steve Taylor and JJJ would have bailed on him...and I'm sure Dawson gave it some consideration too.

That was telling to me at the end of the year, I said to my friends as we were leaving did you notice how nobody thanked Buzz this year. Buzz lost the team by trying to stick a square peg into a round hole the entire season

I didn't vote because my favorite moment was when it was over!

Last year our team laid an egg. Say what you want, there were too many slaughters, heads where the sun don't shine and outright losses that should not have been losses. Our coach left, I think, because he lost the team, lost the fans and knew reconstruction was not going to be easy. It never is.

Sorry to say, they just weren't fun to watch. That, folks, is coaching!

Our new coach has me excited and if I had to pick a moment, it was when Coach Wojo was named head coach at Marquette University. I'm in my church lighting my votive light and asking the Big Jesuit in the Sky, through the intercession of St. Al, basketball coach and national champion, to make sure Coach Wojo is the real thing!

Quote from: dgies9156 on June 06, 2014, 01:39:26 PM
Our coach left, I think, because he lost the team, lost the fans and knew reconstruction was not going to be easy. It never is.

This is.....correct. Not the only reason, but one of the primary.

Quote from: Ners on June 06, 2014, 08:43:48 AM
The most frustrating part on this board was the continued (opinion/not fact) insistence on those suggesting Buzz didn't have better options....when there is no question....Mayo is a better all around player than Jake....Burton...better than Juan....and entirely possible Dawson would have performed better than Derrick...as he can at least shoot the basketball....and largely...you simply cannot get worse production from your PG than what we got.

The end of the day...17-15 and missing the NIT sums it all up...terrible coaching job.

I agree with your opinions that Bart did a bad job, that Todd is better than Jake, and that Deonte is better than Juan.  I don't think John was a better option than Derrick, and the fact that Wojo brought in an experienced PG like Carlino suggests he has his doubts as well.

I wish Bert had given John more minutes, and said so many times last season.  Still, I think he ultimately started the right guy at PG, but not at SG or SF.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on June 06, 2014, 04:51:45 PM
I agree with your opinions that Bart did a bad job, that Todd is better than Jake, and that Deonte is better than Juan.  I don't think John was a better option than Derrick, and the fact that Wojo brought in an experienced PG like Carlino suggests he has his doubts as well.

I wish Bert had given John more minutes, and said so many times last season.  Still, I think he ultimately started the right guy at PG, but not at SG or SF.

I think by bringing in Carlino, it speaks more about Wojo's  reservations about Derrick than it does about Dawson. How often do you see a returning senior starter get bumped to a backup role? Not very often and that is what seems very likely at this point. If Wojo had confidence in Derrick playing the same minutes as last year, there would be no need to bring in Carlino.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on June 06, 2014, 04:51:45 PM
I agree with your opinions that Bart did a bad job, that Todd is better than Jake, and that Deonte is better than Juan.  I don't think John was a better option than Derrick, and the fact that Wojo brought in an experienced PG like Carlino suggests he has his doubts as well.

I wish Bert had given John more minutes, and said so many times last season.  Still, I think he ultimately started the right guy at PG, but not at SG or SF.

My view is that given that Buzz chose to play Jake Thomas roughly 8 more minutes a game on average than Toddy Mayo, Juan Anderson roughly 4 more minutes per game on average than Burton...and not playing Gardner 30+ every game...showed he left a lot of talent sitting on the bench in favor of less talented players.  Feel the same applied at PG position.  I would have been fine, truly, with Derrick starting...but at least toward the end of non-conference play - or at minimum after the Georgetown game when Dawson showed what he could do in 30 minutes....to at least at that point split the minutes 20/20.

Refusing to do that on Buzz's part reeked of insanity, simply given that what Derrick was bringing to the team on the offensive end..at the most critical position for a team offensively...was truly some of the worst PG play in the history of high major basketball.  I've asked Derrick's biggest fans/supporters to find another PG in the last 20 years that got more minutes than any other player on his team...and only made 1, 3pt shot for the year, shot 43% from the FT line...and averaged less than 5ppg while playing 32 minutes on average...nobody has found one yet.  And...when Derrick refused to take any perimeter shots...and didn't need to be defended within 5' on the perimeter..that causes all kinds of problems for the rest of the team...which is why I certainly didn't think it would have been worse with Dawson playing equal time.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on June 06, 2014, 09:24:05 AM
Ners, hypothetically, how much improvement from 17-15 do you think we would have gotten playing your line up of Dawson, Mayo, Deonte, Jamil and one of our centers?

Do you think we would have won the BE?  Reached the NCAA?

I'd put the record at least at 22-10....for as many close games as we lost...in regulation and OT...the team wasn't far away at all from being a decent winner...and it did in spite of being totally handcuffed by the most ineffective backcourt pairing likely in the history of high major ball.  One guy simply can't shoot from anywhere outside of 3' from the basket....the other guy can only make 3 point shots.  A "shooting guard" should be able to make lots of 2 point FGs as well.

As you know - I value offense more than defense in a player...because even the best offensive players are only going to be successful 50% of the time..regardless of if they are being guarded by an elite defender or weaker defender.  Yet, if a player cannot bring anything to the table offensively (particularly at the guard position), those limitations essentially are with the team 100% of the time on the other end.  So..for example...say if Derrick is defending a player...he only shoots 35% for the game...but if Dawson defended the guy shoots 50%...the net negative of Dawson defending the player instead of Derrick is 15%...yet on the other end..offensively...Dawson is going to shoot 21% better from the 3 point line..35% better from FT line...and require that the defense guard him everywhere...because he's a legitimate threat to shoot the ball from the perimeter..and make it....now I understand Derrick's overall FG% for the season was a notch higher than Dawson's...but that is misleading in that virtually all of his makes came at the basket...and team's wouldn't even guard him on the perimeter...and he'd pass up wide open look after wide open look...his FG% if shooting 90% of his shots from roughly 3' and in should have been actually quite higher than what it ended up being.

The same argument can apply and be made for Deonte over Juan, Gardner over Otule...Mayo over Jake...last season was far and away the outlier in Buzz's tenure as far os ORating/Efficiency....the team needed all the help it could get offensively....and Buzz chose not to max the time of the guys who had the most offensive ability...

And again...for TAMU...that is my opinion...yet one I feel that is supported by the ultimate final record.

Quote from: Ners on June 06, 2014, 06:38:07 PM
My view is that given that Buzz chose to play Jake Thomas roughly 8 6 more minutes a game on average than Toddy Mayo, Juan Anderson roughly 4 1 more minutes per game on average than Burton...and not playing Gardner 30+ every game...showed he left a lot of talent sitting on the bench in favor of less talented players.  Feel the same applied at PG position.  I would have been fine, truly, with Derrick starting...but at least toward the end of non-conference play - or at minimum after the Georgetown game when Dawson showed what he could do in 30 minutes....to at least at that point split the minutes 20/20.

Excellent! Perfect! An argument with no attacking! Just reasoned points (besides the factual errors, corrected above)

Quote from: Ners on June 06, 2014, 06:38:07 PM
Refusing to do that on Buzz's part reeked of insanity, simply given that what Derrick was bringing to the team on the offensive end..at the most critical position for a team offensively...was truly some of the worst PG play in the history of high major basketball.  I've asked Derrick's biggest fans/supporters to find another PG in the last 20 years that got more minutes than any other player on his team...and only made 1, 3pt shot for the year, shot 43% from the FT line...and averaged less than 5ppg while playing 32 minutes on average...nobody has found one yet.  And...when Derrick refused to take any perimeter shots...and didn't need to be defended within 5' on the perimeter..that causes all kinds of problems for the rest of the team...which is why I certainly didn't think it would have been worse with Dawson playing equal time.

Oh boy....1 step forward, 3 steps back

Quote from: Ners on June 06, 2014, 06:52:05 PM
And again...for TAMU...that is my opinion...yet one I feel that is supported by the ultimate final record.

That post was pretty good. No attacking. There are some made up numbers in there but they are at least "reasonable" estimations. The post before it. Yikes