Wow.....exactly! Well said Mr. Kenny Smith.
Give me some traditionals every day of the week....traditional basketball players!
That's racist
Give me switchables
Quote from: Marqwarrior89 on April 05, 2014, 08:04:44 PM
Give me switchables
go here www.vatech.com
Traditional basketball players are playing in the Final Four right now...one just advanced to the final, another is playing for it here in a minute.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 05, 2014, 08:06:34 PM
go here www.vatech.com
Traditional basketball players are playing in the Final Four right now...one just advanced to the final, another is playing for it here in a minute.
Guess the teal didn't show up, but yea I agree eff switchables
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 05, 2014, 08:06:34 PM
go here www.vatech.com
Traditional basketball players are playing in the Final Four right now...one just advanced to the final, another is playing for it here in a minute.
Becky finally moves from heavy-traditional love to a more athletic brand.. offense improves, defense weaker than in the past... but success has been had. Becky is less traditional this year than it has been in the past... and it shows.
You don't need to have one OR the other. I want a good team, complete with shooters, athletes and everything good in between.
(Except I think you use 'traditional' different than most people do.)
They have shooters Jay Bee. You can be athletic and still be a quality basketball player. Problem is when coaches recruit freak athletes that aren't quality basketball players in the hopes they will "out-athlete" their competition. They don't understand spacing, pace, etc.
Sure, Wisconsin is more athletic this year, but they aren't any less smart or lacking any of the basketball high IQ they always have.
They don't turn the ball over, they play proper position defense, they don't foul. Smart basketball team
Well the "athletes" just went on a 13-0 run. :-\
Quote from: MUtbone on April 05, 2014, 09:45:45 PM
Well the "athletes" just went on a 13-0 run. :-\
Exactly. Because they are more than just "athletes".
Quote from: QuetteHoops on April 05, 2014, 09:47:41 PM
Exactly. Because they are more than just "athletes".
Very true.
Quote from: MUtbone on April 05, 2014, 09:45:45 PM
Well the "athletes" just went on a 13-0 run. :-\
Then what happened? ;)
Kentucky is more than just athletes, obviously. The point is that good, solid, traditional basketball players that know how to shoot, defend, high basketball IQ can be extremely successful.
The point is that it can be done many different ways.
Silly.
It's not at all mutually exclusive to be smart and athletic.
Quote from: MU82 on April 06, 2014, 08:31:41 AM
Silly.
It's not at all mutually exclusive to be smart and athletic.
This.
Those traditionals at UW are pretty good athletes.
And those athlete at Kentucky proved to be pretty good basketball players.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 05, 2014, 07:53:29 PM
Wow.....exactly! Well said Mr. Kenny Smith.
Give me some traditionals every day of the week....traditional basketball players!
I don't think his definition and yours are the same. Nor is smart and athletic mutually exclusive. Are Gardner, and Jake traditionals? Neither would be in the athletic category. Then there is Otule who I wouldn't necessarily put in either.
Also MU has had a history of athletes who weren't good players that has stretched earlier than Buzz. Carlton Christian ring a bell.
Quote from: MU82 on April 06, 2014, 08:31:41 AM
Silly.
It's not at all mutually exclusive to be smart and athletic.
Tell him what he's won!
This thread is full of some sanctimonious garbage.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 06, 2014, 09:10:04 AM
This.
Those traditionals at UW are pretty good athletes.
And those athlete at Kentucky proved to be pretty good basketball players.
No one will deny that.....its when you get down a few tiers where it is more striking. When you watch a basketball team, sometimes ours, and you wonder where the shooters are, where the basketball IQ is, etc.
As Buzz said a few times this year, "we can't shoot". Well, who's fault is that? Or when coaches say, "we don't play very smart". Uhm, yes....why is that?
Quote from: atk13thst on April 06, 2014, 10:48:47 AM
Very much so
LOL. You do realize who made the statement on the air that I merely repeated (and credited)...Kenny Smith.
(http://static5.bornrichimages.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Kenny-Smith-f7b40.jpg)
He said it about UCONN over Florida. UCONN having more basketball players vs the athletes of Florida. Last I checked, both teams are primarily African American. "traditional" has NOTHING to do with race, it has to do with the ability to play basketball with the core traditional skills.
But I forgot, you were the poster last week that said we didn't want Cuonzo Martin because he was African American but conveniently ignored the fact that 95% of the base was going crazy excited about having Shaka Smart as our head coach. I asked you then, and you didn't answer.....is Shaka Smart African American?
Thanks
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 06, 2014, 10:52:45 AM
LOL. You do realize who made the statement on the air that I merely repeated (and credited)...Kenny Smith.
Black dudes can fall into the trap of lame and inaccurate racial stereotypes just as easily as white dudes.
Did "White Men Can't Jump" teach you nothing?
Quote from: Pakuni on April 06, 2014, 11:02:34 AM
Black dudes can fall into the trap of lame and inaccurate racial stereotypes just as easily as white dudes.
Did "White Men Can't Jump" teach you nothing?
I was told only white people can be wrong and racist...didn't MSNBC teach you nothing?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 06, 2014, 11:05:11 AM
I was told only white people can be wrong and racist...didn't MSNBC teach you nothing?
I prefer reading scientific journals/articles while I puff on my vintage briar pipe to assess racial issues, rather than be taken to a dead end with the cable news networks. Carry on patrons. I'm enjoying the show.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 06, 2014, 11:05:11 AM
I was told only white people can be wrong and racist...didn't MSNBC teach you nothing?
Chico's ... I would give you my life savings if you could actually produce evidence that you've been told "Only white people can be wrong."
Repeat after me: "I am not a victim. I am not a victim. I am not a victim."
Quote from: Pakuni on April 06, 2014, 11:24:40 AM
Chico's ... I would give you my life savings if you could actually produce evidence that you've been told "Only white people can be wrong."
Make out a check.
That one Kentucky put back where the guy's head was above rim level and he was looking down was unreal.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 05, 2014, 07:53:29 PM
Wow.....exactly! Well said Mr. Kenny Smith.
Give me some traditionals every day of the week....traditional basketball players!
to link "traditionals" to basketball players is just stupid, and in the WI vs KY we saw WI with better basketball players get beat by KY with better athletes. WI played the best game it could possibly play (hit a ton of 3's at a high percentage and didn't miss many FT's), while KY made more mistakes, failed to attack the rim for periods of time, etc. and still won.
when kenny smith talked about basketball players he was talking about napier and boatwright...hardly what you've described as "traditionals." and when you listen to billy donovan talk about his team, he flat out says he got more out of this years talent then he even thought he could. so kenny was struggling to make a point, and his versio of basketball players don't compare to your version of traditionals. maybe you misinformed on FOX news?
Quote from: Jay Bee on April 06, 2014, 12:01:18 PM
Make out a check.
I have two kids in Catholic school, so my life savings is about $12. I might as well send cash.
Quote from: avid1010 on April 06, 2014, 12:24:39 PM
to link "traditionals" to basketball players is just stupid, and in the WI vs KY we saw WI with better basketball players get beat by KY with better athletes. WI played the best game it could possibly play (hit a ton of 3's at a high percentage and didn't miss many FT's), while KY made more mistakes, failed to attack the rim for periods of time, etc. and still won.
when kenny smith talked about basketball players he was talking about napier and boatwright...hardly what you've described as "traditionals." and when you listen to billy donovan talk about his team, he flat out says he got more out of this years talent then he even thought he could. so kenny was struggling to make a point, and his versio of basketball players don't compare to your version of traditionals. maybe you misinformed on FOX news?
Traditionals are basketball players. I have no idea what your definition of traditionals is, but clearly not the same as mine.
You may want to watch Kenny Smith again, clearly you missed what he was saying.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 06, 2014, 11:24:40 AM
Chico's ... I would give you my life savings if you could actually produce evidence that you've been told "Only white people can be wrong."
Repeat after me: "I am not a victim. I am not a victim. I am not a victim."
About race....I'd be happy to. What kind of evidence, merely someone saying it on a national television program? Name the parameters. And by the way, there is an entire victimhood out there that says it is impossible for a "minority" to be racist. Happy to provide you those as well.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 05, 2014, 09:54:05 PM
The point is that good, solid, traditional basketball players that know how to shoot, defend, high basketball IQ can be extremely successful.
(http://www.wickedrides.com.au/blog/sites/default/files/images/diggingahole.jpg)
So this is how MUScoop acts when MU isn't playing? We're overcome with the debate on the rules on how to adopt "traditional players" into our lexicon?
I'd rather have a debate on what tastes better..... the twinkie or the hostess cupcake.
Give me the athlete. Everyday all day.
Quote from: atk13thst on April 06, 2014, 01:28:05 PM
Give me the athlete. Everyday all day.
We just hired the wrong coach then....he's going to preach basketball smarts, good shooters, fundamentals, etc.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 06, 2014, 01:33:33 PM
We just hired the wrong coach then....he's going to preach basketball smarts, good shooters, fundamentals, etc.
WE HIRED BO??!!??
Quote from: keefe on April 06, 2014, 01:38:52 PM
WE HIRED BO??!!??
No, Marquette is incapable of hiring established, successful high major coaches from other programs....silly Air Force dude. Come on now.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 06, 2014, 01:33:33 PM
We just hired the wrong coach then....he's going to preach basketball smarts, good shooters, fundamentals, etc.
Athletic guys are capable of basketball smarts, good shooters, fundamentals, etc., too.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 06, 2014, 02:03:11 PM
Athletic guys are capable of basketball smarts, good shooters, fundamentals, etc., too.
No one ever said differently. The perfect world is getting someone that can do both....kind of like what Duke has been able to do.
Unfortunately, that hasn't always been the case here at MU where basketball IQ in some years has been mind blowing.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 06, 2014, 02:05:28 PM
No one ever said differently. The perfect world is getting someone that can do both....kind of like what Duke has been able to do.
Unfortunately, that hasn't always been the case here at MU where basketball IQ in some years has been mind blowing.
Gōtō ya dorobō wa sore ga subete onajidearu
Quote from: keefe on April 06, 2014, 02:09:40 PM
Gōtō ya dorobō wa sore ga subete onajidearu
I've had enough of this Japanese mularkey you keep spewing out. It's off to prison with Buzz.
Quote from: keefe on April 06, 2014, 02:09:40 PM
Gōtō ya dorobō wa sore ga subete onajidearu
私達の大学は、ステッピングストーンです。
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 06, 2014, 01:04:44 PM
Traditionals are basketball players. I have no idea what your definition of traditionals is, but clearly not the same as mine.
You may want to watch Kenny Smith again, clearly you missed what he was saying.
you might want to watch kenny smith again. tell me what "traditionals" he was speaking of on the UCONN team?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 06, 2014, 03:28:30 PM
私達の大学は、ステッピングストーンです。
Subete no yama ni wa, koishi o motte iru
Athlete any day of the week for me.
I'd take Bird over any "athlete" in history except Jordan, Jabbar and maybe a couple others.
Speaking of traditionals.........
http://deadspin.com/snl-presents-ncaa-tournament-best-of-the-white-guys-1559311200
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on April 06, 2014, 01:26:06 PM
So this is how MUScoop acts when MU isn't playing? We're overcome with the debate on the rules on how to adopt "traditional players" into our lexicon?
I'd rather have a debate on what tastes better..... the twinkie or the hostess cupcake.
Twinkie.
I think somewhere in this thread I read (awful head cold to kick off April, Wisconsin weather is the absolute best...although today it actually wasn't bad) that only white people can be racist. Have always laughed at the "meetblackpeople.com" (or whatever it is) dating site commercial on TV. Can you imagine the outcry if someone made a dating site named "meetwhitepeople.com?" Hilarious.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 06, 2014, 07:34:44 PM
Twinkie.
I think somewhere in this thread I read (awful head cold to kick off April, Wisconsin weather is the absolute best...although today it actually wasn't bad) that only white people can be racist. Have always laughed at the "meetblackpeople.com" (or whatever it is) dating site commercial on TV. Can you imagine the outcry if someone made a dating site named "meetwhitepeople.com?" Hilarious.
dumbest post ever
Quote from: wadesworld on April 06, 2014, 07:34:44 PM
Twinkie.
I think somewhere in this thread I read (awful head cold to kick off April, Wisconsin weather is the absolute best...although today it actually wasn't bad) that only white people can be racist. Have always laughed at the "meetblackpeople.com" (or whatever it is) dating site commercial on TV. Can you imagine the outcry if someone made a dating site named "meetwhitepeople.com?" Hilarious.
I was thinking of starting up the "Scottish-English-Japanese Entertainment Television" network
Quote from: keefe on April 06, 2014, 07:39:55 PM
I was thinking of starting up the "Scottish-English-Japanese Entertainment Television" network
SEJET
Let me know when Benny Hill with Japanese voice overs comes on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Rean7WVBM0&feature=player_detailpage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Rean7WVBM0&feature=player_detailpage)
Quote from: wadesworld on April 06, 2014, 07:34:44 PM
Twinkie.
I think somewhere in this thread I read (awful head cold to kick off April, Wisconsin weather is the absolute best...although today it actually wasn't bad) that only white people can be racist. Have always laughed at the "meetblackpeople.com" (or whatever it is) dating site commercial on TV. Can you imagine the outcry if someone made a dating site named "meetwhitepeople.com?" Hilarious.
Discrimination against minorities = systematic oppression for centuries.
Discrimination against those in power= hurt feelings and message board anger
Opportunities in your life are increased exponentially because you were born with light skin. I don't agree that non-whites can't be racist for etymological reasons. But that's the difference.
i'm more upset about christianmingle.com - i've lost sleep many nights over that one.
Quote from: avid1010 on April 06, 2014, 08:15:25 PM
i'm more upset about christianmingle.com - i've lost sleep many nights over that one.
Just wait for the Christian version of AshleyMadison.com
The farmer dating website scares me.
Quote from: MUStudent on April 06, 2014, 08:11:01 PM
Discrimination against minorities = systematic oppression for centuries.
Discrimination against those in power= hurt feelings and message board anger
Opportunities in your life are increased exponentially because you were born with light skin. I don't agree that non-whites can't be racist for etymological reasons. But that's the difference.
Relax. I didn't mean to say I am offended by "meetblackpeople.com" or whatever it is. I just laugh every time I think of what would happen if someone made a "meetwhitepeople.com."
JDate is offensive. I've done stuff with Jewish girlies. Why it gotta be for Jewish singles?
Gesundheit.
Quote from: Jay Bee on April 06, 2014, 08:48:16 PM
JDate is offensive. I've done stuff with Jewish girlies. Why it gotta be for Jewish singles?
Gesundheit.
Mazel Tov!
(http://blurbrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Hot-IDF-Girls-2.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQieldlxZa4e9BrRL_3oCdBc9HYnoAccS5buUByrb6CbX-vZ50N)
(http://img.izismile.com/img/img2/20090513/military_women_69.jpg)
(http://cdn01.dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Israeli_Army_Girls_15-e1353016887626.jpg)
There is no way to come up with a definition of traditional that includes Wisconsin and UConn and disincludes Florida and Kentucky that has any true meaning as to how the teams operate as basketball teams. The same goes as to how they recruit or evaluate talent.
Quote from: keefe on April 06, 2014, 08:59:57 PM
Mazel Tov!
(http://blurbrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Hot-IDF-Girls-2.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQieldlxZa4e9BrRL_3oCdBc9HYnoAccS5buUByrb6CbX-vZ50N)
(http://img.izismile.com/img/img2/20090513/military_women_69.jpg)
(http://cdn01.dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Israeli_Army_Girls_15-e1353016887626.jpg)
These girls have to help recruit Cohen, he must have some jewish blood in him with that last name.
Quote from: tower912 on April 06, 2014, 08:31:20 PM
The farmer dating website scares me.
"You don't have to be lonely ...."
Quote from: MUStudent on April 06, 2014, 08:11:01 PM
Discrimination against minorities = systematic oppression for centuries.
You speak of the Hutus and the Tutsis.
Quote from: avid1010 on April 06, 2014, 04:27:02 PM
you might want to watch kenny smith again. tell me what "traditionals" he was speaking of on the UCONN team?
Again, your definition of traditionals apparently is based on race. Mine isn't. I don't know how you got there, but you did.
Traditionals has to do with the fundamentals of basketball, not the color of your skin.
Quote from: karavotsos on April 06, 2014, 10:58:31 PM
There is no way to come up with a definition of traditional that includes Wisconsin and UConn and disincludes Florida and Kentucky that has any true meaning as to how the teams operate as basketball teams. The same goes as to how they recruit or evaluate talent.
Sure there is. Some coaches recruit elite athleticism in the hopes to teach them the game. Other recruit high basketball IQ guys that can shoot, play fundamental defense, etc, but don't have the athleticism as others.
That doesn't mean the latter has no athleticism nor does it mean the former has zero basketball IQ, there are degrees to everything.
Many coaches will take projects simply based on their "raw athletic ability" or their size, even if they have only been playing the game for 3 or 4 years. Just as some coaches love having a coach's son on the squad because the kid is going to understand the game (in general) at a higher rate than those that don't.
Kenny Smith was not saying Florida didn't have basketball IQ, nor was he saying UCONN had no athletes. However, he was making the comparison that one team had more "basketball players" than the other team which had more athletes. Thus, his comment "I'm taking the basketball players over the athletes".
Not surprisng some folks here turned this into a racial deal...not surprising at all...seems to be page one of the playbook the last 20 years for some folks. When in doubt, shout it out.
Quote from: MUStudent on April 06, 2014, 08:11:01 PM
Discrimination against minorities = systematic oppression for centuries.
Discrimination against those in power= hurt feelings and message board anger
Opportunities in your life are increased exponentially because you were born with light skin. I don't agree that non-whites can't be racist for etymological reasons. But that's the difference.
Ding ding ding
This guy gets it
Quote from: BCHoopster on April 06, 2014, 11:05:57 PM
These girls have to help recruit Cohen, he must have some jewish blood in him with that last name.
I sincerely hope so. A couple members of my Tribe could only help.
Or, as my dad used to say, "Couldn't hoit!"
Quote from: MUStudent on April 06, 2014, 08:11:01 PM
Discrimination against minorities = systematic oppression for centuries.
Discrimination against those in power= hurt feelings and message board anger
Opportunities in your life are increased exponentially because you were born with light skin. I don't agree that non-whites can't be racist for etymological reasons. But that's the difference.
So something like the systematic oppression of the Irish by the English and even Americans for centuries wouldn't count because they're light skinned? I agree with the principle but you're over simplifying it with race.
Quote from: PunchingPiper on April 07, 2014, 09:58:00 AM
So something like the systematic oppression of the Irish by the English and even Americans for centuries wouldn't count because they're light skinned? I agree with the principle but you're over simplifying it with race.
Sorry, was referring to being born
today with white skin in the U.S.
I do not think white people (or anybody) are inherently prone to discriminate against those with darker skin.
Quote from: PunchingPiper on April 07, 2014, 09:58:00 AM
So something like the systematic oppression of the Irish by the English and even Americans for centuries wouldn't count because they're light skinned? I agree with the principle but you're over simplifying it with race.
I think you could even simplify it more.....
There are those who want change for the better....
There are those who don't want change, because it doesn't benefit them knowingly
Quote from: PunchingPiper on April 07, 2014, 09:58:00 AM
So something like the systematic oppression of the Irish by the English and even Americans for centuries wouldn't count because they're light skinned? I agree with the principle but you're over simplifying it with race.
The Irish is example is true, but there is a difference between being a visible and invisible minority. I can look at a black man and say "he's black." I can't look at an Irishmen and say with certainty "he's Irish." The irishman won't be discriminated against until it is confirmed he is Irish. The black man could be discriminated against on sight.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 07, 2014, 12:41:47 AM
Sure there is. Some coaches recruit elite athleticism in the hopes to teach them the game. Other recruit high basketball IQ guys that can shoot, play fundamental defense, etc, but don't have the athleticism as others.
Who are these coaches who wouldn't recruit a Joel Embid? That's ridiculous.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 07, 2014, 08:42:28 AM
Ding ding ding
This guy gets it
And it will live on in perpetuity as a result because there is always an excuse, always someone to blame.....when does it end, 50 years from now, 100 years from now, 500 years from now? As long as their is a cottage industry to blame others, it will never end.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 07, 2014, 12:36:57 AM
Again, your definition of traditionals apparently is based on race. Mine isn't. I don't know how you got there, but you did.
Traditionals has to do with the fundamentals of basketball, not the color of your skin.
not true in the slightest manner, and just a ridiculous comment based upon my discussions on this board/thread.
my point is that i've been following your talk on here regarding traditionals for years, and that's not what kenny was talking about as you tried to align your words with his. unless you want to say that napier and boatwright match your opinion of a traditional. all kenny was saying is that he'd take quick guards that can score (play basketball) vs. the guards of FL who had better size but less basketball skill. a shocking comment as everyone and their mom knows UCONN's backcourt can play with anyone.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 07, 2014, 11:36:11 AM
And it will live on in perpetuity as a result because there is always an excuse, always someone to blame.....when does it end, 50 years from now, 100 years from now, 500 years from now? As long as their is a cottage industry to blame others, it will never end.
When all people actually treat each other equally.
So yes, it will never end
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 07, 2014, 12:10:02 PM
When all people actually treat each other equally.
So yes, it will never end
Perhaps it will end when we are all plugged into virtual reality machines and can create our own, individual worlds. That's just the futurologist/technologist in me speaking.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 07, 2014, 12:10:02 PM
When all people actually treat each other equally.
So yes, it will never end
Yup. There isn't serious debate as to if discrimination actually exists in the U.S, as it's easily measured by an array of statistics dealing with employment, education, resources, etc. And unless people of color are inherently less likely to succeed than white people (obviously not true) then, yes, blame should and will continue to be assigned.
I think the reason this debate angers so many is because people see allegations of racism/discrimination as an attack on their own professional and personal accomplishments, i.e. "I worked hard and deserve to be where I am today." All of our accomplishments deserve to be celebrated, because life is never easy, but it's important to understand that millions of people were/are rarely, if ever, given opportunities to have similar success.
But yeah...Wojo can do whatever he'd like in my opinion. Let's just win some games and have some fun basketball to watch.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 07, 2014, 08:42:28 AM
Ding ding ding
This guy gets it
Sure. A bunch of white guys defining racism...
Quote from: keefe on April 07, 2014, 12:33:19 PM
Sure. A bunch of white guys defining racism...
Haha, yeah, this is the best point made on the subject.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 07, 2014, 12:10:02 PM
When all people actually treat each other equally.
So yes, it will never end
And the cottage industry will go on forever....
Quote from: MUAlum on April 07, 2014, 12:29:10 PM
Yup. There isn't serious debate as to if discrimination actually exists in the U.S, as it's easily measured by an array of statistics dealing with employment, education, resources, etc. And unless people of color are inherently less likely to succeed than white people (obviously not true) then, yes, blame should and will continue to be assigned.
I think the reason this debate angers so many is because people see allegations of racism/discrimination as an attack on their own professional and personal accomplishments, i.e. "I worked hard and deserve to be where I am today." All of our accomplishments deserve to be celebrated, because life is never easy, but it's important to understand that millions of people were/are rarely, if ever, given opportunities to have similar success.
smh
Define people of color. Asians? East Indians?
When looking at the data, are you attributing levels of education, etc. What people get angry at are those blaming everyone else for their problems. Or "fixing" a problem with racially bias policies...nothing like the hypocrisy there.
Something tells me that you and others get to decide who gets the blame, for how long and at what level. Awesome. In the meantime, I'll continue to hire the best qualified candidates as I always have, whether those candidates are women, men, gay, straight, whatever nationality, etc. Do you have the right education level, experience, etc? Can you do the job? How do you think about things? Etc, etc. I'm sure some people will be offended by that....so be it.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 07, 2014, 02:34:23 PM
Something tells me that you and others get to decide who gets the blame, for how long and at what level. Awesome. In the meantime, I'll continue to hire the best qualified candidates as I always have, whether those candidates are women, men, gay, straight, whatever nationality, etc. Do you have the right education level, experience, etc? Can you do the job? How do you think about things? Etc, etc. I'm sure some people will be offended by that....so be it.
It would be naive to believe that someone's ability to obtain the right education and experience isn't often affected by the color of his/her skin.
A white kid growing up in Rancho Santa Margarita is going to have far more opportunity to get the right education and experience than a black kid growing up in Crenshaw or a Latino kid growing up in East LA.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 07, 2014, 02:34:23 PM
smh
Define people of color. Asians? East Indians?
When looking at the data, are you attributing levels of education, etc. What people get angry at are those blaming everyone else for their problems. Or "fixing" a problem with racially bias policies...nothing like the hypocrisy there.
Something tells me that you and others get to decide who gets the blame, for how long and at what level. Awesome. In the meantime, I'll continue to hire the best qualified candidates as I always have, whether those candidates are women, men, gay, straight, whatever nationality, etc. Do you have the right education level, experience, etc? Can you do the job? How do you think about things? Etc, etc. I'm sure some people will be offended by that....so be it.
30 years ago that was not the norm. It still is not the case in many, many situations. The fact that you do things right is great, but in the big picture, it is only one piece of the puzzle. Until people are hired strictly on qualifications, the problem will exist. There will be no need for Affirmative Action. There will be no need for quotas for Fire, Police, etc. if hiring has no racial or religious basis.
how many of you cats were at the White Privilege Conference in Madison last week? We coulda had a backyard beer summit with Hoopaloop.
Quote from: brandx on April 07, 2014, 02:53:43 PM
The fact that you do things right is great, but in the big picture, it is only one piece of the puzzle.
That's part of the "shtick". "I don't discriminate. In fact, I'm a minority in my neighborhood." Meanwhile, he yearns for the 1950s, the good old days before the Civil Rights Act, women's rights, gay rights, etc.. You knows, those days when a white guy had a fair shot in the USA.
Hell hath no fury like a defensive, middle aged, upper-middle class white dude in a multiracial society.
Quote from: Bleuteaux on April 07, 2014, 03:30:40 PM
Hell hath no fury like a defensive, middle aged, upper-middle class white dude in a multiracial society.
It's a hard world for some - too few traditionals.
I'm still trying to find a place that will let me cash in some of my 'white priviledge'.
On a serious note, most people overlap socioeconomic issues and racism, and while some of the current socioeconomic issues can be linked to prior race issues in this country they have certainly evolved into a much larger systemic problem that is done a disservice by those who solely link it to race. While it certainly is true that some people face significantly bigger hurdles to improving their socioeconomic status and escaping generational poverty, to absolve individuals of their personal choice in the matter only adds to the problem and is irresponsible.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 07, 2014, 02:34:23 PM
When looking at the data, are you attributing levels of education, etc. What people get angry at are those blaming everyone else for their problems. Or "fixing" a problem with racially bias policies...nothing like the hypocrisy there.
Something tells me that you and others get to decide who gets the blame, for how long and at what level. Awesome. In the meantime, I'll continue to hire the best qualified candidates as I always have, whether those candidates are women, men, gay, straight, whatever nationality, etc. Do you have the right education level, experience, etc? Can you do the job? How do you think about things? Etc, etc. I'm sure some people will be offended by that....so be it.
Things like this leave me to believe you don't understand what I mean when I refer to "systematic discrimination." The driving force behind racial discrimination in the U.S. isn't employers who consciously prefer white candidates over others.
The individuals you hired had great qualifications and experience and that's terrific. But how did those people come to have such good experience? To have such qualifications? It's more than likely they were raised by families that had the resources to feed them well, assure all needed care was provided 24/7, and prioritize their education all the way through college. And good for them for making the most of their opportunities and landing a nice job.
But how about a child growing up in a Chicago housing project? Will he have access to the healthiest diets, best care, and best education? Probably not. Will it be impossible for him to succeed in life? Of course not. But it'll be exponentially more difficult.
It's not a fluke that African American people, for example, are much more likely to live in poverty, often without any access to quality education. Rather, it's due to the legacy of their treatment in this country for centuries, and a history of racism and discrimination is inherently the biggest part of that. So until disparities between races in income, quality of education, etc. are gone, systematic discrimination continues.
Quote from: MUAlum on April 07, 2014, 03:42:31 PM
Things like this leave me to believe you don't understand what I mean when I refer to "systematic discrimination." The driving force behind racial discrimination in the U.S. isn't employers who consciously prefer white candidates over others.
The individuals you hired had great qualifications and experience and that's terrific. But how did those people come to have such good experience? To have such qualifications? It's more than likely they were raised by families that had the resources to feed them well, assure all needed care was provided 24/7, and prioritize their education all the way through college. And good for them for making the most of their opportunities and landing a nice job.
But how about a child growing up in a Chicago housing project? Will he have access to the healthiest diets, best care, and best education? Probably not. Will it be impossible for him to succeed in life? Of course not. But it'll be exponentially more difficult.
It's not a fluke that African American people, for example, are much more likely to live in poverty, often without any access to quality education. Rather, it's due to the legacy of their treatment in this country for centuries, and a history of racism and discrimination is inherently the biggest part of that. So until disparities between races in income, quality of education, etc. are gone, systematic discrimination continues.
So how do you fix the problem?
I don't think anyone honestly believes otherwise, but there is always a lot of problem identifying that goes on and very little problem solving. We've tried throwing massive amounts of money at the issues with almost zero long term positive results for decades.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on April 07, 2014, 03:38:22 PM
I'm still trying to find a place that will let me cash in some of my 'white priviledge'.
On a serious note, most people overlap socioeconomic issues and racism, and while some of the current socioeconomic issues can be linked to prior race issues in this country they have certainly evolved into a much larger systemic problem that is done a disservice by those who solely link it to race. While it certainly is true that some people face significantly bigger hurdles to improving their socioeconomic status and escaping generational poverty, to absolve individuals of their personal choice in the matter only adds to the problem and is irresponsible.
According to the 2010 census: 9.9% of white people live in poverty, while 28.4% of black people live in poverty.
There are two possible explanations I can see for this. One, white people are better workers than black people. Two, centuries of oppression against black people in the U.S. Common sense (as well as biology) tells us the former isn't true.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on April 07, 2014, 03:51:00 PM
So how do you fix the problem?
I don't think anyone honestly believes otherwise, but there is always a lot of problem identifying that goes on and very little problem solving. We've tried throwing massive amounts of money at the issues with almost zero long term positive results for decades.
I don't agree that sufficient resources have been allocated to address the issues. But encouraging everybody to be compassionate towards their fellow Americans would be a good start. (not suggesting you aren't compassionate here)
You should probably revisit your idea of adequate spending then.
There's roughly 50 million American's below the poverty line ($11,000 single adult, $23,000 family of four). If you count every American as a single adult and assume that there is zero income being brought in among those 50 million we could simply send checks out in the amount of 550 billion dollars and we'd completely eliminate poverty for the year.
Every year, the United States spends over 525 billion on poverty related programs, yet hasn't reduced the number of people in poverty at all. In fact the number has increased over the last five years. We simply do not count the money spent as reducing poverty.
If our country could take the same 550 billion dollars and send every single man, woman and child below the poverty line a check for $11,000 each we would have nobody in this country living in poverty every year, yet somehow the same amount of money is being spend on poverty related programs and we are not spending adaquately on the problem???
Quote from: mattyv1908 on April 07, 2014, 03:38:22 PM
I'm still trying to find a place that will let me cash in some of my 'white priviledge'.
On a serious note, most people overlap socioeconomic issues and racism, and while some of the current socioeconomic issues can be linked to prior race issues in this country they have certainly evolved into a much larger systemic problem that is done a disservice by those who solely link it to race. While it certainly is true that some people face significantly bigger hurdles to improving their socioeconomic status and escaping generational poverty, to absolve individuals of their personal choice in the matter only adds to the problem and is irresponsible.
i felt this same way until i spent two years researching the hell out of it...from brown v. board of ed to current day. in some cases common sense says it's money, not race, but overall the statistics don't play out. white flight, nixon appointing judges that refused to support forced busing, etc...there's a reason many in the black community feel like they would have been better under plessy v. ferguson rather than brown v. board of ed. spend a little time listening to howard fuller on the MU campus...
congressman ryan, who was just honored by marquette, just stated that we have generations of urban males not even looking for jobs, and when questioned on his comments referenced "the bell curve." i don't care if you're republican or democrat (and question anyone that feels good about affiliating themselves with either group), but when you have someone running for vice president with those beliefs...it's still about race.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on April 07, 2014, 04:30:30 PM
You should probably revisit your idea of adequate spending then.
There's roughly 50 million American's below the poverty line ($11,000 single adult, $23,000 family of four). If you count every American as a single adult and assume that there is zero income being brought in among those 50 million we could simply send checks out in the amount of 550 billion dollars and we'd completely eliminate poverty for the year.
Every year, the United States spends over 525 billion on poverty related programs, yet hasn't reduced the number of people in poverty at all. In fact the number has increased over the last five years. We simply do not count the money spent as reducing poverty.
If our country could take the same 550 billion dollars and send every single man, woman and child below the poverty line a check for $11,000 each we would have nobody in this country living in poverty every year, yet somehow the same amount of money is being spend on poverty related programs and we are not spending adaquately on the problem???
Longer response later, but:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/09/13/if-the-us-spends-550-billion-on-poverty-how-can-there-still-be-poverty-in-the-us/2/
Quote from: avid1010 on April 07, 2014, 04:47:51 PM
congressman ryan, who was just honored by marquette, just stated that we have generations of urban males not even looking for jobs, and when questioned on his comments referenced "the bell curve." i don't care if you're republican or democrat (and question anyone that feels good about affiliating themselves with either group), but when you have someone running for vice president with those beliefs...it's still about race.
I'm probably more on your side in this debate than not, but let's be fair to Ryan:
- there
are generations of urban males not even looking for jobs. This isn't a result of their race - and Ryan never claimed it was - it's a result of a system which fails to prepare people for the work, then fails to encourage and reward people who work in low-income jobs.
- he didn't reference the "Bell Curve," he referenced one of its authors in relation to one of his latter books, "Coming Apart," which is about the problems within the
white lower class.
Quote from: avid1010 on April 07, 2014, 04:47:51 PM
i felt this same way until i spent two years researching the hell out of it...from brown v. board of ed to current day. in some cases common sense says it's money, not race, but overall the statistics don't play out. white flight, nixon appointing judges that refused to support forced busing, etc...there's a reason many in the black community feel like they would have been better under plessy v. ferguson rather than brown v. board of ed. spend a little time listening to howard fuller on the MU campus...
congressman ryan, who was just honored by marquette, just stated that we have generations of urban males not even looking for jobs, and when questioned on his comments referenced "the bell curve." i don't care if you're republican or democrat (and question anyone that feels good about affiliating themselves with either group), but when you have someone running for vice president with those beliefs...it's still about race.
Yeah, because our politicians in Washington D.C. have such a nuanced understanding of this country and race...
Quote from: MUAlum on April 07, 2014, 04:58:26 PM
Longer response later, but:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/09/13/if-the-us-spends-550-billion-on-poverty-how-can-there-still-be-poverty-in-the-us/2/
As a Forbes subscriber I remember reading that article when it was published while I didn't specifically reference it earlier but used the general numbers as a guide in what I was trying to convey.
Reality is we could probably just send 300 billion dollars of checks to the same effect.
Quote from: Bleuteaux on April 07, 2014, 03:30:40 PM
Hell hath no fury like a defensive, middle aged, upper-middle class white dude in a multiracial society.
Some of us walk the walk, too many people talk the talk. I don't live in a white gated community like so many of my liberal friends who talk a big game, but come up woefully short. We chose to live where we did, turns out we are a minority in our town. When picking a neighborhood, same deal...we are minorities and it isn't close....we chose the neighborhood based on many things, whom lived next door or across the street did not matter one hill of beans. Love where we live, love our neighbors, the schools, etc. So we're a minority...no big deal to us.
Some people suffer from guilt all the time, in fact if they don't feel guilty about something they don't feel well. If people want to go through life feeling ashamed for the actions of other people, have at it. If people want to blame all Germans for the holocaust, that's on them...I'm not playing. No different than any other group. I'll hold someone accountable for THEIR actions, not those committed by someone 200 or 2000 years ago.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on April 07, 2014, 05:03:32 PM
As a Forbes subscriber I remember reading that article when it was published while I didn't specifically reference it earlier but used the general numbers as a guide in what I was trying to convey.
Reality is we could probably just send 300 billion dollars of checks to the same effect.
Sorry, didn't mean to imply you used the article for your response, just thought it partially addressed your point.
Quote from: MUAlum on April 07, 2014, 03:42:31 PM
Things like this leave me to believe you don't understand what I mean when I refer to "systematic discrimination." The driving force behind racial discrimination in the U.S. isn't employers who consciously prefer white candidates over others.
I understand it just fine...I've been around the block. It exists, no one is denying it. The issue for me is at what level does it still exist and how many people out there are furthering its existence for their own benefit. Nothing worse than seeing a bunch of "leaders" tell a community they cannot succeed, they cannot prevail, they have no hope whatsoever (which is all BS) in order to coddle support, votes, dollars, etc. It becomes a vicious cycle and a self fulfilling prophecy.
Tell a person enough times they have no chance and must rely on Uncle Sammy to survive and people start to believe it. Tell a person they can be more like Ben Carson, they might start to believe that, too, but that isn't the message nor is it ever going to be.
Quote from: MUAlum on April 07, 2014, 03:42:31 PM
Things like this leave me to believe you don't understand what I mean when I refer to "systematic discrimination." The driving force behind racial discrimination in the U.S. isn't employers who consciously prefer white candidates over others.
The individuals you hired had great qualifications and experience and that's terrific. But how did those people come to have such good experience? To have such qualifications? It's more than likely they were raised by families that had the resources to feed them well, assure all needed care was provided 24/7, and prioritize their education all the way through college. And good for them for making the most of their opportunities and landing a nice job.
But how about a child growing up in a Chicago housing project? Will he have access to the healthiest diets, best care, and best education? Probably not. Will it be impossible for him to succeed in life? Of course not. But it'll be exponentially more difficult.
It's not a fluke that African American people, for example, are much more likely to live in poverty, often without any access to quality education. Rather, it's due to the legacy of their treatment in this country for centuries, and a history of racism and discrimination is inherently the biggest part of that. So until disparities between races in income, quality of education, etc. are gone, systematic discrimination continues.
+1000
Love this guy. He says it much better than I ever could
Quote from: MUAlum on April 07, 2014, 03:51:20 PM
According to the 2010 census: 9.9% of white people live in poverty, while 28.4% of black people live in poverty.
There are two possible explanations I can see for this. One, white people are better workers than black people. Two, centuries of oppression against black people in the U.S. Common sense (as well as biology) tells us the former isn't true.
ONLY two explanations for this.....I see. Yup, can only be two.
Quote from: MUAlum on April 07, 2014, 03:42:31 PM
Things like this leave me to believe you don't understand what I mean when I refer to "systematic discrimination." The driving force behind racial discrimination in the U.S. isn't employers who consciously prefer white candidates over others.
The individuals you hired had great qualifications and experience and that's terrific. But how did those people come to have such good experience? To have such qualifications? It's more than likely they were raised by families that had the resources to feed them well, assure all needed care was provided 24/7, and prioritize their education all the way through college. And good for them for making the most of their opportunities and landing a nice job.
But how about a child growing up in a Chicago housing project? Will he have access to the healthiest diets, best care, and best education? Probably not. Will it be impossible for him to succeed in life? Of course not. But it'll be exponentially more difficult.
It's not a fluke that African American people, for example, are much more likely to live in poverty, often without any access to quality education. Rather, it's due to the legacy of their treatment in this country for centuries, and a history of racism and discrimination is inherently the biggest part of that. So until disparities between races in income, quality of education, etc. are gone, systematic discrimination continues.
To answer your question. On my current team, one is here on a work visa. She is Korean, but grew up in Sydney, Australia. She has an MBA from Emory. She's a MINORITY.
Also on my team, a Japanese American woman. Went to UCSB. She is a MINORITY.
Also on my team, a Hispanic American woman. Went to Loyola on a scholarship. She is a MINORITY.
Also on my team, a young man...gay and open about it. He is caucasian. He went to Penn. World class swimmer at one point in time.
Etc, etc with the rest of the team.
Most of my team is made up of minorities and mostly female. Busted their rear ends, worked hard, got an education, paid their dues, etc. Didn't let anyone tell them they couldn't do it, didn't let anyone tell them they had to rely on Uncle Sammy or that they had no chance in life because it was so unfair.
Somehow, they made it. Somehow, they didn't complain along the way, they just worked hard and made it.
Sorry, but I'm tired of the crowd that tells a group of people what they can't do, how they are not capable of achieving, how they need a big protective entity to survive. What a tremendous disservice to people.
Goddam, Chicos, you still don't get it, do you?
Quote from: wildbill sb on April 07, 2014, 11:01:58 PM
Goddam, Chicos, you still don't get it, do you?
:D
I get it just fine
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 07, 2014, 10:50:11 PM
To answer your question. On my current team, one is here on a work visa. She is Korean, but grew up in Sydney, Australia. She has an MBA from Emory. She's a MINORITY.
Straight out of the famous Sydney ghetto, I would presume. Wonder if her ancestors were enslaved and denied educations as well.
Quote from: brandx on April 07, 2014, 11:11:48 PM
Straight out of the famous Sydney ghetto, I would presume. Wonder if her ancestors were enslaved and denied educations as well.
First to go to college in her family...but keep throwing out excuses for people, raise the bar as high as possible, make sure that folks are beaten up and believe that they have no chance. That is the answer. That way we can keep the money flowing in, the guilt alive and well and the accountability at zero.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 07, 2014, 10:50:11 PM
To answer your question. On my current team, one is here on a work visa. She is Korean, but grew up in Sydney, Australia. She has an MBA from Emory. She's a MINORITY.
Also on my team, a Japanese American woman. Went to UCSB. She is a MINORITY.
Also on my team, a Hispanic American woman. Went to Loyola on a scholarship. She is a MINORITY.
Also on my team, a young man...gay and open about it. He is caucasian. He went to Penn. World class swimmer at one point in time.
Etc, etc with the rest of the team.
Most of my team is made up of minorities and mostly female. Busted their rear ends, worked hard, got an education, paid their dues, etc. Didn't let anyone tell them they couldn't do it, didn't let anyone tell them they had to rely on Uncle Sammy or that they had no chance in life because it was so unfair.
Somehow, they made it. Somehow, they didn't complain along the way, they just worked hard and made it.
Sorry, but I'm tired of the crowd that tells a group of people what they can't do, how they are not capable of achieving, how they need a big protective entity to survive. What a tremendous disservice to people.
Your three personal anecdotes aren't indicative of anything, and nobody here cares about your personal or professional background. Why do you insist on bringing your own life into everything? Oh, wait, I have a theory.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 07, 2014, 11:17:57 PM
First to go to college in her family...but keep throwing out excuses for people, raise the bar as high as possible, make sure that folks are beaten up and believe that they have no chance. That is the answer. That way we can keep the money flowing in, the guilt alive and well and the accountability at zero.
Well stated from your home in suburbia where Little Chico and Little Chico-ette are tucked safely in bed by Mom and Dad.
Meanwhile in the ghetto, Junior has other concerns. "I can't sleep when I keep hearing gunshots." "I hope I get breakfast tomorrow." "What avenue do I have to avoid today so I get home alive?" "Will I have a classroom without disruption so I can try to learn today?" "Are the dealers hanging out on my block again?"
Your arguments make it sound as though everyone has the same chances in life. I think we all know better.
Quote from: brandx on April 07, 2014, 11:56:14 PM
Well stated from your home in suburbia where Little Chico and Little Chico-ette are tucked safely in bed by Mom and Dad.
Meanwhile in the ghetto, Junior has other concerns. "I can't sleep when I keep hearing gunshots." "I hope I get breakfast tomorrow." "What avenue do I have to avoid today so I get home alive?" "Will I have a classroom without disruption so I can try to learn today?" "Are the dealers hanging out on my block again?"
Your arguments make it sound as though everyone has the same chances in life. I think we all know better.
While I don't dispute this reality, I've always wondered why that type of culture is glorified in our pop culture and emulated by those most negatively affected by that reality.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on April 08, 2014, 12:19:53 AM
While I don't dispute this reality, I've always wondered why that type of culture is glorified in our pop culture and emulated by those most negatively affected by that reality.
Wondered the same thing many times. And those glorifying it usually have "made" it and should be doing the exact opposite to help those still in that situation. I guess money talks in every culture.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 07, 2014, 05:09:01 PM
Some of us walk the walk, too many people talk the talk. I don't live in a white gated community like so many of my liberal friends who talk a big game, but come up woefully short. We chose to live where we did, turns out we are a minority in our town. When picking a neighborhood, same deal...we are minorities and it isn't close....we chose the neighborhood based on many things, whom lived next door or across the street did not matter one hill of beans. Love where we live, love our neighbors, the schools, etc. So we're a minority...no big deal to us.
Wow. Just warned the board about your "shtick", the "I'm a minority in my own community," blah, blah, blah. And here you go, right on cue. Congrats, Horatio, you've pulled yourself up by your bootstraps and made it in spite of being a white guy in America with educated and well to do parents in a loving, intact relationship. We all salute you for making it out of what must have been hell but how about a little Christian empathy for those without your incredible drive to rise above it all.
Lenny, I understand you and Chicos don't see eye to eye.
That being said, you being critical is counterproductive to this argument and represents what's wrong with this discussion. One of the main problems of today is that in past generations successful people were looked highly upon while today they are vilified for it.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on April 08, 2014, 01:11:12 AM
Lenny, I understand you and Chicos don't see eye to eye.
That being said, you being critical is counterproductive to this argument and represents what's wrong with this discussion. One of the main problems of today is that in past generations successful people were looked highly upon while today they are vilified for it.
Like most gov't and union workers
Quote from: MUAlum on April 07, 2014, 11:51:56 PM
Your three personal anecdotes aren't indicative of anything, and nobody here cares about your personal or professional background. Why do you insist on bringing your own life into everything? Oh, wait, I have a theory.
Does your theory include only two outcomes like your previous post? ;)
I don't know how Dr. Condoleeza Rice was able to do it, or Dr. Ben Carson, or millions of others. Fortunately, they didn't listen to the BS that is continually served to people from other people that merely want to control them, count on their votes and tell them they can't succeed in life because everyone is against them.
God Bless those folks and others that said screw that noise.
Quote from: brandx on April 07, 2014, 11:56:14 PM
Well stated from your home in suburbia where Little Chico and Little Chico-ette are tucked safely in bed by Mom and Dad.
Meanwhile in the ghetto, Junior has other concerns. "I can't sleep when I keep hearing gunshots." "I hope I get breakfast tomorrow." "What avenue do I have to avoid today so I get home alive?" "Will I have a classroom without disruption so I can try to learn today?" "Are the dealers hanging out on my block again?"
Your arguments make it sound as though everyone has the same chances in life. I think we all know better.
My argument is nothing of the kind. Some people are part of the lucky sperm club, some are born tall (do you know taller people get better jobs...should we lob off a few inches on people in the future?), some are born smarter, some are born bald, or male, or female, or left handed, or handicapped. My daughter has a disability, do you think I tell her every day what jobs in life she cannot have because of her disability? F no.
But that is what one side does all the time to people. "You can't succeed because you are oppressed"..."you can't succeed because someone doesn't want you to." It's crap. Of course some people have it better than others and some worse than others, but preaching constantly about the lack of hope, the inability to succeed, that hard work will get you nowhere is absolute B.S., yet we have "leaders" that do this all the time and are supported.
That's where I'm coming from.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on April 08, 2014, 01:11:12 AM
Lenny, I understand you and Chicos don't see eye to eye.
That being said, you being critical is counterproductive to this argument and represents what's wrong with this discussion. One of the main problems of today is that in past generations successful people were looked highly upon while today they are vilified for it.
Definitely true. Successful people are often held in contempt now, as if they didn't earn it, or it was handed to them. It used to be people that were successful were role models and someone to aspire to, but the left has destroyed that image quickly. It's never because of the work you did, it's something nefarious, devious, unethical that got you there. And oh, if you believe in God, well double the contempt.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 08, 2014, 12:30:59 AM
Wow. Just warned the board about your "shtick", the "I'm a minority in my own community," blah, blah, blah. And here you go, right on cue. Congrats, Horatio, you've pulled yourself up by your bootstraps and made it in spite of being a white guy in America with educated and well to do parents in a loving, intact relationship. We all salute you for making it out of what must have been hell but how about a little Christian empathy for those without your incredible drive to rise above it all.
Well to do parents...LOL. You know absolutely nothing about my parents. My dad died when I was in my 20s you a-hole. My mom was a school teacher for 40+ years until recently retiring...several strokes later and plenty of medical issues. You know absolutely nothing about my family.
I have plenty of Christian empathy and help people all the time. It is clear you don't understand this, nor would I ever expect you to. I ultimately choose to help people that are willing to help themselves. You can choose to do whatever you wish, I'm not going to judge you on it. For me, I don't believe in handouts, they accomplish nothing in my opinion. Teach a man to fish, don't just hand him the fish. Pretty simple principle to live by, but you can live your life any damn well you like, just as I will mine.
But please enjoy your gated community, I'm sure it is lovely.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 08, 2014, 01:33:21 AM
Does your theory include only two outcomes like your previous post? ;)
I don't know how Dr. Condoleeza Rice was able to do it, or Dr. Ben Carson, or millions of others. Fortunately, they didn't listen to the BS that is continually served to people from other people that merely want to control them, count on their votes and tell them they can't succeed in life because everyone is against them.
God Bless those folks and others that said screw that noise.
My grandfather and grandmother were graduated from Cal Berkeley. My grandfather earned a medical degree then set up a practice when he returned to California after post-doctoral work at Columbia.
They were married, owned a home, he had a practice taking care of people, they paid taxes, stressed education, and were active in their community. They had three sons and a daughter who studied hard and did what was expected of them. They were industrious, educated, well mannered, cultured, and obedient.
One day, government agents with weapons showed up and told them they had to leave their home and possessions. Each person was allowed one bag. My grandfather sold the house, cars, and his business in one day for less than $300.
They were forced to live in a stable for months then moved to a concentration camp where they were held behind barbed wire under armed guard. My grandfather practiced medicine for the community and my grandmother taught biology in the camp high school.
Each of their sons enlisted in the Army and fought in Europe. One earned a battlefield commission and one died at Little Cassino. My grandparents were given an American flag and his Silver Star while trapped in a city that warehoused people guilty of being different.
After several years they were allowed to return home. But where was home? Every material possession they had was gone. And nobody gave them a damn thing when they walked out the gates. More importantly, they never asked for anything. They rebuilt their lives from scratch.
And they always honored the son and brother who never came back. The one who died in Italy fighting for a country that stripped them of everything but their dignity.
In many ways, how we deal with adversity stems from our own personal dignity. My grandparents never spoke of that time in their lives other than oblique references. I cannot comprehend how debasing that experience must have been. And yet, as I reflect on these people, I saw nothing but strength, character, and wisdom. Never once did I ever hear any bitterness or anger.
Thanks for sharing Keefe.
I spent four years of my youth living in 3rd world countries (with my "well to do" parents) in Central America and South America. I suspect most of the people here saying how terrible certain folks have it have never even visited a 3rd world country, let alone lived in it day to day for four years. Hearty people, they find a way, and they don't have time for whining and complaining. Fortunately in this country there is an entire cottage industry to do it for them.
Some people walk the walk, most talk the talk
Quote from: keefe on April 08, 2014, 02:56:37 AM
My grandfather and grandmother were graduated from Cal Berkeley. My grandfather earned a medical degree then set up a practice when he returned to California after post-doctoral work at Columbia.
They were married, owned a home, he had a practice taking care of people, they paid taxes, stressed education, and were active in their community. They had three sons and a daughter who studied hard and did what was expected of them. They were industrious, educated, well mannered, cultured, and obedient.
One day, government agents with weapons showed up and told them they had to leave their home and possessions. Each person was allowed one bag. My grandfather sold the house, cars, and his business in one day for less than $300.
They were forced to live in a stable for months then moved to a concentration camp where they were held behind barbed wire under armed guard. My grandfather practiced medicine for the community and my grandmother taught biology in the camp high school.
Each of their sons enlisted in the Army and fought in Europe. One earned a battlefield commission and one died at Little Cassino. My grandparents were given an American flag and his Silver Star while trapped in a city that warehoused people guilty of being different.
After several years they were allowed to return home. But where was home? Every material possession they had was gone. And nobody gave them a damn thing when they walked out the gates. More importantly, they never asked for anything. They rebuilt their lives from scratch.
And they always honored the son and brother who never came back. The one who died in Italy fighting for a country that stripped them of everything but their dignity.
In many ways, how we deal with adversity stems from our own personal dignity. My grandparents never spoke of that time in their lives other than oblique references. I cannot comprehend how debasing that experience must have been. And yet, as I reflect on these people, I saw nothing but strength, character, and wisdom. Never once did I ever hear any bitterness or anger.
Keefe, you are Japanese? (making an assumption on the concentration camp thing...)
Thanks for sharing. I am furious at how this is still often swept under the rug in American history classes. Despicable and an embarrassing time of our country's history.
WWII may have been "The Good War," but we were not without our faults as a country.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 08, 2014, 09:14:54 AM
Thanks for sharing Keefe.
I spent four years of my youth living in 3rd world countries (with my "well to do" parents) in Central America and South America. I suspect most of the people here saying how terrible certain folks have it have never even visited a 3rd world country, let alone lived in it day to day for four years. Hearty people, they find a way, and they don't have time for whining and complaining. Fortunately in this country there is an entire cottage industry to do it for them.
Some people walk the walk, most talk the talk
Give it a rest. Living in a third world country as the son of an American citizen and professional (working for an oil company?) shouldn't be confused with living a true third world existence. And I'm very sorry that you lost your dad in your 20s. Honestly. But it doesn't have anything to do with your upbringing - that pretty much ends at 18.
Is it easy for a kid to have to move around some? I guess not, but you didn't grow up in a ghetto and you're not a victim now no matter how many times you play that card. Walk the walk? LOL.
Regarding your "gated community" crack, you are, as usual, way off base and out of line. I'm sure my upbringing was more humble than yours - but I'm not complaining - as a white kid born in America to loving parents I figure I'm among the most fortunate people on the planet. Grateful walks the walk. Whiners talk the talk.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 08, 2014, 11:17:28 AM
Give it a rest. Living in a third world country as the son of an American citizen and professional (working for an oil company?) shouldn't be confused with living a true third world existence. And I'm very sorry that you lost your dad in your 20s. Honestly. But it doesn't have anything to do with your upbringing - that pretty much ends at 18.
Is it easy for a kid to have to move around some? I guess not, but you didn't grow up in a ghetto and you're not a victim now no matter how many times you play that card. Walk the walk? LOL.
Regarding your "gated community" crack, you are, as usual, way off base and out of line. I'm sure my upbringing was more humble than yours - but I'm not complaining - as a white kid born in America to loving parents I figure I'm among the most fortunate people on the planet. Grateful walks the walk. Whiners talk the talk.
This. 99% of us Scoopers were born on third base.
Now, getting to home plate is still an accomplishment. It takes hard work, intelligence, and perseverance. But Chicos, make no mistake, you and I were both born on third base. If you are an American white male with access to a college education, you have a massive leg up on 75% of the rest of the population in our country, and a massive leg up over 99% of the rest of the world.
Many, many, people in our country have to start from home plate, and then advance four bases to get where we are. Them are facts. Do I feel guilty about it, as you suggest? No. But let's not deny the reality of the situation, and instead work towards a more equitable playing field.
Quote from: Bleuteaux on April 08, 2014, 10:06:56 AM
Keefe, you are Japanese? (making an assumption on the concentration camp thing...)
Thanks for sharing. I am furious at how this is still often swept under the rug in American history classes. Despicable and an embarrassing time of our country's history.
WWII may have been "The Good War," but we were not without our faults as a country.
Bluteaux
Funny you ask that question. My grandfather would have politely but firmly replied, "No, I am an American." More importantly, he would have left it at that.
Race is a funny thing. You cannot dismiss differences because they exist. Personally, I have chosen to celebrate the differences. Living around the world, I dove head first into the cultural waters. Another expat once asked why I 'wasted' time learning local languages. Cultural imperialism has many articulations - expecting a Javanese in Jakarta to speak English says more about the guest than the host.
As I look back on my own childhood, an Air Force family bounces around while never really putting down roots, but our journey was largely in Asia and Europe. And it was never in the South. It was never discussed but I am certain my parents made a conscious decision to avoid potential problems. Fortunately, it is better today, though still not perfect.
Prejudice is not the domain of any creed, complexion, or community. We are all equally guilty. When the National Park Service opened an exhibition at Ellis Island on the internment of American citizens of Japanese Ancestry in WWII the American Jewish Committee protested its use of "concentration camp." The AJC went so far as to file a law suit demanding that the Interior Department stop using that term in anything but mention of the "Holocaust." Only when the Jewish publisher of the NY Times wrote an editorial saying the AJC lawsuit was outrageous and an embarrassment did the AJC drop their action.
I am always amused at the venom and vigor expressed here on Scoop on matters of race, intolerance, and privilege by what is essentially a group of middle-upper middle class Caucasian males. My grandparents would have appreciated the irony.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 08, 2014, 11:17:28 AM
Give it a rest. Living in a third world country as the son of an American citizen and professional (working for an oil company?) shouldn't be confused with living a true third world existence. And I'm very sorry that you lost your dad in your 20s. Honestly. But it doesn't have anything to do with your upbringing - that pretty much ends at 18.
Is it easy for a kid to have to move around some? I guess not, but you didn't grow up in a ghetto and you're not a victim now no matter how many times you play that card. Walk the walk? LOL.
Regarding your "gated community" crack, you are, as usual, way off base and out of line. I'm sure my upbringing was more humble than yours - but I'm not complaining - as a white kid born in America to loving parents I figure I'm among the most fortunate people on the planet. Grateful walks the walk. Whiners talk the talk.
Again, you have zero idea what you are talking about, but you keep digging yourself deeper as if you did. Living in Panama, my mom and her children (my sister and I) attacked in our "luxurious" one bedroom apartment where the front door was essentially chopped down by a person with a machete and part of the apartment burned. Fortunately, neighbors (we lived with the Panamanian people, not in the embassy district or canal zone) bandied together. My mom still has the police reports, etc. Chilling to read. All kinds of fun embassy stuff we had to do as a result because its not too cool for either the US gov't or the Panamanian gov't. So please, you have no idea but you keep blathering away like you do with your generalities.
Peru, was a different story, we did live in the embassy district. Yet we saw REAL POVERTY all the time, unlike what happens here in the States. You want poverty, don't go looking in this country because you haven't seen a damn thing. You saw it daily. REAL poverty, not the poverty we have in this country where Joe Blow has his LCD TV, iPhone and foodstamps coming out of his ears. I'm talking REAL POVERTY....people dying on the streets...literally. You have no concept of what I'm talking about, because if you did you wouldn't make such outlandish statements.
Too many people talk the talk and don't walk the walk. Activism based bitching about the rich to pay more, or bagging on corporations is their calling card. Fantastic...pat yourselves on the back. To many of these talkers don't do charitable works, they don't roll up their sleeves and can't wait to provide the fish but never some accountability in forcing some folks to learn to fish.
I'll help who I can, but while some of these same talkers complain about how tough the world is while punching in the passcode to their gated community, their 99% lily white neighborhoods, never opening up their checkbook for charity or volunteering a second of their time....I don't have a whole lot of love for them. Sorry, I find those people hypocrites at the highest levels. I have a whole lot of love for those that want to be helped and work their butts off for it. There are people that do it all the time in this country (white, black, Hispanic, Asian, male, female, etc.). God bless them all, I enjoy helping these people. Unfortunately there are hucksters out there that don't want that to happen and make money on keeping people down and preaching to them that they can't make it. Support whom you wish, but don't pretend to know a second of my life since you didn't live it.
Quote from: Bleuteaux on April 08, 2014, 11:30:53 AM
This. 99% of us Scoopers were born on third base.
Now, getting to home plate is still an accomplishment. It takes hard work, intelligence, and perseverance. But Chicos, make no mistake, you and I were both born on third base. If you are an American white male with access to a college education, you have a massive leg up on 75% of the rest of the population in our country, and a massive leg up over 99% of the rest of the world.
Many, many, people in our country have to start from home plate, and then advance four bases to get where we are. Them are facts. Do I feel guilty about it, as you suggest? No. But let's not deny the reality of the situation, and instead work towards a more equitable playing field.
I'm surprised you didn't use the Lenny old stand by and say 100%...all...everyone...always...forever.
Sorry, 99% weren't born on 3rd base. You have no idea what you are talking about. You comment about 75% is also fraudulent, let alone completely made up out of your arse. So is your 99% comment over the rest of the world.
There is so much hyperbole in your paragraph here based on emotions and no actual facts, it is frightening.
Quote from: keefe on April 08, 2014, 01:11:21 PM
Prejudice is not the domain of any creed, complexion, or community. We are all equally guilty.
Bingo....unfortunately too many people don't believe this. What's worse, they preach that it isn't possible and it only divides people further.
I'll disagree with your comments, Keefe, on venom and race. The race card is played by people for a reason, because they have nothing else to play. If you disagree with the POTUS, you are racist. If you don't want Cuonzo Martin, you are racist (despite the fact you would do summersaults for Shaka Smart...go figure). It's the lowest of the low reactionary defense that people throw out there now and it is done all the time. It is beyond pathetic.
Quote from: keefe on April 08, 2014, 01:11:21 PM
You cannot dismiss differences because they exist. Personally, I have chosen to celebrate the differences. Living around the world, I dove head first into the cultural waters. Another expat once asked why I 'wasted' time learning local languages. Cultural imperialism has many articulations - expecting a Javanese in Jakarta to speak English says more about the guest than the host.
Keefe, I always suspected you picked up some languages along your way around the globe. I was fortunate to be an exchange student in France while in high school and it changed my whole life view. As an engineering student I was very disappointed at Marquette that I couldn't take any foreign languages as part of the non-engineering electives. I thought it to be very short-sighted. (I don't know if that has changed?) I did take a French 2 during my 1st semester at MU, but that was only due to a registration accident that I was not alowed to continue anytime during the next 7 semesters.
Somehow, somewhere I picked up a theme from the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles (of all places) that if you want to understand a culture you need to learn the language as it's the key. So I learned conversational Spanish (which was easy after French) & Polish (I have to speak to the in-laws somehow). I started to learn conversational Chinese until I was laid-off as there was no point to continue. I'll go back to it if I get another job that will take me back there. The Spanish helped me land two engineering jobs in the future to boot.
CBB, it is true that many paint with too broad of a brush. Lenny trying to tell your story for you is a prime example of that. But aren't you doing the same damn thing?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 08, 2014, 01:17:03 PM
Joe Blow has his LCD TV, iPhone and foodstamps coming out of his ears.
There are many, I would argue a majority, of people on food stamps who are working tirelessly to provide for their families. While some abuse the system, to paint them all as "Joe Blow" is not factual and only promotes what you are fighting against.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 08, 2014, 01:17:03 PM
To many of these talkers don't do charitable works, they don't roll up their sleeves and can't wait to provide the fish but never some accountability in forcing some folks to learn to fish.
Many of us hippie liberals recognize the fallacy of throwing more fish at the problem and work in organizations that seek to "teach people how to fish." For example, I volunteer at a day shelter that offers free classes on resume writing, computer skills, and job interviewing and try to connect people with jobs that match their skill set. Just because there a some "talkers that live in gated communities," it doesn't discredit the rest who are in the trenches working to fight poverty.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 08, 2014, 01:22:07 PM
I'll disagree with your comments, Keefe, on venom and race. The race card is played by people for a reason, because they have nothing else to play. If you disagree with the POTUS, you are racist. If you don't want Cuonzo Martin, you are racist (despite the fact you would do summersaults for Shaka Smart...go figure). It's the lowest of the low reactionary defense that people throw out there now and it is done all the time. It is beyond pathetic.
The race card is used more quickly and incorrectly than it should be. But if you don't think racism and privilege don't exist in this country, I don't know what to tell you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkpUyB2xgTM
I participated in a study similar to this one and found similar results. I'm curious what you think about it.
imho, the day i quit with the "pull yourself up" BS and realized there are plenty that are trying really hard in a system that makes it very difficult...was the day i became a much better and happier person. i guess we're all a part of our environment...but i count my blessings every night that i don't have the "just pull yourself up by your boot straps" mindset. i'll error on the side of compassion, and know that my compassion does nothing to enable or add to our country's poverty issues.
#1 The truth is, no 2 people on the planet are born in "equal" situations. I have no anecdotal evidence, I'm just looking at the facts.
#2 The goal for American society should be to provide a clear path of upward mobility for those who chose to take it. You want a better life? Here is how it's done, step 1, step 2, step 3. You can make it!
#3 That's it.
The problem is, #2 is REALLY HARD to achieve.
- On one hand, the free market is excellent at determining the "winners" and "losers" without any prejudice. Be the best at something, work hard, you'll be successful.
- On the other hand, there are still some systemic issues in this country that greatly influence a person's ability to be upwardly mobile. Not everybody is as evolved as Chicos. Not every school district is doing a good enough job. etc. etc.
- Also, institutional/generational wealth isn't necessarily contributing to the idea that hard work is all you need. Money begets money, begets money, begets money, etc. It's a club that is hard to crack, even for the middle class. Add to that the bureaucracy of big time politics, and the country is full of red tape and back door deals.
So what's the solution?
Honestly, I have no idea.
But, I can tell you that the people in this thread spouting off tired, oversimplified political cliches are a huge part of the problem.
Cut the BS. Use logic, common sense, compassion and honesty. Don't use "talking points" and cliches for either side of the aisle and expect something good to happen. It won't.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on April 08, 2014, 01:11:12 AM
Lenny, I understand you and Chicos don't see eye to eye.
That being said, you being critical is counterproductive to this argument and represents what's wrong with this discussion. One of the main problems of today is that in past generations successful people were looked highly upon while today they are vilified for it.
Matt - I am a great celebrator of people's successes - that includes Chico's. But when success comes without a scintilla of humility or gratitude it loses it shine IMO. Those truly successful in life (not just monetarily either) don't have to constantly pound their chests and shout about how wonderful they are.
....or how everybody else is a loser.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on April 08, 2014, 02:54:54 PM
#2 The goal for American society should be to provide a clear path of upward mobility for those who chose to take it. You want a better life? Here is how it's done, step 1, step 2, step 3. You can make it!
The beauty of America is that there is a clear path for upward mobility. And it is entirely up to the individual if he chooses to accept responsibility for himself and his destiny.
My maternal grandparents were born in this country of immigrants. Their parents arrived with nothing but worked their asses off to turn desert into productive farm land. Nobody gave them a penny - they earned everything they got in this life.
My great grandfather lived past 100 and, despite losing everything to the internment, often spoke of the opportunity available in America. But he also underscored the fact that hard work was essential to success and the most important component in a meritocracy is education. Everyone of his children was graduated from university and most earned advanced degrees.
People can speak of institutional prejudice but I can assure you that being Asian at the turn of the 20th Century in America meant that your opportunities were far more circumscribed by race than matters stand today. But Americans of Japanese ancestry embraced education and applied a ferocious work ethic with a responsibility-based value system to achieve incredible success against overwhelming structural barriers.
Issei and Nisei overcame daunting odds in the first half of the 20th Century to achieve financial and social security. And as a group, they lost 50 years of hard work with the stroke of a pen. They had latched on to the table scraps in the 1890's and turned wasteland in California, Washington, and Oregon into the most productive agricultural property in North America. And make no mistake, much of the rationale behind the Internment was a cynical land grab by Caucasians.
Collectively, Americans of Japanese ancestry do not speak of the Internment. The books written on the subject by Nisei and Sansei witnesses offer more introspection than recrimination. The Internment has never been a badge of honor or a Realpolitik bargaining chip. Instead, I think it is seen as part of the price of admission to the American Theatre.
I had earlier mentioned dignity. I often think of how those internees had been stripped of everything but their dignity and managed to regain their place in America by applying the same proven and trusted principles that had worked so well for the first 50 years here. They did so without anger or bitterness. They simply got on with it. The most simple, straight forward is often the most elegant.
In an interesting post-script,
after the war, four US Army Lieutenants went into town in uniform for haircuts and dinner. Each had lost a limb in combat and was wearing a Silver Star. One had the Congressional Medal of Honor.
They went into the town barbershop but were told they weren't welcome. They then tried to find a restaurant but were again turned away as "their kind" was not served. They ended up returning to base and eating at the Officers' Club. The Lt missing his left forearm was my uncle while the man wearing the Congressional Medal of Honor was Dan Inouye.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 08, 2014, 01:18:43 PM
I'm surprised you didn't use the Lenny old stand by and say 100%...all...everyone...always...forever.
Sorry, 99% weren't born on 3rd base. You have no idea what you are talking about. You comment about 75% is also fraudulent, let alone completely made up out of your arse. So is your 99% comment over the rest of the world.
There is so much hyperbole in your paragraph here based on emotions and no actual facts, it is frightening.
99% of Scoop is white, middle to upper-middle class males with a college degree, no? Probably grew up in a great school system, either a Catholic school or a nice suburban public school district. Probably had food security and a roof over their head. How is that false? How is that hyperbole?
Maybe I'm wrong. But I guarantee you that number is no lower than 90%
And if you really think that we weren't born into a better situation than 75% of the rest of the world, you need to open your eyes.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 08, 2014, 01:33:21 AM
Does your theory include only two outcomes like your previous post? ;)
I don't know how Dr. Condoleeza Rice was able to do it, or Dr. Ben Carson, or millions of others. Fortunately, they didn't listen to the BS that is continually served to people from other people that merely want to control them, count on their votes and tell them they can't succeed in life because everyone is against them.
God Bless those folks and others that said screw that noise.
Care to submit your own outcome?
You continually cite individual examples and anecdotes. Three people of color you know and a former Secretary of State are NOT indicative of a population consisting of tens of millions of people.
The sad part of this debate is that you're incapable of weighing other ideas than your own because your ego is so inflated. Your viewpoints, whether you realize this or not, are founded on your own experiences. You think you're part of a special, elite group of hard workers that could succeed regardless of upbringing or challenge. But you have no idea what it's like to survive without being born with a silver spoon in your mouth.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 08, 2014, 01:37:28 AM
My argument is nothing of the kind. Some people are part of the lucky sperm club, some are born tall (do you know taller people get better jobs...should we lob off a few inches on people in the future?), some are born smarter, some are born bald, or male, or female, or left handed, or handicapped. My daughter has a disability, do you think I tell her every day what jobs in life she cannot have because of her disability? F no.
But that is what one side does all the time to people. "You can't succeed because you are oppressed"..."you can't succeed because someone doesn't want you to." It's crap. Of course some people have it better than others and some worse than others, but preaching constantly about the lack of hope, the inability to succeed, that hard work will get you nowhere is absolute B.S., yet we have "leaders" that do this all the time and are supported.
That's where I'm coming from.
You're the only poster who has referenced "preaching" about a "lack of hope" and "inability to succeed." Frankly, I think individuals from tougher backgrounds are generally far stronger and more resilient than those who aren't. And nobody outside of teabaggers ever suggest otherwise.
This has NOTHING to due with work ethic. This has EVERYTHING to due with basic human fairness.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 08, 2014, 01:17:03 PM
Again, you have zero idea what you are talking about, but you keep digging yourself deeper as if you did. Living in Panama, my mom and her children (my sister and I) attacked in our "luxurious" one bedroom apartment where the front door was essentially chopped down by a person with a machete and part of the apartment burned. Fortunately, neighbors (we lived with the Panamanian people, not in the embassy district or canal zone) bandied together. My mom still has the police reports, etc. Chilling to read. All kinds of fun embassy stuff we had to do as a result because its not too cool for either the US gov't or the Panamanian gov't. So please, you have no idea but you keep blathering away like you do with your generalities.
Peru, was a different story, we did live in the embassy district. Yet we saw REAL POVERTY all the time, unlike what happens here in the States. You want poverty, don't go looking in this country because you haven't seen a damn thing. You saw it daily. REAL poverty, not the poverty we have in this country where Joe Blow has his LCD TV, iPhone and foodstamps coming out of his ears. I'm talking REAL POVERTY....people dying on the streets...literally. You have no concept of what I'm talking about, because if you did you wouldn't make such outlandish statements.
Too many people talk the talk and don't walk the walk. Activism based bitching about the rich to pay more, or bagging on corporations is their calling card. Fantastic...pat yourselves on the back. To many of these talkers don't do charitable works, they don't roll up their sleeves and can't wait to provide the fish but never some accountability in forcing some folks to learn to fish.
I'll help who I can, but while some of these same talkers complain about how tough the world is while punching in the passcode to their gated community, their 99% lily white neighborhoods, never opening up their checkbook for charity or volunteering a second of their time....I don't have a whole lot of love for them. Sorry, I find those people hypocrites at the highest levels. I have a whole lot of love for those that want to be helped and work their butts off for it. There are people that do it all the time in this country (white, black, Hispanic, Asian, male, female, etc.). God bless them all, I enjoy helping these people. Unfortunately there are hucksters out there that don't want that to happen and make money on keeping people down and preaching to them that they can't make it. Support whom you wish, but don't pretend to know a second of my life since you didn't live it.
Congrats for all this. I've lived in Bolivia myself. Didn't inform how I feel about race relations in the United States. I currently live in a NY neighborhood in which whites make up 1 in 10 individuals. Doesn't make me feel superior to other people. But that probably has something to do with my own comfortable upbringing, during which I was taught not to assume life circumstances are at exactly the same level of challenging for everybody.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on April 08, 2014, 02:07:46 PM
Keefe, I always suspected you picked up some languages along your way around the globe. I was fortunate to be an exchange student in France while in high school and it changed my whole life view. As an engineering student I was very disappointed at Marquette that I couldn't take any foreign languages as part of the non-engineering electives. I thought it to be very short-sighted. (I don't know if that has changed?) I did take a French 2 during my 1st semester at MU, but that was only due to a registration accident that I was not alowed to continue anytime during the next 7 semesters.
Somehow, somewhere I picked up a theme from the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles (of all places) that if you want to understand a culture you need to learn the language as it's the key. So I learned conversational Spanish (which was easy after French) & Polish (I have to speak to the in-laws somehow). I started to learn conversational Chinese until I was laid-off as there was no point to continue. I'll go back to it if I get another job that will take me back there. The Spanish helped me land two engineering jobs in the future to boot.
Nutmeg
I grew up in Tokyo speaking Japanese. In fact, the best thing my parents did was put me in the Japanese schools for K-3 rather than an international school. I got picked on at first because I was different but was readily brought into the fold by classmates who saw the person and not the hapa gaijin.
I have spent most of my life living in Asia so I picked up Mandarin and Bahasa along the way. Nothing engenders friendship better than conversing in the other fellow's tongue. And if one wishes to get off the beaten path then knowing the local dialect is essential.
I found that in business I was a candidate for many opportunities because I had not just linguistic but cultural fluency. One of the biggest disruptions for an international office is having an expat throw in the towel because of inability to adapt to the local culture. My wife and I both spoke numerous languages and both GE and Microsoft knew that we were safe bets for expat assignments.
In Japan, shopkeepers would always speak to me in Japanese while ignoring my spouse. I would play dumb while my blond-haired blue-eyed wife from Thiensville would answer in fluent Japanese. It never failed to render them speechless. I miss those days.
Last post on this:
What I care about is all people being afforded the same level of opportunity. I don't think some people should have to perspire to work hard labor 60 hours a week to support a family while others are born into families in which they could never work a day in their lives if desired.
Like it or not, vast disparities in opportunity exist in the U.S., and minority populations are FAR more likely to see the short end of that stick. Until that's changed, we have both racial and economic problems here. And that NEVER means a person NEEDS to be given a fair shake by our country. It means they deserve it.
Quote from: MUAlum on April 08, 2014, 04:09:53 PM
This has NOTHING to due with work ethic. This has EVERYTHING to due with basic human fairness.
Newsflash: Life is not fair. And it has everything to do with work ethic - more so for some than others.
As I have written, I have family who arrived with nothing, asked for nothing, and were certainly given nothing. After earning a station in life they had everything taken from them. Once more, a different generation had nothing, asked for nothing, and was certainly given nothing - other than bus fare from Manzanar to LA.
Today the Japanese American community has the highest level of education of any ethnic group and one of the highest per capita incomes in the US. Everything they have is through sheer effort and a very well defined sense of responsibility to themselves, their family, their community, and their nation. The Japanese word for this is on. On is the glue that binds together the Japanese community through an acute sense of obligation, responsibility, and honor.
Quote from: keefe on April 08, 2014, 04:00:11 PM
The beauty of America is that there is a clear path for upward mobility. And it is entirely up to the individual if he chooses to accept responsibility for himself and his destiny.
I really WANT to believe that.
I'm just not so sure it can be boiled down to that.
I'm not a big believer in socialism or redistribution of wealth, but the growing wealth gap is a concern to me, and I think the system in it's current form, isn't working as well as it should. We need to make some tweeks.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on April 08, 2014, 04:44:09 PM
I really WANT to believe that.
I'm just not so sure it can be boiled down to that.
I'm not a big believer in socialism or redistribution of wealth, but the growing wealth gap is a concern to me, and I think the system in it's current form, isn't working as well as it should. We need to make some tweeks.
How else would you explain the story of the Japanese American community for the past 130 years?
Quote from: keefe on April 08, 2014, 04:46:30 PM
How else would you explain the story of the Japanese American community for the past 130 years?
Ya, just to be clear, I'm not saying it can't be done... clearly there are talented people and cultures that have survived and overcome many obstacles.
I would just like to remove some of those obstacles in an effort to help people move up. The system isn't broken, but I'd like to see it tweeked (by people smarter than me).
Quote from: keefe on April 08, 2014, 04:46:30 PM
How else would you explain the story of the Japanese American community for the past 130 years?
I don't presume to more about Japanese-Americans than you, but I think the bolded word has a lot to do with it.
Quote from: keefe on April 08, 2014, 04:43:34 PM
Newsflash: Life is not fair. And it has everything to do with work ethic - more so for some than others.
As I have written, I have family who arrived with nothing, asked for nothing, and were certainly given nothing. After earning a station in life they had everything taken from them. Once more, a different generation had nothing, asked for nothing, and was certainly given nothing - other than bus fare from Manzanar to LA.
Today the Japanese American community has the highest level of education of any ethnic group and one of the highest per capita incomes in the US. Everything they have is through sheer effort and a very well defined sense of responsibility to themselves, their family, their community, and their nation. The Japanese word for this is on. On is the glue that binds together the Japanese community through an acute sense of obligation, responsibility, and honor.
"Life isn't fair" is not a satisfactory explanation for anything. If something can be made more fair, it should be.
It's terrific that Japanese Americans have fared well. But they're not inherently harder workers than other ethnic groups. Nor are they "better" in any other way.
Quote from: keefe on April 08, 2014, 04:43:34 PM
Newsflash: Life is not fair. And it has everything to do with work ethic - more so for some than others.
As I have written, I have family who arrived with nothing, asked for nothing, and were certainly given nothing. After earning a station in life they had everything taken from them. Once more, a different generation had nothing, asked for nothing, and was certainly given nothing - other than bus fare from Manzanar to LA.
Today the Japanese American community has the highest level of education of any ethnic group and one of the highest per capita incomes in the US. Everything they have is through sheer effort and a very well defined sense of responsibility to themselves, their family, their community, and their nation. The Japanese word for this is on. On is the glue that binds together the Japanese community through an acute sense of obligation, responsibility, and honor.
Quote from: MUAlum on April 08, 2014, 05:30:51 PM
"Life isn't fair" is not a satisfactory explanation for anything. If something can be made more fair, it should be.
Life will be as fair as human nature allows it to be.
Quote from: MUAlum on April 08, 2014, 05:30:51 PM
It's terrific that Japanese Americans have fared well. But they're not inherently harder workers than other ethnic groups. Nor are they "better" in any other way.
I did not say they are inherently harder working. Nor did I say they are better.
So what is your real point?
Quote from: keefe on April 08, 2014, 04:46:30 PM
How else would you explain the story of the Japanese American community for the past 130 years?
With all due respect to the accomplishments of the Japanese community, the long-term effects of the prejudice they've faced in this country vastly pales in comparison to a few centuries of slavery followed by a 100+ years of systematic discrimination that worked to deprive an entire race of their basic civil rights.
The Japanese-American and African-American experiences in the U.S. are not remotely comparable.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 08, 2014, 05:40:17 PM
With all due respect to the accomplishments of the Japanese community, the long-term effects of the prejudice they've faced in this country vastly pales in comparison to a few centuries of slavery followed by a 100+ years of systematic discrimination that worked to deprive an entire race of their basic civil rights.
The Japanese-American and African-American experiences in the U.S. are not remotely comparable.
--Edited--
They are of course comparable. You just did. What you're stating is that they are not equivelent, which I agree with.
Quote from: MUAlum on April 08, 2014, 04:21:33 PM
Congrats for all this. I've lived in Bolivia myself. Didn't inform how I feel about race relations in the United States. I currently live in a NY neighborhood in which whites make up 1 in 10 individuals. Doesn't make me feel superior to other people. But that probably has something to do with my own comfortable upbringing, during which I was taught not to assume life circumstances are at exactly the same level of challenging for everybody.
I don't feel superior to anyone either. Nor does ANYONE here, let alone me, assume that life circumstances are exactly the same. In fact, I clearly said they weren't.
My point is how we go about with policies, etc. Do we empower people, which is what I'm suggesting. Or do we tell them they have no chance, that the world is against them, they shouldn't bother. And how do you do that without one side screaming racism at the top of their lungs?
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on April 08, 2014, 04:44:09 PM
I really WANT to believe that.
I'm just not so sure it can be boiled down to that.
I'm not a big believer in socialism or redistribution of wealth, but the growing wealth gap is a concern to me, and I think the system in it's current form, isn't working as well as it should. We need to make some tweeks.
Guns - with regard to the growing wealth gap you may wish to read this commentary. You'll likely have to register, but registration's free.
http://www.mauldineconomics.com/frontlinethoughts/when-inequality-isnt
Quote from: MUAlum on April 08, 2014, 04:09:53 PM
You're the only poster who has referenced "preaching" about a "lack of hope" and "inability to succeed." Frankly, I think individuals from tougher backgrounds are generally far stronger and more resilient than those who aren't. And nobody outside of teabaggers ever suggest otherwise.
This has NOTHING to due with work ethic. This has EVERYTHING to due with basic human fairness.
Would you like countless examples of this....I'm happy to provide. Video and audio and then you can come back and talk about who ever suggested it.
How about this, $50 bet....you win, I'll donate to whatever cause you want. I produce the evidence, you make the donation to the American Juvenile Diabetes fund.
Game?
Quote from: MUAlum on April 08, 2014, 05:30:51 PM
"Life isn't fair" is not a satisfactory explanation for anything. If something can be made more fair, it should be.
It's terrific that Japanese Americans have fared well. But they're not inherently harder workers than other ethnic groups. Nor are they "better" in any other way.
To what extent? Are you going to dumb down the smart people? Make taller people shorter? Etc?
It's not fair they are smarter. It's not fair they are taller. It's not fair they might be better looking and get a TV news desk job where the ugly guy can't get it.
Life isn't fair. In the next life, I can't wait to live in unicorn land and make my demands on what everyone else in the world should pay (and I shall pay none, because that is the deal living in unicorn land) to make the world fair.
HARRISON BERGERON by Kurt Vonnegut.
Please read it, takes 10 minutes....all about fairness....what a great short story.
"The year was 2081, and everybody was finally equal....http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html
Quote from: AZWarrior on April 08, 2014, 05:51:03 PM
--Edited--
They are of course comparable. You just did. What you're stating is that they are not equivelent, which I agree with.
com·pa·ra·ble
adjective \ˈkäm-p(ə-)rə-bəl also kəm-ˈpa-rə-bəl, -ˈper-ə-\
—used to say that two or more things are very similar and can be compared to each other
1
: capable of or suitable for comparison
2
: similar, like <fabrics of comparable quality>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/comparable
Quote from: Pakuni on April 08, 2014, 06:15:45 PM
com·pa·ra·ble
adjective \ˈkäm-p(ə-)rə-bəl also kəm-ˈpa-rə-bəl, -ˈper-ə-\
—used to say that two or more things are very similar and can be compared to each other
1
: capable of or suitable for comparison
2
: similar, like <fabrics of comparable quality>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/comparable
Uh-huh. Two different cultures, both who had been discriminated against, were used as a basis for comparison. Nothing invalid that I saw.
Quote from: AZWarrior on April 08, 2014, 06:19:55 PM
I'd rather not get into a silly debate over the English language, but when one says two things are comparable, it means those things are alike, not that they're capable of being compared.
Anything is capable of being compared. that doesn't mean they're comparable. Only a moron would say "The sun and and my penlight deliver comparable amounts of light."
Quote from: Pakuni on April 08, 2014, 05:40:17 PM
With all due respect to the accomplishments of the Japanese community, the long-term effects of the prejudice they've faced in this country vastly pales in comparison to a few centuries of slavery followed by a 100+ years of systematic discrimination that worked to deprive an entire race of their basic civil rights.
The Japanese-American and African-American experiences in the U.S. are not remotely comparable.
Who compared the Japanese American experience with anyone? I certainly did not. And why is it even necessary to draw comparisons? Racism is not a zero sum game. It is. There is no index, is there?
Let me ask: Why did you compare the Japanese American experience with the African American experience?
Quote from: Pakuni on April 08, 2014, 06:27:04 PM
I'd rather not get into a silly debate over the English language, but when one says two things are comparable, it means those things are alike, not that they're capable of being compared.
Anything is capable of being compared. that doesn't mean they're comparable. Only a moron would say "The sun and and my penlight deliver comparable amounts of light."
I'm good with that. With the caveat of when two people disagree on whether two items are sufficiently similar to be validly compared, neither person should refer to the other as a "moron". There's way too much of that sort of thing on this board.
Quote from: keefe on April 08, 2014, 05:36:48 PM
I did not say they are inherently harder working. Nor did I say they are better.
So what is your real point?
I'm asking the same question of him (MUAlum)...where did anyone on this thread ever say anything about work ethic or anything of that nature.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 08, 2014, 06:07:26 PM
To what extent? Are you going to dumb down the smart people? Make taller people shorter? Etc?
It's not fair they are smarter. It's not fair they are taller. It's not fair they might be better looking and get a TV news desk job where the ugly guy can't get it.
Life isn't fair. In the next life, I can't wait to live in unicorn land and make my demands on what everyone else in the world should pay (and I shall pay none, because that is the deal living in unicorn land) to make the world fair.
Reducto ad absurdium. While it is not fair for taller people to get an advantage, no one (as far as I know) has been killed because they are short. Whereas people are still killed every day because of their ethnicity.
You are right that we will never live in a world that is fair. But that is no reason to stop fighting for it.
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." -
CS Lewis Edmond Burke.
I learned that quote my first semester at Marquette. Have tried to live by it ever since.
Quote from: Jay Bee on April 06, 2014, 08:48:16 PM
JDate is offensive. I've done stuff with Jewish girlies. Why it gotta be for Jewish singles?
Gesundheit.
BeeJay just get your schwantz filleted and its all gone.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 08, 2014, 06:07:26 PM
To what extent? Are you going to dumb down the smart people? Make taller people shorter? Etc?
It's not fair they are smarter. It's not fair they are taller. It's not fair they might be better looking and get a TV news desk job where the ugly guy can't get it.
Life isn't fair. In the next life, I can't wait to live in unicorn land and make my demands on what everyone else in the world should pay (and I shall pay none, because that is the deal living in unicorn land) to make the world fair.
HARRISON BERGERON by Kurt Vonnegut.
Please read it, takes 10 minutes....all about fairness....what a great short story.
"The year was 2081, and everybody was finally equal....
http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html
"Harrison Bergeron" from Vonnegut's absolutely brilliant "Welcome to the Monkey House" is indeed a great short story. And I agree that some of the "unfair" things in life (musical or athletic talent, for example) should be celebrated, never envied or compromised. That's not what any of the folks are talking about here, though, and you know that. Some of us just think that it's incumbent on those of us who were born with advantages not of our own doing to a) acknowledge it and b) look out for those who weren't.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on April 08, 2014, 07:04:42 PM
BeeJay just get your schwantz filleted and its all gone.
Doc
There's a haiku on that I believe
So I read everything (not really). Did we decide...basketball players or athletes?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 08, 2014, 07:02:42 PM
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." -CS Lewis.
I learned that quote my first semester at Marquette. Have tried to live by it ever since.
Except it's Edmund Burke, not C.S. Lewis.
Quote from: Sir Lawrence on April 08, 2014, 10:03:11 PM
Except it's Edmund Burke, not C.S. Lewis.
Whoops. Fixed it!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 08, 2014, 07:13:18 PM
"Harrison Bergeron" from Vonnegut's absolutely brilliant "Welcome to the Monkey House" is indeed a great short story. And I agree that some of the "unfair" things in life (musical or athletic talent, for example) should be celebrated, never envied or compromised. That's not what any of the folks are talking about here, though, and you know that. Some of us just think that it's incumbent on those of us who were born with advantages not of our own doing to a) acknowledge it and b) look out for those who weren't.
Well said. Better said in 4 sentences than what anyone else has said in this thread so far.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 08, 2014, 07:02:42 PM
Reducto ad absurdium. While it is not fair for taller people to get an advantage, no one (as far as I know) has been killed because they are short. Whereas people are still killed every day because of their ethnicity.
You are right that we will never live in a world that is fair. But that is no reason to stop fighting for it.
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." -CS Lewis.
I learned that quote my first semester at Marquette. Have tried to live by it ever since.
People have been killed for all kinds of reasons. Religion, color of their skin, political beliefs, too tall, too short, too rich, too poor, knew too much, didn't know enough....you name it.
I agree, there is no reason to stop fighting for what you believe to be unfair, the problem I have is who is the arbiter that decides WHAT is unfair and WHAT is the remedy. And to make matters worse, those who decide what is unfair may implement policies (in fact they already do) that are unfair in and of themselves. Apparently more unfairness to correct an unfairness?
Is it unfair that 47% pay no federal taxes and 53% do? A lot of people would say hell yes that's unfair. A lot of others would not. Is it fair that some people are smarter than others? Is it fair that ladies' get in free on Tuesday night's at the <insert bar here>? Is it fair that one kid can get a 2100 SAT and another get a 2100 SAT go to the same high school, same grades but one is admitted and one isn't?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 08, 2014, 10:10:30 PM
Whoops. Fixed it!
That means you've been living a lie since your freshman year. ;)
Quote from: Pakuni on April 08, 2014, 05:40:17 PM
With all due respect to the accomplishments of the Japanese community, the long-term effects of the prejudice they've faced in this country vastly pales in comparison to a few centuries of slavery followed by a 100+ years of systematic discrimination that worked to deprive an entire race of their basic civil rights.
The Japanese-American and African-American experiences in the U.S. are not remotely comparable.
Pakuni
Why did YOU make the comparison with African Americans? I made no comparison at all. So why did you introduce the African American experience into the equation?
I look forward to your response.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 08, 2014, 07:13:18 PM
"Harrison Bergeron" from Vonnegut's absolutely brilliant "Welcome to the Monkey House" is indeed a great short story. And I agree that some of the "unfair" things in life (musical or athletic talent, for example) should be celebrated, never envied or compromised. That's not what any of the folks are talking about here, though, and you know that. Some of us just think that it's incumbent on those of us who were born with advantages not of our own doing to a) acknowledge it and b) look out for those who weren't.
Nothing wrong with that but it is also incumbent on those of us to help those that need help to be able to fend for themselves at some point. To fish, not be fished for. It is also incumbent, IMO, not to push or support policies that don't achieve this aim, or worse, push people into thinking they cannot achieve on their own and to provide excuses and crutches as cover for which not to make the attempt.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 08, 2014, 07:02:42 PM
Reducto ad absurdium. While it is not fair for taller people to get an advantage, no one (as far as I know) has been killed because they are short. Whereas people are still killed every day because of their ethnicity.
You are right that we will never live in a world that is fair. But that is no reason to stop fighting for it.
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." -CS Lewis Edmond Burke.
I learned that quote my first semester at Marquette. Have tried to live by it ever since.
And statistically it occurs at the hands of those who share their same ethnicity.
Fairness is an illusion that should never be strived for. People confuse opportunity and fairness.
So much for a politics-free board.
Nothing has or will be solved by this BS thread.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 08, 2014, 10:47:21 PM
I agree, there is no reason to stop fighting for what you believe to be unfair, the problem I have is who is the arbiter that decides WHAT is unfair ...
Well ... of course ... I am!
Next question ...
Well, as far as the topic of extremely gifted athlete vs basketball savvy player.
I think you would like to have a mix of each.
What I do think happens though, is that coaches see the athletic ability of a player and believe they can mold said player into a great basketball player. "I can teach him the game" Problem is, just like its hard sometimes to developy athletic ability, its also hard sometimes to teach the nuances of the game to certain players. Its not all about over all intelligence either. Some kids just will never get "it". With regads to basketball savvy. The great players obviously usually have both.
Quote from: CoachesCorner on April 09, 2014, 11:57:56 AM
Well, as far as the topic of extremely gifted athlete vs basketball savvy player.
I think you would like to have a mix of each.
What I do think happens though, is that coaches see the athletic ability of a player and believe they can mold said player into a great basketball player. "I can teach him the game" Problem is, just like its hard sometimes to developy athletic ability, its also hard sometimes to teach the nuances of the game to certain players. Its not all about over all intelligence either. Some kids just will never get "it". With regads to basketball savvy. The great players obviously usually have both.
Sounds like a woman who is going to change her man once she marries him. ;)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 09, 2014, 06:38:55 PM
Sounds like a woman who is going to change her man once she marries him. ;)
Wait... is that not what happens?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 09, 2014, 06:38:55 PM
Sounds like a woman who is going to change her man once she marries him. ;)
Every woman's sworn duty to uphold...
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 09, 2014, 06:41:06 PM
Wait... is that not what happens?
Oh, they try, but rarely are successful.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 09, 2014, 06:58:35 PM
Oh, they try, but rarely are successful.
"What did you do?"
"I stopped for a beer with my buds after work. How about you?"
"I left the toilet seat up..."
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTp_qrBmiQW9eOHibjJJjWqbZa3e_KbBtZtSonMUIF2bX5ZgPuNFw)
Quote from: keefe on April 08, 2014, 04:27:32 PM
Nutmeg
I grew up in Tokyo speaking Japanese. In fact, the best thing my parents did was put me in the Japanese schools for K-3 rather than an international school. I got picked on at first because I was different but was readily brought into the fold by classmates who saw the person and not the hapa gaijin.
I have spent most of my life living in Asia so I picked up Mandarin and Bahasa along the way. Nothing engenders friendship better than conversing in the other fellow's tongue. And if one wishes to get off the beaten path then knowing the local dialect is essential.
I found that in business I was a candidate for many opportunities because I had not just linguistic but cultural fluency. One of the biggest disruptions for an international office is having an expat throw in the towel because of inability to adapt to the local culture. My wife and I both spoke numerous languages and both GE and Microsoft knew that we were safe bets for expat assignments.
In Japan, shopkeepers would always speak to me in Japanese while ignoring my spouse. I would play dumb while my blond-haired blue-eyed wife from Thiensville would answer in fluent Japanese. It never failed to render them speechless. I miss those days.
I saw an article on language in the USA this morning. The maps part was interesting. I would have guessed my states 3rd language would be Italian or Polish or Portuguese instead or French. I know there are tons of Quebecois here like myself just not as recent as the other groups.
What language does your state speak?http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2014/05/language_map_what_s_the_most_popular_language_in_your_state.html