MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Logi4three on December 18, 2013, 07:01:28 PM
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I joined a little late, but what I heard was as follows:
Deonte: is a stud and doesn't think he is as much of a stud as Buzz thinks he is a stud or the rest of his teammates think he is a stud, but is gaining more confidence.
Jamil Wilson: needs to be involved in every play. He had no defensive rebounds and only 1 offensive rebound in the first half and one in the second in the Ball State game. Buzz was clearly miffed about that. Said Jamil is more talented than Jimmy Butler, Jae and Lazar, but those guys were more hardcore all the time. He has to get to that point. Noted that we have "go get guys" who are to go get rebounds and "go guys" who are to clear out of the way, and right now Jamil (a go get guy) is averaging the same number of rebounds as De. Wilson (a go guy). He needs to be involved in every play.
Jake Thomas: thinks he has had a below average performance as a starter, but that he earns the right to start because he works hard every day and plays to the scouting report. No one has come close to taking his starting job away from him. Would like JJ to continue to grow, Todd to be consistantly good so that they could play more, but Jake is doing what he needs to do. Starters are picked by who earns it in practice. Surprised that he hasn't made more shots and thinks that he will. He got Vander's scholarship.
Got pissed at Homer for asking an Allen Iverson like question about why he is not starting the most talented guys. Buzz admitted that the most talented guys on the team are Jamil, Davante, Todd, JJ and Deonte and of those, only 1 starts. The others have to step it up and ring the bell each and every day to earn the right to start. Really heated about that type of questioning and said what would our culture be if we didn't start the guys who earned it day in and day out.
Davante: most talented offensive player he has coached, but isn't doing the things to earn starting. Said he told Davante that he is never going to beat out Otule at the 5 to start, so he needs to try to start at the 4 and simply isn't able to show he deserves it (noting he can't make morning practice, afternoon weight lifting, film review and morning practice the following morning like he should).
Best Xmas gift: was a huge Earl Campbell fan and got a signed Houston Oilers helmet and a picture with Earl.
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Spot on.
Totally respected the fact that Buzz believes those who work the hardest and bring it every day have earned the right to get recognized by students, alumni and long time season ticket holders via player introductions.
Think back to MU Basketball Revealed when Buzz was screaming at the guys during Boot Camp about the fact that the hardest workers play. "It doesn't matter how good you are Vander!! You've got to be the toughest to play for me. The toughest 5 play. No exceptions!"
Funny. He coaches 'em up the same way every year. Some can't survive. If enough do, we dance deep. Book it.
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Audio link
http://espnmilwaukee.com/common/page.php?pt=av_marquettebball&id=431#
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Buzz admitted that the most talented guys on the team are Jamil, Davante, Todd, JJ and Deonte and of those, only 1 starts. The others have to step it up and ring the bell each and every day to earn the right to start. Really heated about that type of questioning and said what would our culture be if we didn't start the guys who earned it day in and day out.
How concerned should we be that only one of the five best players are working hard enough in practice to earn a start?
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How concerned should we be that only one of the five best players are working hard enough in practice to earn a start?
Not concerned in the least. Once the games get going, the best players always play the most important minutes if they are bringing it.
It's a motivational thing, the carrot at the end of the stick. It's like Louis Gossett taunting "Mayonnaise." Hell, maybe Buzz should call Todd that!
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I wish it would shut up all the posters who whine about the best/most talented players starting. But this won't. Oh well.
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How concerned should we be that only one of the five best players are working hard enough in practice to earn a start?
Remember that two are Frosh so I'm not worried. Not to pick on Todd but does anyone really believe he's shown Buzz any reason to start him over Jake?
One other thing that was very interesting about Buzz' preparation over the last week. There was a discussion about a classroom session where each player was challenged to describe what HE needed to bring to the team both in writing and in verbal presentation. Later, Buzz supplemented that with other things he (Buzz) needed. Now a mix-tape is being prepared for viewing in Las Vegas pointing out how (or how not) guys achieved those objectives.
Derrick was used as an example. Take up the space when they sag defensively just like Homer said on radio, force contact and get to the line or force defensive rotation as you get to the hole. You guys see Derrick's stat line last night in limited minutes? I can picture Buzz rolling the projector forward and back a la Vince Lombardi. "That's what I want! That's what you said you'd deliver."
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I wish it would shut up all the posters who whine about the best/most talented players starting. But this won't. Oh well.
I wish he wouldn't throw his players under the bus like that by name snicker snicker...like some other coaches do...snicker snicker
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Hopefully he ended it with something along the lines of "What's your next dumb ass question"?
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How concerned should we be that only one of the five best players are working hard enough in practice to earn a start?
Not at all concerned because it doesn't happen in a vacuum. It depends on the relativity of it all. If the less talent are bringing 10s and the talent is bringing 9 that's "fine". If the talent is bringing a 4...that's not fine. Relative to the team Buzz thinks the talent could do more. Doesn't mean it's bad
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I wish it would shut up all the posters who whine about the best/most talented players starting. But this won't. Oh well.
+1
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I wish he wouldn't throw his players under the bus like that by name snicker snicker...like some other coaches do...snicker snicker
Because saying the hardest working kids in practice earn starting positions is the same as telling people your coaching/game plan was perfect but your players screwed up. Sounds objective to me.
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I wish it would shut up all the posters who whine about the best/most talented players starting. But this won't. Oh well.
It will only perpetuate. It depends what kind of fan you want to be. Me personally, I want to see the most talented players get minutes, I really don't care if they are diving on the floor in practice. Within reason of course. I think it's great that Thomas works hard and probably is more dedicated than some, but he's a below average basketball player. It's likely the reason kids transfer, know they are more talented than those playing in front of them, but don't see the minutes.
Buzz always preaches about his priorities, with basketball being last....and that's how he recruits and coaches. So more power to him, he's trying to build men and faith that wins will follow.
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It will only perpetuate. It depends what kind of fan you want to be. Me personally, I want to see the most talented players get minutes, I really don't care if they are diving on the floor in practice. Within reason of course. I think it's great that Thomas works hard and probably is more dedicated than some, but he's a below average basketball player. It's likely the reason kids transfer, know they are more talented than those playing in front of them, but don't see the minutes.
Buzz always preaches about his priorities, with basketball being last....and that's how he recruits and coaches. So more power to him, he's trying to build men and faith that wins will follow.
Not starting isn't limiting the minutes of any of these guys. Like others have said, practice is determining who starts and talent is dictating who's on the court when the game's on the line. Sure, not starting could drive guys away, but to them I say good riddance. Guys like Jamil and Davante understand their role in the system and thrive, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
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I wish he wouldn't throw his players under the bus like that by name snicker snicker...like some other coaches do...snicker snicker
Begging for it again! Brings up the Buyout Boy nonstop.
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Begging for it again! Brings up the Buyout Boy nonstop.
If I had a dollar....
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It's likely the reason kids transfer, know they are more talented than those playing in front of them, but don't see the minutes.
Buzz always preaches about his priorities, with basketball being last....and that's how he recruits and coaches.
These two statements seem to be in conflict. If buzz preaches his priorities (including, one would think, how you earn minutes, start, etc.) while recruiting, then why would a player leave? The player should have known what he was getting himself into while he was being recruited.
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These two statements seem to be in conflict. If buzz preaches his priorities (including, one would think, how you earn minutes, start, etc.) while recruiting, then why would a player leave? The player should have known what he was getting himself into while he was being recruited.
You're assuming that a 17 to 19 year kid thinks the same way as a 50 year old man.
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You're assuming that a 17 to 19 year kid thinks the same way as a 50 year old man.
That's what I'm thinking. The kid probably does think he works hard, but it sounds like Marquette takes it to another level. Just a thought, I don't know any of the players or even seen a practice.
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You're assuming that a 17 to 19 year kid thinks the same way as a 50 year old man.
No, he's assuming that the recruit and his family were listening when Buzz was recruiting them. Some aren't (see Tim Maymon). Even if they're real good (as Jeronne was), it doesn't end well.
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Not to pick on Todd but does anyone really believe he's shown Buzz any reason to start him over Jake?
Ahh....yes....he's a much more talented and productive player. Period. But, Buzz has his principles, and Todd still isn't doing enough apparently to supplant Jake in that role. However, I do believe when it comes gut check time, and in conference play - we'll see Todd playing more minutes than Jake....and more frequently at crunch time, than Jake.
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Jamil and Gardner came off the bench almost all last season. Did it matter?
Gardner comes off the bench this season. Does it matter?
Are we still on this?
Now let's talk playing time. That's a subject worth discussing.
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Well there maybe games that it takes playing the most talented players to win (see SDSU, ASU). Unless it just about rewarding the hardest workers, not sure the NCAA committee uses that criteria when selecting teams.
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Well there maybe games that it takes playing the most talented players to win (see SDSU, ASU). Unless it just about rewarding the hardest workers, not sure the NCAA committee uses that criteria when selecting teams.
Right, and the exact same approach that he's taken every year since hes been here hasn't worked at all, has it? Not sure if you've been paying attention, but it seems to me the selection committee has looked at MU rather favorably the past few years. Buzz should definitely change the way he goes about things...on your recommendation of course.
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Right, and the exact same approach that he's taken every year since hes been here hasn't worked at all, has it? Not sure if you've been paying attention, but it seems to me the selection committee has looked at MU rather favorably the past few years. Buzz should definitely change the way he goes about things...on your recommendation of course.
Great point! Any coach who gets paid more than 99% of the population should have no obligation to give his team the best chance to win at this extremely lofty salary where a nation of fans also count on him as well.
Tomorrow I'm telling my boss I'm canceling UPS and FedEx for a delivery service that costs twice as much and is twice as slow because I think they have a superior attitude and spirit.
It doesn't matter if the FedEx performed like Junior, Vander and DJO. It also doesn't matter that FedEx now has Mayo, JJJ, Dawson like replacements. I'm still switching to Jake, Derrick & Juan service because I'm confident that the NCAA committee will overlook the fact that we have no quality wins and will instead focus on our values and our record from 2011 and 2012 when we were in the AP top 15 going into the tournament.
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Great point! Any coach who gets paid more than 99% of the population should have no obligation to give his team the best chance to win at this extremely lofty salary where a nation of fans also count on him as well.
Tomorrow I'm telling my boss I'm canceling UPS and FedEx for a delivery service that costs twice as much and is twice as slow because I think they have a superior attitude and spirit.
It doesn't matter if the FedEx performed like Junior, Vander and DJO. It also doesn't matter that FedEx now has Mayo, JJJ, Dawson like replacements. I'm still switching to Jake, Derrick & Juan service because I'm confident that the NCAA committee will overlook the fact that we have no quality wins and will instead focus on our values and our record from 2011 and 2012 when we were in the AP top 15 going into the tournament.
It's been statistically shown several times that derrick is basically performing as well as junior did.
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Right, and the exact same approach that he's taken every year since hes been here hasn't worked at all, has it? Not sure if you've been paying attention, but it seems to me the selection committee has looked at MU rather favorably the past few years. Buzz should definitely change the way he goes about things...on your recommendation of course.
10 years ago (or more) an MU team "on the bubble" is almost automatically out because most people think Marquette is in Northern Michigan and there's only 3 people up there pissed off if we're out.
Now, an MU team on the bubble is IN because of 3 things:
a) Buzz
b) On any given day, a Buzz team can beat anyone
c) Hustle, drive, energy, whatever you want to call it.
We may need that advantage this year. I hope not... but we may need it.
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If I had a dollar....
This one I will agree, that was baiting
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I'm a little confused by some of Buzz's comments. He says that Jamil isn't "hardcore" all the time. To me this is indicating a lack of intensity. But he also preaches that the 5 toughest start. Yet Jamil still starts while the other 4 in the list of most talented players come off the bench despite showing more intensity. Just seems odd.
But I agree with MU82. Starting means jack. It's all about playing time
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Great point! Any coach who gets paid more than 99% of the population should have no obligation to give his team the best chance to win at this extremely lofty salary where a nation of fans also count on him as well.
Yeah, I sure wish we'd fire this bum and get a coach who could get us into the second weekend of the NCAA tournament more often!
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This one I will agree, that was baiting
Keep watching Eagle--soon there will be more than just one you agree with---closer to most if not all.
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It's been statistically shown several times that derrick is basically performing as well as junior did.
Those pesky statistics never get manipulated or lie. Check one other statistic MU wins and losses and their current ranking compared to when Junior was a junior or senior at this time. Also it's hard to quantify the statistical impact of teams laying off the point guard and forcing him to shoot from the outside and/or double team other players due to the lack of a threat on a team's offense.
edit: to remove pointless political commentary
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Great point! Any coach who gets paid more than 99% of the population should have no obligation to give his team the best chance to win at this extremely lofty salary where a nation of fans also count on him as well.
Tomorrow I'm telling my boss I'm canceling UPS and FedEx for a delivery service that costs twice as much and is twice as slow because I think they have a superior attitude and spirit.
It doesn't matter if the FedEx performed like Junior, Vander and DJO. It also doesn't matter that FedEx now has Mayo, JJJ, Dawson like replacements. I'm still switching to Jake, Derrick & Juan service because I'm confident that the NCAA committee will overlook the fact that we have no quality wins and will instead focus on our values and our record from 2011 and 2012 when we were in the AP top 15 going into the tournament.
Your analogy is quite a stretch. It isn't as if our best players aren't playing the lion's share of the minutes. They simply aren't starting.
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Yeah, I sure wish we'd fire this bum and get a coach who could get us into the second weekend of the NCAA tournament more often!
We live in a what have you done for me lately society. Buzz has been great and will probably be great again but this year he has been stubborn and stupid at times and ultimately a coach like him who gets big money to be the leader and face of the program is paid to win bball games and not lose them. This team is very talented so we can't reward him with a rebuilding year excuse either.
Many coaches who have won championships have later gone on to be fired (Brian Billick, Mike Ditka, Gene Chizek, etc.). Doesn't make them a horrible coach all the sudden but just means they were no longer getting the wins they used to get and you get paid to win games in the moment and not just what your résumé states you did in the past.
I think Buzz has a chance to be a future legend and win championships but doesn't mean he has been wrong at times this year either. This team could go on to the Final 4 this year as they have that much potential but they won't be getting there by not getting our best/most talented players the lion share of the minutes. I also understand that you can't coddle great players and not make them work hard every day and be accountable. However you walk a fine line when the drop off in talent is as severe as it is between your starting backcourt and the guys who get less minutes coming off the bench.
The fact that Buzz got so testy just means it's a sore subject as he is probably hearing it from his players, his assistants, the fans and maybe even from his wife at night. ;)
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Goodness did this thread blow up since the last time I checked.
I'll say this, Buzz has always been about the toughest starting and getting at least respectable minutes if you've paid attention. And he's coached us consistently deep into the tournament on runs that apart from the 77 championship rival Al's legacy.
Is anyone on this board really going to suggest that they know a better way for us? Really?
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Your analogy is quite a stretch. It isn't as if our best players aren't playing the lion's share of the minutes. They simply aren't starting.
Like in the OSU game when he shortened the rotation and Deonte Burton was the only freshman to get off the bench and for only like six minutes at that. The end result of that fiasco was 35 total points, 19,000 fans given nothing to cheer for and national tv embarrassment for the new conference.
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Well there maybe games that it takes playing the most talented players to win (see SDSU, ASU). Unless it just about rewarding the hardest workers, not sure the NCAA committee uses that criteria when selecting teams.
We may of lost to ASU, because Mayo did not play due to ankle sprain. We may of lost to San Diego St, because Gardner was sick. We may of lost to UW, because Mayo was suspended. Throw in Taylor's knee problems. Three losses are not due to playing less talented players, but are due to injury/illness/suspension of key players.
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We live in a what have you done for me lately society.
There is certainly a segment of our society who feel and act that way, just as there's a certain segment of this board who feel and act that way. Pretty vacant philosophy to live by IMO, but if it works for you by all means carry on.
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We live in a what have you done for me lately society. Buzz has been great and will probably be great again but this year he has been stubborn and stupid at times and ultimately a coach like him who gets big money to be the leader and face of the program is paid to win bball games and not lose them. This team is very talented so we can't reward him with a rebuilding year excuse either.
Many coaches who have won championships have later gone on to be fired (Brian Billick, Mike Ditka, Gene Chizek, etc.). Doesn't make them a horrible coach all the sudden but just means they were no longer getting the wins they used to get and you get paid to win games in the moment and not just what your résumé states you did in the past.
I think Buzz has a chance to be a future legend and win championships but doesn't mean he has been wrong at this times this year either. This team could go on to the Final 4 this year as they have that much potential but they won't be getting there by not getting our best/most talented players the lion share of the minutes. I also understand that you can't coddle great players and not make them work hard every day and be accountable. However you walk a fine line when the drop off in talent is as severe as it is between your starting backcourt and the guys who get less minutes coming off the bench.
The fact that Buzz got so testy just means it's a sore subject as he is probably hearing it from his players, his assistants, the fans and maybe even from his wife at night. ;)
Fire the bum and bring in one of the hot young studs who win big-time every single year. I mean, Shaka Smart got VCU all the way to the second round each of the last two seasons -- try THAT, Buzz! -- and he has them at 9-3 this year with impressive wins over Winthrop, Wofford and (in OT) Eastern Kentucky!! Yeah, that's the ticket!
Buzz? Fire the bum! We haven't even won the national title under him yet!!!
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Like in the OSU game when he shortened the rotation and Deonte Burton was the only freshman to get off the bench and for only like six minutes at that. The end result of that fiasco was 35 total points, 19,000 fans given nothing to cheer for and national tv embarrassment for the new conference.
well, at least you got your name right.
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One thing I am ABSOLUTELY SURE OF is that Buzz wants to win EVERY GAME and WIN NOW. Everything he does is ultimately based on that. If he is starting Jake it is because he believes that the resulting modivation or team chemistry or whatever is more likely to create a situation where he wins and wins now. Sometimes as a long term fan I feel that maybe we would be better off playing the younger guys more because we'll be better next year. But history has shown that Buzz always plays to win now. We may have opinions that playing this guy or sitting this guy would make the team better but in Buzz's mind he is doing what gives the current team the best chance to win. I sometimes question what he does (which incidently is my right as a fan) but ultmately his plan is more likely to be right than any of ours and so I'll just go with it and hope it turns out right.
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We may of lost to ASU, because Mayo did not play due to ankle sprain. We may of lost to San Diego St, because Gardner was sick. We may of lost to UW, because Mayo was suspended. Throw in Taylor's knee problems. Three losses are not due to playing less talented players, but are due to injury/illness/suspension of key players.
We didn't may of anything, but we may have.
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I sometimes question what he does (which incidently is my right as a fan) but ultmately his plan is more likely to be right than any of ours and so I'll just go with it and hope it turns out right.
This is my general approach with everything Buzz does.
He's not infallible, but his track record is good, and we've all lived through the 5 year evaluation period.
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Begging for it again! Brings up the Buyout Boy nonstop.
I didn't mention anyone by name because it's more than one coach, but it does play into what I've always said....not ok for another coach <fill in number of coaches here slammed> to do it, but its okie-dokie for ours to do it. You can fill in any other coach you want, those other coaches have been slammed here for doing it. Interesting
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There is certainly a segment of our society who feel and act that way, just as there's a certain segment of this board who feel and act that way. Pretty vacant philosophy to live by IMO, but if it works for you by all means carry on.
Pretty judgemental yourself aren't you Lenny. If someone doesn't think like you they are vacant?
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This is my general approach with everything Buzz does.
He's not infallible, but his track record is good, and we've all lived through the 5 year evaluation period.
I agree as well, though I would say the jury is still out as to playing Jake as a starter. MU still lost to OSU, @ASU, SDSU (semi-neutral) and @UW. So, I'm not sure having Jake playing starter minutes has given MU a better chance of winning, though I'm willing to recognize that 3 games were on the road and that MU was simply not ready for OSU regardless of Jake's performance. Upcoming games in Vegas and Omaha will give us a better view of how things are evolving.
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Because saying the hardest working kids in practice earn starting positions is the same as telling people your coaching/game plan was perfect but your players screwed up. Sounds objective to me.
Or saying one doesn't work hard enough....some here view that as a slam....if said by any number of other coaches.
Look, I actually agree with you, certain kids need different motivations.
This is why when people get bent when other coaches call out kids....eh....maybe that is what they need.
For the others.....
Not sure why people missed the teal, missed the word coaches, but then again people read what they want to read whether the actual words are there or not.
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I agree as well, though I would say the jury is still out as to playing Jake as a starter. MU still lost to OSU, @ASU, SDSU (semi-neutral) and @UW. So, I'm not sure having Jake playing starter minutes has given MU a better chance of winning, though I'm willing to recognize that 3 games were on the road and that MU was simply not ready for OSU regardless of Jake's performance. Upcoming games in Vegas and Omaha will give us a better view of how things are evolving.
Yea, but I guess for me there is a methodology to Buzz's madness.
I'm sure I could sit here and shake my first about Jake starting, but I also have to defer to the guy who gets paid millions to manage the team. Buzz might be crazy, but he ain't stupid. Jake is starting for a reason(s) (motivation, he's the best player, he's the most consistent, etc.)
At some point, Todd and/or JaJuan might take over the role, but for now, Jake is the guy.
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Well there maybe games that it takes playing the most talented players to win (see SDSU, ASU). Unless it just about rewarding the hardest workers, not sure the NCAA committee uses that criteria when selecting teams.
Talent in Division I can be overrated when the "talented ones" are playing undisciplined ball and/or coasting.
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Pretty judgemental yourself aren't you Lenny. If someone doesn't think like you they are vacant?
I also think that Sharia Law is brutal, communism on any major scale becomes totalitarian and apartheid is evil. Those are judgements, opinions that millions disagree with. Everyone is judgemental, has opinions. As I said, you believe in living the "what have you done for me lately" philosophy, go for it. I also believe in freedom of thought and expression.
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Great point! Any coach who gets paid more than 99% of the population should have no obligation to give his team the best chance to win at this extremely lofty salary where a nation of fans also count on him as well.
Tomorrow I'm telling my boss I'm canceling UPS and FedEx for a delivery service that costs twice as much and is twice as slow because I think they have a superior attitude and spirit.
It doesn't matter if the FedEx performed like Junior, Vander and DJO. It also doesn't matter that FedEx now has Mayo, JJJ, Dawson like replacements. I'm still switching to Jake, Derrick & Juan service because I'm confident that the NCAA committee will overlook the fact that we have no quality wins and will instead focus on our values and our record from 2011 and 2012 when we were in the AP top 15 going into the tournament.
You do an awesome job living up to your moniker.
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At some point I would think recruits would take notice of Buzz's playing rotations. If im a highly regarded recruit, would I want to come to a place where someone who was gonna be a walk on and clearly not as talented, get the lions share of the minutes because they practice better but dont show up in games? Derrick and Thomas are not game changers and havent proven to be more than marginal at best. I get Derrick starting (reluctantly) due to Duane's injury but Jake starting over Mayo and JJJ is just ridiculous!
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At some point I would think recruits would take notice of Buzz's playing rotations. If im a highly regarded recruit, would I want to come to a place where someone who was gonna be a walk on and clearly not as talented, get the lions share of the minutes because they practice better but dont show up in games? Derrick and Thomas are not game changers and havent proven to be more than marginal at best. I get Derrick starting (reluctantly) due to Duane's injury but Jake starting over Mayo and JJJ is just ridiculous!
If a recruit is opposed to having to earn his minutes and do what's expected of him off the court, I don't think Buzz would want him anyway. There's more to the story than just Jake being a better practice player than Mayo.
Watch JJJ on defense. You'll see why he's not getting more minutes. PT will come though.
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MU just played two cupcakes letting the freshman get more involved, more minutes, lets see Saturday how Derrick, Jake and Juan play against equal competition. Lets see who can score
on the road. This will be a telling game for all 3? If they do not pick there game up, then JJJ, Burton and Mayo should deserve more time. Jake can barely get a shot up against a good
defensive team.
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I'm a little confused by some of Buzz's comments. He says that Jamil isn't "hardcore" all the time. To me this is indicating a lack of intensity. But he also preaches that the 5 toughest start. Yet Jamil still starts while the other 4 in the list of most talented players come off the bench despite showing more intensity. Just seems odd.
But I agree with MU82. Starting means jack. It's all about playing time
Everyone knows, who played competitive sports, that if you're good enough then you don't have to work as hard. It's a cute story to tell, but if you are the best player you're playing regardless. Again, within reason.
And it's the same in all walks of life, so best to get used to it early.
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Everyone knows, who played competitive sports, that if you're good enough then you don't have to work as hard. It's a cute story to tell, but if you are the best player you're playing regardless. Again, within reason.
And it's the same in all walks of life, so best to get used to it early.
He's trying to get the more talented players to work harder. When that happens, hopefully we'll be a better team overall, and it will make those players better players and help them reach their full potential. Buzz is sacrificing early season success with the hopes of better late season success. It may or may not be the right way, and it can be frustrating to watch for us fans, but its clearly what Buzz has done his entire career here, and we shouldn't expect to see anything different, whether we agree or not.
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If a recruit is opposed to having to earn his minutes and do what's expected of him off the court, I don't think Buzz would want him anyway. There's more to the story than just Jake being a better practice player than Mayo.
Watch JJJ on defense. You'll see why he's not getting more minutes. PT will come though.
While I generally agree with this, I don't feel JJJ's defense is really lacking. He seems to be hustling and seems to have a penchant for making things happen. I don't think that Thomas is clearly better at D, but concede he might be in better position more frequently...However I think JJJ's defensive athleticism and offensive fluidity more than makes up for it.
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JJJ will see more and more minutes as season moves on.
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JJJ will see more and more minutes as season moves on.
This. JJJ keeps looking better.
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I'm a little confused by some of Buzz's comments. He says that Jamil isn't "hardcore" all the time. To me this is indicating a lack of intensity. But he also preaches that the 5 toughest start. Yet Jamil still starts while the other 4 in the list of most talented players come off the bench despite showing more intensity. Just seems odd.
But I agree with MU82. Starting means jack. It's all about playing time
Good comment.
If Jamil could consistently put together 2 halves of a game at the level he is capable of, this team is top15, top 10 caliber. He is that good.
Jamil is the most talented athlete on the floor in almost all of our games on this year's schedule. I hope that he demonstrates that.
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Good comment.
If Jamil could consistently put together 2 halves of a game at the level he is capable of, this team is top15, top 10 caliber. He is that good.
Jamil is the most talented athlete on the floor in almost all of our games on this year's schedule. I hope that he demonstrates that.
agree. that alley-oop dunk against ball state was nasty
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A great Jamil makes this team a very good one. He really is a gifted athlete and player. When he is on his game he is one of my all time favorite players to watch. He is a throw back player in many ways IMO.
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Good comment.
If Jamil could consistently put together 2 halves of a game at the level he is capable of, this team is top15, top 10 caliber. He is that good.
Jamil is the most talented athlete on the floor in almost all of our games on this year's schedule. I hope that he demonstrates that.
You'll notice Jamil plays a lot better when he is paired with other offensively capable players, instead of the current starters...which is why you rarely see 2 great halves from Jamil. I'd love to see Jamil run the point, and have Derrick's minutes reduced to 10-15 if it means more time for Jamil on the floor.
You are an opposing coach - MU trots out a lineup of Derrick, Jake, Juan, Otule and Jamil - who are you game planning to take away? And what threat/fear do the other MU players put in you??
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You'll notice Jamil plays a lot better when he is paired with other offensively capable players, instead of the current starters...which is why you rarely see 2 great halves from Jamil. I'd love to see Jamil run the point, and have Derrick's minutes reduced to 10-15 if it means more time for Jamil on the floor.
You are an opposing coach - MU trots out a lineup of Derrick, Jake, Juan, Otule and Jamil - who are you game planning to take away? And what threat/fear do the other MU players put in you??
Do you have any stats that show Jamil's performances with different line-ups, or is this just something you see?
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Do you have any stats that show Jamil's performances with different line-ups, or is this just something you see?
Well not sure what good stats would do for you, as you continue to champion Derrick when the stats clearly reflect he's a huge liability offensively for this team.
Watch the game, and watch Jamil's production when he's on the floor with our non-starting lineup. He's a much better passer from the point than Derrick too btw. Jamil can play better with Derrick at the point - so long as he's not in with the other starters - need other threats on the floor to help reduce the pressure on Jamil - that he faces when paired with other starters.
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JJJ will see more and more minutes as season moves on.
+1 - it's the natural progression. As Buzz said, last game was the 1st time he has seen JJJ play with confidence this year. That and working on defense will get him a lot of Jake's minutes.
Right now JJJ and Deonte are working very hard on the defensive end. They just don't understand the system totally yet and get out of position fairly easily. But they have gotten better and the minutes are increasing.
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You'll notice Jamil plays a lot better when he is paired with other offensively capable players, instead of the current starters...which is why you rarely see 2 great halves from Jamil.
I don't think that's true at all. In his two biggest games (Fullerton and UW) he has played a ton with the current starters.
For instance here is the +/- against Fullerton:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2013/11/28/marquette-86-cal-state-fullerton-66/plus_minus
He played with Thomas and Wilson for pretty much the entire first half when he had 20 points.
Here is the same v. UW:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2013/12/07/marquette-64-wisconsin-70/plus_minus
When Jamil score a bunch when MU made their run on the second half, it was done with pretty much all of the starters on the floor.
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I would actually be interested to see how many turnovers Jamil causes while running the point vs. the other positions he plays. Granted he only averages 1.5 TOs a game, but it seems to me that he's rock solid when bringing the ball up.
Maybe the paint touches guys can dive deeper into that.
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Well not sure what good stats would do for you, as you continue to champion Derrick when the stats clearly reflect he's a huge liability offensively for this team.
Actually, the stats to this point say he is better than Junior was last year.
But keep saying it and someday it might be true. If only you believe!!!
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You'll notice Jamil plays a lot better when he is paired with other offensively capable players, instead of the current starters...which is why you rarely see 2 great halves from Jamil. I'd love to see Jamil run the point, and have Derrick's minutes reduced to 10-15 if it means more time for Jamil on the floor.
I have said the same thing, but Jamil looked like he had a harder time initiating the offense against a couple of the quicker guards on Ball State who pressed him out past the 3 point line.
But I like the lineup with him at point and would like Derrick to stay around 20 minutes a game rather than 35 - I just don't know if it can be done too much when we get in conference play and opposing guards start forcing the action on 'D'. We may need Derrick for more minutes to protect the ball.
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Well not sure what good stats would do for you, as you continue to champion Derrick when the stats clearly reflect he's a huge liability offensively for this team.
Watch the game, and watch Jamil's production when he's on the floor with our non-starting lineup. He's a much better passer from the point than Derrick too btw. Jamil can play better with Derrick at the point - so long as he's not in with the other starters - need other threats on the floor to help reduce the pressure on Jamil - that he faces when paired with other starters.
I'm not trying to champion Derrick in this instance (or really any instance for that matter). I'm just trying to see if we are dealing with facts, the "eye test" or just some sort of hyperbole/cliche.
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Actually, the stats to this point say he is better than Junior was last year.
But keep saying it and someday it might be true. If only you believe!!!
Comparing Wilson's stats YTD right now to Cadougan's full year last year is not a vaild comparision, given the competition level of the Big East and the mix of cupcakes relative to the scheduled played.
Assuming that even the lowliest BE team provides more legit competition than a 200+ cupcake, Cadougan's stats last year were based on a mix of 7 cupcakes and 28 legit teams. Wilson's stats are based on a ratio of 6 cupcakes and 5 legit teams to date.
One would hope that he's out-statting Cadougan's full year numbers.
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Comparing Wilson's stats YTD right now to Cadougan's full year last year is not a vaild comparision, given the competition level of the Big East and the mix of cupcakes relative to the scheduled played.
Assuming that even the lowliest BE team provides more legit competition than a 200+ cupcake, Cadougan's stats last year were based on a mix of 7 cupcakes and 28 legit teams. Wilson's stats are based on a ratio of 6 cupcakes and 5 legit teams to date.
One would hope that he's out-statting Cadougan's full year numbers.
Which I have repeatedly acknowledged. But for the sake of consistency, here is a comparison of where they were 11 games in each of the respective seasons:
JC 12-13: 290 min, 35/82 = 42.6%, 98 pts, 53 asst, 29 TO, 1.1 A/T, 32 rebs.
DW 13-14: 325 min, 21/54 = 38.9%, 58 pts, 46 asst, 16 TO, 2.5 A/T, 44 rebs.
So Junior was better. He scored more, at a higher percentage and had more assists. Derrick has less turnovers, a better ratio, and more rebounds.
But that doesn't mean Derrick is bad.
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Which I have repeatedly acknowledged. But for the sake of consistency, here is a comparison of where they were 11 games in each of the respective seasons:
JC 12-13: 290 min, 35/82 = 42.6%, 98 pts, 53 asst, 29 TO, 1.1 A/T, 32 rebs.
DW 13-14: 325 min, 21/54 = 38.9%, 58 pts, 46 asst, 16 TO, 2.5 A/T, 44 rebs.
So Junior was better. He scored more, at a higher percentage and had more assists. Derrick has less turnovers, a better ratio, and more rebounds.
But that doesn't mean Derrick is bad.
what's the SOS of each? Is that even available?
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what's the SOS of each? Is that even available?
Average RPI of first 11 games of this year based on current RPI: 162
Average RPI of first 11 games of last year based on final 2013 RPI: 147
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Average RPI of first 11 games of this year based on current RPI: 162
Average RPI of first 11 games of last year based on final 2013 RPI: 147
Cool. Thanks for the research.
Their numbers are pretty close, but I would still like to see Derrick's minutes reduced. I think his usage has been too high which has led to a good deal of inefficiency. I think he could put up similar numbers in 25-28min. instead of 38 minutes.
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Which I have repeatedly acknowledged. But for the sake of consistency, here is a comparison of where they were 11 games in each of the respective seasons:
JC 12-13: 290 min, 35/82 = 42.6%, 98 pts, 53 asst, 29 TO, 1.1 A/T, 32 rebs.
DW 13-14: 325 min, 21/54 = 38.9%, 58 pts, 46 asst, 16 TO, 2.5 A/T, 44 rebs.
So Junior was better. He scored more, at a higher percentage and had more assists. Derrick has less turnovers, a better ratio, and more rebounds.
But that doesn't mean Derrick is bad.
Which is exact opposite of the post I responded to:
Actually, the stats to this point say he is better than Junior was last year.
But keep saying it and someday it might be true. If only you believe!!!
So actualy, when you look at the stats, they don't say he is better. You could argue that there isn't that much difference. You could argue that in some statisical areas Derrick is better, while in other Junior is better.
But I don't think you can't make the blanket statement "Actually, the stats at this point say Derrick is better than Junior was last year."
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I was comparing Derrick's season to date with Junior's full season because that is the only information I had. I then took the first 11 games since I had time to look into it more deeply.
And you know that.
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Cool. Thanks for the research.
Their numbers are pretty close, but I would still like to see Derrick's minutes reduced. I think his usage has been too high which has led to a good deal of inefficiency. I think he could put up similar numbers in 25-28min. instead of 38 minutes.
Agreed completely.
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I was comparing Derrick's season to date with Junior's full season because that is the only information I had. I then took the first 11 games since I had time to look into it more deeply.
And you know that.
Thanks for compiling the data Sultan. Pretty clear Junior was better given that he played 35 less minutes, and yet outscored Derrick 98 to 58 and out assisted him 53-36. Nonetheless, it isn't a HUGE disparity. But Junior was a much better threat, and better in the open court, no doubt about it.
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One other thing of note - Buzz said a few times last year by this point that Derrick really should be/deserved to be the starting point guard - but Junior is his guy, and he's gonna ride him.
Interestingly, if Buzz thought Junior wasn't worthy of being the starter last year, ultimately, yet clearly as the numbers show, he's exceeded Derrick by a fairly decent margin - you've got to think Buzz can't be too pleased at this point with the results - which is why we are starting to see less minutes for Derrick - I think. Creighton game will further define if that is what's going on, or if Buzz is just trying to get other guys PT and other looks against the cupcakes.
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One other thing of note - Buzz said a few times last year by this point that Derrick really should be/deserved to be the starting point guard - but Junior is his guy, and he's gonna ride him.
Interestingly, if Buzz thought Junior wasn't worthy of being the starter last year, ultimately, yet clearly as the numbers show, he's exceeded Derrick by a fairly decent margin - you've got to think Buzz can't be too pleased at this point with the results - which is why we are starting to see less minutes for Derrick - I think. Creighton game will further define if that is what's going on, or if Buzz is just trying to get other guys PT and other looks against the cupcakes.
Alright, you win.
I can't begin to understand the logic pretzel you have twisted yourself into.
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Thanks for compiling the data Sultan. Pretty clear Junior was better given that he played 35 less minutes, and yet outscored Derrick 98 to 58 and out assisted him 53-36. Nonetheless, it isn't a HUGE disparity. But Junior was a much better threat, and better in the open court, no doubt about it.
Actually the assist disparity is 53-46, not 53-36. Throw in Junior's much higher TO rate and the combined stat is a slight edge to Derrick. Add in scoring, though, and Junior is the better offensive player. As Derrick is by far a better defender and a better rebounder, I'd say overall it's about a push - and that's with Derrick being forced to play too many minutes.
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Alright, you win.
I can't begin to understand the logic pretzel you have twisted yourself into.
Cognitive dissonance is strong with him. ;)
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I joined a little late, but what I heard was as follows:
Deonte: is a stud and doesn't think he is as much of a stud as Buzz thinks he is a stud or the rest of his teammates think he is a stud, but is gaining more confidence.
Jamil Wilson: needs to be involved in every play. He had no defensive rebounds and only 1 offensive rebound in the first half and one in the second in the Ball State game. Buzz was clearly miffed about that. Said Jamil is more talented than Jimmy Butler, Jae and Lazar, but those guys were more hardcore all the time. He has to get to that point. Noted that we have "go get guys" who are to go get rebounds and "go guys" who are to clear out of the way, and right now Jamil (a go get guy) is averaging the same number of rebounds as De. Wilson (a go guy). He needs to be involved in every play.
Jake Thomas: thinks he has had a below average performance as a starter, but that he earns the right to start because he works hard every day and plays to the scouting report. No one has come close to taking his starting job away from him. Would like JJ to continue to grow, Todd to be consistently good so that they could play more, but Jake is doing what he needs to do. Starters are picked by who earns it in practice. Surprised that he hasn't made more shots and thinks that he will. He got Vander's scholarship.
Got pissed at Homer for asking an Allen Iverson like question about why he is not starting the most talented guys. Buzz admitted that the most talented guys on the team are Jamil, Davante, Todd, JJ and Deonte and of those, only 1 starts. The others have to step it up and ring the bell each and every day to earn the right to start. Really heated about that type of questioning and said what would our culture be if we didn't start the guys who earned it day in and day out.
Davante: most talented offensive player he has coached, but isn't doing the things to earn starting. Said he told Davante that he is never going to beat out Otule at the 5 to start, so he needs to try to start at the 4 and simply isn't able to show he deserves it (noting he can't make morning practice, afternoon weight lifting, film review and morning practice the following morning like he should).
Best Xmas gift: was a huge Earl Campbell fan and got a signed Houston Oilers helmet and a picture with Earl.
I don't know why I am just thinking about this now and am not sure how accurate my memory is, but there were a couple of other interesting statements made by Buzz during his weekly radio show. Buzz mentioned that before IUPUI he wrote down on a wipe board what each player needed to do in order for MU to win the game and then followed-up with each player on those items. Before the Ball State game he decided not to write on the wipe board and instead to have each player come up and tell him and the team what they needed to do for MU to win the game. Buzz then added to what they put down what he thought they needed to do. He said for the New Mexico game they were putting a video montage together showing what the players said they had to do to win the game, what Buzz and the coaches said they had to do, and what the players actually did in order to help continue to drill into everyone what they have to do in each game. I only pass it on as an FYI. My impression was that Buzz was using this example to show what kinds of things the coaching staff are doing to get the players to figure out their roles on the team and to show that they are trying a lot of different approaches until it sinks in. I also am sure its hard to figure out that roll when it seems like different players step up each game or every other game.
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Actually the assist disparity is 53-46, not 53-36. Throw in Junior's much higher TO rate and the combined stat is a slight edge to Derrick. Add in scoring, though, and Junior is the better offensive player. As Derrick is by far a better defender and a better rebounder, I'd say overall it's about a push - and that's with Derrick being forced to play too many minutes.
Yeah, that is why I gave Junior simply a slight edge. Derrick is also playing too many minutes because Junior had an adequate back up and Derrick doesn't.
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Yeah, that is why I gave Junior simply a slight edge. Derrick is also playing too many minutes because Junior had an adequate back up and Derrick doesn't.
Kind of funny because Dawson has been comparably "good/adequate" as Derrick has been - but sure, we can use the excuse due to Derrick playing too many minutes his production has suffered. Might carry some weight if his 2nd half performances were worse than his 1st half. Most players tend to play better playing long stretches of minutes - much easier to get into a rhythm and flow of the game, versus playing 3 minutes stints sporadically.
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Yeah, that is why I gave Junior simply a slight edge. Derrick is also playing too many minutes because Junior had an adequate back up and Derrick doesn't.
Assuming that Mayo, Du. Wilson, Dawson, Ja. Wilson, JJJ, etc. are not adequate.
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Assuming that Mayo, Du. Wilson, Dawson, Ja. Wilson, JJJ, etc. are not adequate.
Given the minutes Derrick is playing, it doesn't seem that Buzz thinks they are.
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Kind of funny because Dawson has been comparably "good/adequate" as Derrick has been
No...he hasn't been. Derrick averaged 13.1 mpg last year entirely as Junior's back up. Dawson is at about 9.8 right now, and that will likely drop once the rotation is tightened, and he oftentimes hasn't been playing the point.
but sure, we can use the excuse due to Derrick playing too many minutes his production has suffered.
I wasn't using it as an excuse.
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Yeah, that is why I gave Junior simply a slight edge. Derrick is also playing too many minutes because Junior had an adequate back up and Derrick doesn't.
Or Derrick is in better shape and is physically capable of playing longer stretches even if his production falls. It is possible that Buzz had to play Derrick some to spell Junior solely, because Junior couldn't play longer.
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Given the minutes Derrick is playing, it doesn't seem that Buzz thinks they are.
Nor do you from your post. And of course, whatever the slurpers "think" Buzz is "thinking" is always good.
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Nor do you from your post. And of course, whatever the slurpers "think" Buzz is "thinking" is always good.
I judge that Buzz has a better handle on who should be his back up point guard than either you or I do because of his proven track record as a successful head coach in a major conference. That doesn't make him infallible but I certainly am going to give him the benefit of the doubt.
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Assuming that Mayo, Du. Wilson, Dawson, Ja. Wilson, JJJ, etc. are not adequate.
Mayo=terrible handle
Duane=hurt
Dawson=hasn't shown that much
J Wilson=solid but needed at other positions
JJJ=handle might get there but looks out of control right now
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Mayo=terrible handle
Duane=hurt
Dawson=hasn't shown that much
J Wilson=solid but needed at other positions
JJJ=handle might get there but looks out of control right now
De. Wilson=cannot shoot; cannot shoot FT's; cannot score
Don't agree that Ja. Wilson is needed at other positions, but am not advocating him as a point either. The poster said there is no adequate backup, you just said Ja. Wilson was solid, so he could be according to your analysis. Besides where is he needed elsewhere for those minutes: You have Otule/OX at 5; you have Ox at the 4 along with Anderson and Burton who can slide over there; You have Anderson, JJJ, and Burton for the three--after all those guys are all switchable. So you could use Ja. Wilson/Dawson/JJJ and Mayo for 12 plus minutes at the Point. Saying there are no backups is incorrect.
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Kind of funny because Dawson has been comparably "good/adequate" as Derrick has been - but sure, we can use the excuse due to Derrick playing too many minutes his production has suffered. Might carry some weight if his 2nd half performances were worse than his 1st half. Most players tend to play better playing long stretches of minutes - much easier to get into a rhythm and flow of the game, versus playing 3 minutes stints sporadically.
That's quite a stretch considering that most of Dawson's minutes have come against cupcakes. I agree that we have issues at PG, but, as a freshman, Dawson isn't the answer.
I see many things I like about him - but he is not ready for more minutes in conference play....yet.
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De. Wilson=cannot shoot; cannot shoot FT's; cannot score
Don't agree that Ja. Wilson is needed at other positions, but am not advocating him as a point either. The poster said there is no adequate backup, you just said Ja. Wilson was solid, so he could be according to your analysis. Besides where is he needed elsewhere for those minutes: You have Otule/OX at 5; you have Ox at the 4 along with Anderson and Burton who can slide over there; You have Anderson, JJJ, and Burton for the three--after all those guys are all switchable. So you could use Ja. Wilson/Dawson/JJJ and Mayo for 12 plus minutes at the Point. Saying there are no backups is incorrect.
I would say that only Jamil is an adequate backup at this point. But he is much better at the 3/4 than he is at the 1. So I would rather have Derrick and Jamil out at the same time.
Dawson I would call a serviceable backup.
The others I don't think should ever play the point (unless they really start to practice and train in at the position)
But yes you are right, there are others who can play the position