MUScoop

Start Outle, ox, jamil, todd, Dawson.

And we win fucking games.

Steve, Juan, jujuan, Deonte are great back ups. Derrick can back up Dawson. Jake can just be pleased he isn't playing D2 basketball.

Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on November 22, 2013, 02:57:16 AM
Start Outle, ox, jamil, todd, Dawson.

And we win unnatural carnal knowledgeing games.

Steve, Juan, jujuan, Deonte are great back ups. Derrick can back up Dawson. Jake can just be pleased he isn't playing D2 basketball.

What exactly has Dawson done to earn a starting spot? The kid has a bright future, but his game needs some work to be successful at this level.

I can understand why people are not happy with Derrick, but I cannot understand why people think Dawson is the answer. Last night when Jamil Wilson played point in the first half he became very involved in the game. Maybe the only way to get Jamil excited about playing is to make him the point guard.

I'd say Jamil is our best PG right now. The problem is that Juan, Steve, Davante & Deonte are a little weak still at the 4 so Jamil's lacking a backup there.

The problem is that their is a force field around the rim and it is clearly in the teams head right now

Quote from: KenoshaWarrior on November 22, 2013, 08:46:29 AM
The problem is that their is a force field around the rim and it is clearly in the teams head right now

Maybe our long road/neutral stretch coming up will help out with that.

Quote from: bilsu on November 22, 2013, 08:39:42 AM
but I cannot understand why people think Dawson is the answer.guard.

We don't know that Dawson is not the answer; we KNOW that De Wilson is not the answer.

Quote from: windyplayer on November 22, 2013, 08:50:54 AM
We don't know that Dawson is not the answer; we KNOW that De Wilson is not the answer.

We may not know, but Buzz sees him practice every day. Don't you think if Buzz thought Dawson was the answer he would be using him more? Or do you think Buzz gets a thrill out of seeing MU play like crap. If Buzz thought Dawson was the answer he wouldn't be using JWilson at the point as much either

Quote from: windyplayer on November 22, 2013, 08:50:54 AM
We don't know that Dawson is not the answer; we KNOW that De Wilson is not the answer.

If there was a decent chance that Dawson was the answer right now, Jamil wouldn't be getting minutes at the point.

Quote from: bilsu on November 22, 2013, 08:39:42 AM
I can understand why people are not happy with Derrick, but I cannot understand why people think Dawson is the answer. Last night when Jamil Wilson played point in the first half he became very involved in the game. Maybe the only way to get Jamil excited about playing is to make him the point guard.

Jamil was better than Dawson, but I don't think he's better than Derrick. That said, if playing PG motivates him, we have better alternative options at his position than anyone else at the point.

the main reason Jamil played point so much was UNH were solely in zone all game, don't really need a true PG to advance the ball against that D.

as soon as we try to pull that against a real team they will press/trap and force turnovers. you end up with the same problem when playing Otule and Gardner at the same time.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 22, 2013, 09:06:35 AM
If there was a decent chance that Dawson was the answer right now, Jamil wouldn't be getting minutes at the point.

What I think is ironic is that posters were saying Derrick cannot shoot, so we need to play Dawson. Derrick last night was 0-1 and Dawson was 0-3 and they are still begging for Dawson. Did anyone else notice the shot Derrick missed last night? He missed on a rebound put back, which is no big deal. However, he was way above the rim when he grabbed the rebound and tried to stuff it. He cannot dunk either, but he does have very good hops.

Quote from: JTBMU7 on November 22, 2013, 09:11:57 AM
the main reason Jamil played point so much was UNH were solely in zone all game, don't really need a true PG to advance the ball against that D.

as soon as we try to pull that against a real team they will press/trap and force turnovers. you end up with the same problem when playing Otule and Gardner at the same time.

This would be true except for the fact that our two best players at breaking a press/trap so far this year are Jamil and Mayo...D. Wilson wasn't even involved.

I like the line up with Jamil at point...put Thomas or Juan at the 3.  Add in Mayo and that is a nice lineup.

Dawson's only playing spot duty come in at 5:01 out by 3:56 come in at 17:30 out my 15:13... what kind of rhythm can you get into... if every ball stoppage your back out of the game...

What has Gardner done to earn increased minutes?

Brick free throws? Sulk? Play half-heartedly?

You reward guys who work hard and achieve.

Derrick and Jake are what they are: role players. That's not a bad thing. That's what they were brought here to be. However, they're being asked to play significantly bigger roles this season and the results haven't been very pretty. That said, having thought about it more, that's not the biggest issue for the team.

Three players have not stepped up so far: Jamil, Gardner, Anderson.

I wondered on a different thread if Jamil is a guy who just is what he is - a guy who looks like a ballplayer and is 10-5 guys who's a very nice third option (I compared him to Olouma Nnamaka).

Gardner was getting preseason All-American buzz but has looked very out of sorts the last 3 games. MU needs more from him if they're going to have a successful season. He'll get there.

Juan was a top 100 recruit (as high as #60, IIRC). So far, he's been a hustle player. Again, not a bad thing when that's what you're being asked to do, but I'm assuming that Buzz was expecting more from him as an upperclassman. He's long and athletic and, like Jamil, "looks the part," but the results just haven't been there for him, particularly offensively. There are minutes to be had for guys who can put the ball in the basket. It'd be nice to see Juan step up in that capacity.

One guy who has stepped up is Todd Mayo. He's been MU's most consistent player so far this season, especially offensively. His shooting percentages will go up as the season goes on, but if he averages 14-4-2, I'll be extremely pleased. He was obviously out of control at times against OSU, but he was really the only one playing with any sense of urgency in that game. For better or worse, he's not afraid to be aggressive and make a mistake.

I'm intrigued by the Point Forward. Ball movement appeared 100% better.

Quote from: Nevada233 on November 22, 2013, 09:23:41 AM
Dawson's only playing spot duty come in at 5:01 out by 3:56 come in at 17:30 out my 15:13... what kind of rhythm can you get into... if every ball stoppage your back out of the game...

Ummm thank you....not a chance to get into any kind of flow in that limited time.  I still liked what I saw from John...even though his 2nd time in he was playing off the ball with Jamil being at the 1.  Didn't get to see John run the point much.  As for his missed 3's - one was totally rushed at end of the shot clock, 1 was right on target, the other was a miss.  His form looks much better than Derrick's does - and I just like what way Dawson accelerates the pace of the game - as looking to push/advance the ball up court quickly off of defensive rebounds.

Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on November 22, 2013, 02:57:16 AMStart Outle, ox, jamil, todd, Dawson.

How is it the guy has been here 6 years and people still can't spell his name? And it's not the occasional typo, it's constant. There's no apostrophe, it's not pronounced "Out-el", I mean seriously.

I get people make accidents, but it's not like his name is Nnamaka, Ilgauskas, Olowokandia, or something difficult. It's five freaking letters.[/pointlessrant]

Quote from: Ners on November 22, 2013, 09:34:16 AM
Ummm thank you....not a chance to get into any kind of flow in that limited time.  I still liked what I saw from John...even though his 2nd time in he was playing off the ball with Jamil being at the 1.  Didn't get to see John run the point much.  As for his missed 3's - one was totally rushed at end of the shot clock, 1 was right on target, the other was a miss.  His form looks much better than Derrick's does - and I just like what way Dawson accelerates the pace of the game - as looking to push/advance the ball up court quickly off of defensive rebounds.

Think there might be a reason for that?

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 22, 2013, 09:41:01 AMThink there might be a reason for that?

The calls for Dawson are becoming comical. Last game, someone talks about how as soon as Derrick came out, the offense seemed out of synch, yet the answer is to go with a different player at the point. This time, Dawson is put in to play off the ball with a natural power forward at the 1 and somehow this isn't an indicator that maybe the frosh isn't ready for that role yet.

Derrick's not a perfect player. I never said he was. But all these people who act like he brings nothing to the table really paint themselves like fools with statements like that one.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 22, 2013, 09:38:12 AM
How is it the guy has been here 6 years and people still can't spell his name? And it's not the occasional typo, it's constant. There's no apostrophe, it's not pronounced "Out-el", I mean seriously.

I get people make accidents, but it's not like his name is Nnamaka, Ilgauskas, Olowokandia, or something difficult. It's five freaking letters.[/pointlessrant]

Get ready for Nick Noskowiak.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 22, 2013, 09:38:12 AM
How is it the guy has been here 6 years and people still can't spell his name? And it's not the occasional typo, it's constant. There's no apostrophe, it's not pronounced "Out-el", I mean seriously.

I get people make accidents, but it's not like his name is Nnamaka, Ilgauskas, Olowokandia, or something difficult. It's five freaking letters.[/pointlessrant]

Holy crap. Are you going to survive?

I was on a phone and it auto corrected.

You gona be ok with that or have an aneurism?

Spelling nazi on a message board hahahahahha

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 22, 2013, 09:06:35 AM
If there was a decent chance that Dawson was the answer right now, Jamil wouldn't be getting minutes at the point.

I think Buzz has a habit, for better or worse, of rewarding players too much for whatever reason (seniority, playing hard in practice, etc.). Sometimes it backfires. In this case, I think we have a case of seniority and Buzz not wanting to back down from his pre-season plan of having De Wilson be "the guy" at point.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 22, 2013, 08:22:53 AM
What exactly has Dawson done to earn a starting spot? The kid has a bright future, but his game needs some work to be successful at this level.

What exactly has Derrick done?

Literally nothing.

Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on November 22, 2013, 10:43:46 AM
What exactly has Derrick done?

Literally nothing.

If it helps, I'm starting to get bored answering this incredibly repetitive and moronic question. Especially when so many of you broad-brushed this kid before the first game of the season and will place all the blame on Derrick when Todd, Jamil, and Davante can't hit a shot.

Honestly, this site is starting to make me ashamed of Marquette fans. The vitriol so many of you are spewing toward this kid is disturbing. I hope he doesn't spend much time on this board. I'll tell you what Derrick has done. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DESERVE THE GOD-AWFUL TREATMENT HE IS GETTING.

For that matter, nor has Jake. Some guy in the student section was heckling him on and off all night last night. At least I can chalk that up to him being a stupid kid. Most of you on here don't have the same excuse.

They aren't perfect players. That doesn't mean they don't have positive attributes and haven't earned the positions and playing time they are getting. And it also doesn't mean they aren't the best options Buzz has on this team. The sooner you all accept that the easier and more enjoyable this team will be to watch. Look at them for what they are, not what you wish they could be.

You just wrote a 3 paragraph essay and the question still stands

What has Derrick done?

It's actually really open ended. Just list the 1,000 negative things and technically you answer my question.

When Jamil quits missing dunks and open lay ups, when Gardner gets his head right and plays hard every possession and makes his free throws, when Juan hits his first  trail 3, when STjr sees a ball go through the hoop, when Jake hits his first two 3's of a game,  all of this goes away.   Right now, the shooting problem is firmly between their ears.   DeWilson isn't the problem.   He isn't the solution either, but neither is Dawson at this point. 

Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on November 22, 2013, 11:15:54 AM
You just wrote a 3 paragraph essay and the question still stands

What has Derrick done?

It's actually really open ended. Just list the 1,000 negative things and technically you answer my question.

If you could read, you'd see it has been discussed ad nauseum. People keep asking the same question, it keeps getting answered, and then they ask again. It's like the kid in the back seat asking "Are we there yet?"

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 22, 2013, 10:53:41 AM
If it helps, I'm starting to get bored answering this incredibly repetitive and moronic question. Especially when so many of you broad-brushed this kid before the first game of the season and will place all the blame on Derrick when Todd, Jamil, and Davante can't hit a shot.

Honestly, this site is starting to make me ashamed of Marquette fans. The vitriol so many of you are spewing toward this kid is disturbing. I hope he doesn't spend much time on this board. I'll tell you what Derrick has done. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DESERVE THE GOD-AWFUL TREATMENT HE IS GETTING.

For that matter, nor has Jake. Some guy in the student section was heckling him on and off all night last night. At least I can chalk that up to him being a stupid kid. Most of you on here don't have the same excuse.

They aren't perfect players. That doesn't mean they don't have positive attributes and haven't earned the positions and playing time they are getting. And it also doesn't mean they aren't the best options Buzz has on this team. The sooner you all accept that the easier and more enjoyable this team will be to watch. Look at them for what they are, not what you wish they could be.

Vitriol and awful treatment? We've all been deeply disappointed in him, but we're not tearing the kid down as a person. He's just terrible. It is what it is. He plays high level D-I baskebtall, if he can't handle the critique go DIII. He doesn't need you to defend him, he's a big boy and I'm sure he's doing everything he can to get better--and I hope he does. But the criticism on this board is warranted.

Derrick Wilson is taking a bigger share of the blame than he deserves, for sure, but that doesn't mean he isn't a problem.  The real question becomes, if not Derrick, then who?  He will get a lot of minutes against ASU (more than he did against UNH) because they have a big-time scorer in the backcourt. 

Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on November 22, 2013, 11:15:54 AM
You just wrote a 3 paragraph essay and the question still stands

What has Derrick done?

It's actually really open ended. Just list the 1,000 negative things and technically you answer my question.

Your question is stupid because you literally don't know how to use the word literally.

And yes, Derrick has played poorly. But, realistically, he's an average player playing poorly. J. Wilson and Gardner are good players who are playing poorly. If we getting the pitchforks and torches out (figuratively), start with those guys.

Quote from: Ners on November 22, 2013, 09:34:16 AM
Ummm thank you....not a chance to get into any kind of flow in that limited time.  I still liked what I saw from John...even though his 2nd time in he was playing off the ball with Jamil being at the 1.  Didn't get to see John run the point much.  As for his missed 3's - one was totally rushed at end of the shot clock, 1 was right on target, the other was a miss.  His form looks much better than Derrick's does - and I just like what way Dawson accelerates the pace of the game - as looking to push/advance the ball up court quickly off of defensive rebounds.

Here we go again...

This year's version of "If only Buzz knew what I know about <insert player here>.  We would be so much better."

There is a reason Dawson had limited time.  It wasn't because of loyalty.  It was because the head basketball coach, who sees these players a lot more than we do, doesn't think he deserves more time.

Clearly he was searching for another option at point.  But we need to stop thinking that a few positive minutes against SWAC teams means Dawson is ready for extended runs against future teams.

Quote from: windyplayer on November 22, 2013, 11:18:26 AMHe doesn't need you to defend him,

No, but apparently you think he does need you to say he's terrible. And you can't figure out what vitriol I'm talking about? Really?

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 22, 2013, 11:25:04 AM
There is a reason Dawson had limited time.  It wasn't because of loyalty.  It was because the head basketball coach, who sees these players a lot more than we do, doesn't think he deserves more time.

I think a lot of us have a hard time believing that Dawson doesn't deserve more time given Wilson's total lack of production and inability to run the offesne. Dawson would just have to be GOD AWFUL in practice to keep him off the court. I honestly think this is Buzz riding out a plan for as long as he can before realizing that he has to blow it up and start over. He started the process last night.

Quote from: windyplayer on November 22, 2013, 11:29:50 AM
I think a lot of us have a hard time believing that Dawson doesn't deserve more time given Wilson's total lack of production and inability to run the offesne. Dawson would just have to be GOD AWFUL in practice to keep him off the court. I honestly think this is Buzz riding out a plan for as long as he can before realizing that he has to blow it up and start over. He started the process last night.

My guess.  Derrick and Dawson are marginally equal offensively.  Derrick is light years ahead defensively.  (And that last point isn't really a guess.)

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 22, 2013, 11:29:41 AM
but apparently you think he does need you to say he's terrible.

I don't think MU players need us to say anything nor should they. It's for the MUScoop community.

I don't expect Wilson to take anything I say to heart. I hope he stays in a positive mindset and makes the best of a difficult situation, but on the sidelines, I'll express my opinion.  

Why isn't anyone rippin' on JJJ's shootin' form?

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 22, 2013, 11:31:53 AM
Derrick is light years ahead defensively. 

Definitely.

Quote from: windyplayer on November 22, 2013, 11:29:50 AM
I think a lot of us have a hard time believing that Dawson doesn't deserve more time given Wilson's total lack of production and inability to run the offesne. Dawson would just have to be GOD AWFUL in practice to keep him off the court. I honestly think this is Buzz riding out a plan for as long as he can before realizing that he has to blow it up and start over. He started the process last night.

Then Buzz Williams should be fired.

If the guy who is in practice everyday with these kids can't figure out that John Dawson is a significant upgrade over Derrick Wilson, he should be fired immediately. Let Jerry take the reigns. If he plays Wilson, fire him too.

The problem is, we are internet dorks, and see these kids for 1% of the time that Buzz does. If Buzz isn't playing JD, then kid isn't ready (yet). Kids who are ready/good, will force their way into a line-up. Steve Taylor did it. Vander did it. Gardner did it. etc. etc.

There are things far more difficult than rocket science.

Brew is right that the vitriol should not be aimed at Derrick.  He is not a high D1 cailber PG being asked to play one.   The question should be to Buzz as to why there is not a better option at PG.   Was he counting on Vander to be the PG this year?   Was he counting on Duane Wilson?   Did he expect Derrick to improve more?

Dawson has upside - maybe that is why people are calling for Dawson over Derrick.   Derrick does not appear to have much upside.   Build around the future and upside versus struggle with the known.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 22, 2013, 10:53:41 AM
If it helps, I'm starting to get bored answering this incredibly repetitive and moronic question. Especially when so many of you broad-brushed this kid before the first game of the season and will place all the blame on Derrick when Todd, Jamil, and Davante can't hit a shot.

Honestly, this site is starting to make me ashamed of Marquette fans. The vitriol so many of you are spewing toward this kid is disturbing. I hope he doesn't spend much time on this board. I'll tell you what Derrick has done. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DESERVE THE GOD-AWFUL TREATMENT HE IS GETTING.

For that matter, nor has Jake. Some guy in the student section was heckling him on and off all night last night. At least I can chalk that up to him being a stupid kid. Most of you on here don't have the same excuse.

They aren't perfect players. That doesn't mean they don't have positive attributes and haven't earned the positions and playing time they are getting. And it also doesn't mean they aren't the best options Buzz has on this team. The sooner you all accept that the easier and more enjoyable this team will be to watch. Look at them for what they are, not what you wish they could be.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 22, 2013, 11:34:23 AM
Then Buzz Williams should be fired.

If the guy who is in practice everyday with these kids can't figure out that John Dawson is a significant upgrade over Derrick Wilson, he should be fired immediately. Let Jerry take the reigns. If he plays Wilson, fire him too.

The problem is, we are internet dorks, and see these kids for 1% of the time that Buzz does. If Buzz isn't playing JD, then kid isn't ready (yet). Kids who are ready/good, will force their way into a line-up. Steve Taylor did it. Vander did it. Gardner did it. etc. etc.

And the problem is the collective Scoop always has excuses for why Buzz doesn't do what they think he should do.

Vander only played because he had an ego and would transfer...he only plays Derrick out of loyalty...

Quote from: windyplayer on November 22, 2013, 11:32:37 AMIt's for the MUScoop community.

And that's a big part of the problem. This community thinks it exists in a vacuum. It doesn't.

Quote from: windyplayer on November 22, 2013, 10:40:01 AM
I think Buzz has a habit, for better or worse, of rewarding players too much for whatever reason (seniority, playing hard in practice, etc.). Sometimes it backfires. In this case, I think we have a case of seniority and Buzz not wanting to back down from his pre-season plan of having De Wilson be "the guy" at point.

Care to site an example of this?

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 22, 2013, 11:40:27 AM
Care to site an example of this?

No, Buzz would never come out and say it. But based on his interviews and anecdotes, he puts a lot of emphasis on the way guys practice as far as intensity and we know for a fact that he doesn't like playing freshmen as often as other coaches might. So yes, there is an inference here, but it's by no means, far fetched.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 22, 2013, 11:36:49 AM
And that's a big part of the problem. This community thinks it exists in a vacuum. It doesn't.

OK. This isn't the New York Times.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 22, 2013, 11:34:23 AM
Then Buzz Williams should be fired.

If the guy who is in practice everyday with these kids can't figure out that John Dawson is a significant upgrade over Derrick Wilson, he should be fired immediately. Let Jerry take the reigns. If he plays Wilson, fire him too.

The problem is, we are internet dorks, and see these kids for 1% of the time that Buzz does. If Buzz isn't playing JD, then kid isn't ready (yet). Kids who are ready/good, will force their way into a line-up. Steve Taylor did it. Vander did it. Gardner did it. etc. etc.

Excellent post.

We have asked, "What has Derrick done?" or "What has Dawson done?" or even "What has Gardner done?"

The best question is: "What has Buzz done to earn our trust?"

Isn't the answer: "A whole hell of a lot!"?

Can't we trust that Buzz actually knows what he's doing? It's not asking for blind trust, as it might have been in his first year on the job. The man has a pretty darn good track record at Marquette of winning games, recognizing talent, developing players, etc., doesn't he?

Six years in, with an Elite Eight, two Sweet 16s and several NBA players on his resume, there are still some here who don't trust that he's an OK coach?

And while I'm on this, let's go back to Derrick ...

I DO trust Buzz. And he benched his starting PG -- and supposedly one of his favorite players ever at MU -- to use a power forward at PG in the final minutes of a close game.

No matter what any of us here says to criticize Derrick Wilson, it will be less of an indictment than that.

I like to think even Derrick's staunchest defenders can see that.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 22, 2013, 11:34:23 AM
Then Buzz Williams should be fired.

If the guy who is in practice everyday with these kids can't figure out that John Dawson is a significant upgrade over Derrick Wilson, he should be fired immediately. Let Jerry take the reigns. If he plays Wilson, fire him too.

The problem is, we are internet dorks, and see these kids for 1% of the time that Buzz does. If Buzz isn't playing JD, then kid isn't ready (yet). Kids who are ready/good, will force their way into a line-up. Steve Taylor did it. Vander did it. Gardner did it. etc. etc.

Lol you comment on the use of literally?

Alright so we see these kids 1%. Of the time Buzz does?

Well two games a week is 4 hours. So 1% would be 400 hours. Sadly I don't think buzz " sees these kids" 17 days in a 7 day week

You are LITERALLY an idiot tehehehe

Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on November 22, 2013, 11:48:05 AMLol you comment on the use of literally?

Alright so we see these kids 1%. Of the time Buzz does?

Well two games a week is 4 hours. So 1% would be 400 hours. Sadly I don't think buzz " sees these kids" 17 days in a 7 day week

You are LITERALLY an idiot tehehehe

The difference is, Guns never used the term "literally" in his post, whereas you did. When you don't use the word literally, you are entitled to some hyperbole. You, on the other hand, are only painting yourself deeper and deeper into the idiot corner.

Quote from: MU82 on November 22, 2013, 11:45:53 AM
Excellent post.

We have asked, "What has Derrick done?" or "What has Dawson done?" or even "What has Gardner done?"

The best question is: "What has Buzz done to earn our trust?"

Isn't the answer: "A whole hell of a lot!"?

Can't we trust that Buzz actually knows what he's doing? It's not asking for blind trust, as it might have been in his first year on the job. The man has a pretty darn good track record at Marquette of winning games, recognizing talent, developing players, etc., doesn't he?

Six years in, with an Elite Eight, two Sweet 16s and several NBA players on his resume, there are still some here who don't trust that he's an OK coach?

And while I'm on this, let's go back to Derrick ...

I DO trust Buzz. And he benched his starting PG -- and supposedly one of his favorite players ever at MU -- to use a power forward at PG in the final minutes of a close game.

No matter what any of us here says to criticize Derrick Wilson, it will be less of an indictment than that.

I like to think even Derrick's staunchest defenders can see that.

Fair. Buzz has earned my trust. But any head coach can always improve in different facets of the game.

Quote from: MU82 on November 22, 2013, 11:45:53 AM


I DO trust Buzz. And he benched his starting PG -- and supposedly one of his favorite players ever at MU -- to use a power forward at PG in the final minutes of a close game.

No matter what any of us here says to criticize Derrick Wilson, it will be less of an indictment than that.

I like to think even Derrick's staunchest defenders can see that.

It's actually more of an indictment of John Dawson.

We know Derrick can't play 40 per game. Buzz has to find somebody who can produce when Derrick isn't in.

Derrick will continue to start. He will continue to get the majority of PG minutes.

The difference is...guns said buzz sees the teams 17 days in a 7 days week


Sorry I know math.


Goddamn where you two raised by gorillas?

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 22, 2013, 11:55:06 AM
It's actually more of an indictment of John Dawson.

We know Derrick can't play 40 per game. Buzz has to find somebody who can produce when Derrick isn't in.

Derrick will continue to start. He will continue to get the majority of PG minutes.

There's just a fundamental difference of opinion on the board regarding Derrick Wilson and how he is being handled by Buzz. We'll never get to the bottom of it and all we can do is support the team and hope for the best at the end of the day (catharsis complete).

Quote from: windyplayer on November 22, 2013, 11:44:44 AM
No, Buzz would never come out and say it. But based on his interviews and anecdotes, he puts a lot of emphasis on the way guys practice as far as intensity and we know for a fact that he doesn't like playing freshmen as often as other coaches might. So yes, there is an inference here, but it's by no means, far fetched.

As Freshmen:
Maymon: 16mpg
Blue: 19mpg
Mayo: 21mpg

Under Buzz, what frosh did MU have on the bench who should have seen the floor more? Erik Williams? Reggie Smith? Juan? Otule? Yous Mbao?

Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on November 22, 2013, 11:48:05 AM



Lol you comment on the use of literally?

Alright so we see these kids 1%. Of the time Buzz does?

Well two games a week is 4 hours. So 1% would be 400 hours. Sadly I don't think buzz " sees these kids" 17 days in a 7 day week

You are LITERALLY an idiot tehehehe

Buzz sees these kids as HS players, he sees them in the off season (in a limited capacity), he watches film, he's at practice, he sees them in meetings, study hall, etc.

So, I LITERALLY don't know how much time he spends with them, but it's safe to say that our view (internet nerds), is limited in capacity, and Buzz has a much better idea of what the guys are capable of.

Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on November 22, 2013, 11:57:08 AM
The difference is...guns said buzz sees the teams 17 days in a 7 days week


Sorry I know math.


Goddamn where you two raised by gorillas?

You may know math, but you don't seem to know linguistics. Guns did not use the word literally, and you don't seem to understand the meaning of the word hyperbole.

Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on November 22, 2013, 11:57:08 AM
The difference is...guns said buzz sees the teams 17 days in a 7 days week


Sorry I know math.


Goddamn where you two raised by gorillas?

Literally raised by gorillas, or figuratively raised by gorillas?

Ok, so still not 1%

Now, can we get back to the question at hand?

What has Derrick done? More specifically, what has he done positively?

How about we all remember that ALL of these guys are just young men (some are VERY young...) who are busting it every day, doing something that 99.99% of the people on this board could never do?  And that every single one of them is acutely aware of how they perform every game (if they weren't, I doubt they would have made it to this level).    

They deserve our support.  All of them.  Good game or bad.  

Just my opinion.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 22, 2013, 12:00:25 PM
You may know math, but you don't seem to know linguistics. Guns did not use the word literally, and you don't seem to understand the meaning of the word hyperbole.

And you don't seem to know basketball

Which is what this message board is.

Game. Set. Match.

And "literally nothing" does work crap heads

Literally- "actually, without exaggeration or inaccuracy"

I was definitely not exaggerating when I said he does nothing. And based off the fact you refuse to answer what Derrick does...it also was not inaccurate.

Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on November 22, 2013, 12:02:14 PM
Ok, so still not 1%

Now, can we get back to the question at hand?

What has Derrick done? More specifically, what has he done positively?

He's an outstanding defender and very good ball handler.

I never expected more than that. (literally). I don't know why anybody would.

A team CAN live with a PG like that if the other players are playing well and can shoot and score. If they aren't, then it's going to look ugly. It's looked ugly.

MU would be better off with Travis Diener on this team.

Unfortunately, Travis is literally out of eligibility, so MU is stuck with a Frosh. who is hurt, a Frosh. who isn't ready (based on the coach's viewpoint), and a pass-first, no-shot, great-defense PG.

My thought? Get the other guys on the roster to be better at offense. If that happens, then the pass-first, no-shot PG won't look so bad.

I'm not sure handing the reigns to a frosh. PG is a good idea. I trust that Buzz has a good handle on that. (figurative handle, not literal handle).

Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on November 22, 2013, 12:02:14 PM
Ok, so still not 1%

Now, can we get back to the question at hand?

What has Derrick done? More specifically, what has he done positively?

He leads the team in assists and assist/TO ratio. He's second in rebounds. He takes care of the basketball, runs the offense, and he's the team's best perimeter defender.

How's that?

wow, the hostility is rampant today

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 22, 2013, 11:59:46 AM
As Freshmen:
Maymon: 16mpg
Blue: 19mpg
Mayo: 21mpg

Under Buzz, what frosh did MU have on the bench who should have seen the floor more? Erik Williams? Reggie Smith? Juan? Otule? Yous Mbao?

I'd have to go back and look at all the worthy freshmen, but I just don't have the time to do that, so perhaps, I shouldn't have made the assertion. But there seems to be a consensus around here that Buzz is reluctant to play freshmen.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 22, 2013, 11:25:04 AM

Here we go again...

This year's version of "If only Buzz knew what I know about <insert player here>.  We would be so much better."

There is a reason Dawson had limited time.  It wasn't because of loyalty.  It was because the head basketball coach, who sees these players a lot more than we do, doesn't think he deserves more time.

Clearly he was searching for another option at point.  But we need to stop thinking that a few positive minutes against SWAC teams means Dawson is ready for extended runs against future teams.

Fair enough....but for the continued ridiculous posts of Brew trying to say Derrick Wilson has been good...and to not even list PG as 1 of our 6 most pressing problems - as Brew offered last week....is absolutely ridiculous.  I think Derrick is a solid backup point guard at the D1 level...that's it - a guy who will give you good D, and not turn the ball over...and spell a player for a breather...but he creates absolutely ZERO.

And obviously everything I've written on Dawson is based on potential - he potentially may be no better - but we have to see if he can bring more juice to the PG position sooner than later...and the sooner we figure that out, the better for the season's prospects.  Maybe Jamil is the best option.  But why not let Dawson run for 25-30 minutes against some of these weaker teams and see how he does...then give him spot duty against the ASU's, Wisky's, UNM...?

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 22, 2013, 10:53:41 AM
If it helps, I'm starting to get bored answering this incredibly repetitive and moronic question. Especially when so many of you broad-brushed this kid before the first game of the season and will place all the blame on Derrick when Todd, Jamil, and Davante can't hit a shot.

Honestly, this site is starting to make me ashamed of Marquette fans. The vitriol so many of you are spewing toward this kid is disturbing. I hope he doesn't spend much time on this board. I'll tell you what Derrick has done. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DESERVE THE GOD-AWFUL TREATMENT HE IS GETTING.

I usually agree with you, but I think you're off the mark here.  Derrick has done NOTHING. Literally NOTHING. I am usually quite the optimist, but man, he worries the hell of out me.  I have sort of avoided this discussion, because I think drawing conclusions from the first few games is dumb.  I am still willing to give him some rope, but he is going to KILL MU's season if he cannot hit open shots, learn how to drive and dish to the big fellas, and learn how to get the ball into the big fellas.  He just stands beyond the arc, gives the defender not a worry in the world about him shooting, and makes passes beyond the arc that an 8th grade PG could make without turning it over.I get that this team does not need Derrick to be one of the best PG in the country in order to be a good team, but they're going to need a lot more than he has been delivering.

Quote from: Ners on November 22, 2013, 12:18:44 PM
But why not let Dawson run for 25-30 minutes against some of these weaker teams and see how he does...then give him spot duty against the ASU's, Wisky's, UNM...?

Maybe Dawson's just not that good (yet).

I don't say that to be a dick, but it's the most likely answer, right?

It's the same reason why JJJ isn't taking all of Jake's minutes... or why Burton is only getting spot-minutes.

They just aren't ready. It takes time. Maybe a year or 2.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 22, 2013, 12:09:13 PM
He's an outstanding defender and very good ball handler.

I never expected more than that. (literally). I don't know why anybody would.

A team CAN live with a PG like that if the other players are playing well and can shoot and score. If they aren't, then it's going to look ugly. It's looked ugly.

MU would be better off with Travis Diener on this team.

Unfortunately, Travis is literally out of eligibility, so MU is stuck with a Frosh. who is hurt, a Frosh. who isn't ready (based on the coach's viewpoint), and a pass-first, no-shot, great-defense PG.

My thought? Get the other guys on the roster to be better at offense. If that happens, then the pass-first, no-shot PG won't look so bad.

I'm not sure handing the reigns to a frosh. PG is a good idea. I trust that Buzz has a good handle on that. (figurative handle, not literal handle).

Ok valid response.

But those attributes make him acceptable in a back up role. 34 minutes? We are screwed. The guy shoots free throws like he's Deandre Jordan...he's a point guard!!!!

We don't know enough about Dawson but we know Derrick isn't a starter. Why not let Dawson develop? Derrick is a junior we know what he is. Worst case scenario Dawson plays just as bad, at least he gets experience and the chance to develop into something.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 22, 2013, 12:22:40 PM
Maybe Dawson's just not that good (yet).

I don't say that to be a dick, but it's the most likely answer, right?

It's the same reason why JJJ isn't taking all of Jake's minutes... or why Burton is only getting spot-minutes.

They just aren't ready. It takes time. Maybe a year or 2.

I have to say. If JJJ not playing is really a product of him not being good enough to play over Jake Thomas...we are screwed for the indefinite future.

It's seniority and loyalty at this point. Todd shits on jake.

Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on November 22, 2013, 12:23:23 PM
Ok valid response.

But those attributes make him acceptable in a back up role. 34 minutes? We are screwed. The guy shoots free throws like he's Deandre Jordan...he's a point guard!!!!

We don't know enough about Dawson but we know Derrick isn't a starter. Why not let Dawson develop? Derrick is a junior we know what he is. Worst case scenario Dawson plays just as bad, at least he gets experience and the chance to develop into something.

Everything hinges on one question: Does Dawson's offensive game outweigh the impact of Wilson's defense. Nobody knows in large part because Dawson hasn't played enough. I think it's a queston worth pursuing an answer to--at least until the rest of the offense gets poppin'.

Quote from: windyplayer on November 22, 2013, 12:26:20 PM
Everything hinges on one question: Does Dawson's offensive game outweigh the impact of Wilson's defense. Nobody knows in large part because Dawson hasn't played enough. I think it's a queston worth pursuing an answer to--at least until the rest of the offense gets poppin'.

I'm pretty sure there is 1 guy who knows.

Hints: He makes a lot of money to know stuff like this. He likes expensive suits. He doesn't like combing his hair.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 22, 2013, 12:22:40 PM
Maybe Dawson's just not that good (yet).

I don't say that to be a dick, but it's the most likely answer, right?

It's the same reason why JJJ isn't taking all of Jake's minutes... or why Burton is only getting spot-minutes.

They just aren't ready. It takes time. Maybe a year or 2.

You and some others fail to comprehend the inner workings of a high major basketball program.  You give the vets every chance to win the majority of the minutes out of loyalty...you don't do that....and you run risk of destroying team chemistry which is critical.  Buzz has to be able to point to evidence he gave Derrick, Jake, Todd, Jamil - every chance to win majority of minutes - but that it hasn't worked out...so he needs to give young guns a chance.  It really isn't that hard to figure out.

O sheeeit!!!

Someone else used "literally nothing" in a sentence!!!

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 22, 2013, 12:29:01 PM
I'm pretty sure there is 1 guy who knows.

Hints: He makes a lot of money to know stuff like this. He likes expensive suits. He doesn't like combing his hair.

No, he doesn't. You don't know this by watching practices. You only know part of it--playing in games is just different. I can't quantify the difference but see EVERY diamond in the rough in sports history for references.

Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on November 22, 2013, 12:23:23 PM
Ok valid response.

But those attributes make him acceptable in a back up role. 34 minutes? We are screwed. The guy shoots free throws like he's Deandre Jordan...he's a point guard!!!!

We don't know enough about Dawson but we know Derrick isn't a starter. Why not let Dawson develop? Derrick is a junior we know what he is. Worst case scenario Dawson plays just as bad, at least he gets experience and the chance to develop into something.

Again, Buzz sees these kids everyday. He gets paid to know who can play. When they should play.

That's it.

Henry Sugar wanted more Steve Taylor last season. Henry Sugar was right, because he provided advanced metrics based upon Steve's performance. Steve forced his way into the line-up, and Buzz said as much. He earned his minutes.

Fans saying: "We need to see what Dawson can do for the future" is a bit silly for a team that was picked to win the conference.

Quote from: Ners on November 22, 2013, 12:30:34 PM
You and some others fail to comprehend the inner workings of a high major basketball program.  You give the vets every chance to win the majority of the minutes out of loyalty...you don't do that....and you run risk of destroying team chemistry which is critical.  Buzz has to be able to point to evidence he gave Derrick, Jake, Todd, Jamil - every chance to win majority of minutes - but that it hasn't worked out...so he needs to give young guns a chance.  It really isn't that hard to figure out.

Did you have this figured out back when you said Dawson would get 15min in the OSU game, or is this a new realization that you have come to?

Oh, and I can go back through MU history and show you where frosh. have gotten more minutes than upper classman.

I can also show you video where Buzz tells the guys that seniority doesn't matter, and it's the toughest 5 guys who will play.

Quote from: windyplayer on November 22, 2013, 12:32:34 PM
No, he doesn't. You don't know this by watching practices. You only know part of it--playing in games is just different. I can't quantify the difference but see EVERY diamond in the rough in sports history for references.

By that logic, Buzz should get every player in every game, just in case he catches lightning a bottle. Also, open try-outs should be every fall, just in case somebody on campus can walk-on and be better than Derrick Wilson.

C'mon.

Dawson will get his opportunities, guys.

But, if Buzz isn't playing him, the most likely reason is because Dawson isn't ready yet.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 22, 2013, 12:33:13 PM
Again, Buzz sees these kids everyday. He gets paid to know who can play. When they should play.

That's it.

Henry Sugar wanted more Steve Taylor last season. Henry Sugar was right, because he provided advanced metrics based upon Steve's performance. Steve forced his way into the line-up, and Buzz said as much. He earned his minutes.

Fans saying: "We need to see what Dawson can do for the future" is a bit silly for a team that was picked to win the conference.

We were picked to win the conference before people realized how we are constantly playing 3 or 4 on 5 when jake and Derrick are in.

Again. The kid can't even make free throws.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 22, 2013, 12:34:53 PM
Did you have this figured out back when you said Dawson would get 15min in the OSU game, or is this a new realization that you have come to?

Sorry every prediction I make can't come true....but I will guarantee you Derrick Wilson will not be getting 35 minutes a game by conference play.  But instead of your typical smug, aloof response - why don't you make an argument against what I said - that Buzz like many coaches gives their vets every chance to earn the majority of minutes....and when he has enough evidence they aren't worthy...he can make a change with evidence and not affect team chemistry.  "It isn't rocket science."  

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 22, 2013, 12:37:18 PM
By that logic, Buzz should get every player in every game, just in case he catches lightning a bottle. Also, open try-outs should be every fall, just in case somebody on campus can walk-on and be better than Derrick Wilson.

C'mon.

Dawson will get his opportunities, guys.

But, if Buzz isn't playing him, the most likely reason is because Dawson isn't ready yet.

Um, no. This occurs when an opportunity presents itself. I'm aguing that Derrick Wilson's poor play presents that opportunity and Buzz should at least explore it. And obviously, there needs to be a threshold of talent as every diamond in the rough has had.

Quote from: Ners on November 22, 2013, 12:38:35 PM
Sorry every prediction I make can't come true....but I will guarantee you Derrick Wilson will not be getting 35 minutes a game by conference play.  But instead of your typical smug, aloof response - why don't you make an argument against what I said - that Buzz like many coaches gives their vets every chance to earn the majority of minutes....and when he has enough evidence they aren't worthy...he can make a change with evidence and not affect team chemistry.  "It isn't rocket science."  

Buzz's job is to win basketball games. Under no circumstances is he thinking, "Playing Dawson, Johnson and Burton would give us a better chance to win, but I'd rather give a senior walk-on big minutes because he's a senior."

Quote from: windyplayer on November 22, 2013, 12:39:11 PM
Um, no. This occurs when an opportunity presents itself. I'm aguing that Derrick Wilson's poor play presents that opportunity and Buzz should at least explore it. And obviously, there needs to be a threshold of talent as every diamond in the rough has had.

Buzz IS exploring other options by having Jamil run the point.

Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on November 22, 2013, 12:23:23 PMWe don't know enough about Dawson but we know Derrick isn't a starter. Why not let Dawson develop? Derrick is a junior we know what he is. Worst case scenario Dawson plays just as bad, at least he gets experience and the chance to develop into something.

No, not worst case scenario. Worst case scenario, Dawson plays notably worse. Turns the ball over 4-5 times per game, breaks up the defensive cohesion (the one outstanding part of this team right now), while providing no more offensive punch (as he hasn't shown any more offensive ability thus far than Derrick has).

What has anyone seen from Dawson to indicate he's any better on the offensive end than Derrick is? What Derrick brings has been discussed to death, and further explained by Guns in this thread. Why does anyone think Dawson will automatically be better? Simply because he's different, or because they don't like Derrick as a player and figure "it can't get worse than this".

But that's not true. It can get much worse than this.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 22, 2013, 12:48:44 PM
Buzz IS exploring other options by having Jamil run the point.

That's not viable. That's taking a true talent at the 3/4 and plugging him in at the 1 to get a little better while taking a huge hit in the front court.

Quote from: Ners on November 22, 2013, 12:38:35 PM
Sorry every prediction I make can't come true....but I will guarantee you Derrick Wilson will not be getting 35 minutes a game by conference play.  But instead of your typical smug, aloof response - why don't you make an argument against what I said - that Buzz like many coaches gives their vets every chance to earn the majority of minutes....and when he has enough evidence they aren't worthy...he can make a change with evidence and not affect team chemistry.  "It isn't rocket science."  

WHO PLAYS HERE???

http://youtu.be/_nf7SuRwIfE
http://youtu.be/_nf7SuRwIfE?t=8m54s

Quote from: windyplayer on November 22, 2013, 12:55:52 PM
That's not viable. That's taking a true talent at the 3/4 and plugging him in at the 1 to get a little better while taking a huge hit in the front court.

At this point, it's a more viable option than Dawson running the point.

Quote from: melissasmooth on November 22, 2013, 09:05:41 AM
We may not know, but Buzz sees him practice every day. Don't you think if Buzz thought Dawson was the answer he would be using him more? Or do you think Buzz gets a thrill out of seeing MU play like crap. If Buzz thought Dawson was the answer he wouldn't be using JWilson at the point as much either

I don't know what Buzz sees in Jake, yet he plays him. I say he's on the pine for ASU.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 22, 2013, 12:54:29 PM
No, not worst case scenario. Worst case scenario, Dawson plays notably worse. Turns the ball over 4-5 times per game, breaks up the defensive cohesion (the one outstanding part of this team right now), while providing no more offensive punch (as he hasn't shown any more offensive ability thus far than Derrick has).

What has anyone seen from Dawson to indicate he's any better on the offensive end than Derrick is? What Derrick brings has been discussed to death, and further explained by Guns in this thread. Why does anyone think Dawson will automatically be better? Simply because he's different, or because they don't like Derrick as a player and figure "it can't get worse than this".

But that's not true. It can get much worse than this.

I've seen Dawson lead effective fast breaks and create easy looks for teammates, far more than what I've seen of Derrick Wilson - yes...just in the Grambling game alone - the only relevant sample size as he got 20 minutes that game.  Last night Dawson got 8 minutes, 4 of which were off the ball with Jamil playing PG - hard to show a lot as a PG in 4 minutes....as for it being able to get much worse??  Please...here's the season stats for the team...Derrick has played the MOST minutes yet ranks at the absolute bottom of the roster??  But yeah, people are really overreacting saying he's been bad.  Comical.

Player   GP   MIN   PPG   RPG   APG   SPG   BPG   TPG   FG%   FT%   3P%
Todd Mayo   4   22.8   13.8   4.3   2.0   1.5   0.5   1.8   .395   .840   .267
Davante Gardner   4   20.8   12.5   4.5   0.3   0.3   0.8   1.5   .464   .667   .000
Chris Otule   4   19.5   9.8   3.5   0.0   0.3   0.5   1.5   .867   .448   .000
Jamil Wilson   4   24.8   8.3   4.8   1.8   0.8   0.5   1.3   .313   .667   .250
Jake Thomas   4   21.5   5.3   3.0   1.0   0.8   0.0   1.3   .261   1.000   .278
Deonte Burton   4   12.5   4.8   2.8   0.3   1.3   0.3   0.3   .364   .600   .000
Steve Taylor, Jr.   4   15.0   4.3   6.8   1.3   0.3   0.0   0.5   .389   .500   .000
JaJuan Johnson   3   14.0   4.0   0.3   0.3   0.3   0.0   0.0   .267   1.000   .143
Juan Anderson   4   15.8   3.8   4.5   2.3   1.3   0.0   2.3   .429   .500   .000
Dylan Flood   1   1.0   2.0   1.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   1.000   .000   .000
John Dawson   3   11.3   1.0   1.7   2.0   0.0   0.0   1.0   .143   .500   .000
Derrick Wilson   4   28.3   1.0   4.8   4.0   0.5   0.3   1.5   .100   .250   .000

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 22, 2013, 01:03:23 PM
At this point, it's a more viable option than Dawson running the point.

Really? Lets see Jamil handle full court pressure then decide

Quote from: Ners on November 22, 2013, 01:12:02 PM
I've seen Dawson lead effective fast breaks and create easy looks for teammates, far more than what I've seen of Derrick Wilson - yes...just in the Grambling game alone - the only relevant sample size as he got 20 minutes that game.  Last night Dawson got 8 minutes, 4 of which were off the ball with Jamil playing PG - hard to show a lot as a PG in 4 minutes....as for it being able to get much worse??  Please...here's the season stats for the team...Derrick has played the MOST minutes yet ranks at the absolute bottom of the roster??  But yeah, people are really overreacting saying he's been bad.  Comical.

Player   GP   MIN   PPG   RPG   APG   SPG   BPG   TPG   FG%   FT%   3P%
Todd Mayo   4   22.8   13.8   4.3   2.0   1.5   0.5   1.8   .395   .840   .267
Davante Gardner   4   20.8   12.5   4.5   0.3   0.3   0.8   1.5   .464   .667   .000
Chris Otule   4   19.5   9.8   3.5   0.0   0.3   0.5   1.5   .867   .448   .000
Jamil Wilson   4   24.8   8.3   4.8   1.8   0.8   0.5   1.3   .313   .667   .250
Jake Thomas   4   21.5   5.3   3.0   1.0   0.8   0.0   1.3   .261   1.000   .278
Deonte Burton   4   12.5   4.8   2.8   0.3   1.3   0.3   0.3   .364   .600   .000
Steve Taylor, Jr.   4   15.0   4.3   6.8   1.3   0.3   0.0   0.5   .389   .500   .000
JaJuan Johnson   3   14.0   4.0   0.3   0.3   0.3   0.0   0.0   .267   1.000   .143
Juan Anderson   4   15.8   3.8   4.5   2.3   1.3   0.0   2.3   .429   .500   .000
Dylan Flood   1   1.0   2.0   1.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   1.000   .000   .000
John Dawson   3   11.3   1.0   1.7   2.0   0.0   0.0   1.0   .143   .500   .000
Derrick Wilson   4   28.3   1.0   4.8   4.0   0.5   0.3   1.5   .100   .250   .000

In other words...ME LIKE POINTS!

Quote from: 79Warrior on November 22, 2013, 01:12:13 PM
Really? Lets see Jamil handle full court pressure then decide

I trust Buzz more than I trust the basketball stupids on this board.

Quote from: Ners on November 22, 2013, 12:30:34 PM
You and some others fail to comprehend the inner workings of a high major basketball program.  You give the vets every chance to win the majority of the minutes out of loyalty...you don't do that....and you run risk of destroying team chemistry which is critical.  Buzz has to be able to point to evidence he gave Derrick, Jake, Todd, Jamil - every chance to win majority of minutes - but that it hasn't worked out...so he needs to give young guns a chance.  It really isn't that hard to figure out.

I think you should stop making excuses for why the coach you admire so much doesn't share your opinion.

Quote from: windyplayer on November 22, 2013, 12:55:52 PM
That's not viable. That's taking a true talent at the 3/4 and plugging him in at the 1 to get a little better while taking a huge hit in the front court.

Is it? If Jamil can play the point legitimately (a big if, considering how he dribbles and we've yet to see him handle real pressure) at a decent level, I have no problem with Steve, Juan, and Deonte handling the burdens at the 3/4 with Davante getting some time there in a jumbo package.

I agree Jamil is our best 3/4 switchable, and Derrick is our best pure point, but if we go to next man up, it seems pretty clear Steve, Juan, and Deonte are more ready for the role of filling Jamil's shoes than anyone else is for filling Derrick's.

ITS NOVEMBER 22nd AND WE ARE 3-1.  MAYBE WE SHOULD STOP FREAKING OUT.

Quote from: Ners on November 22, 2013, 12:38:35 PM
Sorry every prediction I make can't come true....but I will guarantee you Derrick Wilson will not be getting 35 minutes a game by conference play.  But instead of your typical smug, aloof response - why don't you make an argument against what I said - that Buzz like many coaches gives their vets every chance to earn the majority of minutes....and when he has enough evidence they aren't worthy...he can make a change with evidence and not affect team chemistry.  "It isn't rocket science."  

Name one time that Buzz has done this previously.  Name one time when he started and played a senior and sat a more talented player behind him.

The only possible one is when he started Buycks over Junior, but I think that is quite debatable.  

Backup QB/PG = most popular guy on any struggling team.

I wonder how charged up people would be if we actually lost any of these games we were supposed to win.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 22, 2013, 01:17:23 PM
it seems pretty clear Steve, Juan, and Deonte are more ready for the role of filling Jamil's shoes than anyone else is for filling Derrick's.

This is where we disagree. And that's OK.

Quote from: tower912 on November 22, 2013, 11:17:51 AM
DeWilson isn't the problem.   He isn't the solution either, but neither is Dawson at this point. 

This is the bottom line IMO. I trust Buzz's PT strategy at this point.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 22, 2013, 01:14:09 PM
In other words...ME LIKE POINTS!

Ahh try....me would like the guy who gets the most minutes on the team to not be DEAD last in scoring....and yeah...I'd hope his rebounds and assists per game are among the highest when he's getting the most minutes.  Look at Derrick from a statistical perspective of Per 40 and it is horrific...Derrick gets about 1 assist every 7 minutes....so call it 5.5 assists per 40 minutes played....hardly amazing performance when your points per 40 goes all the way up to 1.03 points per 40.

Quote from: MUSF on November 22, 2013, 01:30:32 PM
Backup QB/PG = most popular guy on any struggling team.

Well when your starting QB would have a rating of about 35....it's pretty likely the backup wouldn't be any worse.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 22, 2013, 01:23:50 PM

Name one time that Buzz has done this previously.  Name one time when he started and played a senior and sat a more talented player behind him.

The only possible one is when he started Buycks over Junior, but I think that is quite debatable.  

Obviously I've been one of Buzz's biggest fans...and continue to be...doesn't mean I'm always going to be 100% in agreement with every decision he makes...but....he did mention several times last year that he thought Derrick deserved to play more than Junior...but out of loyalty to Junior..he was going to ride him...

So....it is entirely possible that Derrick Wilson shows a lot more in practice than he has in games, or Buzz's radar is just way off on Derrick - because what Junior did last year and Derrick has shown thus far this year.....not even a contest...

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 22, 2013, 01:17:23 PM
Is it? If Jamil can play the point legitimately (a big if, considering how he dribbles and we've yet to see him handle real pressure) at a decent level, I have no problem with Steve, Juan, and Deonte handling the burdens at the 3/4 with Davante getting some time there in a jumbo package.

I agree Jamil is our best 3/4 switchable, and Derrick is our best pure point, but if we go to next man up, it seems pretty clear Steve, Juan, and Deonte are more ready for the role of filling Jamil's shoes than anyone else is for filling Derrick's.

I think Juan played about 25 minutes last night. And clearly, he hustled more than any player on either team last night. Hence, increased playing time.

Quote from: Ners on November 22, 2013, 01:35:11 PM
Well when your starting QB would have a rating of about 35....it's pretty likely the backup wouldn't be any worse.

From a fans' perspective sure, but fans don't see what happens in practice or how much respect each respective player has with their teammates. That is why I trust Buzz at this point. I was certainly surprised that Dawson didn't see the floor against OSU, but I'm not at practice or in the locker room.

Now, I hope Buzz is developing some alternate options to address some of our weaknesses while he helps the starters work through their struggles, but I don't think yanking established guys after a few games is necessarily the recipe for success. The CBB season isn't a sprint. Let's see where we're at in a few months before advocating massive changes.

Quote from: brandx on November 22, 2013, 01:38:54 PM
I think Juan played about 25 minutes last night. And clearly, he hustled more than any player on either team last night. Hence, increased playing time.

I agree with you - thought Juan was at least all over the place with hustle last night and did impact the game positively.  Reminds me of Joe Fulce.  Not sure Juan is yet a 25 minute player....but Buzz will reward the effort, and effort alone because that is what he seems to be more frustrated with than anything at this point.

Quote from: Ners on November 22, 2013, 01:37:59 PM
Obviously I've been one of Buzz's biggest fans...and continue to be...doesn't mean I'm always going to be 100% in agreement with every decision he makes...but....he did mention several times last year that he thought Derrick deserved to play more than Junior...but out of loyalty to Junior..he was going to ride him...

So....it is entirely possible that Derrick Wilson shows a lot more in practice than he has in games, or Buzz's radar is just way off on Derrick - because what Junior did last year and Derrick has shown thus far this year.....not even a contest...

The toughest guys will get to play.

Dawson's just not ready yet, and that's ok.

Buzz will work it out.

Just a thought on the title of this thread...

I would bet there are more rocket scientists employed in this country than D1 bball coaches. Coaching at this level certainly isn't as easy as the title implies.

Quote from: Ners on November 22, 2013, 01:48:22 PM
I agree with you - thought Juan was at least all over the place with hustle last night and did impact the game positively.  Reminds me of Joe Fulce.  Not sure Juan is yet a 25 minute player....but Buzz will reward the effort, and effort alone because that is what he seems to be more frustrated with than anything at this point.

I have to disagree about Juan, MU does need hustle players, they need a player or two who can score.  To me, Juan is just a player, he looked great in his senior video but I have seen
nothing that resembles that now.  Has no feel on the offensive end,  I thought he could be at least a 10 point scorer, maybe something will click.  Maybe he just needs to hit a few shots
to get going.  Hard to play 3 on 5 with Derrick in the game as well.

Seriously, if guys are hitting open shots, is anyone pissing and moaning about all this? Hit the bunnies against tOSU and half the wide-open threes and we win the game, are 4-0, and if we hit open shots in the other games, we win them all comfortably.

This all comes down to guys missing open shots. Gardner's FG% is down over 12% from last year. Jamil's is down over 13%. Jake is down 5%. That's three of the top four in terms of attempts who have seen a significant drop in their field goal percentage.

Of course people would be happier if they were making their shots.  But that is the whole point.  This team is not a very good outside shooting team.  They weren't last year and they won't be this year.  MU teams during Buzz's tenure (with the exception of Lazar and the midgets year) have not been great shooting teams.  They have been drive and dish and drive to the rim teams, make your living on the line teams.  Now our starting point guard can't drive and can't pass off the dribble.  Of course he doesn't have many turnovers, he never dribbles inside the 3 point line.  The starting 2 (Jake) can't drive or pass off the dribble.  Juan can't either.  That leaves only Mayo and he can drive but he doesn't pass much.  Buzz realizes this and its a fundamental problem (not a cold streak that will fix itself).  He knows the guards on the court ARE UNABLE to play the way his past 7 years of teams have played.  He's trying to change the way they play by relying on fast passing (did you notice all the skip passes last night).  The problem is that this type of passing games ultimately relies on good perimeter shooting (the way Wisconsin plays) and as BUZZ WOULD SAY WE ARE NOT BUILT THAT WAY.  This is a serious problem and you are kidding yourself if you think its just a cold streak.  Sure they will get hot from time to time and they will win those games (probably) but unless something changes they are going to lose more than they win.
The only hope I believe is to have JJJ start hitting the outside shot he was recruited for.  Have Duane Wilson come back and shoot well and have Burton and Dawson get more confident to drive the lane.  In otherwords we have to depend on the as yet unproven talent of the freshman to fix our backcourt because we can't play the basketball we are BUILT FOR with what is out there now.   

Quote from: Ners on November 22, 2013, 01:37:59 PM
Obviously I've been one of Buzz's biggest fans...and continue to be...doesn't mean I'm always going to be 100% in agreement with every decision he makes...but....he did mention several times last year that he thought Derrick deserved to play more than Junior...but out of loyalty to Junior..he was going to ride him...

You've twisted yourself into quite a knot here.

So based on what Buzz said last year, you think that Buzz started a guy out of loyalty (Junior) versus who he thought was the better player (Derrick).

Yet now he is starting a guy out of loyalty (Derrick) over the better player (Dawson).

So if the transitive property is in full effect here, that means Dawson>>>>Derrick>>>>Junior.

Is that really what you are saying?

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 22, 2013, 03:41:50 PM

You've twisted yourself into quite a knot here.

So based on what Buzz said last year, you think that Buzz started a guy out of loyalty (Junior) versus who he thought was the better player (Derrick).

Yet now he is starting a guy out of loyalty (Derrick) over the better player (Dawson).

So if the transitive property is in full effect here, that means Dawson>>>>Derrick>>>>Junior.

Is that really what you are saying?

Maybe this is indeed rocket science...

Quote from: NotAnAlum on November 22, 2013, 03:22:50 PMOf course people would be happier if they were making their shots.  But that is the whole point.  This team is not a very good outside shooting team.  They weren't last year and they won't be this year.  MU teams during Buzz's tenure (with the exception of Lazar and the midgets year) have not been great shooting teams.

They don't have to be an outside shooting team. I really don't think I'm asking for much. Last year we weren't a great outside shooting team, but when left alone, Junior, Vander, and Jamil usually knocked down the shot. And we were the best team in the league inside the arc. Not at the line, but in terms of 2PFG%.

Make our easy misses inside the arc and hit half the wide-open looks from three and we still won't be a great shooting team, but we don't have to be with this defense.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 22, 2013, 03:41:50 PM

You've twisted yourself into quite a knot here.

So based on what Buzz said last year, you think that Buzz started a guy out of loyalty (Junior) versus who he thought was the better player (Derrick).

Yet now he is starting a guy out of loyalty (Derrick) over the better player (Dawson).

So if the transitive property is in full effect here, that means Dawson>>>>Derrick>>>>Junior.

Is that really what you are saying?

I'm not sure why I even bother with replying to you Sultan...but....you asked 1 example of when Buzz has played a senior player over a better younger player.  I gave you the above example.  Buzz said it last year..several times...that maybe Derrick should be the starter, but he's loyal and riding Junior.  So, like I wrote...maybe Derrick is just a great practice player, but can't put it together in games.  Maybe Buzz was just tweaking Junior and trying to light a fire underneath him...

One area you and I can at least agree on is:  We both know Derrick Wilson is not the answer at PG, and that unless he somehow radically improves - and if Buzz continues to ride him -it will be a long year.  I doubt that will happen, as we at least saw Jamil there for awhile.  Would I prefer that Buzz give Dawson that run at point??  Yes....just to see what he can do with some good, long stretches of minutes.  Maybe Dawson doesn't earn it in practice, and is perhaps the opposite of Derrick - in that Dawson plays better when the lights come on....but yes, all I can base it off of was what I saw Dawson do in the Grambling game when he got extended run.  Yes it was Grambling - but he looked the part of PG a lot more than Derrick.  (Which I'm sure you will know try to roast me for saying - looked the part.)  To which I've answered why I feel that way 10 times for you, Brew, Ammo....but of those 3, at least you too can identify that Derrick Wilson is not the answer at PG for this team.

Quote from: Ners on November 22, 2013, 04:36:46 PM
Derrick Wilson is not the answer at PG for this team.

I think something is getting lost in the semantics.

I do not think Derrick Wilson is a great PG. He's average/below average, and he's played like it.

BUT...

He's the best PG option on the roster. Buzz will continue to give him 20+ minutes.

That's it.

Jamil will get some minutes. Todd will get some minutes. That's fine. Those minutes are coming because Derrick hasn't been great, and there isn't a serviceable replacement on the roster.

At some point, maybe dawson and or duane will be ready... but for now, Derrick is the guy.

Quote from: Ners on November 22, 2013, 04:36:46 PM
I'm not sure why I even bother with replying to you Sultan...but....you asked 1 example of when Buzz has played a senior player over a better younger player.  I gave you the above example.  Buzz said it last year..several times...that maybe Derrick should be the starter, but he's loyal and riding Junior.  So, like I wrote...maybe Derrick is just a great practice player, but can't put it together in games.  Maybe Buzz was just tweaking Junior and trying to light a fire underneath him...

BTW, he didn't say Derrick was better.  Buzz said that he "deserved to start" over Junior.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 22, 2013, 04:50:44 PM
I think something is getting lost in the semantics.
He's the best PG option on the roster.

See 100 other posts on this thread. That's debatable.

Quote from: windyplayer on November 22, 2013, 04:59:20 PM
See 100 other posts on this thread. That's debatable.

Right, but I think somehow saying "Derrick is the best on the roster" gets translated into:

"Derrick is good at PG!"... which isn't what I've said.

Derrick is the best option on the roster, not unlike Dwight Burke, Ousmane Barro, Junior Cadougan, or many others in a long list of MU role players.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 22, 2013, 05:08:55 PM
Right, but I think somehow saying "Derrick is the best on the roster" gets translated into:

"Derrick is good at PG!"... which isn't what I've said.

Derrick is the best option on the roster, not unlike Dwight Burke, Ousmane Barro, Junior Cadougan, or many others in a long list of MU role players.

How can you say Derrick is the best PG on the roster, when you've seen only 1 game where Dawson got a fair amount of run to show what he could do - Grambling.  Derrick leads the team in minutes played.  We've seen 2 years of Derrick prior to this year.  To just assume he's the best PG option on the roster, is, well, quite assumptive.  Dawson showed well in the game he got 20 minutes.  All I want to see is what Dawson can show getting 20 minutes a game moving forward.  I know one thing - it won't be worse than what Derrick has "shown." 

Quote from: Ners on November 22, 2013, 05:14:37 PM
How can you say Derrick is the best PG on the roster, when you've seen only 1 game where Dawson got a fair amount of run to show what he could do - Grambling.  Derrick leads the team in minutes played.  We've seen 2 years of Derrick prior to this year.  To just assume he's the best PG option on the roster, is, well, quite assumptive.  Dawson showed well in the game he got 20 minutes.  All I want to see is what Dawson can show getting 20 minutes a game moving forward.  I know one thing - it won't be worse than what Derrick has "shown."  

I trust that Buzz Williams puts his toughest/most effective players on the floor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nf7SuRwIfE&feature=youtu.be&t=8m54s

http://youtu.be/uC7QEOa_MCo?t=6m23s

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 22, 2013, 05:19:36 PM
I trust that Buzz Williams puts his toughest/most effective players on the floor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nf7SuRwIfE&feature=youtu.be&t=8m54s

http://youtu.be/uC7QEOa_MCo?t=6m23s

Exactly.  It's not loyalty.  It's this.

Quote from: windyplayer on November 22, 2013, 08:50:54 AM
We don't know that Dawson is not the answer; we KNOW that De Wilson is not the answer.

Huge case of backup quarterback syndrome

Quote from: setyoursightsnorth on November 22, 2013, 01:08:44 PM
I don't know what Buzz sees in Jake, yet he plays him. I say he's on the pine for ASU.

Best 3P shooter on the team so far in both 3PM and 3P%. Also an above average defender on a very talented defense.

His offensive skill set is limited but we need three point threat to unclog the paint. Jake hasn't been great at it, but he's been the best at it so far this season.

Read this thread in its entirety. HILARIOUS stuff in here.

1. The title of the thread alone is ridiculous. It implies right off the bat that the OP thinks Buzz is a hack who doesn't know how to put together a starting lineup.
2. Speaking of the OP, I think we should really fire Buzz and hire HaywardHeroes, he clearly knows better than a coach who has been to the dance 5 times, sweet 16 3 times, and elite 8 once.
3. There was at least an entire page of posts about spelling and grammar. Brew, stop being a spelling nazi. HH, it's spelled Otule and you did use literally incorrectly.
4. We are an ugly offensive team. But we are a good basketball team. Somehow we need to come to terms with that fact.
5. DEFENSE IS JUST AS IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT THAN OFFENSE
6. D Wilson can't score and isn't the best floor general. Dawson's offensive potential is unknown to scoopers but not to Buzz. We know D Wilson is a stellar defender. Again, DEFENSE IS JUST AS IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT THAN OFFENSE
7. Buzz does not start seniors for the sake of loyalty. He starts who will win him the game. To assume otherwise is ridiculous.
8. Team Derrick: He is an above average defender and a below average offensive player. Let's not make him to be more than he is. Team Dawson: If Buzz is sitting him this much against cupcakes, it probably means he is not ready. Buzz knows better than you.
9. Guns N Ammo, your avatar creeps me out but I think you are one of my favorite posters. The bit about firing Buzz if he was starting the wrong guy was brilliant
10. Props to whoever wrote "ITS NOVEMBER 22 AND WE ARE 3-1. MAYBE WE SHOULD STOP FREAKING OUT. Truer words have never been spoken

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 23, 2013, 02:37:24 AM
Read this thread in its entirety. HILARIOUS stuff in here.

1. The title of the thread alone is ridiculous. It implies right off the bat that the OP thinks Buzz is a hack who doesn't know how to put together a starting lineup.
2. Speaking of the OP, I think we should really fire Buzz and hire HaywardHeroes, he clearly knows better than a coach who has been to the dance 5 times, sweet 16 3 times, and elite 8 once.
3. There was at least an entire page of posts about spelling and grammar. Brew, stop being a spelling nazi. HH, it's spelled Otule and you did use literally incorrectly.
4. We are an ugly offensive team. But we are a good basketball team. Somehow we need to come to terms with that fact.
5. DEFENSE IS JUST AS IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT THAN OFFENSE
6. D Wilson can't score and isn't the best floor general. Dawson's offensive potential is unknown to scoopers but not to Buzz. We know D Wilson is a stellar defender. Again, DEFENSE IS JUST AS IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT THAN OFFENSE
7. Buzz does not start seniors for the sake of loyalty. He starts who will win him the game. To assume otherwise is ridiculous.
8. Team Derrick: He is an above average defender and a below average offensive player. Let's not make him to be more than he is. Team Dawson: If Buzz is sitting him this much against cupcakes, it probably means he is not ready. Buzz knows better than you.
9. Guns N Ammo, your avatar creeps me out but I think you are one of my favorite posters. The bit about firing Buzz if he was starting the wrong guy was brilliant
10. Props to whoever wrote "ITS NOVEMBER 22 AND WE ARE 3-1. MAYBE WE SHOULD STOP FREAKING OUT. Truer words have never been spoken

11.  Buzz has recognized the deficiencies on offence and reacted pretty quickly by trying Jamil at the point.  Other adjustments to come, I'm sure.
12.  Our current 2pt shooting slump (statistically) cannot continue.  Even with an anemic point our bigs can't continue to miss no-footers all season.

Quote from: Ners on November 22, 2013, 01:37:59 PM
Obviously I've been one of Buzz's biggest fans...and continue to be...doesn't mean I'm always going to be 100% in agreement with every decision he makes...but....he did mention several times last year that he thought Derrick deserved to play more than Junior...but out of loyalty to Junior..he was going to ride him...

So....it is entirely possible that Derrick Wilson shows a lot more in practice than he has in games, or Buzz's radar is just way off on Derrick - because what Junior did last year and Derrick has shown thus far this year.....not even a contest...

Reggie Smith started several games, and received decent minutes (in front of Junior who Buzz LOVES) when he was a frosh.

Frosh. can/will play if they are doing what Buzz wants in practice.

Watch the revealed videos again.

Dawson might eventually be all-american, and the #1 pick in the draft... but right now... today... he's not where Buzz wants him to be.

Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on November 22, 2013, 12:03:45 PM
And you don't seem to know basketball

Which is what this message board is.

Game. Set. Match.

Not on this message board!

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 22, 2013, 12:29:01 PM
I'm pretty sure there is 1 guy who knows.

Hints: He makes a lot of money to know stuff like this. He likes expensive suits. He doesn't like combing his hair.

Pitbull? I hear he's a baller.

Quote from: MUSF on November 22, 2013, 02:02:40 PM
Just a thought on the title of this thread...

I would bet there are more rocket scientists employed in this country than D1 bball coaches. Coaching at this level certainly isn't as easy as the title implies.

We employ a few of those guys....

Quote from: Ners on November 22, 2013, 01:37:59 PM
Obviously I've been one of Buzz's biggest fans...and continue to be...doesn't mean I'm always going to be 100% in agreement with every decision he makes...but....he did mention several times last year that he thought Derrick deserved to play more than Junior...but out of loyalty to Junior..he was going to ride him...

So....it is entirely possible that Derrick Wilson shows a lot more in practice than he has in games, or Buzz's radar is just way off on Derrick - because what Junior did last year and Derrick has shown thus far this year.....not even a contest...

I think you are smart enough to know that Buzz was using those words to motivate Junior. If Buzz actually thought Wilson would have helped him win more games, he would have played Wilson more than he played Junior.

Buzz says lots of things. Sometimes, he says them for effect.

Buzz is a coach. Coaches want to win games. Toward that end, they will do what they feel they must do (such as start Junior over Derrick) and say what they feel they must say (such as, "I probably should start Derrick over Junior") to win games.

It isn't Rocket Science...

that the new defensive rules are proving difficult for many teams to adjust so early in the season...

AND we can't shoot worth sh*t!

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 23, 2013, 07:40:51 AM
Reggie Smith started several games, and received decent minutes (in front of Junior who Buzz LOVES) when he was a frosh.

Frosh. can/will play if they are doing what Buzz wants in practice.

Watch the revealed videos again.

Dawson might eventually be all-american, and the #1 pick in the draft... but right now... today... he's not where Buzz wants him to be.

So the 10 players Paint Touches spoke with which praised JJJ, really don't know what they're talking about? Cause JJJ really hasn't seen much time even after being called our best guard by players.

Quote from: Sunbelt15 on November 23, 2013, 05:07:09 PM
So the 10 players Paint Touches spoke with which praised JJJ, really don't know what they're talking about? Cause JJJ really hasn't seen much time even after being called our best guard by players.

JJJ might be the most talented, and that's what the players are seeing. But, until he can do EXACTLY what Buzz wants, he'll sit on the bench.

At just to clarify, JJJ, Dawson, Duane and Burton may all end up being fantastic college players and NBA hall of famers.

BUT... for now... they are Frosh. and Buzz doesn't think they are effective enough to get major minutes. As they improve, that could certainly change.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 23, 2013, 05:22:25 PMJJJ might be the most talented, and that's what the players are seeing. But, until he can do EXACTLY what Buzz wants, he'll sit on the bench.

At just to clarify, JJJ, Dawson, Duane and Burton may all end up being fantastic college players and NBA hall of famers.

BUT... for now... they are Frosh. and Buzz doesn't think they are effective enough to get major minutes. As they improve, that could certainly change.

It wasn't just the players, Buzz said the same thing. But when people are talking about freshmen being impressive and talented, they are usually talking about the offensive end. Until JJJ gets it on the defensive end, which right now he pretty clearly doesn't, he's not going to get a ton of time, especially in meaningful games.

I will just point out using tempo free stats from Pomeroy a few things:
--MU is #3 in the nation in assist% (68.2% v 57.4% last season), as odd as that seems, and Grambling was the lowest assist % game despite a school record being hit.
--Turnover rate is a couple of clicks below last season's average (18.7 v. 20.9).
--A/TO ratio is 1:09 (#141), though, but was 1.03 last season.
--Tempo is actually up:  69 v. 64.4

So, posters will say it is because MU cannot shoot, and there are fewer made unassisted shots in transition with a Vander and Junior gone. Last season, MU made 58.4% of its points from two land versus 53.3% this season. Threes represent a measly 14.4% of MU's points this year, even worse than 18.5% from last year.  All true, and we all know about MU's case of the Yips.

But free throw rate is up significantly: 62.3% v. 40.9%.  And obviously so is MU's % of points from the stripe (32.2% vs. 23.1%).  Combining the FT and 2Pt point distribution, MU is scoring 85% of its points inside the arc this season vs. 81% last season-even a higher skew.  MU is #2 in the nation from points from its centers--33% vs. a 19% national team average--MU's centers are averaging 23 points per game!

Buzz's focus has been defense and not fouling with the new rules, with his limited practice time. Feed the post on offense to get the calls early. (One can see why freshman minutes have been limited). He has a half court offense PG, versus an open court maven last year.  Early on, we can see that MU is a very different team as a result.  As this team practices and works on offensive sets, spacing and shot selection, and if the case of the Yips is cured, a BIG if viewing from today, look out.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 24, 2013, 09:28:40 AM
I will just point out using tempo free stats from Pomeroy a few things:
--MU is #3 in the nation in assist% (68.2% v 57.4% last season), as odd as that seems, and Grambling was the lowest assist % game despite a school record being hit.
--Turnover rate is a couple of clicks below last season's average (18.7 v. 20.9).
--A/TO ratio is 1:09 (#141), though, but was 1.03 last season.
--Tempo is actually up:  69 v. 64.4

So, posters will say it is because MU cannot shoot, and there are fewer made unassisted shots in transition with a Vander and Junior gone. Last season, MU made 58.4% of its points from two land versus 53.3% this season. Threes represent a measly 14.4% of MU's points this year, even worse than 18.5% from last year.  All true, and we all know about MU's case of the Yips.

But free throw rate is up significantly: 62.3% v. 40.9%.  And obviously so is MU's % of points from the stripe (32.2% vs. 23.1%).  Combining the FT and 2Pt point distribution, MU is scoring 85% of its points inside the arc this season vs. 81% last season-even a higher skew.  MU is #2 in the nation from points from its centers--33% vs. a 19% national team average--MU's centers are averaging 23 points per game!

Buzz's focus has been defense and not fouling with the new rules, with his limited practice time. Feed the post on offense to get the calls early. (One can see why freshman minutes have been limited). He has a half court offense PG, versus an open court maven last year.  Early on, we can see that MU is a very different team as a result.  As this team practices and works on offensive sets, spacing and shot selection, and if the case of the Yips is cured, a BIG if viewing from today, look out.

Great post doc

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 24, 2013, 09:28:40 AM
I will just point out using tempo free stats from Pomeroy a few things:
--MU is #3 in the nation in assist% (68.2% v 57.4% last season), as odd as that seems, and Grambling was the lowest assist % game despite a school record being hit.
--Turnover rate is a couple of clicks below last season's average (18.7 v. 20.9).
--A/TO ratio is 1:09 (#141), though, but was 1.03 last season.
--Tempo is actually up:  69 v. 64.4

So, posters will say it is because MU cannot shoot, and there are fewer made unassisted shots in transition with a Vander and Junior gone. Last season, MU made 58.4% of its points from two land versus 53.3% this season. Threes represent a measly 14.4% of MU's points this year, even worse than 18.5% from last year.  All true, and we all know about MU's case of the Yips.

But free throw rate is up significantly: 62.3% v. 40.9%.  And obviously so is MU's % of points from the stripe (32.2% vs. 23.1%).  Combining the FT and 2Pt point distribution, MU is scoring 85% of its points inside the arc this season vs. 81% last season-even a higher skew.  MU is #2 in the nation from points from its centers--33% vs. a 19% national team average--MU's centers are averaging 23 points per game!

Buzz's focus has been defense and not fouling with the new rules, with his limited practice time. Feed the post on offense to get the calls early. (One can see why freshman minutes have been limited). He has a half court offense PG, versus an open court maven last year.  Early on, we can see that MU is a very different team as a result.  As this team practices and works on offensive sets, spacing and shot selection, and if the case of the Yips is cured, a BIG if viewing from today, look out.

This tells me a lot about "advanced stats." Which is that, just like "regular" stats, they often lie.

Quote from: MU82 on November 24, 2013, 11:19:09 AM
This tells me a lot about "advanced stats." Which is that, just like "regular" stats, they often lie.

Rather than just throwing that claim out there, back it up.  Our coach lives by these and has done quite well with advanced stats. We get that you don't think DeWilson is a very good PG...and Jake should sit.  But it is a reality that MU will be a plodding team with its roster.

Listen, MU cannot hit shots yet. Fact. It is the root cause of their issue...but that is because MU is trying to get free throws early on, building on its strengths, and Buzz chose to do it this way with practice.  Possessions are up only because of all the fouls called.  MU is getting points, a lot of its points, on dead time.  They are not turning it over as much and they are assisting more as a percent of those possessions where a foul isn't called.  That is what the advanced stats explain:  MU, early on, is going with its strengths.

Had time to cool off and reflect on this team and have come up with:  It isn't rocket science - it's nearly impossible to win at the high major level with a PG that thus far has shown no more than mid-low major ability.  The offense is going to continue to be ugly, when the PG getting 30 minutes a game does nothing to spark offense.

Glad Buzz sees this already, having moved Jamil to the point against New Hampshire.  Buzz will get it right whether that means Jamil at the point, more Dawson - but ultimately less Derrick Wilson.

Quote from: Ners on November 24, 2013, 11:46:58 AM
Had time to cool off and reflect on this team and have come up with:  It isn't rocket science - it's nearly impossible to win at the high major level with a PG that thus far has shown no more than mid-low major ability.  The offense is going to continue to be ugly, when the PG getting 30 minutes a game does nothing to spark offense.

Glad Buzz sees this already, having moved Jamil to the point against New Hampshire.  Buzz will get it right whether that means Jamil at the point, more Dawson - but ultimately less Derrick Wilson.

So you cooled down? Reflected? And came up with the exact same answer you had before?

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 24, 2013, 12:28:43 PM
So you cooled down? Reflected? And came up with the exact same answer you had before?

Exactly.  Have you drawn different conclusions?  I know you offered the great backup quarterback analogy - even throwing out people in College Station at times want Manziel's backup (perhaps they were right yesterday?!)  Kidding about that of course.  Why your analogy was flawed is Manziel won a Heisman...is a dynamic talent.  Derrick Wilson has never shown any type of ability to generate offense.  Good defender?  Yes?  That makes him a good backup.  But he is not a catalyst you need a PG to be.

Quote from: Ners on November 24, 2013, 12:33:37 PM
Exactly.  Have you drawn different conclusions?  I know you offered the great backup quarterback analogy - even throwing out people in College Station at times want Manziel's backup (perhaps they were right yesterday?!)  Kidding about that of course.  Why your analogy was flawed is Manziel won a Heisman...is a dynamic talent.  Derrick Wilson has never shown any type of ability to generate offense.  Good defender?  Yes?  That makes him a good backup.  But he is not a catalyst you need a PG to be.

Absolutely. I just thought it was funny that you started with cooled down and reflected. Usually that's a preface to a changed mind. Not saying that it is right or wrong. I just thought the wording was funny

Quote from: Ners on November 24, 2013, 11:46:58 AM
Had time to cool off and reflect on this team and have come up with:  It isn't rocket science - it's nearly impossible to win at the high major level with a PG that thus far has shown no more than mid-low major ability.  The offense is going to continue to be ugly, when the PG getting 30 minutes a game does nothing to spark offense.

Glad Buzz sees this already, having moved Jamil to the point against New Hampshire.  Buzz will get it right whether that means Jamil at the point, more Dawson - but ultimately less Derrick Wilson.

I think that's fair. Derrick is a role player. The more you play him, the more exposed his flaws become.

Derrick is solid for 20-25min. per game. Buzz needs to find some production out of the other 15-20min. The answer might eventually be Duane and/or Dawson. For now, it looks like it's going to be Jamil... which is an interesting wrinkle.

Ive always thought Juan could play the point. He has some handles.

Quote from: esard2011 on November 25, 2013, 11:50:29 AM
Ive always thought Juan could play the point. He has some handles.

Hmmmm....

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 25, 2013, 11:48:21 AM
I think that's fair. Derrick is a role player. The more you play him, the more exposed his flaws become.

Derrick is solid for 20-25min. per game. Buzz needs to find some production out of the other 15-20min. The answer might eventually be Duane and/or Dawson. For now, it looks like it's going to be Jamil... which is an interesting wrinkle.

I agree that Derrick is a role player - a good defender that won't turn the ball over.  In my view, that type of role player is more of a 10-15 minute per game guy....of course depends on other options.  Will be interesting to see what happens tonight.  I was glad to see Buzz try Jamil at the point and get a look at that lineup.  Obviously I hope to see a good look at Dawson, though am afraid Buzz won't give him a good look.

Whatever the case, we just have to get better production out of the PG spot than what we've gotten thus far. 

Quote from: Ners on November 25, 2013, 12:21:18 PM
I agree that Derrick is a role player - a good defender that won't turn the ball over.  In my view, that type of role player is more of a 10-15 minute per game guy....of course depends on other options.  Will be interesting to see what happens tonight.  I was glad to see Buzz try Jamil at the point and get a look at that lineup.  Obviously I hope to see a good look at Dawson, though am afraid Buzz won't give him a good look.

Whatever the case, we just have to get better production out of the PG spot than what we've gotten thus far. 

If MU had a great PG option, Derrick would be a great 15min per game player... not unlike Chris Otule.

The problem is, Travis Diener isn't on the roster, and I don't think Dawson or Duane are ready.

Therefore, Derrick is MU's best option right now. We might not like it... but it's the truth.

With this said, you CAN win with a guy like Derrick playing 25+ min. But, MU needs the other guys to make shots. If the other 4 players are effective on offense, then you can live with Derrick scoring 4 pts and handing out 4 assists. When the other 4 guys are struggling... it makes it even harder to live with Derrick's deficiencies.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 25, 2013, 12:34:45 PM
If MU had a great PG option, Derrick would be a great 15min per game player... not unlike Chris Otule.

The problem is, Travis Diener isn't on the roster, and I don't think Dawson or Duane are ready.

Therefore, Derrick is MU's best option right now. We might not like it... but it's the truth.

With this said, you CAN win with a guy like Derrick playing 25+ min. But, MU needs the other guys to make shots. If the other 4 players are effective on offense, then you can live with Derrick scoring 4 pts and handing out 4 assists. When the other 4 guys are struggling... it makes it even harder to live with Derrick's deficiencies.

My view simply has been that Derrick's offensive deficiencies - not just shooting - but being so "safe" as a PG, rarely forcing the action, collapsing a defense, getting into the paint - are the reason the other MU players are struggling so much offensively.  The team becomes so much easier to defend when you have zero respect for the PG's outside shooting ability, which in turn leads to the defense sagging off the PG, clogging the lane and making "help" easier to provide on our other players. 

My view with Dawson, simply has been I'd like to see a lot more - as we have 2 years of data on Derrick now - let's see what the kid can do.  I really believe Buzz has rolled with Derrick so much partially out of loyalty, but to also get a pulse on what the team's ceiling would be with him running the point.  Needed a benchmark.  Who knows, maybe tonight Derrick puts it all together and plays much better....but history points against that..

Quote from: Ners on November 25, 2013, 02:29:27 PM
My view simply has been that Derrick's offensive deficiencies - not just shooting - but being so "safe" as a PG, rarely forcing the action, collapsing a defense, getting into the paint - are the reason the other MU players are struggling so much offensively.  The team becomes so much easier to defend when you have zero respect for the PG's outside shooting ability, which in turn leads to the defense sagging off the PG, clogging the lane and making "help" easier to provide on our other players.  

My view with Dawson, simply has been I'd like to see a lot more - as we have 2 years of data on Derrick now - let's see what the kid can do.  I really believe Buzz has rolled with Derrick so much partially out of loyalty, but to also get a pulse on what the team's ceiling would be with him running the point.  Needed a benchmark.  Who knows, maybe tonight Derrick puts it all together and plays much better....but history points against that..

Here is where you and I fundamentally disagree.

If/When Dawson has an awesome week of practice, he'll get some clock in a real game (non-grambling). If he plays well, he'll earn more.

Buzz will never play him "just because"

That's it.

Quote from: Ners on November 25, 2013, 02:29:27 PM
My view simply has been that Derrick's offensive deficiencies - not just shooting - but being so "safe" as a PG, rarely forcing the action, collapsing a defense, getting into the paint - are the reason the other MU players are struggling so much offensively. 

I would say Derrick's deficiencies are a reason, not the reason.

I also have been quite vocal in saying we need a better point guard for many of the reasons you state. Still, Derrick's deficiencies didn't make Mayo miss that layup or Jamil miss that dunk or Davante miss those FTs.

Even good PGs need help, and Derrick needs a LOT of help. I'd love to see some of that help arrive tonight.

By the end of this thread, Derrick will also be responsible for Larry Williams, the ACA web-site disaster and global warming.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 25, 2013, 04:41:52 PM
By the end of this thread, Derrick will also be responsible for Larry Williams, the ACA web-site disaster and global warming.

This is known and it shall be

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 25, 2013, 04:41:52 PM
By the end of this thread, Derrick will also be responsible for Larry Williams, the ACA web-site disaster and global warming.

Well, somebody has to be responsible for global warming now that Scoop has decided Trent Lockett wasn't really all that bad.

Tonight's game will bring us one step closer to reconciling this 7-page (and counting) thread. We'll have our final resolution come New Year's Eve in Omaha.

Quote from: windyplayer on November 25, 2013, 05:00:25 PM
Tonight's game will bring us one step closer to reconciling this 7-page (and counting) thread. We'll have our final resolution come New Year's Eve in Omaha.

Truer words have never been spoken....other than perhaps...

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 25, 2013, 04:41:52 PM
By the end of this thread, Derrick will also be responsible for Larry Williams, the ACA web-site disaster and global warming.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 25, 2013, 04:44:55 PM
This is known and it shall be

Me nem nesa