http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1658509-ranking-the-10-most-underrated-coaches-in-college-basketball-history
Joe B. Hall underrated? Good grief...! That is laughable. Lefty Driesell should be on the most overrated list. And , Huggy surely does not belong on the list.
Where's Stew Morrill?
Quote from: wadesworld on June 04, 2013, 08:04:42 PM
Where's Stew Morrill?
More to the point, where in the world is Chico?
You can't be under-rated if you are "legendary."
Quote from: wadesworld on June 04, 2013, 08:04:42 PM
Where's Stew Morrill?
The only name missing to put this joke of a list over the top is Digger Phelps.
What's with the bleacher report posts on here lately?
It's the off-season. Besides, how many times do you ever get to speak of Lefty Driesell?
I would put Ray Meyer in most over rated group. Al leaving made his career.
Quote from: Jay Bee on June 04, 2013, 08:51:29 PM
What's with the bleacher report posts on here lately?
Yeah, no idea why people bother with bleacher report. I would honestly be more interested in it being an open discussion with keefe listing his then trying to make that site some kind of authoritative figure.
Quote from: martyconlonontherun on June 05, 2013, 09:10:19 AM
Yeah, no idea why people bother with bleacher report. I would honestly be more interested in it being an open discussion with keefe listing his then trying to make that site some kind of authoritative figure.
Bleacher Report has two different types of writers now. If the story comes from a "National Writer" or something similar the story has more credibility than if it comes from a ranking or list coming from a "Featured Columnist" who is unpaid except for the clicks they get.
Quote from: Goose on June 05, 2013, 07:29:17 AM
I would put Ray Meyer in most over rated group. Al leaving made his career.
He was good Pre-Al to though. I mean 13 NCAA appearances and 8 NITs (when it was still legit) is not to shabby. But he certainly went through a rough period while Al was up here.
Quote from: Goose on June 05, 2013, 07:29:17 AM
I would put Ray Meyer in most over rated group. Al leaving made his career.
Goose,
I think Meyer had a decent career that spanned decades. I agree, though, that the worst thing that happened to Ray Meyer was Al McGuire joining Marquette. The best thing might have been when Al left Marquette though one could argue that signing George Mikan was more significant.
One of the taboos here seems to be the legacy of Hank Raymonds. I can think of no finer gentleman but I am not convinced he was the best possible hire for a defending national champion. Even at that time, despite Al's endorsements of Hank, many of us in McCormick wondered about that decision. I recall a number of candidates declared their interest in the Marquette position including Denny Crum, Digger Phelps, and Luigi Carnesecca among others. History might have been written rather differently had we gone in a different direction in 1977.
Quote from: keefe on June 05, 2013, 12:02:10 PM
Goose,
I think Meyer had a decent career that spanned decades. I agree, though, that the worst thing that happened to Ray Meyer was Al McGuire joining Marquette. The best thing might have been when Al left Marquette though one could argue that signing George Mikan was more significant.
One of the taboos here seems to be the legacy of Hank Raymonds. I can think of no finer gentleman but I am not convinced he was the best possible hire for a defending national champion. Even at that time, despite Al's endorsements of Hank, many of us in McCormick wondered about that decision. I recall a number of candidates declared their interest in the Marquette position including Denny Crum, Digger Phelps, and Luigi Carnesecca among others. History might have been written rather differently had we gone in a different direction in 1977.
It's very difficult for a school to replace a legend from someone "outside the family." If they hire an outsider and it fails, the AD gets lambasted and turmoil ensues. If the insider fails, the AD shrugs their shoulders and says "hey, he just didn't have it."
See what happens when Coach K retires. I am about 99% certain they will hire from within the family even if none have the chops to do the job. (a la Doughtery at UNC.)
Quote from: keefe on June 05, 2013, 12:02:10 PM
One of the taboos here seems to be the legacy of Hank Raymonds. I can think of no finer gentleman but I am not convinced he was the best possible hire for a defending national champion. Even at that time, despite Al's endorsements of Hank, many of us in McCormick wondered about that decision. I recall a number of candidates declared their interest in the Marquette position including Denny Crum, Digger Phelps, and Luigi Carnesecca among others. History might have been written rather differently had we gone in a different direction in 1977.
This post is the master of the understatement.
Loyalty is very important in life -- and in college basketball. But Hank had been passed over as head coach in 1964 for a reason. That reason did not go away in 1977 and certainly by 1980 we knew we had a problem. A BIG one. All of the bad things that happened to us in the 1980s and until KO rebuilt the program could be traced to this decision.
I agree that Hank was a fine gentleman and an outstanding person who was very loyal to our university. But he was to Al McGuire what Phil Bengston was to Vince Lombardi.
Quote from: keefe on June 05, 2013, 12:02:10 PM
Goose,
I think Meyer had a decent career that spanned decades. I agree, though, that the worst thing that happened to Ray Meyer was Al McGuire joining Marquette. The best thing might have been when Al left Marquette though one could argue that signing George Mikan was more significant.
One of the taboos here seems to be the legacy of Hank Raymonds. I can think of no finer gentleman but I am not convinced he was the best possible hire for a defending national champion. Even at that time, despite Al's endorsements of Hank, many of us in McCormick wondered about that decision. I recall a number of candidates declared their interest in the Marquette position including Denny Crum, Digger Phelps, and Luigi Carnesecca among others. History might have been written rather differently had we gone in a different direction in 1977.
Couldn't agree more. Hank was definitely a class act and very nice guy. Met him a few times during my time at Marquette and he was always great to talk with. I think most people on this board would agree he could certainly coach, look at his record with the Freshmen teams, but couldn't get the talent as the head coach. Too bad he wasn't hired on at St. Louis or somewhere like that so MU wouldn't have been in the position they were in when Al retired.
Quote from: Terror Skink on June 05, 2013, 12:07:13 PM
It's very difficult for a school to replace a legend from someone "outside the family." If they hire an outsider and it fails, the AD gets lambasted and turmoil ensues. If the insider fails, the AD shrugs their shoulders and says "hey, he just didn't have it."
So is this why Buzz was hired? ::)
Keefe
Exactly correct on the whole Hank point. In my heart I believe Al's endorsement was 95% out of being loyal and 5% he knew Hank would not outshine him with future success. Al loved MU, his job and his legacy. If MU would had hired someone else there was outside chance that guy could have continued or built on Al's success. Al was like most eccentric, successful guys and his legacy is still being talked about almost 40 years later. He loved that.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 04, 2013, 08:04:42 PM
Where's Stew Morrill?
It's bleecher, remember it isn't supposed to matter. ;)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 05, 2013, 09:58:59 PM
It's bleecher, remember it isn't supposed to matter. ;)
;)
Hank has a 71.6% winning percentage over six seasons. It is really hard to call him a failure. More like it is hard to follow a legend. Second all-time to Al. Jesus would be an underachiever to Al.
Hank goes to the NCAA tournament 5 out of 6 times and the year he goes to the NIT wasnt even his worst year as he still made 20 wins as opposed to the 18-9 and 19-10 tournament teams. So I fail to see why he's thought of as a failure. Sure he's not a legend or anything but saying he failed is pretty harsh.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on June 06, 2013, 09:15:58 AM
Hank goes to the NCAA tournament 5 out of 6 times and the year he goes to the NIT wasnt even his worst year as he still made 20 wins as opposed to the 18-9 and 19-10 tournament teams. So I fail to see why he's thought of as a failure. Sure he's not a legend or anything but saying he failed is pretty harsh.
Marquette was a dominant national power when Hank took over. We were no longer in that position by the time he left. As Goose mentioned, Hank was not the recruiter that Al was. Al got the best talent in America. Under Hank, we were in the conversation in his early years. But we just missed on several Blue Chippers. Instead of signing the Bowies and Mcrays we were signing the Lazarettis and Schlundts. Hank inherited the defending national champion from Al. He turned over an unranked program to Majerus. If not failure then how should one characterize so precipitous a decline in power and prestige in so short a period of time?
The sun never set on the British Empire under Victoria. Elizabeth handed over the British Crown Colony of Hong Kong to Beijing. The Royal Navy once ruled the waves and Rule Britannia was much more than a stirring ballad. The RN now has just 12 effective surface combatants.
I don't know where you're going with the British navy thing. But in my opinion Hank did well. Clearly wasnt the legend that Al was but if you take Hank's record an put him at any other juncture of our program (outside of right now) wed all agree he was a success but instead we say failure because of who came before him.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on June 06, 2013, 02:33:42 PM
I don't know where you're going with the British navy thing. But in my opinion Hank did well. Clearly wasnt the legend that Al was but if you take Hank's record an put him at any other juncture of our program (outside of right now) wed all agree he was a success but instead we say failure because of who came before him.
End of Empire, mate.
As for Hank, you keep citing his record. But the bottom line is he inherited the defending National Champion and took the program straight out of national prominence.
Every year Al signed a couple Blue Chippers. We were the UNC to UCLA's Duke. We were one of the THREE BEST basketball programs in this great republic. We knew there was a problem when we were always on the short list of the Blue Chips but they were signing elsewhere. Instead of signing Sam Bowie we signed Marc Marotta. Instead of signing the McRay brothers we signed Schlundt and Lazaretti. By the end of Hank's tenure we were no longer on the short list of any Blue Chips. And we were also out of the rankings.
End of Empire, lad.
Keefe
100% correct. For whatever reason it is taboo to make honest comments on the Hank era. Not a bad word can be said about the person and that is a rarity in life. That said our recruiting prowess and place in NCAA programs was lost in very quick order. I stick with my comment that it did not break Al's heart to see us fall into a large group of programs. Who knows what happens if someone outside of program was picked, but we do know the history of what did happen.
We were second best program for a decade and one could argue changed college basketball more than any program during that decade. The program was cool, hated and most of all respected by anyone that was fan of the game. Replacing Al was second most difficult hire, after Lombardi, in state sports history. All I know is Al is still talked about 36 years after he retired which to me puts the man in lofty company.
Keefe the whole lad and mate thing kinda put me off from your last comment. But essentially what I'm saying is .72 winning percentage at MU and made the ncaa tournament 5/6 times isn't shabby heck 5/6 is better than Crean at 5/9, Deane at 2/5 or O'Neil at 2/5 and is better than Eddie Hickey 2/6 or Jack Nagle 1/5. I'm not gonna sit here and say he was consistent with where we were, he was a downgrade no doubt but every coach's performance except Buzz's so far we would call a downgrade from Al (9/13 but really 10/13). I guess I'm only arguing that everybody screams failure because of who he was replacing as opposed to looking at our overall history and realizing he's responsible for a nice little chunk. I agree wholeheartedly that he wasn't the right hire to keep us elite but by no means was he a complete flop like people make him out to be.
You also keep mentioning that he never got any Blue chip recruits... I'm going to play the Doc Rivers card.
I never said Hank was an outright failure. But he certainly did not hold serve. There were other more qualified candidates available. Hell, do I dare suggest Digger would have been a better hire? Lou Carnesecca would have been an interesting choice, too.
Quote from: keefe on June 06, 2013, 06:27:47 PM
I never said Hank was an outright failure. But he certainly did not hold serve. There were other more qualified candidates available. Hell, do I dare suggest Digger would have been a better hire? Lou Carnesecca would have been an interesting choice, too.
"If not failure then how should one characterize so precipitous a decline in power and prestige in so short a period of time?" -keefe
I can't believe Digger wouldve been interested I thought he hated Marquette. But Carnesecca would've been very interesting.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on June 06, 2013, 07:04:37 PM
"If not failure then how should one characterize so precipitous a decline in power and prestige in so short a period of time?" -keefe
I can't believe Digger wouldve been interested I thought he hated Marquette. But Carnesecca would've been very interesting.
Isn't that what is known as a rhetorical question?
And yes, Digger was extremely interested in the Marquette job. Some say his antipathy for MU stems from his not getting the job.
Hank did sign Rivers, Moore, Johnson & Johnson, Trotter, and Wilson. Unfortunately, Moore didn't pan out and he never did sign a quality big, to include forwards. That was his Achilles Heel. And Marquette slid into irrelevance as a consequence.
In all fairness, Hank did sign our last McDonald's All-American recruit.
As someone who was just getting into following MU basketball around the time Hank took over for Al, everyone knew the program was in decline. Despite recruiting Doc...despite the NCAA tournament appearances...it was evident. They didn't advance in the NCAA tournament. They were losing games they were winning just a few years earlier.
That being said, it is some serious Monday Morning Quarterbacking to suggest that they shouldn't have hired Hank. My goodness would Al and his crew have had a fit had they hired Digger. IMO the much bigger wrong was hiring Rick after Hank. That is when they should have switched gears and gone outside the program.
And we have said this before, but getting bad in the early to mid 80s, when college basketball was on a serious upswing, hamstrung the program for 20 years.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on June 06, 2013, 04:52:29 PM
Keefe the whole lad and mate thing kinda put me off from your last comment. But essentially what I'm saying is .72 winning percentage at MU and made the ncaa tournament 5/6 times isn't shabby heck 5/6 is better than Crean at 5/9, Deane at 2/5 or O'Neil at 2/5 and is better than Eddie Hickey 2/6 or Jack Nagle 1/5. I'm not gonna sit here and say he was consistent with where we were, he was a downgrade no doubt but every coach's performance except Buzz's so far we would call a downgrade from Al (9/13 but really 10/13). I guess I'm only arguing that everybody screams failure because of who he was replacing as opposed to looking at our overall history and realizing he's responsible for a nice little chunk. I agree wholeheartedly that he wasn't the right hire to keep us elite but by no means was he a complete flop like people make him out to be.
The facts:
1) We were defending national champions when we hired Hank.
2) He was at the helm of the single worst game in MU history -- the debacle in 1978 against Miami of Ohio. Sorry, but AL never would have lost that game. Never, ever never.
3) When Majerus replaced Hank, the program was on a downward spiral that was not reversed until KO arrived.
Hank wasn't the only problem. The university cheaped out in basketball. The world changed and the Big East was formed. Studs that had five colleges to choose from suddenly had 40 to 50 because schools like Marquette proved you did not have to be a large state school to win at basketball. And the SEC quit discriminating against African American ball players.
Still, the lack of vision in the late 1970s and early 1980s was problematic. We were good and should have stayed good. We weren't and there was a reason for it -- the lack of a charismatic coach.
Quote from: Terror Skink on June 06, 2013, 08:35:34 PM
That being said, it is some serious Monday Morning Quarterbacking to suggest that they shouldn't have hired Hank. My goodness would Al and his crew have had a fit had they hired Digger. IMO the much bigger wrong was hiring Rick after Hank. That is when they should have switched gears and gone outside the program.
Sorry Terror, that's just not accurate. As someone who was on campus at the time, we knew Hank would not be Al.
We had the example of Phil Bengston succeeding Vince Lombardi.
We saw when John Wooden retired that UCLA couldn't keep up.
Even Joe B. Hall (thankfully) wasn't Adolph Rupp.
Digger was not coming to Marquette. But imagine what the 1980s would have been like if Denny Crum did!
Quote from: dgies9156 on June 07, 2013, 12:27:45 PM
Sorry Terror, that's just not accurate. As someone who was on campus at the time, we knew Hank would not be Al.
We had the example of Phil Bengston succeeding Vince Lombardi.
We saw when John Wooden retired that UCLA couldn't keep up.
Even Joe B. Hall (thankfully) wasn't Adolph Rupp.
Digger was not coming to Marquette. But imagine what the 1980s would have been like if Denny Crum did!
I think you are mistaking what I said. I never said that Hank would equal Al. Just that it would have been a very difficult task to hire someone other than Hank.
And how sure are we that Crum would have accepted the job? He had already been to two Final Fours at Louisville by the time Al retired.
Quote from: Terror Skink on June 07, 2013, 01:13:06 PM
And how sure are we that Crum would have accepted the job? He had already been to two Final Fours at Louisville by the time Al retired.
I am not the most connected with Marquette basketball and I will always qualify comments as being opinion. But my wife was part of the program and through her network I learned years later that Crum and MU had an agreement in place in the late 70's. Evidently Crum wasn't happy with UL and MU knew that a change was warranted. MU dawdled, I believe it was financial, and Louisville stepped up. Cum did get a huge raise from UL when he signed an extension in 1980. So yes, Denny Crum was ready to take the Marquette job.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on June 06, 2013, 04:52:29 PM
Keefe the whole lad and mate thing kinda put me off from your last comment.
It wasn't a personal slight. You asked about my RN analogy. The quotes are from Noel Coward.
The best benefit of living in London is the theatre. We made it to Covent Garden as often as life would permit.
Quote from: keefe on June 07, 2013, 01:21:41 PM
I am not the most connected with Marquette basketball and I will always qualify comments as being opinion. But my wife was part of the program and through her network I learned years later that Crum and MU had an agreement in place in the late 70's. Evidently Crum wasn't happy with UL and MU knew that a change was warranted. MU dawdled, I believe it was financial, and Louisville stepped up. Cum did get a huge raise from UL when he signed an extension in 1980. So yes, Denny Crum was ready to take the Marquette job.
Hey, that's better info than I have. (wikipedia)
Quote from: Terror Skink on June 07, 2013, 01:32:55 PM
Hey, that's better info than I have. (wikipedia)
Imagine how different the Reagan Era would have been at Marquette had Crum been hired. People who focus on the pennies rarely see the dollars.
Quote from: keefe on June 07, 2013, 01:27:05 PM
It wasn't a personal slight. You asked about my RN analogy. The quotes are from Noel Coward.
The best benefit of living in London is the theatre. We made it to Covent Garden as often as life would permit.
I see I thought you were just trying to be a dick and chose that method because I'm a bagpiper
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on June 08, 2013, 09:50:09 PM
I see I thought you were just trying to be a dick and chose that method because I'm a bagpiper
No way! It's a lament from Noel Coward. Coward felt the RN was England and England was the RN. In a way he was not wrong.
As for the pipes my Gram is from Edinburgh and I grew up hearing Scotland the Brave and Blue Bonnet. I hear there are some folks on another isle who also play the pipes... Either way it is truly God's Own Voice.
"The Irish gave the bagpipes to the Scots as a joke, but the Scots haven't seen the joke yet." - Oliver Herford
"Some men there are love not a gaping pig, some that are mad if they behold a cat, and others when the bagpipe sings I the nose cannot contain their urine." - William Shakespeare