The official told him "The ball knocked him down". Un F'n real.
I didn't know they switched in a medicine ball.
Didn't see the play...was the ball at Davante's feet? Only thing that would make sense for the ref to say that.
Quote from: muguru on January 19, 2013, 09:09:04 PM
The official told him "The ball knocked him down". Un F'n real.
The 280 lb. ball, btw.
The ref is essentially saying he flopped. Its still a dick thing to say.
Rubles literally flew into him. Inexcusable.
Fact 1: The refs blew the call.
Fact 2: It didn't cost us the game.
No flop. He got hit pretty hard chest to chest. Refs didn't see it apparently.
Quote from: MU82 on January 19, 2013, 09:16:20 PM
Fact 1: The refs blew the call.
Fact 2: It didn't cost us the game.
It didnt cost us the game but it had the potential to put MU up two points...which by the time the game ended, we were down by...two points.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 19, 2013, 09:15:00 PM
Rubles literally flew into him. Inexcusable.
Even some Bearcat posters mentioned that Rubles flew out at him and UC lucked out not getting called on it.
Buzz has all the rights to be upset...officiating was horrible tonight, and while I won't say it cost us the game, it certainly aided Cincy.
Quote from: GoldenZebra on January 19, 2013, 09:17:51 PM
It didnt cost us the game but it had the potential to put MU up two points...which by the time the game ended, we were down by...two points.
All true, but we also missed a mountain of free throws and regular shots during the game which could have made that play moot.
I understand why some might want to blame the refs, and this play in particular, but there were lots and lots and lots of plays in that game that one could say made the difference.
For instance, we're up 3 in OT and Mayo looks like he has a steal and dunk for a 5-pt lead. But he doesn't quite make the steal, we foul and it's a 1-point game.
Another instance: Gardner overthrew a pass that, if accurate, would have given us a 2-on-1 break. I don't think the ref made Gardner do that.
And as Chicos said, lots of missed FTs.
Probably another dozen difference-making plays I could think of off the top of my head.
Stuff happens. Very, very, VERY rarely is it the ref's fault.
What about the Jamil box-out call?
Where was the foul on that?
Our defense was poor.
Our FT shooting was substandard.
We dug ourselves to deep a hole.
Quote from: MU82 on January 19, 2013, 09:21:18 PM
I understand why some might want to blame the refs, and this play in particular, but there were lots and lots and lots of plays in that game that one could say made the difference.
For instance, we're up 3 in OT and Mayo looks like he has a steal and dunk for a 5-pt lead. But he doesn't quite make the steal, we foul and it's a 1-point game.
Another instance: Gardner overthrew a pass that, if accurate, would have given us a 2-on-1 break. I don't think the ref made Gardner do that.
And as Chicos said, lots of missed FTs.
Probably another dozen difference-making plays I could think of off the top of my head.
Stuff happens. Very, very, VERY rarely is it the ref's fault.
I thought that 'almost' steal in the OT was absolutely huge. Mayo would have had a breakaway and we would have led b 5. In the end, our free throw shooting kept us alive. But Cincy was simply outstanding from the line all night.
Quote from: MU82 on January 19, 2013, 09:16:20 PM
Fact 1: The refs blew the call.
Fact 2: It didn't cost us the game.
It very well could have cost us the game...as could about a dozen or two different things tonight, but that was certainly one of them.
Perhaps Buzz's next question should have been where the cannonball came from.
Just wanted to add Justin Jackson's 'injured wrist' to the list of events.
"The refs didn't cost us the game" is a big stinking pile of coach speak. Of course officials can cost a team a game--just like the other plays in the game. If you ever played a sport, at any level, and you got jobbed by a call, there are two givens: 1. you will never forget the play and the call; and, 2. you will never say the refs cannot cost us a game.
I don't feel like watching the game again but does anyone remember when Gardner got fouled and they gave the guy his first foul instead of fouling the other guy out when the guy with no fouls didn't even touch him. I thought that was a cheap call.
Quote from: MARQ_13 on January 19, 2013, 09:56:51 PM
I don't feel like watching the game again but does anyone remember when Gardner got fouled and they gave the guy his first foul instead of fouling the other guy out when the guy with no fouls didn't even touch him. I thought that was a cheap call.
It was when Blue launched a 3, and Gardner got the board and was going for a shot when #33 got his arm all around Gardner, and they gave the guy (Rubles I think) who was standing with his arms in the air not even touching Gardner the foul. Announcers even said it was a foul on#33 and NOT Rubles. Officials were near the area so they clearly saw the foul committed by 33.
there are always a ton of plays you could have made to win a game. but that doesnt mean that the refs didnt totally blow it then act like total cocks about afterwards, evidently.
In life, we control what we can.
Marquette could have played better defense on Kilpatrick on the final play.
Gardner could have avoided throwing the ball out of bounds, a play that cost Marquette a 2-on-1 break.
Marquette could have limited Cincinnati to fewer than 14 offensive rebounds.
Jamil, Blue and others could have avoided committing fouls 40 feet away from the basket.
Marquette could have made a 3-pointer in the first half instead of going 0-for-9.
Players not named Davante could make more free throws.
And so on and so on.
Of course, bad officiating impacts a game. I never said otherwise. If Buzz accurately relayed what that ref said about that should-have-been foul call, that ref was a jerk and should be censured by the league. But every single game will have missed calls and most games will have missed calls in huge situations. We can't control those as fans and the players can't control those on the court.
What the players can control are situations such as those stated above. It's a crutch and a cop-out to blame losses on the refs when any of 5 or 10 or 20 or 30 things players or coaches could have done better would have had as much impact if not more.
One more thing. Out of bounds play, 1 second on shot clock. Basically gave cincy a timeout and gave them the chance to set something up. Whether they can do that isn't what irritated me, it was the announcer complaining because it gave MU a chance to set their defense. What? Also, it's been brought up here but Marquette was not in a box and 1! There was no box! As bad as the officials were, the announcers were worse. I guess that's what happens when there are so many games on tv but man we got stuck with the jv team tonight in the booth.
Quote from: MARQ_13 on January 19, 2013, 09:56:51 PM
I don't feel like watching the game again but does anyone remember when Gardner got fouled and they gave the guy his first foul instead of fouling the other guy out when the guy with no fouls didn't even touch him. I thought that was a cheap call.
and 33 was in the game to block Vander's layup just minutes later. Make the correct call and we have antra 2 points
Quote from: Gato78 on January 19, 2013, 09:55:21 PM
"The refs didn't cost us the game" is a big stinking pile of coach speak. Of course officials can cost a team a game--just like the other plays in the game. If you ever played a sport, at any level, and you got jobbed by a call, there are two givens: 1. you will never forget the play and the call; and, 2. you will never say the refs cannot cost us a game.
Yes, of course it does, but....
Problem with that is fans automatically conclude the best possible outcome would have happened, and no one knows if it would have. Was DG fouled on that play...yes. Would he have made his FT's? We don't know. Too much focus on one play or one foul when it is a 40 minute game (45 in this case), where fouls are missed all game long.
The other problem is that fans tend to notice that their team got "jobbed" but almost universally don't find a foul on the other side to be worthy of "jobbed" caliber even though there are plenty of bad calls all the way around. Ever notice it's always "we got jobbed" and never "we got jobbed but they did too".
Make more than 13 points in a half, we win. Shoot better than 32% from the field, we win. Shoot better than 67.7% from the stripe, we win.
We got called for 24 fouls. UC for 27. We had our chances, we started out slow again, we need to get over that and not let any one call dictate an outcome.
Bad officiating goes hand in hand with close games. Always 50-50 calls. Take a look at the butler game for example. Maybe it's just me but I thought jones pushed off the big guy at the end to get the steal and then hit the game winner.
Refs didn't cost MU this game. MU didn't stop the one guy that everyone knew was going to take the last shot. In a way, it reminds me of that Washington game in the tourney except where MU blew the big lead. You knew Pondexter was going to get the ball and get a high percentage shot just like Kilpatrick did.
That was the only really blatantly bad call that went against MU. There were a lot of 50-50 calls that went against MU (Jamil fouling out), but that is to be expected in a road game and there is no point in getting upset about it. If MU had hit its free throws and/or been able to make anything in the first half, MU wins. It WAS a terrible call, but that stuff happens.
I thought the refs allowed Cincy to continuously push MU in the back, when Cucny was dominating the offensive boards at the start of the game. The game got called a little closer after the double technical. One of the plays that sticks in my mind that had nothing to do with refs was when MU first got the game down to 7 Lockett was breaking to his basket all by himself for what looked like it would be a sure basket, but the pass to him hit the rim and never got to him. Ending up being a 3 pointer on the other end.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 19, 2013, 10:43:29 PM
Yes, of course it does, but....
Problem with that is fans automatically conclude the best possible outcome would have happened, and no one knows if it would have. Was DG fouled on that play...yes. Would he have made his FT's? We don't know. Too much focus on one play or one foul when it is a 40 minute game (45 in this case), where fouls are missed all game long.
The other problem is that fans tend to notice that their team got "jobbed" but almost universally don't find a foul on the other side to be worthy of "jobbed" caliber even though there are plenty of bad calls all the way around. Ever notice it's always "we got jobbed" and never "we got jobbed but they did too".
Make more than 13 points in a half, we win. Shoot better than 32% from the field, we win. Shoot better than 67.7% from the stripe, we win.
We got called for 24 fouls. UC for 27. We had our chances, we started out slow again, we need to get over that and not let any one call dictate an outcome.
Excellent point, Chicos.
There was one first-half play in particular where Cincy got totally jobbed. Cincy was on offense. Jamil blatantly, obviously shoved Jackson, who then collided with Derrick. Jackson was called for setting a moving screen. Jackson and Cronin objected to no avail (of course). It was Jackson's third foul and he eventually fouled out; he was limited to 16 minutes and was one of three Cincy bigs in foul trouble throughout.
Just another example of how it's silly and loser-ish to focus on one call in any game.
That is like saying that Kilpatrick's game winner wasn't really the game winner because there were so many other shots that went in during the game. A stinking pile of coach speak. End of game situations determine winners and losers and officials are a part of that equation. The officials blown call under that microscope is as big as a missed free throw or a made three at the buzzer. Bad calls can determine outcomes.
Quote from: Gato78 on January 20, 2013, 10:13:26 AM
That is like saying that Kilpatrick's game winner wasn't really the game winner because there were so many other shots that went in during the game. A stinking pile of coach speak. End of game situations determine winners and losers and officials are a part of that equation. The officials blown call under that microscope is as big as a missed free throw or a made three at the buzzer. Bad calls can determine outcomes.
OK, let's say that was the worst call in the history of basketball. We
still survived it to tie the game. We
still had the outcome in our own control. But then, in crunch time, we couldn't stop their guy -- all of a sudden, we step aside and let him get the ball after denying him for most of the second half, then we let him waltz right into the lane.
STOP BLAMING THINGS THAT THE PLAYERS AND COACHES CAN'T CONTROL AND WORRY ABOUT THE THINGS THAT CAN BE CONTROLLED.
Only losers blame the refs.
So I guess you are calling me a loser because I was making the point that officials blown calls can be just as important as made or missed shots. Either you are one POd dude or you have a serious problem with reading comprehension. My guess is you would have hated Al McGuire,
see, Speech in Baton Rouge, 1977 about officials and back room NCAA deals.
Quote from: MU82 on January 20, 2013, 10:21:25 AM
STOP BLAMING THINGS THAT THE PLAYERS AND COACHES CAN'T CONTROL AND WORRY ABOUT THE THINGS THAT CAN BE CONTROLLED.
Only losers blame the refs.
Quote from: Gato78 on January 20, 2013, 10:46:03 AM
So I guess you are calling me a loser because I was making the point that officials blown calls can be just as important as made or missed shots. Either you are one POd dude or you have a serious problem with reading comprehension. My guess is you would have hated Al McGuire, see, Speech in Baton Rouge, 1977 about officials and back room NCAA deals.
Just as a point of clarity, that speech, delivered by Al, was in Oklahoma City after the Warriors defeated a pesky Kansas State team.
Look I agree that the team could have played a lot better and refs all make bad calls but
Why have three refs when all they come up with the theory that a 3pound ball knocked down a 290lb player?
Quote from: Gato78 on January 20, 2013, 10:13:26 AM
That is like saying that Kilpatrick's game winner wasn't really the game winner because there were so many other shots that went in during the game. A stinking pile of coach speak. End of game situations determine winners and losers and officials are a part of that equation. The officials blown call under that microscope is as big as a missed free throw or a made three at the buzzer. Bad calls can determine outcomes.
Perfectly stated. To say, for example, that the refs who gave Seattle a game winning touchdown on what was an obvious game ending interception didn't decide the outcome of that game is total BS.
No team has ever played the perfect, mistake free game. So you can always look backwards. But when games come down to the last possession, players, coaches and/or officials can decide the outcome.
I'm going to admit right now that I shouldn't have used the word "loser." It wasn't nice, it didn't advance the discussion and it was dopey on my part.
But I still maintain that refs rarely, rarely, rarely "cost" a team a game. They are just one of the many variables that influence outcomes of games. It wasn't the refs who went 0-for-9 from 3-point land to put MU in a first-half hole and it wasn't the refs who then made some treys in the second half to get us back into the game.
Fixating on the refs solves nothing. And, as other posters have said, we don't seem to fixate on the refs when we get the calls. Bad calls and good calls come and go every single game. Stop Kilpatrick and we have a chance to beat Cincy. Hit a 3 at the regulation buzzer against UConn and we have a chance to win that game. Overcome a defensive lapse at the end of regulation by playing well against Pitt in OT and we have a chance to win that game. There were good and bad calls in crunch time in each of those games, but ultimately the players and coaches decide them. In the latter two instances, Marquette took control and won; against Cincy, Marquette couldn't take control and lost.
That's all I'm saying. I shouldn't have stooped to name-calling and I won't do so again.
My bad. A John Blutarsky moment.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 20, 2013, 11:47:03 AM
Just as a point of clarity, that speech, delivered by Al, was in Oklahoma City after the Warriors defeated a pesky Kansas State team.
There have been games where I have felt poor officiating was a major contributing factor to the outcome. Last night wasn't one of them. Yup, the call that sent Gardner to the floor was really bad. IMO, it wasn't the deciding factor. MU's play in the first half was.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 19, 2013, 10:43:29 PM
...We had our chances, we started out slow again, we need to get over that...
Start Gardner and J. Wilson to generate some offense at the beginning of games. Otule and Anderson should come off the bench to give those guys a breather when needed. And earlier, more frequent appearances by Steve Taylor would help the offense, too.
Quote from: WarriorHal on January 20, 2013, 02:06:53 PM
Start Gardner and J. Wilson to generate some offense at the beginning of games. Otule and Anderson should come off the bench to give those guys a breather when needed. And earlier, more frequent appearances by Steve Taylor would help the offense, too.
I agree that Jamil should start, but Otule will start as long as he's here. He gives us a much better chance to win the tip.
Quote from: TrueBlueAndGold on January 20, 2013, 02:12:07 PM
I agree that Jamil should start, but Otule will start as long as he's here. He gives us a much better chance to win the tip.
Yeah ... Buzz would have to let Lockett take the opening tip if DG starts!
The referee performance is one of many facets of the game. Offense, defense, coaching, crowd, bench, shooting, defending, situational strategy, etc. To compartmentalize it and say just one facet is to blame is naive...at the same time to ignore one facet for criticism is also naive.
In the past , we have had threads on one facet...for the sake of a strategy discussion or other puts and takes. Fair game. We also dwell on officiating. These are paid professionals like coaches who influence games. They could blow their whistle every time down the floor in reality on some technicality or not. So, they are also fair game.
Frankly, yesterday's game was not an easy game to call. It was a slugfest. I thought they did a job of controlling the physicality of the game....yet they clearly made some really bad calls on both sides. The Bearcat fans were just as upset...and claimed the Xavier game bias follows them. Welcome to fan hood.
For Marquette, the Gardner non-call was plain horrible, and worse he on two occasions took two hard hits that could have caused injury. The Jamil call was very questionable. The bigger issue for me was during the time out after Jamil's call, Buzz was going after the officials pretty good...but he walked away three separate times from the official and the official kept following him...in fact he ended up in the middle of the MU huddle. To me that is unprofessional and shows a ref looking for a fight. Buzz didn't back down and in fact got a couple of 50/50s calls right after. Refs with rabbit ears let the coaches, crowd and players get to them...and that is what we saw yesterday: not a very confident crew on the big stage who kept going to the replay, prolonged coach huddles, and letting conversations linger too long.
Late in the NFC title game, the Falcons were driving and were the beneficiaries of a very questionable call. The Atlanta receiver juggled the ball going down and it appeared the ball might have hit the ground before he had control. It was called a catch on the field but because video was inconclusive, the call was upheld, giving the Falcons a first down inside the red zone. Harbaugh was livid and I'm sure that every 49ers fan in America was howling. I thought it was an OK call, but I wasn't emotionally invested in the game.
Had the 49ers lost the game by 3, many of their fans would have blamed the refs. It didn't matter that their kicker missed a 38-yard field goal or that their receiver fumbled the ball inside the 1. All that they would have remembered was the horrible call.
But the 49ers were determined to not let a call beat them. They stopped the Falcons on first, second, third and fourth downs to win the game.
So what you had was a team believing it was victimized by a terrible call but nonetheless taking matters into its own hands and winning the game despite the call.
That's what I'm talking about. Control what you can. Make the plays. Win the game.