MUScoop

Let's assume a 12-team league, so vote for 5 teams.

FYI, Charlotte is starting a football program. It begins play in the lower division next fall and then moves to CUSA -- if there still is a CUSA -- for the 2015 season. As much as I'd love Charlotte in Marquette's league because it would mean I'd get to see them play in my new home state, it ain't gonna happen. Nor should it.

Quote from: MU82 on December 13, 2012, 09:24:12 AM
FYI, Charlotte is starting a football program. It begins play in the lower division next fall and then moves to CUSA -- if there still is a CUSA -- for the 2015 season. As much as I'd love Charlotte in Marquette's league because it would mean I'd get to see them play in my new home state, it ain't gonna happen. Nor should it.

Nice call, removed.

Quote from: PTM on December 13, 2012, 09:22:13 AM
Let's assume a 12-team league, so vote for 5 teams.

Why assume a 12 team league?  I would much prefer a 10 or 11 team league so we could play a full round robin and actually crown a champion.

Also, surprised by the early love for Creighton.  I would love to see MU play the Jays on a regular basis.

Picked Butler, Xavier, St. Louis, Gonzaga and Creighton.
Actually like VCU over St. Louis, but the latter provides a bit more of a geographical balance and puts the conference in another large market.

From there, I'd set two divisions, with home-and-home games against division rivals and one game against each member of the other division, for 16 conference games in all. Or could create a rotating system with home-and-homes with other division opponents once every three years for an 18-game schedule.

East
Georgetown
Villanova
St. John's
Providence
Seton Hall
Xavier

West
Marquette
DePaul
Butler
St. Louis
Creighton
Gonzaga

Yeah, Big East East and Big East West sound silly (and could be improved upon), but at least it's not Legends and Leaders.

Quote from: Husker4MU on December 13, 2012, 09:28:24 AM
Why assume a 12 team league?  I would much prefer a 10 or 11 team league so we could play a full round robin and actually crown a champion.

Also, surprised by the early love for Creighton.  I would love to see MU play the Jays on a regular basis.

Honestly, because there's five schools I'd like to add. Didn't want to leave one out.

Road trips to DePaul, Butler, SLU, Dayton and Creighton would be delightful.

Xavier is a no brainer.
I'd invite ND first, if they decline then take Butler.
St. Louis vs Dayton is a toss up. If Xavier is already in the league I'd lean St. Louis (new market).
Cap it at 10.
Invite UConn, Memphis and UMass, but hey have to dissolve their football programs to join.

With ND possibly interested, I'd invite them too.  As much as many hate Domers, their fan base brings a TON of eyes with the "Subway Alumni" and possibly extra exposure for a new league.

Every rational thinking fan would vote ND, so there was no reason not to include them.

I start by offering UConn, Cincy, USF, Temple, and Memphis the opportunity to stay for all sports except football. They can do whatever they like with their football programs, but I have to think staying would be a better option for them than joining C-USA, the MAC, or trying to make that unsightly Amalgamation Conference with ECU, SMU, and Tulane, among others.

After those 5 get their chance, you invite to get up to at most 16. If all five say yes, you invite three. If some say no, you add going down this list. Also, if you add Gonzaga, you must add a second western team. Not necessarily a travel partner, but a second destination so when East Coast teams have to go west, it's one trip that encompasses more than one game.

1) Xavier
2) Butler
3) Virginia Commonwealth
4) Gonzaga
5) Creighton or other western team (St. Mary's, BYU, Wichita State)
6) St. Louis
7) Dayton
8) UMass (They can park football)

Also, if Notre Dame wants in, they automatically get a spot. Bump everyone down one if it means we can bring the Irish back. But they aren't such a priority that you wait on it. They surprise us and say yes immediately, we take them. They say no as expected, move on without a second throught.

Quote from: PTM on December 13, 2012, 09:31:33 AM
Road trips to DePaul, Butler, SLU, Dayton and Creighton would be delightful.

Dayton? Really?
For the life of me, I can't figure why some see Dayton as more attractive than Gonzaga. In every important measure - other than distance, which I don't see as being all that important - Gonzaga is better. Better team. Better national profile. Better coach. Better market (in that Gonzaga is the Catholic program in the Pacific Northwest).

Quote from: lurch91 on December 13, 2012, 09:34:21 AM
With ND possibly interested, I'd invite them too.  As much as many hate Domers, their fan base brings a TON of eyes with the "Subway Alumni" and possibly extra exposure for a new league.

Wait, is ND possibly interested?  Why would they leave the acc for this. If they are leaving the acc they would go to the big 10

Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2012, 09:36:48 AM
Dayton? Really?
For the life of me, I can't figure why some see Dayton as more attractive than Gonzaga. In every important measure - other than distance, which I don't see as being all that important - Gonzaga is better. Better team. Better national profile. Better coach. Better market (in that Gonzaga is the Catholic program in the Pacific Northwest).

I don't think Gonzaga is realistic without adding more Westies. I would love to play Gonzaga every year if every sport didn't have to trudge out there. It's a five hour flight according to Priceline.

Quote from: hairyworthen on December 13, 2012, 09:40:24 AM
Wait, is ND possibly interested?  Why would they leave the acc for this. If they are leaving the acc they would go to the big 10

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/16971737-419/depaul-among-7-catholic-schools-set-for-big-east-exodus.html

Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2012, 09:36:48 AM
Dayton? Really?
For the life of me, I can't figure why some see Dayton as more attractive than Gonzaga. In every important measure - other than distance, which I don't see as being all that important - Gonzaga is better. Better team. Better national profile. Better coach. Better market (in that Gonzaga is the Catholic program in the Pacific Northwest).

It might not be for Men's Basketball, but what about Women's Basketball, M & W Soccer, Volleyball, Track and Cross Country, M & W Tennis, etc.?  The additional travel costs for those sports isn't insignificant.

Also, Dayton is the 63rd ranked TV market, while Spokane is 73rd.

Quote from: slack00 on December 13, 2012, 09:44:20 AM
It might not be for Men's Basketball, but what about Women's Basketball, M & W Soccer, Volleyball, Track and Cross Country, M & W Tennis, etc.?  The additional travel costs for those sports isn't insignificant.

Also, Dayton is the 63rd ranked TV market, while Spokane is 73rd.

But how many people are gonna tune in to NBC sports network to watch Dayton v Georgetown?  Then ask the same question for Gonzaga v Georgetown?

Quote from: PTM on December 13, 2012, 09:40:55 AM
I don't think Gonzaga is realistic without adding more Westies. I would love to play Gonzaga every year if every sport didn't have to trudge out there. It's a five hour flight according to Priceline.

Priceline is crazy. I've flown O'Hare to Seattle several times, and it's about four hours. Milwaukee to Spokane is a shorter flight.
The benefits of Gonzaga (over say, Dayton) outweigh a couple extra hours in the air once a year.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2012, 09:36:41 AM
I start by offering UConn, Cincy, USF, Temple, and Memphis the opportunity to stay for all sports except football. They can do whatever they like with their football programs, but I have to think staying would be a better option for them than joining C-USA, the MAC, or trying to make that unsightly Amalgamation Conference with ECU, SMU, and Tulane, among others.

After those 5 get their chance, you invite to get up to at most 16. If all five say yes, you invite three. If some say no, you add going down this list. Also, if you add Gonzaga, you must add a second western team. Not necessarily a travel partner, but a second destination so when East Coast teams have to go west, it's one trip that encompasses more than one gam

Also, if Notre Dame wants in, they automatically get a spot. Bump everyone down one if it means we can bring the Irish back. But they aren't such a priority that you wait on it. They surprise us and say yes immediately, we take them. They say no as expected, move on without a second throught.

Uconn, Cincy, Memphis, USF and Temple only if they drop football as a sport which they won't. Why would you want to leave a conference because it is unstable only to start a conference that is immediately unstable?   Uconn, and Cincy are bolting in a second if they get an invite from one of the major conferences.  The major conferences are not finished yet until they all get 16. There are many more dominoes to fall.

Guys, why does Gonzaga have to be an all-sports member? Let them join for basketball only and keep their other sports in the WCC or wherever. As long as we have 10-12 core schools that aren't going anywhere (C7 + Xavier, Butler, VCU for example) we can get by with allowing them in strictly for what they bring on the hardwood.

Besides the fact that VCU is a popular name because of Shaka Smart and their Final Four run, if I'm not mistaken, they've made substantial investments into the program (not least of which is Smart's contract), and its really become a focus.  That sort of attitude is important to the success of a conference like this.

Quote from: slack00 on December 13, 2012, 09:44:20 AM
It might not be for Men's Basketball, but what about Women's Basketball, M & W Soccer, Volleyball, Track and Cross Country, M & W Tennis, etc.?  The additional travel costs for those sports isn't insignificant.

Also, Dayton is the 63rd ranked TV market, while Spokane is 73rd.

Gonzaga's brand extends well beyond Spokane (see yesterday's post about Gonzaga's merchandise sales, which are higher than all but two C7 programs, including Marquette, and all A-10 programs). And Gonzaga puts the conference (and its network partners) in the Pacific Northwest market and gives them option for late-night games.
Dayton's brand does not extend beyond Dayton.

If travel times/costs for the other sports mattered at all, Marquette would have never left the MCC. The extra cost of a flight to Spokane vs a flight to Dayton is not that significant, not when you consider the other benefits of having the Zags.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2012, 09:49:30 AM
Guys, why does Gonzaga have to be an all-sports member? Let them join for basketball only and keep their other sports in the WCC or wherever. As long as we have 10-12 core schools that aren't going anywhere (C7 + Xavier, Butler, VCU for example) we can get by with allowing them in strictly for what they bring on the hardwood.

+1

*Xavier*

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2012, 09:49:30 AM
Guys, why does Gonzaga have to be an all-sports member? Let them join for basketball only and keep their other sports in the WCC or wherever. As long as we have 10-12 core schools that aren't going anywhere (C7 + Xavier, Butler, VCU for example) we can get by with allowing them in strictly for what they bring on the hardwood.

I believe it should be all or nothing. No more partial membership bullshit.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2012, 09:51:05 AM
Gonzaga's brand extends well beyond Spokane (see yesterday's post about Gonzaga's merchandise sales, which are higher than all but two C7 programs, including Marquette, and all A-10 programs).
Dayton's brand does not extend beyond Dayton.

If travel times/costs for the other sports mattered at all, Marquette would have never left the MCC. The extra cost of a flight to Spokane vs a flight to Dayton is not that significant, not when you consider the other benefits of having the Zags.

Alright, you talked me into it. Changed my vote.

Quote from: hairyworthen on December 13, 2012, 09:40:24 AM
Wait, is ND possibly interested?  Why would they leave the acc for this. If they are leaving the acc they would go to the big 10

If they wanted to join the Big 10 they could have done that at any point in the last 20 years.  Doesn't seem to be happening.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2012, 09:49:30 AM
Guys, why does Gonzaga have to be an all-sports member? Let them join for basketball only and keep their other sports in the WCC or wherever. As long as we have 10-12 core schools that aren't going anywhere (C7 + Xavier, Butler, VCU for example) we can get by with allowing them in strictly for what they bring on the hardwood.

That would be a great scenario, but obviously the Zags and WCC would have to want to play along. I could see how it would be beneficial for Gonzaga, but would the WCC still want them around for the other sports if they bail on hoops? No idea.

Assuming the the 5 football conferences go to 16 each, the new basketball centric conference should be 16 as well. I would add VCU and Dayton in the east and Portland and St. Marys in the west.

Quote from: TJ on December 13, 2012, 09:54:30 AM
If they wanted to join the Big 10 they could have done that at any point in the last 20 years.  Doesn't seem to be happening.

I think it is well known that the Big Ten would like to have ND for all sports.  IF ND were to leave the ACC, why would they choose a startup basketball conference instead of the money rich Big Ten.

Quote from: hairyworthen on December 13, 2012, 10:04:02 AM
I think it is well known that the Big Ten would like to have ND for all sports.  IF ND were to leave the ACC, why would they choose a startup basketball conference instead of the money rich Big Ten.

B1G won't let them be a partial member, so park your teams in the new BE.  Let ND be your only partial member, none of this UConn, Cincy stuff.  They will leave eventually and that is the last thing you want/need.

No love for UMass?  Pretty strong following in the Northeast, large research university...

/lives in Boston
//greedy

Zags blog says:

"Hearing Xavier, Butler, VCU, Dayton, St. Louis, Gonzaga and St. Mary's all among targets to join the former Big East Catholic schools."

St. Mary's makes sense in that it gives Gonzaga a West Coast partner, but I'd still prefer Creighton.
Maybe a 14-team league?

Quote from: Warriors10 on December 13, 2012, 10:06:09 AM
B1G won't let them be a partial member, so park your teams in the new BE.  Let ND be your only partial member, none of this UConn, Cincy stuff.  They will leave eventually and that is the last thing you want/need.

Agreed if ND would want to do it but that is a big if. Maybe down the road if the acc implodes they may have interest, but they may look at joining big 10 in all sports then. The ACC as it sits right now is a MUCH better basketball conference than any combination of teams that is formed along with the C7. I would argue that the remaining teams of the Big East has better basketball teams at the top than the new conference.

Quote from: hairyworthen on December 13, 2012, 10:04:02 AM
I think it is well known that the Big Ten would like to have ND for all sports.  IF ND were to leave the ACC, why would they choose a startup basketball conference instead of the money rich Big Ten.

Then the choice is to stay ACC.  ND has made it pretty clear that they will not be joining the Big 10 in all sports.  Of course anything could happen, but they have gone out of their way, time and time again, to keep their football program out of the Big 10.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2012, 09:30:06 AM
Picked Butler, Xavier, St. Louis, Gonzaga and Creighton.
Actually like VCU over St. Louis, but the latter provides a bit more of a geographical balance and puts the conference in another large market.

From there, I'd set two divisions, with home-and-home games against division rivals and one game against each member of the other division, for 16 conference games in all. Or could create a rotating system with home-and-homes with other division opponents once every three years for an 18-game schedule.

East
Georgetown
Villanova
St. John's
Providence
Seton Hall
Xavier

West
Marquette
DePaul
Butler
St. Louis
Creighton
Gonzaga

Yeah, Big East East and Big East West sound silly (and could be improved upon), but at least it's not Legends and Leaders.

I could roll with this, but somehow, all of the schools have to agree to play an aggressive non-conf. schedule. I think that is a big part of staying relevant. Get out and play people. Get on TV. Get some RPI. They can't just beat on each other and expect that to be enough.

You don't want to be reduced to holding bracket buster Saturdays in the hopes of getting 2 teams in the tourny. This new league has to avg. 4+ bids per year to stay relevant.

Quote from: PTM on December 13, 2012, 09:53:44 AM
I believe it should be all or nothing. No more partial membership bullcrap.

Agreed.  Hybrids don't work.  This is a new conference with a unity of purpose and mission.  It is the addition of schools that brought short-term gain without long-term commitment that is the root of the Big East's problems.  Only members are full members.  (Unless we are competing in some sort of olympic sport that other conferences don't offer.)

Regarding ND, it's too bad the C7 didn't push for this earlier.  They could have gotten them.

Quote from: PTM on December 13, 2012, 09:53:44 AM
I believe it should be all or nothing. No more partial membership bullcrap.

Exactly why UCONN and Cincy can go pound sand when it comes to the new conference.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on December 13, 2012, 10:13:18 AM
I could roll with this, but somehow, all of the schools have to agree to play an aggressive non-conf. schedule. I think that is a big part of staying relevant. Get out and play people. Get on TV. Get some RPI. They can't just beat on each other and expect that to be enough.

You don't want to be reduced to holding bracket buster Saturdays in the hopes of getting 2 teams in the tourny. This new league has to avg. 4+ bids per year to stay relevant.

Completely agree, though if recent history is any indication, it shouldn't be a big issue. Even without the C7, there are two teams here (Gonzaga, Xavier) that are tournament perennials and always play good nonconference schedules. Butler is almost there, as well. Toss in Georgetown, MU and Villanova and you have six programs that consistently compete for the tournament plus a couple others (St. John's, Creighton) that should be able to compete for a bid more often than not. no reason to think the conference can't be good for 4-5 bids annually.

Xavier, Creighton, Butler, SLU, and Richmond.  Dayton is unnecessary with Ohio covered, which makes the VA market more worthwhile to me, and I take Richmond over VCU to stay all private.  Gonzaga's just too much of a headache with the distance.  I'd definitely stay at 12.  If ND is in, then I'd have to bump either Butler or Richmond.  

Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2012, 10:20:28 AM
Completely agree, though if recent history is any indication, it shouldn't be a big issue. Even without the C7, there are two teams here (Gonzaga, Xavier) that are tournament perennials and always play good nonconference schedules. Butler is almost there, as well. Toss in Georgetown, MU and Villanova and you have six programs that consistently compete for the tournament plus a couple others (St. John's, Creighton) that should be able to compete for a bid more often than not. no reason to think the conference can't be good for 4-5 bids annually.

4-5 bids would be near automatic. Assuming all these schools play tough OOC schedules you could stretch that to 6-7 on great years.

Recent success also shouldn't be a pre-requisite.  Schools with a long-term commitment to basketball excellence!!  Xavier and Butler for sure.  SLU has a new arena and is starting to shell out more $$$.  Creighton is another I would be excited about.  

Notre Dame is No. 1, of course. They are the ONLY exception to the all-sports rule. I see no reason to take other football schools that would spend every day trying to get in other leagues. It just makes no sense, given what we've been through. (Though I guess I could be convinced about UConn and Cincy if they would sign iron-clad documents promising $100 million exit fees!)

Xavier's an absolute no-brainer. Butler probably is, too.

I want Gonzaga. If it means adding St. Mary's, I probably can live happily ever after with them, although I don't know all that much about their history, financial commitment, etc.

Creighton's up there, too. Solid, time-tested program and good all-around sports program.

Then I'm fine with Richmond, St. Louis and/or Dayton, depending upon how big we get, the ND situation, St. Mary's, etc.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 13, 2012, 10:26:23 AM
Recent success also shouldn't be a pre-requisite.  Schools with a long-term commitment to basketball excellence!!  Xavier and Butler for sure.  SLU has a new arena and is starting to shell out more $$$.  Creighton is another I would be excited about.  

I'd say yes and no to this. Definitely want schools with commitment to the sport, but we don't want to go after schools that are in the tank simply because they've had past success.

I think any of Xavier, Butler, VCU (strong recent commitment), SLU, Gonzaga, St. Mary's, Creighton, Dayton, and Richmond would fit that bill. The one that worries me the most is SLU as they were flagging before Majerus and could do so again, but that's a hard television market to pass up and I like the idea of more teams that are west of Milwaukee.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2012, 10:36:54 AM
I think any of Xavier, Butler, VCU (strong recent commitment), SLU, Gonzaga, St. Mary's, Creighton, Dayton, and Richmond would fit that bill. The one that worries me the most is SLU as they were flagging before Majerus and could do so again, but that's a hard television market to pass up and I like the idea of more teams that are west of Milwaukee.

Tend to agree on St. Louis. They've got a big coaching decision to make that could make or break them for the foreseeable future. That said, the other things they bring to the conference (namely location and market) are tough to pass up.
Worst case, MU gets a division opponent it can count on for two wins a year.

I say you take a run at the successful programs 1st, the big media markets 2nd, and the potential to be good at some point in the future 3rd.

Quote from: MU82 on December 13, 2012, 10:29:56 AM
Notre Dame is No. 1, of course. They are the ONLY exception to the all-sports rule. I see no reason to take other football schools that would spend every day trying to get in other leagues. It just makes no sense, given what we've been through. (Though I guess I could be convinced about UConn and Cincy if they would sign iron-clad documents promising $100 million exit fees!)

Xavier's an absolute no-brainer. Butler probably is, too.

I want Gonzaga. If it means adding St. Mary's, I probably can live happily ever after with them, although I don't know all that much about their history, financial commitment, etc. Creighton's up there, too. Solid, time-tested program and good all-around sports program.

Then I'm fine with Richmond, St. Louis and/or Dayton, depending upon how big we get, the ND situation, St. Mary's, etc.

After thinking about this a little, adding Gonzaga if you have a West Coast "travel partner" isn't the worst thing.  Before Butler left, the Horizon League did this to perfection in all sports (Green Bay-Milwaukee, UIC-Loyola, Valparaiso-Butler, YoungstownSt-Cleveland St, WrightSt-Detroit), albeit on a much smaller scale.

You've convinced me too.

What about Wichita St? If Gonzaga is on this, Wichita St should be too.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2012, 10:20:28 AM
Completely agree, though if recent history is any indication, it shouldn't be a big issue. Even without the C7, there are two teams here (Gonzaga, Xavier) that are tournament perennials and always play good nonconference schedules. Butler is almost there, as well. Toss in Georgetown, MU and Villanova and you have six programs that consistently compete for the tournament plus a couple others (St. John's, Creighton) that should be able to compete for a bid more often than not. no reason to think the conference can't be good for 4-5 bids annually.

I hope you are right, but I just don't want AD's to think:

We have 4-5 tournament teams in our conf., that will help our RPI.

The truth is that conf. play is really a zero sum game, so I'd like to see school build their resume before conf. play.

To put it another way: The Zags have a tough non-conf. out of necessity. I hope they don't change that because now they will have 4-5 conference losses.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2012, 10:41:47 AM
Tend to agree on St. Louis. They've got a big coaching decision to make that could make or break them for the foreseeable future. That said, the other things they bring to the conference (namely location and market) are tough to pass up.

The Chaifetz Arena isn't old, and they dropped serious coin on that thing. I think they are taking their hoops seriously, and will if they get an invite.

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 13, 2012, 10:54:20 AM
What about Wichita St? If Gonzaga is on this, Wichita St should be too.

Why?
Wichita St. doesn't really fit the profile.

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 13, 2012, 10:54:20 AM
What about Wichita St? If Gonzaga is on this, Wichita St should be too.

Not sold on WSU. They wouldn't be a bad call necessarily, but 2 NCAA appearances in the past 24 years doesn't fill me with much confidence. They already lost one coach not too long ago and Marshall is rumored with big jobs every year, seems like a matter of time before he's gone. I'd sooner have St. Mary's, who has 6 NCAA appearances in that same span and Randy Bennett seems to have a stronger commitment there, having been at SMC for 10 years. They'd probably need to upgrade from McKeon Pavilion, but they are closer and have more of a natural connection with Gonzaga while also getting into a much bigger market of San Fran.

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 13, 2012, 10:54:20 AM
What about Wichita St? If Gonzaga is on this, Wichita St should be too.

They might fit in a 14-16 team model, but I don't think the 10-12 we're hearing about.  I'd think if the conference goes to the VA market, and if they decide they must have VCU over Richmond, then Wichita State comes into play as another public school in another market and a travel partner for SLU.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on December 13, 2012, 10:55:52 AM


To put it another way: The Zags have a tough non-conf. out of necessity. I hope they don't change that because now they will have 4-5 conference losses.

If 16-2 in their old conference translates to 13-5, 12-6, 11-7 or worse in a new conference they would be foolish not to go to a slightly easier non conference schedule.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2012, 11:05:33 AM
If 16-2 in their old conference translates to 13-5, 12-6, 11-7 or worse in a new conference they would be foolish not to go to a slightly easier non conference schedule.

Yea, but that's what I'm worried about.

I don't want to to be a race to the bottom where everybody is trying to build their non-conf. record up before they play in this league.

Gonzaga is a bit of an extreme example, but IMO, to keep the conference profile high, these schools have to aggressively go out and schedule games against BCS schools and be on TV as much as possible.

To put it another way: There are years when the A10 is a pretty good conference, but you still don't hear much about it. This league has to do everything in it's power to keep the profile up.

-Schedule big games
-Premium conf. tournament location
-Good TV package, maybe even something progressive/cutting edge with internet viewing
-Maybe some PR stunts/events that other conf. aren't willing to do
etc.

Publicity and profile, especially in the next 3-5 years is VERY important.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on December 13, 2012, 11:27:05 AM
Yea, but that's what I'm worried about.

I don't want to to be a race to the bottom where everybody is trying to build their non-conf. record up before they play in this league.

Gonzaga is a bit of an extreme example, but IMO, to keep the conference profile high, these schools have to aggressively go out and schedule games against BCS schools and be on TV as much as possible.

To put it another way: There are years when the A10 is a pretty good conference, but you still don't hear much about it. This league has to do everything in it's power to keep the profile up.

-Schedule big games
-Premium conf. tournament location
-Good TV package, maybe even something progressive/cutting edge with internet viewing
-Maybe some PR stunts/events that other conf. aren't willing to do
etc.

Publicity and profile, especially in the next 3-5 years is VERY important.

I am all about internet viewing. If the C7 conference is willing to let me pay $10/15/20 a month to watch all of the games (or even just MU games) on my iPad/XBox/Ps3/Roku/etc that would be awesome - I would cancel my cable instantly.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2012, 09:30:06 AM
Picked Butler, Xavier, St. Louis, Gonzaga and Creighton.
Actually like VCU over St. Louis, but the latter provides a bit more of a geographical balance and puts the conference in another large market.

From there, I'd set two divisions, with home-and-home games against division rivals and one game against each member of the other division, for 16 conference games in all. Or could create a rotating system with home-and-homes with other division opponents once every three years for an 18-game schedule.

East
Georgetown
Villanova
St. John's
Providence
Seton Hall
Xavier

West
Marquette
DePaul
Butler
St. Louis
Creighton
Gonzaga

Yeah, Big East East and Big East West sound silly (and could be improved upon), but at least it's not Legends and Leaders.

Like this order that you came up with except replace St. Louis with St. Mary's which would allow two west coast trips and get teams into Caly for recruiting.

Here's how I would create a new league (or somehow keep Big East name with MSG as tournament):

Core 7 members:

Marquette
Found in 1881. Jesuit. Undergraduate enrollment of 8,387. $401 million endowment. Milwaukee media market (#34). Bradley Center capacity of 18,850, average attendance 15,183 (#13). 30 NCAA tournament bids, 1 NCAA championship (1977), 3 Final Fours (last in 2003).

Georgetown
Found in 1789. Jesuit. Undergraduate enrollment of 7,590. $1.16 billion endowment. Washington, DC media market (#8). Verizon Center capacity of 20,035, average attendance 11,283 (#35). 28 NCAA tournament bids, 1 NCAA championship, 5 Final Fours (last in 2007).

Villanova
Found in 1842. St. Augustine. Undergraduate enrollment of 6,394. $370 million endowment. Philadelphia media market (#4). Wells Fargo Center/Pavillion capacity of 20,038/6,500, average attendance 8,923 (#44). 31 NCAA tournament bids, 1 NCAA championship (1985), 3 Final Fours (last in 2009).

St. John's
Found in 1870. Vincentian. Undergrduate enrollment of 15,720. $267 million endowment. New York media market (#1). Madison Square Garden/Carnesecca Arena capacity of 19,979/5,602, average attendance 8,428 (#54). 27 NCAA tournament bids, 2 Final Fours (last in 1985).

Providence
Founded in 1917. Dominican. Undergraduate enrollment of 3,852. $164 million endowment. Providence media market (#53). Dunkin' Donuts Center capacity of 12,400, average attendance 7,883 (#63). 15 NCAA tournament bids, 2 Final Fours (last in 1987).

Seton Hall
Found in 1856. Diocesan. Undergraduate enrollment of 5,245. $203 million endowment. South Orange/NYC media market (#1). Prudential Center capacity of 18,711, average attendance 6,941 (#76). 9 NCAA tournament bids, 1 Final Four (1989).

DePaul
Found in 1898. Vincentian. Undergraduate enrollment of 16,384. $414 million endowment. Chicago media market (#3). AllState Arena capacity of 17,500, average attendance 7,740 (#67). 18 NCAA tournament bids, 2 Final Fours (last in 1979).


If I were to add three teams to make it a 10-team league, here would be my first three choices:

Xavier
Found in 1831. Jesuit. Undergraduate enrollment of 4,540. $117 million endowment. Cincinnati media market (#35). Cintas Center capacity of 10,250, average attendance 10,155 (#39). 23 NCAA tournament bids, no Final Fours.

Butler
Found in 1855. Private. Undergraduate enrollment of 4,034. $155 million endowment. Indianapolis media market (#26). Hinkle Fieldhouse capacity of 10,000, average attendance 6,599 (#78). 11 NCAA tournament bids, 2 Final Fours (last in 2011).

Creighton
Found in 1878. Jesuit. Undergraduate enrollment of 4,153. $375 million endowment. Omaha media market (#75). CenturyLink Center capacity of 17,260, average attendance 16,665 (#6). 17 NCAA tournament bids, no Final Fours.


Going to a 12-team league, I'd invite the next two schools:

St. Louis
Found in 1818. Jesuit. Undergraduate enrollment of 8,406. $880 million endowment. St. Louis media market (#21). Chaifetz Arena capacity of 10,600, average attendance 7,757 (#66). 7 NCAA tournament bids, no Final Fours.

Dayton
Found in 1850. Marianist. Undergraduate enrollment of 6,925. $598 million endowment. Dayton media market (#63). Dayton Arena capacity of 13,435, average attendance 12,154 (#28). 14 NCAA tournament bids, 1 Final Four (1967).


Going up to a 14-team league (or beyond), I'd choose from these schools to capture media markets and help with good recruiting states:

Detroit
Found in 1877. Jesuit. Undergraduate enrollment of 2,971. $26 million endowment. Detroit media market (#11). Calihan Hall capacity of 8,295, average attendance 2,722 (not ranked). 6 NCAA tournament bids, no Final Fours.

Duquesne
Found in 1878. Spitrtan Fathers. Undergraduate enrollment of 5,858. $171 million endowment. Pittsburgh media market (#23). AJ Plaumbo Center capacity of 4,406, average attendance 3,204 (not ranked). 5 NCAA tournament bids, 1 Final Four (1940).

VCU
Found in 1838. Public. Undergraduate enrollment of 23,754. $350 million endowment. Richmond media market #57. Stuart C. Siegel Center capacity of 7,617, average attendance 7,622 (#70). 11 NCAA tournament bids, 1 Final Four (2011).

Richmond
Found in 1830. Private. Undergraduate enrollment of 2,767. $1.9 billion endowment. Richmond media market (#57). Robins Center capacity of 9,171, average attendance 5,660 (#93). 9 NCAA tournament bids, no Final Fours.

I want nothing to do with the last 4 teams you listed, Norm.

Quote from: PTM on December 13, 2012, 11:37:54 AM
I want nothing to do with the last 4 teams you listed, Norm.

Agreed

Quote from: PTM on December 13, 2012, 11:37:54 AM
I want nothing to do with the last 4 teams you listed, Norm.

I could live with VCU and Richmond.
I'd run far, far, far away from Duquesne and Detroit.

And still would much rather have Gonzaga over Dayton or St. Louis.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2012, 09:30:06 AM
Picked Butler, Xavier, St. Louis, Gonzaga and Creighton.
Actually like VCU over St. Louis, but the latter provides a bit more of a geographical balance and puts the conference in another large market.

From there, I'd set two divisions, with home-and-home games against division rivals and one game against each member of the other division, for 16 conference games in all. Or could create a rotating system with home-and-homes with other division opponents once every three years for an 18-game schedule.

East
Georgetown
Villanova
St. John's
Providence
Seton Hall
Xavier

West
Marquette
DePaul
Butler
St. Louis
Creighton
Gonzaga

Yeah, Big East East and Big East West sound silly (and could be improved upon), but at least it's not Legends and Leaders.

I like this PTM

St Mary's should only be invited if they are seriously considering Gonzaga.  Also why is nobody considering Belmont? They're traditionally really good and fit in the geography plus I'm sure they be desperate to get into this league

Quote from: PTM on December 13, 2012, 11:37:54 AM
I want nothing to do with the last 4 teams you listed, Norm.

Well, those were just teams I threw out there if they wanted to go to 14 teams. I only included Detroit and Duquesne because of the cities they are in and the media markets that might help in any tv package. Michigan and Pennsylvania also have large numbers of talented prepsters to recruit from as well.

Quote from: MUWarrior4Life on December 13, 2012, 11:47:08 AM
I like this PTM

I would switch MU and Xavier if at all possible. MU should lobby hard to be a part of the East.

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on December 13, 2012, 11:49:07 AM
St Mary's should only be invited if they are seriously considering Gonzaga.  Also why is nobody considering Belmont? They're traditionally really good and fit in the geography plus I'm sure they be desperate to get into this league

Belmont has been decent of late, but they have 5 total NCAA appearances, all in the past 7 years. There isn't much tradition there. They have never won a NCAA game. Their arena is only 11 years old and seats 5,000. Not exactly making a "ready for big-time" statement. They simply aren't trying to compete on this level.

One more reason to invite UConn, Cincy, and USF. If we keep them around, it seems they'd be less likely to sue. If they're still part of this new puzzle, it makes more sense to take what money they can still salvage while parking football than tying us up with messy litigation.

Quote from: MARQ_13 on December 13, 2012, 11:51:59 AM
I would switch MU and Xavier if at all possible. MU should lobby hard to be a part of the East.

Why not just create a "good teams division" and a "bad teams division"?

Quote from: hairyworthen on December 13, 2012, 09:40:24 AM
Wait, is ND possibly interested?  Why would they leave the acc for this. If they are leaving the acc they would go to the big 10

ACC is quickly becoming a bastard of the ACC/Big East.  If the SEC grabs FSU and B1G grabs UNC, Notre Dame is stuck playing 5 games a year against teams that it just tried to avoid in Pitt, Cuse, Louisville.  Add in Duke, BC and Wake Forest - those teams wont do ANYTHING for ND football RPI.  So, by going C-7, their football would be truly independent and they would have the stability of the C-7 in making the other sports successful.

Quote from: TJ on December 13, 2012, 11:54:34 AM
Why not just create a "good teams division" and a "bad teams division"?

http://instantrimshot.com/

Quote from: chapman on December 13, 2012, 11:04:31 AM
They might fit in a 14-16 team model, but I don't think the 10-12 we're hearing about.  I'd think if the conference goes to the VA market, and if they decide they must have VCU over Richmond, then Wichita State comes into play as another public school in another market and a travel partner for SLU.

I meant just part of the poll. If we stretch this league to Gonzaga, I think Wichita St and Creighton (who both sell-out their arenas and rank in the top 25 for attendance every yr) must be a part of it. I'd like Gonzaga if we go to 16.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2012, 11:00:21 AM
Not sold on WSU. They wouldn't be a bad call necessarily, but 2 NCAA appearances in the past 24 years doesn't fill me with much confidence. They already lost one coach not too long ago and Marshall is rumored with big jobs every year, seems like a matter of time before he's gone. I'd sooner have St. Mary's, who has 6 NCAA appearances in that same span and Randy Bennett seems to have a stronger commitment there, having been at SMC for 10 years. They'd probably need to upgrade from McKeon Pavilion, but they are closer and have more of a natural connection with Gonzaga while also getting into a much bigger market of San Fran.

What school would we be adding that you couldn't say that about?

I don't like St. Mary's at all. Super small, never heard a good thing about their campus and rely heavily on Australian players. I'd take San Fran though, good school, much larger, great overall athletic department, jesuit and much better history.

Quote from: Stone Cold on December 13, 2012, 11:35:15 AM
Like this order that you came up with except replace St. Louis with St. Mary's which would allow two west coast trips and get teams into Caly for recruiting.

No.

Quote from: lurch91 on December 13, 2012, 11:56:51 AM
ACC is quickly becoming a bastard of the ACC/Big East.  If the SEC grabs FSU and B1G grabs UNC, Notre Dame is stuck playing 5 games a year against teams that it just tried to avoid in Pitt, Cuse, Louisville.  Add in Duke, BC and Wake Forest - those teams wont do ANYTHING for ND football RPI.  So, by going C-7, their football would be truly independent and they would have the stability of the C-7 in making the other sports successful.

ND LOVES playing Boston College.  They get their jollies off of it.  And don't be so sure they don't want to play Pitt either.

ND went to the ACC because they wanted to remain a part of the increasingly prearranged bowl situation.  They will be slotted into the ACC standings and granted the Bowl invitation normally given to whichever place they fall into.  They could see that the Bowls were increasingly being closed off to them by contracts with the various contracts and didn't want to be left out.

Ummm, why not just join the A-10 with that list Norm??  No way do you go to those last 4 teams. I'd switch VCU and Dayton around though.  Not sure what the hard on for Dayton is anyway?

Notre Dame is not leaving the ACC.

But...

They should/will have a standing invitation if something goes haywire over the next handful of years.

1 phone call, and the C7 conference would take them.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2012, 09:30:06 AM
East
Georgetown
Villanova
St. John's
Providence
Seton Hall
Xavier

West
Marquette
DePaul
Butler
St. Louis
Creighton
Gonzaga

I like. But I think Gonzaga is an option for beyond 12. Such as:

East
Villanova
St. John's
Providence
Seton Hall

Atlantic
Georgetown
Dayton
Xavier
Richmond

Midwest
Marquette
DePaul
Butler
St. Louis

West
Creighton
Gonzaga
Wichita St
San Francisco

Gonzaga would want ALL sports in Big East. Pretty much have to make a western division to make that happen.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2012/dec/12/gonzaga-part-discussion-new-league/

I guess I have gotten a softer heart for certain schools seeing how MU is always left out of the ACC/BIG/big 12 talks but if there is one school that I wouldn't want to be a part of this conference it would be...Dayton.

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 13, 2012, 12:03:59 PM
I like. But I think Gonzaga is an option for beyond 12. Such as:

East
Villanova
St. John's
Providence
Seton Hall

Atlantic
Georgetown
Dayton
Xavier
Richmond

Midwest
Marquette
DePaul
Butler
St. Louis

West
Creighton
Gonzaga
Wichita St
San Francisco

That just looks crazy to me. I get that Gonzaga is a nice bball program, but its not worth overextending the conference.

Quote from: JDuquaine on December 13, 2012, 12:02:36 PM
Ummm, why not just join the A-10 with that list Norm??  No way do you go to those last 4 teams. I'd switch VCU and Dayton around though.  Not sure what the hard on for Dayton is anyway?

Sshhhh,  that UDpride guy might be reading this. 

I wonder how he and his long  essay writing ass feel now about his A-10 "conference of stability among a sea of chaos"   

I would take 7 so we can include Gonzaga and St. Mary's as a west coast partner.  So Creighton, Butler, Dayton, St. Louis, Xavier, Gonzaga, St. Mary's.  Granted more revenue split but there's no way you pass up a quality program like Gonzaga if you can get them.  I'm already planning my trip to Spokane.

half baked idea and an off-the-board alternative... go big and invite ALL the bordeline candidates like Detroit, etc.  Would it be feasible to go English soccer league style with a three tiered league and a system of relegation?  Worst team in each level gets demoted, the best moves up?  Gives the up and comers a chance to play up and keeps an incentive for the likes of DePaul to keep investing in a winning program?  Just a thought.  Always loved that concept in soccer.

Quote from: JDuquaine on December 13, 2012, 12:02:36 PM
Ummm, why not just join the A-10 with that list Norm??  No way do you go to those last 4 teams. I'd switch VCU and Dayton around though.  Not sure what the hard on for Dayton is anyway?

Adding 2 A-10 teams and 1 MVC team to form a 10-team league is not "joining the A-10." And a 12-team league plucking 4 A-10 schools is not necessarily "joining" it either - it's picking up their top teams. I'm also not a big fan of Dayton myself, and would have no problem subbing in VCU for Dayton in a 12-team league.

Again, I only threw the possibility of Detroit and Duquesne in there because of the media markets and the possibility that could help with a tv package. I'd much prefer a 10-teams league.

Quote from: MUMBA on December 13, 2012, 12:22:28 PM
half baked idea and an off-the-board alternative... go big and invite ALL the bordeline candidates like Detroit, etc.  Would it be feasible to go English soccer league style with a three tiered league and a system of relegation?  Worst team in each level gets demoted, the best moves up?  Gives the up and comers a chance to play up and keeps an incentive for the likes of DePaul to keep investing in a winning program?  Just a thought.  Always loved that concept in soccer.

It certainly wins points for innovation

Quote from: lurch91 on December 13, 2012, 11:56:51 AM
ACC is quickly becoming a bastard of the ACC/Big East.  If the SEC grabs FSU and B1G grabs UNC, Notre Dame is stuck playing 5 games a year against teams that it just tried to avoid in Pitt, Cuse, Louisville.  Add in Duke, BC and Wake Forest - those teams wont do ANYTHING for ND football RPI.  So, by going C-7, their football would be truly independent and they would have the stability of the C-7 in making the other sports successful.

ND signed signed long-term agreements with BC, Pitt and Cuse even prior to their move to the ACC (see below). They like playing all of those schools (they played Pitt and BC this year...so I guess they didnt kill their rpi as you suggest). It's unclear whether or not these contracts will have to be modified now that ND agreed to play 5 ACC teams per year.



Pitt - 2013, 14, 15, 16
BC  - 2015, 16, 18, 19
SU  - 2014, 15, 16, 17

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 13, 2012, 12:03:59 PMWest
Creighton
Gonzaga
Wichita St
San Francisco

I'm on board with Creighton and Wichita State, and do feel it's worth expanding to include Gonzaga, but offering San Francisco over St. Mary's would be ludicrous. I realize the Dons have a rich history, but that's all it is. They've had 1 NCAA appearance in the past 30 years. Their two titles in the 1950s don't carry much weight anymore. Their gym is over 50 years old and only seats 5,300. There are probably 10 teams I'd include ahead of them, and that's just west of the Mississippi.

Quote from: AWegrzyn17 on December 13, 2012, 12:09:25 PM
That just looks crazy to me. I get that Gonzaga is a nice bball program, but its not worth overextending the conference.

Agree.  They're a very good program, but don't fit the "big eastern city" definition and I question whether they'd have the commitment after 2-3 years of travel, especially if travel and competition cause them to miss some tournaments because somebody in their conference other than St. Mary's can beat them.  Great program, just not worth taking a two time zone difference from everybody else.  Also not worth taking other west coast programs to accommodate - St. Mary's has been good recently, but I don't think they can handle a strong conference given that they're still playing weak non-con schedules.
 
I like what I'm hearing as far as 10-12 teams.  The list from "sources" says Xavier, SLU, Creighton, Butler, and Dayton are candidates being discussed.  I'd sub Dayton for Richmond myself to get a different market and give Butler another non-Catholic school, but it seems like they've got the right idea - all CST or EST, all getting good markets, all private, none splitting sports between conferences.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2012, 12:31:57 PM
I'm on board with Creighton and Wichita State, and do feel it's worth expanding to include Gonzaga, but offering San Francisco over St. Mary's would be ludicrous. I realize the Dons have a rich history, but that's all it is. They've had 1 NCAA appearance in the past 30 years. Their two titles in the 1950s don't carry much weight anymore. Their gym is over 50 years old and only seats 5,300. There are probably 10 teams I'd include ahead of them, and that's just west of the Mississippi.

And Gonzaga's seats 6,000. St. Mary's is 3,500.

Money (and better games) fixes a lot of problems, and saying St. Mary's (and their much smaller endowment, academic rank, overall athletics, student body size and campus) should be the auto-ad because of 6 tournament appearances since 1960 is just as ludicrous.  

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 13, 2012, 01:11:28 PM
And Gonzaga's seats 6,000. St. Mary's is 3,500.

Money (and better games) fixes a lot of problems, and saying St. Mary's (and their much smaller endowment, academic rank, overall athletics, student body size and campus) should be the auto-ad because of 6 tournament appearances since 1960 is just as ludicrous.  

If that we're the only reason, I'd agree whole-heartedly. But in the past 20 years, both Gonzaga and St Mary's have made far more noticeable commitments to their programs. They are trending up and have been for some time.

Quote from: MARQ_13 on December 13, 2012, 11:51:59 AM
I would switch MU and Xavier if at all possible. MU should lobby hard to be a part of the East.

Cinci is well east of Milwaukee. Also in the Eastern time zone. Just sayin'.

Gonzaga is 100% must in this new conference, even if they are the only PST team in the new league. They would absoltuely be my first phone call from the C7 to join. Have to have them.

Quote from: MU82 on December 13, 2012, 01:21:14 PM
Cinci is well east of Milwaukee. Also in the Eastern time zone. Just sayin'.

I don't think they should use geography to create the divisions.  Just create divisions that make sense.

Is creighton going to be in the conference?

Quote from: MUDish on December 13, 2012, 01:31:39 PM
Gonzaga is 100% must in this new conference, even if they are the only PST team in the new league. They would absoltuely be my first phone call from the C7 to join. Have to have them.

I put them behind Xavier and Butler, but they are very high on my priority list. I think that they would help far more than many realize in terms of marketing the league and any television deal. If the league had a weekly "Big XXXDay" where they had an East Coast tip-off at 6 pm central, a Midwest tip-off at 8 pm, and a West Coast tip-off at 10 pm central I think it would be great for the league. But to do that, you probably need 2-3 teams out west to host those games. Gonzaga, St. Mary's, and Creighton would be my three picks.

Regardless, the Zags are big-time. I want them badly.

Quote from: TJ on December 13, 2012, 01:37:19 PM
I don't think they should use geography to create the divisions.  Just create divisions that make sense.

Better yet, don't create divisions at all.  The 16 team Big East didn't need them.  The Pac 12 only uses them for football.  The SEC dropped divisions for basketball in the last year or two because they were pointless.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2012, 01:42:40 PM
I put them behind Xavier and Butler, but they are very high on my priority list. I think that they would help far more than many realize in terms of marketing the league and any television deal. If the league had a weekly "Big XXXDay" where they had an East Coast tip-off at 6 pm central, a Midwest tip-off at 8 pm, and a West Coast tip-off at 10 pm central I think it would be great for the league. But to do that, you probably need 2-3 teams out west to host those games. Gonzaga, St. Mary's, and Creighton would be my three picks.

Regardless, the Zags are big-time. I want them badly.

To me, the goal is to create the best basketball conference in the country (given the circumstances). I'd figure out the logistics later. Gonzaga already tries to play a national non-conference schedule already. My gut feeling is they'd be all over joining this league. Opens up a recruiting window for Gonzaga in the Midwest/East, every other team gets a window to the Pacific Northwest.

Quote from: TJ on December 13, 2012, 01:37:19 PM
I don't think they should use geography to create the divisions.  Just create divisions that make sense.

What, other than geography, makes sense?

Cats and Dogs
Butler
Gonzaga
Georgetown
Villanova

Good vs. Evil
Providence
DePaul
Seton Hall
Xavier (guns are good or evil, depending on your persuasion?)
Richmond (spiders = definitely evil)

For the Birds
Marquette
Creighton
Dayton
Temple

Edit: Since I couldn't figure out WTF a Billiken is, even after staring at a photo for several minutes, they must not be allowed entrance to this new conference.

Quote from: MUDish on December 13, 2012, 01:48:48 PM
To me, the goal is to create the best basketball conference in the country (given the circumstances). I'd figure out the logistics later. Gonzaga already tries to play a national non-conference schedule already. My gut feeling is they'd be all over joining this league. Opens up a recruiting window for Gonzaga in the Midwest/East, every other team gets a window to the Pacific Northwest.

Exactly, and adding as many high quality teams as possible will be important in negotiating a TV deal. I'm guessing a league with Gonzaga would bring in more TV revenue than a league with Dayton.

Quote from: chapman on December 13, 2012, 01:44:04 PM
Better yet, don't create divisions at all.  The 16 team Big East didn't need them.  The Pac 12 only uses them for football.  The SEC dropped divisions for basketball in the last year or two because they were pointless.

+1

Quote from: chapman on December 13, 2012, 01:44:04 PM
Better yet, don't create divisions at all.  The 16 team Big East didn't need them.  The Pac 12 only uses them for football.  The SEC dropped divisions for basketball in the last year or two because they were pointless.

In a conference that has the potential to literally span coast-to-coast, divisions make sense for scheduling/travel purposes.

Guys, one important thing we are missing is Lacrosse. What schools have good lacrosse teams?

Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2012, 01:51:59 PM
What, other than geography, makes sense?

Cats and Dogs
Butler
Gonzaga
Georgetown
Villanova

Good vs. Evil
Providence
DePaul
Seton Hall
Xavier (guns are good or evil, depending on your persuasion?)
Richmond (spiders = definitely evil)

For the Birds
Marquette
Creighton
Dayton
Temple

While I like the divisions you just came up with, no divisions is the way to go.

From that list, I'll go with:

Xavier
Gonzaga
St Marys
Saint Louis
Creighton

I'd still like to see UMass.  With Uconn out and BC having already left, there is a potential opportunity there.  It may not be big, but then again neither were UConn and others back in the late 70's when the Big East was created.

I know they have football, but they are in the MAC for that, don't see it as a threat as long as every other school also doesn't have football.

Quote from: PTM on December 13, 2012, 01:54:25 PM
Guys, one important thing we are missing is Lacrosse. What schools have good lacrosse teams?

Villanova, Georgetown, St. John's, Providence and Marquette have lacrosse teams. None of the others mentioned in this thread (except for Detroit) have lacrosse teams.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2012, 01:53:32 PM
In a conference that has the potential to literally span coast-to-coast, divisions make sense for scheduling/travel purposes.

Probably likely to create more problems.  You're going to tell Marquette they have to go to Spokane every year but Xavier only has to go once every three or four years because Marquette is "closer"?

Quote from: PTM on December 13, 2012, 01:54:25 PM
Guys, one important thing we are missing is Lacrosse. What schools have good lacrosse teams?

Of C7: St. John's, Providence, Georgetown, Villanova.  So we make five.  Of schools that have been mentioned at all for this conference, even just a little: UMass, Denver, St. Joseph's, Detroit.  So nobody we seem serious about adding.  

Just by glancing at the list of D1 teams and conferences, it looks like 6-8 is the preferred size.  Unless any of the C7 or their invitees are starting up a program, I think easiest course would be to take our five and merge with Rutgers (formerly Big East) and Michigan (Independent) for a conference.  That'll last until the B1G cash cow grows enough that every school can afford a team.

I wasn't serious about the lacrosse question...

Quote from: PTM on December 13, 2012, 02:19:50 PM
I wasn't serious about the lacrosse question...

Dude, chilLAX bro!

(http://www.betcheslovethis.com/files/uploads/images/sportsbros1.jpg)

Quote from: chapman on December 13, 2012, 02:16:29 PM
Probably likely to create more problems.  You're going to tell Marquette they have to go to Spokane every year but Xavier only has to go once every three or four years because Marquette is "closer"?

It would be more like every other year. And, yeah, it is closer.
And I'm still not sure why a few extra hours on an airplane ONCE a year is seen as some sort of dealbreaker around here. I mean, you'd rather be in a conference with Dayton than Gonzaga because of a few extra hours on an airplane once every 12 months?

Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2012, 02:25:28 PM
It would be more like every other year. And, yeah, it is closer.
And I'm still not sure why a few extra hours on an airplane ONCE a year is seen as some sort of dealbreaker around here. I mean, you'd rather be in a conference with Dayton than Gonzaga because of a few extra hours on an airplane once every 12 months?

I go to Seattle every month for work, I fly commercial (not charter), it's fine. This isn't the 1960's. I realize Gonzaga is in Spokane too, which is actually closer than Seattle.

If Gonzaga isn't at least invited, I'd be extremely disappointed.

Quote from: MUDish on December 13, 2012, 02:29:04 PM
I go to Seattle every month for work, I fly commercial (not charter), it's fine. This isn't the 1960's. I realize Gonzaga is in Spokane too, which is actually closer than Seattle.

If Gonzaga isn't at least invited, I'd be extremely disappointed.

+1

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 13, 2012, 02:00:14 PM
I'd still like to see UMass.  With Uconn out and BC having already left, there is a potential opportunity there.  It may not be big, but then again neither were UConn and others back in the late 70's when the Big East was created.

I know they have football, but they are in the MAC for that, don't see it as a threat as long as every other school also doesn't have football.

If they can give commitment to the league (and not football), I say yes. Also helps divisions (yes, I like divisions -  more than ONE team can "win" something and it helps [more] regional rivalries)

East: UMass, St. John's, Seton Hall, Providence
Atlantic: Georgetown, Villanova, Richmond, VCU
Midwest: Xavier, Dayton, Butler, St. Louis
West: Marquette, DePaul, Creighton, Wichita St

Without a doubt, the goal of the new Big East conference should be to create the best basketball conference in the nation.  Certainly the conference should consist of nationally recognized basketball programs.  As a result, the conference should not be narrowly based on religious affiliation but should be based on the value that each prospective member will make towards the conference's goal of becoming the best basketball conference.

There are prospective members that have nationally recognized basketball programs who also have football programs.  For example, Memphis, UMass, and Temple all have strong nationally recognized basketball programs who also have football programs.  The new Big East could certainly add a few members like Memphis or UMass as full members, but they would have to house its football programs elsewhere.  Most likely, members who would have football would have to either compete as an independent in football or would have to join another conference as an associate member for football only.  In order to make sure basketball will remain prominent with in the conference, and that the new Big East will never sponsor football as a sport, there should be a bylaw established that no more than 25% of membership in the new Big East can have NCAA Division 1 FBS program.

Also, geography is an important part in constructing the new Big East conference but it's not as important as attracting the best basketball programs as possible.  Although, Gonzaga is geographically far from the current footprint of the Big East, Gonzaga has a nationally recognized, successful basketball program.  As a result, Gonzaga should be considered as well as another very strong national brand in basketball, BYU.  If Gonzaga would be added BYU could be added as well to provide a travel partner with Gonzaga while achieving the goal of becoming the best basketball conference in the nation.

Other prospective members that should be considered are the top members of the Atlantic 10 conference who have excellent basketball programs.  For example, Xavier, Butler, Saint Louis, and Dayton could certainly be considered.  Creighton, from the Missouri Valley Conference who also has a nationally prominent program could be a very attractive option as well.

Quote from: reinko on December 13, 2012, 02:22:47 PM
Dude, chilLAX bro!

(http://www.betcheslovethis.com/files/uploads/images/sportsbros1.jpg)

Which one is you?

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8742607/seven-catholic-schools-leaning-leaving-big-east-sources-say

In this updated article from Katz, it mentions a quote from Mike Brey who stated the C7 have reached out to:

Xavier
St. Louis
Dayton
Creighton
Gonzaga
St. Mary's

That would add up to 13 teams. 

Quote from: nyg on December 13, 2012, 02:46:10 PM
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8742607/seven-catholic-schools-leaning-leaving-big-east-sources-say

In this updated article from Katz, it mentions a quote from Mike Brey who stated the C7 have reached out to:

Xavier
St. Louis
Dayton
Creighton
Gonzaga
St. Mary's

That would add up to 13 teams. 

"Sources" also saying they want 10, perhaps 12, so someone's getting left in the WCC/MVC/A10.

Quote from: nyg on December 13, 2012, 02:46:10 PM
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8742607/seven-catholic-schools-leaning-leaving-big-east-sources-say

In this updated article from Katz, it mentions a quote from Mike Brey who stated the C7 have reached out to:

Xavier
St. Louis
Dayton
Creighton
Gonzaga
St. Mary's

That would add up to 13 teams. 

Plus ND = 14

Quote from: nyg on December 13, 2012, 02:46:10 PM
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8742607/seven-catholic-schools-leaning-leaving-big-east-sources-say

In this updated article from Katz, it mentions a quote from Mike Brey who stated the C7 have reached out to:

Xavier
St. Louis
Dayton
Creighton
Gonzaga
St. Mary's

That would add up to 13 teams.  

Do you think that conferences over-recruit just like schools do?  I wonder how heated one of those schools will get when they realize that they got recruited over :P

Quote from: nyg on December 13, 2012, 02:46:10 PM
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8742607/seven-catholic-schools-leaning-leaving-big-east-sources-say

In this updated article from Katz, it mentions a quote from Mike Brey who stated the C7 have reached out to:

Xavier
St. Louis
Dayton
Creighton
Gonzaga
St. Mary's

That would add up to 13 teams. 

Leave Dayton first, then St. Mary's.

Quote from: Norm on December 13, 2012, 02:11:27 PM
Villanova, Georgetown, St. John's, Providence and Marquette have lacrosse teams. None of the others mentioned in this thread (except for Detroit) have lacrosse teams.

Are you sure Detroit has a lacrosse team?  Or are they just carrying around those sticks for protection?

Butler should absolutely be included. They have shown a strong commitment to their program, increase name recognition, are associated with a top-30 media market in Indianapolis, and have shown a willingness to increase their level of competition by stepping up to the A-10.

Though I'm curious why Mike Brey would be the authority on this. Are we really confiding in Notre Dame over this? If so, is it because they might still be in play?

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2012, 02:51:38 PM
Butler should absolutely be included. They have shown a strong commitment to their program, increase name recognition, are associated with a top-30 media market in Indianapolis, and have shown a willingness to increase their level of competition by stepping up to the A-10.

Though I'm curious why Mike Brey would be the authority on this. Are we really confiding in Notre Dame over this? If so, is it because they might still be in play?

If we floated the idea their way to ask them if they wanted to join, I have no doubt that we'd tell them everything.  I'm not surprised that Brey knows everything about the situation.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2012, 02:51:38 PM
Butler should absolutely be included. They have shown a strong commitment to their program, increase name recognition, are associated with a top-30 media market in Indianapolis, and have shown a willingness to increase their level of competition by stepping up to the A-10.

Though I'm curious why Mike Brey would be the authority on this. Are we really confiding in Notre Dame over this? If so, is it because they might still be in play?

Or it could indicate these discussions have been going on for some time now, as in before Notre Dame jumped ship.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2012, 02:51:38 PM
Butler should absolutely be included. They have shown a strong commitment to their program, increase name recognition, are associated with a top-30 media market in Indianapolis, and have shown a willingness to increase their level of competition by stepping up to the A-10.

Though I'm curious why Mike Brey would be the authority on this. Are we really confiding in Notre Dame over this? If so, is it because they might still be in play?

Maybe Butler isn't included since ND will carry that market instead...

Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2012, 09:48:01 AM
Priceline is crazy. I've flown O'Hare to Seattle several times, and it's about four hours. Milwaukee to Spokane is a shorter flight.
The benefits of Gonzaga (over say, Dayton) outweigh a couple extra hours in the air once a year.

Seconded on the Priceline is crazy.  You should be booking on Orbitz, the unofficial official travel agency of MUScoop!

Quote from: LastWarrior on December 13, 2012, 02:56:01 PM
Seconded on the Priceline is crazy.  You should be booking on Orbitz, the unofficial official travel agency of MUScoop!

Personally, I am more of a Kayak guy.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2012, 02:51:38 PM
Butler should absolutely be included. They have shown a strong commitment to their program, increase name recognition, are associated with a top-30 media market in Indianapolis, and have shown a willingness to increase their level of competition by stepping up to the A-10.

Though I'm curious why Mike Brey would be the authority on this. Are we really confiding in Notre Dame over this? If so, is it because they might still be in play?

Thats why I posted it.  Maybe Brey has an insider information, had a slip of the tongue and said something he should not have. 

Quote from: nyg on December 13, 2012, 02:46:10 PM
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8742607/seven-catholic-schools-leaning-leaving-big-east-sources-say

In this updated article from Katz, it mentions a quote from Mike Brey who stated the C7 have reached out to:

Xavier
St. Louis
Dayton
Creighton
Gonzaga
St. Mary's

That would add up to 13 teams. 

I'm surprised that if St. Mary's has been reached out to that BYU hasn't been reached out to yet.  BYU has a more nationally recognized brand, better facilities, better tradition, and better resources than St. Mary's.

BYU averaged 18,714 people per game during the 2011-2012 men's basketball season.  While St. Mary's averaged just 3,178 people per game during the 2011-2012 men's basketball season.


http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/2012/Attendance.pdf (http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/2012/Attendance.pdf)

Quote from: lalumiere on December 13, 2012, 03:00:01 PM
I'm surprised that if St. Mary's has been reached out to that BYU hasn't been reached out to yet.  BYU has a more nationally recognized brand, better facilities, better tradition, and better resources than St. Mary's.

BYU averaged 18,714 people per game during the 2011-2012 men's basketball season.  While St. Mary's averaged just 3,178 people per game during the 2011-2012 men's basketball season.


http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/2012/Attendance.pdf (http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/2012/Attendance.pdf)

BYU has their own network.

There's 0% chance of BYU joining this conference. Their hope is the Pac12 goes to 16 and they somehow get an invite.

Quote from: lalumiere on December 13, 2012, 03:00:01 PM
I'm surprised that if St. Mary's has been reached out to that BYU hasn't been reached out to yet.  BYU has a more nationally recognized brand, better facilities, better tradition, and better resources than St. Mary's.

BYU averaged 18,714 people per game during the 2011-2012 men's basketball season.  While St. Mary's averaged just 3,178 people per game during the 2011-2012 men's basketball season.


http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/2012/Attendance.pdf (http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/2012/Attendance.pdf)

All the schools on Brey's list are:
- Catholic
- urban(ish)
- non-FBS programs

BYU is none of the above.

Quote from: lalumiere on December 13, 2012, 02:41:27 PM
Without a doubt, the goal of the new Big East conference should be to create the best basketball conference in the nation.  Certainly the conference should consist of nationally recognized basketball programs.  As a result, the conference should not be narrowly based on religious affiliation but should be based on the value that each prospective member will make towards the conference's goal of becoming the best basketball conference.

There are prospective members that have nationally recognized basketball programs who also have football programs.  For example, Memphis, UMass, and Temple all have strong nationally recognized basketball programs who also have football programs.  The new Big East could certainly add a few members like Memphis or UMass as full members, but they would have to house its football programs elsewhere.  Most likely, members who would have football would have to either compete as an independent in football or would have to join another conference as an associate member for football only.  In order to make sure basketball will remain prominent with in the conference, and that the new Big East will never sponsor football as a sport, there should be a bylaw established that no more than 25% of membership in the new Big East can have NCAA Division 1 FBS program.

Also, geography is an important part in constructing the new Big East conference but it's not as important as attracting the best basketball programs as possible.  Although, Gonzaga is geographically far from the current footprint of the Big East, Gonzaga has a nationally recognized, successful basketball program.  As a result, Gonzaga should be considered as well as another very strong national brand in basketball, BYU.  If Gonzaga would be added BYU could be added as well to provide a travel partner with Gonzaga while achieving the goal of becoming the best basketball conference in the nation.

Other prospective members that should be considered are the top members of the Atlantic 10 conference who have excellent basketball programs.  For example, Xavier, Butler, Saint Louis, and Dayton could certainly be considered.  Creighton, from the Missouri Valley Conference who also has a nationally prominent program could be a very attractive option as well.

Impossible from the first sentence.  The ACC is going to be the best basketball conference in the nation.  We're going to try to compete with Big10 & SEC for #2, and even that's a long shot.  UMass, BYU, Dayton, SLU, Creighton... These schools would be good additions, but they will not make the new Big East the best basketball conference or even #2

Quote from: reinko on December 13, 2012, 02:22:47 PM
Dude, chilLAX bro!

(http://www.betcheslovethis.com/files/uploads/images/sportsbros1.jpg)

As long as we keep a link to the east in the "New Big East" we'll have a shot at recruiting some dudes with LaXBro names http://www.brobible.com/sports/article/inside-lacrosse-announces-its-2013-all-name-team.

Quote from: TJ on December 13, 2012, 03:03:54 PM
Impossible from the first sentence.  The ACC is going to be the best basketball conference in the nation.  We're going to try to compete with Big10 & SEC for #2, and even that's a long shot.  UMass, BYU, Dayton, SLU, Creighton... These schools would be good additions, but they will not make the new Big East the best basketball conference or even #2

Conference re-alignment is in a lot of flux.  Who knows what members will still leave the ACC. 

Anyway, that doesn't change the objective of the new Big East to become the best possible basketball conference it can be. If you want to argue about semantics that's your prerogative.

Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 13, 2012, 02:49:21 PM
Do you think that conferences over-recruit just like schools do?  I wonder how heated one of those schools will get when they realize that they got recruited over :P

If the C7 doesn't "recruit over" the St Marys for the Butlers (just one example) my love for what's going on will be more than a little tempered. It's a diverse world - I want the strongest basketball conference, not 14 schools we can have home-and-home Kairos retreats with every year.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2012, 02:25:28 PM
It would be more like every other year. And, yeah, it is closer.
And I'm still not sure why a few extra hours on an airplane ONCE a year is seen as some sort of dealbreaker around here. I mean, you'd rather be in a conference with Dayton than Gonzaga because of a few extra hours on an airplane once every 12 months?

Except it's not just once a year.  It's once a year for men's and women's soccer, volleyball, men's and women's basketball, Track, Cross country, golf, etc.  Unless you are going to schedule things to basically play MU versus Gonzaga in all relevant sports on one weekend, that gets pricey.  I don't think it's time as much as cost.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2012, 03:15:10 PM
If the C7 doesn't "recruit over" the St Marys for the Butlers (just one example) my love for what's going on will be more than a little tempered. It's a diverse world - I want the strongest basketball conference, not 14 schools we can have home-and-home Kairos retreats with every year.

Exactly, in order to compete in major college basketball the new Big East has to be comprised of the best nationally relevant programs it can attract.  To select programs that are only Catholic colleges and universities, the conference would be excluding excellent private institutions which have other denominations and public institutions which would be narrow-minded and small.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 13, 2012, 03:15:10 PM
If the C7 doesn't "recruit over" the St Marys for the Butlers (just one example) my love for what's going on will be more than a little tempered. It's a diverse world - I want the strongest basketball conference, not 14 schools we can have home-and-home Kairos retreats with every year.

Ha!...Kairos

Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2012, 03:03:23 PM
All the schools on Brey's list are:
- Catholic
- urban(ish)
- non-FBS programs

BYU is none of the above.

The notion to exclude BYU because it's not catholic is just absurd. 

The point that BYU does have it's own network is a valid point, and is the number one reason why BYU is not a future Big East football member.

I smell a made-for-tv New Big East versus WCC East Coast/West Coast Battle ala Biggie and Tupac.

Quote
Brey also said the discussion among the Catholic schools was to make it a national Catholic conference with Xavier, Saint Louis, Dayton, Creighton, Gonzaga and possibly Saint Mary's as well.

Why the "possibly" on St. Mary's, Mike?  You seem pretty definitive on the first five... why single out SMC?


Going to jump to conclusions here, but I'm going with:  Brey essentially just admitted that ND to the CYO Conference is possible.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 13, 2012, 03:15:57 PM
Except it's not just once a year.  It's once a year for men's and women's soccer, volleyball, men's and women's basketball, Track, Cross country, golf, etc.  Unless you are going to schedule things to basically play MU versus Gonzaga in all relevant sports on one weekend, that gets pricey.  I don't think it's time as much as cost.

It's also more than once per year for Gonzaga to have to travel east. A lot more.

Quote from: MDMU04 on December 13, 2012, 03:33:40 PM
It's also more than once per year for Gonzaga to have to travel east. A lot more.

It seems like the Gonzaga talk began with them expressing interest, specifically I believe Mark Few said something on his radio show about it this week. If Gonzaga wants to come and feels it isn't cost-prohibitive, I say let them come. In terms of name recognition, they are would undoubtedly be one of the three biggest-name schools in this conference along with us and Georgetown.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 13, 2012, 03:15:57 PM
Except it's not just once a year.  It's once a year for men's and women's soccer, volleyball, men's and women's basketball, Track, Cross country, golf, etc.  Unless you are going to schedule things to basically play MU versus Gonzaga in all relevant sports on one weekend, that gets pricey.  I don't think it's time as much as cost.

I think you overestimate the cost.
Let's, just for giggles, say each team has a travel entourage of 20. For some it will be more (basketball, soccer), some less (tennis, golf), but let's average it out at 20.
Just checking fares online, the difference between a MKE-Spokane round-trip fare and a MKE-Dayton round-trip fare is $240 per ticket. Multiply that by 20 tickets and 10 teams (no lacrosse), we're talking $48,000 more a year.
That's your entire difference.
MU's total athletic budget was $26.5 million last year, meaning the added travel cost we're talking here would less than .2 percent of the total budget.
I think it's doable. And I think MU possibly even makes up that $48,000 a year by selling an annual home game with Gonzaga instead of Dayton.

* I realize that this is far from an ideal comparison. I can't factor in things like group discounts, benefits of booking way early, time of year, etc., though I suppose those benefits would be relatively equal regardless of destination. I'm just trying to lay out a thumbnail sketch of how the travel costs, relative to MU's athletic budget, are not remotely significant.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 13, 2012, 03:15:57 PM
Except it's not just once a year.  It's once a year for men's and women's soccer, volleyball, men's and women's basketball, Track, Cross country, golf, etc.  Unless you are going to schedule things to basically play MU versus Gonzaga in all relevant sports on one weekend, that gets pricey.  I don't think it's time as much as cost.

Not all sports do "home and home" type things.  There isn't college duel meets in Cross Country or Golf or Tennis, just a huge conference meet.  If you offer to Gonzaga they are going to have to make it work with their budget because they are the ones traveling out east all the time.  The overall impact on us and other schools will be minimal.

Quote from: mu03eng on December 13, 2012, 03:15:57 PM
Except it's not just once a year.  It's once a year for men's and women's soccer, volleyball, men's and women's basketball, Track, Cross country, golf, etc.  Unless you are going to schedule things to basically play MU versus Gonzaga in all relevant sports on one weekend, that gets pricey.  I don't think it's time as much as cost.

Not every sport plays Gonzaga every year, and not every sport will play Gonzaga on the road often.

There are definitely some logistical costs to consider, but the costs probably aren't high enough to automatically DQ Gonzaga.

Crazy Conspiracy Theory Alert:

The whole concept of the C7 is picking up steam nationwide, and the media is already throwing out terms like "powerhouse" to describe a conference that hasn't even been formed.  No fewer than a half dozen teams are suspected to be candidates for an invitation, any of which add value and cachet (unlike Tulane) to a to-be-formed conference.  Four months ago, this was a bad idea.  Today, it's the best idea since the three-point line.  Is it unreasonable to think that this wasn't foreseen six months ago?

Sure, the Big East was doomed, but could we have got to the current scenario - where the C7 is basically in control - if the Big East only lost one team a year for the next 4 years?  If a couple teams depart and a couple are added here and there, would the C7 ever be in control, or worse, might it lose what little control it had?

Just think.... would this have been possible if not for our good friends, the Domers?  Remember when Notre Dame - perhaps the most prestigious university in the Big East - announced its intent to leave?  What was the reaction from any of the C7 schools?  Where was the outrage?  Where was the, "dang it Notre Dame, you screwed us royally... again?"  Frankly, the response was pretty congenial.  Good luck, best wishes, do what's best, and the like.  Maybe that was the Catholic heritage of the C7 taking form, remembering that while we may hate our brother, he's still our brother.

Maybe, just maybe, Notre Dame has been in on this scheme all along.  Perhaps they have no intention of joining the ACC.  How do you blow up the Big East without blowing it up and make it look like an accident.  Easy --- get the least likely member of the C8 to set the first charge.  And when once the building has deteriorated to the point of being condemned, nobody will blame the other seven when they have no other choice but to simply implode the thing.  Beyond that, they'll be honored and applauded for doing so.

"You know, Notre Dame, just when I think you couldn't sink any lower, you go out and do something like this.... and TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF."

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2012, 03:37:25 PM
It seems like the Gonzaga talk began with them expressing interest, specifically I believe Mark Few said something on his radio show about it this week. If Gonzaga wants to come and feels it isn't cost-prohibitive, I say let them come. In terms of name recognition, they are would undoubtedly be one of the three biggest-name schools in this conference along with us and Georgetown.

I totally agree and would welcome them with open arms. I have to believe that Few was planting the seed for some sort of travel cost sharing arrangement as a part of the new league policies. I would also have no problem with that. I think that Gonzaga would be one of the conference anchors, and it would also give them the opportunity to play a lot more of their games in front of the eastern seaboard press and eliminate the perception of east coast bias against their program.

Back to reality....

1) Xavier is a no-brainer.  (Holy crap... could this be the first time Scoop has been unanimous about anything?)

2) If you're going with the CYO plan, Gonzaga is a must-add.  If you're going with the urban basketball plan... Butler is a must-add.

3) I'd take Creighton, VCU, St. Louis and Dayton in that order.

4) I'd take SMC only under the CYO plan and then only if ND is the 14th team.

5) If CYO, I would give future consideration (i.e. not initially, but if all goes well after 2-3 years) to Santa Clara, San Fran, LMU, Holy Cross, Joe's, Bonnies, Fordham, Portland and Seattle only on the condition that they make substantial commitments to their respective programs, monetary and otherwise.

Quote from: Benny B on December 13, 2012, 04:07:05 PM
Crazy Conspiracy Theory Alert:

The whole concept of the C7 is picking up steam nationwide, and the media is already throwing out terms like "powerhouse" to describe a conference that hasn't even been formed.  No fewer than a half dozen teams are suspected to be candidates for an invitation, any of which add value and cachet (unlike Tulane) to a to-be-formed conference.  Four months ago, this was a bad idea.  Today, it's the best idea since the three-point line.  Is it unreasonable to think that this wasn't foreseen six months ago?

Sure, the Big East was doomed, but could we have got to the current scenario - where the C7 is basically in control - if the Big East only lost one team a year for the next 4 years?  If a couple teams depart and a couple are added here and there, would the C7 ever be in control, or worse, might it lose what little control it had?

Just think.... would this have been possible if not for our good friends, the Domers?  Remember when Notre Dame - perhaps the most prestigious university in the Big East - announced its intent to leave?  What was the reaction from any of the C7 schools?  Where was the outrage?  Where was the, "dang it Notre Dame, you screwed us royally... again?"  Frankly, the response was pretty congenial.  Good luck, best wishes, do what's best, and the like.  Maybe that was the Catholic heritage of the C7 taking form, remembering that while we may hate our brother, he's still our brother.

Maybe, just maybe, Notre Dame has been in on this scheme all along.  Perhaps they have no intention of joining the ACC.  How do you blow up the Big East without blowing it up and make it look like an accident.  Easy --- get the least likely member of the C8 to set the first charge.  And when once the building has deteriorated to the point of being condemned, nobody will blame the other seven when they have no other choice but to simply implode the thing.  Beyond that, they'll be honored and applauded for doing so.

"You know, Notre Dame, just when I think you couldn't sink any lower, you go out and do something like this.... and TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF."

Would have used teal on that one, B.  Imagine the lawsuit (fraud, RICO, punitive damages) and the damage to reputation for all involved when that leaked.  But, I like the idea of the happy accident.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2012, 09:36:48 AM
Dayton? Really?
For the life of me, I can't figure why some see Dayton as more attractive than Gonzaga. In every important measure - other than distance, which I don't see as being all that important - Gonzaga is better. Better team. Better national profile. Better coach. Better market (in that Gonzaga is the Catholic program in the Pacific Northwest).

Not better in term of travel. These teams would be for all sports.

Quote from: mupanther on December 13, 2012, 05:34:03 PM
Not better in term of travel. These teams would be for all sports.

Someone already did some quick calculations and the difference between traveling all sports to Dayton and Spokane is about $48,000 per year, which is less than 0.2% of Marquette's annual athletic budget. If the Zags want to come in all sports and suck up their end of travel costs, it is absolutely 100% worth it to have them over Dayton every day of the week, twice on Sundays, and four times on Leap Day.

I think Gonzaga would be terrific, but to far out of the way.

I still like Memphis, but not catholic with Gonzaga

Quote from: Earl Tatum on December 13, 2012, 05:49:28 PM
I still like Memphis, but not catholic with Gonzaga

Sorry, but no schools with a football team. Only exception to this: Notre Dame.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2012, 05:36:19 PM
Someone already did some quick calculations and the difference between traveling all sports to Dayton and Spokane is about $48,000 per year, which is less than 0.2% of Marquette's annual athletic budget. If the Zags want to come in all sports and suck up their end of travel costs, it is absolutely 100% worth it to have them over Dayton every day of the week, twice on Sundays, and four times on Leap Day.

There is a cost in hours, productivity, etc, however.  Four hours on a plane vs 1 hour, then the return trip.  University Presidents, at least when I was in the department, do harp on how many hours \ days they are away from school. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 13, 2012, 05:54:58 PM
There is a cost in hours, productivity, etc, however.  Four hours on a plane vs 1 hour, then the return trip.  University Presidents, at least when I was in the department, do harp on how many hours \ days they are away from school. 

Kids can study and do other coursework on a plane. Heck, send a tutor along if need be.
I just have a hard time believing a few extra hours on a plane once a year really ought to be the difference between a perennial top 25/30 team like Gonzaga or a team like Dayton.
Nothing against Dayton ... but they're not Gonzaga (regardless of what UDPride happens to believe).

nm

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on December 13, 2012, 11:49:07 AM
St Mary's should only be invited if they are seriously considering Gonzaga.  Also why is nobody considering Belmont? They're traditionally really good and fit in the geography plus I'm sure they be desperate to get into this league

one of St. Mary's, Santa Clara, and San Francisco to go with Gonzaga.

Quote from: Stone Cold on December 13, 2012, 06:07:06 PM

I love Nashville. Sign me up

(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f1/Seth_Hikara/Wrestler_excited.gif)

OK, so, who are the 4 people that don't want Xavier, and why?

I don't see Gonzaga as a viable option.  Not from our end, from theirs.  Spokane isn't Seattle -- flying in and out of there is expensive.  For them to afford 7-9 conference road games a year in this league -- not to mention for their other sports -- would be rough.  Also, we've said our guys could handle the four hour flights out west, but I don't think Gonzaga or Providence/Georgetown/Villanova/SH/SJ would be too thrilled with 12-hour round trip travel in conference.  All this would likely come at the cost of Gonzaga's current OOC scheduling philosophy.  Games against Eastern Washington, Boise St, and Idaho don't do much to bolster their non-conference resume, which is the opposite of what most of us want to see if they were to join.

Wouldn't bet against air flight becoming more efficient 25-50 years from now.     I'm talking supersonic Jumbo Super Duper Jets.

Quote from: PDXtoCHIviaMU on December 13, 2012, 06:36:10 PM
I don't see Gonzaga as a viable option.  Not from our end, from theirs.  Spokane isn't Seattle -- flying in and out of there is expensive.  For them to afford 7-9 conference road games a year in this league -- not to mention for their other sports -- would be rough.

I think this ignores one very simple fact: Gonzaga is in Spokane and a member of the West Coast Conference. Does anyone believe their soccer team is taking a bus to any of the three road games they play 876 miles away in San Francisco? Or maybe we think the baseball team is driving 764 miles to Provo for games against BYU? Or is it the rowing team, packing up the boats for their 1,325 mile drive to San Diego?

Gonzaga's sports teams already all have to fly to their road games. This is nothing new for them. Some of the trips would be a little longer, but if you batch it together it wouldn't be that bad. Maybe they make two to three significant trips per year while catching a few road games on each trip east.

Not only is Marquette making a trip to Gonzaga barely more significant than Marquette making a trip to Dayton, but it wouldn't be that big a deal for them either. You fly out on Thursday morning for a night game at Milwaukee, take a bus to Chicago for the Saturday game against DePaul, then finish that trip with a Monday game in Cincinnati against Xavier. Later in the season you make the deep east trip, again a five-day trip encompassing visits to DC for Georgetown, New York for St. John's, and Providence for the Friars. Beyond that, three road games mixed in at Creighton, St. Mary's, and St. Louis (or whomever) and your entire road schedule is done with only 2 big trips.

It's really not as big a deal as people make it out to be.

Quote from: Groin_pull on December 13, 2012, 05:53:42 PM
Sorry, but no schools with a football team. Only exception to this: Notre Dame.

I think the new Big East would be served well to at least consider basketball centric programs who happen to have football.  For example, Memphis, Cincinnati, Temple, and UMass could provide tremendous value with its nationally recognized basketball programs.

Prospective members who have football would certainly have to house its football programs else where because the new Big East will not sponsor football.  These members would have to compete in football as:

• an independent


• an associate member of a conference which sponsors football

Quote from: buckchuckler on December 13, 2012, 06:27:47 PM
OK, so, who are the 4 people that don't want Xavier, and why?

There's only one reason not to want Xavier and that's if you think that the league won't take Xavier and Dayton and you want Dayton instead.  BTW, I'm just giving the reason, not agreeing with it.  I voted for Xavier, but not Dayton.  I left the league at ten with Xavier, Butler and St. Louis as the adds.

Quote from: Benny B on December 13, 2012, 04:07:05 PM
Crazy Conspiracy Theory Alert:

The whole concept of the C7 is picking up steam nationwide, and the media is already throwing out terms like "powerhouse" to describe a conference that hasn't even been formed.  No fewer than a half dozen teams are suspected to be candidates for an invitation, any of which add value and cachet (unlike Tulane) to a to-be-formed conference.  Four months ago, this was a bad idea.  Today, it's the best idea since the three-point line.  Is it unreasonable to think that this wasn't foreseen six months ago?

Sure, the Big East was doomed, but could we have got to the current scenario - where the C7 is basically in control - if the Big East only lost one team a year for the next 4 years?  If a couple teams depart and a couple are added here and there, would the C7 ever be in control, or worse, might it lose what little control it had?

Just think.... would this have been possible if not for our good friends, the Domers?  Remember when Notre Dame - perhaps the most prestigious university in the Big East - announced its intent to leave?  What was the reaction from any of the C7 schools?  Where was the outrage?  Where was the, "dang it Notre Dame, you screwed us royally... again?"  Frankly, the response was pretty congenial.  Good luck, best wishes, do what's best, and the like.  Maybe that was the Catholic heritage of the C7 taking form, remembering that while we may hate our brother, he's still our brother.

Maybe, just maybe, Notre Dame has been in on this scheme all along.  Perhaps they have no intention of joining the ACC.  How do you blow up the Big East without blowing it up and make it look like an accident.  Easy --- get the least likely member of the C8 to set the first charge.  And when once the building has deteriorated to the point of being condemned, nobody will blame the other seven when they have no other choice but to simply implode the thing.  Beyond that, they'll be honored and applauded for doing so.

"You know, Notre Dame, just when I think you couldn't sink any lower, you go out and do something like this.... and TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF."

You forgot the most important part:  Larry Williams, ND alum, masterminding the entire evil plan.  Mwa-ha-ha!  (rubs hands together)

Quote from: lalumiere on December 13, 2012, 07:04:32 PM
I think the new Big East would be served well to at least consider basketball centric programs who happen to have football.  For example, Memphis, Cincinnati, Temple, and UMass could provide tremendous value with its nationally recognized basketball programs.

If we do, I would say there are two conditions. First, they sign on to a non-negotiable $30M exit fee that allows them to leave with one year's notice. While that seems dangerous because they can leave quickly, it should also ensure they actually pay the full amount and there won't be a long drawn-out saga over their departure.

Second, they agree to forfeiture of all NCAA shares earned while in the league as well as for 10 years after their departure, as well as sacrificing 10% of any media deal they receive in a new conference for 10 years. Which means if a conference adds them, not only do they give us additional money for years to offset their departure but their added value as a basketball program is greatly depleted.

If they want to agree to that, take them. Otherwise, I'm warming to the idea of telling all the football schools to go screw.

Quote from: buckchuckler on December 13, 2012, 06:27:47 PM
OK, so, who are the 4 people that don't want Xavier, and why?

Just find the three Scoopers with the fattest fingers. The fourth is UDPride.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2012, 07:00:23 PM
I think this ignores one very simple fact: Gonzaga is in Spokane and a member of the West Coast Conference. Does anyone believe their soccer team is taking a bus to any of the three road games they play 876 miles away in San Francisco? Or maybe we think the baseball team is driving 764 miles to Provo for games against BYU? Or is it the rowing team, packing up the boats for their 1,325 mile drive to San Diego?

Gonzaga's sports teams already all have to fly to their road games. This is nothing new for them. Some of the trips would be a little longer, but if you batch it together it wouldn't be that bad. Maybe they make two to three significant trips per year while catching a few road games on each trip east.

Not only is Marquette making a trip to Gonzaga barely more significant than Marquette making a trip to Dayton, but it wouldn't be that big a deal for them either. You fly out on Thursday morning for a night game at Milwaukee, take a bus to Chicago for the Saturday game against DePaul, then finish that trip with a Monday game in Cincinnati against Xavier. Later in the season you make the deep east trip, again a five-day trip encompassing visits to DC for Georgetown, New York for St. John's, and Providence for the Friars. Beyond that, three road games mixed in at Creighton, St. Mary's, and St. Louis (or whomever) and your entire road schedule is done with only 2 big trips.

It's really not as big a deal as people make it out to be.

It's a bigger deal than you think.  True, they're flying already, but it's quick trips to Portland, San Fran, LA, all regional flights.  For kicks, compare the cost of a commercial ticket out of Spokane to San Diego -- their current far-flung conference affiliate -- against one from Spokane to D.C.  On average, that's a 60%-80% cost hike.  On top of that, would you want to endure a five-day, three-game, four hundred mile bus trip bookended by six-hour flights?  What are the odds they finish that swing 2-1 vs 1-2?  Same goes for the Midwest trip.  I just think at they end of the day when their president and AD look at the numbers, it'll be "Thanks, but no thanks."

They fly commercial?  I kind of doubt it.

Eh, that was the "for kicks" part.  Figured it'd just be a good measuring stick.  And I lied: that was comparing D.C. to LAX, not San Diego.  Needless to say, their travel costs would spike.

Quote from: PDXtoCHIviaMU on December 13, 2012, 07:38:59 PM
It's a bigger deal than you think.  True, they're flying already, but it's quick trips to Portland, San Fran, LA, all regional flights.  For kicks, compare the cost of a commercial ticket out of Spokane to San Diego -- their current far-flung conference affiliate -- against one from Spokane to D.C.  On average, that's a 60%-80% cost hike.  On top of that, would you want to endure a five-day, three-game, four hundred mile bus trip bookended by six-hour flights?  What are the odds they finish that swing 2-1 vs 1-2?  Same goes for the Midwest trip.  I just think at they end of the day when their president and AD look at the numbers, it'll be "Thanks, but no thanks."

Spokane to LA is a regional flight?
In that case, so is St. Louis to Boston.
Because it's about the same mileage.

Quote from: buckchuckler on December 13, 2012, 06:27:47 PM
OK, so, who are the 4 people that don't want Xavier, and why?

Their inferiority complex over the DiUlio departure.

Not considering Gonzaga is small minded. You can't have a Catholic Conference focused on strictly basketball and not have Gonzaga. It's one thing if Gonzaga turns down the offer, but I strongly believe they would jump at the chance. Gonzaga as a university gets more eyeballs focused on it, more revenue than what they are getting from the WCC. Their university can build a national brand, they'd be crazy not to want to join.

This isn't 30 years ago, 20 years ago, times have changed. Hell, San Diego Friggin State was about to join the Big East, my god.

Whatever this new conference is going to be, it has to build a brand, it has to market itself. The C7, and in my opinion, add Gonzaga and Xavier, and that's it.

9 teams, true round robin 16 game schedule. From a TV contract standpoint, adding SLU, Creighton, Butler, etc, does nothing. Your name brand teams are the C7 and Gonzaga, Xavier adds a solid team.

Fewer teams=more TV revenue, and more NCAA units revenue.

Quote from: MUDish on December 13, 2012, 08:31:25 PM
Not considering Gonzaga is small minded. You can't have a Catholic Conference focused on strictly basketball and not have Gonzaga. It's one thing if Gonzaga turns down the offer, but I strongly believe they would jump at the chance. Gonzaga as a university gets more eyeballs focused on it, more revenue than what they are getting from the WCC. Their university can build a national brand, they'd be crazy not to want to join.

This isn't 30 years ago, 20 years ago, times have changed. Hell, San Diego Friggin State was about to join the Big East, my god.

Whatever this new conference is going to be, it has to build a brand, it has to market itself. The C7, and in my opinion, add Gonzaga and Xavier, and that's it.

9 teams, true round robin 16 game schedule. From a TV contract standpoint, adding SLU, Creighton, Butler, etc, does nothing. Your name brand teams are the C7 and Gonzaga, Xavier adds a solid team.

Fewer teams=more TV revenue, and more NCAA units revenue.

Fewer teams does not mean more TV revenue.  Gotta think on the margins bro.

The most interesting thing out of this is it will be a traveling conference tournament.

Quote from: PDXtoCHIviaMU on December 13, 2012, 07:38:59 PM
It's a bigger deal than you think.  True, they're flying already, but it's quick trips to Portland, San Fran, LA, all regional flights.  For kicks, compare the cost of a commercial ticket out of Spokane to San Diego -- their current far-flung conference affiliate -- against one from Spokane to D.C.  On average, that's a 60%-80% cost hike.  On top of that, would you want to endure a five-day, three-game, four hundred mile bus trip bookended by six-hour flights?  What are the odds they finish that swing 2-1 vs 1-2?  Same goes for the Midwest trip.  I just think at they end of the day when their president and AD look at the numbers, it'll be "Thanks, but no thanks."

60-80%? Not even close. Flights to San Diego run around $550-600. To DC it's around $750-800. That's a lot closer to 30% than it is to 80%. And something tells me they will have $2M reasons per year to make those trips. And I highly doubt the WCC TV deal comes anywhere close to what they'd get for joining us. Besides, we could always take them as a basketball-only member. It would more than balance out.

Quote from: Warriors10 on December 13, 2012, 08:33:05 PM
Fewer teams does not mean more TV revenue.  Gotta think on the margins bro.

The most interesting thing out of this is it will be a traveling conference tournament.

Huh?

TV Contract / Number of teams= Split per, it's rather simple.

Just looking at the UCONN blog comments from this story. Some of these comentors are hilariously hurt that the Catholic 7 arent letting them in as a first choice. Can you really blame us?

http://www.theuconnblog.com/2012/12/13/3762958/catholic-schools-leave-big-east-uconn-acc (http://www.theuconnblog.com/2012/12/13/3762958/catholic-schools-leave-big-east-uconn-acc)

Quote from: MUDish on December 13, 2012, 08:47:53 PM
Huh?

TV Contract / Number of teams= Split per, it's rather simple.

It's also rather simple that by adding the right team your TV contract can become larger and your payout can increase..

Quote from: Warriors10 on December 13, 2012, 08:50:08 PM
It's also rather simple that by adding the right team your TV contract can become larger and your payout can increase..

Ok, humor me. Who are you adding that is going to increase TV revenue?

Quote from: MUDish on December 13, 2012, 08:47:53 PM
Huh?

TV Contract / Number of teams= Split per, it's rather simple.

ESPN/NBC would pay more for more games and content. Obviously, they get a discount as we add more teams.

Also, have to add in revenue from the NCAA tourney and it helps the conference when the good teams have bad years. If we squeeze an extra 2 teams into the tourney it diversifies the risk.

Quote from: MUDish on December 13, 2012, 08:55:32 PM
Ok, humor me. Who are you adding that is going to increase TV revenue?

I am just saying that fewer teams does not always equal more money.  None of us know what the C7 is being told on TV revenue prospects with different league models, so you don't know if you will get more money with a 9 team model than a 12 team model depending on what the teams are.

Quote from: Warriors10 on December 13, 2012, 08:59:55 PM
I am just saying that fewer teams does not always equal more money.  None of us know what the C7 is being told on TV revenue prospects with different league models, so you don't know if you will get more money with a 9 team model than a 12 team model depending on what the teams are.

You would have to think a extra round of conference tourney play would bring in some money.

Horrible at math but 9 teams at 16 game conference schedules should be 72 games. An extra 3 teams would bring a third more games bring the total to 96.

If it's NBCSports, they need content even if it is water-downed a bit.

If you take the C7, and add Gonzaga and Xavier, in my opinion, there is no one else worth adding.

If nothing else has been learned from the chaos, more isn't always worth it. If you're going to have a niche brand, keep it simple. Don't add Butler or SLU, just to add teams.

9 teams, gets you a 16 game round robin schedule. Build strong rivalries out of it. Adding SLU, Butler, Dayton doesn't add much.

Revenue is going to go down as it is without FBS money coming in. Why needlessly split revenue with 2 or 3 more schools when you don't have to? Every team you add gets an additional share.

Let's say a contract with NBC is worth $9 million, just for pure number sake. Is adding 3 teams in SLU, Dayton, Butler going to justify NBC to up their ante to $12 million? No f'n way.

Quote from: MUDish on December 13, 2012, 09:08:30 PM
If you take the C7, and add Gonzaga and Xavier, in my opinion, there is no one else worth adding.

If nothing else has been learned from the chaos, more isn't always worth it. If you're going to have a niche brand, keep it simple. Don't add Butler or SLU, just to add teams.

9 teams, gets you a 16 game round robin schedule. Build strong rivalries out of it. Adding SLU, Butler, Dayton doesn't add much.

Revenue is going to go down as it is without FBS money coming in. Why needlessly split revenue with 2 or 3 more schools when you don't have to? Every team you add gets an additional share.

Let's say a contract with NBC is worth $9 million, just for pure number sake. Is adding 3 teams in SLU, Dayton, Butler going to justify NBC to up their ante to $12 million? No f'n way.

St. Louis and Butler each add credible programs in large markets that likely would appeal to the networks, which matters a lot.

Quote from: MUDish on December 13, 2012, 09:08:30 PM
If you take the C7, and add Gonzaga and Xavier, in my opinion, there is no one else worth adding.

If nothing else has been learned from the chaos, more isn't always worth it. If you're going to have a niche brand, keep it simple. Don't add Butler or SLU, just to add teams.

9 teams, gets you a 16 game round robin schedule. Build strong rivalries out of it. Adding SLU, Butler, Dayton doesn't add much.

Revenue is going to go down as it is without FBS money coming in. Why needlessly split revenue with 2 or 3 more schools when you don't have to? Every team you add gets an additional share.

Let's say a contract with NBC is worth $9 million, just for pure number sake. Is adding 3 teams in SLU, Dayton, Butler going to justify NBC to up their ante to $12 million? No f'n way.

It's your opinion, but you aren't the one signing the checks so it doesn't matter.

Quote from: MUDish on December 13, 2012, 09:08:30 PM
If you take the C7, and add Gonzaga and Xavier, in my opinion, there is no one else worth adding.

If nothing else has been learned from the chaos, more isn't always worth it. If you're going to have a niche brand, keep it simple. Don't add Butler or SLU, just to add teams.

9 teams, gets you a 16 game round robin schedule. Build strong rivalries out of it. Adding SLU, Butler, Dayton doesn't add much.

I don't agree.  Having Saint Louis and Indianapolis will be really key for this new league.  Even outside of the pure tv revenue per school standpoint just having more eyes on this league will be good in the long run.

Butler adds a very good sports market for TV, a very good basketball market for the league and a very good program.

If that adds up to "not very much," then why even bother having a league?

Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2012, 09:10:58 PM
St. Louis and Butler each add credible programs in large markets that likely would appeal to the networks, which matters a lot.

It comes down to pure economics. If adding them generates more revenue than it would at 9 teams, take them by all means. I understand the television markets involved, but let's not kid ourselves, St. Louis (21) and Indy (25) aren't huge markets or huge alumni bases to draw from.

It's not just TV revenue, TV revenue is secondary to NCAA units. If you add those teams, and they are 1 and done, or worse, not going, you're needlessly sharing more money.

This shouldn't be that hard to figure out. You have a niche brand, your revenue stream is going to go down. You need to control revenues as best you can to your ability. I'm not going to share my pay check with an intern who created an RFQ for me.

Quote from: MU82 on December 13, 2012, 09:17:33 PM
Butler adds a very good sports market for TV, a very good basketball market for the league and a very good program.

If that adds up to "not very much," then why even bother having a league?

"Very good sports market for TV"? You do know it's 25th overall in the US, right?

Indy=The NYC...of Indiana.

Any insight on what is more profitable when comparing length of conference schedule versus buying games?

Quote from: MUDish on December 13, 2012, 09:20:39 PM
"Very good sports market for TV"? You do know it's 25th overall in the US, right?

Indy=The NYC...of Indiana.

Didn't you watch Hoosiers?  The entire state listens to the radio for games at Hinkle Fieldhouse.

I swear to God.... Buzz better walk the guys into Hinkle next year and measure the height of the rim and distance to the free throw line.

Quote from: Benny B on December 13, 2012, 09:24:02 PM
Didn't you watch Hoosiers?  The entire state listens to the radio for games at Hinkle Fieldhouse.

I swear to God.... Buzz better walk the guys into Hinkle next year and measure the height of the rim and distance to the free throw line.

That better be video taped.

Quote from: MUDish on December 13, 2012, 09:08:30 PM
say a contract with NBC is worth $9 million, just for pure number sake. Is adding 3 teams in SLU, Dayton, Butler going to justify NBC to up their ante to $12 million? No f'n way.

Besides the media market issue, still a good chance yes.  9 teams playing 16 games is 72 games.  12 teams playing 18 is 108, or a 50% increase in content.  If it's quality content (adding worthwhile teams in good markets), absolutely they would pay 33% more.  It's when you add another four, adding lackluster markets or redundant markets and only giving the network one chance to air  MU-Georgetown rather than two with a home-and-home because each one now has to play a bad team that you see the size issues really come about.

Quote from: chapman on December 13, 2012, 09:34:47 PM
Besides the media market issue, still a good chance yes.  9 teams playing 16 games is 72 games.  12 teams playing 18 is 108, or a 50% increase in content.  If it's quality content (adding worthwhile teams in good markets), absolutely they would pay 33% more.  It's when you add another four, adding lackluster markets or redundant markets and only giving the network one chance to air  MU-Georgetown rather than two with a home-and-home because each one now has to play a bad team that you see the size issues really come about.

That's also trusting NBC or ESPN (whoever) is going to want that increase in content. What markets are you going to be drawing from that would cause this 33% bump? St. Louis, Indy, and Dayton?

If I'm a media partner, I'd much rather have two of Georgetown/MU, Villanova/Gonzaga than SLU/Providence, or Dayton/St. Johns. I understand your content argument, but you have to go into this conference going with quality over quantity.

Quote from: MUDish on December 13, 2012, 09:20:39 PM
"Very good sports market for TV"? You do know it's 25th overall in the US, right?

Indy=The NYC...of Indiana.

And 25th overall is bigger than Cincy (34th) or Milwaukee (35th). Yet no one's arguing Xavier or our inclusion.

Butler brings more than just Indy, though. They are one of the ultimate underdog teams and while much of the state seems to rally behind them, so too does a portion of the country. And it isn't like they just showed up. They have 10 tourney appearances in the past 15 years and 2 Sweet 16s in that time to go along with their back-to-back Finals runs. They are a very worthy add.

I think Dish is on the right track with the goal of decreasing mouths to feed and increasing NCAA performance.  Xavier is a given but I would prefer Butler over Gonzaga on the basis of travel costs (given that this will affect all sports).

Given that the future of the ACC is anything put predictable I think it would be worthwhile to save a place for ND as they may prefer a new home for their non-football teams in a couple years.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2012, 10:04:07 PM
And 25th overall is bigger than Cincy (34th) or Milwaukee (35th). Yet no one's arguing Xavier or our inclusion.

Butler brings more than just Indy, though. They are one of the ultimate underdog teams and while much of the state seems to rally behind them, so too does a portion of the country. And it isn't like they just showed up. They have 10 tourney appearances in the past 15 years and 2 Sweet 16s in that time to go along with their back-to-back Finals runs. They are a very worthy add.

Take Milwaukee out, because Milwaukee is already in. Xavier is in because they are the number 1 get.

Take all the "underdog" and "rally behind them" crap out of the equation. That's all fine and dandy, but we are talking about money. If they can continue to make the tourney and make runs, then invite them by all means. Passion and underdog crap doesn't matter. Everyone needs to read between the lines here, all of this is about making cash. Read Larry Williams comments, he gets it.

Quote from: MUDish on December 13, 2012, 10:15:39 PM
Take Milwaukee out, because Milwaukee is already in. Xavier is in because they are the number 1 get.

Take all the "underdog" and "rally behind them" crap out of the equation. That's all fine and dandy, but we are talking about money. If they can continue to make the tourney and make runs, then invite them by all means. Passion and underdog crap doesn't matter. Everyone needs to read between the lines here, all of this is about making cash. Read Larry Williams comments, he gets it.

Read the lines I wrote. Butler has been doing this at a high level for awhile. They have made a solid commitment to their basketball program. They have already moved up to a better conference and have the ability to move up again. And as much as it was a lucky shot, they did just beat us a couple weeks ago.

Market size. Commitment to the sport. Top-notch young coach. Brand name appeal. Sustained success. They have absolutely everything we want in a program. It's almost laughable that Xavier would be a bigger get than Butler. Both are highly desirable.

If they are going 10-team, give me Butler, Xavier and Gonzaga or give me death.

Xavier, Butler, Gonzaga.  Cap it.  Home-and-home against everyone.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2012, 10:21:04 PM
Read the lines I wrote. Butler has been doing this at a high level for awhile. They have made a solid commitment to their basketball program. They have already moved up to a better conference and have the ability to move up again. And as much as it was a lucky shot, they did just beat us a couple weeks ago.

Market size. Commitment to the sport. Top-notch young coach. Brand name appeal. Sustained success. They have absolutely everything we want in a program. It's almost laughable that Xavier would be a bigger get than Butler. Both are highly desirable.

Xavier is #1 because it is Catholic, Butler is not. This isn't anti-Butler, I'd much rather have a 9 team league with Gonzaga and Xavier and that's it. If Butler can add economic value (or any other school), I'm all for them being included. I don't like having another mouth to feed because that school is "close by" or "an underdog". At the end of the day, that doesn't make up for lost revenue. This chaos was started because college football (and basketball to a lesser extent) are huge businesses.

Quote from: brewcity77 on December 13, 2012, 10:04:07 PM
And 25th overall is bigger than Cincy (34th) or Milwaukee (35th). Yet no one's arguing Xavier or our inclusion.

Butler brings more than just Indy, though. They are one of the ultimate underdog teams and while much of the state seems to rally behind them, so too does a portion of the country. And it isn't like they just showed up. They have 10 tourney appearances in the past 15 years and 2 Sweet 16s in that time to go along with their back-to-back Finals runs. They are a very worthy add.

Thank you, brew.

Oh, and how big a market is Spokane?

Make no mistake, I like Gonzaga and I want them in our league, but I'm not sure how somebody can suck up to Gonzaga and rip Butler. Last time I looked at my scorecard, Gonzaga didn't go to the national title game in consecutive years very recently.

Quote from: MU82 on December 13, 2012, 10:30:55 PM
Thank you, brew.

Oh, and how big a market is Spokane?

Make no mistake, I like Gonzaga and I want them in our league, but I'm not sure how somebody can suck up to Gonzaga and rip Butler. Last time I looked at my scorecard, Gonzaga didn't go to the national title game in consecutive years very recently.

Sigh.

We might as well invite George Mason then with this small minded thinking.

Quote from: MUDish on December 13, 2012, 10:29:37 PMXavier is #1 because it is Catholic, Butler is not. This isn't anti-Butler, I'd much rather have a 9 team league with Gonzaga and Xavier and that's it. If Butler can add economic value (or any other school), I'm all for them being included. I don't like having another mouth to feed because that school is "close by" or "an underdog". At the end of the day, that doesn't make up for lost revenue. This chaos was started because college football (and basketball to a lesser extent) are huge businesses.

You're contradicting yourself. You can't say this is about money and then say you'd rather take Xavier over Butler because they are Catholic. It's about money, not denomination.

And I don't want Butler because they are an underdog. But their underdog status has helped them build a national cachet. Much in the same way Gonzaga has used their underdog status to become a school that sells more of their athletic gear nationwide than Marquette. These schools have national recognition, as much or more than we do. I don't care how they got it, but I am damn sure I want it in our conference.

And Gonzaga isn't just about Spokane. They deliver a completely different timezone. They are THE Catholic university on the West Coast. They bring a demographic no one else can offer and, along with possibly St. Mary's and Creighton, allow a new conference the ability to offer a weekly 6-7 hour block of live basketball with top-level teams. I have to think ESPN and NBC would be interested in a league that on a weekly basis could air back-to-back-to-back games like Georgetown vs Butler, Marquette vs Xavier, and Villanova vs Gonzaga, all played locally in prime time.

And you're accusing others of small-minded thinking? Give me a break and start thinking national and not just in 2 times zones.

The C7 presidents/AD's would take Xavier over Butler first, that's a lock. So I'm not contradicting myself.

I'm not sure why you're agreeing with me about Gonzaga, but ok, I'll allow it. If you're confussing me with someone else, I've said ALL ALONG that Gonzaga is my first choice, and years ago I joked on this very board the conference could be called Catholic USA (it won't be, don't worry).

Look, as I said, this isn't anti-Butler. Let me know where exactly I ripped Butler or their team.

This is about having 9 teams, building a brand (catholic, urban schools *cough, cough*), and keeping as much cash as possible. I'm a broken record at this point, but if adding Butler brings more cash, then by all means add them.

Assuming the entire C7 moves to form a new conference, I think there are three non-football playing institutions which would be on the top of the target list.  Theses three institutions are Xavier, Butler and Saint Louis.

After these schools are targeted there are a myriad amount of opportunities out there.

Anywhere between 2 to 4 football playing institutions comprised of Memphis, Cincinnati, Temple, Connecticut, and Massachusetts could be targeted.  These schools have nationally recognized basketball programs and would further boost the profile, marketability, and value of the new conference.

However, the 2 to 4 football playing institutions would have to house its football programs elsewhere. These institutions would either have to compete as an independent in football or as an associate member of a football playing conference.  Furthermore, there would have to be significant penalties set in place if any of the football playing institutions left the conference in order to ensure the stability and viability of the new conference.

I was looking at your response to MU82, which seemed to indicate teams like Butler and Gonzaga were "small-minded thinking".

I get Xavier is a given. But if you look over the past 10-15 years, the commitment and level of success both Butler and Gonzaga have achieved is second to none among mid-majors. Brad Stevens and Mark Few are known by everyone who follows college basketball.

I really fear the "Catholic" model being our identity. I feel that is small-minded. Going forward, that restricts us to adding schools like Creighton, St. Mary's, and St. Louis. What if we don't add Butler and they sustain this level of success? What if VCU stays or grows where they are at? Any number of other non-Catholic schools could prove to be among the best of the non-football schools. Are we going to say no based on denomination? It's foolish to limit ourselves like that, which is why Butler (and honestly, VCU) should be higher priorities than St. Louis or Creighton. Because we need our identity to be BASKETBALL rather than religion.

And while I wanted them initially, I am thinking we should pass on football schools. Maybe Temple and Memphis, but certainly not Cincy or UConn. They have shown too strong a commitment to leaving. If they signed a ridiculous clause regarding exit fees and future rights, maybe. Otherwise, forget them.

I still don't see anyone talking about the mention in the USA today article that 2 of the votes of the 2/3rds needed to dissolve need to come from football schools. If that's the case the 7 has much less negotiating power than we thought...

I believe Xavier and Butler are the no-brainers.  You keep interest in Cincy, and connect Cincy and Indiana with a team that just made the national title game twice and a team that has been in the tourney 8 of the last 10 years with a lot of success.

I would have gone Dayton next, but while an unpopular vote since most of our fans are Mid-west, I believe we need to go VCU next.  They would be the best team in the Conference right now, and have a program very capable of making another Final Four run, and a Richmond-DC trip is very easy to hit Georgetown and VCU and really pull in Virginia where people have been waiting for UVa to come back for decades.

I also believe it is key we keep this at a 10-team league.  In a 10 team league we have the exposure of trips to DC, Philly and New York every year and the TV and student recruiting that comes with it.  You play at all 9 universities and they come to you every year.

If it goes to 12-teams then we probably end up in a Midwest Division and only get to the eastern sites every other year while doubling up against St. Louis, Creighton, DePaul, Butler and Dayton.  Just not the same from an exposure prospective.

I don't know if this was posted yet but Cincy news station reported that their sources say Butler, Xavier, and Dayton will get invites.

http://www.local12.com/content/local_sports/story/UC-Xavier-May-Shuffle-Conferences/6jbHWz8TakSnJSEG1sAwaA.cspx (http://www.local12.com/content/local_sports/story/UC-Xavier-May-Shuffle-Conferences/6jbHWz8TakSnJSEG1sAwaA.cspx)

Big bad Bleacher Report stated Fordham was in the mix. I don't need to add that option, do I?

Also, unnatural carnal knowledge Dayton. Do not want then in this league. Their fans seem worse that Domers.

No raid on the MVC is worth a damn without Bradley.  Great tradition (remember Hersey Hawkings?), good academics, and they would deliver the Peoria marketplace.  Peoria's airport is slightly smaller than Spokane's, but brand spanking new and much nicer than MKE.  They are not Catholic, but I am pretty sure they would kiss the Pope's ring for an invite to our new conference.

I think it would be better to take Creighton over Dayton.

Like most here, I think Xavier and Butler are the top two schools the C7 need to get. For a 10-team league, I would take Creighton, but would not be disappointed if it was VCU. For a 12-team league, the invites should go to St. Louis and whoever is left over from Creighton/VCU.

Quote from: PJDunn on December 15, 2012, 12:00:24 AM
No raid on the MVC is worth a damn without Bradley.  Great tradition (remember Hersey Hawkings?), good academics, and they would deliver the Peoria marketplace.  Peoria's airport is slightly smaller than Spokane's, but brand spanking new and much nicer than MKE.  They are not Catholic, but I am pretty sure they would kiss the Pope's ring for an invite to our new conference.

Best 225th post ever.

Quote from: PJDunn on December 15, 2012, 12:00:24 AM
No raid on the MVC is worth a damn without Bradley.  Great tradition (remember Hersey Hawkings?), good academics, and they would deliver the Peoria marketplace.  Peoria's airport is slightly smaller than Spokane's, but brand spanking new and much nicer than MKE.  They are not Catholic, but I am pretty sure they would kiss the Pope's ring for an invite to our new conference.

Is Hersey related to Stephen?

Quote from: lalumiere on December 13, 2012, 10:49:26 PM
Anywhere between 2 to 4 football playing institutions comprised of Memphis, Cincinnati, Temple, Connecticut, and Massachusetts could be targeted.  These schools have nationally recognized basketball programs and would further boost the profile, marketability, and value of the new conference.

However, the 2 to 4 football playing institutions would have to house its football programs elsewhere. These institutions would either have to compete as an independent in football or as an associate member of a football playing conference.  Furthermore, there would have to be significant penalties set in place if any of the football playing institutions left the conference in order to ensure the stability and viability of the new conference.

No.

I'm no expert on this but does Memphis have any chance to get into a BCS conference in the future?

Quote from: PJDunn on December 15, 2012, 12:00:24 AM
No raid on the MVC is worth a damn without Bradley.  Great tradition (remember Hersey Hawkings?), good academics, and they would deliver the Peoria marketplace.  Peoria's airport is slightly smaller than Spokane's, but brand spanking new and much nicer than MKE.  They are not Catholic, but I am pretty sure they would kiss the Pope's ring for an invite to our new conference.

Here I was thinking everyone would be laughing at the Fordham mention, but this really out did that.

Quote from: Aughnanure on December 13, 2012, 12:00:32 PM
I don't like St. Mary's at all. Super small, never heard a good thing about their campus and rely heavily on Australian players. I'd take San Fran though, good school, much larger, great overall athletic department, jesuit and much better history.

Good suggestion of SF except for them being Jesuit.  In that respect, WHO CARES?!

Quote from: slingkong on December 18, 2012, 10:50:49 AM
Good suggestion of SF except for them being Jesuit.  In that respect, WHO CARES?!

True, but it may matter enough to the 4-5 other Jesuit schools to take them over St. Mary's.  Pepperdine, Loyola Marymount and Santa Clara also have great overall athletic departments that could help support the league's viability in other sports (and Loyola does have some decent bball history under Paul Westhead).

On top of that, I've seen concerns on the Georgetown board about how many sports all these 7-10 schools play. This is significant b/c some like Butler and Georgetown play a lot more than Providence and Seton Hall for example (i.e. you need more than 4 soccer teams for a league). The numbers I saw showed a lot of sports are only supported by 3-5 schools. So there is value in adding schools that play a lot of Olympic sports.

Can we dump DePaul?

Quote from: Sir Lawrence on December 18, 2012, 10:07:24 PM
Can we dump DePaul?

Not unless we want to give up the automatic berth to the NCAA tournament.

Quote from: Sir Lawrence on December 18, 2012, 10:07:24 PM
Can we dump DePaul?

After DePaul carried MU around, no.