It was alluded to in the Wisconsin/Florida thread - that we too have fundamental issues at key spots this year. I tend to agree. I was bullish on this year's MU team prior to Mayo's issues. Combine Todd's absence with what we've seen of of our point/shooting guard situation - it is concerning.
Teams are going to pack it in and realize Gardner is our only consistent scoring threat - and they won't double off of Jake Thomas when he's in the game. Teams are going to make Vander and Junior beat them (hit shots)....hopefully they can. I'm more confident in Jamil Wilson being the wildcard (perhaps even Juan Anderson), as 2 players who can score/capitalize on the double teams Gardner will force.
If Junior and Blue can hit shots, we'll be Sweet 16/Elite 8 good. If not...a bubble team..unless Buzz can pull a rabbit out of his hit as he did with the midget team of 2009.
Quote from: Ners on November 15, 2012, 09:22:11 AM
It was alluded to in the Wisconsin/Florida thread - that we too have fundamental issues at key spots this year. I tend to agree. I was bullish on this year's MU team prior to Mayo's issues. Combine Todd's absence with what we've seen of of our point/shooting guard situation - it is concerning.
Teams are going to pack it in and realize Gardner is our only consistent scoring threat - and they won't double off of Jake Thomas when he's in the game. Teams are going to make Vander and Junior beat them (hit shots)....hopefully they can. I'm more confident in Jamil Wilson being the wildcard (perhaps even Juan Anderson), as 2 players who can score/capitalize on the double teams Gardner will force.
If Junior and Blue can hit shots, we'll be Sweet 16/Elite 8 good. If not...a bubble team..unless Buzz can pull a rabbit out of his hit as he did with the midget team of 2009.
I mostly agree, but I'm not sure that Mayo's absence really changes much. This team will need to score a lot in transition... Our half court game is pretty bad from what we've seen so far*
*which isn't much
edit: also, I'm not sure we have a change to go to the elite 8 unless we get a really favorable bracket. I think we are more in the round of 32/sweet 16 level.
Hards
I agree. We need transition points and we have enough athletic players to create opportunities. I really hope we tighten up the D and see what happens. As tough as Gardner can be I think he is too big of liability on D.
Quote from: Ners on November 15, 2012, 09:22:11 AM
Teams are going to pack it in and realize Gardner is our only consistent scoring threat - and they won't double off of Jake Thomas when he's in the game. Teams are going to make Vander and Junior beat them (hit shots)....hopefully they can. I'm more confident in Jamil Wilson being the wildcard (perhaps even Juan Anderson), as 2 players who can score/capitalize on the double teams Gardner will force.
I also noticed in the first two games that whoever would feed Gardner from the wing, would then float to the top of the key and/or cut to the lane. That's fine to try and get a dish on the cut, but once teams really start doubling and tripling Gardner, someone needs to move over to the wing for the Kick-out and open shot.
This post could have been pulled from any season from 2000-2012. There is always going to be going to be some deficiency in the team. What we learned in all the other seasons is that it is early and there is rust. Buzz plays with his line-ups. Someone has always stepped up. If we are going into December and someone hasn't stepped up then we can worry. Right now, we are two games into the season.
Neither Vander nor Junior are completely inept at shooting outside. They have just put up bad shots. Players and teams adjust. If a team packs the middle on Gardner than the outside players have less contested shots. Less contested shots equal a higher percentage. Sagging on Gardner allows Vander to be closer to the basket. Sagging on Gardner requires a greater shift on defense which means someone will be out of position.
Again, the team in the first two games isn't going to be the same team in Jan, Feb, Mar. The players will get into the offensive flow, certain players will fall out of the rotation, and there is more consistency.
Quote from: Abode4life on November 15, 2012, 09:31:48 AM
I also noticed in the first two games that whoever would feed Gardner from the wing, would then float to the top of the key and/or cut to the lane. That's fine to try and get a dish on the cut, but once teams really start doubling and tripling Gardner, someone needs to move over to the wing for the Kick-out and open shot.
The bolded action you describe above is to try to make it difficult to double Gardner...as MU is trying to create as much space for Gardner to operate as possible - if you rotate a player to the wing/ball side - it is easier for that defender to dig down on Gardner...but there certainly are opportunities for MU to do that on occasion and get a 3.
Buzz always has MU playing better when the BE season rolls around. As great as last season was, remember how this board nearly exploded after loses to LSU and Vandy? (The last one a blow out at home?) It's a marathon...not a sprint....and we might very well lose a couple of times in Maui. But I think Buzz will figure things out by the time the BE season starts rolling.
Quote from: Ners on November 15, 2012, 09:44:24 AM
The bolded action you describe above is to try to make it difficult to double Gardner...as MU is trying to create as much space for Gardner to operate as possible - if you rotate a player to the wing/ball side - it is easier for that defender to dig down on Gardner...but there certainly are opportunities for MU to do that on occasion and get a 3.
Exactly. The problem was that the double teams were coming from the other side of the floor and not from the top because they didn't want to leave Jake open. So now everything is clogged and Davante can't do anything. Better to get Jake out of there to allow Davante some room to operate.
I think this team, like the 2009-10 team that repeatedly came close against top-10 teams while not having a regular rotation player over 6'7" and the 2010-11 team that sputtered to a .500 Big East record before reaching the Big East semis and the Sweet 16, is a team that will not be playing their best until February or March.
First of all, this is a tremendously small sample size to get concerned over. I know that it only takes 1 bad game for this board to go into Sky Is Falling Mode (hereafter Skyfall) but this is massive overreaction early on.
For some guys, it's status quo. Junior is still the starting PG, and he's been pretty darn good. Averaging 4 apg, only 1 turnover, and hitting 40% from three while also increasing his scoring average. Yes, we all want the shooting inside the arc to improve, but over the course of the season those will start to fall. Davante has the same role and has excelled inside offensively while continuing to struggle defensively. He's getting the praise for leading the team in scoring, but is mostly just doing what he's done in the past. Chris is expected to be the space-eater, and has added a few more points than expected. Juan was expected to be an energy guy, just like last year, and he's done that while also hitting a few shots.
Look at how different the roles are for the other guys. Jamil is expected to be the man, something he's never had to do before, but something he's clearly talented enough to become. Lockett is expected to play more of a team role than he did at ASU because we are so much more talented. While the scoring isn't there yet, his rebounding, defense, and hustle is all evident. For Thomas and Taylor, this is a huge jump up.
In addition, this is a team that might be better suited playing a little slower, but they are pushing the tempo just as much as last year's team did. Buzz'll figure this out. The team will figure it out. They might not be perfect now, but I think come February, this is going to be a very good team. I honestly think this might be the best team Buzz has ever coached.
We'll know a lot more after Maui. We'll know tons more after December 8th. I think there's a decent chance we could walk out of the BC that night 7-1, but also a (fairly slim) chance we could be 4-4. Until then, I'm not going to start panicking.
I think Thomas is getting minutes for just that reason: when DG gets double-triple teamed we have another shooter on the floor. Better he gets the rythm now
Quote from: Ners on November 15, 2012, 09:22:11 AM
It was alluded to in the Wisconsin/Florida thread - that we too have fundamental issues at key spots this year. I tend to agree. I was bullish on this year's MU team prior to Mayo's issues. Combine Todd's absence with what we've seen of of our point/shooting guard situation - it is concerning.
Teams are going to pack it in and realize Gardner is our only consistent scoring threat - and they won't double off of Jake Thomas when he's in the game. Teams are going to make Vander and Junior beat them (hit shots)....hopefully they can. I'm more confident in Jamil Wilson being the wildcard (perhaps even Juan Anderson), as 2 players who can score/capitalize on the double teams Gardner will force.
If Junior and Blue can hit shots, we'll be Sweet 16/Elite 8 good. If not...a bubble team..unless Buzz can pull a rabbit out of his hit as he did with the midget team of 2009.
He won't. This team will need Wilson, Gardner and Lockett to be the scorers.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 15, 2012, 09:49:09 AM
Exactly. The problem was that the double teams were coming from the other side of the floor and not from the top because they didn't want to leave Jake open. So now everything is clogged and Davante can't do anything. Better to get Jake out of there to allow Davante some room to operate.
The problem with getting out of there (i.e. move to the opposite side of the floor), without having someone rotate back to the wing, is that Davante's back will be to them. And if we have 4 guys on the opposite side bunched together to give DG as much space as possible, it only takes 2 defenders to guard them. Then the opposite defenders are able to double and triple team, with no easy kick-out for Davante.
Quote from: Ners on November 15, 2012, 09:22:11 AM
It was alluded to in the Wisconsin/Florida thread - that we too have fundamental issues at key spots this year. I tend to agree. I was bullish on this year's MU team prior to Mayo's issues. Combine Todd's absence with what we've seen of of our point/shooting guard situation - it is concerning.
Teams are going to pack it in and realize Gardner is our only consistent scoring threat - and they won't double off of Jake Thomas when he's in the game. Teams are going to make Vander and Junior beat them (hit shots)....hopefully they can. I'm more confident in Jamil Wilson being the wildcard (perhaps even Juan Anderson), as 2 players who can score/capitalize on the double teams Gardner will force.
If Junior and Blue can hit shots, we'll be Sweet 16/Elite 8 good. If not...a bubble team..unless Buzz can pull a rabbit out of his hit as he did with the midget team of 2009.
I agree with your overall concern, but I think it's an issue with or without Mayo. DJO and Jae took and made a TON of 3's last year.
MU has some guys with decent percentages (Jamil, Trent, Mayo, Jake), but none of those guys have made as many as DJO and Jae did last year. I think they have the ability, but their volume is going to have to increase, which can sometimes lead to inefficiency.
If not, MU's post men with get doubled every time, and Junior will drive and kick the ball to another guy who simply drives it right back in.
MU actually has similar issue 2 years ago. Drive. Kick. Repeat.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 15, 2012, 10:21:54 AM
I agree with your overall concern, but I think it's an issue with or without Mayo. DJO and Jae took and made a TON of 3's last year.
MU has some guys with decent percentages (Jamil, Trent, Mayo, Jake), but none of those guys have made as many as DJO and Jae did last year. I think they have the ability, but their volume is going to have to increase, which can sometimes lead to inefficiency.
If not, MU's post men with get doubled every time, and Junior will drive and kick the ball to another guy who simply drives it right back in.
MU actually has similar issue 2 years ago. Drive. Kick. Repeat.
I'd say the issue is magnified/amplified without Mayo - Mayo had a mid season funk last year, but he was lights out in the non-conference portion of schedule and pretty much single handidly got MU the win at Wisconsin - Bo Ryan was rotating every one of his defenders to Mayo to see who could best keep him in check. Then we saw Mayo contribute a ton in the NCAA games. He definitely was going to be our best returning scoring guard..with regard to scoring and 3 point shooting. So, I'd say it is a pretty big loss...no? Mayo likely would have gotten/taken a lot of those 3-balls Jae and DJO took last year.
Quote from: Ners on November 15, 2012, 10:46:49 AM
I'd say the issue is magnified/amplified without Mayo - Mayo had a mid season funk last year, but he was lights out in the non-conference portion of schedule and pretty much single handidly got MU the win at Wisconsin - Bo Ryan was rotating every one of his defenders to Mayo to see who could best keep him in check. Then we saw Mayo contribute a ton in the NCAA games. He definitely was going to be our best returning scoring guard..with regard to scoring and 3 point shooting. So, I'd say it is a pretty big loss...no? Mayo likely would have gotten/taken a lot of those 3-balls Jae and DJO took last year.
Certainly Mayo would help, no doubt. But, my concern over usage and volume of shots is still an issue. A handful of guys have decent %'s, but they haven't shot the volume of the guys from last year. The start of this year is going to be an evolution as guys are depended upon more and more.
Also, you keep pointing at one game or one portion of the season for Mayo, but we could cherry pick stuff like that for every player to illustrate how good he could be. Doesn't mean that player can perform like that consistently. Jamil, Vander and Junior are all examples of this.
I'm not dismissing Mayo, I just think he's another possible band-aid, not a cure-all for MU's shooting.
MU's offense is going to have to score by committee. That could make them dangerous in March, but right now it might be a little ugly to watch (we have only seen 2 games, so who knows?)
Guns
What is your position on Mayo being out? Do we miss him or not?
Quote from: Goose on November 15, 2012, 11:06:19 AM
Guns
What is your position on Mayo being out? Do we miss him or not?
Yes, we miss him, but I don't think he's the elixir that some people may think.
You are looking at a college soph. that has shot a total of 93 3pters and made 33.
It's going to be challenging for him (just like Jamil, Jake and Trent) to take and make enough 3's to keep the floor spread.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 15, 2012, 09:47:29 AM
Buzz always has MU playing better when the BE season rolls around. As great as last season was, remember how this board nearly exploded after loses to LSU and Vandy? (The last one a blow out at home?) It's a marathon...not a sprint....and we might very well lose a couple of times in Maui. But I think Buzz will figure things out by the time the BE season starts rolling.
Those were ugly games for sure but the reaction to those were absurd. We had a very cohesive team from game one last year, right up until Otule went out. LSU and Vandy happened as the team was trying to regroup after a critical component was suddenly gone. We bounced back from that pretty well, but it took some time.
I have no concerns about this team two games in. There's a lot of raw talent that hasn't been focused yet and there are a lot of new pieces this year that haven't gotten the chemistry down yet, but there's lots of time to get there before conference play.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 15, 2012, 11:11:39 AM
Yes, we miss him, but I don't think he's the elixir that some people may think.
You are looking at a college soph. that has shot a total of 93 3pters and made 33.
It's going to be challenging for him (just like Jamil, Jake and Trent) to take and make enough 3's to keep the floor spread.
Have to disagree here Guns - The more a player is on the court, the better their rhythm, flow, and generally shooting percentage. I was very excited to see Todd get a significant increase in shots this year with DJO and Crowder gone - as in my view - Todd is a better shooter than DJO, and has more offensive versatility than DJO had. Mayo is a smooth player, oozing with potential. Sure hope he finds a way to make it at MU - but I guess it is pointless to lament/debate his absence as we won't ever know unless he returns.
Quote from: Ners on November 15, 2012, 12:00:45 PM
Have to disagree here Guns - The more a player is on the court, the better their rhythm, flow, and generally shooting percentage. I was very excited to see Todd get a significant increase in shots this year with DJO and Crowder gone - as in my view - Todd is a better shooter than DJO, and has more offensive versatility than DJO had. Mayo is a smooth player, oozing with potential. Sure hope he finds a way to make it at MU - but I guess it is pointless to lament/debate his absence as we won't ever know unless he returns.
Yea, I'm just not seeing what you are seeing with Todd. I actually hope you are right, because if you are, MU is going to make a deep run in the tourny.
As far as rhythm, flow, etc., that's true to a point. But, when a player is asked to go well above his normal usage rate, he usually becomes inefficient. I believe Henry Sugar normally covers that topic.
I think MU's guards have talent, but they are being asked to up their usage rate a good deal, and I think that is going to lead to some growing pains and inefficiency (at least early in the season).
As good as Todd was at times, he was also very bad at times. His offensive efficiency was barely higher than Vander's was. It's not like the addition of Mayo would have us beating Southeastern Louisiana by 30 instead of 11. Hopefully he gets his affairs in order and gets back by mid-season, but it's probably better to assume he won't be here all year. Which may hurt now, but in the long run, will probably be good for the rest of the team's development.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 15, 2012, 12:32:57 PM
As good as Todd was at times, he was also very bad at times. His offensive efficiency was barely higher than Vander's was. It's not like the addition of Mayo would have us beating Southeastern Louisiana by 30 instead of 11. Hopefully he gets his affairs in order and gets back by mid-season, but it's probably better to assume he won't be here all year. Which may hurt now, but in the long run, will probably be good for the rest of the team's development.
He was a freshman though (albeit, an old one). But he showed much more in the first half of last year offensively than Vander ever has. But he ran into the freshman wall, his legs got tired, his shooting went down.
Is he the magic elixir? Probably not, but we are certainly missing his offensive threat - especially since none of our guards have really shown that ability yet.
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 15, 2012, 12:44:53 PM
He was a freshman though (albeit, an old one). But he showed much more in the first half of last year offensively than Vander ever has. But he ran into the freshman wall, his legs got tired, his shooting went down.
Is he the magic elixir? Probably not, but we are certainly missing his offensive threat - especially since none of our guards have really shown that ability yet.
That's the thing...no, he didn't. Let's compare the first 15 games of both guys careers:
Todd Mayo10.2 ppg (High 22)
2.7 rpg (High 5)
1.3 apg (High 4)
0.5 spg (High 2)
21.2 mpg
43.6 FG%
37.5 3P%
76.7 FT%
Vander Blue9.7 ppg (High 21)
3.7 rpg (High 9)
2.8 apg (High 6)
1.7 spg (High 4)
24.5 mpg
49.1 FG%
23.5 3P%
66.0 FT%
Those numbers are very similar. Slight edge to Todd in ppg, better from three and the stripe, but Vander has a big edge in rebounding, assists, steals, and overall field goal percentage. I know there's this narrative that Vander sucks and always has, and I hate to destroy that absurd lie for you (okay, no I don't) but both his career and Todd's started off pretty darn similar.
And for what it's worth, by including the first two Big East games, Todd's scoring average went up while Vander's went down. If you go strictly by the freshman non-conference season, Vander actually outscored Todd by 7 points.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 15, 2012, 01:13:40 PM
That's the thing...no, he didn't. Let's compare the first 15 games of both guys careers:
Todd Mayo
10.2 ppg (High 22)
2.7 rpg (High 5)
1.3 apg (High 4)
0.5 spg (High 2)
21.2 mpg
43.6 FG%
37.5 3P%
76.7 FT%
Vander Blue
9.7 ppg (High 21)
3.7 rpg (High 9)
2.8 apg (High 6)
1.7 spg (High 4)
24.5 mpg
49.1 FG%
23.5 3P%
66.0 FT%
Those numbers are very similar. Slight edge to Todd in ppg, better from three and the stripe, but Vander has a big edge in rebounding, assists, steals, and overall field goal percentage. I know there's this narrative that Vander sucks and always has, and I hate to destroy that absurd lie for you (okay, no I don't) but both his career and Todd's started off pretty darn similar.
And for what it's worth, by including the first two Big East games, Todd's scoring average went up while Vander's went down. If you go strictly by the freshman non-conference season, Vander actually outscored Todd by 7 points.
And you failed to compare Vander's freshman year Big East campaign to Mayos...we can also look at last year's NCAA tourney (3 games):
Vander: 5 of 22 shooting for 16 points with 16 rebounds and 1 steal. Mayo: 9 of 20 shooting for 29 points, 16 rebounds, 6 steals
Quote from: Ners on November 15, 2012, 01:42:43 PMAnd you failed to compare Vander's freshman year Big East campaign to Mayos...
Can you read?
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 15, 2012, 12:44:53 PMBut he showed much more in the first half of last year offensively than Vander ever has.
I put up a direct response to Aughnanure's post. A direct response proving it as a complete fallacy.
Quote from: Ners on November 15, 2012, 01:42:43 PM
And you failed to compare Vander's freshman year Big East campaign to Mayos...we can also look at last year's NCAA tourney (3 games):
Vander: 5 of 22 shooting for 16 points with 16 rebounds and 1 steal. Mayo: 9 of 20 shooting for 29 points, 16 rebounds, 6 steals
5 of 22 is terrible.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 15, 2012, 01:13:40 PM
That's the thing...no, he didn't. Let's compare the first 15 games of both guys careers:
Todd Mayo
10.2 ppg (High 22)
2.7 rpg (High 5)
1.3 apg (High 4)
0.5 spg (High 2)
21.2 mpg
43.6 FG%
37.5 3P%
76.7 FT%
Vander Blue
9.7 ppg (High 21)
3.7 rpg (High 9)
2.8 apg (High 6)
1.7 spg (High 4)
24.5 mpg
49.1 FG%
23.5 3P%
66.0 FT%
Those numbers are very similar. Slight edge to Todd in ppg, better from three and the stripe, but Vander has a big edge in rebounding, assists, steals, and overall field goal percentage. I know there's this narrative that Vander sucks and always has, and I hate to destroy that absurd lie for you (okay, no I don't) but both his career and Todd's started off pretty darn similar.
And for what it's worth, by including the first two Big East games, Todd's scoring average went up while Vander's went down. If you go strictly by the freshman non-conference season, Vander actually outscored Todd by 7 points.
Sweet, he had a few good games and got a bunch of rebound/putback points. That's super awesome. Do your eyes honestly deceive you that much? Vander is not an offensive threat, and is basically a black-hole offensively on this team (which is not good for a guard, esp when our pg isn't much of a factor offensively either).
I really hope Vander can make shots and finish at the rim this year, but its now his 3rd year and hasn't really shown improvement offensively. It's nice you cite rebounding and steal stats as proof of an offensive game, when in reality rebounding and steals are the only way he gets his points.
As much as I get that the overt 'hate' on Vander is sometimes out of line, the commitment to defending him to any criticism is getting silly. As good as he is defensively, he is simply not a factor on the offensive side of the ball. Cannot create his own shot. Cannot shoot from the outside. Cannot finish at the rim.
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 15, 2012, 02:19:18 PM
Sweet, he had a few good games and got a bunch of rebound/putback points. That's super awesome. Do your eyes honestly deceive you that much? Vander is not an offensive threat, and is basically a black-hole offensively on this team (which is not good for a guard, esp when our pg isn't much of a factor offensively either).
I really hope Vander can make shots and finish at the rim this year, but its now his 3rd year and hasn't really shown improvement offensively. It's nice you cite rebounding and steal stats as proof of an offensive game, when in reality rebounding and steals are the only way he gets his points.
Those points count right? Did they change a rule or something that changed that?
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 15, 2012, 02:19:18 PM
As much as I get that the overt 'hate' on Vander is sometimes out of line, the commitment to defending him to any criticism is getting silly. As good as he is defensively, he is simply not a factor on the offensive side of the ball. Cannot create his own shot. Cannot shoot from the outside. Cannot finish at the rim.
No one...not a single person here thinks that he should be defended from any criticism. And honestly most people would agree with you that offensively he isn't a factor in that you can't give him the ball and say "get us two." That's obvious.
What I can't stand is that people use only this factor to judge him and say things like "he isn't good." Well, that's just being basketball dumb. He is a great defender. He has shown that consistently since he has been here. He also rebounds well for his position. Those are things that matter to a basketball team and people don't seem to realize that. Buzz seems to realize this however since he is going on his second year of starting on what one of the best basketball teams in the country.
And don't get me started on the whole slap-of-five crap....
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 15, 2012, 02:19:18 PM
Sweet, he had a few good games and got a bunch of rebound/putback points. That's super awesome. Do your eyes honestly deceive you that much? Vander is not an offensive threat, and is basically a black-hole offensively on this team (which is not good for a guard, esp when our pg isn't much of a factor offensively either).
Don't be stupid. Those weren't a few good games, he was consistently good for his first 10 or so weeks. As good as Mayo was over the same stretch. Vander's offense definitely declined after that, but no one was bitching about this 2 years ago because the issues you seem to think are constantly evident simply weren't at that time.
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 15, 2012, 02:19:18 PMI really hope Vander can make shots and finish at the rim this year, but its now his 3rd year and hasn't really shown improvement offensively. It's nice you cite rebounding and steal stats as proof of an offensive game, when in reality rebounding and steals are the only way he gets his points.
Are 2 points off a jumper with 13 left on the shot clock worth more than 2 points from a tip-in or a fast-break off a steal? And him hitting 49% was more than just rebounding and steals.
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 15, 2012, 02:19:18 PMAs much as I get that the overt 'hate' on Vander is sometimes out of line, the commitment to defending him to any criticism is getting silly. As good as he is defensively, he is simply not a factor on the offensive side of the ball. Cannot create his own shot. Cannot shoot from the outside. Cannot finish at the rim.
I never said Vander didn't have deficiencies. But you said Todd showed more offensively in the first half of last year than Vander ever did. While it may not have been an intentional lie, it was a blatantly untrue statement. Vander still has a ways to go on offense. He needs more of those shots to drop. But if he can get 2 more makes a game he's averaging double-figures in scoring. I don't think he'll ever be a DJO or Jerel, but 10 ppg this year and 12 ppg next year is completely realistic, and when you consider the rest of what he brings to the table coupled with the talent that surrounds him, that will be plenty.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 15, 2012, 01:13:40 PM
That's the thing...no, he didn't. Let's compare the first 15 games of both guys careers:
Todd Mayo
10.2 ppg (High 22)
2.7 rpg (High 5)
1.3 apg (High 4)
0.5 spg (High 2)
21.2 mpg
43.6 FG%
37.5 3P%
76.7 FT%
Vander Blue
9.7 ppg (High 21)
3.7 rpg (High 9)
2.8 apg (High 6)
1.7 spg (High 4)
24.5 mpg
49.1 FG%
23.5 3P%
66.0 FT%
Those numbers are very similar. Slight edge to Todd in ppg, better from three and the stripe, but Vander has a big edge in rebounding, assists, steals, and overall field goal percentage. I know there's this narrative that Vander sucks and always has, and I hate to destroy that absurd lie for you (okay, no I don't) but both his career and Todd's started off pretty darn similar.
And for what it's worth, by including the first two Big East games, Todd's scoring average went up while Vander's went down. If you go strictly by the freshman non-conference season, Vander actually outscored Todd by 7 points.
People can come up with statistics to prove anything. 14% of people know that.
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 15, 2012, 02:19:18 PM
Sweet, he had a few good games and got a bunch of rebound/putback points. That's super awesome. Do your eyes honestly deceive you that much? Vander is not an offensive threat, and is basically a black-hole offensively on this team (which is not good for a guard, esp when our pg isn't much of a factor offensively either).
I really hope Vander can make shots and finish at the rim this year, but its now his 3rd year and hasn't really shown improvement offensively. It's nice you cite rebounding and steal stats as proof of an offensive game, when in reality rebounding and steals are the only way he gets his points.
As much as I get that the overt 'hate' on Vander is sometimes out of line, the commitment to defending him to any criticism is getting silly. As good as he is defensively, he is simply not a factor on the offensive side of the ball. Cannot create his own shot. Cannot shoot from the outside. Cannot finish at the rim.
Here's the thing:
Todd's numbers and Vander's numbers are similar.
I don't think Player A can be considered and offensive dynamo while Player B is considered offensively inept, can they?
I understand the eye test and all, but they can't be THAT different. Todd is a good player, and at this point, better offensively than Vander (hell, maybe he's better overall, too).
But, he's not Novak. I don't think you can't just plug him in and expect that MU's offense is suddenly going to be a ton better. Todd is going to have his own struggles on offense, probably similar to what he struggled with last year.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 15, 2012, 02:34:10 PM
Here's the thing:
Todd's numbers and Vander's numbers are similar.
I don't think Player A can be considered and offensive dynamo while Player B is considered offensively inept, can they?
I understand the eye test and all, but they can't be THAT different. Todd is a good player, and at this point, better offensively than Vander (hell, maybe he's better overall, too).
But, he's not Novak. I don't think you can't just plug him in and expect that MU's offense is suddenly going to be a ton better. Todd is going to have his own struggles on offense, probably similar to what he struggled with last year.
Did I say Mayo was an offensive dynamo? No. Cause he isn't. But I certainly had (cause it seems that's now long gone) more hope for him.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 15, 2012, 02:28:05 PM
No one...not a single person here thinks that he should be defended from any criticism. And honestly most people would agree with you that offensively he isn't a factor in that you can't give him the ball and say "get us two." That's obvious.
That's the thing. I write one thing criticizing him, you get three responses telling you you're an idiot cause he plays D and rebounds. It's like hydra.
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 15, 2012, 02:41:58 PM
That's the thing. I write one thing criticizing him, you get three responses telling you you're an idiot cause he plays D and rebounds. It's like hydra.
I never said you were an idiot. I said that those who label Vander as "not good" are. I was mostly countering your point that people feel that he should be immune to "any criticism." I certainly don't.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 15, 2012, 02:28:05 PM
No one...not a single person here thinks that he should be defended from any criticism. And honestly most people would agree with you that offensively he isn't a factor in that you can't give him the ball and say "get us two." That's obvious.
What I can't stand is that people use only this factor to judge him and say things like "he isn't good." Well, that's just being basketball dumb. He is a great defender. He has shown that consistently since he has been here. He also rebounds well for his position. Those are things that matter to a basketball team and people don't seem to realize that. Buzz seems to realize this however since he is going on his second year of starting on what one of the best basketball teams in the country.
And don't get me started on the whole slap-of-five crap....
Yeah, and that's a f***ing problem. He's your starting 2 guard and he can't get you points unless it's given to him on a silver platter (and even then...). You can't just be great on one side of the ball in basketball. Just like how you gotta play D to be on the court, not being able to play O is equally problematic.
it's not that he isn't a great offensive player, it's that he's an awful offensive player. So great on D, terrible on O - decent? Good? Solid? But far from great or one of our best players (we should hope).
...and I'm not getting started on the Five thing. I don't and never did care about it.
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 15, 2012, 02:40:00 PM
Did I say Mayo was an offensive dynamo? No. Cause he isn't. But I certainly had (cause it seems that's now long gone) more hope for him.
That's fine, but your implication is that Mayo's 10.2 points gave you hope while Mayo's 9.7 gives you no hope.
They don't seem far enough apart in actual numbers or in the eye test to think that Todd is a good offensive player and Vander is bad.
They are both pretty average, maybe even below average, honestly.
This is probably getting into more of a semantics issue than anything else. I think cautious optimism for Todd Mayo's game is realistic. For Vander, I'd exercise a little more caution.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 15, 2012, 02:43:38 PM
I never said you were an idiot. I said that those who label Vander as "not good" are. I was mostly countering your point that people feel that he should be immune to "any criticism." I certainly don't.
I know, wasn't technically quoting you.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 15, 2012, 02:47:14 PM
That's fine, but your implication is that Mayo's 10.2 points gave you hope while Mayo's 9.7 gives you no hope.
They don't seem far enough apart in actual numbers or in the eye test to think that Todd is a good offensive player and Vander is bad.
They are both pretty average, maybe even below average, honestly.
This is probably getting into more of a semantics issue than anything else. I think cautious optimism for Todd Mayo's game is realistic. For Vander, I'd exercise a little more caution.
If you don't think they look far enough a part in the eye test, I don't know what to tell you. Though I agree that Mayo is probably just average, right now.
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 15, 2012, 02:41:58 PM
That's the thing. I write one thing criticizing him, you get three responses telling you you're an idiot cause he plays D and rebounds. It's like hydra.
Honestly, I've written a LOT of Vander critiques so far this year (check my posting history).
Nobody has called me a name.
If you post good, accurate, content and commentary, people don't come at you.
The "haters" earn the label through hyperbole and poor basketball acumen.
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 15, 2012, 02:49:25 PM
If you don't think they look far enough a part in the eye test, I don't know what to tell you. Though I agree that Mayo is probably just average, right now.
My eye test of all 30+ games last year tells me they aren't that far apart.
I saw Todd look bad, and I also saw him not get any minutes at points last year. That's doesn't mean he's bad, but it tempers my enthusiasm.
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 15, 2012, 02:46:58 PM
You can't just be great on one side of the ball in basketball. Just like how you gotta play D to be on the court, not being able to play O is equally problematic.
Well of course you can. It happens even in the NBA. There are great scorers who can't defend and vice versa.
It would just be more helpful if Wilson and Junior could score like Durant and Westbrook. But they aren't...but that doesn't mean that it only falls on Vander to provide that scoring. (And it doesn't matter than he is "the starting two guard" because you can get points from anywhere....not to mention that the traditional 1-5 positions are obsolete.)
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 15, 2012, 02:55:23 PM
Well of course you can. It happens even in the NBA. There are great scorers who can't defend and vice versa.
It would just be more helpful if Wilson and Junior could score like Durant and Westbrook. But they aren't...but that doesn't mean that it only falls on Vander to provide that scoring. (And it doesn't matter than he is "the starting two guard" because you can get points from anywhere....not to mention that the traditional 1-5 positions are obsolete.)
Actually, there is another guy on the roster who everybody seems to love who has trouble playing at both ends of the floor.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 15, 2012, 02:50:50 PM
Honestly, I've written a LOT of Vander critiques so far this year (check my posting history).
Nobody has called me a name.
If you post good, accurate, content and commentary, people don't come at you.
The "haters" earn the label through hyperbole and poor basketball acumen.
Maybe read above? Wasn't quoting you.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 15, 2012, 02:58:58 PM
Actually, there is another guy on the roster who everybody seems to love who has trouble playing at both ends of the floor.
Cadougan?
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 15, 2012, 02:41:58 PM
That's the thing. I write one thing criticizing him, you get three responses telling you you're an idiot cause he plays D and rebounds. It's like hydra.
You basically said Vander never showed anything like what Mayo did his first half season. I pointed out that both of them had nearly identical first half seasons.
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 15, 2012, 02:46:58 PMYou can't just be great on one side of the ball in basketball.
You can be, and you can be very successful being great on one side of the ball. We have had many guys over the years that have been great on one side of the ball. Blue is great on one side of the ball. Both Gardner and Otule are great on one side of the ball (maybe Chris has legit offensive game now, it will take more than 2 games to convince me). Junior has generally been great on one side of the ball (offensive, his D has been average at best).
But you can get away with that because it's a team game. It's okay if Junior lets his guy get by him if CO is there to block the shot just like it's okay if Otule can't hit a shot outside of 3 feet if Junior always gets him the ball in great position.
I wish everyone was Jae or Jimmy, but guys like that are few and far between. And wherever you don't have guys that are great on both sides, the guys better be good on at least one side. As long as we have enough guys good on the offensive end and enough guys good on the defensive end, I trust Buzz to balance it out just fine.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 15, 2012, 02:55:23 PM
Well of course you can. It happens even in the NBA. There are great scorers who can't defend and vice versa.
It would just be more helpful if Wilson and Junior could score like Durant and Westbrook. But they aren't...but that doesn't mean that it only falls on Vander to provide that scoring. (And it doesn't matter than he is "the starting two guard" because you can get points from anywhere....not to mention that the traditional 1-5 positions are obsolete.)
All of what you said is true, but I think for the vast majority of teams the wings (SG and SFs) are scorers. There's a reason for that. It's like being a 1B/LF/DH in baseball. In baseball, those are the positions that the largest number of people can handle defensively, so since there is a much larger pool to choose from, you really should be a great hitter to play those positions.
In basketball, the 6-2 to 6-6 guys who aren't great ball handlers or very strong inside guys tend to be talented scorers because that is where the highest concentration of players are, so you have the most guys to choose from to fill those slots.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 15, 2012, 03:03:42 PM
Think BIGGER. Very Big. The Biggest.
He is far from the problem.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 15, 2012, 03:02:38 PM
You basically said Vander never showed anything like what Mayo did his first half season. I pointed out that both of them had nearly identical first half seasons. Stats wise, sure. Reality? No.
You can be, and you can be very successful being great on one side of the ball. We have had many guys over the years that have been great on one side of the ball. Blue is great on one side of the ball. Both Gardner and Otule are great on one side of the ball (maybe Chris has legit offensive game now, it will take more than 2 games to convince me). Junior has generally been great on one side of the ball (offensive, his D has been average at best). The point was not that you have to be good or great on both sides, it's that you can't be a negative/non-factor on one of them. And Junior is great offensively? Okkayyy.
But you can get away with that because it's a team game. It's okay if Junior lets his guy get by him if CO is there to block the shot just like it's okay if Otule can't hit a shot outside of 3 feet if Junior always gets him the ball in great position.
I wish everyone was Jae or Jimmy, but guys like that are few and far between. And wherever you don't have guys that are great on both sides, the guys better be good on at least one side. As long as we have enough guys good on the offensive end and enough guys good on the defensive end, I trust Buzz to balance it out just fine. That's what I'm worried about.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 15, 2012, 02:54:11 PM
My eye test of all 30+ games last year tells me they aren't that far apart.
I usually agree with you Guns, but I have to disagree here. I simply can't imagine someone watching those two guys play offense and think they're about the same. The stats may be similar, but if you take away his fast break layup per game, I honestly think Vander shoots less than 30% from the floor in the half-court. Mayo had a long slump where he couldn't make a shot, but is is much more fluid and dynamic than Blue with the ball in his hands. I also agree with you that Mayo's absence is not going to kill our season.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 15, 2012, 02:55:23 PM
Well of course you can. It happens even in the NBA. There are great scorers who can't defend and vice versa.
It would just be more helpful if Wilson and Junior could score like Durant and Westbrook. But they aren't...but that doesn't mean that it only falls on Vander to provide that scoring. (And it doesn't matter than he is "the starting two guard" because you can get points from anywhere....not to mention that the traditional 1-5 positions are obsolete.)
No one's going to the NBA who can't make a 12 foot jumper or finish lay-ups. The sad part is, Vander's best offensive game is making free throws (which makes no f'ing sense and is soo frustrating!).
Quote from: CTWarrior on November 15, 2012, 03:17:00 PM
I usually agree with you Guns, but I have to disagree here. I simply can't imagine someone watching those two guys play offense and think they're about the same. The stats may be similar, but if you take away his fast break layup per game, I honestly think Vander shoots less than 30% from the floor in the half-court. Mayo had a long slump where he couldn't make a shot, but is is much more fluid and dynamic than Blue with the ball in his hands. I also agree with you that Mayo's absence is not going to kill our season.
Thank you God.
Quote from: CTWarrior on November 15, 2012, 03:07:31 PM
All of what you said is true, but I think for the vast majority of teams the wings (SG and SFs) are scorers. There's a reason for that. It's like being a 1B/LF/DH in baseball. In baseball, those are the positions that the largest number of people can handle defensively, so since there is a much larger pool to choose from, you really should be a great hitter to play those positions.
In basketball, the 6-2 to 6-6 guys who aren't great ball handlers or very strong inside guys tend to be talented scorers because that is where the highest concentration of players are, so you have the most guys to choose from to fill those slots.
I'm sorry but I don't think that is true at all. If you look at a lot of college basketball teams, if you look at the three positions that aren't a point or a post, you generally will find a guy like Vander.
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 15, 2012, 03:17:44 PM
No one's going to the NBA who can't make a 12 foot jumper or finish lay-ups. The sad part is, Vander's best offensive game is making free throws (which makes no f'ing sense and is soo frustrating!).
Ben Wallace
Dennis Rodman
There are probably literally dozens of others
We'll all be happier if VB's offense can tick up a notch or two. I'm sure he feels that way too. The reality is that this year's MU team might be a bit offensively challenged and that we're going to have to win with solid D, by limiting our own turnovers, and with decent rebounding.
I'm still hoping to see an excellent trap defense where points can be manufactured off forced turnovers.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 15, 2012, 04:56:14 PM
Ben Wallace
Dennis Rodman
Uhhh, they were never paid a penny for making a basket.
Quote from: unforgiven on November 15, 2012, 05:00:03 PM
Uhhh, they were never paid a penny for making a basket.
no kidding, that's the point.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 15, 2012, 05:04:53 PM
no kidding, that's the point.
But it overlooks the prima facie that Vander Blue must have a shooting skill set in order to make the League. Comparing his shooting to Wallace & Rodman is obtuse.
Quote from: CTWarrior on November 15, 2012, 03:17:00 PM
I usually agree with you Guns, but I have to disagree here. I simply can't imagine someone watching those two guys play offense and think they're about the same. The stats may be similar, but if you take away his fast break layup per game, I honestly think Vander shoots less than 30% from the floor in the half-court. Mayo had a long slump where he couldn't make a shot, but is is much more fluid and dynamic than Blue with the ball in his hands. I also agree with you that Mayo's absence is not going to kill our season.
I think we are getting into semantics.
Todd is a better shooter. The numbers reflect that. The eye test reflects that.
I just don't think there is MILES between them as what has been implied.
Everybody wants Todd to be a shooter. You know how many 3's he made in conf. play?
11. I don't know that we can expect him to come out and be some great offensive threat.
He has less warts than Vander, certainly. But, again, I don't think there are miles between them.
I've never seen a topic on this site get so off-topic and disjointed while still maintaining the illusion of being on-topic.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 15, 2012, 05:16:54 PM
I've never seen a topic on this site get so off-topic and disjointed while still maintaining the illusion of being on-topic.
Nazis
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 15, 2012, 05:16:54 PM
I've never seen a topic on this site get so off-topic and disjointed while still maintaining the illusion of being on-topic.
Really? I find that to be SOP.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 15, 2012, 04:56:14 PM
Ben Wallace
Dennis Rodman
There are probably literally dozens of others
The day Blue starts averaging 10 rebounds a game is the day people stop complaining about his shooting.
Quote from: unforgiven on November 15, 2012, 05:07:48 PM
But it overlooks the prima facie that Vander Blue must have a shooting skill set in order to make the League. Comparing his shooting to Wallace & Rodman is obtuse.
Quote from: The Equalizer on November 15, 2012, 07:12:11 PM
The day Blue starts averaging 10 rebounds a game is the day people stop complaining about his shooting.
Guys, reading comprehension is your friend. My post was in direct response to the post I quoted which asserted that everybody in the NBA could make a 12 foot jump shot, which is absolutely not true. My post had nothing to do with Vander making the league or with comparing his rebounding to the players I mentioned.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 15, 2012, 08:14:17 PM
Guys, reading comprehension is your friend. My post was in direct response to the post I quoted which asserted that everybody in the NBA could make a 12 foot jump shot, which is absolutely not true. My post had nothing to do with Vander making the league or with comparing his rebounding to the players I mentioned.
Just because a response is technically correct doesn't mean it has any context to the discussion at hand. If we we talking a QB and said "no one has ever made it to the NFL that couldn't throw the ball 30 yards," you would look like either an idiot or an a-hole if you started rattling off kickers. It was pretty clear were we talking about guards/forwards. The guys you listed are in a total different category and don't even come close to comparing to a player like Blue.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 15, 2012, 08:14:17 PM
Guys, reading comprehension is your friend. My post was in direct response to the post I quoted which asserted that everybody in the NBA could make a 12 foot jump shot, which is absolutely not true. My post had nothing to do with Vander making the league or with comparing his rebounding to the players I mentioned.
Was it Himmler or Jodl who was deadly from 12? As we know, Goering was the prototype for Dejuan Blair and Gardner - big, wide body who took up paint. In Goering's case, he could sky.