Concerned...

[Aughnanure]

And you failed to compare Vander's freshman year Big East campaign to Mayos...we can also look at last year's NCAA tourney (3 games):

Vander:  5 of 22 shooting for 16 points with 16 rebounds and 1 steal.  Mayo: 9 of 20 shooting for 29 points, 16 rebounds, 6 steals

5 of 22 is terrible.

[Aughnanure]

That's the thing...no, he didn't. Let's compare the first 15 games of both guys careers:

Todd Mayo

10.2 ppg (High 22)
2.7 rpg (High 5)
1.3 apg (High 4)
0.5 spg (High 2)
21.2 mpg
43.6 FG%
37.5 3P%
76.7 FT%

Vander Blue

9.7 ppg (High 21)
3.7 rpg (High 9)
2.8 apg (High 6)
1.7 spg (High 4)
24.5 mpg
49.1 FG%
23.5 3P%
66.0 FT%

Those numbers are very similar. Slight edge to Todd in ppg, better from three and the stripe, but Vander has a big edge in rebounding, assists, steals, and overall field goal percentage. I know there's this narrative that Vander sucks and always has, and I hate to destroy that absurd lie for you (okay, no I don't) but both his career and Todd's started off pretty darn similar.

And for what it's worth, by including the first two Big East games, Todd's scoring average went up while Vander's went down. If you go strictly by the freshman non-conference season, Vander actually outscored Todd by 7 points.

Sweet, he had a few good games and got a bunch of rebound/putback points. That's super awesome. Do your eyes honestly deceive you that much? Vander is not an offensive threat, and is basically a black-hole offensively on this team (which is not good for a guard, esp when our pg isn't much of a factor offensively either).

I really hope Vander can make shots and finish at the rim this year, but its now his 3rd year and hasn't really shown improvement offensively. It's nice you cite rebounding and steal stats as proof of an offensive game, when in reality rebounding and steals are the only way he gets his points.

As much as I get that the overt 'hate' on Vander is sometimes out of line, the commitment to defending him to any criticism is getting silly. As good as he is defensively, he is simply not a factor on the offensive side of the ball. Cannot create his own shot. Cannot shoot from the outside. Cannot finish at the rim.

[GGGG]

Sweet, he had a few good games and got a bunch of rebound/putback points. That's super awesome. Do your eyes honestly deceive you that much? Vander is not an offensive threat, and is basically a black-hole offensively on this team (which is not good for a guard, esp when our pg isn't much of a factor offensively either).

I really hope Vander can make shots and finish at the rim this year, but its now his 3rd year and hasn't really shown improvement offensively. It's nice you cite rebounding and steal stats as proof of an offensive game, when in reality rebounding and steals are the only way he gets his points.

Those points count right?  Did they change a rule or something that changed that?

As much as I get that the overt 'hate' on Vander is sometimes out of line, the commitment to defending him to any criticism is getting silly. As good as he is defensively, he is simply not a factor on the offensive side of the ball. Cannot create his own shot. Cannot shoot from the outside. Cannot finish at the rim.

No one...not a single person here thinks that he should be defended from any criticism.  And honestly most people would agree with you that offensively he isn't a factor in that you can't give him the ball and say "get us two."  That's obvious.

What I can't stand is that people use only this factor to judge him and say things like "he isn't good." Well, that's just being basketball dumb.  He is a great defender.  He has shown that consistently since he has been here.  He also rebounds well for his position.  Those are things that matter to a basketball team and people don't seem to realize that.  Buzz seems to realize this however since he is going on his second year of starting on what one of the best basketball teams in the country. 

And don't get me started on the whole slap-of-five crap....

[brewcity77]

Sweet, he had a few good games and got a bunch of rebound/putback points. That's super awesome. Do your eyes honestly deceive you that much? Vander is not an offensive threat, and is basically a black-hole offensively on this team (which is not good for a guard, esp when our pg isn't much of a factor offensively either).

Don't be stupid. Those weren't a few good games, he was consistently good for his first 10 or so weeks. As good as Mayo was over the same stretch. Vander's offense definitely declined after that, but no one was bitching about this 2 years ago because the issues you seem to think are constantly evident simply weren't at that time.

I really hope Vander can make shots and finish at the rim this year, but its now his 3rd year and hasn't really shown improvement offensively. It's nice you cite rebounding and steal stats as proof of an offensive game, when in reality rebounding and steals are the only way he gets his points.

Are 2 points off a jumper with 13 left on the shot clock worth more than 2 points from a tip-in or a fast-break off a steal? And him hitting 49% was more than just rebounding and steals.

As much as I get that the overt 'hate' on Vander is sometimes out of line, the commitment to defending him to any criticism is getting silly. As good as he is defensively, he is simply not a factor on the offensive side of the ball. Cannot create his own shot. Cannot shoot from the outside. Cannot finish at the rim.

I never said Vander didn't have deficiencies. But you said Todd showed more offensively in the first half of last year than Vander ever did. While it may not have been an intentional lie, it was a blatantly untrue statement. Vander still has a ways to go on offense. He needs more of those shots to drop. But if he can get 2 more makes a game he's averaging double-figures in scoring. I don't think he'll ever be a DJO or Jerel, but 10 ppg this year and 12 ppg next year is completely realistic, and when you consider the rest of what he brings to the table coupled with the talent that surrounds him, that will be plenty.

[Benny B]

That's the thing...no, he didn't. Let's compare the first 15 games of both guys careers:

Todd Mayo

10.2 ppg (High 22)
2.7 rpg (High 5)
1.3 apg (High 4)
0.5 spg (High 2)
21.2 mpg
43.6 FG%
37.5 3P%
76.7 FT%

Vander Blue

9.7 ppg (High 21)
3.7 rpg (High 9)
2.8 apg (High 6)
1.7 spg (High 4)
24.5 mpg
49.1 FG%
23.5 3P%
66.0 FT%

Those numbers are very similar. Slight edge to Todd in ppg, better from three and the stripe, but Vander has a big edge in rebounding, assists, steals, and overall field goal percentage. I know there's this narrative that Vander sucks and always has, and I hate to destroy that absurd lie for you (okay, no I don't) but both his career and Todd's started off pretty darn similar.

And for what it's worth, by including the first two Big East games, Todd's scoring average went up while Vander's went down. If you go strictly by the freshman non-conference season, Vander actually outscored Todd by 7 points.

People can come up with statistics to prove anything.  14% of people know that.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Sweet, he had a few good games and got a bunch of rebound/putback points. That's super awesome. Do your eyes honestly deceive you that much? Vander is not an offensive threat, and is basically a black-hole offensively on this team (which is not good for a guard, esp when our pg isn't much of a factor offensively either).

I really hope Vander can make shots and finish at the rim this year, but its now his 3rd year and hasn't really shown improvement offensively. It's nice you cite rebounding and steal stats as proof of an offensive game, when in reality rebounding and steals are the only way he gets his points.

As much as I get that the overt 'hate' on Vander is sometimes out of line, the commitment to defending him to any criticism is getting silly. As good as he is defensively, he is simply not a factor on the offensive side of the ball. Cannot create his own shot. Cannot shoot from the outside. Cannot finish at the rim.

Here's the thing:

Todd's numbers and Vander's numbers are similar.

I don't think Player A can be considered and offensive dynamo while Player B is considered offensively inept, can they?

I understand the eye test and all, but they can't be THAT different. Todd is a good player, and at this point, better offensively than Vander (hell, maybe he's better overall, too).

But, he's not Novak. I don't think you can't just plug him in and expect that MU's offense is suddenly going to be a ton better. Todd is going to have his own struggles on offense, probably similar to what he struggled with last year.

[Aughnanure]

Here's the thing:

Todd's numbers and Vander's numbers are similar.

I don't think Player A can be considered and offensive dynamo while Player B is considered offensively inept, can they?

I understand the eye test and all, but they can't be THAT different. Todd is a good player, and at this point, better offensively than Vander (hell, maybe he's better overall, too).

But, he's not Novak. I don't think you can't just plug him in and expect that MU's offense is suddenly going to be a ton better. Todd is going to have his own struggles on offense, probably similar to what he struggled with last year.

Did I say Mayo was an offensive dynamo? No. Cause he isn't. But I certainly had (cause it seems that's now long gone) more hope for him.

[Aughnanure]

No one...not a single person here thinks that he should be defended from any criticism.  And honestly most people would agree with you that offensively he isn't a factor in that you can't give him the ball and say "get us two."  That's obvious.

That's the thing. I write one thing criticizing him, you get three responses telling you you're an idiot cause he plays D and rebounds. It's like hydra.

[GGGG]

That's the thing. I write one thing criticizing him, you get three responses telling you you're an idiot cause he plays D and rebounds. It's like hydra.

I never said you were an idiot.  I said that those who label Vander as "not good" are.  I was mostly countering your point that people feel that he should be immune to "any criticism."  I certainly don't.

[Aughnanure]

No one...not a single person here thinks that he should be defended from any criticism.  And honestly most people would agree with you that offensively he isn't a factor in that you can't give him the ball and say "get us two."  That's obvious.

What I can't stand is that people use only this factor to judge him and say things like "he isn't good." Well, that's just being basketball dumb.  He is a great defender.  He has shown that consistently since he has been here.  He also rebounds well for his position.  Those are things that matter to a basketball team and people don't seem to realize that.  Buzz seems to realize this however since he is going on his second year of starting on what one of the best basketball teams in the country. 

And don't get me started on the whole slap-of-five crap....

Yeah, and that's a f***ing problem. He's your starting 2 guard and he can't get you points unless it's given to him on a silver platter (and even then...). You can't just be great on one side of the ball in basketball. Just like how you gotta play D to be on the court, not being able to play O is equally problematic.

it's not that he isn't a great offensive player, it's that he's an awful offensive player. So great on D, terrible on O -  decent? Good? Solid? But far from great or one of our best players (we should hope).

...and I'm not getting started on the Five thing. I don't and never did care about it.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Did I say Mayo was an offensive dynamo? No. Cause he isn't. But I certainly had (cause it seems that's now long gone) more hope for him.

That's fine, but your implication is that Mayo's 10.2 points gave you hope while Mayo's 9.7 gives you no hope.

They don't seem far enough apart in actual numbers or in the eye test to think that Todd is a good offensive player and Vander is bad.

They are both pretty average, maybe even below average, honestly.

This is probably getting into more of a semantics issue than anything else. I think cautious optimism for Todd Mayo's game is realistic. For Vander, I'd exercise a little more caution.

[Aughnanure]

I never said you were an idiot.  I said that those who label Vander as "not good" are.  I was mostly countering your point that people feel that he should be immune to "any criticism."  I certainly don't.

I know, wasn't technically quoting you.

[Aughnanure]

That's fine, but your implication is that Mayo's 10.2 points gave you hope while Mayo's 9.7 gives you no hope.

They don't seem far enough apart in actual numbers or in the eye test to think that Todd is a good offensive player and Vander is bad.

They are both pretty average, maybe even below average, honestly.

This is probably getting into more of a semantics issue than anything else. I think cautious optimism for Todd Mayo's game is realistic. For Vander, I'd exercise a little more caution.

If you don't think they look far enough a part in the eye test, I don't know what to tell you. Though I agree that Mayo is probably just average, right now.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

That's the thing. I write one thing criticizing him, you get three responses telling you you're an idiot cause he plays D and rebounds. It's like hydra.

Honestly, I've written a LOT of Vander critiques so far this year (check my posting history).

Nobody has called me a name.

If you post good, accurate, content and commentary, people don't come at you.

The "haters" earn the label through hyperbole and poor basketball acumen.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

If you don't think they look far enough a part in the eye test, I don't know what to tell you. Though I agree that Mayo is probably just average, right now.

My eye test of all 30+ games last year tells me they aren't that far apart.

I saw Todd look bad, and I also saw him not get any minutes at points last year. That's doesn't mean he's bad, but it tempers my enthusiasm.

[GGGG]

You can't just be great on one side of the ball in basketball. Just like how you gotta play D to be on the court, not being able to play O is equally problematic.

Well of course you can.  It happens even in the NBA.  There are great scorers who can't defend and vice versa.

It would just be more helpful if Wilson and Junior could score like Durant and Westbrook.  But they aren't...but that doesn't mean that it only falls on Vander to provide that scoring.  (And it doesn't matter than he is "the starting two guard" because you can get points from anywhere....not to mention that the traditional 1-5 positions are obsolete.)

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Well of course you can.  It happens even in the NBA.  There are great scorers who can't defend and vice versa.

It would just be more helpful if Wilson and Junior could score like Durant and Westbrook.  But they aren't...but that doesn't mean that it only falls on Vander to provide that scoring.  (And it doesn't matter than he is "the starting two guard" because you can get points from anywhere....not to mention that the traditional 1-5 positions are obsolete.)

Actually, there is another guy on the roster who everybody seems to love who has trouble playing at both ends of the floor.

[Aughnanure]

Honestly, I've written a LOT of Vander critiques so far this year (check my posting history).

Nobody has called me a name.

If you post good, accurate, content and commentary, people don't come at you.

The "haters" earn the label through hyperbole and poor basketball acumen.

Maybe read above? Wasn't quoting you.

[Aughnanure]

Actually, there is another guy on the roster who everybody seems to love who has trouble playing at both ends of the floor.

Cadougan?

[brewcity77]

That's the thing. I write one thing criticizing him, you get three responses telling you you're an idiot cause he plays D and rebounds. It's like hydra.

You basically said Vander never showed anything like what Mayo did his first half season. I pointed out that both of them had nearly identical first half seasons.

You can't just be great on one side of the ball in basketball.

You can be, and you can be very successful being great on one side of the ball. We have had many guys over the years that have been great on one side of the ball. Blue is great on one side of the ball. Both Gardner and Otule are great on one side of the ball (maybe Chris has legit offensive game now, it will take more than 2 games to convince me). Junior has generally been great on one side of the ball (offensive, his D has been average at best).

But you can get away with that because it's a team game. It's okay if Junior lets his guy get by him if CO is there to block the shot just like it's okay if Otule can't hit a shot outside of 3 feet if Junior always gets him the ball in great position.

I wish everyone was Jae or Jimmy, but guys like that are few and far between. And wherever you don't have guys that are great on both sides, the guys better be good on at least one side. As long as we have enough guys good on the offensive end and enough guys good on the defensive end, I trust Buzz to balance it out just fine.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Cadougan?

Think BIGGER. Very Big. The Biggest.

[CTWarrior]

Well of course you can.  It happens even in the NBA.  There are great scorers who can't defend and vice versa.

It would just be more helpful if Wilson and Junior could score like Durant and Westbrook.  But they aren't...but that doesn't mean that it only falls on Vander to provide that scoring.  (And it doesn't matter than he is "the starting two guard" because you can get points from anywhere....not to mention that the traditional 1-5 positions are obsolete.)

All of what you said is true, but I think for the vast majority of teams the wings (SG and SFs) are scorers.  There's a reason for that.  It's like being a 1B/LF/DH in baseball.  In baseball, those are the positions that the largest number of people can handle defensively, so since there is a much larger pool to choose from, you really should be a great hitter to play those positions.

In basketball, the 6-2 to 6-6 guys who aren't great ball handlers or very strong inside guys tend to be talented scorers because that is where the highest concentration of players are, so you have the most guys to choose from to fill those slots.

[Aughnanure]

Think BIGGER. Very Big. The Biggest.

He is far from the problem.

[Aughnanure]

You basically said Vander never showed anything like what Mayo did his first half season. I pointed out that both of them had nearly identical first half seasons. Stats wise, sure. Reality? No.

You can be, and you can be very successful being great on one side of the ball. We have had many guys over the years that have been great on one side of the ball. Blue is great on one side of the ball. Both Gardner and Otule are great on one side of the ball (maybe Chris has legit offensive game now, it will take more than 2 games to convince me). Junior has generally been great on one side of the ball (offensive, his D has been average at best). The point was not that you have to be good or great on both sides, it's that you can't be a negative/non-factor on one of them. And Junior is great offensively? Okkayyy.

But you can get away with that because it's a team game. It's okay if Junior lets his guy get by him if CO is there to block the shot just like it's okay if Otule can't hit a shot outside of 3 feet if Junior always gets him the ball in great position.

I wish everyone was Jae or Jimmy, but guys like that are few and far between. And wherever you don't have guys that are great on both sides, the guys better be good on at least one side. As long as we have enough guys good on the offensive end and enough guys good on the defensive end, I trust Buzz to balance it out just fine. That's what I'm worried about.

[CTWarrior]

My eye test of all 30+ games last year tells me they aren't that far apart.

I usually agree with you Guns, but I have to disagree here.  I simply can't imagine someone watching those two guys play offense and think they're about the same.  The stats may be similar, but if you take away his fast break layup per game, I honestly think Vander shoots less than 30% from the floor in the half-court.  Mayo had a long slump where he couldn't make a shot, but is is much more fluid and dynamic than Blue with the ball in his hands.  I also agree with you that Mayo's absence is not going to kill our season.