MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: garekis on September 12, 2012, 07:48:31 AM
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The Big East is about to get smaller and the ACC is about to get larger. No, it's not us. Welcome to the Big East, Aresco. In the short term, life in the Big East/West/North/South ain't gettin' any less complicated. In the long term, this conference is like an aging Vegas casino - it's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when".
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Wait...are you saying that the ACC is going to take additional teams besides Pitt and Syracuse? How do you know this?
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In all sports but football. Garekis was right.
https://twitter.com/McMurphyESPN/status/245879586649436160
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ESPN reporting ND to join all sports except football. Will play 5 games against ACC schools per year.
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Further crumbling of the Big East. ND to ACC, except for football.
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8369070/sources-notre-dame-football-acc
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.... Notre Dame's going to the ACC. We've been hearing this for so long it's become nauseating.
I hate to lose ND basketball, but frankly, if it's going to happen, no big loss. They weren't contributing to the football fund any way, so it's not a crippling loss - by a long shot.
That is, IF it's true. It's might be a different rumor originating from the same place... but if the Tribune is reporting it, it must be true, huh?
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/chi-sources-notre-dame-to-announce-acc-move-today-20120912,0,4749218.story
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While perhaps not crippling, Notre Dame is a big loss. Notre Dame is a big name university and a big name sports program. And you know what should scare the sh*t out of BE fans? If the ACC wants to round out the whole thing with a sixteenth, non-football playing member and decides to add a school like Georgetown.
This is exactly why I though the basketball schools should have separated a year ago. The product was completely watered down with the addition of SMU, Houston, UCF, etc. Notre Dame wasn't going to hang around with that bunch.
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Further evidence that all the ACC and ESPN cares about is destroying the Big East. There is no reason for the ACC to take ND without football. I despise ESPN.
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This is bad.
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Well, it was a nice conference we had once....
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Seeing as football will supposedly stay independent, this lends credence to the theory that the Cuse and Pitt moves were more about hurting the Big East brand than simply a football minded move. Why else would the ACC take in ND and exempt it's most profitable asset?
Also, while throwing out wild speculation, I find it curious that ESPN broke the news, seeing as they have been behind Yahoo and CBS on most major college stories the past few years. Coupled with their ongoing Big East TV negotiations, something doesn't smell right.
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Can we call dibs on playing the last Big East game in the Joyce Center? I want to win and see Buzz Irish Jig all over center court
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I know I'll get lambasted for this, but I really, really, really don't think this is a huge loss. The ND name is great and all, but:
1) They weren't ever going to contribute to a football contract in the Big East
2) Their basketball team isn't a national draw like the football team is, so "adding of markets" for an ACC Network might get you Chicago, but not on basic cable.
3) It's ND. Who the f___ cares?
I sincerely hope that Jenkins (ND's Pres) has been in contact with Pilarz, DeGioia (G-Town), Donohue (Nova), Harrington (StJ's), etc. for some time on this decision. I would hate for this to be a situation where he simply turned his back on the brethren.
In any event... the Big East is NOT dead. Far from it, in fact. Actually, it's one fewer school with which we have to split the upcoming TV contract.
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Further evidence that all the ACC and ESPN cares about is destroying the Big East. There is no reason for the ACC to take ND without football. I despise ESPN.
There is a big, football related reason to take ND. I am assuming that ND is going to have something written into its agreement, similar to the one with the BE, that ND gets access to certain bowls that the ACC plays in. This makes all of the ACC's bowl arrangements that much more valuable. Furthermore, getting ND playing ACC schools in football will bring more eyeballs to the set.
Also, remember that the ACC is in somewhat of a desperate need to strengthen its football product. To have ND associated with them, even not as a full member, is helpful with the changes to the BCS landscape. The ACC is clearly the fifth of the BCS conferences...and the Big East was significantly behind them. This helps them.
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Just surprised that if ND was to join a conference, it was all in with the Big Ten.
So much for the new BE commissioner being appointed a few months ago. The prior guy probably saw handwriting on the wall.
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Just surprised that if ND was to join a conference, it was all in with the Big Ten.
So much for the new BE commissioner being appointed a few months ago. The prior guy probably saw handwriting on the wall.
Big Ten was all or none...they want ND FB
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I do not see it as bad. Notre Dame was always the outlier with their football program being independent. That in my opinion made them a Big East football destabilizer. The fact that they are remaining independent in football is good, since the ACC will not need another football team to balance out their conference. The only question would be, if they would want another basketball team, which might bring Georgetown into play. That would be bad. However, my guess is that the ACC stands pat until Notre Dame commits to football.
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And Seth Davis nails it on the head.
https://twitter.com/SethDavisHoops/status/245884040744402944
"The Catholic/non-FB schools in Big East will someday face a choice: Remain on a sinking ship, or break off and form their own conference?"
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Hoping the new commissioner doesn't now think football member 14 should be basketball backfill as well. The last thing we need is to dilute basketball further by adding ECU. If that happens I hope we're ready to bail.
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[quote author=pux90mex link=topic=33571.msg408151#msg408151 date=1347458355
Also, while throwing out wild speculation, I find it curious that ESPN broke the news, seeing as they have been behind Yahoo and CBS on most major college stories the past few years. Coupled with their ongoing Big East TV negotiations, something doesn't smell right.
[/quote]
The reporter who has been on top of conference expansion this whole time, Brett McMurphy, moved from CBS to ESPN very recently. I'm assuming that's the reason ESPN broke the news.
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Can we call dibs on playing the last Big East game in the Joyce Center? I want to win and see Buzz Irish Jig all over center court
I would hope for this even if they weren't leaving.
Time to form the new basketball only conference!
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The reporter who has been on top of conference expansion this whole time, Brett McMurphy, moved from CBS to ESPN very recently. I'm assuming that's the reason ESPN broke the news.
Thanks for that Cheebs. Makes more sense now.
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Crap.
I hope we're chatting with the A10.
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There is a big, football related reason to take ND. I am assuming that ND is going to have something written into its agreement, similar to the one with the BE, that ND gets access to certain bowls that the ACC plays in. This makes all of the ACC's bowl arrangements that much more valuable. Furthermore, getting ND playing ACC schools in football will bring more eyeballs to the set.
Also, remember that the ACC is in somewhat of a desperate need to strengthen its football product. To have ND associated with them, even not as a full member, is helpful with the changes to the BCS landscape. The ACC is clearly the fifth of the BCS conferences...and the Big East was significantly behind them. This helps them.
Did ND ever get a new deal done with NBC? If they can't get it worked out and find themselves in need of a conference, ACC football could become relevant again. Low risk, high reward.
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The problem I have with the "not a big loss" mentality is that ND was a big name brand piece of the league. This hurts our status immediately as our contract negotiations start at the end of the month. Just look at how our basketball lineup will change as we attempt to negotiate with NBC, CBS, Fox, and anyone else who might have been interested: ND, Syracuse, Pitt, and WVU out, UCF, SMU, Houston, Temple, Memphis in. That's a big, big downgrade. The league's marketability is going down because the quality is declining, and ND probably had a bigger fanbase than any of the other teams on that list.
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Another issue, they were ranked second in lacrosse last year and with Syracuse also out it leaves a pair of 8-7 teams as the Big East's best. None of the new schools currently have lacrosse either. On the bright side, if the basketball conference were to form they'd only lose Rutgers from this list, and if they were to sign up some A-10 teams St. Joe's and UMass play.
Big East lacrosse will be down to Georgetown, Nova, St. John's, Rutgers, Providence, Marquette. Combined zero NCAA tourney wins since '08.
http://twitter.com/D1scourse/status/245882126598279170
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ND will be playing for 3rd place in the ACC every year at best. UNC and Duke rule that conference, and adding ND isn't going to change that.
Playing 5 ACC teams a year in FB isn't going to raise the ND profile either. Look at how BC and Miami have fared in their moves to the ACC. Either program is now irrelevant in football and basketball.
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The issue is going to be when Georgetown (I would assume, it fits the ACC Mission) jumps to the ACC for All Sports. It's going to happen. They are not sitting at 15.
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And Seth Davis nails it on the head.
https://twitter.com/SethDavisHoops/status/245884040744402944
"The Catholic/non-FB schools in Big East will someday face a choice: Remain on a sinking ship, or break off and form their own conference?"
Let the speculation over teams in a Non-Football conference begin!
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ND will be playing for 3rd place in the ACC every year at best. UNC and Duke rule that conference, and adding ND isn't going to change that.
Playing 5 ACC teams a year in FB isn't going to raise the ND profile either. Look at how BC and Miami have fared in their moves to the ACC. Either program is now irrelevant in football and basketball.
I can pretty much guaranty you that Boston College and Miami have no regrets whatsoever about their decisions to leave. Seriously, if you are a football playing member of the BCS right now, would you rather be in the ACC or the Big East?
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The issue is going to be when Georgetown (I would assume, it fits the ACC Mission) jumps to the ACC for All Sports. It's going to happen. They are not sitting at 15.
You hit the nail on the head. The ACC proved that you can pull the Big East apart by taking a school without Football (even though there are the 5 games per year). Georgetown to the ACC would make sense.
You have to think these conferences would see the value of adding some bball schools. More diverse portfolio and brings in alittle extra $$$
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The issue is going to be when Georgetown (I would assume, it fits the ACC Mission) jumps to the ACC for All Sports. It's going to happen. They are not sitting at 15.
yup. makes them 16 team hoops and 14 team football. really bad news for the conference.
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You hit the nail on the head. The ACC proved that you can pull the Big East apart by taking a school without Football (even though there are the 5 games per year). Georgetown to the ACC would make sense.
You have to think these conferences would see the value of adding some bball schools. More diverse portfolio and brings in alittle extra $$$
I think Marquette should push to get into the ACC..
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Here is the thread on the Georgetown message board:
http://hoyatalk2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=26061 (http://hoyatalk2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=26061)
I like the line, "At least we are getting rid of all of the annoying schools. But that's little comfort."
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What happened to ND & The Big East Saturdays on NBC?
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What becomes of the remaining BE schools?
Marquette, Villanova, Georgetown*, DePaul, Providence, St. John's, Seton Hall form a new conference with a few A-10/ConfUSA/MVC teams.
Cincy - Big 12?
UConn - Wants the ACC
Louisville - Big 12? SEC?
Rutgers - ?
USF - ?
* - may go to the ACC
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This is not good.
If (and more likely when) the Big East implosion happens, the Basketball only schools better band together tight and all make a commitment to continue to spend big $ in hoops.
If they start a basketball only conference, and schools get conservative, we will be headed for an A-10 type existence. A couple of good teams you have heard of, but not a lot of national exposure.
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All this as TV negotiations just commenced this week......
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What happened to ND & The Big East Saturdays on NBC?
It still might happen. BE still has to take the best deal out there.
I think Marquette should push to get into the ACC..
Good luck with that.
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The problem I have with the "not a big loss" mentality is that ND was a big name brand piece of the league. This hurts our status immediately as our contract negotiations start at the end of the month. Just look at how our basketball lineup will change as we attempt to negotiate with NBC, CBS, Fox, and anyone else who might have been interested: ND, Syracuse, Pitt, and WVU out, UCF, SMU, Houston, Temple, Memphis in. That's a big, big downgrade. The league's marketability is going down because the quality is declining, and ND probably had a bigger fanbase than any of the other teams on that list.
This is a huge loss... The only way I can see someone thinking differently is if they are blinded by their ND hate. Hopefully, Marquette will continue the tradition of scheduling ND as a non-conference catchup. I'm still amazed at how such an awesome conference with our history has dismantled seemingly overnight.
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This is a huge loss... The only way I can see someone thinking differently is if they are blinded by their ND hate. Hopefully, Marquette will continue the tradition of scheduling ND as a non-conference catchup. I'm still amazed at how such an awesome conference with our history has dismantled seemingly overnight.
It's a basketball-first conference that's residing in a football-first, second and third sports world.
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According to Darren Rovell:
Notre Dame is going to have to get out of Big East by 2014 the latest as NBC deal comes up in 2015 and they have to know status.
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What becomes of the remaining BE schools?
My guesses:
Cincy - C-USA after Big 12 takes a pass
UConn - ACC finally relents and takes them, but only if ND will agree to move to football membership
Louisville - Big 12
Rutgers - Massive step down to the MAC after ACC says no and C-USA just doesn't make enough sense
USF - Most likely C-USA, but if FSU goes to the Big 12, I think USF gets the call to the ACC before Rutgers
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can't sugar coat it. it sucks.
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Dear Notre Dame,
Make the check payable to Big East Conference and good riddance. Enjoy that rivalry with Clemson and going 6-12 in the ACC every year.
Thank you.
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Another motivation for the ACC according to Wetzel.
https://twitter.com/DanWetzel/status/245898260420648960
"Source: Bringing in Notre Dame will allow ACC to ask for additional compensation in ESPN deal."
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My guesses:
Cincy - C-USA after Big 12 takes a pass
UConn - ACC finally relents and takes them, but only if ND will agree to move to football membership
Louisville - Big 12
Rutgers - Massive step down to the MAC after ACC says no and C-USA just doesn't make enough sense
USF - Most likely C-USA, but if FSU goes to the Big 12, I think USF gets the call to the ACC before Rutgers
And what does the new BEast/A-10 look like? I'm part of the camp that has believed that a basketball only conference is our only long term alternative. BEast back to its original mission statement.
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Another motivation for the ACC according to Wetzel.
https://twitter.com/DanWetzel/status/245898260420648960
"Source: Bringing in Notre Dame will allow ACC to ask for additional compensation in ESPN deal."
Sounds like the ACC is/was very worried the Big East really was going to get a matching TV contract. As stated several times already, it appears ESPN & the ACC are doing everything and anything possible to simply dismantle/wound the Big East. Period.
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And what does the new BEast/A-10 look like? I'm part of the camp that has believed that a basketball only conference is our only long term alternative. BEast back to its original mission statement.
Marquette
Villanova
Georgetown
DePaul
Providence
St. John's
Seton Hall
Xavier
SLU
Creighton?
St. Joe's?
Dayton?
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The problem I have with the "not a big loss" mentality is that ND was a big name brand piece of the league. This hurts our status immediately as our contract negotiations start at the end of the month. Just look at how our basketball lineup will change as we attempt to negotiate with NBC, CBS, Fox, and anyone else who might have been interested: ND, Syracuse, Pitt, and WVU out, UCF, SMU, Houston, Temple, Memphis in. That's a big, big downgrade. The league's marketability is going down because the quality is declining, and ND probably had a bigger fanbase than any of the other teams on that list.
Yep yep and yep. I know the BEast has been trumpeting the "we've grown!" message for a couple years now and frankly, who can blame them. It's all they CAN say.
I equate this in musical terms. You have a super conference of Rush, Pearl Jam, Led Zeppelin, the Beatles, R.E.M. and Kanye West. Pearl Jam and Led Zeppelin leave. You replace them with Nickelback and Creed.
Doesn't matter that you've now added a Canadian band from Vancouver (Nback) and some preacher-band from Florida and grown into new markets. The bottom line is...YOU LOST PEARL JAM AND LED ZEPPELIN REPLACED THEM WITH CREED AND NICKELBACK!!!
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Dear Notre Dame,
Make the check payable to Big East Conference and good riddance. Enjoy that rivalry with Clemson and going 6-12 in the ACC every year.
Thank you.
Dear ecompt,
Thank you for your continued support of Marquette Athletics. We hope you enjoy the thrilling 2017/18 schedule of conference games against powerhouses like LaSalle, Xavier, Dayton and St. Louis! Your deposit of $500 will be due in two weeks. Thank you.
Marquette Ticket Office, June 2017
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Take it for what it's worth. He's being somewhat respected by UConn posters.
@MHver3
Hearing the ACC could add one more non football school if ND joins.
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Yep yep and yep. I know the BEast has been trumpeting the "we've grown!" message for a couple years now and frankly, who can blame them. It's all they CAN say.
I equate this in musical terms. You have a super conference of Rush, Pearl Jam, Led Zeppelin, the Beatles, R.E.M. and Kanye West. Pearl Jam and Led Zeppelin leave. You replace them with Nickelback and Creed.
Doesn't matter that you've now added a Canadian band from Vancouver (Nback) and some preacher-band from Florida and grown into new markets. The bottom line is...YOU LOST PEARL JAM AND LED ZEPPELIN REPLACED THEM WITH CREED AND NICKELBACK!!!
But we get access to Avril Lavigne...
Who am I kidding, she sucks too.
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Sounds like the ACC is/was very worried the Big East really was going to get a matching TV contract. As stated several times already, it appears ESPN & the ACC are doing everything and anything possible to simply dismantle/wound the Big East. Period.
I understand why it may look that way. However the ACC is expanding because it sees growth opportunities. Where else is it going to get these schools from? No other BCS schools is going to leave its conference to join the ACC...that leaves the Big East as the only other conference to be poached. (Outside of the lightweights like CUSA, etc.)
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Dear ecompt,
Thank you for your continued support of Marquette Athletics. We hope you enjoy the thrilling 2017/18 schedule of conference games against powerhouses like LaSalle, Xavier, Dayton and St. Louis! Your deposit of $500 will be due in two weeks. Thank you.
Marquette Ticket Office, June 2017
Well, it's that or Central Florida, SMU and Houston. Pick your poison.
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I'm no expert in this confrence stuff and don't pretend to be, but I would love if some how we got invited/forced our way into the Big 12. I think other than the Big 10 it makes the most sense geographiclly and think we can maintain great competition and a high respect level nationally.
I understand the basketball only confrence but personally think that's not the best competition. Also I do believe that G'town is going to the ACC.
Again I know nothing and this is just what I would like to see happen.
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Since when is South Bend in close proximity to the Atlantic Ocean?
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Take it for what it's worth. He's being somewhat respected by UConn posters.
@MHver3
Hearing the ACC could add one more non football school if ND joins.
Good bye, Georgetown!
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Here's a link to the article this morning in the South Bend Trib.
http://www.southbendtribune.com/sports/notredame/football/sbt-notre-dame-leaving-big-east-to-join-acc-in-all-sports-but-football-20120912,0,6080706.story
The ACC will displace 5 of ND's current football opponents. ND has a long standing history with BIG 10 teams in football. Their schedule has always included Purdue, Mich., and MSU. They also have a long time rivalry with USC and at least one of the service academys. This will probaly displace some of those relationships.
Ahhh, who cares, its ND. They suck. ;D
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This is a real "prestige" hit and will affect recruiting and also coach retention if the conference continues to disintegrate, which I think is inevitable.
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Dan Wetzel's article lays out nicely the benefits to both sides.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaab--notre-dame-protects-treasure-football-schedule-in-move-to-acc.html
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If I'm the MU AD right now, I start getting real friendly with Jim Delany and start saying some prayers that the B10 looks to add 2 hoops schools.
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My vote is for Marquette to move to the A-10.... Lets get out of this sinking Big East ship and join a steady competitive conference. (Gtown and Nova should come with)
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The problem I have with the "not a big loss" mentality is that ND was a big name brand piece of the league. This hurts our status immediately as our contract negotiations start at the end of the month. Just look at how our basketball lineup will change as we attempt to negotiate with NBC, CBS, Fox, and anyone else who might have been interested: ND, Syracuse, Pitt, and WVU out, UCF, SMU, Houston, Temple, Memphis in. That's a big, big downgrade. The league's marketability is going down because the quality is declining, and ND probably had a bigger fanbase than any of the other teams on that list.
1) The brand of ND isn't helping the basketball-only schools at this point any way.
2) Compared to having already lost Cuse, Pitt and WVU, the marginal loss of ND is minimal. The brand has a floor, and that floor was already approached before ND made it's decision.
3) ND solidifies the Chicago market for a conference network/contract, but with DePaul (and to a lesser extent, MU), you still have Chicago. You probably lose South Bend, but that's not a big deal. ND isn't going to win you a market in Texas, but SMU & Houston do. Same with western Tennessee... Memphis grabs that market, ND does not.
Look at this way... you've got 16 girls in a bar: 4 are smokin' hot, 10 are moderately attractive, and 2 are just plain ugly. Two of your smokin' girls (Pitt and Cuse) and 1 attractive girl (WVU) just left, but in walked five more girls (3 moderately attractive and 2 ugly) shortly after. If another smokin' girl (ND) leaves, does it really make a difference at that point (especially given that you didn't have a chance with her to begin with)?
And by the way, one of those girls that did walk in... she may be ugly, but she and two of her friends she came in with have a boatload of cash. A little cosmetic surgery, some new attractive friends, and all of the sudden, things aren't as bad as you thought they were going to be.
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If I'm the MU AD right now, I start getting real friendly with Jim Delany and start saying some prayers that the B10 looks to add 2 hoops schools.
If Larry Williams does this, he's a bigger moron than even the most ardent anti-LW people on this board think he is. There is no chance. None. Whatsoever. That the Big Ten is going to add non-football schools. I mean, if that were something on their radar, why not just take Notre Dame???
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Since when is South Bend in close proximity to the Atlantic Ocean?
About the same time Boise, Dallas and San Diego became part of the East..
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If Larry Williams does this, he's a bigger moron than even the most ardent anti-LW people on this board think he is. There is no chance. None. Whatsoever. That the Big Ten is going to add non-football schools. I mean, if that were something on their radar, why not just take Notre Dame???
I agree. And if we join another Football dominant conference, who says we won't be in this position in another 5-10 years?
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If Larry Williams does this, he's a bigger moron than even the most ardent anti-LW people on this board think he is. There is no chance. None. Whatsoever. That the Big Ten is going to add non-football schools. I mean, if that were something on their radar, why not just take Notre Dame???
A moron for asking the question or a moron for thinking he'd accept the invite if the B? offered?
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A moron for asking the question or a moron for thinking he'd accept the invite if the B? offered?
A moron for wasting his time thinking that the Big Ten is going to be interested in MU.
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1) The brand of ND isn't helping the basketball-only schools at this point any way.
2) Compared to having already lost Cuse, Pitt and WVU, the marginal loss of ND is minimal. The brand has a floor, and that floor was already approached before ND made it's decision.
3) ND solidifies the Chicago market for a conference network/contract, but with DePaul (and to a lesser extent, MU), you still have Chicago. You probably lose South Bend, but that's not a big deal. ND isn't going to win you a market in Texas, but SMU & Houston do. Same with western Tennessee... Memphis grabs that market, ND does not.
Look at this way... you've got 16 girls in a bar: 4 are smokin' hot, 10 are moderately attractive, and 2 are just plain ugly. Two of your smokin' girls (Pitt and Cuse) and 1 attractive girl (WVU) just left, but in walked five more girls (3 moderately attractive and 2 ugly) shortly after. If another smokin' girl (ND) leaves, does it really make a difference at that point (especially given that you didn't have a chance with her to begin with)?
And by the way, one of those girls that did walk in... she may be ugly, but she and two of her friends she came in with have a boatload of cash. A little cosmetic surgery, some new attractive friends, and all of the sudden, things aren't as bad as you thought they were going to be.
This is the first time that anyone or anything in West Virginia has been compared to an attractive girl.
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This is the first time that anyone or anything in West Virginia has been compared to an attractive girl.
That also the first time that I almost threw up a little bit for the sake of maintaining of a metaphor.
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If Larry Williams does this, he's a bigger moron than even the most ardent anti-LW people on this board think he is. There is no chance. None. Whatsoever. That the Big Ten is going to add non-football schools. I mean, if that were something on their radar, why not just take Notre Dame???
I actually disagree.
I don't think it will happen tomorrow, but conferences are looking for revenue and content.
Big 10 is creating a hockey conference. Why? Content. They never wanted to do it 10 years ago. Now they have a network, now they need to create content.
When the dust settles on the football movement/vacuum, conferences are going to continue to look for more revenue streams (sponsorships, naming of buildings/arenas, etc. etc.). This isn't going to magically stop.
In 2-4 years, the Big10 might see that additional basketball-only schools provide content and revenue without watering down the brand. If that happens, they will add more teams. (likely MU and DePaul/Creighton).
I know, I know... it sounds nuts. But, 5 years ago, a lot of the stuff happening now seemed nuts.
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Is there any chance that we get invited to the ACC to round out the basketball/other sports. We now have lacrosse and real good soccer program, two sports the ACC really likes. My thought on Georgetown leaving is that Marland and even BC would try to block them.
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A moron for wasting his time thinking that the Big Ten is going to be interested in MU.
How would a 60 second phone call to Delaney be a "waste of time."
What's the greater harm in asking the question... that he'll say no or that he might say yes?
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Is there any chance that we get invited to the ACC to round out the basketball/other sports. We now have lacrosse and real good soccer program, two sports the ACC really likes. My thought on Georgetown leaving is that Marland and even BC would try to block them.
I'd be very surprised if that happens.
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Is there any chance that we get invited to the ACC to round out the basketball/other sports. We now have lacrosse and real good soccer program, two sports the ACC really likes. My thought on Georgetown leaving is that Marland and even BC would try to block them.
My vote for redemption post of the year.
Edit: The MD blocking of GTown part, not the MU to ACC part.
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I actually disagree.
I don't think it will happen tomorrow, but conferences are looking for revenue and content.
Big 10 is creating a hockey conference. Why? Content. They never wanted to do it 10 years ago. Now they have a network, now they need to create content.
When the dust settles on the football movement/vacuum, conferences are going to continue to look for more revenue streams (sponsorships, naming of buildings/arenas, etc. etc.). This isn't going to magically stop.
In 2-4 years, the Big10 might see that additional basketball-only schools provide content and revenue without watering down the brand. If that happens, they will add more teams. (likely MU and DePaul/Creighton).
I know, I know... it sounds nuts. But, 5 years ago, a lot of the stuff happening now seemed nuts.
This is where my head was at (that's why I included the praying part). The ACC with a hypothetical Georgetown added, will dominate the entire college basketball landscape, maybe the Big Ten wont want to stand by watch it happen and feels that adding a Marquette and a Xavier could deepen their basketball league. Likely? Probably not, but who knows?
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I actually disagree.
I don't think it will happen tomorrow, but conferences are looking for revenue and content.
Big 10 is creating a hockey conference. Why? Content. They never wanted to do it 10 years ago. Now they have a network, now they need to create content.
When the dust settles on the football movement/vacuum, conferences are going to continue to look for more revenue streams (sponsorships, naming of buildings/arenas, etc. etc.). This isn't going to magically stop.
In 2-4 years, the Big10 might see that additional basketball-only schools provide content and revenue without watering down the brand. If that happens, they will add more teams. (likely MU and DePaul/Creighton).
I know, I know... it sounds nuts. But, 5 years ago, a lot of the stuff happening now seemed nuts.
I don't disagree that eventually they are going to look to other streams of revenue, but my fear is these conferences are already getting so big, and that there is still room to move to 16-18 teams with football. Are they really going to want to go to 20(+?) teams in a conference when looking to add basketball? I don't know the answer but i would say no. Granted, like you say, things happening now seemed nuts 5 years ago so that can change.
My other fear is that all this change is happening, and lets say 5 years from now we are in C-USA v.2, then when conferences try to maximize other revenue sports we come to the table as an after thought and have to take whats given from big brother football schools. If you strike now and create a really strong bball/other sports conference, you won't be left fighting for whatever scraps are left by football. When tv comes calling to try and maximize revenue, i would rather be in a strong position teamed with other really good bball schools.
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I thought only the Big East was pathetic enough to let ND get away with their "you get all our sports BUT football" bullsh*t.
I guess not.
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This is where my head was at (that's why I included the praying part). The ACC with a hypothetical Georgetown added, will dominate the entire college basketball landscape, maybe the Big Ten wont want to stand by watch it happen and feels that adding a Marquette and a Xavier could deepen their basketball league. Likely? Probably not, but who knows?
The chances of MU going to the Big 10 are probably less than 1% (not to mention that Wisco would try to block it) but a few years ago what would the odds have been of Syracuse and Pitt leaving the Big East?
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I thought only the Big East was pathetic enough to let ND get away with their "you get all our sports BUT football" bullsh*t.
I guess not.
Only time will tell. The ACC at least got them to agree to play 5 ACC teams. Granted it was to ND's benefit. But if things change in 3-5 years and they need to join a league, they will be in a much better position to get ND to join with them than anyone else.
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I don't disagree that eventually they are going to look to other streams of revenue, but my fear is these conferences are already getting so big, and that there is still room to move to 16-18 teams with football. Are they really going to want to go to 20(+?) teams in a conference when looking to add basketball? I don't know the answer but i would say no. Granted, like you say, things happening now seemed nuts 5 years ago so that can change.
My other fear is that all this change is happening, and lets say 5 years from now we are in C-USA v.2, then when conferences try to maximize other revenue sports we come to the table as an after thought and have to take whats given from big brother football schools. If you strike now and create a really strong bball/other sports conference, you won't be left fighting for whatever scraps are left by football. When tv comes calling to try and maximize revenue, i would rather be in a strong position teamed with other really good bball schools.
Well, the flip-side to my scenario is equally possible:
These new conferences might already be bloated, and if/when revenue maxes out (and maybe dips?), the idea of traveling 500 miles for a women's field hockey game might not be that appealing to an athletic department.
There are some significant logistical costs to having huge conferences. Football and basketball are really the only sports that can overcome that. Everything else is going to be a challenge.
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You guys are in flippin' la-la land...
The Big Ten has no desire to do this. None. This is a conference that went to 11 members, and then sat on adding a 12th member for almost 20 years. This is a conference that had ND on its backdoor and probably could have made this deal with them at anytime during this stretch. But they didn't.
Why would they mess around with partial members? To get a game or two more per week on the BTN???
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I guess there are worse things than losing Notre Dame.
Our conference still has national basketball powers as follows:
Georgetown
UConn
Villanova
St. John's
Louisville
Cincinnati
Marquette
Memphis (coming soon)
We should be looking at raiding the Atlantic 10 for two or three teams -- notably Dayton -- and go from there. From our standpoint, as long as we have six to 10 good basketball powers and a national ESPN television contract, I'm OK.
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Unless you are going to create divisions and odd number of teams in basketball makes more sense. Even 3 divisions of 5 teams makes more sense than 2 divisions of 8. Five teams division would result in home and away games against reams in your division, which equals 8 games and one game against all the other teams not in your division which would get you to 18 conference games. Two 8 game divisions results in 14 home and home within your division with you playing only 4 of the other 8 teams. It does not make sense to try to expand to 16. I suspose you could go to 4 divisions of 4 teams and play 6 games wihin your division and each other team once for 18 games. In either case do you put Duke and North Carolina in the same division or do they only play once a year?
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The chances of MU going to the Big 10 are probably less than 1% (not to mention that Wisco would try to block it) but a few years ago what would the odds have been of Syracuse and Pitt leaving the Big East?
1% might be accurate, but given the wild jumble currently occurring, that percentage could jump to 50%, or drop to 0% in a matter of a couple of years (or maybe even months).
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You guys are in flippin' la-la land...
The Big Ten has no desire to do this. None. This is a conference that went to 11 members, and then sat on adding a 12th member for almost 20 years. This is a conference that had ND on its backdoor and probably could have made this deal with them at anytime during this stretch. But they didn't.
Why would they mess around with partial members? To get a game or two more per week on the BTN???
You're right, it's a wild idea... but a lot of wild ideas come to fruition.
Syracuse to the ACC? That seems insane, right?
Big 10 never had any interest in Hockey... now they do. Why? for a handful of games per week? Nobody even follows college hockey outside of MN and NoDak. Turns out they see an opportunity.
The improbable happens... especially when $ is on the line.
Oh, and just to be clear, I don't think MU is going to end up in the Big10. I'm simply saying that turning a blind eye is silly. Everything is on the table right now. Keep every avenue open.
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The chances of MU going to the Big 10 are probably less than 1% (not to mention that Wisco would try to block it) but a few years ago what would the odds have been of Syracuse and Pitt leaving the Big East?
I would think there is no chance of MU going to Big 10. The Big 10 has it right in that there are not any non-football schools. Now that Notre Dame is out of the picture there is no reason for the Big 10 to add anymore schools. I think the Notre Dame move actually stabilizes things.
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Statement from Commissioner Mike Aresco
“The University of the Notre Dame has informed us that it is joining the Atlantic Coast Conference in all sports other than football. Notre Dame has been a valued member of the BIG EAST Conference and we wish them success in the future. However, Notre Dame’s departure does not change our plans. We have prestigious institutions that are excited to be a part of the BIG EAST. We remain committed to making the BIG EAST stronger than it has ever been.”
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Big 10 never had any interest in Hockey... now they do. Why? for a handful of games per week? Nobody even follows college hockey outside of MN and NoDak. Turns out they see an opportunity.
Not true. College hockey is very big here in New England. Good luck getting tickets to a Yale hockey game. Even Quinnipiac hockey (same conference as Yale) is a huge draw. (Yes, Quinnipiac......)
Same reason why UConn is joining Hockey East.
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I would think there is no chance of MU going to Big 10. The Big 10 has it right in that there are not any non-football schools. Now that Notre Dame is out of the picture there is no reason for the Big 10 to add anymore schools. I think the Notre Dame move actually stabilizes things.
You're right, but $ overcomes all rules.
The Big10 is a college athletic conference, but soon (and maybe even currently) decisions are made by the television network.
Again, odds are SUPER slim. But, don't make the mistake of getting caught up in rules and tradition. $$$ is driving the bus. $. $. $.
$.
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Can't hurt could help.
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I really don't like ND, but I am hoping that the basketball rivalry will continue once they leave. I presume MU-ND have played every year for the past, like 40 years and will miss it if it ends.
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Not true. College hockey is very big here in New England. Good luck getting tickets to a Yale hockey game. Even Quinnipiac hockey (same conference as Yale) is a huge draw. (Yes, Quinnipiac......)
Same reason why UConn is joining Hockey East.
That's right, but in the Midwest, college hockey is primarily Madison, MN (5 D1 teams), Michigan, and Nodak.
Everyplace else (in the midwest), it has a cult following, but not a lot of mass appeal.
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Villanova message board thread:
http://villanova.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=1159&tid=157767539&mid=157767539&sid=1000&style=2 (http://villanova.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=1159&tid=157767539&mid=157767539&sid=1000&style=2)
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Good bye, Georgetown!
Marquette and Depaul makes the most sense to depart to the ACC.
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Not true. College hockey is very big here in New England. Good luck getting tickets to a Yale hockey game. Even Quinnipiac hockey (same conference as Yale) is a huge draw. (Yes, Quinnipiac......)
Same reason why UConn is joining Hockey East.
And the Big Ten had an interest in hockey but simply didn't have enough members playing it. Notice that they *could* have added "hockey-only" members for years...but didn't. They waited until a sixth member made a commitment to the sport.
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That's right, but in the Midwest, college hockey is primarily Madison, MN (5 D1 teams), Michigan, and Nodak.
Everyplace else (in the midwest), it has a cult following, but not a lot of mass appeal.
The college hockey program with the fourth highest average attendance last year was Nebraska-Omaha. Also in the top 15 were Colorado College, University of Denver and Ohio State. Notre Dame comes in at #18.
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Per Andy Katz....ACC will *not* add a 16th member and is done with expansion.
"Andy KatzþESPNAndyKatz
Agree. RT mcmurphyespn: ACC will not go to 16 teams in hoops, sources tell espn. Notre Dame will be league's last addition."
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The college hockey program with the fourth highest average attendance last year was Nebraska-Omaha. Also in the top 15 were Colorado College, University of Denver and Ohio State. Notre Dame comes in at #18.
Yes, I'm sure Ohio St.'s 5K per game is really valuable to advertisers.
I love hockey, and I love college hockey... but it's a niche sport at best.
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Per Andy Katz....ACC will *not* add a 16th member and is done with expansion.
"Andy KatzþESPNAndyKatz
Agree. RT mcmurphyespn: ACC will not go to 16 teams in hoops, sources tell espn. Notre Dame will be league's last addition."
The timing of this announcement had to be orchestrated with the negotiations with the TV contract. My guess is that the new commissioner (ESPN guy) knew this in advance and wanted to get it out there before a new deal is inked. If the league was going to explode, my sense is that others would have announced today as well. ESPN probably wanted things sorted out before it agreed to a deal. As much as I want a basketball only conference, I dont think its happening.
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Guys, some of this just isn't reality. What on earth would Marquette bring to any of the major conferences?
Big 10: New market? Nope, the Badgers already lead sports coverage in Milwaukee. And even with lacrosse and soccer, they just don't need the sports we have. The Big 10 is made up of massive state schools. People like us, Creighton, and DePaul don't expand their market and certainly don't raise their profile. All we are is a drain off their lucrative deals. If they didn't want ND as non-football, there's less than zero chance they'd want us. And if they did add basketball-only, they'd look to schools like Georgetown and St John's that would widen their footprint.
SEC/PAC-12: A sub-30 market with a small alumni base compared to their massive state schools and as far out of their footprints as we are? No way. Not even worth considering.
ACC: I get the hope, but they'd certainly go after 'Nova and St John's first, which solidify larger markets and could bring MSG. And that's assuming Maryland tries to block Georgetown, a school that would clearly be the most desirable basketball-only. Our ties to ND and having LW would help, but why would any of those schools let ND come in and dictate that they take us?
Big 12: Would we even want to be there in the unlikely event they saw Milwaukee as a worthwhile enough market to go basketball only? Texas runs things and isn't good at sharing. Like the first three conferences, they are all massive state schools. And honestly, while we have a good program, we don't bring a nationwide brand or a major market. If the Big East crumbles, Louisville and Cincy are far more realistic options as they have football, and I think DePaul's market and Creighton rebuilding their Nebraska base would be more likely fits as basketball-only options, as sacrilegious as that may be to say.
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And the Big Ten had an interest in hockey but simply didn't have enough members playing it. Notice that they *could* have added "hockey-only" members for years...but didn't. They waited until a sixth member made a commitment to the sport.
It's a fair point, but they pressed all of the Big10 schools to create a Big10 hockey network. Why? Because they need content... even if it's not a huge amount of money.
My only points are this (and then I'll leave it alone):
#1 Conferences are looking for revenue and content. These have not been primary drivers behind conference affiliations until now. This goes for all conferences.
#2 Football makes the most $, so all of the conferences are raiding each other for top FB programs to build television contracts. Geography doesn't matter. Tradition doesn't matter. Just FB... which is really just $. $.
#3 The Big 10 likes tradition. But, the Big10 also like $. Decisions are increasingly about $, and specifically their television $.
#4 MU is 99% NOT going to be in the Big10. But, I think some of you are focusing on the wrong stuff. If the Big10 thinks it can add significant revenue with some partial members, you bet your ass they will consider it.
#5 Football has been the focus of conferences the past 2-4 years because it makes the most $. You know what makes the second most $? I assure they do, and when the dust settles on football, they are going to go after the next revenue stream.
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Guys, some of this just isn't reality. What on earth would Marquette bring to any of the major conferences?
Big 10: New market? Nope, the Badgers already lead sports coverage in Milwaukee. And even with lacrosse and soccer, they just don't need the sports we have. The Big 10 is made up of massive state schools. People like us, Creighton, and DePaul don't expand their market and certainly don't raise their profile. All we are is a drain off their lucrative deals. If they didn't want ND as non-football, there's less than zero chance they'd want us. And if they did add basketball-only, they'd look to schools like Georgetown and St John's that would widen their footprint.
SEC/PAC-12: A sub-30 market with a small alumni base compared to their massive state schools and as far out of their footprints as we are? No way. Not even worth considering.
ACC: I get the hope, but they'd certainly go after 'Nova and St John's first, which solidify larger markets and could bring MSG. And that's assuming Maryland tries to block Georgetown, a school that would clearly be the most desirable basketball-only. Our ties to ND and having LW would help, but why would any of those schools let ND come in and dictate that they take us?
Big 12: Would we even want to be there in the unlikely event they saw Milwaukee as a worthwhile enough market to go basketball only? Texas runs things and isn't good at sharing. Like the first three conferences, they are all massive state schools. And honestly, while we have a good program, we don't bring a nationwide brand or a major market. If the Big East crumbles, Louisville and Cincy are far more realistic options as they have football, and I think DePaul's market and Creighton rebuilding their Nebraska base would be more likely fits as basketball-only options, as sacrilegious as that may be to say.
I don't think any conference is going to want MU for the market, or for the reputation. MU's financials and long term projections will have to look good, and that could make it attractive as an add-on for a conference.
Conferences aren't going to magically stop searching for money. If partial members add revenue, they will be considered.
The question for MU... do they add enough revenue to be worth addition to X conference?
I don't know the answer... and I fear that it might be "no".
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I'd say there is a better chance of MU landing Jabari Parker than MU going to the Big 10.
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Assuming that all of the major conferences are done with their expansion, then it might be somewhat realistic to think that the schools of the Big East, A-10 and Conference USA could join together to form one conference, split among divisions for basketball and football. Simply guessing, it might look something like this;
Basketball-only Football & Basketball
1. Marquette 1) USF
2. DePaul 2) Louisville
3. St. John's 3) Cincy
4. Georgetown 4) UConn
5. Villanova 5) Rutgers
6. Seton Hall 6) Temple
7. Providence 7) UMass
8. Butler (or SLU) 8) Memphis
9. Xavier 9) Houston
10. Dayton 10) E. Carolina
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1) The brand of ND isn't helping the basketball-only schools at this point any way.
2) Compared to having already lost Cuse, Pitt and WVU, the marginal loss of ND is minimal. The brand has a floor, and that floor was already approached before ND made it's decision.
3) ND solidifies the Chicago market for a conference network/contract, but with DePaul (and to a lesser extent, MU), you still have Chicago. You probably lose South Bend, but that's not a big deal. ND isn't going to win you a market in Texas, but SMU & Houston do. Same with western Tennessee... Memphis grabs that market, ND does not.
Look at this way... you've got 16 girls in a bar: 4 are smokin' hot, 10 are moderately attractive, and 2 are just plain ugly. Two of your smokin' girls (Pitt and Cuse) and 1 attractive girl (WVU) just left, but in walked five more girls (3 moderately attractive and 2 ugly) shortly after. If another smokin' girl (ND) leaves, does it really make a difference at that point (especially given that you didn't have a chance with her to begin with)?
And by the way, one of those girls that did walk in... she may be ugly, but she and two of her friends she came in with have a boatload of cash. A little cosmetic surgery, some new attractive friends, and all of the sudden, things aren't as bad as you thought they were going to be.
But if they have herpes, who cares? That crape isn't going away! This sucks. Perception is reality. ND is about a big of a brand name as you can get. Love em or hate em, it's true.
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Here is how I see it. Thoughts
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The big losers are Uconn and Rutgers. B10 and ACC are "full." They are both football schools with hopes of being a major BCS powers. That is not going to happen in the BEast and today's move leaves them with no apparent home.
Cincy/Lousiville/USF next biggest losers. Same problem as above but they might still be able to join the "Misfit BCS football conference" otherwise known as the B12. Most likely they are not all going to the B12 so one or more of them are going to move into the Uconn/Rutgers camp of being totally shafted.
Who is OK for now are the non-football schools of the BEast. They still have a decent conference for the next few years and have the realistic option of forming a decent basketball only conference after that. Of course this has to happen.
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You guys are in flippin' la-la land...
The Big Ten has no desire to do this. None. This is a conference that went to 11 members, and then sat on adding a 12th member for almost 20 years. This is a conference that had ND on its backdoor and probably could have made this deal with them at anytime during this stretch. But they didn't.
Why would they mess around with partial members? To get a game or two more per week on the BTN???
One thing people forget about is that the Big Ten has very, very high standards for admitting schools. Every memeber is a part of a "top 100 schools" in the country organization and they want to keep that in tact moving forward. Rutgers is not on that list and it's why they weren't looking to add them in over Missouri (who is on the list). Mizzou is now out of the question.
My point is that, unless the Big Ten comes to the realization that they need to relax these policies, it may be stuck in limbo for a while and by the time they decide to make a change, it'll be too late. The same thing is happening now in the Big East. They are on the cusp of losing control of their own destiny. Some would say it's already lost.
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Assuming that all of the major conferences are done with their expansion, then it might be somewhat realistic to think that the schools of the Big East, A-10 and Conference USA could join together to form one conference, split among divisions for basketball and football. Simply guessing, it might look something like this;
Basketball-only Football & Basketball
1. Marquette 1) USF
2. DePaul 2) Louisville
3. St. John's 3) Cincy
4. Georgetown 4) UConn
5. Villanova 5) Rutgers
6. Seton Hall 6) Temple
7. Providence 7) UMass
8. Butler (or SLU) 8) Memphis
9. Xavier 9) Houston
10. Dayton 10) E. Carolina
The Big Tens!
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One thing people forget about is that the Big Ten has very, very high standards for admitting schools. Every memeber is a part of a "top 100 schools" in the country organization and they want to keep that in tact moving forward. Rutgers is not on that list and it's why they weren't looking to add them in over Missouri (who is on the list). Mizzou is now out of the question.
My point is that, unless the Big Ten comes to the realization that they need to relax these policies, it may be stuck in limbo for a while and by the time they decide to make a change, it'll be too late. The same thing is happening now in the Big East. They are on the cusp of losing control of their own destiny. Some would say it's already lost.
This B10 talk is a non-starter. No way they're expanding. They've finally got their 2 divisions, champ. game, network. They're completely and utterly in control of their destiny, and the furthest from limbo (The Empyrean?) possible.
They're as fat and happy as can be (even with the PennSt. s***show, and the fact that the quality of football isn't great). NO WAY they're messing with that.
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How many $$ did ND football bring to the BE TV deal? None. The big loss is presitige, local and national interest and a possible NBC lead-in for a potential BE football Saturday.
MU may have to park some of their Olympics sports like lacrosse in either the B1G or the ACC. Not ideal but this ends a one-sided business partnership.
Buehler? Buehler...why isn't Larry Williams out there in public talking to alums, his press pal Walker like he was for T-Shirtgate? Silence is golden (domer). I guess he will have his chance Friday at the B&G Auction. Should be interesting.
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How many $$ did ND football bring to the BE TV deal? None. The big loss is presitige, local and national interest and a possible NBC lead-in for a potential BE football Saturday.
MU may have to park some of their Olympics sports like lacrosse in either the B1G or the ACC. Not ideal but this ends a one-sided business partnership.
Buehler? Buehler...why isn't Larry Williams out there in public talking to alums, his press pal Walker like he was for T-Shirtgate? Silence is golden (domer). I guess he will have his chance Friday at the B&G Auction. Should be interesting.
ND was the "Chicago team" for the BE. So unless DePaul can get its act together, the BE lost a representative from a big TV market.
For the betterment of the BE, should we tell Steve Taylor to transfer and pass of Kendrick Nunn?
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How many $$ did ND football bring to the BE TV deal? None. The big loss is presitige, local and national interest and a possible NBC lead-in for a potential BE football Saturday.
MU may have to park some of their Olympics sports like lacrosse in either the B1G or the ACC. Not ideal but this ends a one-sided business partnership.
Buehler? Buehler...why isn't Larry Williams out there in public talking to alums, his press pal Walker like he was for T-Shirtgate? Silence is golden (domer). I guess he will have his chance Friday at the B&G Auction. Should be interesting.
No way will the Big 10 or ACC take MU's olympic sports teams. MU will be lucky to end up in the A-10 when this all shakes out.
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Guys, the strategy is fairly simple. Stay tight with Georgetown, Villanova and St. John's. Hope that however this shakes out, we are in a package with them.
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ND was the "Chicago team" for the BE. So unless DePaul can get its act together, the BE lost a representative from a big TV market.
For the betterment of the BE, should we tell Steve Taylor to transfer and pass of Kendrick Nunn?
As I said, "local/national"...however, each BE basketball team earned $2mm per year. So, ND got MU an extra 100k? ND Olympic presitige sports earned us $0, but saved us travel costs....which is why the B1G or ACC could <potentially> take on a MU in a spot sport where there are not enough teams. MU would get nothing from them or them from us, other than reduced travel costs.
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No way will the Big 10 or ACC take MU's olympic sports teams. MU will be lucky to end up in the A-10 when this all shakes out.
How does this work, by the way? MU is clearly a higher caliber team than many of the A-10 bottom-feeders. I'm sure they would be more than happy to kick a Charlotte or Richmond out of the conference for a university with history, facilities, money, etc like Marquette, DePaul, or Nova. I guess my question is, the Big East kicked Temple out once, could the A-10 do it to their lesser teams and gain something better?
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How does this work, by the way? MU is clearly a higher caliber team than many of the A-10 bottom-feeders. I'm sure they would be more than happy to kick a Charlotte or Richmond out of the conference for a university with history, facilities, money, etc like Marquette, DePaul, or Nova. I guess my question is, the Big East kicked Temple out once, could the A-10 do it to their lesser teams and gain something better?
Or would the top A-10 teams and bball-only BE teams form their own league?
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How does this work, by the way? MU is clearly a higher caliber team than many of the A-10 bottom-feeders. I'm sure they would be more than happy to kick a Charlotte or Richmond out of the conference for a university with history, facilities, money, etc like Marquette, DePaul, or Nova. I guess my question is, the Big East kicked Temple out once, could the A-10 do it to their lesser teams and gain something better?
Well, they aren't going to do this, but I am sure the procedure for expelling a member is clearly defined in their bylaws.
And Charlotte is adding football and moving to Conference USA.
Or would the top A-10 teams and bball-only BE teams form their own league?
That would be the more viable option.
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Guys, the strategy is fairly simple. Stay tight with Georgetown, Villanova and St. John's. Hope that however this shakes out, we are in a package with them.
Package? There is no loyalty and no alliances. Georgetown and Villanova are probably begging the ACC to let them in. I'm sure St Johns is eyeing the A-10. MU is now an island.
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Or would the top A-10 teams and bball-only BE teams form their own league?
This is the best possible outcome, as a non-football conference, under the present circumstances.
Marquette
Villanova
St. John's
Georgetown
Seton Hall
Providence
DePaul
Butler
Dayton
Xavier
St. Louis
VCU
Maybe two more from among St. Bonnies, St. Joe's, Richmond, UMass and GW. That is if G'Town is willing to share a conference with GW, and Nova with St. Joe's.
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Okay, Larry, you finally convinced me. The ACC would be nice. Let's do things the ND way!
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Package? There is no loyalty and no alliances. Georgetown and Villanova are probably begging the ACC to let them in. I'm sure St Johns is eyeing the A-10. MU is now an island.
I wasn't saying that. My point is that those schools most closely match up with us in terms of their situation and what they have to offer, i.e., urban private schools with relatively successful basketball programs but no D-1 football. Even then we may be a bit of an outlier since we are in a smaller market in a different geographic region. But if we stay with them (and presumably the other basketball only BE schools) I think we'll be fine.
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This is the best possible outcome, as a non-football conference, under the present circumstances.
Marquette
Villanova
St. John's
Georgetown
Seton Hall
Providence
DePaul
Butler
Dayton
Xavier
St. Louis
VCU
Maybe two more from among St. Bonnies, St. Joe's, Richmond, UMass and GW. That is if G'Town is willing to share a conference with GW, and Nova with St. Joe's.
This is why it's in MU's best interest to keep the Big East together. MU is much better off included with Louisville, Memphis, UConn, Rutgers and Cincinnati.
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This is why it's in MU's best interest to keep the Big East together. MU is much better off included with Louisville, Memphis, UConn, Rutgers and Cincinnati.
Except those schools:
a) Will perpetually be on the lookout for a better situation, leading to constant instability and a real chance of MU completing losing in the game of musical conferences (Hello, CUSA or Horizon League!). Louisville and UConn absolutely will jump at the first opportunity to bail on the Big East, and they've got the best chance of landing a better offer. Then what?
b) Have little reason to want basketball-only schools around, or give them much of a voice in conference operations.
At this point, not trying to create some kind of hoops only league with the best of the BE and A-10 hoops only programs seems to be only delaying the inevitable and, possibly, risking a much worse fate.
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The timing of this announcement had to be orchestrated with the negotiations with the TV contract. My guess is that the new commissioner (ESPN guy) knew this in advance and wanted to get it out there before a new deal is inked. If the league was going to explode, my sense is that others would have announced today as well. ESPN probably wanted things sorted out before it agreed to a deal. As much as I want a basketball only conference, I dont think its happening.
The new commissioner has nothing to do with ESPN. He was an exec at CBS. Newsflash, the league has been exploding.
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They wanted no part of Buzz doing an improvised touchdown Jesus dance on center court in the leprechaun's face after a come from behind victory with all 5 starters suspended cuz Larry Williams caught them eating off-brand Wheaties.
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One thing people forget about is that the Big Ten has very, very high standards for admitting schools. Every memeber is a part of a "top 100 schools" in the country organization and they want to keep that in tact moving forward. Rutgers is not on that list and it's why they weren't looking to add them in over Missouri (who is on the list). Mizzou is now out of the question.
My point is that, unless the Big Ten comes to the realization that they need to relax these policies, it may be stuck in limbo for a while and by the time they decide to make a change, it'll be too late. The same thing is happening now in the Big East. They are on the cusp of losing control of their own destiny. Some would say it's already lost.
I think all the schools mentioned above would have been added to the Big Ten had it made sense to them. They added Nebraska, which clearly suggests they aren't as strict on academics as people thought.
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This sucks, but I don't think it changes MU position from a bargaining strategy standpoint at all. MU is still best off in a holding pattern. Even the most optimistic cite "stability" as the best thing to come from ND leaving. Stability is the cheapest and potentially most easily acquired asset in this whole shakeup. Always has been. At any point, the BBall only schools could have made the BBall only conference with the A10. Could have yesterday, could tomorrow - and that would be the most "stable." But its not the most profitable or best for the school. Instead, MU is better off letting this shakeout to see if a) this starts a trend of each big conference taking a couple BBall only schools or b) the remaining BEast powers get plucked. Nothing MU does will prevent other BEast schools from jumping to the bigger, better conferences, and nothing short of those conferences coming calling will prevent MU from joining up into a BBall only conference in the future. So we sit tight.
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One thing people forget about is that the Big Ten has very, very high standards for admitting schools. Every memeber is a part of a "top 100 schools" in the country organization and they want to keep that in tact moving forward. Rutgers is not on that list and it's why they weren't looking to add them in over Missouri (who is on the list). Mizzou is now out of the question.
My point is that, unless the Big Ten comes to the realization that they need to relax these policies, it may be stuck in limbo for a while and by the time they decide to make a change, it'll be too late. The same thing is happening now in the Big East. They are on the cusp of losing control of their own destiny. Some would say it's already lost.
Rutgers has been a member of the Association of American Universities since 1989, and were looked at quite closely by the Big Ten the last go round. Nebraska football, however, was a national brand that provided real added value to the Big Ten's football contract as well as being a team whose fans travel VERY well and that trumped AAU membership this time around.
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Thanks Lil' Murs. That's it!
And yes, Nebraska is one of the top 10 brand-names in college football, along with Michigan and Ohio Shat. That was a no-brainer and a better move than picking up Mizzou.
I guess, geographically, I'm hoping (unrealistically) the B10 adds a couple non-football teams to the league in the general geographic area. Logistically, MU wouldn't add much to travel in the league and would really add a lot of juice to Wisconsin vs. MU. And if you don't think two B10 schools that close can't work, look at Ann Arbor and East Lansing. It can work.
MU's hoops tradition would help the B10, I think. But...I think that's mostly wishful thinking on my part.
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Please stop saying that Academics has anything to do with this, you just hurt your own credibility on this subject.
The ONLY, and repeat ONLY, thing driving this is TV markets and football brand. The purpose of these conferences is to put together a large enough group of schools that will demand the highest dollar amount from a TV contract.
Trust me, if a state prison football team made the conference more marketable to ESPN, they would become a member of that conference in a heartbeat.
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Please stop saying that Academics has anything to do with this, you just hurt your own credibility on this subject.
I disagree. I'm not going to say it's the primary factor by any means, but the Big Ten wouldn't add Memphis even if their football program moved into the top-10. Nebraska probably wouldn't be invited to the Big Ten today since they have been expelled from the AAU due to not having a medical campus and not having certain programs recognized. I think it's less of a concern for the ACC and Pac-12, but both will at least look at academics. I'm not sure the SEC or Big 12 care at all.
Academics aren't the first factor anyone is looking at, but for some conferences, it is a factor that will come up in the discussion.
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MU would add nothing to the Big Ten. No new market, no football, small fan base, etc. Not going to happen.
Thanks Lil' Murs. That's it!
And yes, Nebraska is one of the top 10 brand-names in college football, along with Michigan and Ohio Shat. That was a no-brainer and a better move than picking up Mizzou.
I guess, geographically, I'm hoping (unrealistically) the B10 adds a couple non-football teams to the league in the general geographic area. Logistically, MU wouldn't add much to travel in the league and would really add a lot of juice to Wisconsin vs. MU. And if you don't think two B10 schools that close can't work, look at Ann Arbor and East Lansing. It can work.
MU's hoops tradition would help the B10, I think. But...I think that's mostly wishful thinking on my part.
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Please stop saying that Academics has anything to do with this, you just hurt your own credibility on this subject.
The ONLY, and repeat ONLY, thing driving this is TV markets and football brand. The purpose of these conferences is to put together a large enough group of schools that will demand the highest dollar amount from a TV contract.
Trust me, if a state prison football team made the conference more marketable to ESPN, they would become a member of that conference in a heartbeat.
I'm w/what Brew City said, although more clearly than me. Surely I'm not naive enough to think the almighty dollar is a huge factor in this. I am saying, however, that academics do play a role, especially in the Big Ten. If they didn't, the make-up would be way different than what it currently is.
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I'm w/what Brew City said, although more clearly than me. Surely I'm not naive enough to think the almighty dollar is a huge factor in this. I am saying, however, that academics do play a role, especially in the Big Ten. If they didn't, the make-up would be way different than what it currently is.
So we think Iowa, Nebraska, Illinois, Oho State and Michigan State are good academic institutions? UWM is a better academic institution.
The B10 has only one elite academic institution - Northwestern. Michigan is close and the rest are average.
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I think all the schools mentioned above would have been added to the Big Ten had it made sense to them. They added Nebraska, which clearly suggests they aren't as strict on academics as people thought.
Strict on academics? Ron Dayne played four years in that conference.
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So we think Iowa, Nebraska, Illinois, Oho State and Michigan State are good academic institutions? UWM is a better academic institution.
The B10 has only one elite academic institution - Northwestern. Michigan is close and the rest are average.
Average? You're kidding, right?
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Average? You're kidding, right?
I assume you mean that I'm giving them too much credit.
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No teal, no credibility.
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So we think Iowa, Nebraska, Illinois, Oho State and Michigan State are good academic institutions? UWM is a better academic institution.
The B10 has only one elite academic institution - Northwestern. Michigan is close and the rest are average.
This statement is pretty dumb.
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Thanks Lil' Murs. That's it!
And yes, Nebraska is one of the top 10 brand-names in college football, along with Michigan and Ohio Shat. That was a no-brainer and a better move than picking up Mizzou.
I guess, geographically, I'm hoping (unrealistically) the B10 adds a couple non-football teams to the league in the general geographic area. Logistically, MU wouldn't add much to travel in the league and would really add a lot of juice to Wisconsin vs. MU. And if you don't think two B10 schools that close can't work, look at Ann Arbor and East Lansing. It can work.
MU's hoops tradition would help the B10, I think. But...I think that's mostly wishful thinking on my part.
Yeah, you should really stop thinking wishfully like that. Nothing but disappointment awaits.
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http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities
List came out yesterday and yes this list is viewed as an important aspect for all universities every year.
Northwestern #12
Michigan #29
Wisconsin #41
Illinois #46
OSU #56
Purdue #65
Minnesota #68
MSU #72
Iowa #72 (tie)
Indiana #83
Marquette #83 (tie)
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The education quality of large state universities is the most over-rated thing this country has. That is why I never went to one and I'm not encouraging any of my kids to consider one.
Nothing screams "mediocre" more than a University of 40,000+.
If it makes you feel better that you tax dollars are not wasted on these glorified warehouses of humanity, go right ahead and flame me.
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The education quality of large state universities is the most over-rated thing this country has. That is why I never went to one.
"I never experienced this, but I know I'm right."
If it makes you feel better that you tax dollars are not wasted on these glorified warehouses of humanity, go right ahead and flame me.
7% of UW-Madison's budget comes from state taxes...7%. UW-Madison educates 40,000 students, mostly undergraduate Wisconsin residents. I can't imagine another part of state government that has that type of return on investment.
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So we think Iowa, Nebraska, Illinois, Oho State and Michigan State are good academic institutions? UWM is a better academic institution.
The B10 has only one elite academic institution - Northwestern. Michigan is close and the rest are average.
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities
List came out yesterday and yes this list is viewed as an important aspect for all universities every year.
Northwestern #12
Michigan #29
Wisconsin #41
Illinois #46
OSU #56
Purdue #65
Minnesota #68
MSU #72
Iowa #72 (tie)
Indiana #83
Marquette #83 (tie)
The only inaccuracy about Another84's comment is that UWM is a better academic institution. Otherwise, his statement is pretty much spot on.
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Since the is no way Marquette can get into the ACC I think the A-10 is a pretty good option.
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The education quality of large state universities is the most over-rated thing this country has. That is why I never went to one and I'm not encouraging any of my kids to consider one.
Nothing screams "mediocre" more than a University of 40,000+.
If it makes you feel better that you tax dollars are not wasted on these glorified warehouses of humanity, go right ahead and flame me.
Thats just like, your opinion, man.
But really, those are all great schools, and have improved a lot even in the last two decades. They don't let every Tom, Dick, and Harry in.
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7% of UW-Madison's budget comes from state taxes...7%. UW-Madison educates 40,000 students, mostly undergraduate Wisconsin residents. I can't imagine another part of state government that has that type of return on investment.
Curious, but what's your source on this?
Because, according to the university, it's more like 17 percent.
http://www.ls.wisc.edu/giving.html
Also, that's direct support. I'd imagine the state provides millions more to the university system indirectly (financial aid, research funding, etc.).
Not that public higher education is a poor use of resources - though it suffers many of the same inefficiencies as any other public program - but I think you're playing down the amount of taxpayer support that's involved.
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The only inaccuracy about Another84's comment is that UWM is a better academic institution. Otherwise, his statement is pretty much spot on.
No, "average" would put them in the top 500, not the top 100. They are considerably and clearly very good academic institutions.
This is a stupid tangent anyway, can we get back to discussing Marquette to the SEC?
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Curious, but what's your source on this?
Because, according to the university, it's more like 17 percent.
http://www.ls.wisc.edu/giving.html
Also, that's direct support. I'd imagine the state provides millions more to the university system indirectly (financial aid, research funding, etc.).
Not that public higher education is a poor use of resources - though it suffers many of the same inefficiencies as any other public program - but I think you're playing down the amount of taxpayer support that's involved.
http://www.uwalumni.com/?sectionpath=1&pageid=20143
You are quoting figures from one college. Not the university as a whole.
I doubt the state provides millions for research funding, but they do for financial aid. But still, I don't think you realize how little state budget support goes to public universities. Even at the places like Whitewater and LaCrosse, it is less than 20% now. This has been accelerated greatly over the past decade...and not just in Wisconsin.
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http://www.uwalumni.com/?sectionpath=1&pageid=20143
You are quoting figures from one college. Not the university as a whole.
No, I'm not. Read the link.
"Private support from alumni and friends now makes up about 18 percent of the UW-Madison budget with state support providing close to 17 percent."
Note, it does not say "for one college."
I doubt the state provides millions for research funding, but they do for financial aid.
According to this National Science Foundation study, UW-Madison received $97 million from "state and local government" for research. I'm going to go out on a limb and say most of that is coming from the state, not Tomah and Peshtigo. and even if it were - and it's not - it's still taxpayer money.
http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf12313/
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The education quality of large state universities is the most over-rated thing this country has. That is why I never went to one and I'm not encouraging any of my kids to consider one.
Nothing screams "mediocre" more than a University of 40,000+.
If it makes you feel better that you tax dollars are not wasted on these glorified warehouses of humanity, go right ahead and flame me.
What evidence do you have to back up such a broad statement? Seems silly.
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"I never experienced this, but I know I'm right."
7% of UW-Madison's budget comes from state taxes...7%. UW-Madison educates 40,000 students, mostly undergraduate Wisconsin residents. I can't imagine another part of state government that has that type of return on investment.
Is there a return on the investment? That is hard to quantify. You would have to show that there would be fewer college educated residents without the State of Wisconsin kicking in 7%. I suspect most of UW's students would still of gone to UW without the 7% State subsidy.
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No, I'm not. Read the link.
"Private support from alumni and friends now makes up about 18 percent of the UW-Madison budget with state support providing close to 17 percent."
Note, it does not say "for one college."
Well then you have two different sources from the same organization saying different things. Need to see what they use as a basis for comparison.
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No, "average" would put them in the top 500, not the top 100. They are considerably and clearly very good academic institutions.
This is a stupid tangent anyway, can we get back to discussing Marquette to the SEC?
I think the discussion was MU to the Big 10, but perhaps a discussion about the difference between "median" and "average" would be more entertaining.
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Thats just like, your opinion, man.
But really, those are all great schools, and have improved a lot even in the last two decades. They don't let every Tom, Dick, and Harry in.
If every state has at least one state university of 40,000 (and some have several) that works out to over a million kids at large state universities, which the residents of that state think is among the best in the country. So absolutely every Tom Dick and Harry is getting in. State Universities are designed specifically to let every Tom Dick and Harry ... its their purpose for existing!!
Why do you think after you get in they have standards for applying to colleges after a year or two? Such as after two years you have to apply to the business school? Because the standards allow every Tom, Dick and Harry to get into the school and somewhere they have to weed them out.
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What evidence do you have to back up such a broad statement? Seems silly.
It's my opinion, never been impressed by anyone from large state universities. Everyone I've ever hired are from small private colleges.
And I'll go one step further, large suburban high schools suffer from the same problem. 5% get a decent education and the rest are pushed along and get a crappy education, just like large state universities.
Never send you kids to a public high school larger than 500, they are also nothing but warehouses of humanity. Exception will be made for private or catholic schools above 500.
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If every state has at least one state university of 40,000 (and some have several) that works out to over a million kids at large state universities, which the residents of that state think is among the best in the country. So absolutely every Tom Dick and Harry is getting in. State Universities are designed specifically to let every Tom Dick and Harry ... its their purpose for existing!!
UW Madison's admission standards are roughly equal to Marquette's....if not slightly higher.
http://www.admissions.wisc.edu/freshman/requirements.php
http://www.marquette.edu/explore/admissionprofile.shtml
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If every state has at least one state university of 40,000 (and some have several) that works out to over a million kids at large state universities, which the residents of that state think is among the best in the country. So absolutely every Tom Dick and Harry is getting in. State Universities are designed specifically to let every Tom Dick and Harry ... its their purpose for existing!!
Why do you think after you get in they have standards for applying to colleges after a year or two? Such as after two years you have to apply to the business school? Because the standards allow every Tom, Dick and Harry to get into the school and somewhere they have to weed them out.
You must be old.
I graduated HS with a very good GPA and a very good ACT score and was in countless 'groups' and I got wait-listed for UW.
Furthermore, you probably hire a lot of private school kids because you are a private school graduate. I wonder who you would hire if you didn't get to peek at which school they graduated from.
Additionally, get your head out of the sand.
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It's my opinion, never been impressed by anyone from large state universities. Everyone I've ever hired are from small private colleges.
And I'll go one step further, large suburban high schools suffer from the same problem. 5% get a decent education and the rest are pushed along and get a crappy education, just like large state universities.
Never send you kids to a public high school larger than 500, they are also nothing but warehouses of humanity. Exception will be made for private or catholic schools above 500.
I don't do this often to another poster....but your post is idiotic. My kids had/are having a great time academically and also with athletics at a school that is 4x over your stated threshold for a quality education.