50 most successful college bk programs in the last 50 years.
Someone do the math and figure out where MU is at. I'm feeling lazy. ;)
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation
Here's a little taste: Weber State comes in at #39. Florida is #40.
If I had to guess, I'd say we land somewhere in the 15-20 area.
A National Championship, a few final fours, a few conference titles, only 6 losing seasons in 50 years, a few All-Americans, recent success, no forfeited or vacated wins.
Since it goes back to 1962, UCLA has to be in the top spot. Duke, North Carolina, Kentucky, Kansas, Indiana all likely follow in some order.
Ohio State, Michigan State, Arizona, Georgetown, Syracuse probably in the next level.
Maybe schools like UNLV, Villanova, Michigan, Illinois, Oklahoma, Purdue, UConn, Memphis, Cincy ahead of us. I'm sure I'm forgetting a few obvious ones.
At number 45....... DePaul (ranked as the 10th best team of the '80s) hasn't gained points in any season since 2005, just two NCAA tournament appearances in the past 20 seasons.
Without counting the bonus points for the independent years where MU finished higher than two other major conference teams, I'm coming up with 296 points. The 70's account for roughly half of those points, however.
My guess is that MU is hovering right around #11 overall.
I like that they're doing the starting line up from the past 50 years. What would be your guys' starting 5? Mine is
PG- Butch Lee
SG- D Wade
SF- Bo Ellis
PF- Jim Chones
C- Mo Lucas
If we're going to be sticklers on position I would have Doc Rivers at the 3, and Bo at the 4.
Looking at
number of weeks ranked (AP) in the last 50 years...MU is:
- 14th in the Top 25
- 12th in the Top 10
- 15th in the Top 5
# of Seasons ranked by school -- MU falls out as:
- 20th in the Top 25
- 17th in the Top 10
- 25th in the Top 5
http://statsheet.com/mcb/rankings/report_most_in_the_top/1962-1963
Quote from: cbowe3 on August 21, 2012, 03:43:56 PM
I like that they're doing the starting line up from the past 50 years. What would be your guys' starting 5? Mine is
PG- Butch Lee
SG- D Wade
SF- Bo Ellis
PF- Jim Chones
C- Mo Lucas
If we're going to be sticklers on position I would have Doc Rivers at the 3, and Bo at the 4.
I think you would need to have Earl Tatum ahead of Doc Rivers wouldn't you?
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on August 21, 2012, 04:23:07 PM
I think you would need to have Earl Tatum ahead of Doc Rivers wouldn't you?
I'm with you Sultan, and probably George Thompson and Dean Meminger ahead of DWade and Butch.
Quote from: augoman on August 21, 2012, 04:42:12 PM
I'm with you Sultan, and probably George Thompson and Dean Meminger ahead of DWade and Butch.
I like Thompson and Meminger, but not ahead of DWade.
certainly not the Wade of today, but I would the Wade of MU days.
Yeah I would for sure have Meminger on that list instead of Lee, but when I originally created it I was thinking of guys from 1972 and on (40 years rather than 50). My bad, mental error
Quote from: augoman on August 21, 2012, 04:48:04 PM
certainly not the Wade of today, but I would the Wade of MU days.
No. Wade will go down as the greatest Marquette player of all-time. He already is. You can try to nitpick all you want because of how long he played for us. You can try, but no one is leaving him off the list of the top 5.
Calling Pudner (Bama)...if he wasn't so damn busy electing Presidents...from his book it is Bo, George, DW3, Butch and Dean. I don't know where Jae would fit in statistically but I assume high.
Chones would be up there but he left early let's face it. My list from pure talent and impact is Bo, DW3, George, Mo and Dean. Bo was a four year starter with two F2's and a NC. George carried Al into his glory years. Mo may have been the best physical talent ever at MU. It is heresy, but Butch was not all that gifted naturally but he could use his body so well. Dean was the Baryshnikov. No one had seen that quickness before. I am very tempted to put Jae on the list over Butch.
Nah, Butch was far better. FF MVP, Olympian, 1st round pick, DeWitt Clinton, etc. Remember seein' Butch run in a sweatsuit during hot, humid summer days up and down the street from the Old Gym on 16th to the Ave., sweatin' like a pig.
Don't really care about all of this. I just hope someone can help me find where I can get my hands on some cheap Louis Vuitton bags.
Quote from: morecowbell on August 22, 2012, 06:42:01 AM
Don't really care about all of this. I just hope someone can help me find where I can get my hands on some cheap Louis Vuitton bags.
+1,000,000!!!
Just awesome.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 22, 2012, 04:40:48 AM
Nah, Butch was far better. FF MVP, Olympian, 1st round pick, DeWitt Clinton, etc. Remember seein' Butch run in a sweatsuit during hot, humid summer days up and down the street from the Old Gym on 16th to the Ave., sweatin' like a pig.
DWade was on a FF team, an Olympian (who actually won a medal), a first round pick, and he has been a far better player in the NBA than Lee was.
But I would not have Meminger ahead of Lee.
Dean Meminger was (by far) MU's best point guard of all time. Butch played the 2. My all time MU team:
PG - Meminger
SG - Wade
SF - Thompson
PF - Lucas
C - Chones
Bench : Bo, Butch, Tatum, T Miller and Whitehead.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on August 22, 2012, 07:55:56 AM
DWade was on a FF team, an Olympian (who actually won a medal), a first round pick, and he has been a far better player in the NBA than Lee was.
Dwade actually has two Olympic medals, bronze in '04 and gold in '08.
And, he is not just a far better NBA player than Lee... Honestly, there's no comparison between the two:
Wade is an 8-time All-Star, (2) NBA first-teams, (3) NBA second-teams, (2) NBA third-teams, an NBA scoring champion (2009), Finals MVP and 2-time NBA champion.
He is one of the NBA's best 50 players of all-time.
How does Murray State rank ahead of ND, Oklahoma, Gonzaga, Xavier, Houston? What shitty point system are they using?
Quote from: Aughnanure on August 22, 2012, 12:43:42 PM
How does Murray State rank ahead of ND, Oklahoma, Gonzaga, Xavier, Houston? What crapty point system are they using?
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/62654/introducing-the-50-in-50-series
Quote from: Aughnanure on August 22, 2012, 12:43:42 PM
How does Murray State rank ahead of ND, Oklahoma, Gonzaga, Xavier, Houston? What crapty point system are they using?
The scale gives a lot of weight to conference performance.
5 points for a conference title
3 points for a conference tournament title
Over the past 50 years:
Murray State has 22 conference titles and 14 conference tournament titles.
Comparing:
Xavier has 17 conference titles and 10 tournament championships.
Gonzaga has 15 conference titles and 11 tournament championships
Oklahoma has 7 conference titles and 7 championships
Houston has 3 conference titles and 6 tournament championships
Notre Dame has no conference titles, and 1 tournament championship
BTW, MU has just 1 of each.
But MU also has only a handful of losing seasons in the last 50 years, and a bunch of .800 or better seasons.
And MU will get the +5 & +3 credit for each of the years it finished ahead in the polls of two other major conference champions & conference tournament champions as an independent. The 70s alone might be good enough for the equivalent of 8 "conference championships" and "conference tournament" titles in the point system.
Quote from: Benny B on August 21, 2012, 12:29:04 PM
Without counting the bonus points for the independent years where MU finished higher than two other major conference teams, I'm coming up with 296 points. The 70's account for roughly half of those points, however.
My guess is that MU is hovering right around #11 overall.
I'm coming up with 291, including the bonuses (which apply only for '71 and '76). MU considers Wade, Meminger and Lee as our consensus 1st team AAs. Not sure what constitutes 2nd team consensus--i included anyone that was 2nd team on at least one of the major lists, and excluded Helms Foundation and anyone who was only honorable mention.
Points
15 Conference title - 5 points (3 1 for CUSA, plus 71 & 76)
9 Conference tournament title - 3 points (3--one for the GMC, plus 71 & 76)
Win percentage 80%+ 4 points, 60-79% 2 points, 35-49 -2 points, >35% -4 points
40 80+ WP (10 seasons)
50 60-79 WP (25 seasons)
-8 35-50 WP (4 seasons)
-8 <35 WP (2 seasons)
0 No. 1 seed - 2 points
27 NCAA tournament berth - 1 point
0 NCAA 1st-rd. win as 12-16-seed - 1 point
12 Losing in second round - 3 points
40 Sweet 16 loss - 5 pts
20 Elite Eight loss - 10 pts
15 National semifinal loss - 15 points
20 Title game loss - 20 points
25 National title - 25 points
1 NIT title - 1 point
9 First-team All-American - 3 points (Meminger, Lee, Wade)
20 Second-team All-American - 2 points (Not sure what is considered Consensus)
4 Player taken in NBA's top 10 - 2 points (4 points)
291 TOTAL
Given that Princeton (#22) has 289 points, we should know soon enough--I may have missed a few, but I'm not sure we have enough to climb into the top 15.
With all due respect, if anyone thinks Wade is not the best player in school history, They are not watching the sport. Van gundy and mark Jackson named him as the third best two-guard of all time behind Jordan and Kobe.
Note: crowder would have to come off the bench. His stats and accolades are amazing.
too lazy to look it up, where was Wisconsin ranked?
Good topic for the future:
Pre-Al Top 5 Vs Post-Al Top 5
Quote from: downtown85 on August 22, 2012, 04:45:08 PM
too lazy to look it up, where was Wisconsin ranked?
Bwah-hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!
Quote from: The Equalizer on August 22, 2012, 02:12:24 PM
Given that Princeton (#22) has 289 points, we should know soon enough--I may have missed a few, but I'm not sure we have enough to climb into the top 15.
The fun fact for Princeton was that they have as many top 10 draftees as MU since '65 (two!). Clearly we were doing more with less in the late 60's early 70's...though there were some great players on those teams.
Quote from: ODMU238 on August 22, 2012, 05:37:12 PMClearly we were doing more with less in the late 60's early 70's...though there were some great players on those teams.
Not necessarily the case. Top-10 NBA draft picks is a really, really dumb metric. Chones would have been top-10 had he been given the chance, and would anyone say Princeton has had equal talent to Marquette since 2004 because in the last 8 years we've had the same number of top-10 players? In the past 8 years, Utah, Bradley, Weber State, and Davidson all have more top-10 draft picks than Marquette, does that mean they've had better college talent on average? Heck, USC has had 2 top-10 draft picks, and I definitely wouldn't put them on the same level as Marquette from an overall talent perspective.
Quote from: The Equalizer on August 22, 2012, 02:12:24 PM
I'm coming up with 291, including the bonuses (which apply only for '71 and '76). MU considers Wade, Meminger and Lee as our consensus 1st team AAs. Not sure what constitutes 2nd team consensus--i included anyone that was 2nd team on at least one of the major lists, and excluded Helms Foundation and anyone who was only honorable mention.
Points
15 Conference title - 5 points (3 1 for CUSA, plus 71 & 76)
9 Conference tournament title - 3 points (3--one for the GMC, plus 71 & 76)
Win percentage 80%+ 4 points, 60-79% 2 points, 35-49 -2 points, >35% -4 points
40 80+ WP (10 seasons)
50 60-79 WP (25 seasons)
-8 35-50 WP (4 seasons)
-8 <35 WP (2 seasons)
0 No. 1 seed - 2 points
27 NCAA tournament berth - 1 point
0 NCAA 1st-rd. win as 12-16-seed - 1 point
12 Losing in second round - 3 points
40 Sweet 16 loss - 5 pts
20 Elite Eight loss - 10 pts
15 National semifinal loss - 15 points
20 Title game loss - 20 points
25 National title - 25 points
1 NIT title - 1 point
9 First-team All-American - 3 points (Meminger, Lee, Wade)
20 Second-team All-American - 2 points (Not sure what is considered Consensus)
4 Player taken in NBA's top 10 - 2 points (4 points)
291 TOTAL
Given that Princeton (#22) has 289 points, we should know soon enough--I may have missed a few, but I'm not sure we have enough to climb into the top 15.
Nice analysis, E. My only question is with respect to "conference title" and "conf tourney title": didn't MU qualify for points in years other than '71 and '76?
Just as examples, look at '70 (finished 8, and ahead of Penn -Ivy and Drake -MVC) and '74 (finished 3). I am not sure whether definition of major back then is different than now, and therefore would include Ivy and MVC, for example (though it did include those as "major conferences" on the web site I used). If so, could add up to a significant number of points (8 for every such year). Potentially every year from '69 to '78?
I too wondered how they'll address Marquette's status as an Independent back then.
Quote from: LloydMooresLegs on August 22, 2012, 10:36:36 PM
Nice analysis, E. My only question is with respect to "conference title" and "conf tourney title": didn't MU qualify for points in years other than '71 and '76?
Just as examples, look at '70 (finished 8, and ahead of Penn -Ivy and Drake -MVC) and '74 (finished 3). I am not sure whether definition of major back then is different than now, and therefore would include Ivy and MVC, for example (though it did include those as "major conferences" on the web site I used). If so, could add up to a significant number of points (8 for every such year). Potentially every year from '69 to '78?
I interpreted their scoring rules incorrectly--I looked at years in which there were no more than two major conference champions ranked ahead of us.
Of course, you raise the key question--what do they qualifies as a major conference?
The other time consuming aspect behind looking this up is that you'd have to determine the conference champion and tournament champion each year from each those conferences, then map against the rankings.
I'd guess that if we did miss any years in the window, it's 69 and 75.
But that would still likely give us 8 additional points/year for 70, 72, 73, 74, and 77, brining the total to at least 331--and possibly 347.
Quote from: The Equalizer on August 23, 2012, 08:49:05 AM
But that would still likely give us 8 additional points/year for 70, 72, 73, 74, and 77, brining the total to at least 331--and possibly 347.
Looks like MU is #17 with 309 pts.
Quote from: The Equalizer on August 23, 2012, 08:49:05 AM
But that would still likely give us 8 additional points/year for 70, 72, 73, 74, and 77, brining the total to at least 331--and possibly 347.
291, 331, 347. And the correct answer is:309. More to an accurate audit than meets the eye.
Interesting that ESPN ranks MU as the #37 program during the TC/Buzz years. If it were a "snapshot" where do people think we stand right now? Maybe 15-20?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 23, 2012, 09:30:22 AM
291, 331, 347. And the correct answer is:309. More to an accurate audit than meets the eye.
Actually, its what
doesn't meet they eye.
ESPN never listed what they considered a "major" conference. Apparently its a much smaller list than first thought.
The initial 291 estimate included two years as the equivalent of a Conference & Touranment champion ('71 and '76). The 331 number assumed 7 years, and 347 assumed credit for all nine years from '69 to '78.
Apparently, the right answer is closer to only 4 seasons.
With all the conference re-alignment musical chairs going on it's nice to see MU considered a top 20 team over the last 50 years. Most of the points we got were not due to being in a BCS conference. Good to see the other non-football Catholic schools: Nova and Georgetown in there as well.
Interesting Poll they're running in the Marquette blog piece.
Best MU team?
I had to vote for the 1970-71 team. Despite not winning the title, they were a dominant that season. The 1973 team needs to be mentioned as well as they lost in the Championship game.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 23, 2012, 11:17:24 AM
Interesting that ESPN ranks MU as the #37 program during the TC/Buzz years. If it were a "snapshot" where do people think we stand right now? Maybe 15-20?
15-14, 15-14, 19-12, 19-12, 20-11, 22-12 & 22-15 are not very good records. Although the 22-15 was a sweet 16 year.
Actually McGuire's best teams did not happen, because of hardship rule.
72-73
Center- Chones 6-11, senior
forward Lucas 6-8,sophomore
forward-McNeil 6-9 junior
73-74
Center-Lucas 6-8 junior
forward McNeil 6-9, senior
forward Ellis 6-9- freshman
Quote from: bilsu on August 23, 2012, 07:01:49 PM
15-14, 15-14, 19-12, 19-12, 20-11, 22-12 & 22-15 are not very good records. Although the 22-15 was a sweet 16 year.
Dead on, Bilsu - #37 is about right for the Crean/Buzz years up to this point - and it's moved up in the last 4 years. My point was that many here have opined that Buzz walked into a top 20 program and that just wasn't true. One senior laden top 20 team, yes, but not a top 20 program.
Michigan and UNLV ranked 13-14 just goes to show that even in meaningless rankings, cheaters still prosper ;)
Bucky doesn't even make top 50 :)
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8298598/conference-breakdowns-50-50-rankings
Wisconsin checks in at #89. Remember, though, to most of their fanbase, basketball didn't exist before 1994.
With the win last night MU is now tied with Villanova at 16. For anybody that cares.
Quote from: cbowe3 on August 21, 2012, 03:43:56 PM
I like that they're doing the starting line up from the past 50 years. What would be your guys' starting 5? Mine is
PG- Butch Lee
SG- D Wade
SF- Bo Ellis
PF- Jim Chones
C- Mo Lucas
If we're going to be sticklers on position I would have Doc Rivers at the 3, and Bo at the 4.
Ball handling was so much more important in the no 3 point no shot clock era that it is tough to keep Dean Meminger off this list.
How could George Thompson our all time scoring leader (in 3 seasons, no 3pt shot) not be considered.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 24, 2013, 01:17:07 PM
How could George Thompson our all time scoring leader (in 3 seasons, no 3pt shot) not be considered.
He's no longer #1 on MU's list. He's now third, behind McNeil and Hayward.
Quote from: Sir Lawrence on March 24, 2013, 01:37:55 PM
He's no longer #1 on MU's list. He's now third, behind McNeil and Hayward.
Again the no 3pt and no shot clock certainly limited The points of the McGuire era players.
Quote from: Marqevans on March 24, 2013, 01:58:09 PM
Again the no 3pt and no shot clock certainly limited The points of the McGuire era players.
I know. I'm part of the McGuire era. Just pointing out that Brute Force is no longer officially número uno.
Quote from: Sir Lawrence on March 24, 2013, 03:53:37 PM
I know. I'm part of the McGuire era. Just pointing out that Brute Force is no longer officially número uno.
Just to clarify that I noted it in parentheses which probably was not clear in my post; yes Hayward and McNeal are ahead of Thompson, but they both played 4 years with the 3pt shot.
Quote from: Marqevans on March 24, 2013, 01:58:09 PM
Again the no 3pt and no shot clock certainly limited The points of the McGuire era players.
Also, for George and Dean, no freshman eligibility.
In 2005, Street and Smith ranked the all time programs, we were 33rd back then. We probably moved up, of course it depends on what others in front of us did.
http://the-w.com/thread.php/id=24509
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 24, 2013, 05:17:12 PM
In 2005, Street and Smith ranked the all time programs, we were 33rd back then. We probably moved up, of course it depends on what others in front of us did.
http://the-w.com/thread.php/id=24509
Used to LOVE Street and Smith, it was the only place to go for preseason and recruiting analysis. Not worth the paper it's printed on any more, and hasn't been for a long, long time.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 24, 2013, 05:17:12 PM
In 2005, Street and Smith ranked the all time programs, we were 33rd back then. We probably moved up, of course it depends on what others in front of us did.
http://the-w.com/thread.php/id=24509
Since 2005...
The list:
1. Kentucky - 2 SEC regular season and Tourney Championships, 6 NCAA appearances, 3 Sweet 16s, 3 Elite 8s, 2 Final Fours,
1 NCAA Title2. UCLA - 4 Pac 10 regular season champs, 2 Pac 10 Tourney champs, 6 NCAA appearances, 3 Sweet 16s, 3 Elite 8s, 3 Final Fours, 1 NCAA Runner Up
3. North Carolina - 5 ACC reg season champs, 2 ACC Tourney champs, 7 NCAA appearances, 5 Sweet 16s, 5 Elite 8s, 2 Final Fours,
1 NCAA Title4. Kansas - 8 Big 12 reg season champs, 6 Big 12 Tourney champs, 8 NCAA appearances, 2 Final Fours, 1 NCAA Runner Up,
1 NCAA Title5. Duke - 2 ACC reg season champs, 4 ACC Tourney Champs, 4 Sweet 16s, 1 Elite 8, 1 Final Four,
1 NCAA Title6. Indiana - 1 Big 10 reg season champ, 5 NCAA appearances
7. Louisville - 2 BE reg season champs, 3 BE Tourney champs, 7 NCAA appearances, 4 Sweet 16s, 3 Elite 8s, 1 Final Four
8. Arkansas - 3 NCAA appearances
9. Connectciut - 1 BE reg season champ, 1 BE Tourney champ, 4 NCAA appearances, 3 Sweet 16s, 2 Elite 8s, 2 Final Fours,
1 NCAA Title10. Cincinnati - 3 NCAA appearances, 1 Sweet 16
11. Utah - 1 MW reg season champ, 1 MW Tourney champ, 1 NCAA appearance, 1 Sweet 16
12. Ohio State - 5 Big 10 reg season champs, 4 Big 10 Tourney champ, 7 NCAA appearances, 5 Sweet 16s, 2 Elite 8s, 2 Final Fours, 1 NCAA Runner Up
13. Oklahoma State - 3 NCAA appearances
14. Arizona - 1 Pac 10 reg season champ, 6 NCAA appearances, 3 Sweet 16s, 1 Elite 8,
15. Syracuse - 2 BE reg season champs, 1 BE Tourney champ, 6 NCAA appearances, 4 Sweet 16s, 1 Elite 8
16. Pennsylvania - 2 Ivy reg season champs
17. NC State - 3 NCAA appearances, 1 Sweet 16
18. St. John's - 1 NCAA appearance
19. Princeton - 1 Ivy reg season champ, 1 NCAA appearance
20. Temple - 2 A10 reg season champs, 3 A10 tourney champs, 6 NCAA appearances
21. Georgetown - 3 BE reg season champs, 1 BE Tourney champ, 6 NCAA appearances, 2 Sweet 16s, 1 Elite 8, 1 Final Four
22. Kansas State - 1 Big 12 reg season champ, 5 NCAA appearances, 1 Sweet 16, 1 Elite 8
23. Texas - 2 Big 12 reg season champs, 7 NCAA appearances, 2 Sweet 16s, 2 Elite 8s
24. Oklahoma - 4 NCAA appearances, 1 Sweet 16, 1 Elite 8
25. Michigan State - 3 Big 10 reg season champs, 1 Big 10 Tourney champ, 8 NCAA appearances, 5 Sweet 16s, 2 Elite 8s, 2 Final Fours, 1 NCAA Runner Up
26. Michigan - 1 Big 10 reg season champ, 4 NCAA appearances, 1 Sweet 16
27. Illinois - 5 NCAA appearances
28. UNLV - 2 MW Tourney champs, 6 NCAA appearances, 1 Sweet 16
29. SAN FRANCISCO - NOTHING
30. Purdue - 1 Big 10 reg season champ, 1 Big 10 Tourney champ, 6 NCAA appearances, 2 Sweet 16s
31. W. Kentucky - 3 SB reg season champs, 4 SB Tourney champs, 4 NCAA appearances, 1 Sweet 16
32. Villanova - 1 BE reg season champ, 7 NCAA appearances, 3 Sweet 16s, 2 Elite 8s, 1 Final Four
33. Marquette - 1 BE reg season champ, 8 NCAA appearances, 3 Sweet 16s