This thought crossed my mind once McKay committed - could recruiting locally be part of the school's approach to clean its image in the local community? First off, a disclaimer - there are a ton of reasons to recruit locally (the top being that it should be easier). Milwaukee has plenty of talented recruits to keep this a top-notch program, and you should always seek these players out when they're there. That solves the competitive side of things. But we'd be fooling ourselves if we said that this program hasn't had its share of issues over the past couple of years, even with kids that are "good kids." Playing in the limelight changes a kid at least a little. I wonder, though, if recruiting "good kids" from your own backyard might keep things in check. These guys will be playing and living right in front of their families' noses, and you would have to think that this, paired with the media attention to any missteps, might make for a cleaner program.
I don't want to join the conspiracy theorists and suggest that the admins have their hands in basketball affairs, but it's something that could pay off handsomely for everyone.
No.
I do not think so.
I would argue that bringing in local kids would increase the likelihood of off-the-court issues, as various and sundry local friends and hangers-on who don't end up in college are more likely to lead a local kid astray. I think the benefits of recruiting local kids (increased local fan base, top dog for talent in a big city, local goodwill, etc.) far outweigh any negatives, but I don't think this will decrease likelihood of trouble/bad public press at all.
CTWarrior
Agreed completely. Do not think it is anything other than the amount of local talent out there right now.
look at 30 years of recruiting, not just now and the next few years. The quality of players in Milwaukee is way above average. This is not the norm. Besides Steve Novak from Brown
Deer, how many pros have there been? I like to see more kids from the area that are top echelon type of players, unfortunately it does happen. Allie McGuire and Jim Chones, Macilvane,
Key and Logterman. That is only 2 years in the last 40. Next year, 3 again. All 4 star players, not bad.
Quote from: BCHoopster on June 06, 2012, 04:32:16 PM
look at 30 years of recruiting, not just now and the next few years. The quality of players in Milwaukee is way above average. This is not the norm. Besides Steve Novak from Brown
Deer, how many pros have there been? I like to see more kids from the area that are top echelon type of players, unfortunately it does happen. Allie McGuire and Jim Chones, Macilvane,
Key and Logterman. That is only 2 years in the last 40. Next year, 3 again. All 4 star players, not bad.
Van Exel, Sprewell, Caron Butler to name a few...there have been some good MKE kids that went and played college ball elsewhere....Calvin Rayford to Kansas comes to mind, Quemont Greer, DePaul, Robert Jackson, etc...but yes, all in all, the level of talent in this 2 year window with Burton, Wilson, Stone, Looney...probably is unrivaled..
This is best local talent I have ever seen. Our stay focused on local talent makes a ton of sense and will pay big dividends down the road.
Quote from: Gardner's Postgame Snack on June 06, 2012, 03:59:07 PM
This thought crossed my mind once McKay committed - could recruiting locally be part of the school's approach to clean its image in the local community? First off, a disclaimer - there are a ton of reasons to recruit locally (the top being that it should be easier). Milwaukee has plenty of talented recruits to keep this a top-notch program, and you should always seek these players out when they're there. That solves the competitive side of things. But we'd be fooling ourselves if we said that this program hasn't had its share of issues over the past couple of years, even with kids that are "good kids." Playing in the limelight changes a kid at least a little. I wonder, though, if recruiting "good kids" from your own backyard might keep things in check. These guys will be playing and living right in front of their families' noses, and you would have to think that this, paired with the media attention to any missteps, might make for a cleaner program.
I don't want to join the conspiracy theorists and suggest that the admins have their hands in basketball affairs, but it's something that could pay off handsomely for everyone.
If MU were taking kids a notch below what the team had, you might be onto something. But the kids they're getting are as good of prospects as the school has gotten in quite some time.
Quote from: CTWarrior on June 06, 2012, 04:06:34 PM
I would argue that bringing in local kids would increase the likelihood of off-the-court issues, as various and sundry local friends and hangers-on who don't end up in college are more likely to lead a local kid astray. I think the benefits of recruiting local kids (increased local fan base, top dog for talent in a big city, local goodwill, etc.) far outweigh any negatives, but I don't think this will decrease likelihood of trouble/bad public press at all.
That's exactly what I I was going to write. I don't think Caron Butler would have been the same person he is today if he went to MU. Would've stayed with the same crowd that got him in trouble in HS. Maymon probably would have been better off going to Tenn from the start to get away from his dad. There's been unsubstantiated rumors for the same with Vander. Luckily, the kids we are recruiting from Milwaukee seem to be top notch on and off the field so we shouldn't have problems.
So the only thing holding us back from getting 4-and 5-star recruits is a "top down directive?"
It would have never occurred to Buzz to park the plane and recruit local guys unless he was ordered too?
Is this the premise of this thread?
No. Buzz/MU is playing a style of basketball that is attractive to athletic guards/wings/switchables. There is a plethora of D1 talent coming out of Milwaukee, more than there has been in years, many of whom are athletic guards/wings/switchables. It really is nothing more than a fortuitous coincidence.
I don't think there's any directive, like tower said I think it's a fortuitous coincidence. However, I could see these guys having the positive impact from a PR perspective that the OP describes. By all accounts, this is a great group of kids with their academics in order. If Milwaukee's Best has success on and off the court, I could easily see them being embraced well beyond the campus borders. Other than Sundays, there's a massive gap in the Milwaukee sports landscape from November through March. A successful bunch of Milwaukee guys could change that.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on June 06, 2012, 07:19:56 PM
So the only thing holding us back from getting 4-and 5-star recruits is a "top down directive?"
It would have never occurred to Buzz to park the plane and recruit local guys unless he was ordered too?
Is this the premise of this thread?
Yeah, think of all the the absolute studs from Milwaukee Buzz has missed out on over the last 4 years. There's Tokoto and umm...
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 06, 2012, 07:58:48 PM
Yeah, think of all the the absolute studs from Milwaukee Buzz has missed out on over the last 4 years. There's Tokoto and umm...
Umm's a hell of a player, but I just can't see him getting playing time where he went. Look for a transfer to MU after he sits on the end of the bench for a year or two.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on June 06, 2012, 07:19:56 PM
So the only thing holding us back from getting 4-and 5-star recruits is a "top down directive?"
It would have never occurred to Buzz to park the plane and recruit local guys unless he was ordered too?
Is this the premise of this thread?
It is the premise of the originator of the thread...the rest of us think he is off-base.
Quote from: Ners on June 06, 2012, 05:01:40 PM
Van Exel, Sprewell, Caron Butler to name a few...there have been some good MKE kids that went and played college ball elsewhere....Calvin Rayford to Kansas comes to mind, Quemont Greer, DePaul, Robert Jackson, etc...but yes, all in all, the level of talent in this 2 year window with Burton, Wilson, Stone, Looney...probably is unrivaled..
You could count Diener. He was from Fondy, but played with Milwaukee AAU teams. Devin Harris too, even though he chose the dark side. Jerry Smith and Korie Lucious are also up there with the other players you mentioned.
This being done solely to cut down on the cost of the private jet!
Don't forget Tosa East's Tony Smith. That's going back 25 years, though.
Quote from: LittleMurs on June 06, 2012, 09:59:09 PM
Umm's a hell of a player, but I just can't see him getting playing time where he went. Look for a transfer to MU after he sits on the end of the bench for a year or two.
Ummm wanted to go to UW (like every kid in Wisconsin), but Bo cooled on him. Plus, he couldn't cut it academically in Madison and his parents are awful human beings.
It's the luck of the draw on the recruiting front. SE Wisconsin is experiencing the best level of D1 talent in the history of the area. Marquette under Buzz has established a signature style of play and the top talent is noticing. Buzz had to go the JUCO route to band-aid years of inconsistent recruiting, he had to go to the four corners of the country to find overlooked talent. Now he is beginning to harvest the success of the past four years. Remember right after Williams was hired when Bob Hurley was saying he wouldn't trust Buzz to coach Tyshawn Taylor? Now Buzz's name is being mentioned as one of the top five college coaches in the country.
Quote from: Tulsa Warrior on June 07, 2012, 10:54:31 AM
It's the luck of the draw on the recruiting front. SE Wisconsin is experiencing the best level of D1 talent in the history of the area. Marquette under Buzz has established a signature style of play and the top talent is noticing. Buzz had to go the JUCO route to band-aid years of inconsistent recruiting, he had to go to the four corners of the country to find overlooked talent. Now he is beginning to harvest the success of the past four years. Remember right after Williams was hired when Bob Hurley was saying he wouldn't trust Buzz to coach Tyshawn Taylor? Now Buzz's name is being mentioned as one of the top five college coaches in the country.
+1000. If I were Buzz i'd never even look at a player coached by Hurley in the future, but he's a much better Christian than me - and Hurley does have some really good players ;D
At the time Buzz was an unproven talent. I think what Hurley did was reasonable. He never said he did not like Buzz, he just said he was not sure about Buzz because he was not proven. Their is nothing wrong with that stance.
My guess is Hurley is now sure about Buzz and would not hesitate if any of his kids were interested in MU.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on June 07, 2012, 03:34:44 PM
At the time Buzz was an unproven talent. I think what Hurley did was reasonable. He never said he did not like Buzz, he just said he was not sure about Buzz because he was not proven. Their is nothing wrong with that stance.
My guess is Hurley is now sure about Buzz and would not hesitate if any of his kids were interested in MU.
In all fairness, Hurley was simply running interference - taking the bullet, so to speak - for his player who used Crean's departure as an opportunity to take a better offer. As soon as Kansas came calling - which probably occurred about 30 minutes after Crean took the IU job - Taylor wanted out. And Hurley was happy to play the bad guy to help his player.
Quote from: Pakuni on June 07, 2012, 03:55:17 PM
In all fairness, Hurley was simply running interference - taking the bullet, so to speak - for his player who used Crean's departure as an opportunity to take a better offer. As soon as Kansas came calling - which probably occurred about 30 minutes after Crean took the IU job - Taylor wanted out. And Hurley was happy to play the bad guy to help his player.
This is exactly what happened, though I still think Hurley was over the top with his criticism of MU for allegedly dragging their feet on Taylor's release.
... and today Buzz is tight with both Ty Taylor and his family. Ty came to see MU play against Duke two years ago in Kansas City and Ty parents went to see MU play Seton Hall in New Jersey.
If Ty wanted out four years ago, he probably would not want out today.
It sucks Ty never became a warrior but the motives were ok. Given the change in head coaches meaning you play for an unproven assistant you do not know or Self at Kansas, which would you pick?
I'm surprised Ty did not follow Crean to IU like Nick Williams.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on June 07, 2012, 04:04:53 PM
I'm surprised Ty did not follow Crean to IU like Nick Williams.
I'm not.
Self and KU coming off a national championship >>>>>> Crean and IU on probation.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, Buzz was the lead recruiter on Taylor. Or at least Taylor said Buzz is the guy who recruited him. so it's not like they didn't know one another.
Simply a matter of taking a better offer. An 18-year-old guy might like his high school girlfriend just fine, but if Kate Upton comes calling, she's going to be out of the picture mighty fast.
Quote from: Tulsa Warrior on June 07, 2012, 10:54:31 AM
It's the luck of the draw on the recruiting front. SE Wisconsin is experiencing the best level of D1 talent in the history of the area. Marquette under Buzz has established a signature style of play and the top talent is noticing. Buzz had to go the JUCO route to band-aid years of inconsistent recruiting, he had to go to the four corners of the country to find overlooked talent. Now he is beginning to harvest the success of the past four years. Remember right after Williams was hired when Bob Hurley was saying he wouldn't trust Buzz to coach Tyshawn Taylor? Now Buzz's name is being mentioned as one of the top five college coaches in the country.
Mike Krzyzewski, Bill Self, Roy Williams, John Calipari, Tom Izzo, Rick Pitino, Jim Boeheim, Bob Huggins, Jom Calhoun,Thad Matta, and Billy Donovan are all better coaches. You can make cases for guys like Brad Stevens, Tom Crean, Sean Miller, Scott Drew, Mark Few, Ben Howland, Jay Wright, Jamie Dixon, Frank Martin, John Thompson III, Mike Brey, Bo Ryan, and John Beihlein as well. I love Buzz as much as the next, but let's not go overboard. He is nowhere near a top 5 coach right now. Not top 10, either. Top 5 up and coming coach? I can definitely agree to that. He has an NCAA Tournament record of 5-4 and his best finish is the Sweet 16. Not bad, but top 5 coaches? No. Might not even be top 5 currently in the Big East.
Your point on going to JUCOs in his first few years as a band-aid is also wrong. Maybe the first year that's what it was with Butler, but he is still signing JUCOs. He signs them because they are very talented players who work hard for their success.
Quote from: wadesworld on June 07, 2012, 04:26:40 PM
Mike Krzyzewski, Bill Self, Roy Williams, John Calipari, Tom Izzo, Rick Pitino, Jim Boeheim, Bob Huggins, Jom Calhoun,Thad Matta, and Billy Donovan are all better coaches. You can make cases for guys like Brad Stevens, Tom Crean, Sean Miller, Scott Drew, Mark Few, Ben Howland, Jay Wright, Jamie Dixon, Frank Martin, John Thompson III, Mike Brey, Bo Ryan, and John Beihlein as well. I love Buzz as much as the next, but let's not go overboard. He is nowhere near a top 5 coach right now. Not top 10, either. Top 5 up and coming coach? I can definitely agree to that. He has an NCAA Tournament record of 5-4 and his best finish is the Sweet 16. Not bad, but top 5 coaches? No. Might not even be top 5 currently in the Big East.
Your point on going to JUCOs in his first few years as a band-aid is also wrong. Maybe the first year that's what it was with Butler, but he is still signing JUCOs. He signs them because they are very talented players who work hard for their success.
In terms of length of established success, no, Buzz cannot compare to Boheim, Calhoun, Pitino, Huggins, and many of the others you name - but Buzz has fared quite well head to head against those guys, and really, he didn't have a full deck of cards to play with his 2nd year here. Personally, I wouldn't take any of the above guys over Buzz - and I sure as hell would choose Buzz over Brey, Beilien, Drew, Stevens, Howland, Wright, JT III, Frank Martin, Bo Ryan, and yes Tom Crean...as all indications are the Buzz will have sustained year in, year out success. Sean Miller and Jamie Dixon are probably on a similar level as Buzz.
Of those you name, I think an argument could be made for Coach K, Self, Roy Williams, Calipari, Izzo, - as to who you can definitively rank ahead of Buzz. Would you trade Buzz for any of those on your list?
Quote from: Ners on June 07, 2012, 05:52:32 PM
Of those you name, I think an argument could be made for Coach K, Self, Roy Williams, Calipari, Izzo, - as to who you can definitively rank ahead of Buzz. Would you trade Buzz for any of those on your list?
You hit the nail on the head - it means absolutely nothing where Buzz stands "historically" versus the guys Wadesworld mentions. It's who would you trade him for right now if you're Marquette? For me that's a very short list.
The list of coaches that I would take over Buzz is pretty short. Mark Few comes to mind, and I do think that Tony Bennett is a helluva coach. He would certainly thrive in Milwaukee.
Quote from: Ners on June 07, 2012, 05:52:32 PM
In terms of length of established success, no, Buzz cannot compare to Boheim, Calhoun, Pitino, Huggins, and many of the others you name - but Buzz has fared quite well head to head against those guys, and really, he didn't have a full deck of cards to play with his 2nd year here. Personally, I wouldn't take any of the above guys over Buzz - and I sure as hell would choose Buzz over Brey, Beilien, Drew, Stevens, Howland, Wright, JT III, Frank Martin, Bo Ryan, and yes Tom Crean...as all indications are the Buzz will have sustained year in, year out success. Sean Miller and Jamie Dixon are probably on a similar level as Buzz.
Of those you name, I think an argument could be made for Coach K, Self, Roy Williams, Calipari, Izzo, - as to who you can definitively rank ahead of Buzz. Would you trade Buzz for any of those on your list?
I would consider Brad Stevens. The guy can COACH. Wonder what he could do with the budget and conference Marquette is in. I like Wright and JT3 a lot. Pretty much every one of the listed guys have been to a Final Four in the past decade. I'm not ready to claim Buzz is a top 5 coach when the total amount of NCAA wins in his coaching career would equal making it to an NCAA Title game in one season.
The post I originally quoted said that Buzz is now being talked about as a top 5 coach. Outside of biased Marquette forums, I have never seen anything close to that. Top 5 up and coming I have and agree with. Top 5 coaches in the NCAA no way.
Coaches I would absolutely take over Buzz without hesitation would be K, Roy, Izzo, Calipari, Donovan, and Matta. Probably would take Stevens. Would consider Dixon, Wright, Miller, Few, and JT3. I would consider Huggins, Calhoun, Boeheim, and Pitino better coaches but would not want them coaching Marquette.
Quote from: PJDunn on June 07, 2012, 07:04:15 PM
The list of coaches that I would take over Buzz is pretty short. Mark Few comes to mind, and I do think that Tony Bennett is a helluva coach. He would certainly thrive in Milwaukee.
Somehow I just don't find Few or Bennett even close to Buzz in terms of the whole package - recruiting, coaching, and personality. Few strikes me as uber boring. Bennett - well, the guy hasn't exactly lit it up at Virginia in his 2 or 3 years there. Don't doubt Bennett being a good X's and O's guy, but not sure he has the cache/panache Buzz does.
A little Connecticut pride here. Calhoun is 70 or close to it so I would rather have Buzz now, but Buzz is not near his equal. Look at Northeastern pre-Calhoun era, Calhoun era and post Calhoun era some time. UConn was nowhere before Calhoun arrived. A fixture in the 8-9 game in the old 9 team Big East. They had no sustained success for decades, played their non-con games in a more than half-empty 4,500 seat on-campus fieldhouse and their Big East games in Hartford that often had more fans of the opposing team. You wouldn't believe what a big deal it was when they made their first NIT under him. He turned that situation into a powerhouse with 3 national championships. If you told somebody when they hired Calhoun that he'd coach them to 1 Big East championship before he retired nobody would have believed it, let alone 3 national championships.
There is no way you can call Buzz a top 5 coach in any logical discussion. The weird thing is, though, if I could have any NCAA coach at Marquette right now, there might not be 5 guys I'd definitely rather have. I can only think of 3 for absolute sure. Coach K (and even he is quite old), Calipari and Pitino would be tremendously successful at MU or anywhere, but would Roy Williams be able to recruit to Marquette? We're not Kansas or UNC, that's for sure. Would Izzo? Suffice it to say that I'm quite happy with the guy we got.
Coaches I would rather have than Buzz over the next ten years: Izzo and Self for sure. (Coach K is too old....Calipari and Pitino I want no part of) Donovan and Matta would be in the discussion.
But that's it.
Quote from: Ners on June 07, 2012, 05:52:32 PM
In terms of length of established success, no, Buzz cannot compare to Boheim, Calhoun, Pitino, Huggins, and many of the others you name - but Buzz has fared quite well head to head against those guys, and really, he didn't have a full deck of cards to play with his 2nd year here. Personally, I wouldn't take any of the above guys over Buzz - and I sure as hell would choose Buzz over Brey, Beilien, Drew, Stevens, Howland, Wright, JT III, Frank Martin, Bo Ryan, and yes Tom Crean...as all indications are the Buzz will have sustained year in, year out success. Sean Miller and Jamie Dixon are probably on a similar level as Buzz.
Not true. He had two--and likely three--future NBA players on that team--Hayward, Butler, and DJO. A fourth in the NBA-DevLeague (Buycks). And an outside shot at a fifth if Otule continues to improve.
He also had Acker, who is MU's all-time Senior 3 point % shooter, and Cadougan--who is 7th all-time.
It's true that some people didn't
think we had much talent going into the year. They were wrong.
It's amazing that 2 or 3 years later, people are still perpetrating the "lack of talent" myth rather than just admit that they simply didn't see it.
Quote from: Ners on June 07, 2012, 05:52:32 PM
Personally, I wouldn't take any of the above guys over Buzz - and I sure as hell would choose Buzz over Brey, Beilien, Drew, Stevens, Howland, Wright, JT III, Frank Martin, Bo Ryan, and yes Tom Crean...as all indications are the Buzz will have sustained year in, year out success. Sean Miller and Jamie Dixon are probably on a similar level as Buzz.
Don't understimate Brey. He actually has achieved the success with undertated players. Buzz has always had highly rated players on the roster--granted they're from the JUCO ranks, but he's relied on JUCO AAs--who are equivalent to top 40 HS players. I'm not sure Brey has ever had a top 40 player--and he still manages to typically put Notre Dame in contention for a top half finish in the Big East.
I'd probably take Drew over Buzz--he's turnd Baylor--a "never was" program with more serious baggage and geographic challenges than virtually any program in the contry--to a level that is arguably above where Marquette currently is at.
Miller has had sustained sucess at Xavier, and is turning the basket case of Arizona around. I'd take him in a heartbeat.
And Stevens has two final fours. You've got to respect that.
Agree on Howland (no disciplne) Ryan (too old) Wright (too inconsisent) Beilein (too boring)
I see Martin, Buzz, Crean, and Dixon as a wash.
Quote from: Ners on June 07, 2012, 05:52:32 PM
Of those you name, I think an argument could be made for Coach K, Self, Roy Williams, Calipari, Izzo, - as to who you can definitively rank ahead of Buzz. Would you trade Buzz for any of those on your list?
An argument can be made? You think?
Quote from: The Equalizer on June 08, 2012, 09:16:50 AM
I'd probably take Drew over Buzz--he's turnd Baylor--a "never was" program with more serious baggage and geographic challenges than virtually any program in the contry--to a level that is arguably above where Marquette currently is at.
First off, I think Buzz is a much better game coach than Drew.
Second, let's see what happens to Baylor over the next decade or so. Let's just say that I am skeptical that his success is on the up-and-up.
Quote from: The Equalizer on June 08, 2012, 09:16:50 AM
Not true. He had two--and likely three--future NBA players on that team--Hayward, Butler, and DJO. A fourth in the NBA-DevLeague (Buycks). And an outside shot at a fifth if Otule continues to improve.
He also had Acker, who is MU's all-time Senior 3 point % shooter, and Cadougan--who is 7th all-time.
It's amazing that 2 or 3 years later, people are still perpetrating the "lack of talent" myth rather than just admit that they simply didn't see it.
Marquette was the 341st ranked teams in terms of height that year. Lazar was a borderline top 100 player out of prep school. DJO was in the 150-200 range. Cubillan and Acker were not in the top 200 and Jimmy was rated #82 - in the state of Texas! Except for Acker subbing for an injured DJ in a few games, Hayward was the only player to have started a Big East game. Incredibly short - check. No physicality - check. Low rankings - check. Inexprienced at the high D1 level - check. Certainly all the qualities one expects in a juggernaut. The whole basketball world thinks Buzz was a miracle worker with that team. Except you. They're right. You're wrong.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 08, 2012, 11:22:53 AM
Marquette was the 341st ranked teams in terms of height that year. Lazar was a borderline top 100 player out of prep school. DJO was in the 150-200 range. Cubillan and Acker were not in the top 200 and Jimmy was rated #82 - in the state of Texas! Except for Acker subbing for an injured DJ in a few games, Hayward was the only player to have started a Big East game. Incredibly short - check. No physicality - check. Low rankings - check. Inexprienced at the high D1 level - check. Certainly all the qualities one expects in a juggernaut. The whole basketball world thinks Buzz was a miracle worker with that team. Except you. They're right. You're wrong.
Not to mention Buzz completely changed the style of play from the team before and the teams since to maximize every inch of talent on that squad.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 08, 2012, 11:22:53 AM
Marquette was the 341st ranked teams in terms of height that year. Lazar was a borderline top 100 player out of prep school. DJO was in the 150-200 range. Cubillan and Acker were not in the top 200 and Jimmy was rated #82 - in the state of Texas! Except for Acker subbing for an injured DJ in a few games, Hayward was the only player to have started a Big East game. Incredibly short - check. No physicality - check. Low rankings - check. Inexprienced at the high D1 level - check. Certainly all the qualities one expects in a juggernaut. The whole basketball world thinks Buzz was a miracle worker with that team. Except you. They're right. You're wrong.
Thanks Lennys Tap. You saved me from having to reply :) :)
Quote from: Jamailman on June 08, 2012, 11:33:56 AM
Not to mention Buzz completely changed the style of play from the team before and the teams since to maximize every inch of talent on that squad.
That was what blew my mind. It was a completely different system in the drop of a hat. Same thing with this year when DG and Otule went down.
One of Buzz's greatest attributes is that he's agile. Whatever gets thrown his way he adapts quickly because he's not overly attached to how brilliant his last plan was. The best plan is the one that works.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on June 08, 2012, 11:38:00 AM
That was what blew my mind. It was a completely different system in the drop of a hat. Same thing with this year when DG and Otule went down.
One of Buzz's greatest attributes is that he's agile. Whatever gets thrown his way he adapts quickly because he's not overly attached to how brilliant his last plan was. The best plan is the one that works.
Definitely one of his best coaching qualities. It was first seen in the second year, but really driven home this past year like you said. There was the first style of play with a fully loaded gun, then Otule went down and after a few games the second style clicked featuring Davante. Then Davante went down and a third uptempo style went on a tear. We were a dominant well-oiled machine before the injuries, but Buzz has shown the ability to change it up and do well when he needs to get creative. Fun to watch.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 08, 2012, 11:22:53 AM
Marquette was the 341st ranked teams in terms of height that year. Lazar was a borderline top 100 player out of prep school. DJO was in the 150-200 range. Cubillan and Acker were not in the top 200 and Jimmy was rated #82 - in the state of Texas! Except for Acker subbing for an injured DJ in a few games, Hayward was the only player to have started a Big East game. Incredibly short - check. No physicality - check. Low rankings - check. Inexprienced at the high D1 level - check. Certainly all the qualities one expects in a juggernaut. The whole basketball world thinks Buzz was a miracle worker with that team. Except you. They're right. You're wrong.
These were all the arguments from BEFORE the 2010 season.
Yet AFTER the season we KNOW how these players turned out. Two of them have already made the NBA. A third is likely. A fourth made the NBA-DL. A fifth has an outsite shot. To continue to argue that there was no talent on the team in 2010 an exercise from fantasy land.
Worse, it's an insult to Hayward and DJO and Butler for you to say they showed no improvement between those High School rankings you cite and the the 2010 season. Those guys worked DAMN HARD to improve themselves, and only a complete moron would think that they had made no progress. By the fall of 2009, they were each SIGNIFICANTLY better than those oudated HS rankings you stated.
Keep in mind, even Michael Jordan was cut from his HS team. But I guess a guy like you would say Jordand did nothing to better himself--and it was all on Dean Smith working miracles.
Face it. You initially thought these guys didn't have that much talent. They proved you wrong. And now, you don't want to give them credit.
They turned out that way because Buzz coached them into it. Your argument seems to be that there was so much talent there that anybody could have coached it and had it turn out the way it did. Most of the rest believe that Buzz got the most out of those players and coached them into being NBA ready. You can continue to make your argument for as long as you want, but nobody buys it.
Quote from: The Equalizer on June 08, 2012, 02:03:06 PM
These were all the arguments from BEFORE the 2010 season.
Yet AFTER the season we KNOW how these players turned out. Two of them have already made the NBA. A third is likely. A fourth made the NBA-DL. A fifth has an outsite shot. To continue to argue that there was no talent on the team in 2010 an exercise from fantasy land.
Worse, it's an insult to Hayward and DJO and Butler for you to say they showed no improvement between those High School rankings you cite and the the 2010 season. Those guys worked DAMN HARD to improve themselves, and only a complete moron would think that they had made no progress. By the fall of 2009, they were each SIGNIFICANTLY better than those oudated HS rankings you stated.
Keep in mind, even Michael Jordan was cut from his HS team. But I guess a guy like you would say Jordand did nothing to better himself--and it was all on Dean Smith working miracles.
Face it. You initially thought these guys didn't have that much talent. They proved you wrong. And now, you don't want to give them credit.
Man, you are going to great pains as usual to diminish Buzz' accomplishments. That squad had a really low ceiling, and it was reached. We were undersized at every position. The senior starters at the 1 and 2 spots were both under 6' and were very good at two things: three point shooting and not turning the ball over. That's it. The 3 spot was manned by 6'1" DJO or 6'2" Buycks, both of whom were new to D1 ball. DJO was great at catch and shoot that year, but he wasn't the DJO of this past year where he was lethal off the drive, pullup jumper, and beyond the arc. Jimmy was a great offensive player that year, but not yet the lockdown defender he became by the end of his senior year. You know, cuz players develop over time and stuff. Hayward was Hayward, the star of the show one of my favorites to put on an MU uni. But that doesn't change the fact that he was a 6'4" 3/4 playing center for 36+ mpg. Yet you want to act like that team wasn't severely limited. Not even sure how you managed to interject this subject into a thread about a hypothetical Milwaukee recruiting directive, but I'd expect nothing less from Marquette84 I guess. It's beyond comprehension why you want to spin it the complete opposite, but to each his own.
Quote from: The Equalizer on June 08, 2012, 02:03:06 PM
These were all the arguments from BEFORE the 2010 season.
Keep in mind, even Michael Jordan was cut from his HS team. But I guess a guy like you would say Jordand did nothing to better himself--and it was all on Dean Smith working miracles.
A red herring wrapped up in an inaccuracy. Michael Jordan wasn't cut from his high school team, he just didn't immediately make the varsity as a 14 year old sophmore. He played a few JV games before being brought up to the varsity, where he played and starred for 2+ years. He was a McDonald's All American and a star from day one at UNC. Only a complete moron (your words) would compare him or his circumstances entering college to anyone on our 2009-10 team.
Quote from: tower912 on June 08, 2012, 02:03:51 PM
They turned out that way because Buzz coached them into it. Your argument seems to be that there was so much talent there that anybody could have coached it and had it turn out the way it did. Most of the rest believe that Buzz got the most out of those players and coached them into being NBA ready. You can continue to make your argument for as long as you want, but nobody buys it.
Anybody? No. Any of the D1 coaches mentioned in this thread? Absolutely.
Look at the NBA draft over the last four years. Lots of players were drafted and made the league that weren't coached by Buzz Williams. Amazing, isn't in? Listening to you, only Buzz Williams could coach a player into the NBA draft. Yet some of the 240 players drafted over the last 4 years weren't any more highly rated in their junior or senior year in HS than were Butler or Hayward or DJO.
Then take a look at the MU rosters over the last four years. Lots of Buzz Williams coached players that haven't made the NBA. Hell, some of them didn't even made it to their senior (or even freshman) season at Marquette. And some of those were rated even higher than Butler or Hayward or DJO.
My Conclusion: Buzz doesn't have unique or magical skill that can turn any player into an NBA star.
I'm not saying that Buzz doesn't deserve some credit for coaching them.
But let's put this in perspective: these guys had the right combination of raw talent, drive, determination, and desire to succeed. Buzz got it out of them, but I have no dobut that if they had played for any of the other coaches listed in this thread, these players would have done just as well.
Quote from: The Equalizer on June 08, 2012, 09:16:50 AM
Don't understimate Brey. He actually has achieved the success with undertated players. I'm not sure Brey has ever had a top 40 player--and he still manages to typically put Notre Dame in contention for a top half finish in the Big East.
So Brey goes to the NIT or the first or second round of the NCAA with players rated out of high school between 50 - 150. I'll agree with you that's pretty good. What would you say about a guy who got a 6 seed in the NCAA tournament without a single starter in the top 100 out of high school? Only 2 in the top 200? With the smallest team in a BCS conference? And only one guy who had ever started a conference game other than due to injury? You'd call him a guy who coached a team that was loaded. Right.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 08, 2012, 02:53:57 PM
So Brey goes to the NIT or the first or second round of the NCAA with players rated out of high school between 50 - 150. I'll agree with you that's pretty good. What would you say about a guy who got a 6 seed in the NCAA tournament without a single starter in the top 100 out of high school? Only 2 in the top 200? With the smallest team in a BCS conference? And only one guy who had ever started a conference game other than due to injury? You'd call him a guy who coached a team that was loaded. Right.
It depends on how many JUCO AAs he had.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 08, 2012, 02:35:33 PM
A red herring wrapped up in an inaccuracy. Michael Jordan wasn't cut from his high school team, he just didn't immediately make the varsity as a 14 year old sophmore. He played a few JV games before being brought up to the varsity, where he played and starred for 2+ years. He was a McDonald's All American and a star from day one at UNC. Only a complete moron (your words) would compare him or his circumstances entering college to anyone on our 2009-10 team.
\
Thank you for making my point.
Talking down Butler by citing his "#81 rank in Texas" going into MU's 2010 season is inaccurate as talking down Jordan by saying "he was cut from his HS team" going into the NBA draft.
One hell of a lot happened in between for both players.
I'm glad you recognize it with Jordan. Too bad you don't with Butler, Hayward or DJO.
Quote from: The Equalizer on June 08, 2012, 02:59:50 PM
Thank you for making my point.
Talking down Butler by citing his "#81 rank in Texas" going into MU's 2010 season is inaccurate as talking down Jordan by saying "he was cut from his HS team" going into the NBA draft.
Comparing Butler's being ranked 82nd in Texas after his high school career to a guy playing a couple of games on the JVs as a sophmore in high school is asinine. It does nothing to prove your point. You have no point that can be proven.
According to polls, more than 15% of the people in this country think George Bush personally brought down the towers. They are outliers, and it's fruitless to try to reason with them. In that spirit, I'll stop trying to reason with you.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 08, 2012, 03:23:53 PM
According to polls, more than 15% of the people in this country think George Bush personally brought down the towers. They are outliers, and it's fruitless to try to reason with them. In that spirit, I'll stop trying to reason with you.
Here's what is asinine:
Knowing that Jimmy Butler was a
2008 JUCO All American and in
2009 he played 20 mpg for MU and earned the #1 Offense Rating in the Big East, continuing to argue that on the eve of the
2010 season we should judge Jimmy Butler solely on the basis of a
2007 Texas HS ranking.
But maybe you have good reason to ignore the 2008 and 2009 performance.
Here's my use of reason: Butler's 2008 JUCO AA and 2009 #1 Big East O-Rating are far better indicators of his potential than the 2007 HS rank you cite. They're better because they are more recent and therfore reflect all the development that took palce between your beloved 2007 ranking and the 2010 season.
Because you ignored two years of more recent performance data and relied on outdated 3-year old estimates of Butler's ability, you vastly underestimated what Butler was capable of.
Because I used the most recent data--including his 2008 and 2009 performance--my prediction was on the mark.
Reasonable enough for you?
Equalizer, honest question: what are you attempting to get from this? Why are you going to painstaking lengths grasping at straws to say Buzz didn't do a great coaching job in 2010? Or is that even what you're saying? I'm confused. Please help.
Quote from: Jamailman on June 08, 2012, 04:25:16 PM
Equalizer, honest question: what are you attempting to get from this? Why are you going to painstaking lengths grasping at straws to say Buzz didn't do a great coaching job in 2010? Or is that even what you're saying? I'm confused. Please help.
As I read it, I don't think that he's saying that Buzz didn't do a great job. I think he's saying that the people who say, "the cupboard was bare" are insulting some very good players who were on the team. It's not an insult to Buzz to say that that team turned out to be more talented than a lot of people realized at the time.
Quote from: Jamailman on June 08, 2012, 04:25:16 PM
Equalizer, honest question: what are you attempting to get from this? Why are you going to painstaking lengths grasping at straws to say Buzz didn't do a great coaching job in 2010? Or is that even what you're saying? I'm confused. Please help.
He did a fine coaching job in 2010.
I just don't understand the constant need of some here to constantly talk down our players.
Lenny will run from this debate--like he always does--becuase he has no good answer as to why he characterizes Butler as the #81 HS player in Texas instead of the fast rising JUCO All-American from Tyler JC.
Its funny, because Buzz deserves a lot of credit for landing a great player over competition from Iowa State Clemson, Mississippi State and Kentucky--after only a couple of weeks on the job.
But it doesn't fit the narrative that poor ol Buzz in the lurch with nobody on the roster.
Quote from: The Equalizer on June 08, 2012, 03:44:52 PM
Here's what is asinine:
Knowing that Jimmy Butler was a 2008 JUCO All American and in 2009 he played 20 mpg for MU and earned the #1 Offense Rating in the Big East, continuing to argue that on the eve of the 2010 season we should judge Jimmy Butler solely on the basis of a 2007 Texas HS ranking.
But maybe you have good reason to ignore the 2008 and 2009 performance.
Here's my use of reason: Butler's 2008 JUCO AA and 2009 #1 Big East O-Rating are far better indicators of his potential than the 2007 HS rank you cite. They're better because they are more recent and therfore reflect all the development that took palce between your beloved 2007 ranking and the 2010 season.
Because you ignored two years of more recent performance data and relied on outdated 3-year old estimates of Butler's ability, you vastly underestimated what Butler was capable of.
Because I used the most recent data--including his 2008 and 2009 performance--my prediction was on the mark.
Reasonable enough for you?
You specialize in making technically true but intentionally misleading statements to bolster your weak argument. Jimmy wasn't a 1st team, 2nd team or even 3rd team juco AA. So he wasn't in the top 30. He was Honorable Mention - the next 30. Please give me the long list of Jucos who don't make the 1st, 2nd or 3rd team who make the NBA. Thanks in advance. He was a good player off the bench his first year with a very high offensive efficiency rating, but a great deal of his "efficiency" stemmed from the fact the most of his touches were offensive rebounds/putback no footers. Those are the truths behind your intentionally misleading "facts".
Quote from: The Equalizer on June 08, 2012, 02:52:10 PM
Anybody? No. Any of the D1 coaches mentioned in this thread? Absolutely.
Look at the NBA draft over the last four years. Lots of players were drafted and made the league that weren't coached by Buzz Williams. Amazing, isn't in? Listening to you, only Buzz Williams could coach a player into the NBA draft. Yet some of the 240 players drafted over the last 4 years weren't any more highly rated in their junior or senior year in HS than were Butler or Hayward or DJO.
Then take a look at the MU rosters over the last four years. Lots of Buzz Williams coached players that haven't made the NBA. Hell, some of them didn't even made it to their senior (or even freshman) season at Marquette. And some of those were rated even higher than Butler or Hayward or DJO.
My Conclusion: Buzz doesn't have unique or magical skill that can turn any player into an NBA star.
I'm not saying that Buzz doesn't deserve some credit for coaching them.
But let's put this in perspective: these guys had the right combination of raw talent, drive, determination, and desire to succeed. Buzz got it out of them, but I have no dobut that if they had played for any of the other coaches listed in this thread, these players would have done just as well.
We disagree. You choose to see what they became. I am of the opinion they became that through what Buzz did. You say that any topnotch coach could have accomplished the same with that team. I disagree. Please cite the last coach to have th 341st tallest team in the country, playing 6 deep, take a team to the tourney. The number of one posession games that team won down the stretch when many were ready to give up in February after the loss to DePaul. Looking back at that team, I am willing to call that one of the top 5 coaching jobs I have seen in my 30+ years of basketball fanaticism. Not at MU. Anywhere. But it comes down to this. I believe that Buzz's coaching developed Lazar, JB, and DJO into NBA players. You don't. Neither is going to change the other's mind.
But you and I had the same argument when you were posting as MU84. You felt the job Crean did in MU's first season in the BEast with the 3 freshmen Amigos was better. I acknowledge it was good. I just think 09-10 was one of the great coaching jobs ever. Our positions haven't changed, just one of our handles.
Quote from: tower912 on June 08, 2012, 06:33:38 PM
We disagree. You choose to see what they became. I am of the opinion they became that through what Buzz did. You say that any topnotch coach could have accomplished the same with that team. I disagree. Please cite the last coach to have th 341st tallest team in the country, playing 6 deep, take a team to the tourney. The number of one posession games that team won down the stretch when many were ready to give up in February after the loss to DePaul. Looking back at that team, I am willing to call that one of the top 5 coaching jobs I have seen in my 30+ years of basketball fanaticism. Not at MU. Anywhere. But it comes down to this. I believe that Buzz's coaching developed Lazar, JB, and DJO into NBA players. You don't. Neither is going to change the other's mind.
But you and I had the same argument when you were posting as MU84. You felt the job Crean did in MU's first season in the BEast with the 3 freshmen Amigos was better. I acknowledge it was good. I just think 09-10 was one of the great coaching jobs ever. Our positions haven't changed, just one of our handles.
Agree on all fronts.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 08, 2012, 05:19:44 PM
You specialize in making technically true but intentionally misleading statements to bolster your weak argument. Jimmy wasn't a 1st team, 2nd team or even 3rd team juco AA. So he wasn't in the top 30. He was Honorable Mention - the next 30. Please give me the long list of Jucos who don't make the 1st, 2nd or 3rd team who make the NBA. Thanks in advance. He was a good player off the bench his first year with a very high offensive efficiency rating, but a great deal of his "efficiency" stemmed from the fact the most of his touches were offensive rebounds/putback no footers. Those are the truths behind your intentionally misleading "facts".
Ironic that you accuse me of what you're doing. Your statements are correct, but intentionally misleading, and once again, you're using them to talk down Jimmy's talent, ability, and now growth as a player betwen 2007 and 2010.
Bottom line is this. Before the 2010 season started, we both placed our bets on what type of player Jimmy Butler would be.
--You looked at his "#81 in Texas", didn't think much of JUCO play, and thought he was a garbage player a Marquette--then concluded he'd suck and the team would suck.
--I looked at his outstanding play for a good JUCO, strong performance in 2010 even just to get minutes behind Hayward and Matthews, not to mention strong inside play against BE defenses, and believed he was a special player that would keep the team performing at a high level.
You're now just holding a grudge because you were wrong.
Quote from: The Equalizer on June 09, 2012, 08:14:16 AM
Bottom line is this. Before the 2010 season started, we both placed our bets on what type of player Jimmy Butler would be.
--You looked at his "#81 in Texas", didn't think much of JUCO play, and thought he was a garbage player a Marquette--then concluded he'd suck and the team would suck.
--I looked at his outstanding play for a good JUCO, strong performance in 2010 even just to get minutes behind Hayward and Matthews, not to mention strong inside play against BE defenses, and believed he was a special player that would keep the team performing at a high level.
You're now just holding a grudge because you were wrong.
I have to say I am completely lost here -- are you argueing about actual predictions - or - hypothetical predictions after the fact. Additionally how does this fit with the OP topic??
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on June 09, 2012, 08:21:05 AM
I have to say I am completely lost here -- are you argueing about actual predictions - or - hypothetical predictions after the fact. Additionally how does this fit with the OP topic??
84 is arguing purely for the sake of arguing and also to demonstrate is intellect. He's doing admirably on both counts.
Quote from: tower912 on June 08, 2012, 06:33:38 PM
We disagree. You choose to see what they became. I am of the opinion they became that through what Buzz did. You say that any topnotch coach could have accomplished the same with that team. I disagree. Please cite the last coach to have th 341st tallest team in the country, playing 6 deep, take a team to the tourney. The number of one posession games that team won down the stretch when many were ready to give up in February after the loss to DePaul. Looking back at that team, I am willing to call that one of the top 5 coaching jobs I have seen in my 30+ years of basketball fanaticism. Not at MU. Anywhere. But it comes down to this. I believe that Buzz's coaching developed Lazar, JB, and DJO into NBA players. You don't. Neither is going to change the other's mind.
You're twisting the argument. I'm saying that Butler, Hayward and DJO would have developed into NBA players wth any any top notch coach.
They were talented, special players, and saying that we had no talent on that team was wrong.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on June 08, 2012, 04:51:59 PM
As I read it, I don't think that he's saying that Buzz didn't do a great job. I think he's saying that the people who say, "the cupboard was bare" are insulting some very good players who were on the team. It's not an insult to Buzz to say that that team turned out to be more talented than a lot of people realized at the time.
+1
It all comes down to the same people here. Those that appreciate what all of MU's coaches have done over the years in their development of players and the program, and those that hate Crean and get all bent when they think any slight has been put toward Buzz (which in this case there is none at all).
I dream of a world where MU fans were less hypocritical but it isn't coming any time soon. 1500+ days
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on June 09, 2012, 08:21:05 AM
I have to say I am completely lost here -- are you argueing about actual predictions - or - hypothetical predictions after the fact. Additionally how does this fit with the OP topic??
A little history for you.
Before the 2009-10 season started, Lenny (and others) thought we would suck because we had no talent.
I thought we'd be a good team because I thought (among other reasons) that Butler was a star at the JUCO level, and showed signs of being a special player in his 2008-2009 season at Marquette.
We all know how 2010 turned out. We all know what Butler contributed to that 2010 season.
Rather than just admit he misjudged on Butler, he's still trying to convince people that Butler had little talent or ability--and was no better than the #81 player in Texas.
As far as relevance to the topic, I believe that any player who eventually makes the NBA had a high level of raw talent, internal determination, desire and drive--and that any of the coaches listed in this thread would be capable of coaching that player to his fullest potential.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 08, 2012, 05:19:44 PM
You specialize in making technically true but intentionally misleading statements to bolster your weak argument. Jimmy wasn't a 1st team, 2nd team or even 3rd team juco AA. So he wasn't in the top 30. He was Honorable Mention - the next 30. Please give me the long list of Jucos who don't make the 1st, 2nd or 3rd team who make the NBA. Thanks in advance. He was a good player off the bench his first year with a very high offensive efficiency rating, but a great deal of his "efficiency" stemmed from the fact the most of his touches were offensive rebounds/putback no footers. Those are the truths behind your intentionally misleading "facts".
Statements are true but misleading? ::)
He is using facts to then formulate his opinions. You don't like that he is using facts and say they are misleading statements, when in fact they are just opinions with which you disagree. There is a difference.
I don't have a long list, wouldn't even know where to find a list but some NJCAA All American Honorable Mention players have made the NBA.
Jean Felix
Quote from: The Equalizer on June 09, 2012, 08:41:04 AM
You're twisting the argument. I'm saying that Butler, Hayward and DJO would have developed into NBA players wth any any top notch coach.
They were talented, special players, and saying that we had no talent on that team was wrong.
I am agreeing that they are talented players. I am disagreeing that 'any' topnotch coach could have as successful a season with that combination of talent. I am disagreeing in that I believe that Buzz helped them maximize their abilities, particularly in the context of that team, more than many, perhaps even most, but not all, topnotch coaches. Yes they were talented. Buzz still got to the tourney with a team that was 5'7, 6' (as if), 6'1, 6'4 3/4, 6'6. Please, for my, and everybody else's education, list another team that small with comparable achievements in a high major conference. I freely acknowledge that Lazar, Jimmy, and DJO are very good players. Where we disagree is that I believe that Buzz got more from them than other coaches would have.
Please stop feeding the trolls Lenny and Tower...we all know from the past their agenda and nothing any of us post is going to change their agenda. A true waste of time to engage in a debate with them.
Quote from: tower912 on June 09, 2012, 09:03:31 AM
I am agreeing that they are talented players. I am disagreeing that 'any' topnotch coach could have as successful a season with that combination of talent. I am disagreeing in that I believe that Buzz helped them maximize their abilities, particularly in the context of that team, more than many, perhaps even most, but not all, topnotch coaches. Yes they were talented. Buzz still got to the tourney with a team that was 5'7, 6' (as if), 6'1, 6'4 3/4, 6'6. Please, for my, and everybody else's education, list another team that small with comparable achievements in a high major conference. I freely acknowledge that Lazar, Jimmy, and DJO are very good players. Where we disagree is that I believe that Buzz got more from them than other coaches would have.
Why do you disagree with something I didn't argue?
My whole argument here is that Buzz didn't have the proverbial empty cupboard. He had some VERY good players--future NBA players in fact. And some of the other role players were also very good--among the best MU history in certain statistical categories.
That was it. It seems like you agree with that, but don't want to actually be perceived of agreeing with me.
As far as your height argument--since you brought it up I'd like to ask you this: In 2011 our height improved from 341st to 104th. Would you consider it a poorer coaching job that we only finished tied for 9th in the BE after finising tied for 5th the year before with that much shorter team?
The memory of how much fun this could be had started to fade. The non-answer answer, the re-direct, the accusation, the twist, the denial of the twist and the counter accusation of twist. Good times......
Quote from: The Equalizer on June 09, 2012, 08:51:18 AM
A little history for you.
Before the 2009-10 season started, Lenny (and others) thought we would suck because we had no talent.
I thought we'd be a good team because I thought (among other reasons) that Butler was a star at the JUCO level, and showed signs of being a special player in his 2008-2009 season at Marquette.
We all know how 2010 turned out. We all know what Butler contributed to that 2010 season.
Rather than just admit he misjudged on Butler, he's still trying to convince people that Butler had little talent or ability--and was no better than the #81 player in Texas.
As far as relevance to the topic, I believe that any player who eventually makes the NBA had a high level of raw talent, internal determination, desire and drive--and that any of the coaches listed in this thread would be capable of coaching that player to his fullest potential.
Thanks for the background. I personally think Buzz does not have a directive to recruit only Milwaukee. Good luck resolving that dispute from 2009!
Quote from: CTWarrior on June 06, 2012, 04:06:34 PM
I would argue that bringing in local kids would increase the likelihood of off-the-court issues, as various and sundry local friends and hangers-on who don't end up in college are more likely to lead a local kid astray. I think the benefits of recruiting local kids (increased local fan base, top dog for talent in a big city, local goodwill, etc.) far outweigh any negatives, but I don't think this will decrease likelihood of trouble/bad public press at all.
completely agree, plus some of these guys may not have shown the level of talent until pushed. the level of talent they face over all locally drops off pretty good. so when they get to college/junior college and are pushed to their limits day in and day out, their true talent is put on display and they shine a little more. plus the maturation thing kicks in.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on June 09, 2012, 12:58:30 PM
Thanks for the background. I personally think Buzz does not have a directive to recruit only Milwaukee. Good luck resolving that dispute from 2009!
This. There hasn't been this kind of talent coming out of Milwaukee in a very long time. It's not a directive, it's just opportunistic recruiting. We happened to find three very talented players from the area, and they're excited to play for their hometown school. There are definitely many advantages to being able to bring in a good portion of this local talent explosion; I wouldn't want to lose the ability to recruit nationally but I have no reason to believe the two are mutually exclusive.
And for the last page-plus of rambling, haven't seen an argument about absolutely nothing on here for awhile, how very refreshing. ::)
Quote from: The Equalizer on June 09, 2012, 08:41:04 AM
You're twisting the argument. I'm saying that Butler, Hayward and DJO would have developed into NBA players wth any any top notch coach.
They were talented, special players, and saying that we had no talent on that team was wrong.
Would Wes have developed with
any coach?
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on June 09, 2012, 12:58:30 PM
Thanks for the background. I personally think Buzz does not have a directive to recruit only Milwaukee. Good luck resolving that dispute from 2009!
+2
Seems like a silly, circular argument. It amazes me how many of those 84 finds himself in.
Quote from: Lighthouse 84 on June 10, 2012, 12:17:44 PM
Would Wes have developed with any coach?
Not
any coach. But
any of the coaches listed in this thread? Absolutely! In fact, I think every coach listed in this thread has already had multiple players reach the NBA. Therefore, its silly to suggest that Buzz is the only coach that could possibly done it.
I know the argument that people are setting up is that Crean couldn't have coached that type of improvement during Matthews' senior year--only Buzz could have coached that type of improvment. Which works only until we find that Steve Novak showed similar senior-year improvement ahead of the NBA draft. Or Travis Diener, who showed a similar jump during his junior year.
BTW, I have no dobut that Buzz could have coached Steve or Travis to the NBA as well.
For some reason, people take it as an insult to Buzz that I would dare to think other coaches might be able to develop players, and that the players themselves have to have some underlying talent, drive and desire and are as much responsiblie as their coach.