Could Milwaukee Recruiting be a top-down directive?

[Tugg Speedman]

 ... and today Buzz is tight with both Ty Taylor and his family.  Ty came to see MU play against Duke two years ago in Kansas City and Ty parents went to see MU play Seton Hall in New Jersey.

If Ty wanted out four years ago, he probably would not want out today.

It sucks Ty never became a warrior but the motives were ok.  Given the change in head coaches meaning you play for an unproven assistant you do not know or Self at Kansas, which would you pick?

I'm surprised Ty did not follow Crean to IU like Nick Williams.

[Pakuni]

I'm surprised Ty did not follow Crean to IU like Nick Williams.

I'm not.
Self and KU coming off a national championship >>>>>> Crean and IU on probation.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, Buzz was the lead recruiter on Taylor. Or at least Taylor said Buzz is the guy who recruited him. so it's not like they didn't know one another.
Simply a matter of taking a better offer. An 18-year-old guy might like his high school girlfriend just fine, but if Kate Upton comes calling, she's going to be out of the picture mighty fast.

[wadesworld]

It's the luck of the draw on the recruiting front.  SE Wisconsin is experiencing the best level of D1 talent in the history of the area.  Marquette under Buzz has established a signature style of play and the top talent is noticing.  Buzz had to go the JUCO route to band-aid years of inconsistent recruiting, he had to go to the four corners of the country to find overlooked talent.  Now he is beginning to harvest the success of the past four years.  Remember right after Williams was hired when Bob Hurley was saying he wouldn't trust Buzz to coach Tyshawn Taylor?  Now Buzz's name is being mentioned as one of the top five college coaches in the country.

Mike Krzyzewski, Bill Self, Roy Williams, John Calipari, Tom Izzo, Rick Pitino, Jim Boeheim, Bob Huggins, Jom Calhoun,Thad Matta, and Billy Donovan are all better coaches. You can make cases for guys like Brad Stevens, Tom Crean, Sean Miller, Scott Drew, Mark Few, Ben Howland, Jay Wright, Jamie Dixon, Frank Martin, John Thompson III, Mike Brey, Bo Ryan, and John Beihlein as well. I love Buzz as much as the next, but let's not go overboard. He is nowhere near a top 5 coach right now. Not top 10, either. Top 5 up and coming coach? I can definitely agree to that. He has an NCAA Tournament record of 5-4 and his best finish is the Sweet 16. Not bad, but top 5 coaches? No. Might not even be top 5 currently in the Big East.

Your point on going to JUCOs in his first few years as a band-aid is also wrong. Maybe the first year that's what it was with Butler, but he is still signing JUCOs. He signs them because they are very talented players who work hard for their success.

[NersEllenson]

Mike Krzyzewski, Bill Self, Roy Williams, John Calipari, Tom Izzo, Rick Pitino, Jim Boeheim, Bob Huggins, Jom Calhoun,Thad Matta, and Billy Donovan are all better coaches. You can make cases for guys like Brad Stevens, Tom Crean, Sean Miller, Scott Drew, Mark Few, Ben Howland, Jay Wright, Jamie Dixon, Frank Martin, John Thompson III, Mike Brey, Bo Ryan, and John Beihlein as well. I love Buzz as much as the next, but let's not go overboard. He is nowhere near a top 5 coach right now. Not top 10, either. Top 5 up and coming coach? I can definitely agree to that. He has an NCAA Tournament record of 5-4 and his best finish is the Sweet 16. Not bad, but top 5 coaches? No. Might not even be top 5 currently in the Big East.

Your point on going to JUCOs in his first few years as a band-aid is also wrong. Maybe the first year that's what it was with Butler, but he is still signing JUCOs. He signs them because they are very talented players who work hard for their success.

In terms of length of established success, no, Buzz cannot compare to Boheim, Calhoun, Pitino,  Huggins, and many of the others you name - but Buzz has fared quite well head to head against those guys, and really, he didn't have a full deck of cards to play with his 2nd year here.  Personally, I wouldn't take any of the above guys over Buzz - and I sure as hell would choose Buzz over Brey, Beilien, Drew, Stevens, Howland, Wright, JT III, Frank Martin, Bo Ryan, and yes Tom Crean...as all indications are the Buzz will have sustained year in, year out success.  Sean Miller and Jamie Dixon are probably on a similar level as Buzz.

Of those you name, I think an argument could be made for Coach K, Self, Roy Williams, Calipari, Izzo, - as to who you can definitively rank ahead of Buzz.  Would you trade Buzz for any of those on your list?

[Lennys Tap]

Of those you name, I think an argument could be made for Coach K, Self, Roy Williams, Calipari, Izzo, - as to who you can definitively rank ahead of Buzz.  Would you trade Buzz for any of those on your list?

You hit the nail on the head - it means absolutely nothing where Buzz stands "historically" versus the guys Wadesworld mentions. It's who would you trade him for right now if you're Marquette? For me that's a very short list.

[PJDunn]

The list of coaches that I would take over Buzz is pretty short.  Mark Few comes to mind, and I do think that Tony Bennett is a helluva coach.  He would certainly thrive in Milwaukee.

[wadesworld]

In terms of length of established success, no, Buzz cannot compare to Boheim, Calhoun, Pitino,  Huggins, and many of the others you name - but Buzz has fared quite well head to head against those guys, and really, he didn't have a full deck of cards to play with his 2nd year here.  Personally, I wouldn't take any of the above guys over Buzz - and I sure as hell would choose Buzz over Brey, Beilien, Drew, Stevens, Howland, Wright, JT III, Frank Martin, Bo Ryan, and yes Tom Crean...as all indications are the Buzz will have sustained year in, year out success.  Sean Miller and Jamie Dixon are probably on a similar level as Buzz.

Of those you name, I think an argument could be made for Coach K, Self, Roy Williams, Calipari, Izzo, - as to who you can definitively rank ahead of Buzz.  Would you trade Buzz for any of those on your list?

I would consider Brad Stevens. The guy can COACH. Wonder what he could do with the budget and conference Marquette is in. I like Wright and JT3 a lot. Pretty much every one of the listed guys have been to a Final Four in the past decade. I'm not ready to claim Buzz is a top 5 coach when the total amount of NCAA wins in his coaching career would equal making it to an NCAA Title game in one season.

The post I originally quoted said that Buzz is now being talked about as a top 5 coach. Outside of biased Marquette forums, I have never seen anything close to that. Top 5 up and coming I have and agree with. Top 5 coaches in the NCAA no way.

Coaches I would absolutely take over Buzz without hesitation would be K, Roy, Izzo, Calipari, Donovan, and Matta. Probably would take Stevens. Would consider Dixon, Wright, Miller, Few, and JT3. I would consider Huggins, Calhoun, Boeheim, and Pitino better coaches but would not want them coaching Marquette.

[NersEllenson]

The list of coaches that I would take over Buzz is pretty short.  Mark Few comes to mind, and I do think that Tony Bennett is a helluva coach.  He would certainly thrive in Milwaukee.

Somehow I just don't find Few or Bennett even close to Buzz in terms of the whole package - recruiting, coaching, and personality.  Few strikes me as uber boring.  Bennett - well, the guy hasn't exactly lit it up at Virginia in his 2 or 3 years there.  Don't doubt Bennett being a good X's and O's guy, but not sure he has the cache/panache Buzz does.

[CTWarrior]

A little Connecticut pride here.  Calhoun is 70 or close to it so I would rather have Buzz now, but Buzz is not near his equal.  Look at Northeastern pre-Calhoun era, Calhoun era and post Calhoun era some time.  UConn was nowhere before Calhoun arrived.  A fixture in the 8-9 game in the old 9 team Big East.  They had no sustained success for decades, played their non-con games in a more than half-empty 4,500 seat on-campus fieldhouse and their Big East games in Hartford that often had more fans of the opposing team.  You wouldn't believe what a big deal it was when they made their first NIT under him.  He turned that situation into a powerhouse with 3 national championships.  If you told somebody when they hired Calhoun that he'd coach them to 1 Big East championship before he retired nobody would have believed it, let alone 3 national championships.

There is no way you can call Buzz a top 5 coach in any logical discussion.  The weird thing is, though, if I could have any NCAA coach at Marquette right now, there might not be 5 guys I'd definitely rather have.  I can only think of 3 for absolute sure.  Coach K (and even he is quite old), Calipari and Pitino would be tremendously successful at MU or anywhere, but would Roy Williams be able to recruit to Marquette?  We're not Kansas or UNC, that's for sure.  Would Izzo?  Suffice it to say that I'm quite happy with the guy we got.

[GGGG]

Coaches I would rather have than Buzz over the next ten years:  Izzo and Self for sure.  (Coach K is too old....Calipari and Pitino I want no part of)  Donovan and Matta would be in the discussion.

But that's it.

[The Equalizer]

In terms of length of established success, no, Buzz cannot compare to Boheim, Calhoun, Pitino,  Huggins, and many of the others you name - but Buzz has fared quite well head to head against those guys, and really, he didn't have a full deck of cards to play with his 2nd year here.  Personally, I wouldn't take any of the above guys over Buzz - and I sure as hell would choose Buzz over Brey, Beilien, Drew, Stevens, Howland, Wright, JT III, Frank Martin, Bo Ryan, and yes Tom Crean...as all indications are the Buzz will have sustained year in, year out success.  Sean Miller and Jamie Dixon are probably on a similar level as Buzz.

Not true.  He had two--and likely three--future NBA players on that team--Hayward, Butler, and DJO.  A  fourth in the NBA-DevLeague (Buycks).  And an outside shot at a fifth if Otule continues to improve.

He also had Acker, who is MU's all-time Senior 3 point % shooter, and Cadougan--who is 7th all-time.

It's true that some people didn't think we had much talent going into the year. They were wrong.

It's amazing that 2 or 3 years later, people are still perpetrating the "lack of talent" myth rather than just admit that they simply didn't see it.

Personally, I wouldn't take any of the above guys over Buzz - and I sure as hell would choose Buzz over Brey, Beilien, Drew, Stevens, Howland, Wright, JT III, Frank Martin, Bo Ryan, and yes Tom Crean...as all indications are the Buzz will have sustained year in, year out success.  Sean Miller and Jamie Dixon are probably on a similar level as Buzz.

Don't understimate Brey.  He actually has achieved the success with undertated players.  Buzz has always had highly rated players on the roster--granted they're from the JUCO ranks, but he's relied on JUCO AAs--who are equivalent to top 40 HS players.  I'm not sure Brey has ever had a top 40 player--and he still manages to typically put Notre Dame in contention for a top half finish in the Big East.  

I'd probably take Drew over Buzz--he's turnd Baylor--a "never was" program with more serious baggage and geographic challenges than virtually any program in the contry--to a level that is arguably above where Marquette currently is at.  

Miller has had sustained sucess at Xavier, and is turning the basket case of Arizona around.  I'd take him in a heartbeat.

And Stevens has two final fours.  You've got to respect that.

Agree on Howland (no disciplne) Ryan (too old) Wright (too inconsisent) Beilein (too boring)

I see Martin, Buzz, Crean, and Dixon as a wash.

[Hoopaloop]

Of those you name, I think an argument could be made for Coach K, Self, Roy Williams, Calipari, Izzo, - as to who you can definitively rank ahead of Buzz.  Would you trade Buzz for any of those on your list?

An argument can be made?   You think?

[GGGG]

I'd probably take Drew over Buzz--he's turnd Baylor--a "never was" program with more serious baggage and geographic challenges than virtually any program in the contry--to a level that is arguably above where Marquette currently is at. 

First off, I think Buzz is a much better game coach than Drew.

Second, let's see what happens to Baylor over the next decade or so.  Let's just say that I am skeptical that his success is on the up-and-up.

[Lennys Tap]

Not true.  He had two--and likely three--future NBA players on that team--Hayward, Butler, and DJO.  A  fourth in the NBA-DevLeague (Buycks).  And an outside shot at a fifth if Otule continues to improve.

He also had Acker, who is MU's all-time Senior 3 point % shooter, and Cadougan--who is 7th all-time.


It's amazing that 2 or 3 years later, people are still perpetrating the "lack of talent" myth rather than just admit that they simply didn't see it.


 

Marquette was the 341st ranked teams in terms of height that year. Lazar was a borderline top 100 player out of prep school. DJO was in the 150-200 range. Cubillan and Acker were not in the top 200 and Jimmy was rated #82 - in the state of Texas! Except for Acker subbing for an injured DJ in a few games, Hayward was the only player to have started a Big East game. Incredibly short - check. No physicality - check. Low rankings - check. Inexprienced at the high D1 level - check. Certainly all the qualities one expects in a juggernaut. The whole basketball world thinks Buzz was a miracle worker with that team. Except you. They're right. You're wrong.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Marquette was the 341st ranked teams in terms of height that year. Lazar was a borderline top 100 player out of prep school. DJO was in the 150-200 range. Cubillan and Acker were not in the top 200 and Jimmy was rated #82 - in the state of Texas! Except for Acker subbing for an injured DJ in a few games, Hayward was the only player to have started a Big East game. Incredibly short - check. No physicality - check. Low rankings - check. Inexprienced at the high D1 level - check. Certainly all the qualities one expects in a juggernaut. The whole basketball world thinks Buzz was a miracle worker with that team. Except you. They're right. You're wrong.

Not to mention Buzz completely changed the style of play from the team before and the teams since to maximize every inch of talent on that squad.

[GOO]

Marquette was the 341st ranked teams in terms of height that year. Lazar was a borderline top 100 player out of prep school. DJO was in the 150-200 range. Cubillan and Acker were not in the top 200 and Jimmy was rated #82 - in the state of Texas! Except for Acker subbing for an injured DJ in a few games, Hayward was the only player to have started a Big East game. Incredibly short - check. No physicality - check. Low rankings - check. Inexprienced at the high D1 level - check. Certainly all the qualities one expects in a juggernaut. The whole basketball world thinks Buzz was a miracle worker with that team. Except you. They're right. You're wrong.

Thanks Lennys Tap.  You saved me from having to reply 

[Skatastrophy]

Not to mention Buzz completely changed the style of play from the team before and the teams since to maximize every inch of talent on that squad.

That was what blew my mind.  It was a completely different system in the drop of a hat.  Same thing with this year when DG and Otule went down.

One of Buzz's greatest attributes is that he's agile.  Whatever gets thrown his way he adapts quickly because he's not overly attached to how brilliant his last plan was.  The best plan is the one that works.

[Silkk the Shaka]

That was what blew my mind.  It was a completely different system in the drop of a hat.  Same thing with this year when DG and Otule went down.

One of Buzz's greatest attributes is that he's agile.  Whatever gets thrown his way he adapts quickly because he's not overly attached to how brilliant his last plan was.  The best plan is the one that works.

Definitely one of his best coaching qualities.  It was first seen in the second year, but really driven home this past year like you said.  There was the first style of play with a fully loaded gun, then Otule went down and after a few games the second style clicked featuring Davante.  Then Davante went down and a third uptempo style went on a tear.  We were a dominant well-oiled machine before the injuries, but Buzz has shown the ability to change it up and do well when he needs to get creative.  Fun to watch.

[The Equalizer]

Marquette was the 341st ranked teams in terms of height that year. Lazar was a borderline top 100 player out of prep school. DJO was in the 150-200 range. Cubillan and Acker were not in the top 200 and Jimmy was rated #82 - in the state of Texas! Except for Acker subbing for an injured DJ in a few games, Hayward was the only player to have started a Big East game. Incredibly short - check. No physicality - check. Low rankings - check. Inexprienced at the high D1 level - check. Certainly all the qualities one expects in a juggernaut. The whole basketball world thinks Buzz was a miracle worker with that team. Except you. They're right. You're wrong.

These were all the arguments from BEFORE the 2010 season.

Yet AFTER the season we KNOW how these players turned out.  Two of them have already made the NBA.  A third is likely.  A fourth made the NBA-DL.  A fifth has an outsite shot. To continue to argue that there was no talent on the team in 2010 an exercise from fantasy land.

Worse, it's an insult to Hayward and DJO and Butler for you to say they showed no improvement between those High School rankings you cite and the the 2010 season. Those guys worked DAMN HARD to improve themselves, and only a complete moron would think that they had made no progress. By the fall of 2009, they were each SIGNIFICANTLY better than those oudated HS rankings you stated.

Keep in mind, even Michael Jordan was cut from his HS team.  But I guess a guy like you would say Jordand did nothing to better himself--and it was all on Dean Smith working miracles.

Face it.  You initially thought these guys didn't have that much talent. They proved you wrong. And now, you don't want to give them credit.

[tower912]

They turned out that way because Buzz coached them into it.   Your argument seems to be that there was so much talent there that anybody could have coached it and had it turn out the way it did.    Most of the rest believe that Buzz got the most out of those players and coached them into being NBA ready.   You can continue to make your argument for as long as you want, but nobody buys it.   

[Silkk the Shaka]

These were all the arguments from BEFORE the 2010 season.

Yet AFTER the season we KNOW how these players turned out.  Two of them have already made the NBA.  A third is likely.  A fourth made the NBA-DL.  A fifth has an outsite shot. To continue to argue that there was no talent on the team in 2010 an exercise from fantasy land.

Worse, it's an insult to Hayward and DJO and Butler for you to say they showed no improvement between those High School rankings you cite and the the 2010 season. Those guys worked DAMN HARD to improve themselves, and only a complete moron would think that they had made no progress. By the fall of 2009, they were each SIGNIFICANTLY better than those oudated HS rankings you stated.

Keep in mind, even Michael Jordan was cut from his HS team.  But I guess a guy like you would say Jordand did nothing to better himself--and it was all on Dean Smith working miracles.

Face it.  You initially thought these guys didn't have that much talent. They proved you wrong. And now, you don't want to give them credit.

Man, you are going to great pains as usual to diminish Buzz' accomplishments.  That squad had a really low ceiling, and it was reached.  We were undersized at every position.  The senior starters at the 1 and 2 spots were both under 6' and were very good at two things: three point shooting and not turning the ball over.  That's it.  The 3 spot was manned by 6'1" DJO or 6'2" Buycks, both of whom were new to D1 ball.  DJO was great at catch and shoot that year, but he wasn't the DJO of this past year where he was lethal off the drive, pullup jumper, and beyond the arc.  Jimmy was a great offensive player that year, but not yet the lockdown defender he became by the end of his senior year.  You know, cuz players develop over time and stuff.  Hayward was Hayward, the star of the show one of my favorites to put on an MU uni.  But that doesn't change the fact that he was a 6'4" 3/4 playing center for 36+ mpg.  Yet you want to act like that team wasn't severely limited.  Not even sure how you managed to interject this subject into a thread about a hypothetical Milwaukee recruiting directive, but I'd expect nothing less from Marquette84 I guess.  It's beyond comprehension why you want to spin it the complete opposite, but to each his own.

[Lennys Tap]

These were all the arguments from BEFORE the 2010 season.



Keep in mind, even Michael Jordan was cut from his HS team.  But I guess a guy like you would say Jordand did nothing to better himself--and it was all on Dean Smith working miracles.

A red herring wrapped up in an inaccuracy. Michael Jordan wasn't cut from his high school team, he just didn't immediately make the varsity as a 14 year old sophmore. He played a few JV games before being brought up to the varsity, where he played and starred for 2+ years. He was a McDonald's All American and a star from day one at UNC. Only a complete moron (your words) would compare him or his circumstances entering college to anyone on our 2009-10 team.

[The Equalizer]

They turned out that way because Buzz coached them into it.   Your argument seems to be that there was so much talent there that anybody could have coached it and had it turn out the way it did.    Most of the rest believe that Buzz got the most out of those players and coached them into being NBA ready.   You can continue to make your argument for as long as you want, but nobody buys it.   

Anybody?  No.  Any of the D1 coaches mentioned in this thread?  Absolutely.

Look at the NBA draft over the last four years. Lots of players were drafted and made the league that weren't coached by Buzz Williams.  Amazing, isn't in?  Listening to you, only Buzz Williams could coach a player into the NBA draft.  Yet some of the 240 players drafted over the last 4 years weren't any more highly rated in their junior or senior year in HS than were Butler or Hayward or DJO.

Then take a look at the MU rosters over the last four years. Lots of Buzz Williams coached players that haven't made the NBA.  Hell, some of them didn't even made it to their senior (or even freshman) season at Marquette.  And some of those were rated even higher than Butler or Hayward or DJO.

My Conclusion:  Buzz doesn't have unique or magical skill that can turn any player into an NBA star.

I'm not saying that Buzz doesn't deserve some credit for coaching them.

But let's put this in perspective: these guys had the right combination of raw talent, drive, determination, and desire to succeed.  Buzz got it out of them, but I have no dobut that if they had played for any of the other coaches listed in this thread, these players would have done just as well.

[Lennys Tap]

Don't understimate Brey.  He actually has achieved the success with undertated players.  I'm not sure Brey has ever had a top 40 player--and he still manages to typically put Notre Dame in contention for a top half finish in the Big East.  

So Brey goes to the NIT or the first or second round of the NCAA with players rated out of high school between 50 - 150. I'll agree with you that's pretty good. What would you say about a guy who got a 6 seed in the NCAA tournament without a single starter in the top 100 out of high school?  Only 2 in the top 200? With the smallest team in a BCS conference? And only one guy who had ever started a conference game other than due to injury? You'd call him a guy who coached a team that was loaded. Right.

[The Equalizer]

So Brey goes to the NIT or the first or second round of the NCAA with players rated out of high school between 50 - 150. I'll agree with you that's pretty good. What would you say about a guy who got a 6 seed in the NCAA tournament without a single starter in the top 100 out of high school?  Only 2 in the top 200? With the smallest team in a BCS conference? And only one guy who had ever started a conference game other than due to injury? You'd call him a guy who coached a team that was loaded. Right.

It depends on how many JUCO AAs he had.