Could Milwaukee Recruiting be a top-down directive?

[The Equalizer]

A red herring wrapped up in an inaccuracy. Michael Jordan wasn't cut from his high school team, he just didn't immediately make the varsity as a 14 year old sophmore. He played a few JV games before being brought up to the varsity, where he played and starred for 2+ years. He was a McDonald's All American and a star from day one at UNC. Only a complete moron (your words) would compare him or his circumstances entering college to anyone on our 2009-10 team.
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Thank you for making my point.

Talking down Butler by citing his "#81 rank in Texas" going into MU's 2010 season is inaccurate as talking down Jordan by saying "he was cut from his HS team" going into the NBA draft.   

One hell of a lot happened in between for both players.

I'm glad you recognize it with Jordan.  Too bad you don't with Butler, Hayward or DJO.

[Lennys Tap]

Thank you for making my point.

Talking down Butler by citing his "#81 rank in Texas" going into MU's 2010 season is inaccurate as talking down Jordan by saying "he was cut from his HS team" going into the NBA draft.   

Comparing Butler's being ranked 82nd in Texas after his high school career to a guy playing a couple of games on the JVs as a sophmore in high school is asinine. It does nothing to prove your point. You have no point that can be proven.

According to polls, more than 15% of the people in this country think George Bush personally brought down the towers. They are outliers, and it's fruitless to try to reason with them. In that spirit, I'll stop trying to reason with you.

[The Equalizer]

According to polls, more than 15% of the people in this country think George Bush personally brought down the towers. They are outliers, and it's fruitless to try to reason with them. In that spirit, I'll stop trying to reason with you.

Here's what is asinine:

Knowing that Jimmy Butler was a 2008 JUCO All American and in 2009 he played 20 mpg for MU and earned the #1 Offense Rating in the Big East, continuing to argue that on the eve of the 2010 season we should judge Jimmy Butler solely on the basis of a 2007 Texas HS ranking.

But maybe you have good reason to ignore the 2008 and 2009 performance.

Here's my use of reason: Butler's 2008 JUCO AA and 2009 #1 Big East O-Rating are far better indicators of his potential than the 2007 HS rank you cite.  They're better because they are more recent and therfore reflect all the development that took palce between your beloved 2007 ranking and the 2010 season.

Because you ignored two years of more recent performance data and relied on outdated 3-year old estimates of Butler's ability, you vastly underestimated what Butler was capable of. 

Because I used the most recent data--including his 2008 and 2009 performance--my prediction was on the mark.

Reasonable enough for you?

[Silkk the Shaka]

Equalizer, honest question: what are you attempting to get from this?  Why are you going to painstaking lengths grasping at straws to say Buzz didn't do a great coaching job in 2010?  Or is that even what you're saying?  I'm confused.  Please help.

[StillAWarrior]

Equalizer, honest question: what are you attempting to get from this?  Why are you going to painstaking lengths grasping at straws to say Buzz didn't do a great coaching job in 2010?  Or is that even what you're saying?  I'm confused.  Please help.

As I read it, I don't think that he's saying that Buzz didn't do a great job.  I think he's saying that the people who say, "the cupboard was bare" are insulting some very good players who were on the team.  It's not an insult to Buzz to say that that team turned out to be more talented than a lot of people realized at the time.

[The Equalizer]

Equalizer, honest question: what are you attempting to get from this?  Why are you going to painstaking lengths grasping at straws to say Buzz didn't do a great coaching job in 2010?  Or is that even what you're saying?  I'm confused.  Please help.

He did a fine coaching job in 2010.

I just don't understand the constant need of some here to constantly talk down our players.

Lenny will run from this debate--like he always does--becuase he has no good answer as to why he characterizes Butler as the #81 HS player in Texas instead of the fast rising JUCO All-American from Tyler JC.  

Its funny, because Buzz deserves a lot of credit for landing a great player over competition from Iowa State Clemson, Mississippi State and Kentucky--after only a couple of weeks on the job.

But it doesn't fit the narrative that poor ol Buzz in the lurch with nobody on the roster.

[Lennys Tap]

Here's what is asinine:

Knowing that Jimmy Butler was a 2008 JUCO All American and in 2009 he played 20 mpg for MU and earned the #1 Offense Rating in the Big East, continuing to argue that on the eve of the 2010 season we should judge Jimmy Butler solely on the basis of a 2007 Texas HS ranking.

But maybe you have good reason to ignore the 2008 and 2009 performance.

Here's my use of reason: Butler's 2008 JUCO AA and 2009 #1 Big East O-Rating are far better indicators of his potential than the 2007 HS rank you cite.  They're better because they are more recent and therfore reflect all the development that took palce between your beloved 2007 ranking and the 2010 season.

Because you ignored two years of more recent performance data and relied on outdated 3-year old estimates of Butler's ability, you vastly underestimated what Butler was capable of.  

Because I used the most recent data--including his 2008 and 2009 performance--my prediction was on the mark.

Reasonable enough for you?

You specialize in making technically true but intentionally misleading statements to bolster your weak argument. Jimmy wasn't a 1st team, 2nd team or even 3rd team juco AA. So he wasn't in the top 30. He was Honorable Mention - the next 30. Please give me the long list of Jucos who don't make the 1st, 2nd or 3rd team who make the NBA. Thanks in advance. He was a good player off the bench his first year with a very high offensive efficiency rating, but a great deal of his "efficiency" stemmed from the fact the most of his touches were offensive rebounds/putback no footers. Those are the truths behind your intentionally misleading "facts".

[tower912]

Anybody?  No.  Any of the D1 coaches mentioned in this thread?  Absolutely.

Look at the NBA draft over the last four years. Lots of players were drafted and made the league that weren't coached by Buzz Williams.  Amazing, isn't in?  Listening to you, only Buzz Williams could coach a player into the NBA draft.  Yet some of the 240 players drafted over the last 4 years weren't any more highly rated in their junior or senior year in HS than were Butler or Hayward or DJO.

Then take a look at the MU rosters over the last four years. Lots of Buzz Williams coached players that haven't made the NBA.  Hell, some of them didn't even made it to their senior (or even freshman) season at Marquette.  And some of those were rated even higher than Butler or Hayward or DJO.

My Conclusion:  Buzz doesn't have unique or magical skill that can turn any player into an NBA star.

I'm not saying that Buzz doesn't deserve some credit for coaching them.

But let's put this in perspective: these guys had the right combination of raw talent, drive, determination, and desire to succeed.  Buzz got it out of them, but I have no dobut that if they had played for any of the other coaches listed in this thread, these players would have done just as well.

We disagree.   You choose to see what they became.   I am of the opinion they became that through what Buzz did.   You say that any topnotch coach could have accomplished the same with that team.   I disagree.   Please cite the last coach to have th 341st tallest team in the country, playing 6 deep,  take a team to the tourney.   The number of one posession games that team won down the stretch when many were ready to give up in February after the loss to DePaul.   Looking back at that team, I am willing to call that one of the top 5 coaching jobs I have seen in my 30+ years of basketball fanaticism.   Not at MU.   Anywhere.       But it comes down to this.   I believe that Buzz's coaching developed Lazar, JB, and DJO into NBA players.   You don't.    Neither is going to change the other's mind.  
      But you and I had the same argument when you were posting as MU84.   You felt the job Crean did in MU's first season in the BEast with the 3 freshmen Amigos was better.    I acknowledge it was good.   I just think 09-10 was one of the great coaching jobs ever.     Our positions haven't changed, just one of our handles.   

[Lennys Tap]

We disagree.   You choose to see what they became.   I am of the opinion they became that through what Buzz did.   You say that any topnotch coach could have accomplished the same with that team.   I disagree.   Please cite the last coach to have th 341st tallest team in the country, playing 6 deep,  take a team to the tourney.   The number of one posession games that team won down the stretch when many were ready to give up in February after the loss to DePaul.   Looking back at that team, I am willing to call that one of the top 5 coaching jobs I have seen in my 30+ years of basketball fanaticism.   Not at MU.   Anywhere.       But it comes down to this.   I believe that Buzz's coaching developed Lazar, JB, and DJO into NBA players.   You don't.    Neither is going to change the other's mind.  
      But you and I had the same argument when you were posting as MU84.   You felt the job Crean did in MU's first season in the BEast with the 3 freshmen Amigos was better.    I acknowledge it was good.   I just think 09-10 was one of the great coaching jobs ever.     Our positions haven't changed, just one of our handles.   

Agree on all fronts.

[The Equalizer]

You specialize in making technically true but intentionally misleading statements to bolster your weak argument. Jimmy wasn't a 1st team, 2nd team or even 3rd team juco AA. So he wasn't in the top 30. He was Honorable Mention - the next 30. Please give me the long list of Jucos who don't make the 1st, 2nd or 3rd team who make the NBA. Thanks in advance. He was a good player off the bench his first year with a very high offensive efficiency rating, but a great deal of his "efficiency" stemmed from the fact the most of his touches were offensive rebounds/putback no footers. Those are the truths behind your intentionally misleading "facts".

Ironic that you accuse me of what you're doing.  Your statements are correct, but intentionally misleading, and once again, you're using them to talk down Jimmy's talent, ability, and now growth as a player betwen 2007 and 2010.

Bottom line is this.  Before the 2010 season started, we both placed our bets on what type of player Jimmy Butler would be.

--You looked at his "#81 in Texas", didn't think much of JUCO play, and thought he was a garbage player a Marquette--then concluded he'd suck and the team would suck.

--I looked at his outstanding play for a good JUCO, strong performance in 2010 even just to get minutes behind Hayward and Matthews, not to mention strong inside play against BE defenses, and believed he was a special player that would keep the team performing at a high level.

You're now just holding a grudge because you were wrong.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Bottom line is this.  Before the 2010 season started, we both placed our bets on what type of player Jimmy Butler would be.

--You looked at his "#81 in Texas", didn't think much of JUCO play, and thought he was a garbage player a Marquette--then concluded he'd suck and the team would suck.

--I looked at his outstanding play for a good JUCO, strong performance in 2010 even just to get minutes behind Hayward and Matthews, not to mention strong inside play against BE defenses, and believed he was a special player that would keep the team performing at a high level.

You're now just holding a grudge because you were wrong.

I have to say I am completely lost here -- are you argueing about actual predictions - or - hypothetical predictions after the fact.  Additionally how does this fit with the OP topic??

[ATL MU Warrior]

I have to say I am completely lost here -- are you argueing about actual predictions - or - hypothetical predictions after the fact.  Additionally how does this fit with the OP topic??

84 is arguing purely for the sake of arguing and also to demonstrate is intellect.  He's doing admirably on both counts.

[The Equalizer]

We disagree.   You choose to see what they became.   I am of the opinion they became that through what Buzz did.   You say that any topnotch coach could have accomplished the same with that team.   I disagree.   Please cite the last coach to have th 341st tallest team in the country, playing 6 deep,  take a team to the tourney.   The number of one posession games that team won down the stretch when many were ready to give up in February after the loss to DePaul.   Looking back at that team, I am willing to call that one of the top 5 coaching jobs I have seen in my 30+ years of basketball fanaticism.   Not at MU.   Anywhere.       But it comes down to this.   I believe that Buzz's coaching developed Lazar, JB, and DJO into NBA players.   You don't.    Neither is going to change the other's mind.  
     

You're twisting the argument.  I'm saying that Butler, Hayward and DJO would have developed into NBA players wth any any top notch coach.  

They were talented, special players, and saying that we had no talent on that team was wrong.

[Hoopaloop]

As I read it, I don't think that he's saying that Buzz didn't do a great job.  I think he's saying that the people who say, "the cupboard was bare" are insulting some very good players who were on the team.  It's not an insult to Buzz to say that that team turned out to be more talented than a lot of people realized at the time.

+1

It all comes down to the same people here.  Those that appreciate what all of MU's coaches have done over the years in their development of players and the program, and those that hate Crean and get all bent when they think any slight has been put toward Buzz (which in this case there is none at all). 

I dream of a world where MU fans were less hypocritical but it isn't coming any time soon.  1500+ days

[The Equalizer]

I have to say I am completely lost here -- are you argueing about actual predictions - or - hypothetical predictions after the fact.  Additionally how does this fit with the OP topic??

A little history for you.  

Before the 2009-10 season started, Lenny (and others) thought we would suck because we had no talent.  

I thought we'd be a good team because I thought (among other reasons) that Butler was a star at the JUCO level, and showed signs of being a special player in his 2008-2009 season at Marquette.

We all know how 2010 turned out.  We all know what Butler contributed to that 2010 season.

Rather than just admit he misjudged on Butler, he's still trying to convince people that Butler had little talent or ability--and was no better than the #81 player in Texas.

As far as relevance to the topic, I believe that any player who eventually makes the NBA had a high level of raw talent, internal determination, desire and drive--and that any of the coaches listed in this thread would be capable of coaching that player to his fullest potential.

[Hoopaloop]

You specialize in making technically true but intentionally misleading statements to bolster your weak argument. Jimmy wasn't a 1st team, 2nd team or even 3rd team juco AA. So he wasn't in the top 30. He was Honorable Mention - the next 30. Please give me the long list of Jucos who don't make the 1st, 2nd or 3rd team who make the NBA. Thanks in advance. He was a good player off the bench his first year with a very high offensive efficiency rating, but a great deal of his "efficiency" stemmed from the fact the most of his touches were offensive rebounds/putback no footers. Those are the truths behind your intentionally misleading "facts".

Statements are true but misleading?  

He is using facts to then formulate his opinions.  You don't like that he is using facts and say they are misleading statements, when in fact they are just opinions with which you disagree.  There is a difference.



I don't have a long list, wouldn't even know where to find a list but some NJCAA All American Honorable Mention players have made the NBA.

Jean Felix

[tower912]

You're twisting the argument.  I'm saying that Butler, Hayward and DJO would have developed into NBA players wth any any top notch coach.  

They were talented, special players, and saying that we had no talent on that team was wrong.

I am agreeing that they are talented players.   I am disagreeing that 'any' topnotch coach could have as successful a season with that combination of talent.   I am disagreeing in that I believe that Buzz helped them maximize their abilities, particularly in the context of that team, more than many,  perhaps even most, but not all, topnotch coaches.     Yes they were talented.   Buzz still got to the tourney with a team that was 5'7, 6' (as if), 6'1, 6'4 3/4, 6'6.     Please, for my, and everybody else's education, list another team that small with comparable achievements in a high major conference.    I freely acknowledge that Lazar, Jimmy, and DJO are very good players.   Where we disagree is that I believe that Buzz got more from them than other coaches would have.   

[NersEllenson]

Please stop feeding the trolls Lenny and Tower...we all know from the past their agenda and nothing any of us post is going to change their agenda.  A true waste of time to engage in a debate with them.

[The Equalizer]

I am agreeing that they are talented players.   I am disagreeing that 'any' topnotch coach could have as successful a season with that combination of talent.   I am disagreeing in that I believe that Buzz helped them maximize their abilities, particularly in the context of that team, more than many,  perhaps even most, but not all, topnotch coaches.     Yes they were talented.   Buzz still got to the tourney with a team that was 5'7, 6' (as if), 6'1, 6'4 3/4, 6'6.     Please, for my, and everybody else's education, list another team that small with comparable achievements in a high major conference.    I freely acknowledge that Lazar, Jimmy, and DJO are very good players.   Where we disagree is that I believe that Buzz got more from them than other coaches would have.   

Why do you disagree with something I didn't argue?

My whole argument here is that Buzz didn't have the proverbial empty cupboard.  He had some VERY good players--future NBA players in fact. And some of the other role players were also very good--among the best MU history in certain statistical categories.

That was it.  It seems like you agree with that, but don't want to actually be perceived of agreeing with me.

As far as your height argument--since you brought it up I'd like to ask you this: In 2011 our height improved from 341st to 104th.  Would you consider it a poorer coaching job that we only finished tied for 9th in the BE after finising tied for 5th the year before with that much shorter team?

[tower912]

The memory of how much fun this could be had started to fade.     The non-answer answer, the re-direct, the accusation, the twist, the denial of the twist and the counter accusation of twist.    Good times......

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

A little history for you. 

Before the 2009-10 season started, Lenny (and others) thought we would suck because we had no talent. 

I thought we'd be a good team because I thought (among other reasons) that Butler was a star at the JUCO level, and showed signs of being a special player in his 2008-2009 season at Marquette.

We all know how 2010 turned out.  We all know what Butler contributed to that 2010 season.

Rather than just admit he misjudged on Butler, he's still trying to convince people that Butler had little talent or ability--and was no better than the #81 player in Texas.

As far as relevance to the topic, I believe that any player who eventually makes the NBA had a high level of raw talent, internal determination, desire and drive--and that any of the coaches listed in this thread would be capable of coaching that player to his fullest potential.

Thanks for the background. I personally think Buzz does not have a directive to recruit only Milwaukee.  Good luck resolving that dispute from 2009!

[wyzgy]

I would argue that bringing in local kids would increase the likelihood of off-the-court issues, as various and sundry local friends and hangers-on who don't end up in college are more likely to lead a local kid astray.  I think the benefits of recruiting local kids (increased local fan base, top dog for talent in a big city, local goodwill, etc.) far outweigh any negatives, but I don't think this will decrease likelihood of trouble/bad public press at all.

completely agree, plus some of these guys may not have shown the level of talent until pushed.  the level of talent they face over all locally drops off pretty good.  so when they get to college/junior college and are pushed to their limits day in and day out, their true talent is put on display and they shine a little more.  plus the maturation thing kicks in.

[chapman]

Thanks for the background. I personally think Buzz does not have a directive to recruit only Milwaukee.  Good luck resolving that dispute from 2009!

This.  There hasn't been this kind of talent coming out of Milwaukee in a very long time.  It's not a directive, it's just opportunistic recruiting.  We happened to find three very talented players from the area, and they're excited to play for their hometown school.  There are definitely many advantages to being able to bring in a good portion of this local talent explosion; I wouldn't want to lose the ability to recruit nationally but I have no reason to believe the two are mutually exclusive.

And for the last page-plus of rambling, haven't seen an argument about absolutely nothing on here for awhile, how very refreshing.   

[Lighthouse 84]

You're twisting the argument.  I'm saying that Butler, Hayward and DJO would have developed into NBA players wth any any top notch coach.  

They were talented, special players, and saying that we had no talent on that team was wrong.

Would Wes have developed with any coach? 

[brewcity77]

Thanks for the background. I personally think Buzz does not have a directive to recruit only Milwaukee.  Good luck resolving that dispute from 2009!

+2

Seems like a silly, circular argument. It amazes me how many of those 84 finds himself in.