Both John Calipari and David Stern have said recently that they are in favor of raising the minimum draft age by a year. I think that is a great idea, but I wonder, would raising the draft age help to disperse the top talent?
For example, if Wall, Bledsoe, Cousins, and Orton were still around for 2010-2011, do guys like T. Jones, Kanter, Knight go some where else where they can get more playing time? If Knight and Kanter stayed (and actually played), do Davis, K-G, and Teague go elsewhere for 2011-2012?
Somehow I dont see UK bringing in top 10 guys every year to ride the pine behind the previous years' top ten guys. The egos of those players are too big and there just isn't enough space.
The answer to your question is "yes."
Any college hoops fan would like to see this, however ...
Raising the draft age won't be easy, given that the NBA and its players just came to terms on a long collective-bargaining agreement that didn't get done until after a lockout almost ruined the season.
Why would the players agree to reopen negotiations on this item? Stern cannot unilaterally make this change without the union. Owners would have to give back something significant, and I don't see it happening anytime soon.
^I had heard they left it open for that. Anyone know?
Basically all the union said is that they'd be willing to form a committee to discuss it.
In order for something like that to be put into play, the league would have to give something back to the players too. Basically they'll use it as a bargaining chip, and Stern said that while he would like to see a change, he is okay with the current one, so I don't see him giving up anything to get it.
I'd love to see kids be able to have the option. You either go pro after high school or you go to college for 2 years. That would be my preference.
From MU standpoint and college basketball in general, we would want it to go back to not having to wait one or two years. The high school players that are ready for the pros are basically going to go to Kentucky, North Carolina, Kansas and Duke, which eliminates anyone else from having a chance of winning the tournament. Do not bother to point out Uconn, they were an elite and now are a nobody. Sure those four schools will still get the top remaining players, but there is not as big of a talent gap.
Quote from: bilsu on April 04, 2012, 08:35:18 AM
Do not bother to point out Uconn, they were an elite and now are a nobody.
I'd take take three championships and NBA talent over the past 15 years and be a nobody.
Quote from: LAZER on April 04, 2012, 08:03:55 AM
I'd love to see kids be able to have the option. You either go pro after high school or you go to college for 2 years. That would be my preference.
I'm ok with companies requiring post high school experience/training, as a minimum qualification, for a multimillion dollar contract.
Quote from: RawdogDX on April 04, 2012, 08:55:28 AM
I'm ok with companies requiring post high school experience/training, as a minimum qualification, for a multimillion dollar contract.
The problem is that it is completely unnecessary. Anthony Davis should have been able to go right to the NBA. Lebron James would have just wasted time in college. Frankly I wish the NBA would simply allow players right out of high school again, but that's not going to happen.
Uconn's next one and done will be their first.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 04, 2012, 08:57:18 AM
The problem is that it is completely unnecessary. Anthony Davis should have been able to go right to the NBA. Lebron James would have just wasted time in college. Frankly I wish the NBA would simply allow players right out of high school again, but that's not going to happen.
LeBron was physically ready to play in the NBA as a HS junior but even after 10 years in the league he still doesn't understand how to play basketball and how the game works.
I think letting the kids go to NBA from HS is the way to go. Understand some kids make mistakes but same holds true with leaving early. I think this levels the playing fields in recruiting a tad and actually improves the college game. The kids that are true one and done's really are not in school for right reason anyways and seems to be dirtier to me. Do any of us really think the UK kids are interested in finishing the school year?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 04, 2012, 09:27:04 AM
LeBron was physically ready to play in the NBA as a HS junior but even after 10 years in the league he still doesn't understand how to play basketball and how the game works.
He understands it well enough to average 27,8,6 a game
Quote from: RawdogDX on April 04, 2012, 08:55:28 AM
I'm ok with companies requiring post high school experience/training, as a minimum qualification, for a multimillion dollar contract.
I'm fine with that as well, but leave that up to the teams. No one is forcing them to draft high school players.
The kids should be able to go straight from high school after they receive some feed back from the league about their likely draft status as they do now with the one-and-dones.
Quote from: LAZER on April 04, 2012, 09:32:47 AM
He understands it well enough to average 27,8,6 a game
While not winning anything.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 04, 2012, 09:27:04 AM
LeBron was physically ready to play in the NBA as a HS junior but even after 10 years in the league he still doesn't understand how to play basketball and how the game works.
Oh...OK. According to Merritts, Lebron James "doesn't understand how to play basketball."
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 04, 2012, 09:57:23 AM
While not winning anything.
Steve Nash hasn't won anything that LBJ hasn't...
Steve Nash understands how to play. Winning doesn't equal knowing how to play. A lot of dumb basketball IQ guys win.
Quote from: Warriors10 on April 04, 2012, 10:03:29 AM
Steve Nash hasn't won anything that LBJ hasn't...
Steve Nash understands how to play. Winning doesn't equal knowing how to play. A lot of dumb basketball IQ guys win.
Steve Nash isn't the most physically gifted player in the NBA.
Quote from: MarqBB77-03 on April 04, 2012, 09:44:07 AM
The kids should be able to go straight from high school after they receive some feed back from the league about their likely draft status as they do now with the one-and-dones.
I saw something a few weeks ago that more or less because of scheduling there will no longer be much if any feedback from the NBA before kids have to withdraw their names from the draft if they wish to return to school
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 04, 2012, 10:05:09 AM
Steve Nash isn't the most physically gifted player in the NBA.
I was trying to disprove your point that LBJ doesn't know how to play NBA basketball because he hasn't won. Not that Nash's physical gifts = LBJ's.
Also, you try winning for a Cavs team that for 7 years failed to put any talent that was not declining around you.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 04, 2012, 10:02:18 AM
Oh...OK. According to Merritts, Lebron James "doesn't understand how to play basketball."
That doesn't mean he's not a great, great player. He's far and away the most talented player in the NBA since Jordan. However, he doesn't understand when to take over a game, how to get everyone involved, how to close or how to put his team on his back and carry them to a big victory. Would a year or two at Ohio State have changed that? We'll never know but I do know that it's tough to find high IQ basketball players who entered the league straight from high school.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 04, 2012, 10:10:05 AM
That doesn't mean he's not a great, great player. He's far and away the most talented player in the NBA since Jordan. However, he doesn't understand when to take over a game, how to get everyone involved, how to close or how to put his team on his back and carry them to a big victory. Would a year or two at Ohio State have changed that? We'll never know but I do know that it's tough to find high IQ basketball players who entered the league straight from high school.
He was going to Duke if he had to go to college.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 04, 2012, 10:10:05 AM
That doesn't mean he's not a great, great player. He's far and away the most talented player in the NBA since Jordan. However, he doesn't understand when to take over a game, how to get everyone involved, how to close or how to put his team on his back and carry them to a big victory. Would a year or two at Ohio State have changed that? We'll never know but I do know that it's tough to find high IQ basketball players who entered the league straight from high school.
Kobe Bryant...Kevin Garnett...
And Lebron James is a high IQ basketball player. He oftentimes shrinks in big games, but I don't think that's a function of him not attending college.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 04, 2012, 10:14:08 AM
Kobe Bryant...Kevin Garnett...
And Lebron James is a high IQ basketball player. He oftentimes shrinks in big games, but I don't think that's a function of him not attending college.
If you think Kobe is a high IQ basketball player then you don't know what the term "high IQ basketball player" means.
If you do not think Kobe has high ball IQ the who in the world does? I am big, big Jordan groupie but have to admire Kobe both in talent and ball IQ. He may make stupid decisions because he feels need to take over the game and it often bites him in the ass. If every player have Kobe's ball IQ the game would be much better to watch.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 04, 2012, 10:15:49 AM
If you think Kobe is a high IQ basketball player then you don't know what the term "high IQ basketball player" means.
Do you know what the term high IQ basketball player means?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 04, 2012, 10:15:49 AM
If you think Kobe is a high IQ basketball player then you don't know what the term "high IQ basketball player" means.
Well, I now know that one of us doesn't know what a high IQ basketball player means...
Agree to disagree.
Taking a practical view, yes, kids should be allowed to go from high school to the NBA, just as a great trumpet player is allowed to go from high school to the symphony, a great actor can go from high school (or earlier) to MGM Studios, a great golfer can just skip college and go right to the tour, etc.
But the NBA, a private enterprise, has every right to regulate (with the agreement of its players union) the employees it wants to put on its payroll. And the NBA has several reasons to not want high-schoolers (or even one-and-doners):
1. It wants its teams to have to do as little babysitting as possible. It wants its players, including its rookies, to be as mature as possible. There are too many immature 22 and 32 year olds as it is; the league would rather have fewer teenagers, not more.
2. It doesn't want to have its scouts having to go to high school games. Stern, in fact, just cited this as one of the main reasons he's glad the league is out of the prep business. Scouting departments are stretched thin enough going to Europe and other parts of the world. Having to go to high school gyms all over America was really unappealing during those years scouts had to do it.
3. It's hard enough to project the professional potential of most college players.
4. The NBA likes having the NCAA as its minor-league system and wants NCAA coaches to develop as many NBA-ready players as possible.
The NBA would like a two-year college minimum every bit as much as NCAA coaches and fans would. But, as previously stated, this is not something the NBA can just do. The players association would want something major in return, and right now, with the ink on the new CBA barely dry, its not something that's gonna happen any time soon.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 04, 2012, 10:15:49 AM
If you think Kobe is a high IQ basketball player then you don't know what the term "high IQ basketball player" means.
What difference does it make if they have a "high basketball IQ"? Bottomline line is that Lebron has a skill set that EVERY NBA General Manager will pay millions upon millions of dollars for. That skill set has been developed without a year in college.
You can look at a dozen of NBA players that have come out of high school that have had long careers and made millions of dollars. They haven't been all stars, but they've managed to stay in the league and have long careers and end up making 10+ mil. And as far as development/maturity goes look at the wonders college did for Antoine Walker and Allen Iverson.
I think the NBA should take a position similar to the NFL.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 04, 2012, 10:10:05 AM
That doesn't mean he's not a great, great player. He's far and away the most talented player in the NBA since Jordan. However, he doesn't understand when to take over a game, how to get everyone involved, how to close or how to put his team on his back and carry them to a big victory. Would a year or two at Ohio State have changed that? We'll never know but I do know that it's tough to find high IQ basketball players who entered the league straight from high school.
Don't tell that to Kevin Durant, offensively. Definitely more of a complete player, but Durant is more talented offensively.
As far as putting a team on his back and stepping up in a situation, that has nothing to do with basketball IQ. It's funny that you say Kobe doesn't have a good basketball IQ and then site those two things as proof of Lebron having none. Is there anyone who steps up bigger in big situations than Kobe? Puts his team on his back as much as Kobe? Yet you say he doesn't have a high basketball IQ. Those things have to do with a guy's personality. Jerad Sullinger spent 2 years at the same school you sited (OSU) and he didn't learn how to do those things. Why? Because those aren't things you learn to do. They are characteristics of a person/player. You don't learn characteristics. You can get better through experience, but you aren't going to learn to become a leader.
And getting his teammates involved? Lebron is one of the best passers in the NBA. He averages 6.4 assists per game as a small forward. He averages 6.9 assists per game on his career, and a large majority of that came with an awful, awful Cavaliers team. I think he has that part of the game down just fine.
And yes, Kobe Bryant has a high basketball IQ. A very, very high basketball IQ. There are not many guys in the NBA who understand the game better than Kobe Bryant.
I think both the NBA and the NFL need to allow players straight from high school. As the rules are set-up now, quite frankly, its socialism. Players are being denied the ability to make fair value on their abilities and why should they be treated differently from Joe Schmoe who can choose to go to college or not to enable their future career. Yes players get legal benefits as college players but not nearly fair market value of what they could get if going to the NBA. Also pro players have a limited shelf life, spending even one year not earning in the NBA could lose a player millions of dollars that they may have needed if an injury shortens their career.
Additionally, it opens up more slots for players that could use several years of college to develop into a player for the NBA. There was no denying Lebron was ready for the NBA, but how much was Dwyane Wade helped by playing 2 years and in college for 3. Wade wouldn't have sniffed the NBA after high school but he took advantage of an opportunity to improve his value and it worked. Lebron didn't need that opportunity. Give the individual the choice
I'm not getting into the mental pissing match since I think winning IQ and basketball IQ are two different things.
Lastly, college is not some magical elixir that after a year teaches players how to make the right choice, spend money appropriately and not get into shady business. If you want that, put on a mandatory life lessons workshop for anyone entering the league and be done with it.
Quote from: mu03eng on April 04, 2012, 12:48:53 PM
Lastly, college is not some magical elixir that after a year teaches players how to make the right choice, spend money appropriately and not get into shady business. If you want that, put on a mandatory life lessons workshop for anyone entering the league and be done with it.
They already do this.
Quote from: mu03eng on April 04, 2012, 12:48:53 PM
As the rules are set-up now, quite frankly, its socialism.
I disagree with that. The NBA is a business and has the right to require qualifications for its employees like any other business. If the players don't like it, they don't have to work there. They can go play overseas if they want.
I respect the opinion of thinking guys should be able to go straight to the NBA is that's how you feel though.
Quote from: mu03eng on April 04, 2012, 12:48:53 PM
I think both the NBA and the NFL need to allow players straight from high school. As the rules are set-up now, quite frankly, its socialism. Players are being denied the ability to make fair value on their abilities and why should they be treated differently from Joe Schmoe who can choose to go to college or not to enable their future career. Yes players get legal benefits as college players but not nearly fair market value of what they could get if going to the NBA. Also pro players have a limited shelf life, spending even one year not earning in the NBA could lose a player millions of dollars that they may have needed if an injury shortens their career.
his is no different than a company that requires an advanced degree to get into management or something similar. If you don't like it, don't work there. If you want to work there though, you have to follow their rules. No one is entitled to play in the NBA at a given age.
Quote from: Bocephys on April 04, 2012, 01:04:29 PM
his is no different than a company that requires an advanced degree to get into management or something similar. If you don't like it, don't work there. If you want to work there though, you have to follow their rules. No one is entitled to play in the NBA at a given age.
That's why such requirements are outlined in collective bargaining.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 04, 2012, 08:57:18 AM
The problem is that it is completely unnecessary. Anthony Davis should have been able to go right to the NBA. Lebron James would have just wasted time in college. Frankly I wish the NBA would simply allow players right out of high school again, but that's not going to happen.
So? It's completely unnecessary for some people to attend college or a tech school after highschool to become a chicago police but it's required.
Every year there are 1000's of high school kids could become computer programmers and 1000s of companies don't give them the chance because they want to see degrees. Why should i care about a small sector that wants some post high school experience before signing individuals to million dollar deals.
You wouldn't care about any industry but basketball, it's completely reasonable.
I'm sorry but this makes little sense.
1000s of kids *might* be able to become computer programmers, but companies want to see degrees because it gives the programmer a label of legitimacy. They know that if they have the degree, they can be assured that they know their stuff and (more importantly) have the intellectual capacity to grow. Similar to Chicago police.
However, going to college is completely irrelevant to being a professional basketball player. There is nothing that college basketball can teach them that they can't learn in either Europe or the D-League.
Argh! A rule which allows Fab Melo to be academically inelegible for another year makes perfect sense. Just let them go Pro. Then at least the money some schools spend to tutor these kids is well spent on a kid who just might get a degree.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 05, 2012, 01:24:14 PM
There is nothing that college basketball can teach them that they can't learn in either Europe or the D-League.
Which is what Brandon Jennings did.
Here is an excerpt from the Daily Texan talking about Stern trying to set up a different system and the NCAA not going for it:
-----
"Stern tried to avoid this clash years ago, but the NCAA didn't play along.
"Years ago I said to the NCAA, I've got a great idea. We'll insure a select group of basketball players. And that will make them more likely to stay in school, because they won't feel the loss of a big contract," Stern said. "We'll designate a pool and those lucky enough to be drafted and make money will pay us back, and those that don't, it's our expense.
"The NCAA I think took it to a committee ... and they said it will only work under our rules if we do that for all sports. And I said, I don't think that'll work."
Kentucky is also the exception to the rule. Most teams loaded with talented freshman don't get far in the NCAA Tournament.
So what's the big deal? Money. The NCAA wants the best basketball players to play for them. For free."
-----
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 05, 2012, 01:24:14 PM
I'm sorry but this makes little sense.
1000s of kids *might* be able to become computer programmers, but companies want to see degrees because it gives the programmer a label of legitimacy. They know that if they have the degree, they can be assured that they know their stuff and (more importantly) have the intellectual capacity to grow. Similar to Chicago police.
However, going to college is completely irrelevant to being a professional basketball player. There is nothing that college basketball can teach them that they can't learn in either Europe or the D-League.
I disagree completely.
College, for most kids, is there first time living away from home and having to balance schoolwork, social life and playing ball. D1 programs are pretty strict, but it's still ultimately up to the player.
If I'm the NBA, I'd love to get a "free" look at these kids' maturation process before I go handing out million dollar deals because a kid can jump high.
Hell, if I were the NBA, I'd require 4 years. If would give me a good look at each player, it would give me an idea of the players work ethic, and I would have more maturity in the league.
All for FREE. NBA doesn't have to pay for any of this minor league development.
THE PROBLEM IS: If the NBA actually tried this, it would open up the marketplace for a competing league that could/would take HS players and pay them a lot.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 05, 2012, 01:24:14 PM
However, going to college is completely irrelevant to being a professional basketball player.
This is true in a lot of careers.
Tech. careers like science, engineering, etc. You need practice and training that college provides.
More abstract career choices are really learned on the job (marketing, sales, advertising, political science, etc.)
College can teach you some skills, but it is not a predictor of success in any career sector.
Wait, do the kids have to go to college? It's just one year out of high school, right?
If that's the case, don't you think one year of experience playing against high-level competition gives the player a label of legitimacy?
For the NBA, like most enterprises, it's about mitigating risk (it's probably worse for the NBA since their reputation is so important). Companies hire programmers with college degrees and experience because it reduces the risk of hire. The NBA's one-year rule accomplishes a similar thing. Instead of taking a risk on an unproven 18-year old who has never played against great competition, they get a year to evaluate. (Stern has also said that keeping scouts out of high school gyms saves times and money.)
As for going to college or Europe, I think college offers a lot more than room and board. Look at Anthony Davis: yeah, there were a few folks out there that knew of this high school kid. He's now a household name and has started to cultivate a brand. Whatever team drafts him inherits a few millions Kentucky fans. Davis' value is higher now than it ever was out of high school. I don't think that's completely irrelevant.
I'm actually in the market for a new job and wish I could explain to these companies that I'd make a great CEO, but, sadly, I'm lacking in that experience department. I don't understand why we'd ask the NBA to be any different.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 05, 2012, 01:24:14 PM
I'm sorry but this makes little sense.
1000s of kids *might* be able to become computer programmers, but companies want to see degrees because it gives the programmer a label of legitimacy. They know that if they have the degree, they can be assured that they know their stuff and (more importantly) have the intellectual capacity to grow. Similar to Chicago police.
However, going to college is completely irrelevant to being a professional basketball player. There is nothing that college basketball can teach them that they can't learn in either Europe or the D-League.
I specifically said "post high-school experience". Not 'College'. A bball player could go to europe and a high school programer could also go work for some firm with lower standards and then use that experience to leverage a job sans degree.
I don't see a difference and I can't fathom a reason to hold anything against the owners. It is there money, they don't want to be put in a postition where they are giving millions of it to 18 year olds. For every lebron who will have to spend two years in college or eurpoe there will be 3 kawmi browns who could have been helped by it.
Quote from: RawdogDX on April 05, 2012, 02:27:39 PM
I specifically said "post high-school experience". Not 'College'. A bball player could go to europe and a high school programer could also go work for some firm with lower standards and then use that experience to leverage a job sans degree.
I don't see a difference and I can't fathom a reason to hold anything against the owners. It is there money, they don't want to be put in a postition where they are giving millions of it to 18 year olds. For every lebron who will have to spend two years in college or eurpoe there will be 3 kawmi browns who could have been helped by it.
OK...I really don't have any disagreements with this.
Cuban would like players to stay 3 years in college
http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story/_/id/7778070/dallas-mavericks-mark-cuban-make-players-stay-3-years-ncaa
Quote from: mu03eng on April 04, 2012, 12:48:53 PM
I think both the NBA and the NFL need to allow players straight from high school. As the rules are set-up now, quite frankly, its socialism. Players are being denied the ability to make fair value on their abilities and why should they be treated differently from Joe Schmoe who can choose to go to college or not to enable their future career. Yes players get legal benefits as college players but not nearly fair market value of what they could get if going to the NBA. Also pro players have a limited shelf life, spending even one year not earning in the NBA could lose a player millions of dollars that they may have needed if an injury shortens their career.
What person in today's society is reaping these vast rewards of skipping college and going right into their future career? Landscapers? Construction guys? Most white collar positions require a 4 year degree at a minimum. For those that don't, those aren't usually positions with much upside.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on April 05, 2012, 04:38:38 PM
Cuban would like players to stay 3 years in college
http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story/_/id/7778070/dallas-mavericks-mark-cuban-make-players-stay-3-years-ncaa
What person in today's society is reaping these vast rewards of skipping college and going right into their future career? Landscapers? Construction guys? Most white collar positions require a 4 year degree at a minimum. For those that don't, those aren't usually positions with much upside.
It is not a question of reaping benefits. It is a question of fair access to your profession and being able to decide for yourself. An arbitrary rule like high school plus one takes away rightful options from the players. Why Mark Cuban or anyone else feels it is important that the NBA protect basketball players from making dumb decisions is beyond me. (Here's a hint, they really don't care.)
Basically, the NBA has this rule for two reasons.
1. It gives the teams a better handle on how good a kid is than if they just took them right out of high school, lessening the chance of wasting money and valuable draft picks on kids who won't be able to cut it.
2. The college game gives the NBA free access to promoting its new players and therefore helps marketing. Having a kid who starred on National TV for Kentucky is a lot more valuable to the NBA than if the kid went to the D-League and starred for the Des Moines Thundercats or whatever for a year.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on April 05, 2012, 04:38:38 PM
What person in today's society is reaping these vast rewards of skipping college and going right into their future career? Landscapers? Construction guys? Most white collar positions require a 4 year degree at a minimum. For those that don't, those aren't usually positions with much upside.
C'mon... You don't need classroom college experience to play basketball. European soccer teams have youth academies and scout players as young as 9 years old and run them through their system. The NBA could develop that exact same system, which frankly is more intellectually honest than having high schools, AAU teams and colleges do their training for them.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 06, 2012, 08:47:02 AM
C'mon... You don't need classroom college experience to play basketball. European soccer teams have youth academies and scout players as young as 9 years old and run them through their system. The NBA could develop that exact same system, which frankly is more intellectually honest than having high schools, AAU teams and colleges do their training for them.
They COULD, but why would they want to?
Expanding your product offering is sometimes a success (Apple with iphone), but it can be a failure if don't know what you are doing (Harley with snowmobiles).
Right now, the NBA just has to worry about the NBA, and they aren't even that good at it. I don't think they should try to expand with a true minor league system.
Baseball gets by because the infrastructure has existed forever. Building it all from the ground up would be a large (unprofitable) challenge.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on April 06, 2012, 11:10:12 AM
They COULD, but why would they want to?
Expanding your product offering is sometimes a success (Apple with iphone), but it can be a failure if don't know what you are doing (Harley with snowmobiles).
Right now, the NBA just has to worry about the NBA, and they aren't even that good at it. I don't think they should try to expand with a true minor league system.
Baseball gets by because the infrastructure has existed forever. Building it all from the ground up would be a large (unprofitable) challenge.
This is one of those posts where picturing it spoken in a dignified tone by your mustachioed Amo avatar makes it a million times better.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 06, 2012, 08:47:02 AM
C'mon... You don't need classroom college experience to play basketball. European soccer teams have youth academies and scout players as young as 9 years old and run them through their system. The NBA could develop that exact same system, which frankly is more intellectually honest than having high schools, AAU teams and colleges do their training for them.
It would be kinda cool if a multi billion $$ enterprise did what was right instead of what benefitted them, but who are we kidding.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on April 06, 2012, 11:10:12 AM
They COULD, but why would they want to?
I completely agree. They have someone else doing it for them.
I just dispute the notion that basketball players have to go to college to be better at their craft.
Quote from: CTWarrior on April 06, 2012, 08:33:08 AM
It is not a question of reaping benefits. It is a question of fair access to your profession and being able to decide for yourself. An arbitrary rule like high school plus one takes away rightful options from the players. Why Mark Cuban or anyone else feels it is important that the NBA protect basketball players from making dumb decisions is beyond me. (Here's a hint, they really don't care.)
Basically, the NBA has this rule for two reasons.
1. It gives the teams a better handle on how good a kid is than if they just took them right out of high school, lessening the chance of wasting money and valuable draft picks on kids who won't be able to cut it.
2. The college game gives the NBA free access to promoting its new players and therefore helps marketing. Having a kid who starred on National TV for Kentucky is a lot more valuable to the NBA than if the kid went to the D-League and starred for the Des Moines Thundercats or whatever for a year.
No disagreement there, but it also does something fundamental in terms of messing with people's lives. There are too many kids pushed by their handlers into declaring when they aren't that good. With limited amount of a body of work to determine their upside, teams are taking a chance on players and then spitting them out 2 or 3 years later when they prove they can't play (if they are drafted at all). We seem to be ignoring that part of it and Cuban touches on that.
I disagree with your assertion that they don't have fair access to their profession. They can go to Europe and play right out of high school. That might be extreme, but that option is there for them.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 06, 2012, 08:47:02 AM
C'mon... You don't need classroom college experience to play basketball. European soccer teams have youth academies and scout players as young as 9 years old and run them through their system. The NBA could develop that exact same system, which frankly is more intellectually honest than having high schools, AAU teams and colleges do their training for them.
I am not making that claim. My response was to the other commenter that apparently other people on other professions can just come out of high school and go right into the work force. That is true for some jobs, but you aren't going to land a job at an accounting firm without a 4 year degree. You aren't landing 99% of white collar jobs without a degree.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 06, 2012, 11:37:07 AM
I completely agree. They have someone else doing it for them.
I just dispute the notion that basketball players have to go to college to be better at their craft.
I think this is true for a lot of careers though.
For most people, college isn't specific field training (like being a plumber's apprentice). It's a process of learning. Learning how to live, eat, study, work in groups, time management, plus
some basic skills in your specific field of choice.
A lot of careers are really learned on the job, just like NBA basketball players learn on the job.
But, a college degree displays an ability to learn, perform, and at least some level of responsibility, so it's important for employers to see it before they will consider you a candidate, whether that be the NBA, or selling insurance.
So, I agree with you, but I don't think that it's unique to the NBA. Do you really need a college degree to be a great Pharm sales rep? No. But, I don't think they consider a candidate who doesn't have a degree.
Quote from: Jamailman on April 06, 2012, 11:21:23 AM
This is one of those posts where picturing it spoken in a dignified tone by your mustachioed Amo avatar makes it a million times better.
Amo loves discussions on macro economics and geopolitics as well.
Well rounded cat.
/chugs protein shake
//has some stuck in mustache
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 05, 2012, 02:33:58 PM
OK...I really don't have any disagreements with this.
Sorry... I thought you had some reason to think that expanding the post high school exp requirement to 2 years would reflect negatively on the owners.
Quote from: RawdogDX on April 06, 2012, 12:17:22 PM
Sorry... I thought you had some reason to think that expanding the post high school exp requirement to 2 years would reflect negatively on the owners.
No, I just dispute the notion that college basketball is necessary for some players. Frankly I wish the one and dones would either go to Europe or the D-League.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on April 06, 2012, 11:44:55 AM
I am not making that claim. My response was to the other commenter that apparently other people on other professions can just come out of high school and go right into the work force. That is true for some jobs, but you aren't going to land a job at an accounting firm without a 4 year degree. You aren't landing 99% of white collar jobs without a degree.
My issue is that you are comparing the NBA to white collar jobs. For an accounting career, college can appreciably improve your chance to succeed. However for basketball players that is not really true, in some cases college basketball(not college itself) could help a player but in a fair number of instances it might not and in a small number could hurt the player physically or financially. The NBA is much closer to a blue collar job than it is a white collar job.
I have a buddy that started as an apprentice steamfitter straight out of high school and now is running his own business making some very good coin. If he had to go to college who knows if that works out for him or not. He was good with mechanical things and a strong work ethic, learned on the job and has made a very good life for himself. Yes he required training classes, but thats no different than what the NBA should be requiring. Not a perfect comparison but much closer to real life with the NBA than a white collar job.
Quote from: mu03eng on April 06, 2012, 12:40:29 PM
My issue is that you are comparing the NBA to white collar jobs. For an accounting career, college can appreciably improve your chance to succeed. However for basketball players that is not really true, in some cases college basketball(not college itself) could help a player but in a fair number of instances it might not and in a small number could hurt the player physically or financially. The NBA is much closer to a blue collar job than it is a white collar job.
I have a buddy that started as an apprentice steamfitter straight out of high school and now is running his own business making some very good coin. If he had to go to college who knows if that works out for him or not. He was good with mechanical things and a strong work ethic, learned on the job and has made a very good life for himself. Yes he required training classes, but thats no different than what the NBA should be requiring. Not a perfect comparison but much closer to real life with the NBA than a white collar job.
You bring up an interesting point.
However, the volume of $$ NBA rookies make changes the situation drastically.
Being a steamfitter's apprentice and grinding it out 40+ hours per week for little money teaches some valuable lessons about work ethic, responsibility, financial management, delayed gratification, etc.
Give the kid 4million dollars his first day on the job, and see if he learns those same things.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on April 06, 2012, 12:48:33 PM
You bring up an interesting point.
However, the volume of $$ NBA rookies make changes the situation drastically.
Being a steamfitter's apprentice and grinding it out 40+ hours per week for little money teaches some valuable lessons about work ethic, responsibility, financial management, delayed gratification, etc.
Give the kid 4million dollars his first day on the job, and see if he learns those same things.
But you think a single year of college, maybe attending classes, none of which are titled "How to handle millions of dollars instantly 101" will be better?
I think college is misapplied to those talents that could go straight to the NBA or NFL. It diverts money and roster spots away from people that might otherwise make good use of it and has a negligible impact on those one and done players.
Quote from: CTWarrior on April 06, 2012, 08:33:08 AMAn arbitrary rule like high school plus one takes away rightful options from the players.
Two things:
1. You said this was an arbitrary rules and then gave two pretty good reasons for it.
2. There is no
right to any options, and certainly no right to play in the NBA, no matter how talented.
I think if we're just arguing about college, then no, I don't think one-and-dones should be somehow forced into it. And they are not.
I do think that one year of college teaches you how to play with higher-level opponents and deal with elevated fame. The classes may never be necessary to your life, but the experience will be.
So long as the NBA has a X years out of high school rule (and I think it is a smart rule for them), I think college remains the best use of that time.
Quote from: mu03eng on April 06, 2012, 01:13:15 PM
But you think a single year of college, maybe attending classes, none of which are titled "How to handle millions of dollars instantly 101" will be better?
I think college is misapplied to those talents that could go straight to the NBA or NFL. It diverts money and roster spots away from people that might otherwise make good use of it and has a negligible impact on those one and done players.
I know this isn't really the issue at hand, but the NBA and NFL are two totally different animals. The reason for the NFL restriction is that 18-year-old kids very rarely have the physical frame to handle the type of physicality they'll face in the NFL. Those extra 2-3 years are needed to build the additional bulk and strength they'll need just to compete. That's why there's never been a strong push for 18-year-olds to be able to play pro football.
In the NBA it's different. Yes, there's contact, but not at the same level. Sure, there are the physical freaks like Lebron that show up, but could guys like Kobe and Kevin Garnett have competed in the NFL from the get-go? Certainly not...they didn't have the bodies for it. You don't need the same sheer size to compete in the NBA. Heck, Kevin Durant was great from the start, and his body wasn't even remotely developed.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 06, 2012, 01:33:38 PM
I know this isn't really the issue at hand, but the NBA and NFL are two totally different animals. The reason for the NFL restriction is that 18-year-old kids very rarely have the physical frame to handle the type of physicality they'll face in the NFL. Those extra 2-3 years are needed to build the additional bulk and strength they'll need just to compete. That's why there's never been a strong push for 18-year-olds to be able to play pro football.
In the NBA it's different. Yes, there's contact, but not at the same level. Sure, there are the physical freaks like Lebron that show up, but could guys like Kobe and Kevin Garnett have competed in the NFL from the get-go? Certainly not...they didn't have the bodies for it. You don't need the same sheer size to compete in the NBA. Heck, Kevin Durant was great from the start, and his body wasn't even remotely developed.
I completely agree with you from a physical readiness standpoint but lets not mandate college. Give players a choice. Yes it is going to be much more rare for a football player than a basketball player to go straight to the pros but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen or that we should artificially limit a player's option.
By forcing players into college we are making a mockery of what college can do for you, plus more than likely teach a lot of 18-22 year olds is ok to circumvent rules(not going to class, etc) because you are special. That is the worst lesson to be teach some of these kids. You are actually reducing the effectiveness of college.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on April 06, 2012, 11:44:55 AM
No disagreement there, but it also does something fundamental in terms of messing with people's lives. There are too many kids pushed by their handlers into declaring when they aren't that good.
The NBA doesn't particularly care about people who aren't yet in their organization and I'm not sure why they should. Another example of us treating young men like helpless children incapable of taking care of themselves. People should be responsible for themselves and be allowed to make their own decisions about their future.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on April 06, 2012, 11:44:55 AM
I disagree with your assertion that they don't have fair access to their profession.
Fair access to me means the ability to ply their trade wherever they want if they are good enough at it. I think the NBA would love to extend the rule to 3 years after high school graduation to take a couple years of salary acceleration away and give them even more evidence to draft properly and to better build the brand of their players before arriving in the NBA. Should they do that, I'm sure they'll have to start legally defending the policy and that would open up another can of worms they don't need. Can you imagine Lebron James after his sophomore year of college having to go back for a third?
Quote from: mu03eng on April 06, 2012, 01:13:15 PM
But you think a single year of college, maybe attending classes, none of which are titled "How to handle millions of dollars instantly 101" will be better?
I think college is misapplied to those talents that could go straight to the NBA or NFL. It diverts money and roster spots away from people that might otherwise make good use of it and has a negligible impact on those one and done players.
You're right. I don't think 1 year of college instantly makes a kid ready to handle millions.
BUT, it does reveal some kids who might be super talented, but too immature to balance schoolwork, playing at a high level, travel, etc. at the college level.
I don't think Fab Melo is going to go undrafted because he failed some classes... but it's going to be a consideration when you evaluate him. Is the kid mentally ready to put in the work required? What about the kid from ILL (can't remember his name) who had tons of problems while in school? Might have been drafted coming out of HS, never happened after his ILL experience.
It's not a perfect system, but if I'm the NBA, I love getting some extra looks at how these kids perform in college vs. scouting AAU games.
AND, the NBA is not forcing kids to go to college. It's an age/maturity restriction, so guys go overseas, or a kid could go to JUCO, or just play pick-up for a year and then enter the draft. Hell, he could probably go try-out for the globetrotters if he wanted.
Quote from: CTWarrior on April 06, 2012, 01:48:27 PMFair access to me means the ability to ply their trade wherever they want if they are good enough at it.
Fair access would be having the same access as everyone else. And, while knowing the right people and, you know, actually being able to play ball will certainly help, the NBA is being perfectly fair in it's assessment.
Quote from: CTWarrior on April 06, 2012, 01:48:27 PMI think the NBA would love to extend the rule to 3 years after high school graduation...should they do that, I'm sure they'll have to start legally defending the policy...
Again, how is that different than a company requiring 10 years of experience for a position? Seems to me, in both cases, the enterprise believes X amount of time gives them the best opportunity to evaluate your fit.
Quote from: Utile et Dulce on April 06, 2012, 02:24:10 PM
Again, how is that different than a company requiring 10 years of experience for a position? Seems to me, in both cases, the enterprise believes X amount of time gives them the best opportunity to evaluate your fit.
First off, a company that requires 10 years experience will ALWAYS back off of that rule if they see someone they like who doesn't have 10 years experience. Second, if every company at the level of a company with a 10 year rule had the same rule (which is the way it is in the NBA) no one would ever get the job because it would be impossible to get 10 years of experience in a field where you couldn't be hired until you had 10 years experience.
I understand the need for a doctor or a lawyer to complete their schooling because there is no practical way to demonstrate their ability to handle their profession other than satisfactorily completing schooling, but basketball players can demonstrate their ability in other ways. Plus, if it doesn't work out or they only play for a couple of years, they can still go to school and pay for it like everyone else. If they aren't well-schooled enough or bright enough to do that, that is not the NBA's fault or the NBA's problem.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 06, 2012, 12:22:20 PM
No, I just dispute the notion that college basketball is necessary for some players. Frankly I wish the one and dones would either go to Europe or the D-League.
You'll start getting your wish gradually over the next two decades. Pushing the limit to 2 years might exasperate the rate.
That might be a good thing for the popularity of basketball in Europe. The europe and college teams competing for top recruits would make for good TV.
Quote from: CTWarrior on April 06, 2012, 01:48:27 PM
Can you imagine Lebron James after his sophomore year of college having to go back for a third?
Yes, I can imagine that. I saw Lew Alcinder do it and he even had to sit his freshman year when they weren't eligible. Many great players did it time after time after time and they got better, college basketball was better and they became better pros as a result because they were ready . It is not hard for me to imagine at all.
Quote from: mu03eng on April 06, 2012, 01:13:15 PM
But you think a single year of college, maybe attending classes, none of which are titled "How to handle millions of dollars instantly 101" will be better?
I think college is misapplied to those talents that could go straight to the NBA or NFL. It diverts money and roster spots away from people that might otherwise make good use of it and has a negligible impact on those one and done players.
Yes. It teaches some levels of responsibility that they do not get today. These guys are not just one and done, they only go to school for one semester and then coast the second semester knowing they are leaving. They are missing out on some of the maturation process of having to pursue something for multiple years. Going to class, earning grades, ramifications for not earning those grades, etc. The maturity that goes along with it. These are important lessons.
Think of our own lives. Freshmen year for many of us - what a crazy time trying to get our bearings. Parties, first time from home, girls, freedom. By Junior year, we learned to balance all those things out. Instead, these kids get indoctrinated into the euphoria of Freshman year, hoops hoops hoops, take one semester of classes and then start a second semester in which they coast. After the season, someone hands them a check for several million dollars. What could possibly go wrong? Many of them aren't ready.
Honestly, what this comes down to is really just recognizing the NCAA and colleges for what they are. The NCAA is a business. Guys like Anthony Davis, Austin Rivers, Kyrie Irving, those are just short-time cash cows. I can't imagine them doing anything to jeopardize being able to get those types of talents even for one year because they feel it will improve their product (for better or worse). And the colleges are all like little fiefdoms, looking for their own entertainment. These guys were never there to be students, they were there to be entertainers. To put on a show and give the students, alumni, and fans something to cheer for, while also adding a bit of money in the form of merchandising. Does it cheapen the "scholastic" nature? I guess maybe for some. But if you just realize that for these "students", the "student" aspect was never why they were there in the first place...
I don't know, maybe I'm just rambling. I just don't see any way this will change any time soon. The NBA and other pro sports won't want to spend money developing yet another new feeder league for kids when there is already a AAU/Pop Warner/collegiate system in place that doesn't cost them money, and those said feeder systems won't want to give up what they gain from having these players even for a short time.
Quote from: mu03eng on April 04, 2012, 12:48:53 PM
I think both the NBA and the NFL need to allow players straight from high school. As the rules are set-up now, quite frankly, its socialism.
Actually, it's capitalism. When high school players were allowed to go straight to the pros too many high school kids did and the NBA owners wasted money on players who failed. The owners make the rules (in large part) and they want to be in a position to make the best investment in players. The further the players are along in their development, the less risk owners take when making their decisions.
The owners are not the government. They are private owners of teams. The owners, the people with the capital, can set the rules for their private association. The players association pushes in the other direction on behalf of labor. The players' association fights for labor who works for free for one year now. They argue for the labor side who would want to become professionals right out of high school.
These are all private parties, granted organizing into larger groups, with leverage arguing for their rights. Not sure how that's socialism. If you want to throw a term around for no reason, why not just call it communism? Or an Orwellian satanic cult with beastialistic overtones? Socialism is kind of boring.
Quote from: CTWarrior on April 06, 2012, 01:48:27 PM
I think the NBA would love to extend the rule to 3 years after high school graduation to take a couple years of salary acceleration away and give them even more evidence to draft properly and to better build the brand of their players before arriving in the NBA. Should they do that, I'm sure they'll have to start legally defending the policy and that would open up another can of worms they don't need.
The NBA would no more have to legally defend that policy than the NFL has to defend the exact same policy.
Players would be free to ply their trade in any number of venues. The NBA is not saying they have to go to college. I doubt any athlete could win this battle in court. The NBA is a private entity.
That being said, any policy would have to be collectively bargained, and the union is not particularly interested in any policy that would delay the big salaries for two more years.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on April 06, 2012, 05:50:06 PM
Yes, I can imagine that. I saw Lew Alcinder do it and he even had to sit his freshman year when they weren't eligible. Many great players did it time after time after time and they got better, college basketball was better and they became better pros as a result because they were ready . It is not hard for me to imagine at all.
Yes. It teaches some levels of responsibility that they do not get today. These guys are not just one and done, they only go to school for one semester and then coast the second semester knowing they are leaving. They are missing out on some of the maturation process of having to pursue something for multiple years. Going to class, earning grades, ramifications for not earning those grades, etc. The maturity that goes along with it. These are important lessons.
Think of our own lives. Freshmen year for many of us - what a crazy time trying to get our bearings. Parties, first time from home, girls, freedom. By Junior year, we learned to balance all those things out. Instead, these kids get indoctrinated into the euphoria of Freshman year, hoops hoops hoops, take one semester of classes and then start a second semester in which they coast. After the season, someone hands them a check for several million dollars. What could possibly go wrong? Many of them aren't ready.
Hoop you presume these players get the same kind college experience us mere mortals do. They don't. They deserve everything they get but they don't have nearly the same experience to teach them those things we learn
Quote from: mu03eng on April 06, 2012, 01:44:16 PM
I completely agree with you from a physical readiness standpoint but lets not mandate college. Give players a choice. Yes it is going to be much more rare for a football player than a basketball player to go straight to the pros but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen or that we should artificially limit a player's option.
By forcing players into college we are making a mockery of what college can do for you, plus more than likely teach a lot of 18-22 year olds is ok to circumvent rules(not going to class, etc) because you are special. That is the worst lesson to be teach some of these kids. You are actually reducing the effectiveness of college.
They can go to europe and get paid 100s of thousands of dollars travel and hook up with girls from the Czech Republic. No one is mandating college.
Plenty of private industries require college/work experience. Why can't/shouldn't/wouldn't the NBA owners do the same thing?
It is good for them. They have free scouting and training before paying people millions of dollars to train. Does your company hire people knowing that they won't do crap for two years but then they have a shot at being good? Wouldn't you rather have them trained when they got there? This is how private industry works.
As for 'Artificially limiting his option'. The problem is that you are forcing the owners to do something they don't want to do. Take chances on high school kids. They don't want to have their options inculde those players. They don't want to pick eddie curry or tyson chandler. Once it is allowed then your hand is often forced. It's a bad business decision to let kids walk off high school floors into NY penthouses.
Quote from: RawdogDX on April 09, 2012, 10:42:31 AM
They can go to europe and get paid 100s of thousands of dollars travel and hook up with girls from the Czech Republic. No one is mandating college.
Plenty of private industries require college/work experience. Why can't/shouldn't/wouldn't the NBA owners do the same thing?
For the gazillionth time, yes, the owners would love this.
It has to be collectively bargained! Until the players sign off on it, it simply won't happen.
People need to stop pretending David Stern can unilaterally change the rules or that the owners can do so by a vote. After a long negotiating impasse that threatened to cancel the season, the NBA and its players just signed an extended collective-bargaining agreement. Making young players wait past their 19th birthdays wasn't among the terms.
We are arguing over a moot point here.
Quote from: RawdogDX on April 09, 2012, 10:42:31 AM
They can go to europe and get paid 100s of thousands of dollars travel and hook up with girls from the Czech Republic. No one is mandating college.
Plenty of private industries require college/work experience. Why can't/shouldn't/wouldn't the NBA owners do the same thing?
It is good for them. They have free scouting and training before paying people millions of dollars to train. Does your company hire people knowing that they won't do crap for two years but then they have a shot at being good? Wouldn't you rather have them trained when they got there? This is how private industry works.
As for 'Artificially limiting his option'. The problem is that you are forcing the owners to do something they don't want to do. Take chances on high school kids. They don't want to have their options inculde those players. They don't want to pick eddie curry or tyson chandler. Once it is allowed then your hand is often forced. It's a bad business decision to let kids walk off high school floors into NY penthouses.
As has been pointed out here before....lots of companies have experience and educational "requirements" but a lot of companies will waive those if the right candidate comes along.
MU82 is right, it is moot because this has to be collectively barginned, but the funny thing is that the rights of future players aren't being negotiated by those same players they are being negotiated by current players who have a vested interest in keeping the younger players out as long as possible.
I disagree that current players have a vested interest in keeping college players out as long as possible.
Maybe borderline or mediocre players do, but any player who is going to have any kind of NBA career at all wants every player earning the most money possible. He wants a kid to enter the league at 18 or 19, get that first contract out of the way and then get the huge bucks.
Aside from the few guys who get maximum contracts, players get paid according to how they compare to other players. If I'm a good 27-year-old in a contract year, I'd much rather be compared to a good 23-year-old who just signed his second contract than a 23-year-old still stuck in his first deal because he didn't enter the league until he was 21.