NBA draft age rule

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

C'mon... You don't need classroom college experience to play basketball.  European soccer teams have youth academies and scout players as young as 9 years old and run them through their system.  The NBA could develop that exact same system, which frankly is more intellectually honest than having high schools, AAU teams and colleges do their training for them.

They COULD, but why would they want to?

Expanding your product offering is sometimes a success (Apple with iphone), but it can be a failure if don't know what you are doing (Harley with snowmobiles).

Right now, the NBA just has to worry about the NBA, and they aren't even that good at it. I don't think they should try to expand with a true minor league system.

Baseball gets by because the infrastructure has existed forever. Building it all from the ground up would be a large (unprofitable) challenge.

[Silkk the Shaka]

They COULD, but why would they want to?

Expanding your product offering is sometimes a success (Apple with iphone), but it can be a failure if don't know what you are doing (Harley with snowmobiles).

Right now, the NBA just has to worry about the NBA, and they aren't even that good at it. I don't think they should try to expand with a true minor league system.

Baseball gets by because the infrastructure has existed forever. Building it all from the ground up would be a large (unprofitable) challenge.

This is one of those posts where picturing it spoken in a dignified tone by your mustachioed Amo avatar makes it a million times better.

[mu-rara]

C'mon... You don't need classroom college experience to play basketball.  European soccer teams have youth academies and scout players as young as 9 years old and run them through their system.  The NBA could develop that exact same system, which frankly is more intellectually honest than having high schools, AAU teams and colleges do their training for them.

It would be kinda cool if a multi billion $$ enterprise did what was right instead of what benefitted them, but who are we kidding.

[GGGG]

They COULD, but why would they want to?

I completely agree.  They have someone else doing it for them.

I just dispute the notion that basketball players have to go to college to be better at their craft.

[Hoopaloop]

It is not a question of reaping benefits.  It is a question of fair access to your profession and being able to decide for yourself.  An arbitrary rule like high school plus one takes away rightful options from the players.  Why Mark Cuban or anyone else feels it is important that the NBA protect basketball players from making dumb decisions is beyond me.  (Here's a hint, they really don't care.)  

Basically, the NBA has this rule for two reasons.

1.  It gives the teams a better handle on how good a kid is than if they just took them right out of high school, lessening the chance of wasting money and valuable draft picks on kids who won't be able to cut it.

2.  The college game gives the NBA free access to promoting its new players and therefore helps marketing.  Having a kid who starred on National TV for Kentucky is a lot more valuable to the NBA than if the kid went to the D-League and starred for the Des Moines Thundercats or whatever for a year.

No disagreement there, but it also does something fundamental in terms of messing with people's lives.  There are too many kids pushed by their handlers into declaring when they aren't that good.  With limited amount of a body of work to determine their upside, teams are taking a chance on players and then spitting them out 2 or 3 years later when they prove they can't play (if they are drafted at all).  We seem to be ignoring that part of it and Cuban touches on that.

I disagree with your assertion that they don't have fair access to their profession.  They can go to Europe and play right out of high school.  That might be extreme, but that option is there for them. 

C'mon... You don't need classroom college experience to play basketball.  European soccer teams have youth academies and scout players as young as 9 years old and run them through their system.  The NBA could develop that exact same system, which frankly is more intellectually honest than having high schools, AAU teams and colleges do their training for them.

I am not making that claim.  My response was to the other commenter that apparently other people on other professions can just come out of high school and go right into the work force.  That is true for some jobs, but you aren't going to land a job at an accounting firm without a 4 year degree.  You aren't landing 99% of white collar jobs without a degree.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I completely agree.  They have someone else doing it for them.

I just dispute the notion that basketball players have to go to college to be better at their craft.

I think this is true for a lot of careers though.

For most people, college isn't specific field training (like being a plumber's apprentice). It's a process of learning. Learning how to live, eat, study, work in groups, time management, plus some basic skills in your specific field of choice. 

A lot of careers are really learned on the job, just like NBA basketball players learn on the job.

But, a college degree displays an ability to learn, perform, and at least some level of responsibility, so it's important for employers to see it before they will consider you a candidate, whether that be the NBA, or selling insurance.

So, I agree with you, but I don't think that it's unique to the NBA. Do you really need a college degree to be a great Pharm sales rep? No. But, I don't think they consider a candidate who doesn't have a degree.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

This is one of those posts where picturing it spoken in a dignified tone by your mustachioed Amo avatar makes it a million times better.

Amo loves discussions on macro economics and geopolitics as well.

Well rounded cat.

/chugs protein shake
//has some stuck in mustache

[RawdogDX]

OK...I really don't have any disagreements with this. 

Sorry... I thought you had some reason to think that expanding the post high school exp requirement to 2 years would reflect negatively on the owners.

[GGGG]

Sorry... I thought you had some reason to think that expanding the post high school exp requirement to 2 years would reflect negatively on the owners.

No, I just dispute the notion that college basketball is necessary for some players.  Frankly I wish the one and dones would either go to Europe or the D-League.

[mu03eng]

I am not making that claim.  My response was to the other commenter that apparently other people on other professions can just come out of high school and go right into the work force.  That is true for some jobs, but you aren't going to land a job at an accounting firm without a 4 year degree.  You aren't landing 99% of white collar jobs without a degree.

My issue is that you are comparing the NBA to white collar jobs.  For an accounting career, college can appreciably improve your chance to succeed.  However for basketball players that is not really true, in some cases college basketball(not college itself) could help a player but in a fair number of instances it might not and in a small number could hurt the player physically or financially.  The NBA is much closer to a blue collar job than it is a white collar job.

I have a buddy that started as an apprentice steamfitter straight out of high school and now is running his own business making some very good coin.  If he had to go to college who knows if that works out for him or not.  He was good with mechanical things and a strong work ethic, learned on the job and has made a very good life for himself.  Yes he required training classes, but thats no different than what the NBA should be requiring.  Not a perfect comparison but much closer to real life with the NBA than a white collar job.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

My issue is that you are comparing the NBA to white collar jobs.  For an accounting career, college can appreciably improve your chance to succeed.  However for basketball players that is not really true, in some cases college basketball(not college itself) could help a player but in a fair number of instances it might not and in a small number could hurt the player physically or financially.  The NBA is much closer to a blue collar job than it is a white collar job.

I have a buddy that started as an apprentice steamfitter straight out of high school and now is running his own business making some very good coin.  If he had to go to college who knows if that works out for him or not.  He was good with mechanical things and a strong work ethic, learned on the job and has made a very good life for himself.  Yes he required training classes, but thats no different than what the NBA should be requiring.  Not a perfect comparison but much closer to real life with the NBA than a white collar job.

You bring up an interesting point.

However, the volume of $$ NBA rookies make changes the situation drastically.

Being a steamfitter's apprentice and grinding it out 40+ hours per week for little money teaches some valuable lessons about work ethic, responsibility, financial management, delayed gratification, etc.

Give the kid 4million dollars his first day on the job, and see if he learns those same things. 

[mu03eng]

You bring up an interesting point.

However, the volume of $$ NBA rookies make changes the situation drastically.

Being a steamfitter's apprentice and grinding it out 40+ hours per week for little money teaches some valuable lessons about work ethic, responsibility, financial management, delayed gratification, etc.

Give the kid 4million dollars his first day on the job, and see if he learns those same things. 

But you think a single year of college, maybe attending classes, none of which are titled "How to handle millions of dollars instantly 101" will be better?

I think college is misapplied to those talents that could go straight to the NBA or NFL.  It diverts money and roster spots away from people that might otherwise make good use of it and has a negligible impact on those one and done players.

[nathanziarek]

An arbitrary rule like high school plus one takes away rightful options from the players.

Two things:

1. You said this was an arbitrary rules and then gave two pretty good reasons for it.

2. There is no right to any options, and certainly no right to play in the NBA, no matter how talented.

[nathanziarek]

I think if we're just arguing about college, then no, I don't think one-and-dones should be somehow forced into it. And they are not.

I do think that one year of college teaches you how to play with higher-level opponents and deal with elevated fame. The classes may never be necessary to your life, but the experience will be.

So long as the NBA has a X years out of high school rule (and I think it is a smart rule for them), I think college remains the best use of that time.

[brewcity77]

But you think a single year of college, maybe attending classes, none of which are titled "How to handle millions of dollars instantly 101" will be better?

I think college is misapplied to those talents that could go straight to the NBA or NFL.  It diverts money and roster spots away from people that might otherwise make good use of it and has a negligible impact on those one and done players.

I know this isn't really the issue at hand, but the NBA and NFL are two totally different animals. The reason for the NFL restriction is that 18-year-old kids very rarely have the physical frame to handle the type of physicality they'll face in the NFL. Those extra 2-3 years are needed to build the additional bulk and strength they'll need just to compete. That's why there's never been a strong push for 18-year-olds to be able to play pro football.

In the NBA it's different. Yes, there's contact, but not at the same level. Sure, there are the physical freaks like Lebron that show up, but could guys like Kobe and Kevin Garnett have competed in the NFL from the get-go? Certainly not...they didn't have the bodies for it. You don't need the same sheer size to compete in the NBA. Heck, Kevin Durant was great from the start, and his body wasn't even remotely developed.

[mu03eng]

I know this isn't really the issue at hand, but the NBA and NFL are two totally different animals. The reason for the NFL restriction is that 18-year-old kids very rarely have the physical frame to handle the type of physicality they'll face in the NFL. Those extra 2-3 years are needed to build the additional bulk and strength they'll need just to compete. That's why there's never been a strong push for 18-year-olds to be able to play pro football.

In the NBA it's different. Yes, there's contact, but not at the same level. Sure, there are the physical freaks like Lebron that show up, but could guys like Kobe and Kevin Garnett have competed in the NFL from the get-go? Certainly not...they didn't have the bodies for it. You don't need the same sheer size to compete in the NBA. Heck, Kevin Durant was great from the start, and his body wasn't even remotely developed.

I completely agree with you from a physical readiness standpoint but lets not mandate college.  Give players a choice.  Yes it is going to be much more rare for a football player than a basketball player to go straight to the pros but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen or that we should artificially limit a player's option. 

By forcing players into college we are making a mockery of what college can do for you, plus more than likely teach a lot of 18-22 year olds is ok to circumvent rules(not going to class, etc) because you are special.  That is the worst lesson to be teach some of these kids.  You are actually reducing the effectiveness of college.

[CTWarrior]

No disagreement there, but it also does something fundamental in terms of messing with people's lives.  There are too many kids pushed by their handlers into declaring when they aren't that good.  

The NBA doesn't particularly care about people who aren't yet in their organization and I'm not sure why they should.  Another example of us treating young men like helpless children incapable of taking care of themselves.  People should be responsible for themselves and be allowed to make their own decisions about their future.

I disagree with your assertion that they don't have fair access to their profession.    

Fair access to me means the ability to ply their trade wherever they want if they are good enough at it.  I think the NBA would love to extend the rule to 3 years after high school graduation to take a couple years of salary acceleration away and give them even more evidence to draft properly and to better build the brand of their players before arriving in the NBA.  Should they do that, I'm sure they'll have to start legally defending the policy and that would open up another can of worms they don't need.  Can you imagine Lebron James after his sophomore year of college having to go back for a third?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

But you think a single year of college, maybe attending classes, none of which are titled "How to handle millions of dollars instantly 101" will be better?

I think college is misapplied to those talents that could go straight to the NBA or NFL.  It diverts money and roster spots away from people that might otherwise make good use of it and has a negligible impact on those one and done players.

You're right. I don't think 1 year of college instantly makes a kid ready to handle millions.

BUT, it does reveal some kids who might be super talented, but too immature to balance schoolwork, playing at a high level, travel, etc. at the college level.

I don't think Fab Melo is going to go undrafted because he failed some classes... but it's going to be a consideration when you evaluate him. Is the kid mentally ready to put in the work required? What about the kid from ILL (can't remember his name) who had tons of problems while in school? Might have been drafted coming out of HS, never happened after his ILL experience.

It's not a perfect system, but if I'm the NBA, I love getting some extra looks at how these kids perform in college vs. scouting AAU games.

AND, the NBA is not forcing kids to go to college. It's an age/maturity restriction, so guys go overseas, or a kid could go to JUCO, or just play pick-up for a year and then enter the draft. Hell, he could probably go try-out for the globetrotters if he wanted.

[nathanziarek]

Fair access to me means the ability to ply their trade wherever they want if they are good enough at it.

Fair access would be having the same access as everyone else. And, while knowing the right people and, you know, actually being able to play ball will certainly help, the NBA is being perfectly fair in it's assessment.

I think the NBA would love to extend the rule to 3 years after high school graduation...should they do that, I'm sure they'll have to start legally defending the policy...

Again, how is that different than a company requiring 10 years of experience for a position? Seems to me, in both cases, the enterprise believes X amount of time gives them the best opportunity to evaluate your fit.

[CTWarrior]

Again, how is that different than a company requiring 10 years of experience for a position? Seems to me, in both cases, the enterprise believes X amount of time gives them the best opportunity to evaluate your fit.

First off, a company that requires 10 years experience will ALWAYS back off of that rule if they see someone they like who doesn't have 10 years experience.  Second, if every company at the level of a company with a 10 year rule had the same rule (which is the way it is in the NBA) no one would ever get the job because it would be impossible to get 10 years of experience in a field where you couldn't be hired until you had 10 years experience. 

I understand the need for a doctor or a lawyer to complete their schooling because there is no practical way to demonstrate their ability to handle their profession other than satisfactorily completing schooling, but basketball players can demonstrate their ability in other ways.  Plus, if it doesn't work out or they only play for a couple of years, they can still go to school and pay for it like everyone else.  If they aren't well-schooled enough or bright enough to do that, that is not the NBA's fault or the NBA's problem.

[RawdogDX]

No, I just dispute the notion that college basketball is necessary for some players.  Frankly I wish the one and dones would either go to Europe or the D-League.

You'll start getting your wish gradually over the next two decades.  Pushing the limit to 2 years might exasperate the rate.  

That might be a good thing for the popularity of basketball in Europe.  The europe and college teams competing for top recruits would make for good TV.

[Hoopaloop]

 Can you imagine Lebron James after his sophomore year of college having to go back for a third?

Yes, I can imagine that.  I saw Lew Alcinder do it and he even had to sit his freshman year when they weren't eligible.  Many great players did it time after time after time and they got better, college basketball was better and they became better pros as a result because they were ready .  It is not hard for me to imagine at all.

But you think a single year of college, maybe attending classes, none of which are titled "How to handle millions of dollars instantly 101" will be better?

I think college is misapplied to those talents that could go straight to the NBA or NFL.  It diverts money and roster spots away from people that might otherwise make good use of it and has a negligible impact on those one and done players.

Yes.  It teaches some levels of responsibility that they do not get today.  These guys are not just one and done, they only go to school for one semester and then coast the second semester knowing they are leaving.  They are missing out on some of the maturation process of having to pursue something for multiple years.  Going to class, earning grades, ramifications for not earning those grades, etc.  The maturity that goes along with it.  These are important lessons. 

Think of our own lives. Freshmen year for many of us - what a crazy time trying to get our bearings.  Parties, first time from home, girls, freedom.  By Junior year, we learned to balance all those things out.  Instead, these kids get indoctrinated into the euphoria of Freshman year, hoops hoops hoops, take one semester of classes and then start a second semester in which they coast.  After the season, someone hands them a check for several million dollars.  What could possibly go wrong?  Many of them aren't ready. 

[brewcity77]

Honestly, what this comes down to is really just recognizing the NCAA and colleges for what they are. The NCAA is a business. Guys like Anthony Davis, Austin Rivers, Kyrie Irving, those are just short-time cash cows. I can't imagine them doing anything to jeopardize being able to get those types of talents even for one year because they feel it will improve their product (for better or worse). And the colleges are all like little fiefdoms, looking for their own entertainment. These guys were never there to be students, they were there to be entertainers. To put on a show and give the students, alumni, and fans something to cheer for, while also adding a bit of money in the form of merchandising. Does it cheapen the "scholastic" nature? I guess maybe for some. But if you just realize that for these "students", the "student" aspect was never why they were there in the first place...

I don't know, maybe I'm just rambling. I just don't see any way this will change any time soon. The NBA and other pro sports won't want to spend money developing yet another new feeder league for kids when there is already a AAU/Pop Warner/collegiate system in place that doesn't cost them money, and those said feeder systems won't want to give up what they gain from having these players even for a short time.

[karavotsos]

I think both the NBA and the NFL need to allow players straight from high school.  As the rules are set-up now, quite frankly, its socialism.  

Actually, it's capitalism.  When high school players were allowed to go straight to the pros too many high school kids did and the NBA owners wasted money on players who failed.  The owners make the rules (in large part) and they want to be in a position to make the best investment in players.  The further the players are along in their development, the less risk owners take when making their decisions. 

The owners are not the government.  They are private owners of teams.  The owners, the people with the capital, can set the rules for their private association.  The players association pushes in the other direction on behalf of labor.  The players' association fights for labor who works for free for one year now.  They argue for the labor side who would want to become professionals right out of high school.

These are all private parties, granted organizing into larger groups, with leverage arguing for their rights.  Not sure how that's socialism.  If you want to throw a term around for no reason, why not just call it communism?  Or an Orwellian satanic cult with beastialistic overtones?  Socialism is kind of boring.

[MU82]

I think the NBA would love to extend the rule to 3 years after high school graduation to take a couple years of salary acceleration away and give them even more evidence to draft properly and to better build the brand of their players before arriving in the NBA.  Should they do that, I'm sure they'll have to start legally defending the policy and that would open up another can of worms they don't need.  

The NBA would no more have to legally defend that policy than the NFL has to defend the exact same policy.

Players would be free to ply their trade in any number of venues. The NBA is not saying they have to go to college. I doubt any athlete could win this battle in court. The NBA is a private entity.

That being said, any policy would have to be collectively bargained, and the union is not particularly interested in any policy that would delay the big salaries for two more years.