Poll
Question:
If Syracuse Has To Vacate The Season, Does MU Hang A Banner?
Option 1: Yes
votes: 60
Option 2: No
votes: 141
http://www.suathletics.com/news/2012/3/13/MBB_0313122020.aspx
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/2012/story/_/id/7681715/2012-ncaa-tournament-syracuse-orange-announce-fab-melo-ineligible-tourney
Melo was held out of three games earlier this season while he resolved an academic issue. Syracuse went 2-1 during that absence.
Melo was declared ineligible by Syracuse, not the NCAA, according to Bob Williams, the NCAA vice president of communications. Citing a source, ESPN.com had reported earlier that the NCAA had revisited Melo's previous suspension. Williams said that the NCAA only deals in an athlete's initial eligibility; once a player is on campus, his eligibility is the responsibility of the school.
Discussed here
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=31395.0
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Their is a real possibility that they might have to vacate the season. If so, does the number #2 team win the regular season? That would be MU.
and if that indeed happens, should MU hang a banner as BE regular season champions?
If say yes! If nothing else, the punish has to mean something. If they vacate than Cuse has to come to realization that the season never happened.
Related, should the BE coaches re-vote on BE defensive player of the year?
No. We didn't win the games, and who is to say they wouldn't have won without him?
Vacated seasons by a winning team never go back and declare the losing team the winner.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 13, 2012, 05:43:48 PM
No. We didn't win the games, and who is to say they wouldn't have won without him?
Vacated seasons by a winning team never go back and declare the losing team the winner.
I guess that is my point. If they went back and declared second place the winner, and acted as if the offending team did not even exist, it would offer an extra incentive not to cheat.
Otherwise, their is every incentive to cheat and then get vacated and act as if nothing happened. See Calipari, everyone still says he's been to three final fours. The first two were vacated. Last year was his first.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 13, 2012, 05:43:48 PM
No. We didn't win the games, and who is to say they wouldn't have won without him?
Vacated seasons by a winning team never go back and declare the losing team the winner.
This.
I would guess if they do vacate the BE title, it will remain that way. I don't see them giving it to the #2 team.
The league would just vacates the title, especially with an unbalanced schedule. Some schools played Syracuse twice so they would be doubly impacted.
Let's win one in April. Only one banner means anything to me. Plus the 77 banner needs some company.
We need to take down a number of banners as is, and make a final four run before we put any more up. Granted the VCU banner for their end of the year ranking is bad, but I still cringe just thinking about our Great Alaska Shootout banner...
Is it too late to vacate 'Cuse's NCAA invite?
We did not win the title.....I'm a purist....no banner.
However, that should not stop us from laughing.
No. Ohio State doesn't hang a banner reading "1992 Final Four" because they lost to Michigan in the Elite 8 in a Final Four vacated by UM.
Had we won it outright, yes. But even if they come back and declare us champs, I say no. You hang banners for what you earn on the court, not what's adjucated in the NCAA's court.
Only if it replaced a "We're #2" banner
this is so weak. no. not even a question.
Quote from: JTBMU7 on March 13, 2012, 06:59:56 PM
this is so weak. no. not even a question.
Then what is the incentive to not cheat? If MU had put Gerry Boyle on the case, we would have Montrele Clark as our starting center, we would be a 1 seed and conference champion and gives a sh*t about the rest.
It's time that teams get punished for cheating and we start now. We hang a banner, set the precedent, and let Syracuse know they never existed. Let it serve as a warning for the next cheater.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on March 13, 2012, 07:17:42 PM
Then what is the incentive to not cheat? If MU had put Gerry Boyle on the case, we would have Montrele Clark as our starting center, we would be a 1 seed and conference champion and gives a sh*t about the rest.
It's time that teams get punished for cheating and we start now. We hang a banner, set the precedent, and let Syracuse know they never existed. Let it serve as a warning for the next cheater.
no question that cuse needs to/will be punished. take away their banner, yes(if, in fact, he was ineligible during games they won). put one up in our building? no.
there is no "everyone gets a trophy day" in the big east.
Unless the banner comes with a giant Asterisk...
Quote from: AWegrzyn17 on March 13, 2012, 06:13:00 PM
We need to take down a number of banners as is, and make a final four run before we put any more up. Granted the VCU banner for their end of the year ranking is bad, but I still cringe just thinking about our Great Alaska Shootout banner...
I think the majority of those are taken down in the BC. The banners I can think of are the 77, 74, 2003 banners, and the 1952 Catholic Tournament ones. There may be two conference championship ones.
I don't think Marquette would hang one, but I'm sure Crean would hang one at IU if Cuse's title gets vacated.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on March 13, 2012, 07:17:42 PM
Then what is the incentive to not cheat? If MU had put Gerry Boyle on the case, we would have Montrele Clark as our starting center, we would be a 1 seed and conference champion and gives a sh*t about the rest.
It's time that teams get punished for cheating and we start now. We hang a banner, set the precedent, and let Syracuse know they never existed. Let it serve as a warning for the next cheater.
Whoa, where is there anything of fact the Cuse cheated? He was suspended for academic reasons, but the facts have not come out.
If they had cheated, though, and you vacate their title. Isn't that
their punishment? How does MU hanging a banner add to their punishment?
Definitely no to the banner. We wouldn't have won it on the court, like Brew said.
Definitely yes to the Defensive Player of the Year. Said it in the other thread - I don't see how he got it in the first place, having missed a good number of games due to ineligibility during the regular season.
I have a question....what if this came out or was found out in late April after Syracuse had won the NCAA tournament? Would the team that lost to them claim the Championship? The real reason I ask is that during last year's game I congratulated my brother in a(a Butler graduate) on a national championship because UCONN's season would be vacated....... just asking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conference_USA_Men's_Basketball_Tournament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conference_USA_Men's_Basketball_Tournament)
Granted this is a conference tournament and not a regular season title, but Memphis had to forfeit all of its games and they are still listed as the C-USA champion.
But, if we need it, I4's got a guy.
Syracuse is going to be punished.....they're going to the ACC.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on March 13, 2012, 08:19:15 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conference_USA_Men's_Basketball_Tournament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conference_USA_Men's_Basketball_Tournament)
Granted this is a conference tournament and not a regular season title, but Memphis had to forfeit all of its games and they are still listed as the C-USA champion.
This is why we need to hang a banner, vacating means nothing. If we hang a banner, we make it mean something.
If somebody cheats at the Olympics, Silver Medal gets the Gold, so I say, let's hang a "2012 Big East Champs" banner.
Absolutely not! The primary reason being, Marquette didn't win the conference. It would be bush league and embarassing for Marquette to "claim" the title.
Vacating a tournament win (or wins) is not the same as vacating a season. When you vacate a win, the game itself is vacated. The other team cannot be declared the winner because the game, in effect, does not exist. Conversely, the penalized team isn't given a loss for the same reason.
However, when you vacate a season, that teams games no longer exist, and MU doesn't go from 14-4 to 15-3. Further, vacating Syracuse's season does not affect games played solely amongst the other 15 teams. Therefore, Syracuse's record goes to 0-0 and MU goes to 14-3. Ipso facto, Marquette is the regular season champ.
Don't give me no line about "we didn't earn it." Syracuse earned itself a 0-0. Marquette earned itself a 14-3. Damn straight MU earned it. If the Big East declares it, you hang the banner. If they don't, then all the more reason to win six more games.
just so it doesn't have a golden buzzard(no pun with buzz w.) on it. just MARQUETTE thank you ;D
Quote from: tower912 on March 13, 2012, 08:21:26 PM
Syracuse is going to be punished.....they're going to the ACC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkiQRB0P-5c
How can you possibly think that MU hanging a conference championship banner somehow punishes Syracuse?
Win it all then hang a banner, not some mamby pamby banner we got because Cuse guys dont go to class or can't read.....
Big Fat No!!!!
Quote from: AWegrzyn17 on March 13, 2012, 06:13:00 PM
We need to take down a number of banners as is, and make a final four run before we put any more up. Granted the VCU banner for their end of the year ranking is bad, but I still cringe just thinking about our Great Alaska Shootout banner...
Ah, the agenda of one PR mastermind.
Hell yes.
For all the flack that posters still give Crean for hanging a Great Alaska Shootout banner, I can't believe that so many people are on-board with hanging a Big East "Champions" banner when Marquette didn't win the Big East.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 14, 2012, 09:17:59 AM
For all the flack that posters still give Crean for hanging a Great Alaska Shootout banner, I can't believe that so many people are on-board with hanging a Big East "Champions" banner when Marquette didn't win the Big East.
If Syracuse
used an intelligible player and is forced to vacate their wins, MU will have won the Big East.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 14, 2012, 09:24:02 AM
If Syracuse used an intelligible player and is forced to vacate their wins, MU will have won the Big East.
Did Temple and Georgetown hang Final Four banners when Michigan and UMass vacated their wins in '93 and '96? Does UT-Arlington consider itself the first 16-seed to beat a 1-seed since Memphis vacated that win in 2008? Does Tulsa get to retroactively go to the 2008 NCAA Tournament because they lost the ConfUSA game to Memphis that same year?
This isn't the Miss Big East contest where the runner-up takes the crown if the winner can't fulfill the duties. It's seriously embarassing that people think MU should declare themselves champions.
No you dont hang a banner if they have to vacate the title. Did marquette win the title???? NO and everyone one of our fans nows it. The only way it will ever matter is when all of us are dead and the history book would say we won the title.
Try telling Memphis fans that their team did not go to the title game in 2009.
Technically they did not but you would need to kill ever person who saw the game before it truly takes effect.
This is why I hate when they make a team vacate a title. essentially your trying to tell people to forget what they saw. If you really want to punish these teams have them lose scholarships or money, or shut the program down for the next season.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 14, 2012, 09:17:59 AM
For all the flack that posters still give Crean for hanging a Great Alaska Shootout banner, I can't believe that so many people are on-board with hanging a Big East "Champions" banner when Marquette didn't win the Big East.
I can't understand why people think that in the event Syracuse's season is vacated, the other 15 teams should be penalized for the 126 Big East games played that didn't involve Syracuse.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 14, 2012, 09:39:13 AM
Did Temple and Georgetown hang Final Four banners when Michigan and UMass vacated their wins in '93 and '96? Does UT-Arlington consider itself the first 16-seed to beat a 1-seed since Memphis vacated that win in 2008? Does Tulsa get to retroactively go to the 2008 NCAA Tournament because they lost the ConfUSA game to Memphis that same year?
Quote from: KenoshaWarrior on March 14, 2012, 09:43:37 AM
No you dont hang a banner if they have to vacate the title. Did marquette win the title???? NO and everyone one of our fans nows it. The only way it will ever matter is when all of us are dead and the history book would say we won the title.
Again... the argument here is that if Syracuse's
season is vacated, not their
title. These are two entirely different things... as is a tournament "win." See my earlier post above for an explanation. The latter two would not result in an "elevation of second place," but vacating an entire season could.
Quote from: AWegrzyn17 on March 13, 2012, 06:13:00 PM
We need to take down a number of banners as is, and make a final four run before we put any more up. Granted the VCU banner for their end of the year ranking is bad, but I still cringe just thinking about our Great Alaska Shootout banner...
if the great alaska shootout banner makes ya "cringe", i'd hate to see your reaction to some of the real atrocities in our world. are you a golden domer? in other words, it was a nice accomplishment considering that people were putting us near the bottom of the big east that year, then to finish 4th and ranked in the top 20. it was a great start!!
Quote from: wyzgy on March 14, 2012, 09:54:34 AM
if the great alaska shootout banner makes ya "cringe", i'd hate to see your reaction to some of the real atrocities in our world. are you a golden domer? in other words, it was a nice accomplishment considering that people were putting us near the bottom of the big east that year, then to finish 4th and ranked in the top 20. it was a great start!!
We were still in CUSA when Amo dropped 30 to win the GAS. That was the start of an NIT season.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 14, 2012, 09:39:13 AM
This isn't the Miss Big East contest where the runner-up takes the crown if the winner can't fulfill the duties.
There's a Miss Big East contest? Are tickets available?
Quote from: 96warrior on March 13, 2012, 07:33:15 PM
Definitely no to the banner. We wouldn't have won it on the court, like Brew said.
Definitely yes to the Defensive Player of the Year. Said it in the other thread - I don't see how he got it in the first place, having missed a good number of games due to ineligibility during the regular season.
Agree with this. The banner would be a joke and embarrassment to us. They should re-vote for DPOY though and let a deserving kid get the honor.
Quote from: BrewCity BallCrusher on March 14, 2012, 10:21:59 AM
There's a Miss Big East contest? Are tickets available?
Miss USF is the heavy favorite. Miss Marquette is probably heavy, but not a favorite.
I propose we hang a "Big East Champions 2011-2012" banner that is made of transparent fabric so that everyone can just see right through it.
Quote from: Benny B on March 13, 2012, 09:13:01 PM
Vacating a tournament win (or wins) is not the same as vacating a season. When you vacate a win, the game itself is vacated. The other team cannot be declared the winner because the game, in effect, does not exist. Conversely, the penalized team isn't given a loss for the same reason.
However, when you vacate a season, that teams games no longer exist, and MU doesn't go from 14-4 to 15-3. Further, vacating Syracuse's season does not affect games played solely amongst the other 15 teams. Therefore, Syracuse's record goes to 0-0 and MU goes to 14-3. Ipso facto, Marquette is the regular season champ.
Don't give me no line about "we didn't earn it." Syracuse earned itself a 0-0. Marquette earned itself a 14-3. Damn straight MU earned it. If the Big East declares it, you hang the banner. If they don't, then all the more reason to win six more games.
Very well articulated. If Syracuse's season is vacated, we are the Big East champions whether people like it or not. Can't imagine not hanging a banner if that's the case.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 14, 2012, 10:44:45 AM
Very well articulated. If Syracuse's season is vacated, we are the Big East champions whether people like it or not. Can't imagine not hanging a banner if that's the case.
No, if Syracuse's season is vacated then their conference championship is also vacated meaning there was no official champion for the 2011-12 season.
Option 3) A joke banner that we only hang up when Syracuse comes to play.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 14, 2012, 09:24:02 AM
If Syracuse used an intelligible player and is forced to vacate their wins, MU will have won the Big East.
I think Fab is dumb as a box of nails, but I don't know if that makes him "intelligible". Apparently, he may also have been ineligible.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 14, 2012, 10:59:15 AM
No, if Syracuse's season is vacated then their conference championship is also vacated meaning there was no official champion for the 2011-12 season.
I AGREE 100%
Quote from: leever on March 14, 2012, 01:28:45 PM
I think Fab is dumb as a box of nails, but I don't know if that makes him "intelligible". Apparently, he may also have been ineligible.
He is not only ineligible, he is practically unintelligible. Have you heard him speak?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 14, 2012, 10:59:15 AM
No, if Syracuse's season is vacated then their conference championship is also vacated meaning there was no official champion for the 2011-12 season.
No, if the
season is vacated it means Syracuse was essentially not part of the BE this year. The games do not count. So, everyone moves up a spot. We finished first and Depaul was 15th or last place.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on March 14, 2012, 05:28:42 PM
No, if the season is vacated it means Syracuse was essentially not part of the BE this year. The games do not count. So, everyone moves up a spot. We finished first and Depaul was 15th or last place.
Since Melo didn't play in every game this year, why would the season have to be vacated? Furthermore, how do you handle the schools that had to play Syracuse more than once vs those that had to play them only one time? What about those that played Syracuse on the road vs home.
I've never seen a situation where a vacated spot in sports slides up another team to a championship position. Maybe it has happened, but cannot think of any off the top of my head. Not for a conference championship that is. I've seen where a team at the high school level was denied a playoff invitation and they took the next team in, but didn't award the championship.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on March 14, 2012, 06:57:02 PM
I've never seen a situation where a vacated spot in sports slides up another team to a championship position. Maybe it has happened, but cannot think of any off the top of my head. Not for a conference championship that is. I've seen where a team at the high school level was denied a playoff invitation and they took the next team in, but didn't award the championship.
The Olympics do it. Both at an individual and team level. And they change the outcome well after the fact and send the medals to the newly declared recipients.
College basketball doesn't though.
The only way this happens (which is about a 0.001% chance) is if the Big East comes out and says SU forfeits their games and proclaims MU the regular season champion. I don't even know if they have the power to do that.
if you are interested in a dvd, I'm taking orders for:
MU 2011-12:
Run, then wait awhile, for the title.
A win like no other.
Quote from: RawdogDX on March 15, 2012, 12:47:17 AM
if you are interested in a dvd, I'm taking orders for:
MU 2011-12:
Run, then wait awhile, for the title.
A win like no other.
Does this qualify as a haiku?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on March 14, 2012, 10:31:55 PM
College basketball doesn't though.
The only way this happens (which is about a 0.001% chance) is if the Big East comes out and says SU forfeits their games and proclaims MU the regular season champion. I don't even know if they have the power to do that.
That's the word I wanted... "forfeit" not "vacate." My bad.