This may have been discusssed before, but he looks like he is shooting with stiff legs which means all arms propelling the FT. Awkward looking and ineffective. Please Vander, bend your legs!
Same terrible technique he has when slappin' five.
Quote from: ATWizJr on January 01, 2012, 06:41:56 PM
This may have been discusssed before, but he looks like he is shooting with stiff legs which means all arms propelling the FT. Awkward looking and ineffective. Please Vander, bend your legs!
I don't recall this specific topic, but you are correct. He does his shoot FT's a bit stiff. In fact, many of his shots are a little stiff. When he squares on his 3 attempts and shoots more of a set shot, he has better knee bend, but still, not as much.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 01, 2012, 06:46:53 PM
Same terrible technique he has when slappin' five.
Damn it, you beat me to it by less than 10 minutes!
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 01, 2012, 06:46:53 PM
Same terrible technique he has when slappin' five.
Also similar to your technique of beating the dead horse.
He has alligator arms and flicks the ball. The rotation on the ball is crazy high.
Quote from: Untucked on January 01, 2012, 07:06:27 PM
He has alligator arms and flicks the ball. The rotation on the ball is crazy high.
Around the FT line, during action, he sometimes looks like he has a shot put. On those shots, I would rather he elevate and shoot with his wrists.
Looks to me like he shoots the ball from well back in his palm rather than his finger tips.
Quote from: MUMac on January 01, 2012, 06:47:23 PM
I don't recall this specific topic, but you are correct. He does his shoot FT's a bit stiff. In fact, many of his shots are a little stiff. When he squares on his 3 attempts and shoots more of a set shot, he has better knee bend, but still, not as much.
Quote from: MUMac on January 01, 2012, 07:21:11 PM
Around the FT line, during action, he sometimes looks like he has a shot put. On those shots, I would rather he elevate and shoot with his wrists.
You must be a Vander hater. How dare you write anything critical about Vander.
Quote from: Ners on January 01, 2012, 09:13:03 PM
You must be a Vander hater. How dare you write anything critical about Vander.
Give it a rest. When did I call you a Vander hater? I will anxiously await your response ... lol
You acted like an a$$ and were called out ... again, just this time by me (and others). Now you are acting like a grade school girl. This shouldn't be too hard for you to accept or understand by now. You seem to bring this on a lot on this board. Maybe it's time for some self reflection, ners.
Quote from: Ners on January 01, 2012, 09:13:03 PM
You must be a Vander hater. How dare you write anything critical about Vander.
Ners,
There are several parts of vander's game that aren't very good and can be critiqued.
You're getting ripped on because you are bringing up high-fives and then extrapolating from there. It's silly. You know that.
Quote from: MUMac on January 01, 2012, 09:28:09 PM
Give it a rest. When did I call you a Vander hater? I will anxiously await your response ... lol
You acted like an a$$ and were called out ... again, just this time by me (and others). Now you are acting like a grade school girl. This shouldn't be too hard for you to accept or understand by now. You seem to bring this on a lot on this board. Maybe it's time for some self reflection, ners.
Love the guy who tells others they need to self reflect, maybe take a break from posting, and criticizes one for name calling...then goes on in 1 post to say I: acted like an ass, and a grade school girl. Double standard ever Mac?
And...never said you were a Vander hater (hypersensitive ever?). It was a reference to other posters here who called me a Vander hater because I started a thread about Vander being a dick of a teammate..which Mike Kelly seemed to think was the case too. See how it works Mac - I post something critical of Vander I'm a hater...I support MU through and through and get called a fan boy etc...pretty much a mind f*ck. Perhaps you can reflect on that...
When I first saw Blue shoot a free throw last year, I couldn't believe that he made it through high school with such a poor technique. Now here he is a sophomore on a Big East team, and he's still shot putting the ball up there.
I don't get it.
Quote from: Ners on January 01, 2012, 09:48:38 PM
Love the guy who tells others they need to self reflect, maybe take a break from posting, and criticizes one for name calling...then goes on in 1 post to say I: acted like an ass, and a grade school girl. Double standard ever Mac?
And...never said you were a Vander hater (hypersensitive ever?). It was a reference to other posters here who called me a Vander hater because I started a thread about Vander being a dick of a teammate..which Mike Kelly seemed to think was the case too. See how it works Mac - I post something critical of Vander I'm a hater...I support MU through and through and get called a fan boy etc...pretty much a mind f*ck. Perhaps you can reflect on that...
Dude. Please give it a rest. This is a fan board, and not about you.
Quote from: Ners on January 01, 2012, 09:48:38 PM
Love the guy who tells others they need to self reflect, maybe take a break from posting, and criticizes one for name calling...then goes on in 1 post to say I: acted like an ass, and a grade school girl. Double standard ever Mac?
And...never said you were a Vander hater (hypersensitive ever?). It was a reference to other posters here who called me a Vander hater because I started a thread about Vander being a dick of a teammate..which Mike Kelly seemed to think was the case too. See how it works Mac - I post something critical of Vander I'm a hater...I support MU through and through and get called a fan boy etc...pretty much a mind f*ck. Perhaps you can reflect on that...
Did you ever notice that you get into more of "these type" of arguments than anyone else???
Quote from: 2002MUalum on January 01, 2012, 09:29:19 PM
Ners,
There are several parts of vander's game that aren't very good and can be critiqued.
You're getting ripped on because you are bringing up high-fives and then extrapolating from there. It's silly. You know that.
Your right. There are several parts of his game that are bad but you can't critique his game here without having your fan hood questioned.
Quote from: ATWizJr on January 01, 2012, 06:41:56 PM
This may have been discusssed before, but he looks like he is shooting with stiff legs which means all arms propelling the FT. Awkward looking and ineffective. Please Vander, bend your legs!
While no one is taught to shoot with stiff legs, it has its merits. It is an extra motion that isn't necessary provided you have plenty of strength to get it there with just your arms.
Quote from: ErickJD08 on January 01, 2012, 11:12:03 PM
Your right. There are several parts of his game that are bad but you can't critique his game here without having your fan hood questioned.
Nope. Not really.
We talked about this about a month ago.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=28559.msg329807#msg329807
Nit-picking Blue's every move, or bitching after he has a bad game will start a fight rather than a discussion.
If you want to have a discussion, then discuss the actual pros and cons of his game.
Quote from: DomJamesToTheBasket on January 01, 2012, 11:39:19 PM
While no one is taught to shoot with stiff legs, it has its merits. It is an extra motion that isn't necessary provided you have plenty of strength to get it there with just your arms.
No you should always use your legs when you shoot free throws. It mimics the motion of a jump shot and keeps you more consistent when you are tired.
Quote from: ErickJD08 on January 01, 2012, 11:12:03 PM
Your right. There are several parts of his game that are bad but you can't critique his game here without having your fan hood questioned.
I would never question your fanhood. I will question your understanding of the game of basketball however.
Vander doesn't get the ball up on his finger tips. He shoots the ball from his palm. This is something that is usually corrected once you have enough strength to shoot the ball properly.
He obviously has the strength, I am surprised this hasn't been corrected.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 02, 2012, 09:14:05 AM
I would never question your fanhood. I will question your understanding of the game of basketball however.
Here we go again, sultan and Mac know more about the game than anyone else on the board. Everyone should message them before posting.
Quote from: schubert33 on January 02, 2012, 09:21:59 AM
Vander doesn't get the ball up on his finger tips. He shoots the ball from his palm. This is something that is usually corrected once you have enough strength to shoot the ball properly.
He obviously has the strength, I am surprised this hasn't been corrected.
Lenny's Tap and Schubert are correct re Vander's major free throw (and probably jumper) flaw is that he shoots the ball out of his palm rather than more through the shooting hand fingers tips. Someone else above described it as a shotput look, which is indeed his technique...which leads to "no touch". My seat gives me a good look at the free throw line and I particularly watched Vander closely yesterday at the line.
I would hazard a guess that Vander (or some coach) took the flex out of his knees to try to limit motion for a consistent FT motion. The +/- of that technique depends which side of the coaching shooting philosophy you are on (similar to golf in advocating no lower body movement on pitches). Vander's major FT problem is the shooting hand not guiding the ball with his finger tips. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that it is a long ingrained bad habit... wonder what his FT % was his JR and Sr years of HS? I bet it wasn't great.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on January 02, 2012, 09:44:00 AM
Here we go again, sultan and Mac know more about the game than anyone else on the board. Everyone should message them before posting.
That's OK. Unless Mac wants to do this, it's way too much trouble on my end.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 02, 2012, 09:48:21 AM
That's OK. Unless Mac wants to do this, it's way too much trouble on my end.
Really? You spend the better part of your days posting drivel on this board.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 02, 2012, 09:48:21 AM
That's OK. Unless Mac wants to do this, it's way too much trouble on my end.
While that was likely the best post ever by esotericmindguy, I agree with Sultan. Far too much trouble. But I appreciate the sentiment.
Quote from: MUMac on January 02, 2012, 10:00:04 AM
While that was likely the best post ever by esotericmindguy,
Not a high bar to jump over...
Fact of the matter is, every time you're backed into a corner in a discussion you two just simply claim that the opposing poster just simply doesn't know basketball. Pretty convenient.
BTW, since our Blue discussion Vander has played 6 minutes under his average, Buzz obviously doesn't know basketball and is clearly just focusing on the offensive end.
<sigh>
You *still* don't seem to get what I have been saying regarding Blue. I have been saying that Blue has played very well...better than most people seem to think. I fully acknowledged that he played poorly against UWM and Vandy, and that Mayo should get more minutes. But yesterday was a typical example of the lack of understanding of what Blue brings to the floor....he has a solid game (as I said, not a great game) with a nice overall stat line. Too many turnovers (although hardly excessive) and missed FTs though. Furthermore, he had another very nice defensive effort, preventing penetration by Nova's guards...keeping them far out on the perimeter.
But people focus on the negative...including people literally calling him a "punk" because he didn't slap hands with a teammate. Furthermore, I think a lot of this crap was fueled by the ridiculous comments by Mike Kelly including the "well, everyone around here is calling for Mayo to start and you have to be concerned about how that would affect him." What? That's just silly. Mayo is *deservedly* playing more because of his offense, and Blue doesn't seem to have a problem.
I'm sorry, but when I see comments like that, I seriously have to wonder how much people know the game. Go back to Wes Matthews sophomore year. His stats are almost identical to Blue's this year... Wes played more...scored more...turned the ball over more... Blue has more assists and steals. They shot almost identical. Yet Wes grew to become an NBA regular!!!!
11-12 Blue: 27.3 min, 9.6 pts, 4.1 rebs, 3.3 assts, 1.8 steals, 2.3 TOs, 43.1 FG%, 28.6 3FG%
06-07 Wes: 31.2 min, 12.6 pts, 5.3 rebs, 2.2 assts, 1.4 steals, 2.5 TOs, 43.8 FG%, 28.8 3FG%
I don't remember *anyone* saying nearly the same types of things about Wes as they do about Vander. It's almost inexplicable.
The explanation is simple. Blue matriculated with greater credentials and a corresponding higher ceiling than Wes. Thus, the frustration. And, I think it shows not just with fans, but, it's obviously that Vander is troubled as well. I wonder just how happy he is at Marquette.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 02, 2012, 11:44:42 AM
The explanation is simple. Blue matriculated with greater credentials and a corresponding higher ceiling than Wes. Thus, the frustration. And, I think it shows not just with fans, but, it's obviously that Vander is troubled as well. I wonder just how happy he is at Marquette.
I agree that part of it was higher expectations. I also think that Blue is more emotional and less mature than Wes was. But that should color what they both objectively bring (brought) to the floor at this stages of their careers.
Sultan--VB is leading the team in TOs. 66% FT shooter. 43% from the floor and 29% from 3s. I don't think it is reasonable to think that these numbers will improve over the 'harder' part of the schedule.
Again, these cannot be the production numbers that you have prviously stated when you said that you expect a significant jump between his Frosh and Soph year is it? I know, I know..he's a shutdown corner and you can't put a number on that.
I don't think they are close personally, and Sultan I know it's hard for you to imagine but I do understand your argument and choose to disagree. Its funny how you're using stats to evaluate Vander's performance vs. Wes, but I was told by you to look beyond the box score to see what Blue offers. Furthermore, if you look at Vander's stats vs top competition it's not even comparable to Wes. Blue entered conference last year with the same numbers as this year and finished much much lower. Wes significantly improved his stats during conference play his sophomore year, based on Blue's performance year to date I highly doubt he'll do that. I'd think someone with such a high level of basketball knowledge would be able to pick up on that. At this point calling him marginal or average is at the very least an opinion you can argue, don't you agree?
One thing I do agree with is the high five thing, he's very competitive and didn't want to give a high five after missing two more free throws.
I'll do my best in 2012 to write acceptable posts for you and mac to, sigh, have to waste you valuable time on responding.
Quote from: We R Final Four on January 02, 2012, 12:30:54 PM
Again, these cannot be the production numbers that you have prviously stated when you said that you expect a significant jump between his Frosh and Soph year is it?
Did I say that? I literally just went through all of my posts since June and I didn't see anything that say I thought he would make a "significant jump." I said that he would be improved...which he has...and that he would drive this board crazy...which he has.
If you can find it, I would happily admit that I have been wrong so far - his improvement has clearly not been "significant."
Quote from: esotericmindguy on January 02, 2012, 12:46:51 PM
I don't think they are close personally, and Sultan I know it's hard for you to imagine but I do understand your argument and choose to disagree. Its funny how you're using stats to evaluate Vander's performance vs. Wes, but I was told by you to look beyond the box score to see what Blue offers. Furthermore, if you look at Vander's stats vs top competition it's not even comparable to Wes. Blue entered conference last year with the same numbers as this year and finished much much lower. Wes significantly improved his stats during conference play his sophomore year, based on Blue's performance year to date I highly doubt he'll do that. I'd think someone with such a high level of basketball knowledge would be able to pick up on that. At this point calling him marginal or average is at the very least an opinion you can argue, don't you agree?
Maybe we just have different definitions of the word marginal. I view D Wilson as marginal. I view Jamail Jones as marginal. I don't view a starter that plays 20+ minutes a game, and defends as well as he does, as marginal.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 02, 2012, 01:41:01 PM
Did I say that? I literally just went through all of my posts since June and I didn't see anything that say I thought he would make a "significant jump." I said that he would be improved...which he has...and that he would drive this board crazy...which he has.
If you can find it, I would happily admit that I have been wrong so far - his improvement has clearly not been "significant."
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on June 03, 2011, 12:32:45 PM
Vander is definately going to see an increase in minutes next year. I don't think from 19 mpg to 25 mpg is that much of a stretch. What other options are there? Like it or not, him and Junior are essentially tied as the guards with the second most experience.
And I think he improves quite a bit going into year two.
Ok--cannot agree with you that VB has improved quite a bit.
Quote from: We R Final Four on January 02, 2012, 02:27:15 PM
Ok--cannot agree with you that VB has improved quite a bit.
Burn.
Quote from: We R Final Four on January 02, 2012, 02:27:15 PM
Ok--cannot agree with you that VB has improved quite a bit.
I would agree that "quite a bit" is a stretch. BTW, if you REALLY wanted to knock me you could have pointed out in the same thread that I thought that Jamail would play a larger role than Mayo.
Quote from: ErickJD08 on January 02, 2012, 02:37:55 PM
Burn.
Yeah...whatever will I do to live that down.
Quote from: We R Final Four on January 02, 2012, 12:30:54 PM
Sultan--VB is leading the team in TOs. 66% FT shooter. 43% from the floor and 29% from 3s. I don't think it is reasonable to think that these numbers will improve over the 'harder' part of the schedule.
Again, these cannot be the production numbers that you have prviously stated when you said that you expect a significant jump between his Frosh and Soph year is it? I know, I know..he's a shutdown corner and you can't put a number on that.
It's interesting that you brought up the %'s. I compared the stat lines of Mayo and Blue. Mayo is significantly better at FT %, 3 Pt. % and TO's. FG % is nearly identical, they have taken the same number of shots, Blue has made one more than Mayo. Outside of that, though, Blue's stats are significantly better than Mayo's in every other category. Rebounds (offense and defense), assists, blocks and steals. They are similar size and play similar positions for MU. Mayo is a year + older than Blue and some are saying they think Mayo will leave for the league early.
That is the frustration that I and others have with the constant harping on Blue. He has deficiencies on offense. But, it seems as though every time people are critical of him, they do not consider the other aspects of his game.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 02, 2012, 02:41:15 PM
I would agree that "quite a bit" is a stretch. BTW, if you REALLY wanted to knock me you could have pointed out in the same thread that I thought that Jamail would play a larger role than Mayo.
Yeah...whatever will I do to live that down.
It's all good and fun. First, no way anyone could have predicted Mayo's early production. Second, I too thought Blue was going to make a big step. I thought all it would take is one off season to lifting and practice to be more effective around the basket. That certainly hasn't been the case. I was wrong too. Funny thing is that people want to believe that he is progressing so badly that they don't realize how far away he really is.
Quote from: MUMac on January 02, 2012, 02:57:01 PM
It's interesting that you brought up the %'s. I compared the stat lines of Mayo and Blue. Mayo is significantly better at FT %, 3 Pt. % and TO's. FG % is nearly identical, they have taken the same number of shots, Blue has made one more than Mayo. Outside of that, though, Blue's stats are significantly better than Mayo's in every other category. Rebounds (offense and defense), assists, blocks and steals. They are similar size and play similar positions for MU. Mayo is a year + older than Blue and some are saying they think Mayo will leave for the league early.
That is the frustration that I and others have with the constant harping on Blue. He has deficiencies on offense. But, it seems as though every time people are critical of him, they do not consider the other aspects of his game.
So what you are saying is that every time someone is critical of the kid, they need to finish the statement with "he plays good defense and rebounds well".
And BTW, one other stat Blue leads Mayo in is minutes. Blue plays 35% more than Mayo. Quite frankly, I don't think either one of them have been outstanding against higher competition. We can bring up stats but it is clear that Mayo brings a TON more to the table on the offensive end. Mayo can shoot the 3 (which is important because we don't have a ton of shooters) , mid range, and can finish. I would be perfectly happy with Buzz continually doing the situational subbing with those guys.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 02, 2012, 02:41:15 PM
I would agree that "quite a bit" is a stretch. BTW, if you REALLY wanted to knock me you could have pointed out in the same thread that I thought that Jamail would play a larger role than Mayo.
Yeah...whatever will I do to live that down.
Sultan, I REALLY don't want to knowck you, that is not what this is-at least for me. I just hope that Vander becomes the player that you think that he will.
Quote from: ErickJD08 on January 02, 2012, 03:27:06 PM
So what you are saying is that every time someone is critical of the kid, they need to finish the statement with "he plays good defense and rebounds well".
If that's what you got out of that, well, that explains a lot of the frustrating debates ... ::)
Quote from: MUMac on January 02, 2012, 04:59:51 PM
If that's what you got out of that, well, that explains a lot of the frustrating debates ... ::)
How about explaining? You just said he has defeciencies on offense but people ignore other aspects of the game. Therefore, you get frustrated when people criticize a part of his game without saying something that he does well.
Would love to read about another interpretation of what you said.
Quote from: ErickJD08 on January 02, 2012, 05:14:13 PM
How about explaining? You just said he has defeciencies on offense but people ignore other aspects of the game. Therefore, you get frustrated when people criticize a part of his game without saying something that he does well.
Would love to read about another interpretation of what you said.
Where did I state the frustration you say above? Have you read any of the threads on Blue this year? You must have, you are one of his biggest critics. Just go back and read the responses, that should help you understand. One side acknowledges deficiencies, but also recognizes his strengths and values. The other side tends to be focused solely on the offensive deficiencies and does not acknowledge the other aspects of his game. If you don't understand, frankly there is nothing I could say to help you any longer.
Quote from: MUMac on January 02, 2012, 02:57:01 PM
It's interesting that you brought up the %'s. I compared the stat lines of Mayo and Blue. Mayo is significantly better at FT %, 3 Pt. % and TO's. FG % is nearly identical, they have taken the same number of shots, Blue has made one more than Mayo. Outside of that, though, Blue's stats are significantly better than Mayo's in every other category. Rebounds (offense and defense), assists, blocks and steals. They are similar size and play similar positions for MU. Mayo is a year + older than Blue and some are saying they think Mayo will leave for the league early.
That is the frustration that I and others have with the constant harping on Blue. He has deficiencies on offense. But, it seems as though every time people are critical of him, they do not consider the other aspects of his game.
I read your posts but you see to forget your own words. The second paragraph references the frustration I quoted you on.
Quote from: ErickJD08 on January 02, 2012, 05:46:55 PM
I read your posts but you see to forget your own words. The second paragraph references the frustration I quoted you on.
See, you made up words in your response. Making up a comment on your part does not constitute my forgetting my own words. Hard to forget them when I did not say them.
Have at the response if you like. I think the board can do without further silliness, so I am done.
Quote from: MUMac on January 02, 2012, 05:56:17 PM
See, you made up words in your response. Making up a comment on your part does not constitute my forgetting my own words. Hard to forget them when I did not say them.
Have at the response if you like. I think the board can do without further silliness, so I am done.
Lol. I just owned you. That's all.
Quote from: ErickJD08 on January 02, 2012, 06:31:41 PM
Lol. I just owned you. That's all.
Are you having a nice dream?