I know this thread has probably been posted a dozen times, but I thought i would start one up again
Here is my projected starting Line up with projected stats, thoughts?
1 Cadougan 6 ppg 4.5 apg
2 DJO 18ppg
3 Jamil Wilson 10ppg 5 rpg
4 Jae Crowder 14ppg 7 rpg
5 Chris Otule 8 ppg 6rpg
I think you nailed it. No discussion here... that is one heck of a starting line up, BTW.
The second 5 ain't too shabby either.
Unless buzz does something strange like with ewill last year that is likely it. The real questions will be...
Who is back up point? Dwil or Blue?
Who is back up at forward? Juan or Jamail?
How often do we go small with neither Otule or Ox on the floor? How often do we go big with both?
Who is going to have a lot of bench time? Mayo? Jamail? At some point you can't have a 11 man rotation.
I feel real good about where we are going though.
Man--does that look good. I can't frickin wait!
Agreed. Nailing down the next 3 off the bench is hard.
Of course, it's probably situationally based (i.e., foul trouble, injuries).
I'd guess:
6) Davante
7) Vander
8) Jamail
FWIW
@JonRothstein
Jon Rothstein Hearing Marquette frosh Todd Mayo in mix for major mins in Golden Eagles backcourt w DJO, Jr Cadougan, + Vander Blue.
Quote from: flash on October 05, 2011, 04:34:27 PM
I know this thread has probably been posted a dozen times, but I thought i would start one up again
Here is my projected starting Line up with projected stats, thoughts?
1 Cadougan 6 ppg 4.5 apg
2 DJO 18ppg
3 Jamil Wilson 10ppg 5 rpg
4 Jae Crowder 14ppg 7 rpg
5 Chris Otule 8 ppg 6rpg
Why are you talking about Marquette basketball instead of realignment on these pages :-)
Love it. I believe Davante plays more minutes than Otule, but agree that shoudl be the line-up.
The thing I keep hoping is that we do a lot of high pressure, 5-for-5 subs whenever we need to speed it up.
The whole roster can play now. I just keep remembering how dominant MU was when we shocked everyone by rolling through Michigan, Xaver and Florida State for more than 30 minutes two years ago, but then Buzz had to pull back because we just weren't deep enough. This year even though the roster isn't full, we can play that game of cutting off every passing lane and then rotating a fresh 5 if we want too.
I believe Buzz's defenses are very good when we are contesting every passing lane, but mediocre when we don't, so that's my hope.
I could be completely wrong, and maybe the traditional 8 man rotation is still best, but man we would be leaving a lot of talent on the bench even with that great 8-man rotatoin.
I can't remember going into a season with so close to a sure thing for the first 5. The only potential adjustment I could see happening is Davante "forcing" his way into a starter role....especially if he is moving like Hester! ;D
I think Otule starts even if DG's conditioning is immensely improved simply because he is always going to be the better defender. DG will come in and be the top offensive option off of the bench, as well as changing the pace, but start CO to establish your defense and then bring in DG.
In the past Buzz has played a short rotation out of necessity. We have 7 proven contributors this year. Jones gets first shot at #8. Here's hoping some combo of Anderson, Mayo and Wilson force (or allow) Buzz to expand from there by their play. Mayo could be the "instant offense" component we've missed off the bench lately.
Quote from: tower912 on October 05, 2011, 07:13:07 PM
I think Otule starts even if DG's conditioning is immensely improved simply because he is always going to be the better defender. DG will come in and be the top offensive option off of the bench, as well as changing the pace, but start CO to establish your defense and then bring in DG.
I'd agree. There are so many variables (fouls, match-ups, etc.) but Buzz typically brings offense off the bench, and starts the better defender. Interesting that Mayo's name keeps coming up. Seems like he's emerging as the most ready to play. Anderson had/has a lot of hype, but I was less than impressed watching him this summer (and understanding the setting).
If Mayo is progressing as quickly as reported, this could lead to more 3 guard sets. And is he progressing as a 1 or a 2? If as a 2, who will be the back-up 1? I agree that it is nice to know who the top 7 are. A blessing we don't often have. The big questions are who will get the minutes backing up the point and who will be the first forward off of the bench, JJ or JA?
To me it isn't a surprise to hear Mayo is showing well - what he did the last half of his year at Notre Dame prep - playing against and with Top Flight players - puts him far ahead of a typical recruit coming in from a normal high school program. Combine his performance there with his bloodlines - it just seemed he could be an early contributor.
I've never seen him play, but have said from Day 1 of seeing different highlight videos - he plays with great tempo, pace, and cerebral-ness. He reminds me a lot of D-Wade in this sense - though not as explosive as D-Wade.
Last thought - how much better are all of these guys getting simply by having to compete against each other each and every day in practice. Now that Buzz has 10/11 true high major guys - the opportunity for growth as a player/toughness through the competition is sure to yield maximum potential being reached for all the guys...which should lead to great team results.
I really hope Buzz finds a starting line up early, before big east play and sticks with it. Last year he played musical chairs with the starting line up and i think it really hurt the team. The players do better when the know their rolls, starter, or bench player. I also hated what Buzz did not starting DJO in the beginning of the season, and I hated even more how he started EWill, played him for 2 minutes then didn't play him for the rest of the game.
Quote from: tower912 on October 05, 2011, 07:13:07 PM
I think Otule starts even if DG's conditioning is immensely improved simply because he is always going to be the better defender. DG will come in and be the top offensive option off of the bench, as well as changing the pace, but start CO to establish your defense and then bring in DG.
I think so too. There is enough offense to go around in that first 5, and Otule is a better defender and rebounder. Devante will have an important role providing a jolt of offense off the bench... I really like spelling Otule with Gardner, it gives the other team's defender something totally different to deal with.
Something tells me that one of the Frosh will end up getting meaningful minutes. Frankly, watching the young players develop is my favorite part of the early season games.
Quote from: shiloh26 on October 05, 2011, 07:40:28 PM
I think so too. There is enough offense to go around in that first 5, and Otule is a better defender and rebounder. Devante will have an important role providing a jolt of offense off the bench... I really like spelling Otule with Gardner, it gives the other team's defender something totally different to deal with.
I'm not sold on Otule being the better rebounder, but he is definitely the better defender. Gardner just makes a lot more sense being the 6th man with his scoring punch coming off the bench. If we had Otule, Vander, and Jamail the first coming in off the bench our offense would take a nose dive.
According to my basketball sources (I feel like such an clown even saying that), Derrick Wilson has looked pretty impressive in these early practice sessions. For now, I'd expect him to be backing up Cadougan at point and getting 5-10 minutes per game.
Conversely, I've actually heard Mayo hasn't looked so hot, even on the offensive end. It's still very early (we'll know a lot more once they start full-group practice), but I find it interesting Rothstein would tweet something like that given what I've heard about his performance.
Quote from: MUStudent on October 05, 2011, 07:52:14 PM
According to my basketball sources (I feel like such an clown even saying that), Derrick Wilson has looked pretty impressive in these early practice sessions. For now, I'd expect him to be backing up Cadougan at point and getting 5-10 minutes per game.
Conversely, I've actually heard Mayo hasn't looked so hot, even on the offensive end. It's still very early (we'll know a lot more once they start full-group practice), but I find it interesting Rothstein would tweet something like that given what I've heard about his performance.
Not to knock the word on the street as I do appreciate it, but Rothstein's source on Mayo is a Marquette coach sitting right next to him. Also told him that JWil is tearing it up at times. Key with JWil will be consistency, in my mind.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on October 05, 2011, 08:16:31 PM
Not to knock the word on the street as I do appreciate it, but Rothstein's source on Mayo is a Marquette coach sitting right next to him. Also told him that JWil is tearing it up at times. Key with JWil will be consistency, in my mind.
I'll gladly take both sources, and combine all the "good" stuff to assume, Derrick, Todd, and Jamil are all doing great ;D
Of course, this leaves me concerned that nobody is saying anything good about Juan!
Quote from: rocky_warrior on October 05, 2011, 08:26:47 PM
I'll gladly take both sources, and combine all the "good" stuff to assume, Derrick, Todd, and Jamil are all doing great ;D
For sure, and they are probably both right, especially considering he is a frosh.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on October 05, 2011, 08:16:31 PM
Not to knock the word on the street as I do appreciate it, but Rothstein's source on Mayo is a Marquette coach sitting right next to him. Also told him that JWil is tearing it up at times. Key with JWil will be consistency, in my mind.
Hey, sounds good to me! As long as MU coaches are happy with his progress, I surely am too.
Quote from: flash on October 05, 2011, 04:34:27 PM
I know this thread has probably been posted a dozen times, but I thought i would start one up again
Here is my projected starting Line up with projected stats, thoughts?
1 Cadougan 6 ppg 4.5 apg
2 DJO 18ppg
3 Jamil Wilson 10ppg 5 rpg
4 Jae Crowder 14ppg 7 rpg
5 Chris Otule 8 ppg 6rpg
My first thought is that this year is the most cut-and-dried starting lineup since Buzz's first year. My second is that you're underestimating DJO's points. I think he's really going to light it up. I'd pencil him in for 21+ ppg this year.
Quote from: brewcity77 on October 05, 2011, 08:55:52 PM
My first thought is that this year is the most cut-and-dried starting lineup since Buzz's first year. My second is that you're underestimating DJO's points. I think he's really going to light it up. I'd pencil him in for 21+ ppg this year.
Wow. I think you're predicting way too much from him. I expect him to have a good season, but Dwyane Wade averaged 21.5 ppg the year he lead us to the Final Four and was selected with the #5 overall draft pick. And that was in the CUSA. If DJO averages 21+ ppg this year I will be shocked and admit that I am wrong. I would guess 16-17 ppg.
Lazar averaged 18 ppg his senior year and Jimmy averaged 16 ppg his senior year.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 05, 2011, 09:53:16 PM
Wow. I think you're predicting way too much from him. I expect him to have a good season, but Dwyane Wade averaged 21.5 ppg the year he lead us to the Final Four and was selected with the #5 overall draft pick. And that was in the CUSA. If DJO averages 21+ ppg this year I will be shocked and admit that I am wrong. I would guess 16-17 ppg.
Lazar averaged 18 ppg his senior year and Jimmy averaged 16 ppg his senior year.
DJO struggled with his shooting for large stretches of last season, and still managed to average 16 ppg. I think 21 might be a little too much, but 18-19 ppg seems attainable if he can improve his shooting percentage.
DJO 16 last year
Add 1 more 3, one more 2 and 2 more free throws and he is at 23. Will he, I do not know, but it is not hard imagining him being able to do this especially if his shooting percentages improve.
You realize that adding "one" three pointer a game is a 4% increase in MU's overall scoring for the season? Not exactly a toss in?
Since Marquette has joined the Big East in 2005, a total of 7 players have averaged over 20 ppg from the Big East, with 1 of them doing it in 3 different seasons and another doing it in 2 different seasons. So a total of 10 seasons have been played by a player where he averaged 20 ppg or more in the Big East in the 6 years Marquette has been a part of the Big East. Of these 10 seasons, 4 of them were from players whose teams made it to the NCAA Tournament, while 6 were from players on teams that missed the NCAA Tournament. 9 of these players were on teams in which they were relied on to score a very large portion of their teams points, while just one was on a team that had some balance to it.
In 2010-2011, only 2 players in the Big East scored over 20 ppg. Marshawn Brooks (25) and Kemba Walker (21) they were both players that were leaned on to score a large portion of their team's points.
In 2009-2010, only 3 players averaged over 20 ppg. Harangody (22), Dominique Jones from USF (21) and Hazell (20). Again, these are all guys who were leaned on to score disproportionate amount of their team's points, and 2 of the 3 teams were awful teams.
In 2008-2009, only Harangody (23) and Hazell (23) averaged over 20 ppg, with McNeal just under it. Notre Dame was terrible that year and Seton Hall is always terrible.
In 2007-2008, only Luke Harangody averaged over 20 ppg (20.4). They were very good that year.
In 2006-2007, not a single player averaged even 19 ppg in the Big East.
In 2005-2006, only Quincy Douby for Rutgers (25) and Randy Foye (20.5) averaged over 20 ppg. Rutgers was terrible, and Randy Foye I would say is the biggest exception to what I am pointing out, as Villinova was stacked and balanced (at least between 3 studs much like a slightly better version of Matthews, James, McNeal).
With all of the talk about how balanced the team will be this year, how Buzz finally has 11 high-major players, how we will be able to sub 5 guys at a time, how we will finally have more than a 7 person rotation, etc., I just do not see how any one player is going to score 20+ ppg for us next year. If somebody does, then I worry that we are not nearly as deep or balanced as everyone seems to think. Obviously, Kemba Walker and UConn had a successful year, but I think that is an exception to the rule. I think when you see a guy averaging a ridiculous amount of points, his team typically stinks and he is throwing up 30 shots a game like Brooks for Providence and Jeremy Hazzell when he was at Seton Hall. I think averaging 20 ppg over an entire season is an extremely difficult thing to do, especially in a conference like the Big East where every night you are grinding and battling, and on a team where there is supposed to be a ton of talent all around and scoring coming from everyone. If I am wrong, again, I will gladly admit to it at the end of the season. I just do not see it.
It would also be interesting to look into how often a player that already leads his team in scoring/is already the star of the team as a junior makes a jump of 5+ ppg in his senior season. My guess is that it doesn't happen very often.
DJO's scoring avg. might actually be determinrd by the other guards.
If Blue and Cadougan can shoot well enough to provide some effective outside scoring, DJO will avg. 17 (efficiently). If they can't, DJO might have to be more of a volume shooter and could avg. 20+, but probably not as efficient. Can't be picky on jumpers when you are the only guard that can make them.*
*frosh. 3pt abilities are TBD.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 06, 2011, 12:11:52 AMIt would also be interesting to look into how often a player that already leads his team in scoring/is already the star of the team as a junior makes a jump of 5+ ppg in his senior season. My guess is that it doesn't happen very often.
Well, it should be noted that DJO didn't exactly lead the team by a landslide. Over 37 games, he scored 2 more points (584) than Jimmy Butler (582), an average of 0.054 points per game. Without JFB, the expectation will be on DJO to lead the team. Also, DJO had a craptacular start to the season. If you look at what he did from the start of the Big East season onward, he averaged 17.4 ppg, so I'm actually projecting closer to a (still sizable) 3.6 ppg jump in his scoring.
Based on reports from over the summer, and I know how people love to ignore those (often with good cause), DJO sounds like he's been playing like one of the best players in the country. If not for so many guys staying in school (Barnes, Sullinger, Jones) I would be touting DJO for first team All-American. Even still, my prediction is he makes second team All-American along with first team Big East and quite possibly BE POY.
I think our offense will be as better than it was last year. But JFB scored almost 16 ppg. That's a lot to make up. If DJO doesn't start in bad form (17.4 ppg), has a 2 ppg improvement based on his personal improvement, and can pick up 2 ppg in the "replace Jimmy" effort, I can easily see him scoring 21+.
EDIT: And if we're talking strictly about starting lineups, there's no way I see Gardner starting over Otule. Not because of CO's defense, not because of DG's offense, but simply because of the importance of winning the possession battle. Unless Jamil Wilson can consistently outjump Otule, Chris will be out there to win the tip. Even if DG becomes a 25 mpg guy and Otule is his 12 mpg backup, I still expect CO to start.
Quote from: brewcity77 on October 05, 2011, 08:55:52 PM
My first thought is that this year is the most cut-and-dried starting lineup since Buzz's first year. My second is that you're underestimating DJO's points. I think he's really going to light it up. I'd pencil him in for 21+ ppg this year.
There's only been 10 or so players in MU history to average more than 20 ppg. Probably 5 or so with 21+ ppg. That's restricted air you are predicting.
I don't think DJO does it for three reasons: 1. He is far too unselfish and sometimes seems self conscious if he takes too many shots. 2. This team has a lot of potential scorers, and he is one of many options. 3. This team has significant depth and I am not sure Buzz plays him the minutes he would need to put up those numbers.
I hope you are correct, but I think that is a tad high.
Quote from: AWegrzyn17 on October 05, 2011, 11:47:13 PM
You realize that adding "one" three pointer a game is a 4% increase in MU's overall scoring for the season? Not exactly a toss in?
That is not exactly true, because the shot he takes gets taken away from someone else. Last year I felt Butler should of shot more and DJO less. Now Butler is gone, presumably replaced by Wilson. I do not think Wilson will take more shots than Butler. I would think overall Cadougan would shoot less than Buycks. It is all about who is going to take the shots and DJO is simply the most aggressive player on the team in that area. Overall, I would expect MU's scoring average to increase rather than decrease, but we are probably talking by a point or two.
Ok I read the entire string and have to make a comment:
Maybe more of a plea!! Can all of you out there who keep wanting to throw DJO in there as a potential backup to Junior at the 1, for the love of God, please stop?!
DJO is a great guard and I really like the kid and love what he brings to MU. I am hoping he has an amazing season and enjoys tremendous personal and team success.
However, he is about the farthest thing from a PG as we have on the team. He has never in 2 years ran the point, despite people on message boards time and again saying he is an option. In fact, last year Butler brought the ball up on rare occasion as maybe a rare default PG. Never DJO.
Please please please stop offering that DJO might back up Cadougan.
Buzz Williams recruited Derrick Wilson and won a recruiting battle over Stanford, Georgia Tech, and Notre Dame. Anthony Solomon told me he really liked his game.
Derrick Wilson is our back up point guard. If something happens where neither Junior or Derrick can be in the game DJO will not be the PG!!!! Stop!!
P.S. It would not surprise me to see Vander Blue start at the 3 and move Jamil Wilson to the 4. The loss of Eric Wiliams leaves us very short at the 4-5 positions and Jae Crowder's penchant for picking up early fouls could create problems. Could see Vander play a few minutes or until the first TV t.o. where we then go back to 2 guards and bring Jae in at the 4, ala last year. Hopefully, a year in helps Jae become more discretionary with his fouls.
P.P.S. I think Juan Anderson has a world of talent and will in time become a really good player. However, I believe those expecting much out of him this year will be disappointed. While very skilled he is also very slight. He will go from being the biggest strongest player on the court in HS to being the skinniest weakest player on the court this year. However, a year of training table, glass after glass of Amplified Mass and hundreds of hours in the weight room and I beleive he will undergo the transformation necessary to let his skill shine thru.
Any word on Jamail Jones?
Quote from: flash on October 05, 2011, 04:34:27 PM
I know this thread has probably been posted a dozen times, but I thought i would start one up again
Here is my projected starting Line up with projected stats, thoughts?
1 Cadougan 6 ppg 4.5 apg
2 DJO 18ppg
3 Jamil Wilson 10ppg 5 rpg
4 Jae Crowder 14ppg 7 rpg
5 Chris Otule 8 ppg 6rpg
I am still hoping there is a chance Vander Blue cracks the line-up. I recognize that he really has to step up to do it, but the young man has talent and it would be good for our program for a Top 50 recruit to develop under Buzz's leadership.
Nonetheless, I agree with many posters that this is a dynamic line-up that looks great on paper.
Quote from: MUStudent on October 05, 2011, 07:52:14 PM
Conversely, I've actually heard Mayo hasn't looked so hot, even on the offensive end. It's still very early (we'll know a lot more once they start full-group practice), but I find it interesting Rothstein would tweet something like that given what I've heard about his performance.
I have heard that Mayo has had stretches. He's an inconsistent freshman. My guess is that we will go stretches where he amazes us, and stretches where we want to pull our hair out. Also, we have no idea what his defense is going to be like.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on October 06, 2011, 11:52:02 AM
I have heard that Mayo has had stretches. He's an inconsistent freshman. My guess is that we will go stretches where he amazes us, and stretches where we want to pull our hair out. Also, we have no idea what his defense is going to be like.
Yeah, that's what I'm expecting this season. I'm hoping for some consistency in his 3 point shooting. Just based on scouting reports, I think he leaves something to be desired defensively, but let's hope Buzz and the coaches can drill some defensive ability into him.
I've heard Jamail Jones probably figures in as the 2nd or 3rd guy off the bench. Probably 10-15 minutes per game. Again, this is still really early and a lot can change over the next month.
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on October 06, 2011, 10:18:39 AM
Ok I read the entire string and have to make a comment:
Maybe more of a plea!! Can all of you out there who keep wanting to throw DJO in there as a potential backup to Junior at the 1, for the love of God, please stop?!
DJO is a great guard and I really like the kid and love what he brings to MU. I am hoping he has an amazing season and enjoys tremendous personal and team success.
However, he is about the farthest thing from a PG as we have on the team. He has never in 2 years ran the point, despite people on message boards time and again saying he is an option. In fact, last year Butler brought the ball up on rare occasion as maybe a rare default PG. Never DJO.
Please please please stop offering that DJO might back up Cadougan.
Buzz Williams recruited Derrick Wilson and won a recruiting battle over Stanford, Georgia Tech, and Notre Dame. Anthony Solomon told me he really liked his game.
Derrick Wilson is our back up point guard. If something happens where neither Junior or Derrick can be in the game DJO will not be the PG!!!! Stop!!
P.S. It would not surprise me to see Vander Blue start at the 3 and move Jamil Wilson to the 4. The loss of Eric Wiliams leaves us very short at the 4-5 positions and Jae Crowder's penchant for picking up early fouls could create problems. Could see Vander play a few minutes or until the first TV t.o. where we then go back to 2 guards and bring Jae in at the 4, ala last year. Hopefully, a year in helps Jae become more discretionary with his fouls.
P.P.S. I think Juan Anderson has a world of talent and will in time become a really good player. However, I believe those expecting much out of him this year will be disappointed. While very skilled he is also very slight. He will go from being the biggest strongest player on the court in HS to being the skinniest weakest player on the court this year. However, a year of training table, glass after glass of Amplified Mass and hundreds of hours in the weight room and I beleive he will undergo the transformation necessary to let his skill shine thru.
I think the idea that he will play back up point guard comes from the fact he attended a guards camp in early summer where he was reported to have been working on point guard skills. Also, if he can demonstrate that he can play point his draft status will increase. Given that, it is possible Buzz will play him there to increase his chances.
I hope Buzz doesn't play DJO at point to increase his draft chances. He should play him there because he is the best available option.
Quote from: bilsu on October 06, 2011, 01:03:50 PM
I think the idea that he will play back up point guard comes from the fact he attended a guards camp in early summer where he was reported to have been working on point guard skills. Also, if he can demonstrate that he can play point his draft status will increase. Given that, it is possible Buzz will play him there to increase his chances.
If DJO honed his PG skills in order to help his draft stock, then Buzz will play him at PG only if his PG skills have been honed enough that Buzz has confidence in him playing that position over anyone else. Buzz isn't going to play him at PG simply to help his draft stock if there's a better option available.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on October 06, 2011, 01:33:54 PM
If DJO honed his PG skills in order to help his draft stock, then Buzz will play him at PG only if his PG skills have been honed enough that Buzz has confidence in him playing that position over anyone else. Buzz isn't going to play him at PG simply to help his draft stock if there's a better option available.
Obviously, if DJO is not a good option at point, playing him there would not improve his draft chances. I actually think Blue will be the back up point, but I could see DJO getting spot time there.