http://www.nj.com/rutgersfootball/index.ssf/2011/10/big_east_targets_smu_and_centr.html
Along with previous schools mentioned Temple and Navy.
Basketball is clearly not the priority. (Not that I blame them....but it makes you think of the options as a basketball school.)
Right now it's all about survival. Though I'd rather see Temple as a full member. They'd make both football and basketball better. Don't really like the idea of adding Villanova football, though. Just coming from FCS, they likely won't be very competitive. Much rather see that go to Navy or Army.
Glad to hear some progress. With how fast things have been going, 2 days of silence since Sunday seemed like an eternity.
i do not understand why Temple would not be invited for basketball.. they have a long rich history and have really been on the upswing recently and as recently as 20 years agao were one of the top teams in the nation for a few years under chaney.
If the answer is Nova...well that is BS
Again, if they add SMU and Central Florida for all sports, but do not add Temple's basketball program, I think it is time for the bball schools to look at other alternatives. The BE as we know it is dead. Imagine SMU playing Central Florida on the MSG floor instead of Syracuse playing Pitt. The brand is sullied.
I would much rather be with Georgetown, Nova, St. Johns, Xavier and Dayton in a conference of basketball-first schools who are *just like us.* Not a conference that views basketball as a diversion between football seasons.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on October 05, 2011, 09:08:14 AM
Again, if they add SMU and Central Florida for all sports, but do not add Temple's basketball program, I think it is time for the bball schools to look at other alternatives. The BE as we know it is dead. Imagine SMU playing Central Florida on the MSG floor instead of Syracuse playing Pitt. The brand is sullied.
I would much rather be with Georgetown, Nova, St. Johns, Xavier and Dayton in a conference of basketball-first schools who are *just like us.* Not a conference that views basketball as a diversion between football seasons.
You will get your wish sooner or later. Let us hope it is later.
Why do we want to "hope it is later?" I see no advantage whatsoever in remaining in a newer version of CUSA.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on October 05, 2011, 09:27:05 AM
Why do we want to "hope it is later?" I see no advantage whatsoever in remaining in a newer version of CUSA.
I would also prefer to see it come sooner, because I'm convinced that it's going to happen eventually. I think that one of the worst things that can happen for Marquette is for the Big East to bring in other football schools. In my opinion, it would be far better for Marquette if the Big East implodes in the near future with the remaining football schools leaving, than to have new football schools join the conference and create football stability. This is based upon my opinion that the hybrid conference will never be stable and eventually the basketball only schools will have to make their own way. My preference is that they make their own way under the name "Big East" because the football schools leave, rather than as "Generic Basketball Conference" because the football schools don't value the basketball schools.
I'm one who believes that the Big East brand has quite a lot of value as a basketball conference, even if the football schools leave. I know that Sultan disagrees with me about how much value, but that's an honest difference of opinion.
The only advantage of sticking around is maintaining games with Louisville, Cincy, UConn and WVU. We just may have to put up with the UCF, TCU and SMU games as a trade-off.
Also, we need to wait for the football schools to leave, if we leave on our own we lose the Big East name and MSG rights. I think that's important.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on October 05, 2011, 09:08:14 AM
Again, if they add SMU and Central Florida for all sports, but do not add Temple's basketball program, I think it is time for the bball schools to look at other alternatives. The BE as we know it is dead. Imagine SMU playing Central Florida on the MSG floor instead of Syracuse playing Pitt. The brand is sullied.
I would much rather be with Georgetown, Nova, St. Johns, Xavier and Dayton in a conference of basketball-first schools who are *just like us.* Not a conference that views basketball as a diversion between football seasons.
Agree 100%.
Seriously SMU? I don't care how dirty Memphis is or what there academic situation is. This is an athletic conference. Add Memphis.
It's not so much that I don't think it doesn't have any value, I just don't think we should be tied to the brand at all costs. I mean, a basketball only conference that is called the Big East and plays its tournament at MSG does have value over a conference called Conference East and plays its tournament in Philadelphia. The question is by what margin is it more valuable?
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on October 05, 2011, 09:08:14 AM
Again, if they add SMU and Central Florida for all sports, but do not add Temple's basketball program, I think it is time for the bball schools to look at other alternatives. The BE as we know it is dead. Imagine SMU playing Central Florida on the MSG floor instead of Syracuse playing Pitt. The brand is sullied.
I would much rather be with Georgetown, Nova, St. Johns, Xavier and Dayton in a conference of basketball-first schools who are *just like us.* Not a conference that views basketball as a diversion between football seasons.
Agree. And if the football schools actually don't want Temple basketball I'd take them in this conference without hesitation even if they're not exactly like the rest. The product is much better by going this route instead of replacing Pitt and Syracuse's basketball programs with TCU, SMU and UCF. When we're looking to add a "travel partner" to meet TCU's demands I think we're past the tipping point.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on October 05, 2011, 09:08:14 AM
Again, if they add SMU and Central Florida for all sports, but do not add Temple's basketball program, I think it is time for the bball schools to look at other alternatives. The BE as we know it is dead. Imagine SMU playing Central Florida on the MSG floor instead of Syracuse playing Pitt. The brand is sullied.
I would much rather be with Georgetown, Nova, St. Johns, Xavier and Dayton in a conference of basketball-first schools who are *just like us.* Not a conference that views basketball as a diversion between football seasons.
Agree completely. The brand is clearly diluted with Cuse and Pitt gone. The hybrid conference is not going to work longer term. Need to get the best 10-12 hoops only schools and move on.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on October 05, 2011, 10:08:30 AM
Seriously SMU? I don't care how dirty Memphis is or what there academic situation is. This is an athletic conference. Add Memphis.
TOTALLY agree! How are they any dirtier than UConn? And they'd add a new state to the mix. And their basketball team is, you know, good.
I would stick with the 6 Football schools. Losing Uconn, Ville, Cincy, WV, could not be replaced by Xavier and Dayton ST louis and butler. Also you might lose Notre Dame as well.
You fight to survive becuase you never know what is going to happen down the Road. If MU keeps getting better they will have more options. Does it make it 5 years? Does it make it 20 years? You never know. You can always goto the BBALL conf, once you go BBALL you can never go back to a football Conf.
Also if you add a school for just football, you really need to add 2.
I think that for the Big East to get stable you need to get to 12 Football schools. I would do Temple, CF, SMU, for all sports and Navy and AFA for football. This would give you 12 and 18.
I think that would be good enough to keep their BCS tie in, which is the end game to stay alive.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on October 05, 2011, 10:22:02 AM
It's not so much that I don't think it doesn't have any value, I just don't think we should be tied to the brand at all costs. I mean, a basketball only conference that is called the Big East and plays its tournament at MSG does have value over a conference called Conference East and plays its tournament in Philadelphia. The question is by what margin is it more valuable?
I agree. My point wasn't to suggest that you didn't think it had value, but rather to simply acknowledge that we have differing opinions on the value. No problemo.
The next question would be: How is this new bball-only conference formed?
1) Do MU, Georgetown, St. John's and Nova bolt the BE to join the newly named and much improved Atlantic 14? Do Seton Hall, DePaul and Providence get included? The A-17? (I'd assume ND would deem themselves to be above joining what was a mid-major conference)
2) Do the bball-only schools bolt the BE and try to get schools like Xavier, Dayton, Butler (i.e. the strongest of the mid-majors) to bolt their conferences and join them in a new conference?
3) Do they vote in opposition of adding new members and try to drive the football schools out so they keep the BE name and invite other schools to join? (not sure if this is even a feasible option)
Just curious as to how people see it coming to life.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on October 05, 2011, 11:10:41 AM
The next question would be: How is this new bball-only conference formed?
1) Do MU, Georgetown, St. John's and Nova bolt the BE to join the newly named and much improved Atlantic 14? Do Seton Hall, DePaul and Providence get included? The A-17? (I'd assume ND would deem themselves to be above joining what was a mid-major conference)
2) Do the bball-only schools bolt the BE and try to get schools like Xavier, Dayton, Butler (i.e. the strongest of the mid-majors) to bolt their conferences and join them in a new conference?
3) Do they vote in opposition of adding new members and try to drive the football schools out so they keep the BE name and invite other schools to join? (not sure if this is even a feasible option)
Just curious as to how people see it coming to life.
4) None of the above. Louisville, Cincinnati, West Virginia all bolt the Big 12. Big East loses automatic AQ, football schools either go somewhere else or stick around and put their football in another league (like Temple, UMass in A-10).
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on October 05, 2011, 11:10:41 AM
The next question would be: How is this new bball-only conference formed?
1) Do MU, Georgetown, St. John's and Nova bolt the BE to join the newly named and much improved Atlantic 14? Do Seton Hall, DePaul and Providence get included? The A-17? (I'd assume ND would deem themselves to be above joining what was a mid-major conference)
2) Do the bball-only schools bolt the BE and try to get schools like Xavier, Dayton, Butler (i.e. the strongest of the mid-majors) to bolt their conferences and join them in a new conference?
3) Do they vote in opposition of adding new members and try to drive the football schools out so they keep the BE name and invite other schools to join? (not sure if this is even a feasible option)
Just curious as to how people see it coming to life.
The big if at this point is if Mizzou goes to SEC. That happens, and there is NO doubt Lville gets a Big 12 invite, with Cincy and WVU good possibilities too.
If I'm an MU administrator involved in this process - I try to delay/stall the addition of UCF, SMU, etc...and other football schools to the Big East - who would devalue the basketball brand of the Big East's current non-football playing schools...and reduce the voting power of the basketball only schools.
As for UCONN and Rutgers - tough luck to them - they have been trying to get out of the Big East for awhile, and if it goes down like above - they'll have to figure out what they are going to do..
I would like the Big East to survive with football. Although, I am not a big college football fan, I do believe football raises the stature of the conference. I may be wrong, but I took the reason for adding SMU was a way to keep TCU in the mix. I really hope we add Temple for all sports. According to what I read on the basketball boards Central Florida is the fastest growing University in the US. They may not be good in basketball now, but I would think they would have the potential to become very good. I would also take Memphis, but I think the biggest probelm with that is Louisville and Cincy do not want them and therefore they are not on the radar and I do not expect them to be. No one knows the future, but replacing Syrarcuse and Pitt with Temple and C. Florida in the long run might not be that bad. Temple I believe based on wins is in the top ten all-time in basketball. Although, I believe Syracuse will still be good after Bohiem(sp), usually the program takes a hit when a coaching legend leaves the program. I believe the move to the Big East will have a more positive effect on Central Florida's basketball program than Pitt will have moving to the ACC. I actually believe Pitt will see a decline, but maybe that is only wishfull thinking. As far as future stability, the instability ends when the four super conferences get to their desired team level. Hopefully, they decide that is 14 teams vs 16 teams.
Quote from: Ners on October 05, 2011, 11:24:09 AM
The big if at this point is if Mizzou goes to SEC. That happens, and there is NO doubt Lville gets a Big 12 invite, with Cincy and WVU good possibilities too.
If I'm an MU administrator involved in this process - I try to delay/stall the addition of UCF, SMU, etc...and other football schools to the Big East - who would devalue the basketball brand of the Big East's current non-football playing schools...and reduce the voting power of the basketball only schools.
As for UCONN and Rutgers - tough luck to them - they have been trying to get out of the Big East for awhile, and if it goes down like above - they'll have to figure out what they are going to do..
I think Louisville and Cincy will get an invite, but I am not sure they will accept it. They are basketball schools first and I think they prefer to remain in Big East, if it can survive with football. The teams that want to leave are Uconn, who nobody really wants, and West Virginia. I think we lose West Virginia if Misouri turns down SEC. Missouri goes to SEC and West Virginia does whatever Louisville and Cincy do and they could very easily decide to stay in Big East. The best thing in my opinion would be for Missouri to jump to SEC, which might cause other Big 12 teams to again try to leave. Missouri stays and the Big 12 survives for sure and West Virginia goes to SEC and that is when Big East implodes.
Louisville and Cincinnati would be crazy to turn down the B12. More money and who would you rather have come into your home stadium? Texas and Oklahoma? Or Central Florida and SMU? Nothing says "small potatos" more than what BE football is morphing into.
Not to mention that the B12 basketball conference really isn't *that* bad. Add Louisville and Cincy to a mix of Kansas, KSU and Texas? Not shabby.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on October 05, 2011, 11:36:48 AM
Louisville and Cincinnati would be crazy to turn down the B12. More money and who would you rather have come into your home stadium? Texas and Oklahoma? Or Central Florida and SMU? Nothing says "small potatos" more than what BE football is morphing into.
Not to mention that the B12 basketball conference really isn't *that* bad. Add Louisville and Cincy to a mix of Kansas, KSU and Texas? Not shabby.
Reality is often crazy.
Without a big buy out in place, this is all meaningless bs. Is ESPN involved in this process? I hope so. espn was involved in PItt and SU to the ACC!
Need a big buy out now and Tv deal to add teams. anything less should be a no vote on expansion by the B-ball schools. also a provision that the bsketball schools cannot be voted out and have a right to disband the conference at a point in time and keep the BE name. Else we should not approve adding the SMU's, etc.
Quote from: bilsu on October 05, 2011, 11:29:10 AM
I think Louisville and Cincy will get an invite, but I am not sure they will accept it.
I agree that we should not act purely on an assumption that Lville and Cincy are gone. The B12 looked dead a few weeks ago, then they came back to life with the Pac12 staying pat everyone giving up their TV rights, then they looked shaken again when Mizzou held the press conference saying they hadn't given up their rights and now all but broadcasting a move to the SEC. Is Texas really "all in" now despite all the talk of independence or going to the ACC for all but football? I don't believe the B12 is a cozy landing place right now, and don't think we should be asking why TCU decided to stay, or why Lville and Cincy would.
Sultan and others make good arguments for basketball-only, but I am still on the side of you don't walk away from a BCS-affiliation. It obviously may happen, but you don't give it up without a fight. To that end:
1. I like any of the service academies,
2. You hold Syracuse and Pitt to 2 more years,
3. Temple seems like a no-brainer,
4. I like the logistics of being able to do a UCF-USF trip and a SMU-TCU trip, just like when teams come up and hit DePaul and Marquette without going home in between. Letting kids in all sports (and Buzz) make a Texas and a Florida trip and getting just a slice of those two markets is worth extending for in my mind. Shoot, the SEC really was set at 12 teams but just couldn't turn down a chance at Texas, and the same should be true of the Big East at a smaller scale.
However, there is a very good point that the basketball-only schools need some kind of protection if the ratio goes to 2-to-1 football, and admittedly I don't know how you do that.
SMU, UCF and Navy will be selling alot of tickets at the Bradley Center. :-\
Quote from: bamamarquettefan on October 05, 2011, 01:01:21 PM
1. I like any of the service academies,
2. You hold Syracuse and Pitt to 2 more years,
3. Temple seems like a no-brainer,
4. I like the logistics of being able to do a UCF-USF trip and a SMU-TCU trip, just like when teams come up and hit DePaul and Marquette without going home in between. Letting kids in all sports (and Buzz) make a Texas and a Florida trip and getting just a slice of those two markets is worth extending for in my mind. Shoot, the SEC really was set at 12 teams but just couldn't turn down a chance at Texas, and the same should be true of the Big East at a smaller scale.
However, there is a very good point that the basketball-only schools need some kind of protection if the ratio goes to 2-to-1 football, and admittedly I don't know how you do that.
Why does everyone somehow like the service acadamesi but programs such as Memphis, SMU, Houston (who have had alot more relevance) are looked down upon? I don't get it.
I am mainly scared of allowing too many football-schools in and not being able to keep the Big East name when (not if) it finally collapses. We need to keep our voting majority as we are now the heart of the conference.
Quote from: bilsu on October 05, 2011, 11:43:19 AM
Reality is often crazy.
I get your point, but in all seriousness Cincinnati and Louisville are NOT turning the Big XII down. Not even a chance.
Quote from: Aughnanure on October 05, 2011, 11:21:42 AM
4) None of the above. Louisville, Cincinnati, West Virginia all bolt the Big 12. Big East loses automatic AQ, football schools either go somewhere else or stick around and put their football in another league (like Temple, UMass in A-10).
I guess I should have stated specifically that this was under the assumption that the BE is dead-set on expanding to include more decent football/bad basketball schools.
Quote from: Aughnanure on October 05, 2011, 01:39:10 PM
I get your point, but in all seriousness Cincinnati and Louisville are NOT turning the Big XII down. Not even a chance.
LOL, that's precious, coming from the guy who has continuously flown off the handle about this conference stuff. Take the following nugget as an example...
Quote from: Aughnanure on September 07, 2011, 03:48:48 PM
Being from Big 12 country, I am a bit closer to this than others and I cannot see a way the Big 12 survives. No one trusts each other and no "pledge" of undying loyalty is going to make the schools suddenly trust one another.
All it would take is one Big Ten offer to Missouri and they are gone, and do the Kansas schools really feel safe enough not to take a Big East offer if it means being in a more stable conference? The fear of having nowhere to land softly is terrifying. The only way this survives is if Texas gives up the Bevo network and agrees to more equal pay, but that isnt happening.
New rumor has Texas going Indy in football and placing all its other sports in Big East or ACC - that would help secure the importance of the Bball only schools
Quote from: rocky_warrior on October 05, 2011, 04:05:14 PM
LOL, that's precious, coming from the guy who has continuously flown off the handle about this conference stuff. Take the following nugget as an example...
Cute, bringing up a post from almost a month ago to prove...what? Funny that I was basically right that Texas had to give in on equal pay and Mizzou would be gone if offered (the SEC instead, but still offered)...wrong on UT giving up their network completely though, but they still make concessions.
Was there a point to you response? Yes, stuff changes in a month? I Hope you did laugh out loud.
Quote from: Aughnanure on October 05, 2011, 04:24:53 PM
Cute, bringing up a post from almost a month ago to prove...what? Funny that I was basically right that Texas had to give in on equal pay and Mizzou would be gone if offered (the SEC instead, but still offered)...wrong on UT giving up their network completely though, but they still make concessions.
Was there a point to you response? Yes, stuff changes in a month? I Hope you did laugh out loud.
My point - you focus on the day to day of this stuff too much.
A month ago you "cannot see a way the Big 12 survives". Today "Cincinnati and Louisville are NOT turning the Big XII down".
Perhaps, there's the possibility that they see the Big 12 as unstable as you did a month ago, so would turn it down.
"cannot see how the Big 12 survives" was a pretty absolute statement, so to come back with "stuff changes in a month" just makes Rocky's point that everything could change in the next month and the BEAST could look much better again.
Come on, just admit Rocky has you nailed on that one. I say plenty of things that turn out to be wrong - but when it happens I try to admit it and laugh at myself and move on.
The point is a serious one though - the BEAST fate does not look good at the moment, but who knows what happens next. Networks are throwing around billions of dollars in commitments for the next decade, and one of them may decide they really want the BEAST to stay together and make it worth it to stay/join.
Duly noted, because I am very into this subject and am worried for multiple reasons. I guess the difference in this situation now is that the Big 12 has a team like Texas, and the money going into the Big 12 dwarfs the Big East into embarrassment, so a decision based on guessing that Big East will be around still vs at getting a much larger paycheck, though it may only be temporary, would be a terrible decision to make for shaky schools such as Louisville and Cincy.
But yes, you both are right. I just find the speculation surrounding this whole thing amazing, and fun to follow, so I do get too caught up with the day to day. I just took offense with "flying off the handle" as though I have said absolutely outrageous things about all this.
MU needs to stay close to Georgetown. Their alums are all over DC in both parties. If a scenario plays out where GT is going to get screwed, watch how fast talk of the Feds intervening somehow starts up. And it will be a bipartisan effort! lol
Floating around twitter that TCU, WVU, Louisville, and BYU will get big 12 invites in 7-10 days
Quote from: Aughnanure on October 05, 2011, 08:41:45 PM
I just took offense with "flying off the handle" as though I have said absolutely outrageous things about all this.
Ah, if you've followed MUScoop as long as you've been a member, you should know it's common for all of us to "fly off the handle" - no offense intended.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on October 06, 2011, 01:39:38 AM
Ah, if you've followed MUScoop as long as you've been a member, you should know it's common for all of us to "fly off the handle" - no offense intended.
This is true.
Tulane to Big 12 now? If academics matter I guess that makes sense. One advantage is the $1 billion endowment since they can legitimately commit to improving their facilities, financial commitment to sports. Rice would be the same, but they're in Texas.
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7063633/missouri-tigers-hope-join-sec-had-wanted-big-ten-invite-most
As a Big XII fan, I'd rather just have Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis and BYU if Mizzou leaves.
Quote from: Aughnanure on October 06, 2011, 09:13:06 AM
Tulane to Big 12 now? If academics matter I guess that makes sense. One advantage is the $1 billion endowment since they can legitimately commit to improving their facilities, financial commitment to sports. Rice would be the same, but they're in Texas.
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7063633/missouri-tigers-hope-join-sec-had-wanted-big-ten-invite-most
As a Big XII fan, I'd rather just have Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis and BYU if Mizzou leaves.
It also said Tulane made overtures to Big East, so they could end up there.
Quote from: bilsu on October 06, 2011, 10:25:43 AM
It also said Tulane made overtures to Big East, so they could end up there.
Tulane, TCU, ECU...Sounds like ConfUSA is gettin' the band back together and calling it the Big East!
Sewanee too? They had that one great year...