Whats your vote? I know this has been discussed every so often, but my opinion has recently changed.
1 - Junior
2 - DJO
3 - Jamil Wilson
4 - EWill
5 - Gardner
Crowder gets significant time along with Vander. Jae does not seem to mind coming off the bench. Chris loses starting job to Davante over summer.
The only way EWill starts over Crowder is if its a similar situation to this year...that is...playing until the first media timeout so Jae avoids an early nickeldimer.
Buzz seems to emphasize who finishes more than who starts. EWill may be the "starter" but Crowder will be seeing the big time minutes.
I have no qualms with the other 4 guys you listed. I think Otule might get the starts over Gardner. That really is a toss up. I still think Chris is the better overall player (especially on the defensive side), but Gardner has more upside. Offseason development will determine who gets the spot and more minutes, although I think they'll both see plenty of time on the court. Its been said before, but Gardner has to get in shape, work on defensive movement a TON if he wants to start and play 25+ minutes in the Big East. He's not there yet. His weaknesses are much greater liabilities than Otule's.
I just got excited thinking about 2 years from now when Otule is a senior and Gardner is a junior.
Assuming even just modest improvement from now until then, we are gonna have some really, really good big men. Its been a while since Marquette has had this kind of size down low.
I think Gardner will take a little longer to step in as the starter. Perhaps at the start of the conference schedule. But he still has a lot of conditioning to do.
I think we'll see a bunch of different starting lineups like we did this year.
Small
1 - Junior
2 - DJO
3 - Blue
4 - J Wilson
5 - E-Will
The Twin Towers
1 - Junior
2 - DJO
3 - J Wilson
4 - Gardner
5 - Otule
The Jumbo Package
1 - Junior
2 - Crowder
3 - E-Will
4 - Gardner
5 - Otule
Going into next season it's awesome that we have more talent than ever and have a lot of different players that can start.
Otule will start because he plays his best at the opening of the game and the opening of a half.
I do foresee another 10-man rotation like we had at the end of this year. I like that because it's easier to find a hot hand in 10 than it is for 6 or 7.
Unless something changes, let Otule continue to start. Let Gardner beat up on the back-ups. Split the minutes at the 5 fairly equally.
By the start of BE season...
Point: Junior
Post: Otule
Jamil, Crowder, DJO
After that, there are so many questions that need to be answered? Who is the back-up at point? Who get's DB's minutes? Where do the newcomers (Mayo, Anderson) fit vis-a-vis the returners (Jamail, EWill)? What role does Vander play next year?
We have six months to sort this stuff out.
I can't wait for the start of next season. I think EWill and JJ are both going to be solid contributors. It will be a challenge for Buzz to get the talent into the game.
But T-Bone, I don't think your jumbo package will see 1 minute next year (Although VCU has convinced me, sometimes I don't know diddly)
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 28, 2011, 12:04:57 PM
By the start of BE season...
Point: Junior
Post: Otule
Jamil, Crowder, DJO
After that, there are so many questions that need to be answered? Who is the back-up at point? Who get's DB's minutes? Where do the newcomers (Mayo, Anderson) fit vis-a-vis the returners (Jamail, EWill)? What role does Vander play next year?
We have six months to sort this stuff out.
I think this is the lineup I agree with the most.
What's great though is that we have so much talent coming in/returning that there's no telling who will be starting in January. Who knows, maybe Blue, Gardner, and Williams give these 5 a run for their money and end up stealing one or two of these spots.
I'm not sure how to properly phrase this, but doesn't Vander almost "have to" start next year?
Maybe I say/think this more from a perception stand point. Clearly results on the court will bear out whether he starts or not, but being a prized recruit like he was and not starting his sophomore year would seem more an indictment on Vander and the coaching staff for not being further along. College players progress most between their frosh and soph years. Hope to see Vander put himself in a position to start next year.
I might be alone in this, but I really hope Jones develops into a decent bench option over the summer. I still think there is potential for him to be a quality player.
MUDish, when thinking about this, I thought the same. Vander at least has to be the first guard off the bench right? And Jones has to play some sort of 15-18 mpg role too. If neither of them improve minute wise from last year, and lose time to incoming freshmen, they may never really make much of an impact here.
EWill I think at least will play a larger role. I see him being the first forward off the bench, and I think will actually get his chance to play in front of Jamil at the very beginning of the season. Unless Buzz goes small, the only real competition he has for the forward type spot is Juan Anderson. (Pending what the last scholie brings of course.)
I'd be with you on that Sultan, if Vander was first off the bench (which my assumption would be) and with his energy level and defensive ability, he'd be (ideally) a great super sub. I'd have no problem there. Issue would just be the "buzz" (pardon the pun) around Vander before coming to MU, and by his sophomore year he can't crack the starting five, maybe it's just me buying into the hype, but I suppose I'd be a little disappointed.
Quote from: MUDish on March 28, 2011, 12:37:05 PM
I'm not sure how to properly phrase this, but doesn't Vander almost "have to" start next year?
Maybe I say/think this more from a perception stand point. Clearly results on the court will bear out whether he starts or not, but being a prized recruit like he was and not starting his sophomore year would seem more an indictment on Vander and the coaching staff for not being further along. College players progress most between their frosh and soph years. Hope to see Vander put himself in a position to start next year.
I might be alone in this, but I really hope Jones develops into a decent bench option over the summer. I still think there is potential for him to be a quality player.
First off, I really like the energy the JJ brings. When he got the minutes in the BET he was giving it his all on the floor, even though the stats may say different. As far as Vander starting, obvoiusly Buzz will say the five toughest guys will play but Van needs to become a smarter player just as much as he needs to become better. He'll be putting up hundreds of shots over the summer and getting stronger. I really don't want to hear Vander saying that he needs to work more on his defense to establish himself because he knows that everyone can score,his shot is in a need of help. I have fith in him, he is Buzz' first freshmen to do what he has done and it looks to be a bright future. Look at JFB his Sophmore year averaging about 6ppg (with 3 amigos) coming off the bench, shortly later he became something really special.
2011-12
1. Junior
2. DJO
3. E-Will
4. Crowder
5. Otule
Its all about experience.
I'm going to guess something like Junior 30m/g, DJO 30, j. wilson 30, ewill 10, otule 20, blue 20, jones 10, crowder 30, gardner 20. I hope that when Junior is out, DJO/Blue/Wilson are able to bring the ball up. To me, it looks like there's a lot more talent, than minutes to go around. Buzz is going to have to do an amazing job of being able to spread minutes around while also keeping people happy and keeping on developing everyone. I really hope one or two players redshirt next year unless an injury happens.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 28, 2011, 12:53:59 PM
If neither of them improve minute wise from last year, and lose time to incoming freshmen, they may never really make much of an impact here.
the only real competition he has for the forward type spot is Juan Anderson. (Pending what the last scholie brings of course.)
Honest question. Do you really see Buzz playing his freshmen next year, significantly? What makes you believe this is any different from the past three seasons?
Ox has played LIMITED amount of game over 10mpg.
Van has played many more but wasn't productive after DePaul game (defensivly, sure).
Also, what does J. Wilson bring to the table? What did he do at Oregon? I've been hearing good (optimistic) things but have never seen him play.
Vander will be fine. This summer he will be in Milwaukee and not part of the National Team. Being part of that team was indeed a great thing, but it's more important for him right now is to be in the AL everyday and start the process of becoming a leader on the team.
Vander should get Rob Frozena minutes. That is all he deserves.
Quote from: bilsu on March 28, 2011, 01:34:49 PM
Vander should get Rob Frozena minutes. That is all he deserves.
Completely disagree. He's shown flashes of greatness throughout the season, especially on defense. He needs to work on knowing when to drive to the rack and when to pass it back to the perimeter. He got burned quite a few times this season when he drove into traffic because it almost always ended in a turnover.
I would imagine that Junior, DJO and Otule will be in the starting line-up for most of the season and that Junior, DJO and Crowder will be in the "finishing" line-up for most of the season. The other 2 spots on the floor will depend on match-ups and who's playing well in each game and who has been practicing well. Honestly, I don't think the actual starting line-up matters all that much. Besides the guys mentioned above, Blue, Jamil, EWill, Jones and Gardner are all going to get minutes, but they might not consistently get the same number of minutes each night (i.e. 25 minutes one game and 8 minutes the next). Anderson could see some spot minutes from time to time but I can't imagine Derrick and Mayo will get off the bench all that often.
As for Blue, I could see him starting/playing alongside Junior and DJO in a 3-guard set along with Crowder/Jamil/EWill and Otule/Gardner. He could also see some minutes at 2-guard with DJO at the point. Most intelligent fans would understand if Blue comes off the bench considering he plays the same position as a guy with NBA-ready skills.
I dsagree with Bilsu as well, even when he did very little on the OFF end, he was defending, getting deflections, grabbing rebounds and multiple times was just out hustling people. The Biggest thing that happened to him is his Confidence on OFF got shot last year. When he gets that back he will be much better. Did JR become a much better OFF player from JAN to MARCH (no) he was the same player just playing with more confidence.
Crowder will start, book it.
Cadougan
DJO
Wilson/Blue
Crowder
Otule
big min. off bench:
Wilson/Blue
Gardner
EWill
Jamail Jones
D. Wilson
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 28, 2011, 01:50:50 PM
As for Blue, I could see him starting/playing alongside Junior and DJO in a 3-guard set along with Crowder/Jamil/EWill and Otule/Gardner. He could also see some minutes at 2-guard with DJO at the point. Most intelligent fans would understand if Blue comes off the bench considering he plays the same position as a guy with NBA-ready skills.
I don't see DJO playing at the point anytime soon.
Quote from: Stuckin1977 on March 28, 2011, 02:02:44 PM
I don't see DJO playing at the point anytime soon.
Why not? He played it at times this past season. I don't know why he wouldn't occasionally do it next season as well.
Maybe its just me but I don't see D. Wilson getting much time off the bench. He and Todd Mayo will be pulling JJ and EWill duties from this year's team
Quote from: Badgerhater on March 28, 2011, 01:26:08 PM
Vander will be fine. This summer he will be in Milwaukee and not part of the National Team. Being part of that team was indeed a great thing, but it's more important for him right now is to be in the AL everyday and start the process of becoming a leader on the team.
You mention something that get's overlooked here when talking about Vander. The national team. He played on the team all summer and then the season started. Not much time to acclimate and develop. A high school season is from late Nov. to early March. That may, in part, explain the wall he hit late in the season.
I agree that the offseason in Milwaukee will be a big help to Vander.
Looking forward to his proving some of you, who have given up on him, wrong.
Quote from: MUMac on March 28, 2011, 03:02:13 PM
You mention something that get's overlooked here when talking about Vander. The national team. He played on the team all summer and then the season started. Not much time to acclimate and develop. A high school season is from late Nov. to early March. That may, in part, explain the wall he hit late in the season.
I agree that the offseason in Milwaukee will be a big help to Vander.
Looking forward to his proving some of you, who have given up on him, wrong.
See, this is what I disagree with, I think playing on the national team should have helped his progress as a player. The summer is when guys develop their individual games, and practicing against guys the caliber of Kyrie Irving and the international competition should have helped his game moreso. Time like that should be invaluable in his development, both physically and mentally.
Quote from: MUDish on March 28, 2011, 03:11:11 PM
See, this is what I disagree with, I think playing on the national team should have helped his progress as a player. The summer is when guys develop their individual games, and practicing against guys the caliber of Kyrie Irving and the international competition should have helped his game moreso. Time like that should be invaluable in his development, both physically and mentally.
First, one of the concerns of JUCO's is that they are not on campus soon enough to acclimate and develop. Same with HS seniors who are late getting through the Clearing House. Blue's experience, from a time line, would be similar to those concerns. Secondly, Freshman always hit a wall during the season due to the rigors of the season versus what they had been accustomed to. Add to that, that Blue played on an ultra competitive stage during the summer, and yes, I can see it taking a toll as the season wears down.
Don't know that I agree that he was developing his individual skills as much during the practices and games. More likely developing the team skills for the competition. I doubt he was out shooting x number of 3 point shots, free throws and the like.
Playing against the competition was good for him, I do not disagree. It does, however, have some drawbacks and with Vander, we may have witnessed those.
Quote from: MUDish on March 28, 2011, 03:11:11 PM
See, this is what I disagree with, I think playing on the national team should have helped his progress as a player. The summer is when guys develop their individual games, and practicing against guys the caliber of Kyrie Irving and the international competition should have helped his game moreso. Time like that should be invaluable in his development, both physically and mentally.
Vander's role on that team was as a defensive specialist. He deferred to guys like Irving, Rivers, etc on the offensive end which could be why his offensive game wasn't as developed as many believed it would be.
Also, the offseason is when guys hit the weights and work on fundamentals. VB likely didn't get as much time doing these types of individual workouts due to his practice committments.
Actually, if you look at the players from that roster who just finished their freshman seasons, none of them put up overly impressive numbers (aside from Irving who played just 11 games).
Interesting note: Team USA was led by Jeff Capel with assistant coach Paul Hewitt both of whom are currently looking for jobs.
1 - Junior Cadougan: Clearly the man at the point, his development makes him a no-brainer
2 - DJO: Senior and will be expected to shoulder the scoring load, another no-brainer
3 - Jamil Wilson: Toss-up position, will start because of his length provide his talent matches reports
4 - Jae Crowder: Emotional leader should be wise enough to take back the starting job from E-will as a senior
5 - Chris Otule: Even if Gardner gets more minutes, Otule starts for the tip if nothing else
Off the bench, I think Blue will be the first name. He would start if not for DJO but will get 22-25 mpg at the 1, 2, and in 3-guard sets. I think Gardner, Williams, and Jones all get 10+ mpg as well.
Quote from: MUMac on March 28, 2011, 03:21:45 PM
First, one of the concerns of JUCO's is that they are not on campus soon enough to acclimate and develop. Same with HS seniors who are late getting through the Clearing House. Blue's experience, from a time line, would be similar to those concerns. Secondly, Freshman always hit a wall during the season due to the rigors of the season versus what they had been accustomed to. Add to that, that Blue played on an ultra competitive stage during the summer, and yes, I can see it taking a toll as the season wears down.
Don't know that I agree that he was developing his individual skills as much during the practices and games. More likely developing the team skills for the competition. I doubt he was out shooting x number of 3 point shots, free throws and the like.
Playing against the competition was good for him, I do not disagree. It does, however, have some drawbacks and with Vander, we may have witnessed those.
I agree to an extent on your points and know what you're trying to say. To my point, with the level of competition he was exposed to, would ideally have helped him figure out what parts of his game needed development against a higher level of competition than what he would have gotten on campus. I recall reading Luke Winn's assessment of Vander on the national team, and Winn was pretty impressed and considered him a top 3 player on that team IIRC.
Vander showed he could get to the basket all year against all levels of competition. If he figures out how to finish and regains his jumper, he'll be a showstopper.
Yeah, let's just see who is still on the team after this summer
Not getting all these posts that think EWill starts, but Gardner does not. What has EWill shown--IMO not much. If you compare his upside to Gardner's, I believe that Gardner's is greater. And Williams starting over Crowder is ludicrous. Crowder is a better scorer, rebounder, defender and all around player. If Williams starts over Crowder for some silly reason, then certainly Gardner should start over Otule. I guess we will need to wait until next year to sort it out.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 29, 2011, 08:51:59 AM
Not getting all these posts that think EWill starts, but Gardner does not. What has EWill shown--IMO not much. If you compare his upside to Gardner's, I believe that Gardner's is greater. And Williams starting over Crowder is ludicrous. Crowder is a better scorer, rebounder, defender and all around player. If Williams starts over Crowder for some silly reason, then certainly Gardner should start over Otule. I guess we will need to wait until next year to sort it out.
Erik Williams started over Crowder down the stretch for this team, including all 3 NCAA Tournament games. Crowder was obviously a better player and he played significantly more minutes, but he excelled coming off the bench and that's something Buzz may stick with next season.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 29, 2011, 08:51:59 AM
Not getting all these posts that think EWill starts, but Gardner does not. What has EWill shown--IMO not much. If you compare his upside to Gardner's, I believe that Gardner's is greater. And Williams starting over Crowder is ludicrous. Crowder is a better scorer, rebounder, defender and all around player. If Williams starts over Crowder for some silly reason, then certainly Gardner should start over Otule. I guess we will need to wait until next year to sort it out.
Buzz felt that Crowder coming off the bench was better for him than if he started. Same thing happened with DJO last year. Don't be so obsessed with whose name is announced before the game begins.
Quote from: PBRme on March 29, 2011, 07:57:07 AM
Vander showed he could get to the basket all year against all levels of competition. If he figures out how to finish and regains his jumper, he'll be a showstopper.
-1. He definitely didn't get to the basket all year against all levels of competition. His offense severely tapered off once BE play began.
I think it's already been noted on this thread, but the only reason Williams started over Crowder was so that Jae didn't draw any early ticky-tac fouls. You'll notice that EWill was never in th game for more than 5 minutes before Crowder took over for him. I will say though that those minutes have been valuable for EWill.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 29, 2011, 08:51:59 AMNot getting all these posts that think EWill starts, but Gardner does not. What has EWill shown--IMO not much. If you compare his upside to Gardner's, I believe that Gardner's is greater. And Williams starting over Crowder is ludicrous. Crowder is a better scorer, rebounder, defender and all around player. If Williams starts over Crowder for some silly reason, then certainly Gardner should start over Otule. I guess we will need to wait until next year to sort it out.
That's because you aren't reading the question. The question is who starts, not who gets more minutes. Williams may start over Crowder to avoid early fouls, which would allow Jae to maximize his minutes despite not getting the start. By the same token, even if Gardner can handle 25 mpg next year, Otule will start because he has a better chance of winning the tip. Gardner's lesser height and limited vertical jump means Otule will always be in there ahead of him for the opening tip-off, and thus he'll get the start, regardless of how many minutes Gardner may get the rest of the way.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 29, 2011, 09:04:43 AM
Buzz felt that Crowder coming off the bench was better for him than if he started. Same thing happened with DJO last year. Don't be so obsessed with whose name is announced before the game begins.
Jae will need to be better than he was this year. He had a great season, but if we want to compete for a top 5 next year Jae needs to be a serious team leader behind DJO. Come BE play next year, Crowder starts without question. I hope EWill can contribute more than he did this year coming off the bench.
I agree with you completely about Jae. I thought it looked like he hit a wall where he mentally and physically he faded away for stretches late in the year.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 29, 2011, 11:12:03 AM
That's because you aren't reading the question. The question is who starts, not who gets more minutes. Williams may start over Crowder to avoid early fouls, which would allow Jae to maximize his minutes despite not getting the start. By the same token, even if Gardner can handle 25 mpg next year, Otule will start because he has a better chance of winning the tip. Gardner's lesser height and limited vertical jump means Otule will always be in there ahead of him for the opening tip-off, and thus he'll get the start, regardless of how many minutes Gardner may get the rest of the way.
Pretty stupid to start a guy so we can get the tip, considering you have alternate possessions. By that logic we should then start our 5 longest guys to reach the tipped ball better. See how asinine that is? I am not buying the less fouls theory either for Crowder. If that is the case, take him out after 4 minutes and sub somebody else to conserve on Crowders fouls. And since Otule is the most foul prone on the team, then somebody else should start for Otule to conserve on his fouls.
Both of those rationale are bogus.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 29, 2011, 12:16:17 PM
If that is the case, take him out after 4 minutes and sub somebody else to conserve on Crowders fouls.
What's the difference? Seriously, you think its more important that he starts and plays the first four instead of subbing in and playing the next four?
Why are you so obsessed with who starts??
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 29, 2011, 12:20:20 PM
What's the difference? Seriously, you think its more important that he starts and plays the first four instead of subbing in and playing the next four?
Why are you so obsessed with who starts??
+1
Quote from: willie warrior on March 29, 2011, 12:16:17 PM
I am not buying the less fouls theory either for Crowder. If that is the case, take him out after 4 minutes and sub somebody else to conserve on Crowders fouls.
That's exactly what Buzz has done this year, and he has stated the strategy multiple times in press conferences. EWill's role has been to start and play the first four minutes so Jae can go hard and stay out of foul trouble.
I don't care whether you "buy" it or not, that's what Buzz is doing. Whether that strategy stays in place for next year, we'll see.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 29, 2011, 12:16:17 PM
Pretty stupid to start a guy so we can get the tip, considering you have alternate possessions.
If you get the opening tip you are assured of getting at least the same amount of possessions and have a 50% chance of having one more. In the type of games we generally play an extra possession can be crucial.
Its ironic this thread, has remained true to just the starters question, given the ease many jump elsewhere-nice, but...
I am also interested in most minutes, points, assists, rebounds, finishing lineups, go to players in the clutch, SOGs etc., any thoughts on these?
Quote from: houwarrior on March 29, 2011, 01:34:51 PM
Its ironic this thread, has remained true to just the starters question, given the ease many jump elsewhere-nice, but...
I am also interested in most minutes, points, assists, rebounds, finishing lineups, go to players in the clutch, SOGs etc., any thoughts on these?
I think those stats are already being discussed in not so many words. That's already been figured out by starting guys like DJO and Cadougan. But the topic of the thread was who our starting 5 will be, and that has sort of drifted since our starting 5 might not necessarily be our best 5, since Williams has started in place of Crowder for the last 7-8 games. Some guys are in the mindset of "our starting 5 is our best 5" and others are arguing that it isn't necessarily true. I'm with the latter.
During these last few games EWill started but we certainly got more minutes, points, boards out of Jae so you have to take "starting 5" with a grain of salt when it comes to Buzz.
Quote from: Stuckin1977 on March 29, 2011, 02:28:20 PM
I think those stats are already being discussed in not so many words. That's already been figured out by starting guys like DJO and Cadougan. But the topic of the thread was who our starting 5 will be, and that has sort of drifted since our starting 5 might not necessarily be our best 5, since Williams has started in place of Crowder for the last 7-8 games. Some guys are in the mindset of "our starting 5 is our best 5" and others are arguing that it isn't necessarily true. I'm with the latter.
During these last few games EWill started but we certainly got more minutes, points, boards out of Jae so you have to take "starting 5" with a grain of salt when it comes to Buzz.
This thread could probably be titled something more along the lines of "Crunch time line-up next season." In which case, I'd guess...
Cadougan
DJO
Blue
Wilson
Crowder
Occasionally going with Otule as opposed to Wilson or Blue.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 29, 2011, 12:16:17 PMPretty stupid to start a guy so we can get the tip, considering you have alternate possessions. By that logic we should then start our 5 longest guys to reach the tipped ball better. See how asinine that is?
If you can't understand the value of an extra possession for a team that plays in the number of single-possession games we do, I'm not sure how I can help you. Let's just say I'm not the one being asinine. And as only one person jumps for the tip, it's clear you're being ridiculous.
I like the direction this thread has taken. There is every possibility that we are one step closer to Buzz's ideal of 13 high D-1 players, 3PGs, 3 Bigs, 7 interchangeables. So the question isn't necessarily who is going to start, because I predict that, like this year, there will be a fair amount of variation in who starts. I think everybody on the team other than JJ and DG started at some point. And I might be wrong about DG. So the question really becomes, who will be the starters most of the time by the time conference season rolls around and who is going to be on the floor during the last 3 minutes of tight games?
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 29, 2011, 03:33:23 PM
If you can't understand the value of an extra possession for a team that plays in the number of single-possession games we do, I'm not sure how I can help you. Let's just say I'm not the one being asinine. And as only one person jumps for the tip, it's clear you're being ridiculous.
I guess that extra possession thing you are referring too would apply in football too, because you do see teams elect to kick off. yes, only one person jumps for the tip-but he tips it to somebody doesn't he--so with your logic, since you have Otule to tip it, then it follows that you should ensure that you will get the tip by having your longest reaching guys to receiev it.
By the way, how many tips that Otule tipped did we get? I have no idea, but I know I saw several that he was outjumped on.
I go back to what I said, starting a guy just to get the tip is not real smart.
Rod Grosse did it all the time......which I guess proves your point.
Tower---I like the mix on the team but actually wish we stuck with lineup a tad longer. I have no problem of mixing things up during the season to make things happen. However, sometimes I think Buzz overdoes it, either starting lineups or in the game. His first year he seldom switched lineups and now it is revolving door.
His first and second years here he had no bench and therefore no options. What was he going to do, put Hazel or Mbao in? That is why JFB developed so fast; he was the only viable option off of the bench taller than 6'1 (if you believe Cubi was that tall). Now, he has options. Would not be surprised to see even more defensive pressure next year.
Tower--I have been waiting for more defensive pressure and we see it next year. I understand why big three played a ton and more changes this year. Although it sometimes seems to me he is trying to give minutes to just give minutes. If we are playing full court D like I would I understand 1000 subs a game. Our style of play this year could have allowed some more continuity with lineups within the game.
Lets full court press the whole game and play uptempo next year.
I agree. Almost worthy of another thread, but....don't confuse necessity with virtue. Buzz didn't keep a tight rotation his first two years because he wanted to, he had a tight rotation because he had no choice. He has said repeatedly that we wants 13 d1 players, with possibly one of them being redshirted, and he wants a 9.5 man rotation. He more or less achieved that rotation this year. Assuming everyone stays and develops and matures, the best way for him to find minutes for everybody, and the best way to compensate for a team that doesn't have an alpha dog but has lots of athleticism, is to press and get 11 guys double digit minutes a la Missouri (whom, after they beat us, he said he wanted his teams to be like) or even Belmont. Just look at Buzz's words. (Assuming he stays) They will tell you what he wants in a team. Winning basketball, 13 d1 players, 9.5 man rotation, a team like Missouri's ( the one that beat us) The answers are right there.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 29, 2011, 06:16:27 PMI guess that extra possession thing you are referring too would apply in football too, because you do see teams elect to kick off.
No, it doesn't apply to football, too. The first second half possession does
NOT go to the team that lost the opening tip. It goes to the team that had the possession arrow in their favor at the end of the first half. In fact, if you win the tip, have the last possession of the first half, control the possession arrow going into the half, and have the last possession of the game, you can have two more possessions than your opponent. Again, considering the number of one-two possession games we play, it clearly is of vital importance to put ourselves in position to have as many possessions as we possibly can.
And while Otule did occasionally get out-jumped, I would guess that he won at least half the tips, and pretty much always won the tip against shorter opponents. Otule may not be the most polished player and may have deficiencies, but he does very well on the tip. It's laughable to think that DG, despite his clearly superior offensive game, would be better or even close to equal with Otule at winning the tip.
I love DG. I think he will be a very valuable 4-year player for us, and it's not unthinkable that if he can improve his conditioning and defense that he could get enough minutes to possibly be a 15/8 type of guy by his senior year, which would likely mean he'd be at worst second team all-Big East. But unless he can improve his vertical jump massively, he shouldn't be the guy who starts the game strictly based off his jumping ability unless you have a power forward who is in the 6'10" jump-out-of-the-gym mold. Barring injuries, I doubt Gardner will ever take an opening tip while he is at Marquette. He has a great skill set, but winning jump balls is not in his toolbox.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 29, 2011, 07:55:34 PM
He has a great skill set, but winning jumping balls is not in his toolbox.
A little fun, but I hope DG proves me wrong before he's done at MU ;)
Quote from: Victor McCormick on March 28, 2011, 11:35:51 AM
I just got excited thinking about 2 years from now when Otule is a senior and Gardner is a junior.
Assuming even just modest improvement from now until then, we are gonna have some really, really good big men. Its been a while since Marquette has had this kind of size down low.
You could also look at the roster as a whole in that a sweet 16 team, we will be returning a lot of guys who were big contributors from this sweet 16 team to our final four 2012-2013 team: Junior, Blue, Gardner, Otule.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 29, 2011, 07:55:34 PM
No, it doesn't apply to football, too. The first second half possession does NOT go to the team that lost the opening tip. It goes to the team that had the possession arrow in their favor at the end of the first half. In fact, if you win the tip, have the last possession of the first half, control the possession arrow going into the half, and have the last possession of the game, you can have two more possessions than your opponent. Again, considering the number of one-two possession games we play, it clearly is of vital importance to put ourselves in position to have as many possessions as we possibly can.
And while Otule did occasionally get out-jumped, I would guess that he won at least half the tips, and pretty much always won the tip against shorter opponents. Otule may not be the most polished player and may have deficiencies, but he does very well on the tip. It's laughable to think that DG, despite his clearly superior offensive game, would be better or even close to equal with Otule at winning the tip.
I love DG. I think he will be a very valuable 4-year player for us, and it's not unthinkable that if he can improve his conditioning and defense that he could get enough minutes to possibly be a 15/8 type of guy by his senior year, which would likely mean he'd be at worst second team all-Big East. But unless he can improve his vertical jump massively, he shouldn't be the guy who starts the game strictly based off his jumping ability unless you have a power forward who is in the 6'10" jump-out-of-the-gym mold. Barring injuries, I doubt Gardner will ever take an opening tip while he is at Marquette. He has a great skill set, but winning jump balls is not in his toolbox.
What's really laughable is you defending starting a guy for what you say who may win the opening tip half the time. I never advocated starting Gardner for the opening tip--you advocated Otule for that reason. No sense debating this anymore--IMO Gardner should be playing the majority of the minutes. And if as you say and others say that Williams should start over Crowder to "save on fouls for Crowder", then start somebody else over Otule for the same reason--Otule is the most foul prone/or close to it on the team. Save his fouls for the same reason.
Lots of holes in the reasons/logic given for some of Buzz's decisions.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 30, 2011, 06:20:44 AMWhat's really laughable is you defending starting a guy for what you say who may win the opening tip half the time. I never advocated starting Gardner for the opening tip--you advocated Otule for that reason. No sense debating this anymore--IMO Gardner should be playing the majority of the minutes. And if as you say and others say that Williams should start over Crowder to "save on fouls for Crowder", then start somebody else over Otule for the same reason--Otule is the most foul prone/or close to it on the team. Save his fouls for the same reason.
Lots of holes in the reasons/logic given for some of Buzz's decisions.
It's more laughable that you don't seem to know the rules of basketball, such as how possession works. And if not Otule, who would you start to win the opening tip? Who do you think can outjump Otule? Otule is a defensive stud and can chip in on offense, especially early. As a starter, you have made no rational explanation of why anyone should start over Otule. This has absolutely jack-all to do with who gets the highest number of minutes. It's about starting. And Otule should start. Unless there's someone else who can win the tip, winning the possession battle is worth risking one early foul for.
Lets full court press the whole game and play uptempo next year.
[/quote]
Up tempo yes. Full court press the whole game is not a good idea. Big East caliber teams would have no problem shredding a full court press. You are taking a gamble when you full court press. It is a high risk defense that you wouldn't want to play the entire game. There is a reason why teams do not full court press the whole game. I do agree we could do it more often, but not a good base defense.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 30, 2011, 06:20:44 AM
What's really laughable is you defending starting a guy for what you say who may win the opening tip half the time. I never advocated starting Gardner for the opening tip--you advocated Otule for that reason. No sense debating this anymore--IMO Gardner should be playing the majority of the minutes. And if as you say and others say that Williams should start over Crowder to "save on fouls for Crowder", then start somebody else over Otule for the same reason--Otule is the most foul prone/or close to it on the team. Save his fouls for the same reason.
Lots of holes in the reasons/logic given for some of Buzz's decisions.
Buzz, himself, made the comment about why EWill starts and Crowder comes off the bench. Posters are just repeating it.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 30, 2011, 06:20:44 AM
What's really laughable is you defending starting a guy for what you say who may win the opening tip half the time. I never advocated starting Gardner for the opening tip--you advocated Otule for that reason. No sense debating this anymore--IMO Gardner should be playing the majority of the minutes. And if as you say and others say that Williams should start over Crowder to "save on fouls for Crowder", then start somebody else over Otule for the same reason--Otule is the most foul prone/or close to it on the team. Save his fouls for the same reason.
Lots of holes in the reasons/logic given for some of Buzz's decisions.
Otule will start because he's better at basketball.
You don't need to worry about any of the other rationale.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 30, 2011, 07:12:05 AM
It's more laughable that you don't seem to know the rules of basketball, such as how possession works. And if not Otule, who would you start to win the opening tip? Who do you think can outjump Otule? Otule is a defensive stud and can chip in on offense, especially early. As a starter, you have made no rational explanation of why anyone should start over Otule. This has absolutely jack-all to do with who gets the highest number of minutes. It's about starting. And Otule should start. Unless there's someone else who can win the tip, winning the possession battle is worth risking one early foul for.
From a pure "who do you want to get the opening tip-off" perspective, not only can Otule jump higher than Gardner, but
Otule is the tallest player on the team.
Quote from: hairyworthen on March 30, 2011, 07:34:50 AM
Up tempo yes. Full court press the whole game is not a good idea. Big East caliber teams would have no problem shredding a full court press. You are taking a gamble when you full court press. It is a high risk defense that you wouldn't want to play the entire game. There is a reason why teams do not full court press the whole game. I do agree we could do it more often, but not a good base defense.
+1
Rick Pitino used to full-court press most of the game while at Providence. There is a reason he doesn't do it anymore...only as a change up. It is an inherently weak defense.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 30, 2011, 07:12:05 AM
It's more laughable that you don't seem to know the rules of basketball, such as how possession works. And if not Otule, who would you start to win the opening tip? Who do you think can outjump Otule? Otule is a defensive stud and can chip in on offense, especially early. As a starter, you have made no rational explanation of why anyone should start over Otule. This has absolutely jack-all to do with who gets the highest number of minutes. It's about starting. And Otule should start. Unless there's someone else who can win the tip, winning the possession battle is worth risking one early foul for.
HMMMM..... That is a good one, Otule is a defensive stud. A real good one. You sure can bank on that.
Yeah, I am not sure "stud" is the word I would use. I mean, he is nice. He can block shots and position himself well, but he is overmatched often.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 30, 2011, 10:37:13 AM
HMMMM..... That is a good one, Otule is a defensive stud. A real good one. You sure can bank on that.
I'll take that as the "I don't have any further legitimate argument so I'll try to insult our players" approach to posting.
I believe Buzz finally makes a push to start with defense next year, and to do that you have to have Otule's ability to deny at the rim, and Vander's ability to pick opponents clean. While your line-up is a good one, I actually believe our best line-up is:
1 - Junior Cadougan
2 - Darius Johnson-Odom
3 - Vander Blue (Jamil Wilson vs. tall opponents)
4 - Jae Crowder
5 - Chris Otule
I know we are going small again, but with Otule backing them up, I believe small is our best option.
But I seriously think all 13 guys get a start next year. Who could believe we've gone from making the 3 Amigos and Lazar play almost all 40 minutes each to this as our backup options!
1. Derrick Wilson or David Singleton
2 - Todd Mayo
3 - Jamil Wilson (when not starting) or Jamail Jones
4 - Erik Williams or Juan Anderson (4-stars do take off Junior year, so you could be right on EWill)
5 - Davante Gardner (please a lot more minutes than last year!)
Quote from: Badgerhater on March 28, 2011, 01:26:08 PM
Vander will be fine. This summer he will be in Milwaukee and not part of the National Team. Being part of that team was indeed a great thing, but it's more important for him right now is to be in the AL everyday and start the process of becoming a leader on the team.
Vander HAS to succeed. Here we are with a five-star recruit (or high four star). If he is a flop in college, some of that flop will be attributed to Buzz, no matter how little Buzz had to do with it. That will deter future highly regarded recruits from coming here.
I want Vander to succeed because if he does, we have another Butch Lee or Glenn Rivers on our hands.
He seems like he's a great kid and if his attitude is there, we'll be fine and so will he. Go to it Vander -- we want YOUR team's banner in the Bradley Center too!
We all appreciate Van as a stopper which makes me think what would be the ideal five for the man-to-man pressure defense? Van is certainly here.
With a successful zone defense employed at times this year, who makes the all zone team? I guess you start with the height and wingspan so CO and maybe E Will are in, right? Good place for Jae to save on fouls too. Is this the only time DG and CT get court time together?
Quote from: bamamarquettefan on March 30, 2011, 11:45:43 PM
I believe Buzz finally makes a push to start with defense next year, and to do that you have to have Otule's ability to deny at the rim, and Vander's ability to pick opponents clean. While your line-up is a good one, I actually believe our best line-up is:
1 - Junior Cadougan
2 - Darius Johnson-Odom
3 - Vander Blue (Jamil Wilson vs. tall opponents)
4 - Jae Crowder
5 - Chris Otule
I know we are going small again, but with Otule backing them up, I believe small is our best option.
But I seriously think all 13 guys get a start next year. Who could believe we've gone from making the 3 Amigos and Lazar play almost all 40 minutes each to this as our backup options!
1. Derrick Wilson or David Singleton
2 - Todd Mayo
3 - Jamil Wilson (when not starting) or Jamail Jones
4 - Erik Williams or Juan Anderson (4-stars do take off Junior year, so you could be right on EWill)
5 - Davante Gardner (please a lot more minutes than last year!)
1. I don't think starting Junior, DJO and Vander is really that "small". It's technically a 3G line-up, but both DJO and Vander have good size and could guard a college SF.
2. I just don't see Mayo getting any run next year. Hopefully he turns out to be great, but I just keep thinking of Jamail, who a lot of people were pumped about last season. He only saw garbage minutes as a frosh. I'd image Mayo will get something similar.
3. I love the depth on this team, and I think you could see 5 guys average double figures. DJO, Jae, Junior, Vander, J. Wilson.
4. In the fall, I think we might see Vander working out some at the PG position. Just a hunch.
5. This team will go as far as Blue, Junior and EWill improve. If those guys improve a lot, this team could compete for a Big East title. If they improve a little bit, the team is probably looking at 9-9 again.
Agreed, and believe that the key to next year is Vander improving AND Vander showing he can play point. If he does that, then there are so many more options with him playing shooting guard, but then when Junior sits just moving Vander over to the point which gives Buzz a million more options for line-ups. If we are covering up for a freshman growing pains at PG in the Big East, then the minutes Junior is on the bench will be dangerous stretches.
Whatever the starting line up may be next year, I just hope that Buzz finds a CONSISTENT rotation at the begining of the year and sticks with it. I hated how he flip floped the starting lineup so much this season, I think it really hurt the confidence of some of the players at the begining of the year, especially DJO. I think it really helps when the players know their roll as a bench player or a starter because it makes it easier for them to get into a rythm on the floor. I would like to see Buzz establish a rotation durring the first 5 games then stick with it. Also I hate how Erik Williams starts, and only plays 3 minutes in the entire game, Why start him them? Next year, I like the lineup of Cadougan, DJO, Crowder, Wilson, and Otule. Off the bench i see Blue, Gardner, Jones, and Ewill. I think the freshman are going to be riding the pine the entire year.
Outside of the first handful of games, we pretty much had a consistent starting rotation throughout much of the year. DB, DJO, JFB and CO...with Jae starting for a bit, but then Buzz deciding it was better for him to come off the bench.
The lack of a consistent starting rotation at the beginning of the year didn't lose us a single game, and I think gives Buzz some good ideas about how players react to certain situations.
Quote from: bamamarquettefan on March 31, 2011, 01:36:19 PM
Agreed, and believe that the key to next year is Vander improving AND Vander showing he can play point. If he does that, then there are so many more options with him playing shooting guard, but then when Junior sits just moving Vander over to the point which gives Buzz a million more options for line-ups. If we are covering up for a freshman growing pains at PG in the Big East, then the minutes Junior is on the bench will be dangerous stretches.
Don't think he is a natural point--but maybe he should be there, because he sure as hell is not a shooting guard.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 01, 2011, 07:52:55 AM
The lack of a consistent starting rotation at the beginning of the year didn't lose us a single game, and I think gives Buzz some good ideas about how players react to certain situations.
But we came damn close to losing to Bucknell and UWM
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 01, 2011, 07:52:55 AM
The lack of a consistent starting rotation at the beginning of the year didn't lose us a single game, and I think gives Buzz some good ideas about how players react to certain situations.
It may not have lost us any games, but I think it was in direct correlation with DJO's extremely poor start. He shot the ball awful in the non conference schedule, then, once he started starting consistently, like he should have been the entire year, he played much better. It hurts guys confidence when they think they should be starting and they come off the bench, and we defiantly saw that in the case of DJO.
Quote from: flash on April 01, 2011, 10:13:20 AM
It may not have lost us any games, but I think it was in direct correlation with DJO's extremely poor start. He shot the ball awful in the non conference schedule, then, once he started starting consistently, like he should have been the entire year, he played much better. It hurts guys confidence when they think they should be starting and they come off the bench, and we defiantly saw that in the case of DJO.
I think you also saw it in Gardner and Cadougan when they both disappeared for a while there. When Buzz started to give them more minutes, they both did well. No question that for some kids, jerking them out of the lineup messes their confidence.
Quote from: flash on April 01, 2011, 10:13:20 AM
It may not have lost us any games, but I think it was in direct correlation with DJO's extremely poor start. He shot the ball awful in the non conference schedule, then, once he started starting consistently, like he should have been the entire year, he played much better. It hurts guys confidence when they think they should be starting and they come off the bench, and we defiantly saw that in the case of DJO.
I view that more as a coincidence than a cause - reports about his poor shooting started last summer before the season even began. But neither you nor I have any clue about what level of confidence he had and what may or may not have caused it.
Quote from: willie warrior on April 01, 2011, 10:18:38 AM
I think you also saw it in Gardner and Cadougan when they both disappeared for a while there. When Buzz started to give them more minutes, they both did well.
Well, that's because neither one of them had significant minutes at division one basketball. You think that the experience factor had anything to do with their increased performance? Or do you automatically assume that Buzz was messing with their heads?
I think Buzz knows what he is doing here.
I trust that Buzz knows more than me, so if he likes to juggle, I guess I'm good with that.
However, my personal preference would be to establish a consistent rotation so guys can learn and know their roles. By the end of the year, Erik Williams was a ok role player. They were able to "steal" 8min. per game out of him without a huge drop off, and I think that's where a consistent rotation could help players.
Earlier in the year, E.Will was in and out so much that his mistakes were greatly magnified and I'm sure it was hard for him to really know how he could help the team, i.e. what role he is filling.
This upcoming season, we will see how strategic Buzz is now that he has more chess pieces to move around.
I think the juggling next year will be more of same. Buzz can get away with switching up the line-up every game in OOC play because 80% of the teams we play are jokes. Although, that's probably a strong reason for why we went 0-4 against legit teams between November and December this season.
Just like this past season, Buzz will have it figured out by January and everyone will/should know what their role is.
You can't have this many pieces and expect to have a set line-up in November. Simply not practical.
Too many posts to remember who had this first, but here goes.
Point - Cadougan
Shooting Guard - DJO
Small Forward - Crowder
Power Forward - Wilson
Center - Otule
Cadougan,DJO,Wilson,Crowder, Otule- for BIG
Cadougan,DJO, Blue, Williams, Gardner for small
Also look for freshman Todd Mayo (brother of O.J. Mayo) to get some playing time
The line up will juggle all year there is to much talent on the roster for a set 5