There was a lot of chatter here earlier this summer - from one board member in particular - regarding how squirmish our continued recrutiment of JUCO's made him...due to image reasons, etc.
As this season moves forward are best 4 players are: Butler, DJO, Crowder, Buycks (of course all JUCO's)
Thank you Buzz for having some connections at the JUCO level and keeping the MU program at a high level. Due to MU being able to recruit these JUCO's we haven't had to face the drop off many projected after Tom Crean left. It's been nice to see these kids develop as players and people. They have all been model citizens at MU, and are performing at a high level. The only downside is we don't get to enjoy "knowing" them for 4 years.
Here's to hoping Buzz continues to keep the JUCO pipeline open for the right kinds of kids/players. Equal opportunity is a calling card of a Jesuit education/university.
Quote from: Ners on January 01, 2011, 11:42:10 PM
There was a lot of chatter here earlier this summer - from one board member in particular - regarding how squirmish our continued recrutiment of JUCO's made him...due to image reasons, etc. As this season moves forward are best 4 players are: Butler, DJO, Crowder, Buycks (of course all JUCO's) Thank you Buzz for having some connections at the JUCO level and keeping the MU program at a high level. Due to MU being able to recruit these JUCO's we haven't had to face the drop off many projected after Tom Crean left. It's been nice to see these kids develop as players and people. They have all been model citizens at MU, and are performing at a high level. The only downside is we don't get to enjoy "knowing" them for 4 years. Here's to hoping Buzz continues to keep the JUCO pipeline open for the right kinds of kids/players. Equal opportunity is a calling card of a Jesuit education/university.
Al had a hard pipeline to Saddleback Community College. We don't have a Natl Championship without Jucos
Buzz sees the value of JUCOs and the experience they can bring. In the present situation, there was no choice but to go the JUCO route or play a bunch of freshmen and sophomores. Tommy Boy took care of that real well.
None of the Jucos Buzz has recruited have given us any reason to be squirmish in the slightest. Keep'em coming Buzz.
You want a squirmish thought ... imagine the 2003 rumours turned out to be true ...
* Roy Williams goes from Kansas to UNC
* Bill Self goes from Illinois to Kansas
* Crean was suppose to go from MU to Illinois
* Then Bruce Pearl was going to leave UWM to take an open MU
What would be the state of our program today?
Anyone got a site/link to review the top JUCO candidates for our potential two openings
Quote from: nyg on January 02, 2011, 08:02:04 AM
Anyone got a site/link to review the top JUCO candidates for our potential two openings
It's usually really hard to find any info on top JUCOs. But after doing some digging, I did find this page:
http://rivals.yahoo.com/jucojunction/basketball/recruiting/rankings/rank-2769;_ylt=An32wQgTUuaceQbgIW2JfRVrWpB4
Last year they had Jae Crowder as the #14 JUCO prospect, and there's a few familiar names on this one, including Montarale Clark and God's Gift Achiuwa. However, they don't list us as being in on Achiuwa, nor do they mention St. John's, and from what I've read we're the two leading candidates for him. Doesn't seem to be nearly as updated as the regular Rivals board is, but it's something.
Thanks. Noticed Johny Lacy on the board also.
Is Lacy still facing felony charges in Providence? He announced his transfer *before* his arrest, which means IMO that he didn't think he was getting playing time at PC. Honestly, I doubt he is BE material and we would only get him for two years anyway. Unless he has vastly improved, and coaches have lost all faith in Junior to run the point...
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 02, 2011, 07:50:49 AM
None of the Jucos Buzz has recruited have given us any reason to be squirmish in the slightest. Keep'em coming Buzz.
You want a squirmish thought ... imagine the 2003 rumours turned out to be true ...
* Roy Williams goes from Kansas to UNC
* Bill Self goes from Illinois to Kansas
* Crean was suppose to go from MU to Illinois
* Then Bruce Pearl was going to leave UWM to take an open MU
What would be the state of our program today?
Orwell,
I can tell you and everyone else in the world that Bruce was never in play for MU. Take it to the bank. Also, for everyone's information, so that these rumors flame out, the University of Illinois never offered Crean. Were not mesmerized by him at the interview. Bank it as well.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 02, 2011, 08:44:23 AM
Orwell,
I can tell you and everyone else in the world that Bruce was never in play for MU. Take it to the bank. Also, for everyone's information, so that these rumors flame out, the University of Illinois never offered Crean. Were not mesmerized by him at the interview. Bank it as well.
Are you sure??? I read it in Andy Katz's column and he's never wrong. That's why he gets to play basketball with Obama.
Quote from: warthog-driver on January 02, 2011, 12:05:17 AM
Al had a hard pipeline to Saddleback Community College. We don't have a Natl Championship without Jucos
Wasn't it Rick's pipeline? RM was tight with the Irishman from Chicago (can't remember his name) who was the coach at Saddleback?
Quote from: warthog-driver on January 02, 2011, 12:05:17 AM
Al had a hard pipeline to Saddleback Community College. We don't have a Natl Championship without Jucos
Al never signed a guy from Saddleback, so not much of a pipeline.
If you mean Saddleback's coach Bill Mulligan sent multiple players to MU, you'd be correct. Jerome Whitehead played for Mulligan at Riverside Community College and Raymonds signed Artie Green out of Mulligan coached Saddleback a few short years later.
At the end of the day, there just isn't much high major talent in Wisconsin - maybe 2-3 players per year - and generally UW has had a slight advantage in getting those kids. So, every program has to have its lifeline for talent. If the JUCO route becomes Marquette's - and the caliber and quality of kids continue to be what they've been - MU should continue to try to land JUCO Players of the Year, 1st Team All-Americans, etc.
On another note - I'm sure it won't be long before someone attempts to say that Buzz can't develop high school players..as I'd seen over the summer. The reality is that Buzz's first High School recruits are just sophomores - Cadougan and Williams. Seems Vander and Gardner have shown enough to put to rest that complaint...and Otule has shown some flashes of having come a long way.
Buzz has also talked about JUCOs as not having the feeling of entitlement (my summary not his exact words) that occurs with Freshmen. He indicates that the JUCOs appreciate the silver spoon treatment and he likes to have them around.
Quote from: Ners on January 01, 2011, 11:42:10 PM
There was a lot of chatter here earlier this summer - from one board member in particular - regarding how squirmish our continued recrutiment of JUCO's made him...due to image reasons, etc.
As this season moves forward are best 4 players are: Butler, DJO, Crowder, Buycks (of course all JUCO's)
Thank you Buzz for having some connections at the JUCO level and keeping the MU program at a high level. Due to MU being able to recruit these JUCO's we haven't had to face the drop off many projected after Tom Crean left. It's been nice to see these kids develop as players and people. They have all been model citizens at MU, and are performing at a high level. The only downside is we don't get to enjoy "knowing" them for 4 years.
Here's to hoping Buzz continues to keep the JUCO pipeline open for the right kinds of kids/players. Equal opportunity is a calling card of a Jesuit education/university.
Ners, you know I apologized publicly here for my comments about JUCO players 6 months ago and now you bring this up? I've held up my bargain. For your memory cells
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=21172.0
Oh, and way back in 2009 http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15452.msg147776#msg147776
You really do want to keep playing this game, don't you....even after someone said they won't go there anymore? Interesting.
As for the squeamish part, wrong, at least that wasn't the main reason. My squeamish feelings come from continuing to recruit kids that have already verballed elsewhere, trying to get kids to transfer that are under scholarship elsewhere (against NCAA rules), running off players when we sign them to NLIs, etc, etc. That's what makes me squeamish.
And yes, Crean left the classes in bad shape after year 3. Equally so, going after complete red flags like Jerrone Maymon did the same thing, but for whatever reason that never crosses your keyboard.
I like our JUCOs, but I don't want a program built on them forever.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on January 02, 2011, 10:53:07 AM
I like our JUCOs, but I don't want a program built on them forever.
+1 Which is what I said back in 2009 and 2010. For stability reasons, we need kids here for four years, not 2 years that take half to a full season to get up to speed (Crowder being an exception).
When you are left in the lurch in year three (with no holdovers from the previous regime) jucos and/or transfers are a necessity (unless you're Kentucky). Buzz got Butler, DJO, Buycks and Crowder. TC got some stiffs from junior college and a stiff transfer (Rivers). When people criticize what we look like after a total roster turnover in three years maybe a look at a similar situation at a top 6 program 300 miles southeast would prove enlightening.
I have to wonder if the TC excuse will be used in years 5, 7 and 9. I sure hope so, it keeps the board running.
We can totally ignore whiffs on players that way, whiffs that also take 2 to 3 years to recover because we lose that player, have to sign a new one usually two years after the original player committed. Nah, that has nothing to do with it.
In general, I would prefer we minimize the number of JUCO's on the team. It has nothing to do with the personality of the coach, but some valid reasons:
1. Added recruiting time/cost/effort. Jucos last about half as long as a four-year player, so you have to recruit twice as many of them over time.
2. Like it or not, there is a national perception that JUCOs reflect a compromised academic standard. You don't see four or five JUCOs on the team at schools like Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Boston College, Villanova, Xavier, St. Louis, Bradley, Dayton, Butler, etc.
3. It institutionalizes the common complaint that we don't have enough 3- and 4-year players on the team. Jucos simply don't stay that long. Bucyks or Crowder will never be a 4-year player at MU. Given that many feel that one of our problems THIS year is lack of juniors and seniors, then it is inconsistent to turn around and claim that you support recruiting JUCOs--since those players typically won't get to a 3rd or 4th season.
Ironically, the biggest supporters of JUCOs on this board are the very same people who will turn around and rip the previous coach because we don't have any 4-year seniors. Well, which is it? Are 4-year players that important? If yes, then how can you like JUCOs?
4. The best players in college don't come from the JUCO ranks. Check the NBA mock draft board for 2011. Check the Naismith awards lists. You won't find many former JUCO names.
5. It perpetuates the "inexperience" excuse for low expectations. You can be a 24 year old senior on the team (with 4 years of HS, a year of prep, 2 years of JUCO before a junior season at MU) and someone will be making the claim that we can't expect much because "he only has one year of D1 experience."
6. It puts questions in the heads of your current roster as to where they stand on the team. Take the scenario of God's Gift Achiuwa. If he comes in, he's a junior--same as Otule, and one year ahead of Gardner, all three playing the same position. What are you to think if you're Otule and Gardner? And what type of hurt is the team in two years hence, when both Otule and Achiuwa leave in the same season?
And please, spare me the "we have a deep roster" argument. Yesterday we used 8 players, only 7 of them got more than 10 minutes. Crowder with 39 minutes, Butler 35, Otule & DJO both 29, Buycks 27. Despite what some have called the deepest roster 1-12 that we've ever had, Buzz gives his top seven the majority of minutes. And the top 7 isn't going to include 3 centers--two maybe, but not three.
In my mind, the ideal strategy is to recruit players capable of starting from day one, but not needed until year 2. The PG transition from Miller to Hutchins or Henry to Diener is ideal example. Or if you want a non-MU example, how about Keemba Walker or Maalik Wayns--starting quality, but getting strong minutes as frosh, willing to wait one year to become the 3-year starter.
The second best would be to bring in 4-year starters--players like McNeal, Matthews, James or Blue. And then give them sufficient time to get through the growing pains. This is the approach Lavin is taking at St. Johns. Eight recruits, seven frosh (six in ESPN's top 100). O'Niell took a similar approach when he arrived at MU.
Well, hopefully having Otule, Cadougan, and Williams all reaching their junior years next year will help get us to the point where we are primarily recruiting freshmen. I still think we could use another JUCO this year, whether it's a more experienced point guard to help ease the load on Caddy and Blue or an experienced big man to provide a running mate for Otule and Gardner so we can have two legitimate bigs in the game at the same time.
Two schollies left, and at this point of the recruiting cycle, it often seems the best players available are JUCO transfers. But I hope that in two years, when we will likely have seniors like Otule and Cadougan and juniors like Blue, Wilson, and Gardner, the need for using JUCOs to provide experience and balance the classes will decline. Nothing wrong with going for them, but I agree with what Chicos said in one of his links that I would prefer four-year players when it is possible.
Basically, once again...anything that contibutes to the success of the Marquette Basketball program under Buzz Williams isn't the right way of doing things for Chicos and Marquette84.
This thread was started to highlight the contributions our JUCO players are making on the court, how they are performing off the court, and how they are representing Marquette University - after a summer in which a select few here continued to complain about recruiting JUCO's.
Why the complaints? One simple reason - because they are helping Marquette be successful under Buzz Williams - which some continue to have a ridiculous agenda against even though they are allegedly MU fans.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 02, 2011, 10:46:47 AM
As for the squeamish part, wrong, at least that wasn't the main reason. My squeamish feelings come from continuing to recruit kids that have already verballed elsewhere, trying to get kids to transfer that are under scholarship elsewhere (against NCAA rules), running off players when we sign them to NLIs, etc, etc. That's what makes me squeamish.
So in other words things like: 1) Trying to get Nick Williams and Tyshawn Taylor to break their NLI's with MU and go to IU? 2) Oversigning, such as the Damien Saunders scenario and Jamil Wilson scenario?
I get it. Standard Double Standards for you. Rumors you "hear from people in the know," are true as it pertains to MU recruiting under Buzz, but if your boy Tommy C does the same at IU - of course it is different and your sources tell you as much.
This thread wasn't started to devolve into this..but again to highlight the great contributions our JUCO players are making..but once again you can't help yourself from yourself. Trying to protect your agenda and having a double standard invariably leads to putting your foot in your mouth..over and over..and over again. Give it up. It's 2011.
Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2011, 11:19:59 AM
Basically, once again...anything that contibutes to the success of the Marquette Basketball program under Buzz Williams isn't the right way of doing things for Chicos and Marquette84.
This thread was started to highlight the contributions our JUCO players are making on the court, how they are performing off the court, and how they are representing Marquette University - after a summer in which a select few here continued to complain about recruiting JUCO's.
Why the complaints? One simple reason - because they are helping Marquette be successful under Buzz Williams - which some continue to have a ridiculous agenda against even though they are allegedly MU fans.
Bullshyte. This thread was started for you to get your rocks off and try to rub some dirt in people's faces.
What's worse, you've ignored the threads and posts of the very people you are attacking who have praised these JUCOs, because it doesn't fit into your little attack sequence.
At the end of the day, MU needs 4 year players for all the obvious reasons. It's terrific that the JUCOs led the way yesterday. It's not a long term viable strategy.
On a side note, it's ironic as hell that you start this thread considering your affliction toward players that led our team the last two years to the NCAA tournament considering they were players brought in by someone you despise. The double standards by you continue daily, keep them coming.
Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2011, 11:26:32 AM
So in other words things like: 1) Trying to get Nick Williams and Tyshawn Taylor to break their NLI's with MU and go to IU? 2) Oversigning, such as the Damien Saunders scenario and Jamil Wilson scenario?
I get it. Standard Double Standards for you. Rumors you "hear from people in the know," are true as it pertains to MU recruiting under Buzz, but if your boy Tommy C does the same at IU - of course it is different and your sources tell you as much.
This thread wasn't started to devolve into this..but again to highlight the great contributions our JUCO players are making..but once again you can't help yourself from yourself. Trying to protect your agenda and have a double standard invariably leads to putting your foot in your mouth..over and over..and over again. Give it up. It's 2011.
This is exactly why you started this thread or you wouldn't have put all the other comments in there. You know EXACTLY why you started it. Give it up. It's 2011
Better get your facts straight Ners, because you're wrong again on several fronts. Buzz didn't want Nick Williams so there was no NLI to break. He was released immediately because Williams said he was going with Crean. No need to break the NLI on that one, it was going to happen and MUTUALLY AGREED UPON. On some of the others, you are correct, but at least get your facts straight. I realize the Metroplex is a bit more on appearances and lacking in facts down there, try to get some.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 02, 2011, 11:02:13 AM
I have to wonder if the TC excuse will be used in years 5, 7 and 9. I sure hope so, it keeps the board running.
The "TC excuse will expire " as you call it, or reality, as any fair minded person refers to it, will expire after next year, when the second empty class Crean left us graduates.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 02, 2011, 11:02:13 AM
I have to wonder if the TC excuse will be used in years 5, 7 and 9. I sure hope so, it keeps the board running.
We can totally ignore whiffs on players that way, whiffs that also take 2 to 3 years to recover because we lose that player, have to sign a new one usually two years after the original player committed. Nah, that has nothing to do with it.
I thought the same thing reading this thread.
I understand some JUCOs were needed to plug holes when we lost Taylor, Williams, and Christopherson (perhaps even including Mbakwe) but why is Crean to blame for the openings caused by Clark being dropped, Roseboro and Newbill not being taken, missing on flyers McMorrow and Mbao, and then losing semester transfers Maymon and Smith?
Buzz has done well with his JUCOs, but, to focus on that alone while absolving him of mistakes made on his gambles (and, in turn, blaming Crean) takes the shine out of the former.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 02, 2011, 11:33:32 AM
The "TC excuse will expire " as you call it, or reality, as any fair minded person refers to it, will expire after next year, when the second empty class Crean left us graduates.
I see...interesting. Can I hold you to that or is there an exemption clause somewhere?
I'm curious since he left 2.5 seasons ago, what we've been doing to fill the void in classes?
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on January 02, 2011, 11:33:55 AM
I understand some JUCOs were needed to plug holes when we lost Taylor, Williams, and Christopherson (perhaps even including Mbakwe) but why is Crean to blame for the openings caused by Clark being dropped, Roseboro and Newbill not being taken, missing on flyers McMorrow and Mbao, and then losing semester transfers Maymon and Smith?
Shhhh....don't bring logic into the discussion, it ruins the whole Crean hatefest they have going on. You know what, I'll bet I could be Lenny and make a statement that the "Vast majority of his posts referencing Crean are negative"...difference is, I would be right and he would admit it also.
Of course, any sensible person without an agenda (please exclude Ners, Lenny and 3 or 4 others) absolutely cannot ignore Maymon, McMorrow, Mbao, Clark, Roseboro, Smith, Newbill, etc because they all came at Buzz's direction. 7+ players...no no no, those are Crean's fault, not Buzz. It's almost too precious to read anymore, but these clowns actually believe it.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 02, 2011, 11:27:13 AM
Bullshyte. This thread was started for you to get your rocks off and try to rub some dirt in people's faces.
When someone who leads the league in staring threads to get his rocks off and rub dirt in others faces goes all whiney when the tables are turned I have to laugh. True hypocrisy.
Crean left in a douchebag fashion after leveraging offers for raises from Marquette for years. I personally don't blame him for the state we're in, and try not to think about him, but I also don't blame anyone for slinging mud in his general direction any more than I would blame them for slinging mud at a guy like Huggins (also a douchebag, though for different reasons).
While the "blame TC" should logically go away once Williams and Cadougan are seniors, he's still going to get mud slung at him from Marquette fans who simply don't like him. I don't think you can blame anyone for that.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 02, 2011, 11:41:52 AM
When someone who leads the league in staring threads to get his rocks off and rub dirt in others faces goes all whiney when the tables are turned I have to laugh. True hypocrisy.
I man up and admit it. Ners doesn't and even lies about what his intentions are. Sorry you don't understand the difference, probably too nuanced for you.
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on January 02, 2011, 11:33:55 AM
but why is Crean to blame for the openings caused by Clark being dropped, Roseboro and Newbill not being taken, missing on flyers McMorrow and Mbao, and then losing semester transfers Maymon and Smith?
Where did anybody blame Crean for the above in this thread? The answer? No where. So why try to make something out of nothing? I probably could have added you to the Chicos and Marquette 84 faction..but generally you seem to not be so blatantly obvious.
Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2011, 11:45:11 AM
Where did anybody blame Crean for the above in this thread? The answer? No where. So why try to make something out of nothing? I probably could have added you to the Chicos and Marquette 84 faction..but generally you seem to not be so blatantly obvious.
You can't be this dense....wait....yes you can. MU is in this pickle because of Crean, don't you get it? Didn't your read the memo or the very posts IN THIS THREAD? It's not because of Buzz's misses, no...it's because of a guy that left 2.5 years ago.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=23225.msg256820#msg256820
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=23225.msg256772#msg256772
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=23225.msg256840#msg256840
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 02, 2011, 11:44:58 AM
I man up and admit it. Ners doesn't and even lies about what his intentions are. Sorry you don't understand the difference, probably too nuanced for you.
Chicos - The irony of all of this is I never had bad-will toward Tom Crean..but after being a member here for 1.5 years and seeing how ridiculous you are in your persecution of Buzz and defense of Tom Crean..it's made me disgusted. Here is a post of mine....go look at my first posts as an MUScoop member numbers 1710 and 1711..I defend the crap out of Crean...but over time, seeing as to how primarily YOU and 84 always cast Buzz in a bad light...I lose all respect..as I was objective initially in my evaluation of you...but you get what you earn. I suspect others here feel the same way..and this is largely why TC gets a bad rap around here..due to you.
Posted by me November 21, 2009
"While I've never had any personal dealings with Tom Crean, and I've read here some people who have thought he evloved into an ass - I do think it is time for people to get off the Tom Crean Hate Wagon. Stating the obvious, but the Tom Crean era really turned the image and perception of Marquette Basketball around. The Al MacGuire center became a reality - a much needed facility/tool needed for training and recruiting. Crean brought Buzz Williams on staff, and left behind a great situation for Buzz. Buzz is taking the torch and running with it, and all signs indicate he could take the program to a level not seen since Al. I just wish more MU fans would show some gratitude to Tom Crean. Some posters here come off as bitter, even whiney girl types. Who cares is Tom Crean used a tanning bed or not?? Really people. Stop dissecting the guy and be grateful for what he did for our program. Time to get over it."
Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2011, 11:58:44 AM
Chicos - The irony of all of this is I never had bad-will toward Tom Crean..but after being a member here for 1.5 years and seeing how ridiculous you are in your persecution of Buzz and defense of Tom Crean..it's made me disgusted. Here is a post of mine....go look at my first posts as an MUScoop member numbers 1710 and 1711..I defend the crap out of Crean...but over time, seeing as to how primarily YOU and 84 always cast Buzz in a bad light...I lose all respect..as I was objective initially in my evaluation of you...but you get what you earn. I suspect others here feel the same way..and this is largely why TC gets a bad rap around here..due to you.
Posted by me November 21, 2009
"While I've never had any personal dealings with Tom Crean, and I've read here some people who have thought he evloved into an ass - I do think it is time for people to get off the Tom Crean Hate Wagon. Stating the obvious, but the Tom Crean era really turned the image and perception of Marquette Basketball around. The Al MacGuire center became a reality - a much needed facility/tool needed for training and recruiting. Crean brought Buzz Williams on staff, and left behind a great situation for Buzz. Buzz is taking the torch and running with it, and all signs indicate he could take the program to a level not seen since Al. I just wish more MU fans would show some gratitude to Tom Crean. Some posters here come off as bitter, even whiney girl types. Who cares is Tom Crean used a tanning bed or not?? Really people. Stop dissecting the guy and be grateful for what he did for our program. Time to get over it."
And the bigger irony, Ners, is I've said he is an ass and said it many times. I had to work for the guy, something 99.999% of people here never had to do. I saw it upfront and personal. Guess what, I had to work for Bobby Knight, too....not all people are sunshine, gumdrops, unicorns and sweet tea. Nor do I expect them to be. Just as really nice guys can dick over people, too...see Newbill. It comes from all sorts, Ners. Good guys, a-holes, etc. Welcome to reality.
I've said time and time again, I think Buzz is a very nice guy and a good coach. For whatever reason, these words continue to get lost on you and I don't know why.
At the end of the day, I want our head coach to win games, compete, graduate players, stay out of any NCAA investigations or dust-ups, etc. And yes, I would prefer we have a minimum number of JUCO players for many of the reasons I stated back in 2009 and MU84 posted today, it just makes good sense in terms of stability.
I don't start Tom Crean threads, I don't start Tom Crean posts within threads. I will, however, respond when people make ridiculous statements in threads about KO, Crean, Majerus, whomever. I offer no apologies for that. I tip my hat to what TC did at MU, which was rebuild MU to a power program, something we hadn't had in three decades. For hiring Buzz, for getting us into the Big East, for a Final Four, for graduating nearly every player, for not having any NCAA issues, etc. All of those are a tip of the hat.
I am not persecuting Buzz, you just are so wrapped around his johnson that if anyone says ANYTHING about him you get so puckered up you can't help yourself.
Point blank, are people on this board or elsewhere allowed to question Buzz's coaching, recruiting, tactics, etc? YES OR NO?
Of course, any sensible person without an agenda (please exclude Ners, Lenny and 3 or 4 others) absolutely cannot ignore Maymon, McMorrow, Mbao, Clark, Roseboro, Smith, Newbill, etc because they all came at Buzz's direction. 7+ players...no no no, those are Crean's fault, not Buzz. It's almost too precious to read anymore, but these clowns actually believe it.
I'mnot sure McMorrow should be included in this list. His situation appears to me (an admitted outsider) to be very unusual. Is there some reason Buzz would have dumped him without the medical condition?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 02, 2011, 11:35:25 AM
I see...interesting. Can I hold you to that or is there an exemption clause somewhere?
I'm curious since he left 2.5 seasons ago, what we've been doing to fill the void in classes?
You don't have to hold me to anything. No exemptions. What Crean did to MU to make them less competitive on the court ends next year when the last of his empty classes graduates.
Can't make any sense out of your last question.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 02, 2011, 12:35:40 PM
Can't make any sense out of your last question.
Let me assist.
One assumes the current staff has been adding players to the team to fill in the gaps left by the guy who left 2.5 years ago. Correct? Have those guys all panned out? Are they all here? Are they all playing? Do they have zero impact on MU or is everything tied to the former coach that left 1006 days ago?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 02, 2011, 11:44:58 AM
I man up and admit it. Ners doesn't and even lies about what his intentions are. Sorry you don't understand the difference, probably too nuanced for you.
So you concede that you lead the league in starting threads to get your own rocks off and rubbing people's faces in the dirt (i.e., acting like a total douche) - but because you "man up" and admit that you do it more frequently than anyone else it mitigates your douchebaggery? Interesting.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 02, 2011, 01:00:14 PM
So you concede that you lead the league in starting threads to get your own rocks off and rubbing people's faces in the dirt (i.e., acting like a total douche) - but because you "man up" and admit that you do it more frequently than anyone else it mitigates your douchebaggery? Interesting.
I admit that I start some threads like that just as others do here. That's what I admit. I admit that I'm a douchebag sometimes. I also admit that I love exposing other douchebags like yourself that are INCAPABLE of admitting Summer's Eve oozes from every cell in their body.
Now, about the guy that left 1006 days ago, I'm curious why you haven't answered that question?
Quote from: TedBaxter on January 02, 2011, 09:21:39 AM
Al never signed a guy from Saddleback, so not much of a pipeline.
If you mean Saddleback's coach Bill Mulligan sent multiple players to MU, you'd be correct. Jerome Whitehead played for Mulligan at Riverside Community College and Raymonds signed Artie Green out of Mulligan coached Saddleback a few short years later.
Ted...you are correct, sir. Mulligan was the connection. BM ended up at Saddleback but he sent a lot of guys Al's way. We didn't take all of them but Al usually had first dibs. The point being, MU has always had no problem taking Jucos; this did not start with Buzz. Imagine the 77 team without The Aircraft Carrier...no J, no banner.
Quote from: warthog-driver on January 02, 2011, 02:30:20 PM
Ted...you are correct, sir. Mulligan was the connection. BM ended up at Saddleback but he sent a lot of guys Al's way. We didn't take all of them but Al usually had first dibs. The point being, MU has always had no problem taking Jucos; this did not start with Buzz. Imagine the 77 team without The Aircraft Carrier...no J, no banner.
Nor has anyone ever said it started with Buzz. The question was whether we've ever had this many JUCOs on the team at one time and whether that was a good idea long term? Ners implies we should keep on keeping on going after 2 year players from the JUCO ranks.
I disagree and I'm not alone. Others believe we should. When you have as many JUCOs as we have had, it means constant turnover. There's a reason he Buzz went down this path to fix some roster holes, now the question is whether we continue in that direction.
It's apparent by now Buzz goes through whichever avenue he has to to get the players he needs. Given he's got JUCO connections too I don't think he'll abandon that area.
You can chat about how'd you like it but it'll be done his way as long as he's coach.
Personally, I like have top level JUCO's on the team.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 02, 2011, 02:46:41 PM
Nor has anyone ever said it started with Buzz. The question was whether we've ever had this many JUCOs on the team at one time and whether that was a good idea long term? Ners implies we should keep on keeping on going after 2 year players from the JUCO ranks.
I disagree and I'm not alone. Others believe we should. When you have as many JUCOs as we have had, it means constant turnover. There's a reason he Buzz went down this path to fix some roster holes, now the question is whether we continue in that direction.
Was DJO a 2 year JUCO? Jimmy Butler a 2-year JUCO? Did I ever say I wanted us to exclusively go after 2 year JUCOs? Please find where I "implied" I wanted us to go after exclusively 2 year JUCOs. Just because we have JUCO's does not mean "we have constant turnover." Completely false premise. We chose to keep 1 scholarship open for this spring (probably for either a transfer, high school player or JUCO - whoever looks like the best fit for what the team needs after evaluating the team play this whole year.) Actually that is kind of beneficial..as we are able to see the teams weaknesses.
My point in all of this is that I'm all for bringing in the best players, with good character, that give us the best chance at winning. Don't care if they come via JUCO, transfer or straight out of high school.
And let's get real..3 out of the 4 JUCO's were signed to account for the transfers due to Tom Crean moving on (or Buzz's inability or lack of desire to keep Scotty, Trevor, Tyshawn, Nick Williams, etc). Is it really a bad thing to sign a Crowder - a JUCO player of the year? Nope. Plus JUCO's don't have the silver spoon mentality as was posted here, and won't transfer at the first sign of adversity - Reggie Smith, Jerrone Maymon, or any other entitled kid straight out of high school.
Nor did I say it was bad to have Crowder or DJO or Butler...see, this works both ways Ners. I've said, however, long term I don't think we want to keep going in this direction.
DB just got here and he's gone in 2.5 months.
Crowder is playing very well, he'll be gone next year.
Certainly heavy contributors, but it would be nice to get guys that are going to be here for four years, buy into the system for four year. Stability, etc. Even the three year guys are only here for 3 years. There's a reason why the top programs in the country mostly use 4 year players and only go JUCO to supplement the talent. We've gone the direction of having JUCOs dominate the talent level. Yes, we all know why, it's been beaten to death.
The question is whether the long term good of the program is to keep running through guys that have 2 or 3 years of eligibility in the quantities we have. I don't think that's a good idea. Do you?
Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2011, 11:45:11 AM
I probably could have added you to the Chicos and Marquette 84 faction..but generally you seem to not be so blatantly obvious.
Forgive me, but I have no idea what this even means. Is this a list of terrorists or something you compile for Homeland Security?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 02, 2011, 03:42:45 PM
Nor did I say it was bad to have Crowder or DJO or Butler...see, this works both ways Ners. I've said, however, long term I don't think we want to keep going in this direction.
DB just got here and he's gone in 2.5 months.
Crowder is playing very well, he'll be gone next year.
Certainly heavy contributors, but it would be nice to get guys that are going to be here for four years, buy into the system for four year. Stability, etc. Even the three year guys are only here for 3 years. There's a reason why the top programs in the country mostly use 4 year players and only go JUCO to supplement the talent. We've gone the direction of having JUCOs dominate the talent level. Yes, we all know why, it's been beaten to death.
The question is whether the long term good of the program is to keep running through guys that have 2 or 3 years of eligibility in the quantities we have. I don't think that's a good idea. Do you?
Like I said, if the JUCO's we bring in are like the ones we've brought in thus far - good kids first and foremost, and very good basketball players - I don't see it as not being a "good idea??" Some will be here 2 years, others 3..if they contribute positively..I'm all for it. As for stability..it is MUCH more likely that a high school signee TRANSFERS, than does a JUCO.
As for the PM you sent me...it is comical that someone here e-mailed you stating that I never went to Marquette, but am only a fan due to my Texas roots and connection to Buzz. First, I have no connection to Buzz..other than I like the guy, and can recogniz that he clearly has "it." And I've mentioned here before my close ties to the program form 1992-1997. Saw you mentioned your relationship with Mike Rice...I had one too..he asked me to coach at the MU baskteball camp for 2 summers. Played a lot of pick up ball with Mike..and golf as well..and shared a fw beers he served up at Hegarty's over the summers.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 02, 2011, 12:44:00 PM
Let me assist.
One assumes the current staff has been adding players to the team to fill in the gaps left by the guy who left 2.5 years ago. Correct? Have those guys all panned out? Are they all here? Are they all playing? Do they have zero impact on MU or is everything tied to the former coach that left 1006 days ago?
Of course they haven't "all panned out". Is it realistic to expect a program to have 13 great players who are ecstatic with their roles, playing time, etc.? I didn't expect that of TC and don't expect it of Buzz. If you do (or did) I think your expectations are unrealistic.
I will say this. I'd rather lose guys to transfer who have some ability but who are unhappy with their role (Maymon and Smith) than sign guys who can't play (Roseboro, Berkowitz, Blackledge, etc) whether they stick around or not.
I don't expect that, Lenny. All players don't pan out and anyone that believes they would is foolish.
Which leads me back to the original question why you use an excuse that is over 1000 days old now and not call an ace and ace. Was MU left with holes by the previous regime? Hell yes. Has THIS regime missed on some players? Hell yes. Is it beyond stupid 1000+ days later to be blaming any shortcomings this team has on a previous regime when this regime has had more than their share of misses with players? Hell Yes. Yet that's what you do.
Here's how I would rank Buzz's recruits so far:
1. Vander Blue
2. Jimmy Butler
3. DJO
4. Jae Crowder
5. Dwight Buycks
6. Jeronne Maymon
7. Junior Cadougan
8. Chris Otule
9. Jamail Jones
10.Davante Gardner
11.Reggie Smith
12.Joe Fulce (would be much higher if not for inuries)
13.Erik Williams
Bust that have left: Mbao, Roseboro
? who was injured: McMorrow
Next year's guys: J Wilson (bullish), Juan Anderson (bullish), D Wilson (?)
Bottom line: Buzz has had better luck with the jucos, who have been good players and model citizens. If they're a cross section of the type of juco Buzz will bring to MU maybe we need more, not fewer.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 02, 2011, 05:12:28 PM
I don't expect that, Lenny. All players don't pan out and anyone that believes they would is foolish.
Which leads me back to the original question why you use an excuse that is over 1000 days old now and not call an ace and ace. Was MU left with holes by the previous regime? Hell yes. Has THIS regime missed on some players? Hell yes. Is it beyond stupid 1000+ days later to be blaming any shortcomings this team has on a previous regime when this regime has had more than their share of misses with players? Hell Yes. Yet that's what you do.
Yes, there have been the inevitable misses and missteps, but I think we have a pretty good squad considering we have zero seniors and juniors left us by the previous regime. I prefer the team that Buzz has built in 2.5 years with 2 empty classes to the one built in Bloomington under those same cirumstances.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 02, 2011, 06:18:23 PM
Yes, there have been the inevitable misses and missteps, but I think we have a pretty good squad considering we have zero seniors and juniors left us by the previous regime. I prefer the team that Buzz has built in 2.5 years with 2 empty classes to the one built in Bloomington under those same cirumstances.
First,
Buzz Williams was a member of the "previous regime." You seem to conveniently forget that fact.
Second, you can repeat the claim that we have zero seniors and juniors left, but that isn't true. We currently have Chris Otule and Joe Fulce who were
both recruited and signed to LOI's by the previous regime. Don't want to credit Crean for the guys who stayed? Fine. Then don't blame him for the guys that got away.
Third, we saw three would-be seniors transfer for reasons that had nothing to do with the departed members of the "previous regime." One didn't leave for nearly five months (the entire summer session) after Buzz became coach. Another played for Buzz for an
entire season before leaving. But it really doesn't matter why they left or who's fault--because Buzz filled those scholarships!
Fourth, you ignore that we actually had 14 players signed to LOIs or returning for the 2008-09 season. One player HAD to leave. Three players did leave, bringing us to 11. Buzz then
added two more players!!!. Imagine that!!! Those two players brought us back to a
completely full roster of 13 by July 1, 2008.
You want this one both ways.
The scholarships that would have been used by T. Taylor and N. Williams this year were actually filled by Jimmy Butler and Liam McMorrow 2 1/2 years ago. And the scholarships that would have been used by P. Hazel and T. Mbakwe were used by DJO and Buycks. Last I checked, DJO, Buycks and Butler are juniors and seniors currently on the roster.
As soon as Buzz filled those scholarships, they
ceased to be valid excuses for potential future non-performance.
Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2011, 11:58:44 AM
YOU and 84 always cast Buzz in a bad light...
It may be that Joanie/84 is burning with shame at the superior performance of Buzz Williams over her sad excuse of a man. After all, isn't she a Harbaugh?
Quote from: Marquette84 on January 02, 2011, 10:10:28 PM
First, Buzz Williams was a member of the "previous regime." You seem to conveniently forget that fact.
Not that I'm really addressing anything in particular, but when you use that much bold to emphasize points, you actually do the opposite and just make a diatribe that looks overly aggressive and ugly to read, which de-emphasizes your points rather than attaining your objective.
The occasional bold works, but that's just excessive.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 02, 2011, 10:22:28 PM
Not that I'm really addressing anything in particular, but when you use that much bold to emphasize points, you actually do the opposite and just make a diatribe that looks overly aggressive and ugly to read, which de-emphasizes your points rather than attaining your objective.
The occasional bold works, but that's just excessive.
The Harbaughs are not really known for their understatement. Jack Harbaugh cashing even one of Marquette's checks proves that.
Let's not forget Buzz's huge miss in the 2010 class, Josh Gasser. Another big night, 3 fouls and 0 points in a loss. Since Chicos pleasured himself over the kid after game 1 of the season, Gasser is shooting 35% from the field, including 14% from 3FG, making just 4 treys. Averaging almost 5 points per game. I can do without that type of tradition.
Quote from: Jay Bee on January 02, 2011, 10:46:46 PM
Let's not forget Buzz's huge miss in the 2010 class, Josh Gasser. Another big night, 3 fouls and 0 points in a loss. Since Chicos pleasured himself over the kid after game 1 of the season, Gasser is shooting 35% from the field, including 14% from 3FG, making just 4 treys. Averaging almost 5 points per game. I can do without that type of tradition.
How
dare you challenge the Cheek's authority on the greatness of The Gas Passer! You introduce such things as fact, empiricism, and data into something you simply cannot fathom since you were never an insider. How
dare you, sir!
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 02, 2011, 11:02:13 AM
I have to wonder if the TC excuse will be used in years 5, 7 and 9. I sure hope so, it keeps the board running.
Quite the contrary Chicos, it's your 9000+ posts that keep the board running ?-(
Anyhow, since this has devolved in the the usual's having a pissing match...I'm gonna' consider the conversation done and lock the thread. Cheers guys, good to know nothing has changed in 2011.