Afraid the vols are still going to be very good, but definitely rooting against them every time out!
we could use those 8 rebounds tho
Quote from: jhags15 on December 17, 2010, 09:28:40 PM
we could use those 8 rebounds tho
8 boards is a lot from the 2 spot. ::)
I didn't see the game... did they run the offense through him?
Really guys? How about a little class.
Yeah guys that's really classless... You forgot to mention that his crazy father was coaching as well and is 0-1
Quote from: jhags15 on December 17, 2010, 09:28:40 PM
we could use those 8 rebounds tho
6 pts on 3-6 shooting and 8 rebounds (4 offensive). One assist and one turnover. That is a very solid debut.
I always liked Jeronne and continue to wish him nothing but the best of success. None of us get to choose our parents.
+1 on what Sugar said.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on December 18, 2010, 09:07:58 AM
6 pts on 3-6 shooting and 8 rebounds (4 offensive). One assist and one turnover. That is a very solid debut.
I always liked Jeronne and continue to wish him nothing but the best of success. None of us get to choose our parents.
Agreed. he is another big body we could really use. Bummer.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on December 18, 2010, 09:07:58 AM
6 pts on 3-6 shooting and 8 rebounds (4 offensive). One assist and one turnover. That is a very solid debut.
I always liked Jeronne and continue to wish him nothing but the best of success. None of us get to choose our parents.
Agree. Watched the game. JMay was active and involved. Did what he did well at MU well last night. He is a great passer and uses his body well. Is in much better shape and looked a bit quicker and chiseled --not the most athletic player but versatile. Will earn more minutes--but not at a 2 guard. UT is a puzzle on offense but always play great D. UNCC coach's shiny toupee was glistening as he shed tears on the post-game interview.
I'm rooting for Maymon to succeed. Nothing against him and not in our conference.
How can you root for a traitor????
Quote from: msbjim on December 18, 2010, 05:02:29 PM
How can you root for a traitor????
If you truly, deep down wish this kid ill will. Good luck in life.
Happy holidays.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on December 18, 2010, 09:07:58 AM
6 pts on 3-6 shooting and 8 rebounds (4 offensive). One assist and one turnover. That is a very solid debut.
I always liked Jeronne and continue to wish him nothing but the best of success. None of us get to choose our parents.
+100. He's a kid.
Quote from: groove on December 18, 2010, 10:25:54 PM
No he's an adult
Only by age.
That is not an insult considering most of us here are little more than children throwing tempertantrums in anonymity.
There is a gaping hole on this year's team and Maymon would've filled it.
Mistakes are always magnified in the future.
Quote from: msbjim on December 18, 2010, 05:02:29 PM
How can you root for a traitor????
Get some perspective. Kids, or young adults if you wish, transfer schools all the time. It wasn't a good fit and he moved on. I wish him no ill will.
Quote from: msbjim on December 18, 2010, 05:02:29 PM
How can you root for a traitor????
You can't choose your parents, he was probably forced into this by Tim more than anything. Hope the kid does well unless we play against him.
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on December 19, 2010, 01:22:11 PM
There is a gaping hole on this year's team and Maymon would've filled it.
Mistakes are always magnified in the future.
Kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario - right Lanche? Some here have suggested we had NO business recruiting Maymon..that he was trouble all along due to his Dad. Yet, as you suggest..Maymon certainly could have filled a big role and need on this team. So..in your first year as a head coach..do you roll the dice on a consensus Top 75 player, and state player of the year...that comes from a school that turns out good basketball talent?
Not sure I agree with the statement: mistakes are always magnified in the future - as I'm sure you'd agree..you don't let a players Dad dictate to a coaching staff what position he will play, and how he will be utilized, and how the offense should run through him. Actually, I love the leadership of Buzz in this regard..if a mistake is made..he cuts ties..particulariliy in the case where a parent tries to bully the coach..and that parent is acting like a major league jack ass to operational staff.
Quote from: Ners on December 19, 2010, 04:32:27 PM
Kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario - right Lanche? Some here have suggested we had NO business recruiting Maymon..that he was trouble all along due to his Dad. Yet, as you suggest..Maymon certainly could have filled a big role and need on this team. So..in your first year as a head coach..do you roll the dice on a consensus Top 75 player, and state player of the year...that comes from a school that turns out good basketball talent?
Not sure I agree with the statement: mistakes are always magnified in the future - as I'm sure you'd agree..you don't let a players Dad dictate to a coaching staff what position he will play, and how he will be utilized, and how the offense should run through him. Actually, I love the leadership of Buzz in this regard..if a mistake is made..he cuts ties..particulariliy in the case where a parent tries to bully the coach..and that parent is acting like a major league jack ass to operational staff.
Wherever you come down on the Maymon situation, the facts remain that it was a risk to recruit him and the potential fallout would come either prior to entry (ineligibility) or post entry (transfer). That's what I'm thinking about when I write that mistakes are magnified in the future. Of course, these are the chances you take so when it happens to hamstring you it can't be blamed on a player who's not here (Maymon, Newbill, Saunders, et al.) or a coach who's not here (Crean) like it seems so many people want to do.
On the second paragraph, I think its a slippery slope to call it leadership from Buzz when he cuts ties if a mistake is made.
Quote from: reinko on December 18, 2010, 06:09:55 AM
Really guys? How about a little class.
Even "nomorebuycks" thinks this is classless.
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on December 19, 2010, 01:22:11 PM
There is a gaping hole on this year's team and Maymon would've filled it.
Mistakes are always magnified in the future.
no, i'm pretty sure we're solid at shooting guard
Quote from: The Lens on December 18, 2010, 10:22:02 PM
+100. He's a kid.
In my world 18-20 year old men and women are forced to make life and death decisdions every day, often under the most incredible stress. Fact is, they do so successfully and with tremendous courage. I have no time for anyone who references age as being a handicap. There are 100,000 18-20 years right now, facing enemy fire, making admirable choices on an hourly basis. Jeronne Maymon has never, EVER, confronted what so many of our warriors are face with.
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 20, 2010, 02:19:07 PM
In my world 18-20 year old men and women are forced to make life and death decisdions every day, often under the most incredible stress. Fact is, they do so successfully and with tremendous courage. I have no time for anyone who references age as being a handicap. There are 100,000 18-20 years right now, facing enemy fire, making admirable choices on an hourly basis. Jeronne Maymon has never, EVER, confronted what so many of our warriors are face with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error
Since when is D1 basketball a life or death situation?
Get Jeronne away from psycho-papa, and he'd make a good marine. Seen it before.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on December 20, 2010, 02:51:54 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error
Since when is D1 basketball a life or death situation?
Since when is taking responsibility, honoring one's commitment to others, acting with courage in the face of adversity (however slight,) limited to life and death situations? I take issue with those who offer Maymon's age or his overbearing father as exempting him from demonstrating maturity and integrity. If an 18 year old ROMAD can live deep within enemy territory for weeks at a time, sleeping in rocks by day then calling in airstrikes night after night I submit Jeronne Maymon could also demonstrate a bit of courage in his life.
Exactly. There's only one word that comes to mind - QUITTER. Don't wish him any sort of bad luck, or hope that he fails. But, "good riddance and don't let the door hit ya" is very appropriate.
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 20, 2010, 04:28:18 PM
Since when is taking responsibility, honoring one's commitment to others, acting with courage in the face of adversity (however slight,) limited to life and death situations? I take issue with those who offer Maymon's age or his overbearing father as exempting him from demonstrating maturity and integrity. If an 18 year old ROMAD can live deep within enemy territory for weeks at a time, sleeping in rocks by day then calling in airstrikes night after night I submit Jeronne Maymon could also demonstrate a bit of courage in his life.
Your analogy is flawed. In most cases, it is the situation and not the person's attributes that dictate a response. Soldiers handle life or death adversity because that is the situation into which they are thrust. Not just the situation, but all of the areas that surround it (platoons, leadership, culture, etc) help drive the behavior. What responsibility is expected of a D1 basketball player? Their entire lives are scripted for them... what/when they work out, when they study, where they eat.
Your analogy is further flawed because issues like taking responsibility, honoring commitments, or acting with courage in the face of adversity aren't required nor expected of college coaches. If that were the case, Roseboro, Mbao, and Newbill would be on the roster.
You see 18 year-olds living with courage and honor all the time, and wonder why Jeronne cannot fulfill those same expectations. I see two entirely separate environments, where one does not demand responsibility and is routinely filled with unmet commitments. I refuse to equate the two.
Jeronne was not facing fire or enemies. His situation was a choice between his family or Marquette... a Marquette that could have decided to cut ties with him at any point. He chose his family.
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 20, 2010, 04:28:18 PM
Since when is taking responsibility, honoring one's commitment to others, acting with courage in the face of adversity (however slight,) limited to life and death situations? I take issue with those who offer Maymon's age or his overbearing father as exempting him from demonstrating maturity and integrity. If an 18 year old ROMAD can live deep within enemy territory for weeks at a time, sleeping in rocks by day then calling in airstrikes night after night I submit Jeronne Maymon could also demonstrate a bit of courage in his life.
Not all 18 year olds are built the same, especially if you spent 18 years with that type of father. Not easy to just stand up for yourself and break away. Life isn't that simple.
Who is this Maymon guy you speak of? 8-)
Quote from: Henry Sugar on December 20, 2010, 06:10:56 PM
Your analogy is flawed. In most cases, it is the situation and not the person's attributes that dictate a response. Soldiers handle life or death adversity because that is the situation into which they are thrust. Not just the situation, but all of the areas that surround it (platoons, leadership, culture, etc) help drive the behavior. What responsibility is expected of a D1 basketball player? Their entire lives are scripted for them... what/when they work out, when they study, where they eat.
Your analogy is further flawed because issues like taking responsibility, honoring commitments, or acting with courage in the face of adversity aren't required nor expected of college coaches. If that were the case, Roseboro, Mbao, and Newbill would be on the roster.
You see 18 year-olds living with courage and honor all the time, and wonder why Jeronne cannot fulfill those same expectations. I see two entirely separate environments, where one does not demand responsibility and is routinely filled with unmet commitments. I refuse to equate the two.
Jeronne was not facing fire or enemies. His situation was a choice between his family or Marquette... a Marquette that could have decided to cut ties with him at any point. He chose his family.
He made a commitment to his teammates. That is something we understand very well. Jeronne Maymon broke ranks and betrayed his brotherhood. His actions were despicable.
Good to see your back stateside Warthog.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 20, 2010, 06:23:24 PM
Not all 18 year olds are built the same, especially if you spent 18 years with that type of father. Not easy to just stand up for yourself and break away. Life isn't that simple.
Sad but true.
by all accounts I have heard J-May loved it at MU.
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 01:43:59 AM
He made a commitment to his teammates. That is something we understand very well. Jeronne Maymon broke ranks and betrayed his brotherhood. His actions were despicable.
You're getting a little too liberal with the application of military phraseology onto a basketball team. He's a basketball player who, for whatever reason, didn't feel satisfied at MU...so he transferred. Kids transfer schools all the time. He should be where he wants to be.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on December 20, 2010, 06:10:56 PM
Your analogy is flawed. In most cases, it is the situation and not the person's attributes that dictate a response. Soldiers handle life or death adversity because that is the situation into which they are thrust. Not just the situation, but all of the areas that surround it (platoons, leadership, culture, etc) help drive the behavior. What responsibility is expected of a D1 basketball player? Their entire lives are scripted for them... what/when they work out, when they study, where they eat.
Your analogy is further flawed because issues like taking responsibility, honoring commitments, or acting with courage in the face of adversity aren't required nor expected of college coaches. If that were the case, Roseboro, Mbao, and Newbill would be on the roster.
You see 18 year-olds living with courage and honor all the time, and wonder why Jeronne cannot fulfill those same expectations. I see two entirely separate environments, where one does not demand responsibility and is routinely filled with unmet commitments. I refuse to equate the two.
Jeronne was not facing fire or enemies. His situation was a choice between his family or Marquette... a Marquette that could have decided to cut ties with him at any point. He chose his family.
+1. Well stated.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on December 20, 2010, 06:10:56 PM
Your analogy is flawed. In most cases, it is the situation and not the person's attributes that dictate a response. Soldiers handle life or death adversity because that is the situation into which they are thrust. Not just the situation, but all of the areas that surround it (platoons, leadership, culture, etc) help drive the behavior. What responsibility is expected of a D1 basketball player? Their entire lives are scripted for them... what/when they work out, when they study, where they eat.
Your analogy is further flawed because issues like taking responsibility, honoring commitments, or acting with courage in the face of adversity aren't required nor expected of college coaches. If that were the case, Roseboro, Mbao, and Newbill would be on the roster.
You see 18 year-olds living with courage and honor all the time, and wonder why Jeronne cannot fulfill those same expectations. I see two entirely separate environments, where one does not demand responsibility and is routinely filled with unmet commitments. I refuse to equate the two.
What in God's name is situational about taking responsibility, honoring one's word, and acting with moral courage? This is precisely waht is wrong with western society today. I live in a world that has standards and where a man is actually held accountable. Situational ethics is bullshit. Fr Davitt would be ashamed to read the drivel you posted.
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 08:07:50 AM
What in God's name is situational about taking responsibility, honoring one's word, and acting with moral courage? This is precisely waht is wrong with western society today. I live in a world that has standards and where a man is actually held accountable. Situational ethics is bullcrap. Fr Davitt would be ashamed to read the drivel you posted.
Thank you
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 08:07:50 AM
What in God's name is situational about taking responsibility, honoring one's word, and acting with moral courage? This is precisely waht is wrong with western society today. I live in a world that has standards and where a man is actually held accountable. Situational ethics is bullcrap. Fr Davitt would be ashamed to read the drivel you posted.
As Henry pointed out, "honoring one's word" goes both ways. If MU can cut ties with its players (Newbill, Mbao and Roseboro), than Maymon should be given the same level of responsibility. Accountability goes both ways...there was nothing unethical about Maymon's actions IF you believe there was nothing unethical about MU's actions in regards to its players.
And let me also add, that your world's standards are set up for reasons that really aren't comperable to the rest of society. So don't be all high and mighty because of it.
Maybe I missed something. Was Jeronne at Marquette on a basketball scholarship or an ROTC scholarship?
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 21, 2010, 08:22:29 AM
As Henry pointed out, "honoring one's word" goes both ways. If MU can cut ties with its players (Newbill, Mbao and Roseboro), than Maymon should be given the same level of responsibility. Accountability goes both ways...there was nothing unethical about Maymon's actions IF you believe there was nothing unethical about MU's actions in regards to its players.
And let me also add, that your world's standards are set up for reasons that really aren't comperable to the rest of society. So don't be all high and mighty because of it.
Taking responsibility, honoring one's word, and acting with moral courage don't apply to "the rest of society??" Good Lord but that is pathetic. There are a few Jesuits who visit this site. I believe they have some perspective on the need for integrity in thought and action. I have never heard that Character must be limited to certain segments of society.
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 08:35:57 AM
Taking responsibility, honoring one's word, and acting with moral courage don't apply to "the rest of society??" Good Lord but that is pathetic.
Again, honoring one's word goes both ways. You have yet to address MU's actions regarding its players. If you do believe that their actions were honorable, I don't see how you cannot feel the same about Maymon's.
warthog - Have you ever left a job to take a different job at a company that you felt was better for you and your long-term career goals?
At 18 I'm glad that Maymon followed his heart and listened to his father.
I'm disappointed that those decisions led him away from MU and it sucks that his father is nuts... but school is just for 4 years and family is for forever. How are you going to tell a kid that his dad is leading him astray? At least his father is taking an interest in his life. Better than a lot of dad's out there.
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 08:35:57 AM
Taking responsibility, honoring one's word, and acting with moral courage don't apply to "the rest of society??" Good Lord but that is pathetic. There are a few Jesuits who visit this site. I believe they have some perspective on the need for integrity in thought and action. I have never heard that Character must be limited to certain segments of society.
So rather than harp on the mistake, and the absence of judgement by JM, the better use of our time is how MU works to ensure these types of things do not happen again. I believe in the notion, "it's not the stimulus, it's the response." How does MU respond to these situations. What, if anything, will Buzz, the AD, whoever do, to current and future players to make them feel like they do not have to transfer, and they feel a part of something larger than themselves. What will Jeronne do? Will he make better decisions, grow from this. Everyone makes mistakes, but too often in life we focus on them, and not how we respond to the adversity.
Thank you for your service, and all the sacrifices you and your family has made to this great country.
We are Marquette.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 21, 2010, 08:45:56 AM
warthog - Have you ever left a job to take a different job at a company that you felt was better for you and your long-term career goals?
Yes. After serving 6 years as an F-16 pilot, including combat service for Operation Desert Storm, I resigned my commission. I was accepted into an Ivy League Business School where I received my MBA in Strategic Planning and Competitiveness. I worked in Strat Planning for PepsiCo then Corporate Development for GE Capital. I took a line role with GE Capital, ultimately becoming the COO for a major business in Tokyo (I speak Japanese.) When 9/11 happened I told my wife I needed to get into the fight, a decision she supported whole heartedly. I went to GE and told them I was resigning in order to return to military service. Though they offered a leave of absence I felt it was best to free up the spot for others. I have been flying A-10's ever since, including 6 combat deployments to both Iraq and Afghanistan. The wife told me she would not endure another deployment and therefore ordered me to stand down, which I have now done. She is now with the Gates Foundation after many years at Microsoft so I am comfortable being a kept man for the time being.
Every time I made a transition it was with dignity and I was meticulous about ensuring every aspect of my leaving was done with precision. I never left any employer or colleague in the lurch. I have no problem with anyone making a change. Character dictates we handle such transitions with scrupulous care for the people and organization you are leaving. Did Maymon think of anyone but himself when he bolted as he did? Did Tom Crean demonstrate any consideration when he left Marquette? I am confident I can meet any former colleague or employer and receive a gracious reception. I would not allow it to be otherwise.
served his country well
integrity, principles
Screen porch the reward
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 01:43:59 AM
He made a commitment to his teammates. That is something we understand very well. Jeronne Maymon broke ranks and betrayed his brotherhood. His actions were despicable.
So, any player that transfers is despicable? Or are there valid reasons?
What makes Maymon any different than any other transfer? And, of course, you are totally aware of all the details that went on in the move, correct? Otherwise, such sweeping statements would be.....despicable.
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 09:17:19 AM
Every time I made a transition it was with dignity and I was meticulous about ensuring every aspect of my leaving was done with precision. I never left any employer or colleague in the lurch. I have no problem with anyone making a change. Character dictates we handle such transitions with scrupulous care for the people and organization you are leaving. Did Maymon think of anyone but himself when he bolted as he did? Did Tom Crean demonstrate any consideration when he left Marquette? I am confident I can meet any former colleague or employer and receive a gracious reception. I would not allow it to be otherwise.
First of all, I can't put into words how thankful I am for people like you who risk their lives to protect our freedom. Thank you.
That being said, Jeronne Maymon did not sign up for the military. He received a college scholarship to play basketball. In my mind, those two things are not comparable. The decisions that he made in his daily life and his decision to transfer did not put anyone's life at risk, nor was his life at risk when he made those decisions. Yes, he could have handled his departure in a better way but, from what I understand, it wasn't necessarily his decision to leave. That is one aspect of this situation that you appear to be overlooking. Maymon's overbearing father basically told him it was time to go and he went. If you want to question the motives and behaviors of the elder Maymon I doubt you'd get much pushback, but I don't think it's fair to blame a 19-year-old KID who took his father's advice.
I guess I question whether you think that all players who transfer are selfish people who are betraying brotherhood or if your big problem is with
the way that Jeronne left. For example, do you think that Dwyane Wade's decision to leave school early for the NBA was breaking ranks because he did not honor his 4-year commitment to play at MU?
Quote from: pbiflyer on December 21, 2010, 09:58:07 AM
So, any player that transfers is despicable? Or are there valid reasons?
What makes Maymon any different than any other transfer? And, of course, you are totally aware of all the details that went on in the move, correct? Otherwise, such sweeping statements would be.....despicable.
I don't pretend to speak for Warthog, but leaving in the middle of the season is analagous to desertion while under fire. A transfer before or after the season is much different as it gives both the player and his former team (unit) a chance to adjust and prepare.
Quote from: pbiflyer on December 21, 2010, 09:58:07 AM
So, any player that transfers is despicable? Or are there valid reasons?
What makes Maymon any different than any other transfer? And, of course, you are totally aware of all the details that went on in the move, correct? Otherwise, such sweeping statements would be.....despicable.
I have no problem with people making transitions. I have made a couple in my life. My point about Maymon is that he left in the middle of a season.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 21, 2010, 08:22:29 AM
And let me also add, that your world's standards are set up for reasons that really aren't comperable to the rest of society. So don't be all high and mighty because of it.
Good for Warthog's world. Too bad for yours. The notion that you have earned the right to call him names may work in your world. Not mine.
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 10:41:56 AM
I have no problem with people making transitions. I have made a couple in my life. My point about Maymon is that he left in the middle of a season.
I hear where you are coming from, and believe me, if the rest of society operated under the same principles as the military and you personally, the world would be a far different and much better place.
The posters saying that JM is only a basketball player and therefore the same standards for personal conduct and integrity don't apply are way off base and a sad reflection on us all. The same standards should absolutely apply to every single one of us.
What may be different in this situation is that, if it went down as purported on this board, it wasn't JM's decision to leave. Rather, he was forced to leave due to the actions of his father. If that is truly the case, then one can only feel bad for JM, and hope that he has learned from the situation and uses it for his personal gain.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 21, 2010, 10:02:17 AM
I guess I question whether you think that all players who transfer are selfish people who are betraying brotherhood or if your big problem is with the way that Jeronne left. For example, do you think that Dwyane Wade's decision to leave school early for the NBA was breaking ranks because he did not honor his 4-year commitment to play at MU?
Mustache, My issue with Maymon is that he bolted in the middle of a season. Do you remember how terrible you felt for the team wehen you heard that news? Was the news not shocking? Did you not grasp for understanding? Ona visceral level you knew his action was wrong.
Had he finished out the season and transferred I would have respected his decision. Unfortunately, he turned his back on team and brothers in a shocking, crass, and vulgar manner. His behavior is beneath contempt.
As for his age or father's influence being a factor? I have cited the brave 18-24 year old men and women who serve their nation with honor. I do know on a personal basis many of these great Americans are from disadvantaged backgrounds. I do know some had only a single parent. I do know some had no parent. I do know most are from the "other side of the tracks." There was no opportunity to attend college; it was never a consideration. And yet they have the maturity, discipline, and character to make the right decisions routinely. Do I respect them? Let me put it this way: I place my life in their very capable hands.
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 08:35:57 AM
Taking responsibility, honoring one's word, and acting with moral courage don't apply to "the rest of society??" Good Lord but that is pathetic. There are a few Jesuits who visit this site. I believe they have some perspective on the need for integrity in thought and action. I have never heard that Character must be limited to certain segments of society.
Where is your outrage at Buzz? He has not honored his commitment or taken responsibility for Hazel, Mbao, Roseboro, and Newbill. He has failed to honor his commitment multiple times in this manner. Even more egregiously, Buzz has done this as the leader of Marquette's program. We should expect more of the leader vs a simple member of the team.
By your own standards, why is Buzz not despicable?
Or is your contempt only reserved for the student with the crazy dad? The same crazy dad that provides Jeronne with the greatest level of commitment, loyalty, and love.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on December 21, 2010, 10:50:43 AM
The posters saying that JM is only a basketball player and therefore the same standards for personal conduct and integrity don't apply are way off base and a sad reflection on us all. The same standards should absolutely apply to every single one of us.
You have missed the point. My point is that warthog's constant analogies to the military are misguided. College basketball is not the military.
But yes, integrity should also apply to college coaches. Too bad that's not the real world.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on December 21, 2010, 10:50:43 AM
What may be different in this situation is that, if it went down as purported on this board, it wasn't JM's decision to leave. Rather, he was forced to leave due to the actions of his father. If that is truly the case, then one can only feel bad for JM, and hope that he has learned from the situation and uses it for his personal gain.
This is my point entirely. Jeronne was forced to choose between Marquette and his family.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on December 21, 2010, 11:13:36 AM
Where is your outrage at Buzz? He has not honored his commitment or taken responsibility for Hazel, Mbao, Roseboro, and Newbill. He has failed to honor his commitment multiple times in this manner. Even more egregiously, Buzz has done this as the leader of Marquette's program. We should expect more of the leader vs a simple member of the team.
By your own standards, why is Buzz not despicable?
Or is your contempt only reserved for the student with the crazy dad? The same crazy dad that provides Jeronne with the greatest level of commitment, loyalty, and love.
Or perhaps when Buzz left UNO.
Just sayin'.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on December 21, 2010, 11:13:36 AM
Where is your outrage at Buzz?
Or how about my outrage at world hunger? Did you ever take any rhetoric or logic classes while at Marquette? The subject is Maymon.
Your obtuseness is only exceeded by your dislike for Buzz Williams.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on December 21, 2010, 11:13:36 AM
Where is your outrage at Buzz? He has not honored his commitment or taken responsibility for Hazel, Mbao, Roseboro, and Newbill. He has failed to honor his commitment multiple times in this manner. Even more egregiously, Buzz has done this as the leader of Marquette's program. We should expect more of the leader vs a simple member of the team.
The reality is, all parties have commitments, and in all these cases, both parties agreed to move on when there were disagreements over those commitments. All involved a written release of those commitments signed by both parties--a commitment that lasts only one year when there are good terms. Some were bitter from the outside looking in, but in all cases, commitments were waived when both signed the release--for better or worse. Kids and programs change their minds--same as everyday students who transfer. It is their futures, why don't we move on? Basketball is a game (not life and death) and a means to an ends. In all cases, these kids are now in a program that is a better fit. All good then as they moved on. MU released Maymon of his commitment--he did not go AWOL.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 21, 2010, 10:50:03 AM
Good for Warthog's world. Too bad for yours. The notion that you have earned the right to call him names may work in your world. Not mine.
I didn't call him names. I said he was acting "high and mighty." Which he was. And still is.
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 11:25:29 AM
Or how about my outrage at world hunger? Did you ever take any rhetoric or logic classes while at Marquette? The subject is Maymon.
Your obtuseness is only exceeded by your dislike for Buzz Williams.
I expect you to have enough integrity and honor to have a vigorous discussion without resorting to insults or misrepresentations. For the record, my opinions of Buzz are generally favorable and publicly available on Cracked Sidewalks.
You are applying one standard to a kid with a crazy dad and not applying that standard to the leader of Marquette's program. Why does your blanket outrage at Maymon not extend to Buzz?
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 11:11:27 AM
As for his age or father's influence being a factor? I have cited the brave 18-24 year old men and women who serve their nation with honor. I do know on a personal basis many of these great Americans are from disadvantaged backgrounds. I do know some had only a single parent. I do know some had no parent. I do know most are from the "other side of the tracks." There was no opportunity to attend college; it was never a consideration. And yet they have the maturity, discipline, and character to make the right decisions routinely. Do I respect them? Let me put it this way: I place my life in their very capable hands.
I really see no connection between this Walter-Sobchak-like rant and the fact that Jeronne has an overbearing father who has seemingly called the shots for his son's entire life.
No one is questioning how much you respect soldiers. Often kids who enlist in the military do so because they need guidance and structure. Jeronne was given guidance and structure by his father...whose strengths, unlike the military do not appear to be guidance and structure. That can make things very difficult for a child/young adult. Much like soldiers do as they're told by their superiors. Jeronne did as he was told to do by his superior (in this case, his father).
Personally, I don't find Jeronne to be a diplorable character. I think he's a college sophomore who always takes his father's advice because he knows nothing different. In all honesty, I feel sorry for him and I hope he can distance himself from those people in his life who appear to be using him for their own personal gain.
EDIT: Removed part of the post that I realized was not completely applicable due to warthog's statement that leaving in the middle of the season was his main issue with Jeronne.
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 11:25:29 AM
Or how about my outrage at world hunger? Did you ever take any rhetoric or logic classes while at Marquette? The subject is Maymon.
Your obtuseness is only exceeded by your dislike for Buzz Williams.
I don't believe Sugar has ever expressed a dislike for Buzz Williams. His point is that college basketball is a world where disloyalty is not only not frowned upon, it is celebrated when a coach does it to upgrade the team. Yet somehow we are coming down on Maymon for "quitting," when it was clearly not his complete decision to do so.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 21, 2010, 11:37:30 AM
I didn't call him names. I said he was acting "high and mighty." Which he was. And still is.
As a Colonel I am expected to lead by example. We have a code by which we live. I hold myself accountable and so do my men. It is not about fame, fortune, or glory. It is about doing the right thing at all times. That is not high and mighty. It is being decent. It is about honor.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 21, 2010, 11:43:21 AM
Yet somehow we are coming down on Maymon for "quitting," when it was clearly not his complete decision to do so.
But it was his decision. Jeronne Maymon made the decision to leave his team in the middle of a season. Tim Maymon was an influence but at the end of the day it was Jeronne's decision. And it was a decision sorely lacking in honor.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 21, 2010, 11:35:58 AM
The reality is, all parties have commitments, and in all these cases, both parties agreed to move on when there were disagreements over those commitments. All involved a written release of those commitments signed by both parties--a commitment that lasts only one year when there are good terms. Some were bitter from the outside looking in, but in all cases, commitments were waived when both signed the release--for better or worse. Kids and programs change their minds--same as everyday students who transfer. It is their futures, why don't we move on? Basketball is a game (not life and death) and a means to an ends. In all cases, these kids are now in a program that is a better fit. All good then as they moved on. MU released Maymon of his commitment--he did not go AWOL.
I know that. I'm 100% fine with commitments being broken in college basketball. It happens all the time by coaches as well as players. Coaches leave. Players are "encouraged" to find a better fit. Sometimes players decide to transfer on their own. It's a part of the Game.
Maymon has been vilified by many parties because he was in a bad position and trusted his father. Warthog says similarly aged men and women act with more courage all the time in the military. I respond that college basketball is not the military.
Warthog says integrity and commitments are not exclusive to the military. I agree, and point out areas where Buzz has not honored commitments. I then want to know why the same outrage is not applied to Buzz using this standard.
Hey, maybe I do understand logic.
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 11:47:06 AM
But it was his decision. Jeronne Maymon made the decision to leave his team in the middle of a season. Tim Maymon was an influence but at the end of the day it was Jeronne's decision. And it was a decision sorely lacking in honor.
If some of what is rumored about Jeronne's departure is true, it really was not his decision.
Whatever the case, I'm ready to chalk this one up as an "agree to disagree" situation.
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 11:47:06 AM
But it was his decision. Jeronne Maymon made the decision to leave his team in the middle of a season. Tim Maymon was an influence but at the end of the day it was Jeronne's decision. And it was a decision sorely lacking in honor.
But we don't know that, and probably never will.
Equally as plausible. Timmy blows up at the coaching staff time and time again. Buzz, TMay, and JMay agree that MU is not a good fit. Buzz gives JMay his release, JMay goes to TN.
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 11:25:29 AM
Did you ever take any rhetoric or logic classes while at Marquette? The subject is Maymon.
Your obtuseness is only exceeded by your dislike for Buzz Williams.
If the subject of discussion is solely Maymon, how did we ever start talking about the admirable young soldiers in whom you have rightly placed your trust? Could it be that you brought them into the discussion to make a point about honor, commitment and integrity? If you can bring these soldiers into a discussion where "the subject is Maymon" , I don't see why Sultan can't use Buzz to also make a point about honor, commitment and integrity. Just because you don't want to answer the question doesn't mean that Sultan is being obtuse.
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 11:43:41 AM
As a Colonel I am expected to lead by example. We have a code by which we live. I hold myself accountable and so do my men. It is not about fame, fortune, or glory. It is about doing the right thing at all times. That is not high and mighty.
When you believe that you live by standards ethically superior to others, and publically state as such, you are acting high and mighty. Almost by the very definition of the phrase.
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 11:43:41 AM
As a Colonel I am expected to lead by example. We have a code by which we live. I hold myself accountable and so do my men. It is not about fame, fortune, or glory. It is about doing the right thing at all times. That is not high and mighty. It is being decent. It is about honor.
I think this post illustrates what is at the heart of Sultan's point (although I can't speak for him). You obviously have contempt for Maymon's actions (and I'm not saying that you shouldn't), and in connection with stating your contempt you say that he cannot be excused because of his age because others his age are acting honorably and with integrity and are honoring their commitments in service of our County. And you bring in your own experiences as an Officer in the military to further make a point about honor, integrity, leadership and accountability. All of that makes sense and I think make an effective argument that Maymon doesn't deserve a "pass" because he's only 18 or so.
Yet you refuse to engage when someone raises the question: "is our coach being held to the same standard to which we want to hold our players?" It's a reasonable question, and in the grand scheme of things, this board is the most logical place place for many of us to discuss it.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 21, 2010, 11:37:30 AM
I didn't call him names. I said he was acting "high and mighty." Which he was. And still is.
Wrong. You said "dont BE all high and mighty" not "don't ACT all high and mighty". I know you like to get Clintonesque when qualifying just how personal your insults are, but I think most of us know what the definition of is (or be) is.
So, in summary, you did call him names and you're still acting like an a-hole.
Fine Lennys...I called him a name. I'm sure he can handle it.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on December 21, 2010, 12:14:24 PM
Yet you refuse to engage when someone raises the question: "is our coach being held to the same standard to which we want to hold our players?" It's a reasonable question, and in the grand scheme of things, this board is the most logical place place for many of us to discuss it.
When I give my word to someone it is my bond. As a Squadron and Group Commander my men needed to know they could stake their lives on my word. It is imperative for good order, discipline, and mission effectiveness. If Buzz Williams made a commitment to a player, manager, student, or any other member of the Marquette community he is compelled morally to honor that commitment. I have no insight into what commitments he made to the players in question - and neither do you.
Not sure how "honorable" it is to beat up on an 18-19 year old man-kid when nobody here knows him personally....knows his true motives, influences or intentions....knows exactly what went down that led to his transfer....know how much was attributable to JMay, his dad, the coaching staff, the program or messages from God Almighty blurting through his head. Labelling him a quitter, traitor...whatever without knowing if he truly wanted to stay and how the pragmatics of the situation played out is pure speculation.
Frankly, I hope he slays it at Tennessee. One, I generally root for people to succeed...especially with difficult nuances surrounding their situation. Two, it shows MU is recruiting well from a pure basketball skills level. Three, I just remain interested...even if perversely to play the "what if they had stayed game." That is why I hope Christopherson keeps lighting up the scoreboard for ISU. I also follow Mbakwe and take an interest in what he is doing.
Whatever...the dude committed to MU for a reason and left for a reason. I'm not privy to either but am not going to root against him just because he chose to transfer. I agree leaving your teammates in a lurch during the season is waaaaaayyyyy bad form...but I don't know how that came about and I doubt anyone ever will.
OK...but you do realize that the full truth of the Maymon story has never come out as well. Yet you are perfectly willing to throw him under your ethical bus...
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 21, 2010, 12:11:50 PM
When you believe that you live by standards ethically superior to others, and publically state as such, you are acting high and mighty. Almost by the very definition of the phrase.
So if someone who believes and has the balls to publically state without equivocation that Western standards (a woman is a person, not someone's property, say) are ethically superior to those of a society that stones women whose husbands merely accuse them of misconduct - is acting high and mighty - sign me up.
The high and mighty talk the talk. We have more than our share of those around here. I'd say Warthog has a pretty impressive record of walking the walk.
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 12:22:49 PM
When I give my word to someone it is my bond. As a Squadron and Group Commander my men needed to know they could stake their lives on my word. It is imperative for good order, discipline, and mission effectiveness. If Buzz Williams made a commitment to a player, manager, student, or any other member of the Marquette community he is compelled morally to honor that commitment. I have no insight into what commitments he made to the players in question - and neither do you.
I don't disagree. None of us knows for certain whether Buzz made commitments to the players in question. But, we can discuss it here on the message board and there is no reason that you should be running around policing this message board saying that "the subject is Maymon" and saying that others are being obtuse for bringing up other things. If your response to Sultan's original post had been, "I don't know whether Buzz made a commitment to the players in question" that would have seemed like an honest and fair minded approach. Your actual response, dare I say it, sounded a little high and mighty. But of course you're free to answer as you see fit -- just like Sultan is free to raise any issue he sees fit.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 21, 2010, 12:39:21 PM
So if someone who believes and has the balls to publically state without equivocation that Western standards (a woman is a person, not someone's property, say) are ethically superior to those of a society that stones women whose husbands merely accuse them of misconduct - is acting high and mighty - sign me up.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_yhbOEDI3vqc/SoWL1rgbsYI/AAAAAAAAAMI/-AdukoegKSk/s400/Strawman+(light).jpg)
Quote from: reinko on December 21, 2010, 12:46:23 PM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_yhbOEDI3vqc/SoWL1rgbsYI/AAAAAAAAAMI/-AdukoegKSk/s400/Strawman+(light).jpg)
You're right that my argument doesn't address yours. It's not supposed to. It addresses Sultan's statement, which is in the blue box above it.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 21, 2010, 12:56:42 PM
You're right that my argument doesn't address yours. It's not supposed to. It addresses Sultan's statement, which is in the blue box above it.
Whatever. Go have fun playing semantic police arguing the difference between the word "Be" and "Act".
Peace.
If he hadn't fit and had left after the season... fine. We move on. However, to quit mid season and leave his team hanging was pretty bad. Not to mention some of the quotes coming out; like his dad saying he wishes we never win another game, and saying the offense needs to run through maymon... give me a break.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 21, 2010, 12:16:25 PM
Wrong. You said "dont BE all high and mighty" not "don't ACT all high and mighty". I know you like to get Clintonesque when qualifying just how personal your insults are, but I think most of us know what the definition of is (or be) is.
So, in summary, you did call him names and you're still acting like an a-hole.
This might be a new low in MUScoop history for picking a fight simply to pick a fight.
Quote from: Josey Wales on December 21, 2010, 01:35:56 PM
If he hadn't fit and had left after the season... fine. We move on. However, to quit mid season and leave his team hanging was pretty bad. Not to mention some of the quotes coming out; like his dad saying he wishes we never win another game, and saying the offense needs to run through maymon... give me a break.
the most important phrase in that post.
Ya know, the problem never was Jeronne Maymon (whom may be a wonderful young man for all we know), it was his father- Tim. Unless someone here has some factual, inside info to share why bother?
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 11:47:06 AM
But it was his decision. Jeronne Maymon made the decision to leave his team in the middle of a season. Tim Maymon was an influence but at the end of the day it was Jeronne's decision. And it was a decision sorely lacking in honor.
Has it been proven to everyone's satisfaction that JM left MU because of his father's undue influence or was JM told he had to leave MU because of his father's meddling? If the former, the onus is on JM's 18 year old shoulders. If the latter, the burden rests with BW bailing out on his commitment (yet again).
Look, his old man cost him a watch and an IPad. Isn't that enough punishment?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 21, 2010, 12:39:21 PM
So if someone who believes and has the balls to publically state without equivocation that Western standards (a woman is a person, not someone's property, say) are ethically superior to those of a society that stones women whose husbands merely accuse them of misconduct - is acting high and mighty - sign me up.
Oh goodness...really? If you are going to come back with this crap, why even bother?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 21, 2010, 12:39:21 PM
So if someone who believes and has the balls to publically state without equivocation that Western standards (a woman is a person, not someone's property, say) are ethically superior to those of a society that stones women whose husbands merely accuse them of misconduct - is acting high and mighty - sign me up.
The high and mighty talk the talk. We have more than our share of those around here. I'd say Warthog has a pretty impressive record of walking the walk.
Are you related to warthog?
It's the only reason I can think of why you seem to be his donkey on this matter.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 21, 2010, 01:38:59 PM
This might be a new low in MUScoop history for picking a fight simply to pick a fight.
Why are you referring to Chico?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 21, 2010, 01:38:59 PM
This might be a new low in MUScoop history for picking a fight simply to pick a fight.
Sultan and others have recently pointed out the major differences between calling a person stupid and calling a person's opinions stupid. I knew the difference, of course, but as that "stupid" person was offended nonetheless. Maybe pointing out his own imprecision is as childish as he was. Sorry.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 21, 2010, 03:03:45 PM
Oh goodness...really? If you are going to come back with this crap, why even bother?
As usual, no substance, all insult. High and mighty as it gets.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 21, 2010, 04:18:32 PM
As usual, no substance, all insult. High and mighty as it gets.
No seriously. It's like you're trying to pick a fight.
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on December 21, 2010, 03:35:31 PM
Are you related to warthog?
It's the only reason I can think of why you seem to be his donkey on this matter.
So when you carry Chico's water is it because you're his little brother?
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 04:07:14 PM
Why are you referring to Chico?
Funny.
By the way, as stated before, thank you for your service.
I do believe, however, that you have not answered a very fair question that Henry, Sultan and others put out there. None of those guys hate Buzz, nor do I (yet I'm accused of it). The question was why is bad that this 18 year old kid, barely an adult who changed his mind (or had it changed for him by his father) an action that you find deplorable (as does Lenny), but when the coach of the team doesn't honor commitments it doesn't register?
This seems to be a classic double standard. Perhaps I'm not understanding your answers clearly, but would love to hear your answer on why there appears (again, could be my misinterpretation) to be one standard of commitment you levy on the young Maymon but quite another on Buzz (who is double his age, more mature, etc)?
Thanks
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 21, 2010, 12:31:58 PM
OK...but you do realize that the full truth of the Maymon story has never come out as well. Yet you are perfectly willing to throw him under your ethical bus...
How the hell do you know what the "full truth" is? What we know is that Williams reported Maymon left the team:
Marquette men's basketball coach Buzz Williams said he didn't know until Monday afternoon that Jeronne Maymon was unhappy with his role on the team.
By Monday evening, Williams had announced in a news release that the former Madison Memorial star and two-time Associated Press state Player of the Year had left the program. Williams told reporters in Milwaukee on Thursday that Maymon and his family met with Marquette administration Monday at 1 p.m. That meeting was immediately followed by one involving the Maymon family and Williams. "They said that he was unhappy with his role and with our offense and how he was playing," Williams said. "He's a really good kid and we were happy to have him, and I mean that in a genuine way. I think that he was growing. I think that he was getting better, but they didn't feel like the progress relative to the pace was working out to their satisfaction."
Seems to me that Maymon quit on his team at the beginning of the season.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 21, 2010, 04:26:14 PMBy the way, as stated before, thank you for your service. I do believe, however, that you have not answered a very fair question that Henry, Sultan and others put out there. None of those guys hate Buzz, nor do I (yet I'm accused of it). The question was why is bad that this 18 year old kid, barely an adult who changed his mind (or had it changed for him by his father) an action that you find deplorable (as does Lenny), but when the coach of the team doesn't honor commitments it doesn't register? This seems to be a classic double standard. Perhaps I'm not understanding your answers clearly, but would love to hear your answer on why there appears (again, could be my misinterpretation) to be one standard of commitment you levy on the young Maymon but quite another on Buzz (who is double his age, more mature, etc)? Thanks
The press reported Maymon quit. We have no idea what Williams promised or said to the recruits. I deal in empiricism, Chico. Whether as a senior executive at a major Multi-National or as a squadron commander planning air strikes in Tora Bora. To act otherwise is fool hardy.
Here are some young men who don't know the meaning of quit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlvedYbmvTM
TACP ROMAD
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 04:39:49 PM
The press reported Maymon quit. We have no idea what Williams promised or said to the recruits. I deal in empiricism, Chico. Whether as a senior executive at a major Multi-National or as a squadron commander planning air strikes in Tora Bora. To act otherwise is fool hardy.
You still haven't answered the question about commitment from the other side, Buzz's side. Let's say the press reports are right, and Maymon quit. He fudged on his commitment. We'll assume all that is correct for this discussion.
You haven't yet answered the part of commitment that the coach has. I know those other guys asked and I'm curious as well as to why him not honoring commitments isn't viewed differently? It seems you're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and using the "we have no idea what he said to recruits" as the way out, not even willing to listen to what those recruits stated was said (as if their opinions or versions don't matter). But with Maymon, also not knowing the "whole truth" you're taking a press report as the Gospel version of events.
How does that square? I ask this politely, not in any sarcastic tone or condescending manner...I'm being straight up with you.
Thanks
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 04:48:33 PM
Here are some young men who don't know the meaning of quit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlvedYbmvTM
TACP ROMAD
Tip of my hat to all of them, as well as the young women out there....I have one niece on the USS Reagan right now. A cousin in the Rangers that has served two tours, and another in the Marines. God bless them all.
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 11:25:29 AM
Or how about my outrage at world hunger? Did you ever take any rhetoric or logic classes while at Marquette? The subject is Maymon.
And the subject is basketball, not the military and war, yet you constantly equate the two. They are not. Evidently, you didn't score that high of a grade in logic.
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 21, 2010, 04:39:49 PM
The press reported Maymon quit. We have no idea what Williams promised or said to the recruits.
We have several other posters who suggest that Maymon did not quit.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on December 21, 2009, 05:39:28 PM
It went something like this:
Got this from a really connected guy (Aurianthal was is AAU coach, FYI)
So Tim Maymon shows up at the Kohl Center on Saturday night and goes over to the Marquette will call desk to get his tickets. The woman at the desk (who works for the Marquette ticket office) hands him his four tickets. Tim says there must be a mistake because he said he need a total of 20 tickets and demands his 16 other tickets. The woman tells him that even if she had 20 extra tickets, which she doesn't, she couldn't give him 20 tickets because NCAA Regulations only allow for 4 tickets per player.
Tim says: "Listen here, you ____ ____ (worst you can say to a woman). I don't give a sh!! about NCAA regulations. Just give me my f-ing tickets."
The woman is basically in tears, so one of the other people at the table calms everyone down, says he'll see what he can do, and ushers Tim and family off into the game (with him bitching all the way).
We all saw or heard about Tim's antics during the game. Evidently, he was talked to by an assistant coach at some point and told very politely that he needed to tone it down. He didn't like hearing that and basically ignored it. Obviously, Marquette officials behind the bench were not pleased.
On to Sunday morning... Marquette had a practice at the Al McGuire center. As it's beginning, the doors fly open and Tim Maymon and Hennessey Auriantal come walking in. Tim is swearing up a storm again about his son playing the wrong position, not getting the ball, etc. Buzz calms him down and ushers him out and tells him that they'll talk after practice. The two go off to either the AD or assistant AD's office (who has already been briefed on the antics of Saturday night) and tear that guy a new a-hole for an hour. Finally, the AD has enough and walks the 2 back to practice. He pulls Buzz over in front of the team and says "Buzz, this has gone on long enough. If it's OK with you, I'm throwing these guys out of the building and I don't want to see them ever again." Buzz says fine and they tell Tim and Hennessey if they don't leave immediately, campus police will be called and they'll be arrested for trespassing. Buzz tells Jeronne to shower-up and head home... he's off the team.
On Sunday night into Monday, Jeronne calls everyone from Buzz, to the assistants, to his teammates and is basically in tears, saying that he doesn't want to leave the team. Buzz stands firm and basically spends the day Monday meeting with Marquette legal council and sports info to make sure that everything is in order. They put out the press release Monday night.
Gotta hold Buzz accountable for appeasing the Maymons for as long as he has...sucking minutes out of players who play a foot higher than J-May just to either A) get the delusional dad to settle down, or B) prove his first big signee was indeed, actually a stud, or C) prove he wasn't naive to believe things would change. Strikes 1, 2, and 3. Lesson learned.
I guess all the "J-May is too unselfish for his own good" talk from Buzz meant Jeronne was not standing up to his dad.? Who knows on that count... But, 9 games and out crushes any either notion: the unselfish thing or standing up to pappy.
Anyway...Fulce comes out and plays well aganst NF (and, granted it's but one game) and it's like Buzz has to justify why he had buried this springy, team-first cat who has been, let's face it...easier to screw to this point. So Buzz backpedals by insulting the kid (who he, of course, loves). "Joe don't know the difference between and zone or man to man," as well as the 'ain't I quotable' thing about Joe's shot selection; the colorful "ten toes to the rim" bit. (Is Stockhole syndrome the goal here, or what?)
Yes, there's context, of course but....
I do agree, however, that J-May would have been valuable over the next few years if he could've accepted his 19 to 23 minutes, albeit having to do some of the same things that made him quit in the first place. (Talking about the real reasons.) As it is... the team will be way better off not having to deal with the collateral Make Room for Daddy crap.
That said, Buzz's comments to the press have been well crafted and repackaged from the high road, you know, up where Fulce lives...and I'm sure he's looking out for J-May here, but it makes me wonder where the truth lies when, as Buzz so often says "I will always tell you the truth." I suppose some willful ommission here and there is the go-to out-clause here and can be dumped into the the "best interest of the kid" bucket...I mean, there's always ways out of these things...
Ultimately, I think Buzz is learning, and I'm nevertheless glad we have him finding talent and, for the most part, getting the "12 sons" to buy in.
Onward and upward.
And another:
Quote from: MarkCharles on October 15, 2010, 10:47:41 AM
The problem with Maymon was not him, it was his camp. Shocking, I know. But I have it from a very good source that the day Buzz kicked team Maymon of the team, he called all his teammates crying, trying to stay. That made me pretty upset with Buzz when I heard it, as it seemed that was pretty cold of him to do, but I know Buzz wouldn't take the decision lightly. I have no doubt that he would have found his niche at MU and would be one of our centerpieces moving forward, if not for his father. The stories I have heard about his dad are ridiculous, especially his behavior at the UW-MU game at the Kohl Center.
Buzz moved forward, and I hope we all can too. I wish him the best. It doesn't seem like we downgraded the talent much by losing him though, as he was replaced by Crowder/Wilson.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on December 21, 2010, 11:22:06 AM
You have missed the point. My point is that warthog's constant analogies to the military are misguided. College basketball is not the military.
But yes, integrity should also apply to college coaches. Too bad that's not the real world.
This is my point entirely. Jeronne was forced to choose between Marquette and his family.
All right! I "missed the point" and "got the point entirely" in the same post. ;D
Do I get a prize or something?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 21, 2010, 04:21:49 PM
So when you carry Chico's water is it because you're his little brother?
So, that's a 'yes'. Cool.
And I don't think Chicos needs a water carrier. He makes his points quite well on his own.
Enjoy your iPad this Christmas season!! ;)
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 21, 2010, 04:18:32 PM
As usual, no substance, all insult. High and mighty as it gets.
Seriously, you are just trying to pick a fight. Fine...here is your answer:
There is a distinct difference between standing up for basic human rights, such as speaking against the stoning of women, and ethical issues where there are plenty of shades of gray. I tend not to make absolute statements about someone's ethical behavior when I don't have a full picture of truly what went on. In this situation, neither you nor warthog really does, but that doesn't prevent either one of you from casting stones.
And instead of acknowledging this, and considering that Buzz et. al. also engage in such disloyal behavior, the subject changes to war, loyalty and honor. OK, whatever....have fun with that. Just don't expect me to be all that impressed.
0-2 :o