Like it, hate it, good move, bad move, Buzz has shown he is willing to do two things:
Take chances and make the tough call.
Despite the periodic controversy they create, these are qualities of a true leader. I think MU will be in good hands as long as Buzz is here.
Quote from: Ruby on July 06, 2010, 03:12:02 PM
Like it, hate it, good move, bad move, Buzz has shown he is willing to do two things:
Take chances and make the tough call.
Despite the periodic controversy they create, these are qualities of a true leader. I think MU will be in good hands as long as Buzz is here.
Was this on a play on words? Some folks are partly upset because he literally did not make that telephone call to DJ.
No play intended. Sorry for the choice of wording.
I think Buzz needs to believe enough in his recruiting ability to not sign marginal players. Leave the scholarship open until you have a player you want 100%. That is waht bothers me the most. There was no reason to sign Newbill, if you were going to continue to recruit for his scholarship.
my guess is the only reason Buzz did not make the call is becuase he was on the other line to Racine
Quote from: bilsu on July 06, 2010, 03:21:12 PM
I think Buzz needs to believe enough in his recruiting ability to not sign marginal players. Leave the scholarship open until you have a player you want 100%. That is waht bothers me the most. There was no reason to sign Newbill, if you were going to continue to recruit for his scholarship.
+1
He's young. He is still learning.
Quote from: Jamil_toMU10 on July 06, 2010, 03:53:13 PM
He's young. He is still learning.
Looks to me like he knows what he's doing.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on July 06, 2010, 04:04:01 PM
Looks to me like he knows what he's doing.
yeah you're right, he is totally experienced ::)
you know what I meant
I agree that there is still much for Buzz to learn and that at least from a PR standpoint he could have handled several situations better. My point is that when he recognizes an error or feels a change needs to be made, he does not back down from it and makes the call.
Recruiting is an art more than a science. There are too many unknown and changeable factors to guarantee not signing "marginal players."
Yeah, it was a real ballsy call to remotely pull DJ's scholarship when Jamil suddenly became available. Buzz is a virtual pillar of courage and principle.
Like it, hate it, good move, bad move, Buzz makes a change and MU gets better.
Quote from: bilsu on July 06, 2010, 03:21:12 PM
I think Buzz needs to believe enough in his recruiting ability to not sign marginal players. Leave the scholarship open until you have a player you want 100%. That is waht bothers me the most. There was no reason to sign Newbill, if you were going to continue to recruit for his scholarship.
+1. And the irony is that the last basketball staff received so much vitriol for signing marginal talent with the last remaining scholarship(s) instead of banking them, while this group is doing the same thing, only cutting them loose at the last second and putting MU in the current situation.
If you're not sure about a kid, don't put yourself in the situation we're in. Just not worth it.
Quote from: Ruby on July 06, 2010, 05:18:10 PM
Like it, hate it, good move, bad move, Buzz makes a change and MU gets better.
Maybe....there is a yin and yang to everything. You make it sound like all bad moves make MU better, all good moves make MU better, all liked moves make MU better, all hated moves make MU better.
Sorry, doesn't work that way in the real world. It may make them better, it may also have a number of unforeseen (as of yet) circumstances. We don't know yet and we won't for some time.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 06, 2010, 05:26:19 PM
Maybe....there is a yin and yang to everything. You make it sound like all bad moves make MU better, all good moves make MU better, all liked moves make MU better, all hated moves make MU better.
Sorry, doesn't work that way in the real world. It may make them better, it may also have a number of unforeseen (as of yet) circumstances. We don't know yet and we won't for some time.
You reckon it'll take, oh, 3 -5 years? Yeah, kinda thought so.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 06, 2010, 05:23:15 PM
If you're not sure about a kid, don't put yourself in the situation we're in. Just not worth it.
What situation is that exactly? Again, anytime anyone wants to explain to me what the tangible negative impact any of this is going to be on MU's program, I'm all ears. I realize that oversigning.com typically gives Drudge and Yahoo a run for their money on the old hit counter, but that aside, except for an extremely small group of people who are choosing to be outraged by this, nobody knows, let alone cares about it.
Hopefully it won't take nearly as long to recover from this one as it did to recover from the Damian Saunders or Brett Roseboro fiascoes. I was beginning to think we'd never sign another recruit again.
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on July 06, 2010, 03:25:01 PM
my guess is the only reason Buzz did not make the call is becuase he was on the other line to Racine
Like this
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on July 06, 2010, 03:25:01 PM
my guess is the only reason Buzz did not make the call is becuase he was on the other line to Racine
No excuse, he's the CEO of the team, he has to make the call. Just as Crean should have told his team he was leaving. Coaches have to deliver good news and bad news, not just one variety and let the assistants do the dirty work when bad news comes.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 06, 2010, 09:52:24 PM
You reckon it'll take, oh, 3 -5 years? Yeah, kinda thought so.
Don't, but this latest example is proof in point why I wait 5 years to make a judgment. Because you never know and only time gives you the data needed.
By the way Lenny, do you think MU should honor commitments? You've been strangely silent on that. Oh, and Rosiak did say he was offered by West Virginia. ;)
Quote from: bilsu on July 06, 2010, 03:21:12 PM
I think Buzz needs to believe enough in his recruiting ability to not sign marginal players. Leave the scholarship open until you have a player you want 100%. That is waht bothers me the most. There was no reason to sign Newbill, if you were going to continue to recruit for his scholarship.
I would generally agree with this statement (especially the last sentence), but look at how we were burned during the Crean era, vying for a highly touted recruit only to have to "settle" late in the recruiting season.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 06, 2010, 11:29:19 PM
No excuse, he's the CEO of the team, he has to make the call. Just as Crean should have told his team he was leaving. Coaches have to deliver good news and bad news, not just one variety and let the assistants do the dirty work when bad news comes.
Good Lord. Are people seriously suggesting that he chose to have Monarch call because he was afraid to make a difficult call? What a crock. Monarch made the call because Monarch had the relationship.
But, as we all know, you wait 5 years before making a judgment. If by 5 years, you mean 5 minutes, I agree with you.
Quote from: Ruby on July 06, 2010, 03:14:09 PM
No play intended. Sorry for the choice of wording.
How about, "sorry for bringing this subject up again"? It's enough already.
I have no problems with what Buzz did.
There will be no lingering effects, this happens all the time and DJ will still get a free education and D1 bball.
Next year's team is going to be scary. Go MU
Chico Counter
Posts on thread: 4
Incorrect/Illogical Statements: 4
"Glass Half Empty": 3
Crean mentions: 2
Who had these numbers on the prediction board?
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on July 06, 2010, 10:07:10 PM
What situation is that exactly? Again, anytime anyone wants to explain to me what the tangible negative impact any of this is going to be on MU's program, I'm all ears. I realize that oversigning.com typically gives Drudge and Yahoo a run for their money on the old hit counter, but that aside, except for an extremely small group of people who are choosing to be outraged by this, nobody knows, let alone cares about it.
Hopefully it won't take nearly as long to recover from this one as it did to recover from the Damian Saunders or Brett Roseboro fiascoes. I was beginning to think we'd never sign another recruit again.
+1
MU's current situation is one where Buzz continues to bring in highly-touted recruits in order to add depth and make the program better. That irks Chico because his ex struggled to do this while at MU and is having similar struggles in Bloomington.
This thread is not about Newbill, although the situation provides the latest example of my point. This thread is about Buzz and his ability to make the tough call to help the program move forward.
By definition a tough call is open to criticism and that is fine. I'm not arguing with any points made here. Buzz should get the criticism, but he should also get the praise for upgrading the talent level of players at MU. It is not a pretty business, and blood does get shed, however, can anyone say the program is not improving at least from a recruitment standpoint. Certainly performance on the court and wins, tournament success still needs to be proven, but I am more confident that MU will get its share of top players now that Buzz is in charge than I have been with any other coach.
The point of the thread is that Buzz is a leader and willing to take the heat to make MU better.
Quote from: Ruby on July 07, 2010, 08:31:41 AM
It is not a pretty business, and blood does get shed, however, can anyone say the program is not improving at least from a recruitment standpoint. Certainly performance on the court and wins, tournament success still needs to be proven, but I am more confident that MU will get its share of top players now that Buzz is in charge than I have been with any other coach.
Success is great, but at what cost? How much "blood getting shed" is acceptable? Where's line and has Buzz crossed it?
My problem with the "If-you-criticize-Buzz-you-must-be-an-MU-hater" crowd is the end justifies the means.
I don't want to see my alma mater turn into Kentucky. I don't want to see my coach turn into Bob Huggins. I root against those kinds of win-at-all-costs teams/coaches because they are despicable.
The slippery slope starts with looking the other way when a kid gets $crewed over simply because it makes the team more competitive.
Quote from: 3Mer on July 07, 2010, 08:42:35 AM
Success is great, but at what cost? How much "blood getting shed" is acceptable? Where's line and has Buzz crossed it?
My problem with the "If-you-criticize-Buzz-you-must-be-an-MU-hater" crowd is the end justifies the means.
I don't want to see my alma mater turn into Kentucky. I don't want to see my coach turn into Bob Huggins (Huggins is a lot better than people realize). I root against those kinds of win-at-all-costs teams/coaches because they are despicable.
The slippery slope starts with looking the other way when a kid gets $crewed over simply because it makes the team more competitive.
+1 (except the Huggins stuff)
And I'm a Buzz guy.
I think we would all agree we do not want to become Cincy of a few years back. Have we done that yet? A guy named Little on one of those teams ducked taped his roomate to a chair and held him at knife point becuase he felt he owed him money. Buzz seems to make sure his player's go to class, Graduate, work hard to develop as player's, Look how much (Wes, Lazar, and Jimmy have improved under him) and also be good as MU students and Milwaukee residents, I have heard they make allot of appearences in the community and to a person every one that has come in contact with some of the player's have all had great things to say about them as people. I think their is much more to the story with with DJ than we will ever know, but I would agree that I'm not 100% comforatable with how it played out. Buzz is a yound coach and is not immune from making a few bad or questionable decision, and all I can ask is he learns from them. If I had to choose between a having MU's Coach make 90% decisions I like and be ranked each year and go to the NCAA's and a coach that makes 95% decisions I like and finish in the bottom couple of the Big East every year I know what I would choose. I think people are underestimating how hard Buzz's job is and how close every coach outside of the top 5 are to failing.
QuoteSuccess is great, but at what cost? How much "blood getting shed" is acceptable? Where's line and has Buzz crossed it?
Good questions. Exactly why Buzz and any coach needs to be watched. However, you need to judge people in the game by the same standards. Were JMay or Mbakwe any less ethical than Buzz for not honoring their signed NLIs? Did Buzz actually do Roseboro and Newbill a favor by sending them packing before they wasted a year of eligibility at MU or was Crean more ethical for keeping players around and "encouraging" them to leave after they had spent a year? If Buzz doesn't win is it ethical for the school to fire him even if he has a signed contract?
So many questions. So elusive the answers.
Quote from: The Lens on July 07, 2010, 08:49:11 AM
+1 (except the Huggins stuff)
And I'm a Buzz guy.
Count me in this camp too.
Also, this is the kind of thing that makes me look at the "Circles in LA" video a little bit differently.
"I don't want to see my alma mater turn into Kentucky. I don't want to see my coach turn into Bob Huggins. I root against those kinds of win-at-all-costs teams/coaches because they are despicable."
God, now we're UK with Bob Huggins coaching... Could you overblow this situation any further, and be any more dramatic?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 07, 2010, 08:14:11 AM
Chico Counter
Posts on thread: 4
Incorrect/Illogical Statements: 4
"Glass Half Empty": 3
Crean mentions: 2
Who had these numbers on the prediction board?
Can you explain what you found illogical or incorrect about Chico's posts?
didn't monarch call stan laws? has it been said that buzz didn't call DJ directly, and had monarch, who did the recruiting, to call the coach?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 07, 2010, 08:14:11 AM
Chico Counter
Posts on thread: 4
Incorrect/Illogical Statements: 4
"Glass Half Empty": 3
Crean mentions: 2
Who had these numbers on the prediction board?
Las Vegas has currently taken the over/unders on all these categories "off the board. Heavy action on all the "overs".
Quote from: Ruby on July 07, 2010, 09:05:06 AM
Good questions. Exactly why Buzz and any coach needs to be watched. However, you need to judge people in the game by the same standards. Were JMay or Mbakwe any less ethical than Buzz for not honoring their signed NLIs?
Mbakwe and JMay both honored their NLIs.
Quote from: PE8983 on July 07, 2010, 09:35:44 AM
"I don't want to see my alma mater turn into Kentucky. I don't want to see my coach turn into Bob Huggins. I root against those kinds of win-at-all-costs teams/coaches because they are despicable."
God, now we're UK with Bob Huggins coaching... Could you overblow this situation any further, and be any more dramatic?
If Buzz goes on and has a 100% graduation rate and has a long career at MU, this will be a small pimple.
But, what if this isn't a pimple? What if it's cancer?
I'm sure Calipari defenders aren't terrible people. They just love their team, so they rationalize everything.
"He had 1 problem up at UMASS, but he's a great coach." (memphis fan in 2001)
Let's be clear: I'm not saying Buzz is anywhere near coach cal's level... but true character is revealed over time. We'll see if this is a pimple or cancer.
Like Navin always says, we'll probably know in 5 years.
Quote from: PE8983 on July 07, 2010, 09:35:44 AM
God, now we're UK with Bob Huggins coaching... Could you overblow this situation any further, and be any more dramatic?
I apologize for being overly dramatic. Clearly, from the dearth of posts on this situation, I'm the only one experiencing a bit of trepidation.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on July 07, 2010, 10:36:48 AM
If Buzz goes on and has a 100% graduation rate and has a long career at MU, this will be a small pimple.
But, what if this isn't a pimple? What if it's cancer?
I'm sure Calipari defenders aren't terrible people. They just love their team, so they rationalize everything.
"He had 1 problem up at UMASS, but he's a great coach." (memphis fan in 2001)
Let's be clear: I'm not saying Buzz is anywhere near coach cal's level... but true character is revealed over time. We'll see if this is a pimple or cancer.
Like Navin always says, we'll probably know in 5 years.
We get it chicken little. The sky is falling.
Quote from: ATWizJr on July 07, 2010, 11:15:54 AM
We get it chicken little. The sky is falling.
Oh christ.
I didn't say it was... but let's not just ignore everything and call anybody who expresses concern anti-MU.
If this is an isolated incident, then no big deal. If this amount of roster turnover occurs year after year, I'm going to be concerned.
I'll call this a speeding ticket. 1 is no big deal. Lots and lots of tickets can be an indication that something bigger is going on.
Sky is not falling, but I'm not blind.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on July 07, 2010, 10:36:48 AM
Like Navin always says, we'll probably know in 5 years.
I don't always say that, other than to point out the absurdity of those who claim they don't judge a coach for 3-5 years, and subsequently make judgments every chance they get.
Why again is "roster turnover" a no-no?
Everybody was up in arms over JUCO commits too until they realized JUCO's aren't actually the devil incarnate, they can be outstanding people who go to class and graduate too.
Being disappointed in the Newbill situation is one thing, but comparing MU to UK, and Buzz to Calipari and Huggins, is completely over the top.
This board is completely out of control over this incident. It seems alot of people who don't like Buzz are coming out of the woodwork just to get their shots in.
IMO, the Victor Rudd announcement today that he picked USF over MU and a few other schools is further indicative that someone was going prep like Buzz said a long time ago. Somebody was most likely coming in, whether it was Wilson, Rudd, or someone else. Wilson just happened to be the best option. There wasn't one action made by Newbill that indicated that he was intending on being at MU for the second summer session.
Dog days of summer bring out bored "men" and their mud slinging/gossip chats.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on July 07, 2010, 11:23:41 AM
Oh christ.
I didn't say it was... but let's not just ignore everything and call anybody who expresses concern anti-MU.
If this is an isolated incident, then no big deal. If this amount of roster turnover occurs year after year, I'm going to be concerned.
I'll call this a speeding ticket. 1 is no big deal. Lots and lots of tickets can be an indication that something bigger is going on.
Sky is not falling, but I'm not blind.
A speeding ticket....OK Officer 2002.
Up until now, I've been happy with what Buzz has brought to the program, but from the looks of this situation, I have to say I'm disappointed. Maybe something will come to light to change my mind, but as of now, I think what Buzz did was wrong. I don't really care what the weirdo UW trolls have to say, but I hope we strive to be better and have more integrity than the win at all cost schools. If all you care about is winning, they might as well get paid and be professionals.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on July 07, 2010, 11:26:34 AM
I don't always say that, other than to point out the absurdity of those who claim they don't judge a coach for 3-5 years, and subsequently make judgments every chance they get.
Bingo. I'd guess Chicos has at minimum a couple of thousand posts "judging" Buzz since he was hired and the vast majority of them are decidedly negative. He thinks that when he adds a "but I really like Buzz" or a "I think Buzz is doing a great job so far" to a post ripping him it evens things out. Just as he thinks adding a "sure TC can be a jerk" to a soliloquey calling for TC's canonization it proves he's no longer gaga over his boy.
This whole DJ Newbill situation is exhibit A. Don't get me wrong. Buzz certainly owns blame here. Offering a scholarship you may not have (even if the recipient is made aware) is the wrong way to do business. But at least the athletic department and Buzz are admitting it's their decision that DJ won't be coming to MU. Crean did the same thing with Damian Saunders in 2006, then washed his hands ala Pontius Pilate as he had the admissions office do his dirty work for him. That Chicos is apoplectic over Buzz "ruining a kids life" (can you say hyperbole) but unquestioning of TC says it all.
Again, I'm not saying that because Crean was as big or a bigger creep in a similiar situation it excuses Buzz. And while I happen to think outrage is an over the top reaction in this case I won't quibble with those who honestly feel it (MUSF, 3 Mers, etc). I won't, however, accept it from someone who didn't even take pause over the whole Saunders fiasco.
Quote from: ATWizJr on July 07, 2010, 11:51:54 AM
A speeding ticket....OK Officer 2002.
Dude, I'm just trying to make an analogy to clarify my point.
I don't think the sky is falling, but if situations like this arise over and over again, it will be a sign that there are issues at MU.
I like Buzz, but there is nothing wrong with being disappointed in how this happened.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on July 07, 2010, 11:26:34 AM
I don't always say that, other than to point out the absurdity of those who claim they don't judge a coach for 3-5 years, and subsequently make judgments every chance they get.
I know bud, just teasing.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on July 07, 2010, 02:07:26 PM
Dude, I'm just trying to make an analogy to clarify my point.
I don't think the sky is falling, but if situations like this arise over and over again, it will be a sign that there are issues at MU.
I like Buzz, but there is nothing wrong with being disappointed in how this happened.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is exactly my point; before getting too alarmed, why don't we wait to see if situations like this arise over and over again.
And we don't even really know what happened in this situation!
Quote from: ATWizJr on July 07, 2010, 02:27:06 PM
Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is exactly my point; before getting too alarmed, why don't we wait to see if situations like this arise over and over again.
And we don't even really know what happened in this situation!
Well, then we agree.
Sweet.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on July 07, 2010, 03:43:48 PM
Well, then we agree.
Sweet.
Almost. So, don't bring it up until situations like this arise over and over again.
Don't bother to thank me.
Quote from: Ruby on July 07, 2010, 09:05:06 AM
Good questions. Exactly why Buzz and any coach needs to be watched. However, you need to judge people in the game by the same standards. Were JMay or Mbakwe any less ethical than Buzz for not honoring their signed NLIs? Did Buzz actually do Roseboro and Newbill a favor by sending them packing before they wasted a year of eligibility at MU or was Crean more ethical for keeping players around and "encouraging" them to leave after they had spent a year? If Buzz doesn't win is it ethical for the school to fire him even if he has a signed contract?
So many questions. So elusive the answers.
Great post..all good questions.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 07, 2010, 10:32:07 AM
Mbakwe and JMay both honored their NLIs.
To say that Mbawke and JMay honored their NLI's is splitting hairs, at best. But, if you want to play that way, what about Tyshawn Taylor and Nick Williams? Did they honor their LOI's to Marquette University? Big, fat, NO. JMay - he didn't even hold up the "1-year" language of the NLI..bailed after 7 months.
These kids don't really give a rats ass that they are playing ball for Marquette University - they come to Marquette to develop their basketball game to its fullest potential..AND...in the process grow as young men. They select Marquette due to the Coach, number 1, to the current players on the team, number 2..and the university/facilities, 3. If this is false, then Taylor and Williams both would have honored their LOI's..as would Kevin Noreen at Boston College..and countless other examples. The point is these kids use a university to advance their own agenda - is it that wrong for a Coach to advance his own agenda...when he elects to dismiss a player that likely wouldn't be a contributor - or suggest that he look at other options as he is overmatched? Roseboro landed on his feet at St. Bonnies..Newbill will land on his feet somewhere too. Keep in mind, it is very likely Buzz gave the Newbill camp some indication all along that prep school could be an option...and ultimately the Newbill camp thought they'd get into MU without prepping..so when that became the reality..they were upset/disappointed..and asked for their outright release.
Quote from: Ners on July 07, 2010, 10:44:04 PM
To say that Mbawke and JMay honored their NLI's is splitting hairs, at best. But, if you want to play that way, what about Tyshawn Taylor and Nick Williams? Did they honor their LOI's to Marquette University? Big, fat, NO. JMay - he didn't even hold up the "1-year" language of the NLI..bailed after 7 months.
These kids don't really give a rats ass that they are playing ball for Marquette University - they come to Marquette to develop their basketball game to its fullest potential..AND...in the process grow as young men. They select Marquette due to the Coach, number 1, to the current players on the team, number 2..and the university/facilities, 3. If this is false, then Taylor and Williams both would have honored their LOI's..as would Kevin Noreen at Boston College..and countless other examples. The point is these kids use a university to advance their own agenda - is it that wrong for a Coach to advance his own agenda...when he elects to dismiss a player that likely wouldn't be a contributor - or suggest that he look at other options as he is overmatched? Roseboro landed on his feet at St. Bonnies..Newbill will land on his feet somewhere too. Keep in mind, it is very likely Buzz gave the Newbill camp some indication all along that prep school could be an option...and ultimately the Newbill camp thought they'd get into MU without prepping..so when that became the reality..they were upset/disappointed..and asked for their outright release.
Amen. These are big boys, who have their own advisors. The top recruits are in it to get to the NBA. Tyshawn Taylor is a great example. If these guys perceive a change will do them good, they will make it.
Quote from: Ners on July 07, 2010, 10:44:04 PM
To say that Mbawke and JMay honored their NLI's is splitting hairs, at best. But, if you want to play that way, what about Tyshawn Taylor and Nick Williams? Did they honor their LOI's to Marquette University? Big, fat, NO. JMay - he didn't even hold up the "1-year" language of the NLI..bailed after 7 months.
These kids don't really give a rats ass that they are playing ball for Marquette University - they come to Marquette to develop their basketball game to its fullest potential..AND...in the process grow as young men. They select Marquette due to the Coach, number 1, to the current players on the team, number 2..and the university/facilities, 3. If this is false, then Taylor and Williams both would have honored their LOI's..as would Kevin Noreen at Boston College..and countless other examples. The point is these kids use a university to advance their own agenda - is it that wrong for a Coach to advance his own agenda...when he elects to dismiss a player that likely wouldn't be a contributor - or suggest that he look at other options as he is overmatched? Roseboro landed on his feet at St. Bonnies..Newbill will land on his feet somewhere too. Keep in mind, it is very likely Buzz gave the Newbill camp some indication all along that prep school could be an option...and ultimately the Newbill camp thought they'd get into MU without prepping..so when that became the reality..they were upset/disappointed..and asked for their outright release.
Settle down....I was pointing out a factual error in his post. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 08, 2010, 07:58:50 AM
Settle down....I was pointing out a factual error in his post. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Splitting hairs for sure...and it was pretty clear what the original poster's intent was...and what is your reaction to Taylor and Williams not honoring their LOI's to Marquette and Buzz? Leaving MU and Buzz in scramble mode late in the spring signing period? Or Mbawke..who used MU's medical staff to get his knee rehabbed to the best possible outcome..and then bailed on Buzz right before the start of the season? This is a two-way street and kids break commitments to universities with far greater frequency than vice versa. And again, we don't know the EXACT nature of the conversations between Buzz and the Newbills during the initial recruitment...so to fully assume MU totally screwed Newbill over is speculation/rumor/gossip at best.
Quote from: Ners on July 08, 2010, 08:45:58 AM
Splitting hairs for sure...and it was pretty clear what the original poster's intent was...and what is your reaction to Taylor and Williams not honoring their LOI's to Marquette and Buzz? Leaving MU and Buzz in scramble mode late in the spring signing period? Or Mbawke..who used MU's medical staff to get his knee rehabbed to the best possible outcome..and then bailed on Buzz right before the start of the season? This is a two-way street and kids break commitments to universities with far greater frequency than vice versa. And again, we don't know the EXACT nature of the conversations between Buzz and the Newbills during the initial recruitment...so to fully assume MU totally screwed Newbill over is speculation/rumor/gossip at best.
I don't think we should be in the business of signing kids to LOIs we do not plan on honoring, regardless of whatever side conversations we had. If Buzz wants the flexibility of late season signings or transfers, don't offer the LOI to marginal D1 prospects in the first place. I don't know if we screwed him over...I do know that it doesn't look good.
I don't like what Taylor or Mbakwe did...although what Taylor did was much more understandable. I think the Nick Williams situation was a mutual decision considering that we didn't blink letting him out of his LOI.
Quote from: Ners on July 08, 2010, 08:45:58 AM
Splitting hairs for sure...and it was pretty clear what the original poster's intent was...and what is your reaction to Taylor and Williams not honoring their LOI's to Marquette and Buzz? Leaving MU and Buzz in scramble mode late in the spring signing period? Or Mbawke..who used MU's medical staff to get his knee rehabbed to the best possible outcome..and then bailed on Buzz right before the start of the season? This is a two-way street and kids break commitments to universities with far greater frequency than vice versa. And again, we don't know the EXACT nature of the conversations between Buzz and the Newbills during the initial recruitment...so to fully assume MU totally screwed Newbill over is speculation/rumor/gossip at best.
On some level i agree that it works both ways but these aren't apples to apples comparisons.
In the case of Taylor and Williams, conditions changed when the coach left. With Newbill we simply found someone better. The only situation that would be truly apples to apples is if a recruit opted out because a better offer came up which they can't do once they sign the NLI. I doubt MU or any school would let a player like Taylor out of his NLI if nothing changed except he suddenly had a chance to play for a better team.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 08, 2010, 08:57:59 AM
I don't think we should be in the business of signing kids to LOIs we do not plan on honoring, regardless of whatever side conversations we had. If Buzz wants the flexibility of late season signings or transfers, don't offer the LOI to marginal D1 prospects in the first place. I don't know if we screwed him over...I do know that it doesn't look good.
I don't like what Taylor or Mbakwe did...although what Taylor did was much more understandable. I think the Nick Williams situation was a mutual decision considering that we didn't blink letting him out of his LOI.
I can agree with all of the above - though I do think there is some relevance as to the side conversations involved in the recruitment. I'm pretty sure Buzz was planning on this going down like the way Jay Wright has stashed 1 kid at prep school each of the last 2 years..but ultimately it didn't..and perhaps things that transpired from the offer, NLI signing, and ultimatle release - such as not getting application in, etc...just resulted in the parties going seperate ways.
Quote from: ATWizJr on July 07, 2010, 04:59:57 PM
Almost. So, don't bring it up until situations like this arise over and over again.
Don't bother to thank me.
What is the minimum number of times weird stuff has to happen before we can talk about it?
New Orleans? Ok, the University is nuts.
Mbawke? Ok, the kid is nuts.
Roseboro? Ok, the kid wasn't good enough.
Mac? Buzz was nuts, but apologized.
Mo Acker? Ok, the kid made a mistake.
Maymon? Ok, the family is nuts.
Newbill? Ok, the AAU coach is nuts.
I'm not blaming Buzz for ANY of this stuff, I assure you of that. There is rationale behind all of them.
BUT (playing devils advocate) at what point is it ok to notice some things or be concerned that Buzz is the common denominator? He's not the blame, but a large list of "weird stuff" could be a concern. Where is the tipping point?
I'm not anti-MU or anti-Buzz, I'm just trying to be honest. I'm very pleased with the way things have gone so far, but if the list of odd situations continues to grow, I have to wonder what the heck is going on.
This is not a snap judgment or an indictment of Buzz. It's just an honest observation.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on July 08, 2010, 09:24:40 AM
What is the minimum number of times weird stuff has to happen before we can talk about it?
New Orleans? Ok, the University is nuts.
Mbawke? Ok, the kid is nuts.
Roseboro? Ok, the kid wasn't good enough.
Mac? Buzz was nuts, but apologized.
Mo Acker? Ok, the kid made a mistake.
Maymon? Ok, the family is nuts.
Newbill? Ok, the AAU coach is nuts.
I'm not blaming Buzz for ANY of this stuff, I assure you of that. There is rationale behind all of them.
BUT (playing devils advocate) at what point is it ok to notice some things or be concerned that Buzz is the common denominator? He's not the blame, but a large list of "weird stuff" could be a concern. Where is the tipping point?
I'm not anti-MU or anti-Buzz, I'm just trying to be honest. I'm very pleased with the way things have gone so far, but if the list of odd situations continues to grow, I have to wonder what the heck is going on.
This is not a snap judgment or an indictment of Buzz. It's just an honest observation.
What's the point of your observation - trying create a fire where there isn't even really smoke? You acknowledge that 6 of the above 7 incidents the other party was nuts. Do you want Buzz to be Jesus Christ..a walking, living, perfect human being? He messed up with Mac in the ehat of the moment, and apologized..not a big deal..as for the other incidents you emtnion you have:
1) A University that moved down to Division 3 after it couldn't properly fund a D-1 program..which is what Buzz alledged..and why he left..and the move to D-3 completely exonerates Buzz.
2)Mbawke - an accused rapist
3)Roseboro - Guilty of assult, and a 1.8ppg average at St. boneaventure - he was overmatched at MU..clearly..and the kid realized it and decided to transfer..better than rotting at the end of the bench..sometimes recruiting mistakes are made..as far as talent evaluation.
4) Mo Acker..simply listen to his comments about Buzz on Senior ay..all that needs to be said..and..Buzz basically told him to quit if he was gonna keep puffing the kind..
5) Maymon - Does anyone doubt if Tim Maymon is a little crazy? has a criminal record? His son was getting 16 minutes a game as a freshman..but they weren't happy? Please. But, his recruitment no doubt helped in getting Vander Blue more interested in Buzz and MU
6) Newbill - A questionable decision..and both Buzz and newbills deserve some blame
So..your post is definitely intended to be inflammatory..andd don't try to hide behind it by making statements such as: I'm not blaming Buzz for any of this stuff..or I'm not anti-Buzz, etc...so if you aren't blaming Buzz for any of this stuff..then why try to play a devils advocate role..and make something out of nothing? Your post was lame.
New Orleans? Ok, the University is nuts.
Mbawke? Ok, the kid is nuts.
Roseboro? Ok, the kid wasn't good enough.
Mac? Buzz was nuts, but apologized.
Mo Acker? Ok, the kid made a mistake.
Maymon? Ok, the family is nuts.
Newbill? Ok, the AAU coach is nuts.
Out of curiosity, who are some of the other coaches that have had a similar amount of "drama" over the course of the last 2 or so years?
Quote from: goodgreatgrand on July 08, 2010, 09:38:39 AM
New Orleans? Ok, the University is nuts.
Mbawke? Ok, the kid is nuts.
Roseboro? Ok, the kid wasn't good enough.
Mac? Buzz was nuts, but apologized.
Mo Acker? Ok, the kid made a mistake.
Maymon? Ok, the family is nuts.
Newbill? Ok, the AAU coach is nuts.
Out of curiosity, who are some of the other coaches that have had a similar amount of "drama" over the course of the last 2 or so years?
Calhoun, maybe?
Quote from: goodgreatgrand on July 08, 2010, 09:38:39 AM
New Orleans? Ok, the University is nuts.
Mbawke? Ok, the kid is nuts.
Roseboro? Ok, the kid wasn't good enough.
Mac? Buzz was nuts, but apologized.
Mo Acker? Ok, the kid made a mistake.
Maymon? Ok, the family is nuts.
Newbill? Ok, the AAU coach is nuts.
Out of curiosity, who are some of the other coaches that have had a similar amount of "drama" over the course of the last 2 or so years?
Tom Crean
Many coaches oversign and there is a lot of roster turnover in today's college basketball from year to year.
These realities are here to stay most likely, so you need to realize coaches are coaches not priests and because a coach oversigns and tries to maximize their roster potential doesn't make them "nuts".
Quote from: Ners on July 08, 2010, 09:34:56 AM
What's the point of your observation - trying create a fire where there isn't even really smoke? You acknowledge that 6 of the above 7 incidents the other party was nuts. Do you want Buzz to be Jesus Christ..a walking, living, perfect human being? He messed up with Mac in the ehat of the moment, and apologized..not a big deal..as for the other incidents you emtnion you have:
1) A University that moved down to Division 3 after it couldn't properly fund a D-1 program..which is what Buzz alledged..and why he left..and the move to D-3 completely exonerates Buzz.
2)Mbawke - an accused rapist
3)Roseboro - Guilty of assult, and a 1.8ppg average at St. boneaventure - he was overmatched at MU..clearly..and the kid realized it and decided to transfer..better than rotting at the end of the bench..sometimes recruiting mistakes are made..as far as talent evaluation.
4) Mo Acker..simply listen to his comments about Buzz on Senior ay..all that needs to be said..and..Buzz basically told him to quit if he was gonna keep puffing the kind..
5) Maymon - Does anyone doubt if Tim Maymon is a little crazy? has a criminal record? His son was getting 16 minutes a game as a freshman..but they weren't happy? Please. But, his recruitment no doubt helped in getting Vander Blue more interested in Buzz and MU
6) Newbill - A questionable decision..and both Buzz and newbills deserve some blame
So..your post is definitely intended to be inflammatory..andd don't try to hide behind it by making statements such as: I'm not blaming Buzz for any of this stuff..or I'm not anti-Buzz, etc...so if you aren't blaming Buzz for any of this stuff..then why try to play a devils advocate role..and make something out of nothing? Your post was lame.
Easy, dude.
I'm just trying to make an honest observation and not be a homer.
Please don't blow a gasket.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 08, 2010, 10:01:27 AM
Tom Crean
You are 100% correct, and he gets blasted for it.
I'm not saying Buzz should be ripped for this stuff.
I'm just trying not to be a fanboy.
Quote from: Stone Cold on July 08, 2010, 10:07:44 AM
Many coaches oversign and there is a lot of roster turnover in today's college basketball from year to year.
These realities are here to stay most likely, so you need to realize coaches are coaches not priests and because a coach oversigns and tries to maximize their roster potential doesn't make them "nuts".
Never said Buzz was nuts, and I agree with you for the most part.
I've never claimed college coaches were saints/priests. For the most part they are highly motivated dudes with big egos. I get that.
The roster turnover stuff is a touchy subject I guess. Maybe that is the new reality in college hoops and has nothing to do with Buzz. I guess time will tell.
Roseboro, The mistake was made that Buzz never got a real chance to look at him before the early signing period and he jumped the gun on offering worrying that by the late period lots of guys would be jumping into the Mix. Then he did not have a great senior year and then when he got onto campus Buzz was seeing and being told that he was overmatched at the Big East level. Buzz deicded it was in MU's and Brett's best interest to move on then compared to after a year where he would have had to sit out a year before he could play. I hope that buzz is a looks a little harder at player's before he lets them sign a LOI. DJ's situation as different.
Quote from: Stone Cold on July 08, 2010, 10:07:44 AM
Many coaches oversign and there is a lot of roster turnover in today's college basketball from year to year.
Im not suggesting you are wrong, but I am curious who the coaches that oversign are. If there are "many" that do it every year, then who were some of the coaches that did it last year?
Quote from: Stone Cold on July 08, 2010, 10:07:44 AM
Many coaches oversign and there is a lot of roster turnover in today's college basketball from year to year.
These realities are here to stay most likely, so you need to realize coaches are coaches not priests and because a coach oversigns and tries to maximize their roster potential doesn't make them "nuts".
+1. Take a look around the conference, player movement happens at every school.
Also, the Mac radio incident, is a trivial issue at best. Plus, how is the Mo Acker situation nothing but a net positive for Buzz.
Acker is not following team rules, so Buzz kicks him off the team (Right move). Acker a few months later realizes his mistake and cleanups his act and Buzz gives him a second shot (Again IMO, right move. One with significant risk to Buzz if Acker flames out again). In the end, Acker has a very nice senior season, plays a important role on the team and graduates.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on July 08, 2010, 10:12:20 AM
You are 100% correct, and he gets blasted for it.
I'm not saying Buzz should be ripped for this stuff.
I'm just trying not to be a fanboy.
So basically you are insinuating that Buzz is partially responsible for the drama associated with: the former universtity he coached at electing to go to D3 ball, an accused rapist brought in by the previous regime, a player with an assult and battery conviction and 1.8ppg average, a pot smoking player he inherited from the previous regime..that he told to take a hike for awhile, an overzealous father with a criminal record?
And could you definte "fanboy?" What is that?
Quote from: RJax55 on July 08, 2010, 10:20:18 AM
+1. Take a look around the conference, player movement happens at every school.
Jeez. Quite a few blanket statements this morning.
Gonzo is a nutjob and got fired. Norm Roberts sucked and got fired. DePaul is Div 2. Coaching changes create turnover. Calhoun has gone mad and his absences are starting to hurt recruiting. We have had neither a coaching change nor a coach that has lost his mind.
Quote from: goodgreatgrand on July 08, 2010, 10:17:06 AM
Im not suggesting you are wrong, but I am curious who the coaches that oversign are. If there are "many" that do it every year, then who were some of the coaches that did it last year?
Some don't oversign, but they just choose to keep dudes on their team that punch their girlfriend..i.e.: Derek Devendorf at Syracuse.
Roseboro was his mistake. He opted to correct it in the cleanest way possible for him and Brett. When he discussed with Brett that he was not going to play in the Big East, he had no idea the assault charge would ever happen. That happened 9 mos after we cut ties with him. Brett did not have a history of that type of thing when he arrived. I think Buzz made the right call here, I just want him to watch player's a little more in the future before he makes a offer and lets somebody sign a LOI.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on July 08, 2010, 09:24:40 AM
What is the minimum number of times weird stuff has to happen before we can talk about it?
New Orleans? Ok, the University is nuts.
Mbawke? Ok, the kid is nuts.
Roseboro? Ok, the kid wasn't good enough.
Mac? Buzz was nuts, but apologized.
Mo Acker? Ok, the kid made a mistake.
Maymon? Ok, the family is nuts.
Newbill? Ok, the AAU coach is nuts.
I'm not blaming Buzz for ANY of this stuff, I assure you of that. There is rationale behind all of them.
BUT (playing devils advocate) at what point is it ok to notice some things or be concerned that Buzz is the common denominator? He's not the blame, but a large list of "weird stuff" could be a concern. Where is the tipping point?
I'm not anti-MU or anti-Buzz, I'm just trying to be honest. I'm very pleased with the way things have gone so far, but if the list of odd situations continues to grow, I have to wonder what the heck is going on.
This is not a snap judgment or an indictment of Buzz. It's just an honest observation.
So, in this long list, the only point remotely worth considering is the Newbill situation and we don't even know what actually happened there. Tenuous, at best, officer. Maybe a warning instead of ticket # 1? I got it, yellow card!! :D
Quote from: kmwtrucks on July 08, 2010, 10:34:27 AM
Roseboro was his mistake. He opted to correct it in the cleanest way possible for him and Brett. When he discussed with Brett that he was not going to play in the Big East, he had no idea the assault charge would ever happen. That happened 9 mos after we cut ties with him. Brett did not have a history of that type of thing when he arrived. I think Buzz made the right call here, I just want him to watch player's a little more in the future before he makes a offer and lets somebody sign a LOI.
Agree..in full..simply referenced the assult charge as additional background...from a basketball point of view alone..Roseboro moving on in the fashion he did was the best for both parties...and it wasn't a case where we sent him away and brought someone else in to replace him.
Quote from: Ners on July 08, 2010, 10:20:53 AM
So basically you are insinuating that Buzz is partially responsible for the drama associated with: the former universtity he coached at electing to go to D3 ball, an accused rapist brought in by the previous regime, a player with an assult and battery conviction and 1.8ppg average, a pot smoking player he inherited from the previous regime..that he told to take a hike for awhile, an overzealous father with a criminal record?
And could you definte "fanboy?" What is that?
I forgot to mention Riley, but that's not Buzz's fault either.
A fanboy (imo) is somebody who rationalizes every move the coach or school makes.
Buzz is very good coach and I'm very pleased with the results so far. But, that doesn't mean that I can't make an honest observation about some of the weird stuff Buzz has been involved with.
It's not an attack on Buzz, I still like him a lot.
Quote from: ATWizJr on July 08, 2010, 10:43:26 AM
So, in this long list, the only point remotely worth considering is the Newbill situation and we don't even know what actually happened there. Tenuous, at best, officer. Maybe a warning instead of ticket # 1? I got it, yellow card!! :D
Let me be more clear:
None of this stuff is damning evidence for anything. I'm not trying to prove anything to anybody.
But, if "stuff" like this happens at this rate for the rest of Buzz's career, it's going to be concerning.
Can we agree on that?
Quote from: 2002MUalum on July 08, 2010, 10:46:42 AM
I forgot to mention Riley, but that's not Buzz's fault either.
A fanboy (imo) is somebody who rationalizes every move the coach or school makes.
Buzz is very good coach and I'm very pleased with the results so far. But, that doesn't mean that I can't make an honest observation about some of the weird stuff Buzz has been involved with.
It's not an attack on Buzz, I still like him a lot.
Whatever dude. Your original post was lame and your continued posts make it worse..did you not read the "tweet" Mbawke sent out about Buzz about 2 months ago - "Buzz getting it done, wish I could go back." The fact you are trying to question Buzz's character or that he's a central figure in all this "weirdness," is just ridiculous. You could say he made 2 recruiting mistakes in Newbill and Roseboro..but beyond that..the rest of your plot/picture you are trying to paint is ridiculous...and completely runied your credibility. You have an agenda..and that's fine..just be real about it at least..and the agenda is to try to illustrate that Tom Crean wasn't a bad guy..or that Buzz Williams isn't any better...which is fine and within reason..but just flat out say it..don't try to insinuate..
Quote from: Ners on July 08, 2010, 10:58:35 AM
Whatever dude. Your original post was lame and your continued posts make it worse..did you not read the "tweet" Mbawke sent out about Buzz about 2 months ago - "Buzz getting it done, wish I could go back." The fact you are trying to question Buzz's character or that he's a central figure in all this "weirdness," is just ridiculous. You could say he made 2 recruiting mistakes in Newbill and Roseboro..but beyond that..the rest of your plot/picture you are trying to paint is ridiculous...and completely runied your credibility. You have an agenda..and that's fine..just be real about it at least..and the agenda is to try to illustrate that Tom Crean wasn't a bad guy..or that Buzz Williams isn't any better...which is fine and within reason..but just flat out say it..don't try to insinuate..
Would you say that Riley a recruiting mistake as well? (just for accuracy).
As for the rest of your stuff, that's not true at all. No agenda, and I'm probably just going to keep my "anti-Buzz rants" to myself in the future.
Sorry for the mild thread-jack everybody.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on July 08, 2010, 10:46:42 AM
I forgot to mention Riley, but that's not Buzz's fault either.
A fanboy (imo) is somebody who rationalizes every move the coach or school makes.
Buzz is very good coach and I'm very pleased with the results so far. But, that doesn't mean that I can't make an honest observation about some of the weird stuff Buzz has been involved with.
It's not an attack on Buzz, I still like him a lot.
Should those of us you consider to be "fanboys" take that as an insult or wait to see if you repeat those accusations in the future :)
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 08, 2010, 11:10:47 AM
Should those of us you consider to be "fanboys" take that as an insult or wait to see if you repeat those accusations in the future :)
Right now, it's isolated to this thread, so it's fine.
If I do it consistently in every thread, then it's a problem.
;)
QuoteI doubt MU or any school would let a player like Taylor out of his NLI if nothing changed except he suddenly had a chance to play for a better team.
Um, JMay? (At least in his mind.)
Quote from: 2002MUalum on July 08, 2010, 10:46:42 AM
I forgot to mention Riley, but that's not Buzz's fault either.
A fanboy (imo) is somebody who rationalizes every move the coach or school makes.
Buzz is very good coach and I'm very pleased with the results so far. But, that doesn't mean that I can't make an honest observation about some of the weird stuff Buzz has been involved with.
It's not an attack on Buzz, I still like him a lot.
I too am sick about Riley. Losing the most decorated 12 year old in the history of Marquette's summer camp was a hard pill to swallow. But to blame Buzz that he chose to follow his Daddy down to Bloomington is a bit much. Good news is that he (Riley Crean) is telling anyone who will listen he's unhappy and considering a transfer. Hope Buzz keeps a spot open.
Quote from: goodgreatgrand on July 08, 2010, 10:17:06 AM
Im not suggesting you are wrong, but I am curious who the coaches that oversign are. If there are "many" that do it every year, then who were some of the coaches that did it last year?
I don't pretend to know each roster movement of the 300-some DI colleges.
But of a couple of other teams I vaguely follow I know Mark Turgeon at A&M and Anthony Grant at Alabama have oversigned.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 08, 2010, 11:22:44 AM
I too am sick about Riley. Losing the most decorated 12 year old in the history of Marquette's summer camp was a hard pill to swallow. But to blame Buzz that he chose to follow his Daddy down to Bloomington is a bit much. Good news is that he (Riley Crean) is telling anyone who will listen he's unhappy and considering a transfer. Hope Buzz keeps a spot open.
Crap. I meant Montrele Clark.
I'm an idiot.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 08, 2010, 10:01:27 AM
Tom Crean
Correct, you are.
To the best of my knowledge, nobody's thrown a potted plant at Buzz lately. And I Can't seem to recall him taking to Twitter to make thinly veiled acusations against the head coach of a conference rival.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 07, 2010, 01:50:41 PM
Bingo. I'd guess Chicos has at minimum a couple of thousand posts "judging" Buzz since he was hired and the vast majority of them are decidedly negative. He thinks that when he adds a "but I really like Buzz" or a "I think Buzz is doing a great job so far" to a post ripping him it evens things out. Just as he thinks adding a "sure TC can be a jerk" to a soliloquey calling for TC's canonization it proves he's no longer gaga over his boy.
This whole DJ Newbill situation is exhibit A. Don't get me wrong. Buzz certainly owns blame here. Offering a scholarship you may not have (even if the recipient is made aware) is the wrong way to do business. But at least the athletic department and Buzz are admitting it's their decision that DJ won't be coming to MU. Crean did the same thing with Damian Saunders in 2006, then washed his hands ala Pontius Pilate as he had the admissions office do his dirty work for him. That Chicos is apoplectic over Buzz "ruining a kids life" (can you say hyperbole) but unquestioning of TC says it all.
Again, I'm not saying that because Crean was as big or a bigger creep in a similiar situation it excuses Buzz. And while I happen to think outrage is an over the top reaction in this case I won't quibble with those who honestly feel it (MUSF, 3 Mers, etc). I won't, however, accept it from someone who didn't even take pause over the whole Saunders fiasco.
And you would be decidedly wrong, as usual. Look it up
"Las Vegas has currently taken the over/unders on all these categories "off the board. Heavy action on all the "overs"."
Still nothing, I'm so disappointed.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on July 08, 2010, 10:52:39 AM
Let me be more clear:
None of this stuff is damning evidence for anything. I'm not trying to prove anything to anybody.
But, if "stuff" like this happens at this rate for the rest of Buzz's career, it's going to be concerning.
Can we agree on that?
Sure, we can agree on that, but that's like agreeing that cancer is bad and that we all want clean air and water. Who wouldn't agree with that? The problem is the insinuation that Buzz has done something unethical when there is NO evidence in the cases cited that Buzz had done anything of the sort. But if he does.....
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 08, 2010, 12:43:12 PM
And you would be decidedly wrong, as usual. Look it up
If you can reference 40 - 50 of your posts on Dodds or anywhere else you were posting in August of 2006 saying things like Tom Crean ruined Damian Saunders life I'll gladly apologize. But since you were still claiming very recently (until you were busted by Tom Crean's own quotes on the subject) that Saunders was denied admission due to a drug arrest I doubt you had much outrage back in 2006.
Quote from: ATWizJr on July 08, 2010, 01:06:49 PM
Sure, we can agree on that, but that's like agreeing that cancer is bad and that we all want clean air and water. Who wouldn't agree with that? The problem is the insinuation that Buzz has done something unethical when there is NO evidence in the cases cited that Buzz had done anything of the sort. But if he does.....
+1000
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 08, 2010, 01:08:15 PM
If you can reference 40 - 50 of your posts on Dodds or anywhere else you were posting in August of 2006 saying things like Tom Crean ruined Damian Saunders life I'll gladly apologize. But since you were still claiming very recently (until you were busted by Tom Crean's own quotes on the subject) that Saunders was denied admission due to a drug arrest I doubt you had much outrage back in 2006.
Nope....I probably can't....plus I can't get into my Dodds account and haven't been able to for years. As I also stated earlier today, it's entirely possible that I applauded the Saunders move or maybe had no opinion on it whatsoever, I don't recall. AND, I said, after watching what Crean started (with this oversigning crap) and Buzz continuing it, we shouldn't be doing it any longer. People's opinions can change...right? People can see the results of an action that looked benign originally but turned out bad, right? Or are people stuck with their positions for life, please let me know.
This isn't a Buzz thing Lenny, this is a Marquette thing. Marquette University should not be doing this, period. Whether it's Crean or Buzz or anyone else. Some conferences don't even allow oversigning. And there are teams within conferences that allow it, that have the integrity not to allow it, yet they still perform at a high level.
There are only two reasons to oversign players, and neither of them put Marquette or any institution in a good light.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on July 08, 2010, 11:56:11 AM
Crap. I meant Montrele Clark.
I'm an idiot.
Yes, you are...
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 08, 2010, 11:22:44 AM
I too am sick about Riley. Losing the most decorated 12 year old in the history of Marquette's summer camp was a hard pill to swallow. But to blame Buzz that he chose to follow his Daddy down to Bloomington is a bit much. Good news is that he (Riley Crean) is telling anyone who will listen he's unhappy and considering a transfer. Hope Buzz keeps a spot open.
Hilarious. Riley did win the MVP of Marquette's summer camp, correct? Are we in his Final Five, or is has he ruled Marquette out?
Quote from: ATWizJr on July 08, 2010, 01:06:49 PM
Sure, we can agree on that, but that's like agreeing that cancer is bad and that we all want clean air and water. Who wouldn't agree with that? The problem is the insinuation that Buzz has done something unethical when there is NO evidence in the cases cited that Buzz had done anything of the sort. But if he does.....
NO evidence? Sure, if you throw out all accounts by the other party involved. I think it's a wild stretch to say NO evidence.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 08, 2010, 01:32:22 PM
NO evidence? Sure, if you throw out all accounts by the other party involved. I think it's a wild stretch to say NO evidence.
Let it go Chicos, let it go. The poster was referring to MU2002 original post which outlined about 7 ridiculous scenarios that involve Buzz and "weirdness." 6 of the 7 were a joke. This latest scenario with Newbill can be viewed skeptically, and as shady - based on the story told by the other party..ASSUMING it is 100% true (which it most likely is not). That said, even if IWB's account is 100% true, I..like most Buzz hardcore supporters here...hope we don't do this type of thing again.
Quote from: Ners on July 08, 2010, 01:54:53 PM
Let it go Chicos, let it go. The poster was referring to MU2002 original post which outlined about 7 ridiculous scenarios that involve Buzz and "weirdness." 6 of the 7 were a joke. This latest scenario with Newbill can be viewed skeptically, and as shady - based on the story told by the other party..ASSUMING it is 100% true (which it most likely is not). That said, even if IWB's account is 100% true, I..like most Buzz hardcore supporters here...hope we don't do this type of thing again.
Chicos - Ners is correct. If you reread the posts there were like 7 instances cited. Those are the instances to which I am referring.
Quote from: Ners on July 08, 2010, 01:54:53 PM
Let it go Chicos, let it go. The poster was referring to MU2002 original post which outlined about 7 ridiculous scenarios that involve Buzz and "weirdness." 6 of the 7 were a joke. This latest scenario with Newbill can be viewed skeptically, and as shady - based on the story told by the other party..ASSUMING it is 100% true (which it most likely is not). That said, even if IWB's account is 100% true, I..like most Buzz hardcore supporters here...hope we don't do this type of thing again.
Amen.
But, really, you should be the last person on this board ever to utter the worlds "let it go".
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 08, 2010, 01:17:29 PM
Nope....I probably can't....plus I can't get into my Dodds account and haven't been able to for years. As I also stated earlier today, it's entirely possible that I applauded the Saunders move or maybe had no opinion on it whatsoever, I don't recall. AND, I said, after watching what Crean started (with this oversigning crap) and Buzz continuing it, we shouldn't be doing it any longer. People's opinions can change...right? People can see the results of an action that looked benign originally but turned out bad, right? Or are people stuck with their positions for life, please let me know.
This isn't a Buzz thing Lenny, this is a Marquette thing. Marquette University should not be doing this, period. Whether it's Crean or Buzz or anyone else. Some conferences don't even allow oversigning. And there are teams within conferences that allow it, that have the integrity not to allow it, yet they still perform at a high level.
There are only two reasons to oversign players, and neither of them put Marquette or any institution in a good light.
Fair enough. This is a sober and reasoned reply. A philosophical discussion on whether Marquette should participate in the legal practice referred to as over signing would be a good one. But that's not what all this mess has been mostly about. It's been mostly about whether Buzz Williams has the integrity to lead the MU basketball program. If I believed (like you do) that DJ Newbill and his camp was blindsided by the events of last week, I would be calling for Buzz's head. I just don't think that's the direction that a fair and logical reading of the evidence leads one.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 08, 2010, 02:12:15 PM
But, really, you should be the last person on this board ever to utter the worlds "let it go".
Respectully, the feeling is mutual. I do admire the tenacity with which you defend your positions, though I would appreciate you acknowledging on occasion..when you are in the wrong. Even I do that Chicos...and i think you can too. Just Do It Chicos. Just Do It!!
Quote from: ATWizJr on July 08, 2010, 02:02:39 PM
Chicos - Ners is correct. If you reread the posts there were like 7 instances cited. Those are the instances to which I am referring.
I cited those instances, and in hindsight, I really should have just kept my thoughts to myself.
I didn't know I would ruffle so many feathers and cause drama.
The next time something "weird" happens at MU, I won't say a thing.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on July 08, 2010, 02:59:11 PM
I cited those instances, and in hindsight, I really should have just kept my thoughts to myself.
I didn't know I would ruffle so many feathers and cause drama.
The next time something "weird" happens at MU, I won't say a thing.
You are a stand-up guy, and I retract my idiot comment from earlier. Time will tell how things play out..but think Buzz deserves the benefit of the doubt. As I said in the Chicos reply..even hard core Buzz supporters like myself, hope something like what happened with the Newbill recruitment doesn't happen again...
This is great guys. Let's all just hug it out.
Quote from: Litehouse on July 08, 2010, 03:07:24 PM
This is great guys. Let's all just hug it out.
As in "hug it out b*tch"