MUScoop

Since I absolutely thrive upon putting the cart about two miles in front of the horse, I had a thought this morning about the Gardner signing... is he the missing piece?

Consider this: You have an absolute beast coming in who has size and skill (Gardner).  You have another big in Otule who, if he is progressing as many have said, will be a solid contributor on at least the defensive end.  Jae may very well be Lazar 2.0 if he can score on demand.  Blue and Cadougan will be a two-headed monster at the point (and 2), each with a different skill set.  DJO is, well... DJO (need I say more?).  Give these guys a full year to get it together, and what happens after that?

In 2011-12, MU's is going to return a defensive C, two PF's who can score, two guys who can run the point and penetrate, and a threat from downtown.  Not to mention a bench of further refined talent, and possibly another impact freshman or two.

Is the ceiling high enough to make a return trip to Nola in 2012, or is Buzz still missing a few pieces?

Take off the Blue and Gold colored glasses and put down the Kool-Aid.

I guess we will have to wait and see how next year unfolds. There are two many unknowns:
1. Will Otule stay healthy and can he handle the BEast
2. Gardner has the size, but can he run the floor and dominate down low--or will he be too slow?
3. Cadougan will be a major key: has he completely recovered and can he run the point in BEast?
4. How good will Blue be--not sure after an up and down senior year; also not sure point is his best position.

One thing we can be sure of: Butler and DJO will excel; still need to see how Crowder fares; and we will have plenty of depth for a change, without much of a drop off at any position, except the point, unless Blue can handle that position backing Caddy

Right now, I would say that most of the pieces are there, but PG needs to solidify, and Center has possibilities, but how will they fare against major competition?

A 3 star center does not push MU over the top to the Final Four.  Gardner is a project, Otule is a project, Mbao is a project.  

Contender for a double bye in the Big East Tourney.  

Quote from: Benny B on May 04, 2010, 09:08:14 AM
Since I absolutely thrive upon putting the cart about two miles in front of the horse, I had a thought this morning about the Gardner signing... is he the missing piece?

I'm not that optimistic about Gardner.  I don't follow recruiting too closely, but when I searched Scout/Rivals it looked like USF and MU were the only two BCS schools that recruited him.  I'm not sure that translates to him being a beast next year.  I do think Buzz is putting together multiple recruiting classes that are full of talent and are now starting to be more balanced.  I'm excited for MU's future (minus the conference realignments), but not too optimistic that this years team will be much better than next years team.  I think the BEAST was down last year, and it worked out well for MU.

Not too excited about Gardner. If we can smear the bball with barbeque sauce, then we might have something. If he went to a big10 school, it might have made more sense since pace would be a better fit. I cant remember too many centers in the BE that couldnt run with their team (Blair, maybe). Guys this big never hold up for 4 years - knees will be shot.

I think we have the roster to contend for a top five Big East place for the next four years. It's a level of success the last guy established. It's a level of success the current guy has established. It's a level of success that we should expect to be in contention for.

For a program like MU to win the Big East, or even finish top two or three with ties, it will take something very, very special. There are just too many established programs/coaches that can and will beat us out. It may be above our station.

Further down the road, we all know the NCAAs are 70% draw and 30% talent. We've had favorable draws the last two seasons and done little with it. Let's get to the second weekend under Buzz first, then discuss the chances of a Final Four which would validate the talent on roster.

Quote from: HoopsMalone on May 04, 2010, 09:25:52 AM
A 3 star center does not push MU over the top to the Final Four.  Gardner is a project, Otule is a project, Mbao is a project.  

Contender for a double bye in the Big East Tourney.  

This.  An absolute beast?  Maybe when you're staring at 6'9" 300 lbs. on the street, but not on the court, yet.  If he puts up Dwight Burke senior numbers (2.8 ppg, 3.7 rpg, decent interior defense) by his junior year I would be pleased.  Any earlier would be a surprise.

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 04, 2010, 09:12:02 AM
Take off the Blue and Gold colored glasses and put down the Kool-Aid.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.  I'm not proclaiming that Jesus has risen here... I'm simply asking if the ceiling is high enough.  At some point, grit and effort is going to give way to talent and size.

My question is whether MU now has the requisite size and talent, call it the "tangibles" if you will, to make a FF run in two years.

In other words, if they develop, if they perform, if they give it their all, if they play as a team, could this team make a deep tourney run?  Because it certainly seems that MU did all four of these things this year and still wasn't good enough to make it out of the first round.

• If Jimmy Butler continues his rise and turns into Lazar (18 ppg, 7 rpg) and contends for First Team All-Big East...
  
• If Darius Johnson-Odom can take over as a dominant scorer both inside and out with consistency and average 20 ppg...
  
• If Jae Crowder is indeed the second coming of Lazar, and can average 15 ppg/6 rpg as a junior, likely being named Newcomer of the Year in the BEast...
  
• If all the hype about Chris Otule isn't just hype, and he can play 30 mpg, run the floor, defend, and rebound...
  
• If Junior Cadougan can step in to play 30 mpg with a 2.5 assist-to-turnover ratio...
  
• If two of either Joe Fulce, Erik Williams, and Jamail Jones can provide solid minutes off the bench to take the pressure off Butler and Crowder, while providing some scoring and quality defending...
  
• If one of Vander Blue, Dwight Buycks, or DJ Newbill can prove to have an efficient enough handle to play 8-10 mpg at the point...
  
• If two of either Blue, Buycks, and Newbill can provide solid minutes off the bench, including legitimate shooting depth for late game situations and not turning the ball over...
  
• If Mbao and Gardner can combine for 8-10 minutes off the bench of solid defense and rebounding...
  
  IF all of those things come to pass, then yes, I think we can start thinking about a possible Final Four run. I think we need a bench that reliably goes to 9-10 deep, we need Butler and DJO to both be candidates for First Team All-Big East, and we need two more players who will average 10 ppg, likely Crowder and someone off the bench.
  
  The other key factor is to contend for a title (which pretty much every Final Four team is doing) you generally need those three star performers, the three NBA level talents. Crean had that with Wade, Diener, and Novak. I'd say that Buzz even had that last year with Matthews, Hayward, and McNeal, though the fourth man, James, proved key when he went down with injury and the team collapsed. Could DJO morph into Ben Gordon? Could Vander Blue develop into our next Dwyane Wade? Could Butler or Crowder prove to have that necessary punch to put us over the top? The answer to all these questions, and to all of the ifs above, are yes. But unless they all come up yes this year, I think we should focus on the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 as reasonable targets.

I love all this optimism, but this team is going to have to have MAJOR contributions from first year players to even make it back to the NCAA tournament.  If Buzz can get us in the tourney next year, he should be a COY candidate (again). 

This team can be a contender in two or three years.  Maybe we should red-shirt Butler!   ;-)

What I do like is that Buzz has so many more options than he did last year.  We have added size and length without seemingly sacrificing our outside scoring.  After next year we can go big with Otule, Gardner and Crowder on the front line, or we can go small with a deeper guard rotation.  This is a much more versatile roster than we have seen recently.  I know things don't always pan out how you expect, but I am optimistic that we are going to be better able to match up than we were the past two years.

Quote from: downtown85 on May 04, 2010, 11:24:20 AM
I love all this optimism, but this team is going to have to have MAJOR contributions from first year players to even make it back to the NCAA tournament.  If Buzz can get us in the tourney next year, he should be a COY candidate (again). 

This team can be a contender in two or three years.  Maybe we should red-shirt Butler!   ;-)

I think we'll make it back to the Dance, but you're dead on there. My guess is we'll be looking at that 4-7 range, which is why targets like the Sweet 16 are better than the Final Four. I know that the 2003 team did kind of come out of nowhere (Jackson, Novak's shooting, Wade suddenly being a lottery pick) but I think it's best to hold off that kind of optimism until we've seen them run up an 18-2 record and are ranked in the top 10 after 20 games. If, on the other hand, they're 13-7 and looking like a bubble team, we haven't over-invested.

Quote from: brewcity77 on May 04, 2010, 11:13:26 AM

• If Jimmy Butler continues his rise and turns into Lazar (18 ppg, 7 rpg) and contends for First Team All-Big East...
  
• If Darius Johnson-Odom can take over as a dominant scorer both inside and out with consistency and average 20 ppg...
  
• If Jae Crowder is indeed the second coming of Lazar, and can average 15 ppg/6 rpg as a junior, likely being named Newcomer of the Year in the BEast...
  
• If all the hype about Chris Otule isn't just hype, and he can play 30 mpg, run the floor, defend, and rebound...
  
• If Junior Cadougan can step in to play 30 mpg with a 2.5 assist-to-turnover ratio...
  
• If two of either Joe Fulce, Erik Williams, and Jamail Jones can provide solid minutes off the bench to take the pressure off Butler and Crowder, while providing some scoring and quality defending...
  
• If one of Vander Blue, Dwight Buycks, or DJ Newbill can prove to have an efficient enough handle to play 8-10 mpg at the point...
  
• If two of either Blue, Buycks, and Newbill can provide solid minutes off the bench, including legitimate shooting depth for late game situations and not turning the ball over...
  
• If Mbao and Gardner can combine for 8-10 minutes off the bench of solid defense and rebounding...
  
  IF all of those things come to pass, then yes, I think we can start thinking about a possible Final Four run. I think we need a bench that reliably goes to 9-10 deep, we need Butler and DJO to both be candidates for First Team All-Big East, and we need two more players who will average 10 ppg, likely Crowder and someone off the bench.
  
  The other key factor is to contend for a title (which pretty much every Final Four team is doing) you generally need those three star performers, the three NBA level talents. Crean had that with Wade, Diener, and Novak. I'd say that Buzz even had that last year with Matthews, Hayward, and McNeal, though the fourth man, James, proved key when he went down with injury and the team collapsed. Could DJO morph into Ben Gordon? Could Vander Blue develop into our next Dwyane Wade? Could Butler or Crowder prove to have that necessary punch to put us over the top? The answer to all these questions, and to all of the ifs above, are yes. But unless they all come up yes this year, I think we should focus on the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 as reasonable targets.

As soon as I saw the title of this thread, I had the exact same thoughts as brewcity.

If everything, and I mean everything breaks MUs way the next two years, yeah sure they are contenders.  More reastically I think we have a good foundation for solid success over the next several seasons...with sucess being defined as competitive tournament teams.

If we add to this foundation (think 5 star talent in '11 and '12 classes - c'mon Dawson), then I think about being a contender.

Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on May 04, 2010, 09:30:25 AM
I think we have the roster to contend for a top five Big East place for the next four years. It's a level of success the last guy established. It's a level of success the current guy has established. It's a level of success that we should expect to be in contention for.

For a program like MU to win the Big East, or even finish top two or three with ties, it will take something very, very special. There are just too many established programs/coaches that can and will beat us out. It may be above our station.

Further down the road, we all know the NCAAs are 70% draw and 30% talent. We've had favorable draws the last two seasons and done little with it. Let's get to the second weekend under Buzz first, then discuss the chances of a Final Four which would validate the talent on roster.

Seems you have an agenda to keep Buzz on the same level as Tom Crean?  Not sure that getting the Pac 10 champion as an 11 seed would qualify as a favorable draw.  Not sure playing a deeep Mizzou team in the 2nd round of the 2009 NCAA was favorable, particularily not for a team that went 7 deep due to poor recruiting by the previous regime.  Not sure that the 2009-2010 team even making the NCAA tourney could have been expected, after being predicted for 12th place in Big East.  I suspect Buzz will be able to take MU deeper into the NCAA tourney consistently, than was the predecessor..who..in his 9 years got us to 1 Final Four, 1 Round of 32, and 3 first round defeats.  Let's get to 9 season under Buzz and then discuss how his performance has compared with his predecessor.

Ners I think that is pretty much what he has said.  Too early to judge based on two disappointing performances in the tournament so far.  Don't have such a knee-jerk reaction whenever anyone criticizes Buzz.

I think brewcity77 hit on every major point.
In my opinion, what it comes down to is IF Jones, EWill or a future recruit can replace Butler's talent and if Buzz can recruit at the level or better than the current juniors and seniors, then yes with some experience we should start considering our team a 'contender' for a for a few byes in the BE Tourney and maybe even a banner.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 04, 2010, 01:34:12 PM
Ners I think that is pretty much what he has said.  Too early to judge based on two disappointing performances in the tournament so far.  Don't have such a knee-jerk reaction whenever anyone criticizes Buzz.

As you know I'm a big Buzz fan.  Very true.  But, I wouldn't call it knee jerking to point out that Buzz has been here 2 years so far, and after just 2 years he has already matched what Tom Crean accomplished (sans a Final Four appearance) in 9 years.  Crean won 1 NCAA tourney game other than the Final Four Run in his 5 years in the tourney in his 9 years as MU coach.  My point was I suspect Buzz will get us to at least 2 or 3 Sweet 16's or Elite 8's in the next 7 years.  That will far exeed what the previous regime accomplished.

And you wrote:  "too early to judge based on two disappointing performances in the tournament so far,"   What did you expect from Buzz's two teams so far??  Did you really think we'd be in the NCAA tourney last year after the loss of the Big 3?  Did you think we'd be a Sweet 16 team without Dominic James?

I never expect much of frosh, especially down low frosh.  Any contribution will be a plus.

I just hope Otule can last a season - without yet another injury.

But in the meantime, my blue and gold colored glasses will remain in place!    ;D

Quote from: Ners link=topic=20436.msg211142#msg211142
Crean won 1 NCAA tourney game other than the Final Four Run in his 5 years in the tourney in his 9 years as MU coach.  My point was I suspect Buzz will get us to at least 2 or 3 Sweet 16's or Elite 8's in the next 7 years.  That will far exeed what the previous regime accomplished.

And you wrote:  "too early to judge based on two disappointing performances in the tournament so far,"   What did you expect from Buzz's two teams so far??  Did you really think we'd be in the NCAA tourney last year after the loss of the Big 3?  Did you think we'd be a Sweet 16 team without Dominic James?

Of course, Buzz will never bear the burden of rebuilding the 7th place CUSA team--and Crean never inherited a team with 4 of the top 10 MU scorers of all time--facts you excluded from your comparison. 

The fact of the matter is that Buzz's signature NCAA win over Utah State doesn't quite compare to Crean's 2008 win over UK (not to mention the one in 2003). 

Maybe Buzz will exceed Crean's accomplishments someday--maybe he won't.  But to say he's already accomplished it is a stretch. 

First, on the signature win front, TCs win over Kentucky in 2003 was the only time in the history of the program that Marquette has beaten a team ranked No. 1.  Even Al McGuire never managed to upset a No.1, so Buzz might never match that signature win, but he has certainly had plenty of great wins.

As far as the initial question, I've published the math on how 3-stars, 4-stars and 5-stars usually progress from year to year, and it points to about 26 wins next year, which means we might be able to get through the first weekend to the Sweet 16.  However, the two following years look very good, and certainly a deep run is a possibility.  As pointed out, 3-stars don't usually make much of a contribution until their sophomore year, but just having a wide body is so key for us that I am still thrilled about Davante.

The biggest long term factor is Vander Blue.  So much focus is on 5-stars, and they do one of three things:

1. head cases who transfer once they realize they aren't all world (doesn't sound like Vander is one of them)
2. turnout to be very good four-year players but don't quite dominate, or
3. are as good or better than advertised, and explode to dominate either their freshman, sophomore or junior year, but then leave for the NBA after that.

I believe Vander will be really good next year, but the question is (if he is a type 3 player on this list), which year will he just dominate?  If that year comes, we have enough other pieces in place that we have a real chance to make a very deep run.  BUT, that could be our only real chance, because after that year - if it happens - odds are very good Vander is in the NBA.

I like the direction of the program, but I will take exception with the statement that we had two great recruting classes in a row. They are great in numbers, but look at last year's class.

1. DJO-absolute stud
2. Buyckes-nice back up guard.
3. Cadougan-injury makes 1st year a bust.
4. Eric Williams-inability to play defense negates his scoring and rebounding ability.
5.Mbao-the best looking worst player I have ever seen. At least two mores years away from being a factor.
6. Maymon-a quitter
7.  Roseboro-a quitter

We got less than 100 points from our freshmen class and the majority of the points left after 9 games.

This has the potential to be the deepest team at MU has ever seen.   More talented than Wade, Diener, Novak, Jackson, Merrit?    Not yet.    This team HAS THE POTENTIAL (and that is all at this point) to have Buzz' ideal of 13 high majors and a 9.5 man rotation.    Any contributions from Yous or Gardner next year are gifts.    Otule (assuming health) is starting at the 5.   Fulce should get some minutes there, and the real wildcard is Williams.   If he 'gets it', he could eliminate the need for Yous or Gardner to play big minutes in conference.  

Quote from: chapman on May 04, 2010, 09:40:13 AM
This.  An absolute beast?  Maybe when you're staring at 6'9" 300 lbs. on the street, but not on the court, yet.  If he puts up Dwight Burke senior numbers (2.8 ppg, 3.7 rpg, decent interior defense) by his junior year I would be pleased.  Any earlier would be a surprise.

Pleased by 3ppg and 4rpg as a Junior? I would be willing to put heavy action down that assuming he is still around, Mbao will be able to do that this yr as a soph (assuming he averages enough minutes)

Quote from: Marquette84 on May 04, 2010, 05:13:08 PM
Of course, Buzz will never bear the burden of rebuilding the 7th place CUSA team--and Crean never inherited a team with 4 of the top 10 MU scorers of all time--facts you excluded from your comparison. 

The fact of the matter is that Buzz's signature NCAA win over Utah State doesn't quite compare to Crean's 2008 win over UK (not to mention the one in 2003). 

Maybe Buzz will exceed Crean's accomplishments someday--maybe he won't.  But to say he's already accomplished it is a stretch. 

84 - We all know you are the staunchest of staunch Tom Crean supporters - along with Chicos.  I can appreciate what Tom Crean did in his time at MU, but the reality is take away D-Wade and his accomplishments would have placed him a rung below Al McGuire and Kevin O'Neill.  And are you really going to argue that beating Kentucky in 2008 was a signature win??  Kentucky was what..an 11 that year?  Weren't we a 6 that lost to Stanford the 3 in Round 2 in 2008?  And keep in mind we had D James + Barro that year.  Other than the Final Four team, Tom Crean's performance in the NCAA tourney was pretty poor.  The fact Buzz got us to the tourney this past season is a huge accomplishment - considering what was left at MU after Crean left.

Quote from: Ners on May 04, 2010, 09:15:24 PM
84 - We all know you are the staunchest of staunch Tom Crean supporters - along with Chicos.  I can appreciate what Tom Crean did in his time at MU, but the reality is take away D-Wade and his accomplishments would have placed him a rung below Al McGuire and Kevin O'Neill. 

First, I love your one-sided application of the "If not for Dwyane Wade  . . ." logic.

By this logic, Tony Miller is the only reason O'Neill isn't a peg below Bob Dukiet.  Without Miller, O'Neill managed to coach a team with Jim McIlvaine, Damon Key, Robb Logtermann, Trevor Powell, and Ron Curry to an 11-18 record in the mighty MCC. Tell you what--compare Crean's record without Wade to O'Neill's without Miller, and its not even close.

BTW, I wonder what Buzz's record at MU would be without DJO or Butler?  Probably a hell of a lot worse that we actually had this year. 

Quote from: Ners on May 04, 2010, 09:15:24 PM

And are you really going to argue that beating Kentucky in 2008 was a signature win?? 
Kentucky was what..an 11 that year?  Weren't we a 6 that lost to Stanford the 3 in Round 2 in 2008? 

No.  I'm said that Utah State was Buzz's signature NCAA win.  In fact, his only win.

I compared Buzz's signature win to Crean's rather pedestrian win over Kentucky in 2008:  Which was more impressive?   Here's my point--that signature NCAA win of Buzz's not only doesn't measure up to beating #1 Kentucky in 2003--it doesn't even measure up to beating 2008 Kentucky! 

So your claim that Buzz has already accomplished more is false.  Not only has he not duplicated the Final Four--he hasn't surpassed 2008.  And then lets compare this year to Crean's 2008.  Interestingly, Washington in 2010 and Kentucky in 2008 were both 11 seeds.   Which coach won his matchup?

You claim Crean's performance in the NCAA was pretty poor?  Fine.  If beating an 11 then losing to a 3 on a last second prayer is "poor", what do you call losing to the 11 in the first round? 

Quote from: Ners on May 04, 2010, 09:15:24 PM
And keep in mind we had D James + Barro that year.  Other than the Final Four team, Tom Crean's performance in the NCAA tourney was pretty poor.  The fact Buzz got us to the tourney this past season is a huge accomplishment - considering what was left at MU after Crean left.

So just how do we consider what Crean left at MU given that they were dispersed to Miami-Data/Minnesota, Kansas, Iowa State, and Northeastern after Crean left? 

So Crean had Barro and James.  Buzz had Butler and Buycks and DJO.  I'd call that at least even if not advantage to Buzz.  I mean honestly--you must be the only person on earth who would put forth the argument that Barro was a better player than Butler and DJO. 

Why do you keep saying it was such a "huge accomplishment" to make the tournament this year?  Did you forget the fact that we reloaded with two first team JUCOs from 2009 year, and a 2nd teamer and honorable mention from 2008?  Add in a top 10 all-time scorer returning, and an underrrated PG who happened to put up a 2:1 assist to turnover ratio in major minutes against five the 8 best teams in the previous season. 

You seem to want a double standard--DJO, Butler and Buycks are examples of the outstanding talent Buzz recruits. . . .until someone wants to set expectations based on them, you know, living up to their reputations. . . .THEEENNNN those same outstanding recruits turn into stumblebums who actually suck so bad that its only a coaching miracle could get us to the NCAA tournament.

You can't have it both ways.  You're arguing that players like DJO and Buycks are simultaneously outstanding (supporting the "strong recruiting" argument) and lousy (to support the "winning was a huge accomplishment" argument). 

I'm going to say no only because I know how competitive Buzz is and how he loves to prove the "experts" wrong.

Unlike the chronic negativity of this board that thought we'd win 6 big east games last year I believed in last years team and I believe that Buzz is building something very special that will make a run at a national title over the next 2-3 years and make a huge statement to the nation as payback for the Big Ten's greed in trying to destroy the Big East and Marquette.

Butler almost did it with half the talent Marquette will have....Buzz is a future legend so get ready for a great/fun ride. 

Quote from: Benny B on May 04, 2010, 09:08:14 AM
Since I absolutely thrive upon putting the cart about two miles in front of the horse, I had a thought this morning about the Gardner signing... is he the missing piece?

Consider this: You have an absolute beast coming in who has size and skill (Gardner).  You have another big in Otule who, if he is progressing as many have said, will be a solid contributor on at least the defensive end.  Jae may very well be Lazar 2.0 if he can score on demand.  Blue and Cadougan will be a two-headed monster at the point (and 2), each with a different skill set.  DJO is, well... DJO (need I say more?).  Give these guys a full year to get it together, and what happens after that?

In 2011-12, MU's is going to return a defensive C, two PF's who can score, two guys who can run the point and penetrate, and a threat from downtown.  Not to mention a bench of further refined talent, and possibly another impact freshman or two.

Is the ceiling high enough to make a return trip to Nola in 2012, or is Buzz still missing a few pieces?

The problem with this kind of unrealistic thinking is you'll get sorely disappointed when he performs like a three-star recruit. In other words, you will not give him a chance.

Then we will have 2000 thousand threads next spring about how Buzz needs to recruit big.

Quote from: Ners on May 04, 2010, 02:05:55 PM
As you know I'm a big Buzz fan.  Very true.  But, I wouldn't call it knee jerking to point out that Buzz has been here 2 years so far, and after just 2 years he has already matched what Tom Crean accomplished (sans a Final Four appearance) in 9 years. 

That's a pretty big "sans."  Mike McCarthy has accomplished everything that Mike Holmgren has (sans a Super Bowl).

Programs get built over time.  Each and every year that a Buzz coached team performs well, the stands fill a little more, the wins come a little easier and the recruiting improves.  Could everything come together under a great Vander year in say 2011-12? Sure.  But that takes lots falling into place. 

Realistically, Buzz is building a double bye program.  Once you do that, you get a shot at more 5 star kids.  Once you are a relatively consistant double bye, a Final 4 run is a reasonable possibility. 

Me, I'm pleased with the strong prospect for NCAA every year with a good shot at Sweet 16.  If we do that, the program is in great historical shape. 

Quote from: Marquette84 on May 04, 2010, 11:52:19 PM

I compared Buzz's signature win to Crean's rather pedestrian win over Kentucky in 2008:  Which was more impressive?   Here's my point--that signature NCAA win of Buzz's not only doesn't measure up to beating #1 Kentucky in 2003--it doesn't even measure up to beating 2008 Kentucky! 

So your claim that Buzz has already accomplished more is false.  Not only has he not duplicated the Final Four--he hasn't surpassed 2008.  And then lets compare this year to Crean's 2008.  Interestingly, Washington in 2010 and Kentucky in 2008 were both 11 seeds.   Which coach won his matchup?


84 - Your logic is so flawed I'm not going to try to even justify all the points you try to make.  Bottom line is Tom Crean was lucked into a Final Four with a once a century player - Wade.  Hell Tom Crean got beat by Tulsa with DWade in 2002 as a 5 seed.  Tom Crean also got beat by Michigan State and Alabama in the first rounds of the tourney.  Just as Buzz won as a 6 against Utah State, Tom Crean won as a 6 against Kentucky.  Both teams lost to the 3 seed in the next round in heartbreakers.

And Buzz didn't have DJO or Buycks or Dominic James on his team in 2009 NCAA - whereas Crean had the Big 3 + Barro and still couldn't get it done against Stanford.

At the end of the day, you will always find reasons to defend Tom Crean.  I have no problem with placing him as on par with Kevin O"Neill as the 3rd best coaches in MU history.  Buzz will definitely rank as MU's best coach since McGuire if not already, within a couple of years.

Quote from: brewcity77 on May 04, 2010, 11:13:26 AM

• If Jimmy Butler continues his rise and turns into Lazar (18 ppg, 7 rpg) and contends for First Team All-Big East...
  
• If Darius Johnson-Odom can take over as a dominant scorer both inside and out with consistency and average 20 ppg...
  
• If Jae Crowder is indeed the second coming of Lazar, and can average 15 ppg/6 rpg as a junior, likely being named Newcomer of the Year in the BEast...
  
• If all the hype about Chris Otule isn't just hype, and he can play 30 mpg, run the floor, defend, and rebound...
  
• If Junior Cadougan can step in to play 30 mpg with a 2.5 assist-to-turnover ratio...
  
• If two of either Joe Fulce, Erik Williams, and Jamail Jones can provide solid minutes off the bench to take the pressure off Butler and Crowder, while providing some scoring and quality defending...
  
• If one of Vander Blue, Dwight Buycks, or DJ Newbill can prove to have an efficient enough handle to play 8-10 mpg at the point...
  
• If two of either Blue, Buycks, and Newbill can provide solid minutes off the bench, including legitimate shooting depth for late game situations and not turning the ball over...
  
• If Mbao and Gardner can combine for 8-10 minutes off the bench of solid defense and rebounding...
  
  IF all of those things come to pass, then yes, I think we can start thinking about a possible Final Four run. I think we need a bench that reliably goes to 9-10 deep, we need Butler and DJO to both be candidates for First Team All-Big East, and we need two more players who will average 10 ppg, likely Crowder and someone off the bench.
  
  The other key factor is to contend for a title (which pretty much every Final Four team is doing) you generally need those three star performers, the three NBA level talents. Crean had that with Wade, Diener, and Novak. I'd say that Buzz even had that last year with Matthews, Hayward, and McNeal, though the fourth man, James, proved key when he went down with injury and the team collapsed. Could DJO morph into Ben Gordon? Could Vander Blue develop into our next Dwyane Wade? Could Butler or Crowder prove to have that necessary punch to put us over the top? The answer to all these questions, and to all of the ifs above, are yes. But unless they all come up yes this year, I think we should focus on the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 as reasonable targets.

Love our chances!

Quote from: Ners on May 05, 2010, 09:53:39 PM

Bottom line is Tom Crean was lucked into a Final Four with a once a century player - Wade. 

Quote

Again with the "if not for Dwaye Wade . . . ." argument.

I wonder if Al wins a national championship without Butch Lee?
I wonder if O'Neill gets to an NCAA tournament without Tony Miller?
I wonder if Buzz beats Utah State without inheriting 4 of MU's top 10 leading scorers of all time?

We don't ask those questions of any other coach--just Crean.

Just curious--are you going to turn on Buzz if Vander Blue turns into the next Dwyane Wade?  If Blue is a special player and takes us to a Final Four, can we expect to see you make the same "Buzz lucked into a Final Four with Blue" argument?   

I hardly think so.  So why do you do so with Crean?

Quote from: Ners on May 05, 2010, 09:53:39 PM

Hell Tom Crean got beat by Tulsa with DWade in 2002 as a 5 seed.  Tom Crean also got beat by Michigan State and Alabama in the first rounds of the tourney.  Just as Buzz won as a 6 against Utah State, Tom Crean won as a 6 against Kentucky.  Both teams lost to the 3 seed in the next round in heartbreakers.

And none of this refutes the point that barely beating Utah State in 2009 isn't nearly as impressive as the shellacking put on Kentucky the year before.  Not to mention getting to the Final Four.

Therefore, your logic that Buzz has already accomplished more is simply not true--its wishful thinking on your part.

Quote from: Ners on May 05, 2010, 09:53:39 PM
At the end of the day, you will always find reasons to defend Tom Crean.  I have no problem with placing him as on par with Kevin O"Neill as the 3rd best coaches in MU history.  Buzz will definitely rank as MU's best coach since McGuire if not already, within a couple of years.

Your comment that single NCAA victory (over Utah State) qualifies Buzz as the 2nd best coach in Marquette history is laughable.

Lets call it what it is: You don't like Crean and wish Buzz's accomplishments were more impressive because you like Buzz better.  But wishing it to be true doesn't make it true.

By any objective basis, Buzz's level of accomplishment doesn't match Crean's yet.  Maybe someday he'll get there--but not yet.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we put a shellacking on Kentucky in Crean's last year. I thought it was a close game with Crawford (I think Crawford) having one heck of a game against us and we finally got it to a comfortable margin in the last minute, if we even did that, but I remember being awfully nervous that game.

As for always saying "If Crean didn't have D-Wade", I can't say much about the other coaches, but Al's greatest accomplishment was the National Championship, but there were a lot of great years in there, including another Final Four run. I think the discrediting Crean due to the D-Wade year is that we never really got close to that level any other years. There were multiple first round exits. Our best finish outside of that year is the second round, including following up the Final Four with two NITs. I think if Crean got us to a Sweet Sixteen or two in addition to the Final Four, nobody would use any stat that started with "well outside of the 03 year." Could be wrong, but just my opinion on the matter.

I love Buzz and I think he will take us higher than Crean did more consistently. It is crazy hard to get to a Final Four so he may never reach that (many very good coaches don't), but I think Buzz can get us to being in the Sweet Sixteen once every few years with the chance for a run. Crean's tenure is over, we know what he has done. Buzz is just starting and seems to be a talented coach. People are excited about the unknown because there are the possibilities for greatness. Granted Buzz could flame out in a few years, but that potential for greatness excites people and may lead them to overvalue Buzz's contributions so far.

Flat out, it's too early to compare Crean and Williams in regards to their respective resumes. Crean did accomplish the Final Four with Wade, but he also sent four of his recruited players to the NBA (if you include Matthews, whom he did bring in). Now there was a lot of disappointment with Crean as well, most notably around March and the following months (what with the annual "where's he going" rumors) but at the end of the day, he put us back on the map. His Final Four was worth more than all the combined appearances (Sweet 16 included) since the early 1980s combined.

And then he left. And let's be honest, while we might have been a bit upset at the way he went, were we really that sad to see him go? In the two years since, we have seen Buzz take us to a top ten ranking for much of the season and a second round appearance, and a team that wasn't expected to produce much showed that it had more talent than most people gave credit for and reach the tournament.

So now we are in a position where we are on the map, and for the most part, have a coach we like and respect. So what if it took us two guys to get there? Constantly griping about Crean will get us nowhere. He came, he did some good, he left. Now Buzz is here, hopefully he will do more good, and in 5 years or so we can start to fairly compare the two of them.

EDIT: And regarding the Kentucky win, they narrowed the gap to 2 points with 24 seconds to play, but Wesley Matthews hit 8 free throws in the final minute to put the game away. The 8 point margin looks good, but it was by no means a shellacking. And UK finished the season 18-13, and only made the tourney by winning 11 of their last 14 to get in. They weren't an incredibly underrated 11 seed, and in most years, probably wouldn't have even gotten into the Big Dance.

Quote from: Marquette84 on May 05, 2010, 11:22:44 PM

And none of this refutes the point that barely beating Utah State in 2009 isn't nearly as impressive as the shellacking put on Kentucky the year before.  Not to mention getting to the Final Four.

Therefore, your logic that Buzz has already accomplished more is simply not true--its wishful thinking on your part.


Your comment that single NCAA victory (over Utah State) qualifies Buzz as the 2nd best coach in Marquette history is laughable.

Lets call it what it is: You don't like Crean and wish Buzz's accomplishments were more impressive because you like Buzz better.  But wishing it to be true doesn't make it true.

By any objective basis, Buzz's level of accomplishment doesn't match Crean's yet.  Maybe someday he'll get there--but not yet.

84 once again you trying to defend TC is ridiculous when you make statements like the "shellacking we put on Kentucky," when we won by 8, but were up 2 with just 24 seconds.  And as for why Crean lucked into a Final Four with D-Wade..I say that because Wade was lightly recruited, Crean wasn't even his primary recruiter..Crean basically took a flyer on Wade.  A great one at that.  Vander Blue on the other hand was a consensus Top 30 recruit nationally..he should be good..and if he is..that won't surprise anyone nearly as much as what Wade did.  Who did Crean beat out for Wade's services?  Bradley?  When did Crean assemble back to back Top 20 rated recruiting classes?  Never.  In fact I don't think he ever assembled a Top 20 class in 9 years.  Buzz is 2 for 2.

And 84, Buzz is 2 for 2 in NCAA appearances.  Crean was what, 5 for 9.  If you want to compare Crean and Buzz fairly, lets judge their first 2 years..okay, maybe not fair.  But point is give Buzz 7 more years and he will have just as many, and quite possibly many more NCAA tourney wins than Crean had.  Crean won a total of 5 games in the NCAA tourney in 9 years as coach.  Buzz has to get 4 more wins in the next 7 years. 

Also would you address us losing to Tulsa, a 12 seed, when we had Dwayne Wade?  What about the shellacking we took from Michigan State - weren't we down 17-0 in that game...even with 3 of MU's top 10 scorers of all time?  Buzz got us past Utah State with Dominic James - why couldn't Tommy get us past Michigan State without Jerel?

Haha, you just compared Michigan State to Utah State.  Which one goes to a final four every other year?

Quote from: goodgreatgrand on May 04, 2010, 09:28:27 AM
Not too excited about Gardner. If we can smear the bball with barbeque sauce, then we might have something. If he went to a big10 school, it might have made more sense since pace would be a better fit. I cant remember too many centers in the BE that couldnt run with their team (Blair, maybe). Guys this big never hold up for 4 years - knees will be shot.

For God's sake no!!  Gardner is said to possess good passing skills, but your plan could turn him into the next Kevin Willis.  Remember Jesus' words regarding Willis during Jesus' time in the NBA as chronicled by The Onion.  "Kevin Willis, why has thou forsaken me?"

Quote from: Ners on May 06, 2010, 01:17:44 PM
84 once again you trying to defend TC is ridiculous when you make statements like the "shellacking we put on Kentucky," when we won by 8, but were up 2 with just 24 seconds.  And as for why Crean lucked into a Final Four with D-Wade..I say that because Wade was lightly recruited, Crean wasn't even his primary recruiter..Crean basically took a flyer on Wade.  A great one at that.  Vander Blue on the other hand was a consensus Top 30 recruit nationally..he should be good..and if he is..that won't surprise anyone nearly as much as what Wade did.  Who did Crean beat out for Wade's services?  Bradley?  When did Crean assemble back to back Top 20 rated recruiting classes?  Never.  In fact I don't think he ever assembled a Top 20 class in 9 years.  Buzz is 2 for 2.

Recruiting isn't the end game.  On floor results are.  Crean got us further than Buzz has so far.

And that Final Four team had four, top 100 recruits.  It wasn't just Wade.

Quote from: RawdogDX on May 06, 2010, 01:49:08 PM
Haha, you just compared Michigan State to Utah State.  Which one goes to a final four every other year?

Stew "The Legend" Morrill is not to be underestimated.  Ever.

Crean's ass got schooled pretty good in that 8/9 match-up vs. Izzo. Yes, I know Jerel was out with hand surgery. There were those who insisted we were worthy of a higher seed sans the injury.

Does anyone have an estimation on the win total for next year? I believe in October crackedsidewalks estimated 25. 25 is the number MU had with Rel DJ and Wes (also Zar) their last two seasons. Said that is 25 a longshot, reasonable, or expected? With all the questions lingering, does anyone know?

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 06, 2010, 02:17:46 PM

Recruiting isn't the end game.  On floor results are.  Crean got us further than Buzz has so far.

And that Final Four team had four, top 100 recruits.  It wasn't just Wade.

I have a feeling that D. Wade would have loved playing in Buzz's offense. Crean's success has a lot to do with Wade when Wade was here and the after effects of the success he had with Wade. It would be interesting to see where both MU and Crean would be today, if Wade had not shown up at MU. Remember Wade was a partial qualifier and the Big East does not allow partial qualifiers.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 06, 2010, 02:17:46 PM

Recruiting isn't the end game.  On floor results are.  Crean got us further than Buzz has so far.

And that Final Four team had four, top 100 recruits.  It wasn't just Wade.

Who were the 4 Top 100 recruits on the Final Four Team?  All I can think of is Diener, Merritt, and Novak.  Wade wasn't a Top 100 kid...which is why I posted earlier, we got lucky with him..because he was severly underrated and wasn't recruited that hard by many programs.  And I think we all can agree that without d-Wade it didn't matter a bit that we had the above Top 100 kids on the roster.  Diener saved us against Holy Cross as we barely beat them..but..he also had the benefit of being set up to shoot due to all of the playmaking of D-Wade. Same held true for Novak that year.  D-Wade's NBA accomplishments speak to his greatness.

Lastly, Tom Crean had the benefit of playing in C-USA, and by virtue of that we chalked up great records, and got better seeds in the NCAA than we've gotten as a Big East member.  We were a 5 and 3 in his first two NCAA appearances as a Conference USA school. 

Quote from: Ners on May 06, 2010, 05:13:27 PM
Who were the 4 Top 100 recruits on the Final Four Team?  All I can think of is Diener, Merritt, and Novak.  Wade wasn't a Top 100 kid...which is why I posted earlier, we got lucky with him..because he was severly underrated and wasn't recruited that hard by many programs.  And I think we all can agree that without d-Wade it didn't matter a bit that we had the above Top 100 kids on the roster.  Diener saved us against Holy Cross as we barely beat them..but..he also had the benefit of being set up to shoot due to all of the playmaking of D-Wade. Same held true for Novak that year.  D-Wade's NBA accomplishments speak to his greatness.

Lastly, Tom Crean had the benefit of playing in C-USA, and by virtue of that we chalked up great records, and got better seeds in the NCAA than we've gotten as a Big East member.  We were a 5 and 3 in his first two NCAA appearances as a Conference USA school. 

Robert Jackson.

I have no idea why fans like you want to minimize MU's biggest basketball accomplishment of the last 33 years.  I've heard it all...it was only one player...Kentucky was overrated...we played in a weak conference...  All because people don't like the coach.

It's pathetic really.

Quote from: brewcity77 on May 04, 2010, 11:13:26 AM

• If Jimmy Butler continues his rise and turns into Lazar (18 ppg, 7 rpg) and contends for First Team All-Big East...
  
• If Darius Johnson-Odom can take over as a dominant scorer both inside and out with consistency and average 20 ppg...
  
• If Jae Crowder is indeed the second coming of Lazar, and can average 15 ppg/6 rpg as a junior, likely being named Newcomer of the Year in the BEast...
  
• If all the hype about Chris Otule isn't just hype, and he can play 30 mpg, run the floor, defend, and rebound...
  
• If Junior Cadougan can step in to play 30 mpg with a 2.5 assist-to-turnover ratio...
  
• If two of either Joe Fulce, Erik Williams, and Jamail Jones can provide solid minutes off the bench to take the pressure off Butler and Crowder, while providing some scoring and quality defending...
  
• If one of Vander Blue, Dwight Buycks, or DJ Newbill can prove to have an efficient enough handle to play 8-10 mpg at the point...
  
• If two of either Blue, Buycks, and Newbill can provide solid minutes off the bench, including legitimate shooting depth for late game situations and not turning the ball over...
  
• If Mbao and Gardner can combine for 8-10 minutes off the bench of solid defense and rebounding...
  
  IF all of those things come to pass, then yes, I think we can start thinking about a possible Final Four run. I think we need a bench that reliably goes to 9-10 deep, we need Butler and DJO to both be candidates for First Team All-Big East, and we need two more players who will average 10 ppg, likely Crowder and someone off the bench.
  
  The other key factor is to contend for a title (which pretty much every Final Four team is doing) you generally need those three star performers, the three NBA level talents. Crean had that with Wade, Diener, and Novak. I'd say that Buzz even had that last year with Matthews, Hayward, and McNeal, though the fourth man, James, proved key when he went down with injury and the team collapsed. Could DJO morph into Ben Gordon? Could Vander Blue develop into our next Dwyane Wade? Could Butler or Crowder prove to have that necessary punch to put us over the top? The answer to all these questions, and to all of the ifs above, are yes. But unless they all come up yes this year, I think we should focus on the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 as reasonable targets.

I apologize for my separate thread/post which I put up today before reading this--I totally agree that until you have NBA level on the team, you cant consider you have a final four team.
Right now only DJO shows enough of something special(quick first step, explosiveness to basket, etc) to get attention from the NBA.
Wait until you hear NBA scouts ID at least one of our players as likely, then begin to talk final four--not before.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 06, 2010, 05:24:11 PM

Robert Jackson.

I have no idea why fans like you want to minimize MU's biggest basketball accomplishment of the last 33 years.  I've heard it all...it was only one player...Kentucky was overrated...we played in a weak conference...  All because people don't like the coach.

It's pathetic really.

This is a fair point.  Hey, I was excited as could be at the time, and went to NOLA for the Final Four, only to see the team with 3 NBA players on it - Wade, Diener, Novak + 2 Top 100 recruits in Robert Jackson and Scott Merritt, get embarrased and ran off the floor.  With that kind of talent there is ZERO reason a team should lose by 40 points, if you have a coach who has any real coaching talent.  It was a great run, but D-Wade had more to do with that than Tom Crean, and Tom Crean lucked into D-Wade.  Hell what did Travis Diener and Steve Novak accomplish together?

I appreciate what Tom Crean did while here, but also recognize that beyond lightning striking in the form of D-wade, Tom Crean was a very mediocre coach and recruiter.  there is no reason he shouldn't be landing 4 and 5 star kids at the storied Indiana prgram, considering how much playing time he has to offer...and how much talent is in Indiana...yet he can't even get a Top 20 ranked class.

Quote from: Ners on May 06, 2010, 09:59:13 PM
This is a fair point.  Hey, I was excited as could be at the time, and went to NOLA for the Final Four, only to see the team with 3 NBA players on it - Wade, Diener, Novak + 2 Top 100 recruits in Robert Jackson and Scott Merritt, get embarrased and ran off the floor.  With that kind of talent there is ZERO reason a team should lose by 40 points, if you have a coach who has any real coaching talent.  It was a great run, but D-Wade had more to do with that than Tom Crean, and Tom Crean lucked into D-Wade.  Hell what did Travis Diener and Steve Novak accomplish together?

I appreciate what Tom Crean did while here, but also recognize that beyond lightning striking in the form of D-wade, Tom Crean was a very mediocre coach and recruiter.  there is no reason he shouldn't be landing 4 and 5 star kids at the storied Indiana prgram, considering how much playing time he has to offer...and how much talent is in Indiana...yet he can't even get a Top 20 ranked class.

This is utterly ridiculous. Its truly sad to see that some let their hatred of one man, whether right or wrong, cloud their judgement. To take the Final 4 game and use it as an example of a coach having NO coaching talent is a JOKE. Everyone knows MU got embarrassed, but I would not trade that season, or the coach that came with it, for anything

You do not talk about the Elite 8 game in Minneapolis, by far the best game I have EVER seen Marquette play. Who coached that game? No matter how much talent MU had, that Kentucky team was stacked, and everyone in that arena knew that it would take a special game from MU to win, including a well coached game.

Listen, I do not like the way the guy left and I do not think he was a great recruiter or a great in game adjustments coach. However, what he did for the University is special in MANY, MANY WAYS. I could care less if you hate his guts, I just cannot stand when people let personal hatred cloud rational judgement

Quote from: mudimitri on May 06, 2010, 10:30:00 PM
This is utterly ridiculous. Its truly sad to see that some let their hatred of one man, whether right or wrong, cloud their judgement. To take the Final 4 game and use it as an example of a coach having NO coaching talent is a JOKE. Everyone knows MU got embarrassed, but I would not trade that season, or the coach that came with it, for anything

You do not talk about the Elite 8 game in Minneapolis, by far the best game I have EVER seen Marquette play. Who coached that game? No matter how much talent MU had, that Kentucky team was stacked, and everyone in that arena knew that it would take a special game from MU to win, including a well coached game.

Listen, I do not like the way the guy left and I do not think he was a great recruiter or a great in game adjustments coach. However, what he did for the University is special in MANY, MANY WAYS. I could care less if you hate his guts, I just cannot stand when people let personal hatred cloud rational judgement

I think you should edit the "However, what he did for the University is special in MANY,MANY WAYS.  To read:  What Dwyane Wade did for the university is special in many, many ways.  It was a great season for sure, I'm not disputing that.  Just as you mentioned you do not think he was a great recruiter or great coach - that's all my point in all of this has been.  Period.  I don't really hate Tom Crean on any level and can appreciate what he did while at MU...that said, we have a better Coach here now in Buzz Williams - and I think that will be Tom crean's biggest contribution to MU basketball in the long run - hiring Buzz Williams, and then leaving MU 1-year later.

I try to refrain from getting into these arguments, but Ners, your posts are getting ridiculous.  Are you in any way related to Buzz; he got the job by the way.

I honestly think if Buzz read your posts he would tell you to quit.  You come across as a guy trying to glorify Coach's 2 years to overcompensate for some shortcomings you see.  Coach walked into a great situation at MU, much better than the situation Crean walked into here.

I love how "fans" like you say that Wade was the only reason Crean had any success.  I am sure the rest of the players are appreciative of your support (my guess is that they don't give a rip what you say).  Another thing, how did Crean, who supposedly couldn't recruit or coach, win so many games at MU?

I did not like the way Crean left, but to minimize his accomplishments is nuts.  I hope Buzz does take MU to a higher level, but to say he is already better than Crean is reaching.  He won with Crean's players; now we will see how we do with his.

If one wanted to be the anti-Ners, one could say that the only reason we made the tourney this year is because the Big East had a down year.  One could also argue that Buzz's 2009 class was overrated, given the performance of some of our recruits (besides he already lost one of the top recruits of the group).  One could whine that Buzz got lucky that Blue fell into his lap after he had a falling out with UW, since he wanted to stay close to home.  All of this would sound like sour grapes - - good then you get my point.




   

   

Quote from: muchalktalk on May 07, 2010, 12:16:12 AM
I try to refrain from getting into these arguments, but Ners, your posts are getting ridiculous.  Are you in any way related to Buzz; he got the job by the way.

I honestly think if Buzz read your posts he would tell you to quit.  You come across as a guy trying to glorify Coach's 2 years to overcompensate for some shortcomings you see.  Coach walked into a great situation at MU, much better than the situation Crean walked into here.

I love how "fans" like you say that Wade was the only reason Crean had any success.  I am sure the rest of the players are appreciative of your support (my guess is that they don't give a rip what you say).  Another thing, how did Crean, who supposedly couldn't recruit or coach, win so many games at MU?

I did not like the way Crean left, but to minimize his accomplishments is nuts.  I hope Buzz does take MU to a higher level, but to say he is already better than Crean is reaching.  He won with Crean's players; now we will see how we do with his.

If one wanted to be the anti-Ners, one could say that the only reason we made the tourney this year is because the Big East had a down year.  One could also argue that Buzz's 2009 class was overrated, given the performance of some of our recruits (besides he already lost one of the top recruits of the group).  One could whine that Buzz got lucky that Blue fell into his lap after he had a falling out with UW, since he wanted to stay close to home.  All of this would sound like sour grapes - - good then you get my point.




   

   

Am I in any way related to Buzz??  Are you kidding me?? The answer is no -I just recognize talent when I see it, and a good coach when I see one.  Buzz fits both molds.  Tom Crean, not so much.  Are you sure you aren't related to Tom Crean?? Every single on e of your 24 posts only pertains to defending Tom Crean's legacy at MU, and/or to make excuses for him as to why he is struggling at IU.  I'd bet that you are simply Chicos 2.0..which is funny..that you would resort to making a 2nd account to post the same B.S. you do under Chicos Bailbonds.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 06, 2010, 05:24:11 PM

Robert Jackson.

I have no idea why fans like you want to minimize MU's biggest basketball accomplishment of the last 33 years.  I've heard it all...it was only one player...Kentucky was overrated...we played in a weak conference...  All because people don't like the coach.

It's pathetic really.

Couldn't agree more.

The poster you quoted feels any comment less than complete slurping of Buzz is tantamount to being a traitor to the program.

You can be a great fan and still be critical when necessary. Some fans are too simplistic to get that.

Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on May 08, 2010, 08:50:18 AM
Couldn't agree more.

The poster you quoted feels any comment less than complete slurping of Buzz is tantamount to being a traitor to the program.

You can be a great fan and still be critical when necessary. Some fans are too simplistic to get that.

I agree, I am a great fan, and will be critical when necessary - which is exactly what I am of Tom Crean.  As I've said, I appreciate what the guy did for the program, but really don't think he belongs above Kevin O'Neill in the hierarchy of coaches.  K.O., came into a MUCH tougher situation playing in the MCC, and MU had not been to an NCAA tourney in approximately 10 years when he took over.  Crean did a good job of building on K.O.'s accomplishments and taking the program to the next level.  My only point in all of this is, that Buzz Williams will take the program to even higher levels. 

And I also agree that some fans such as yourself, are too simplistic (or stubborn) to recognize talent and future greatness, when it is on display everyday from the head coach of your favorite team.  If you can't recognize that Buzz Williams has "it," then you my friend, are the simpleton.  Period.

Quote from: Ners on May 08, 2010, 09:36:03 AM
I agree, I am a great fan, and will be critical when necessary - which is exactly what I am of Tom Crean. 

And what criticism have you ever posted about Buzz?

Based on your comments, not only have you not been "critical when necessary"--you attack anyone who posts the slightest reasonable criticism of Buzz.

Hell, you even attacked me for suggesting that with the talent we had we should have expected a top-half finish last year. How dare I put such unrealistic expectations on Buzz--I must be trying to tear him down. And who was right in the end? 

If you were completely honest, you'd give Buzz credit for maintaining us at or close to the level that we were at when Crean left--not trying to tear down prior accomplishments for the sole purpose of building Buzz up. 

We haven't improved in the Big East standings--we're getting to about the same level Crean had us.  We haven't made a deeper run in the NCAA tournament.  His recruiting is a mixed bag (as was Crean's).   Basecially what Buzz has done is kept things on an even keel.

Quote from: Ners on May 08, 2010, 09:36:03 AM
As I've said, I appreciate what the guy did for the program,

No you don't.  In fact, you're constantly ripping on his biggest accomplishments and positives as if they never occurred or Crean had nothing to do with them.

Quote from: Ners on May 08, 2010, 09:36:03 AM
but really don't think he belongs above Kevin O'Neill in the hierarchy of coaches. 

By any objective measure, Crean accomplished more.

But let me state it in terms you might understand.  Other than O'Neill's Sweet 16 run, he never won an NCAA tournament game at Marquette. In fact, that run at Marquette contains his only NCAA or NIT wins of his entire career!

Frankly, if for no other reason than his parting shot at MU as he departed, he should be forever discredited.  Publicly telling the world that he took the program as far it could possibly go, that the fans and administration are completely unrealistic, and recommending his friend, Mr. NIT, as his successor, he set MU back at least as far as we were when he took over.

Quote from: Ners on May 08, 2010, 09:36:03 AM
K.O., came into a MUCH tougher situation playing in the MCC, and MU had not been to an NCAA tourney in approximately 10 years when he took over.  Crean did a good job of building on K.O.'s accomplishments and taking the program to the next level. 

One has to be completely insane to think its MUCH tougher to win in the MCC as compared to the Big East.  The MCC/Horizon was and still is a cakewalk compared to the Big East.  With even the slighest recruiting success, a coach can clean house.  Not only is it easier to win because of lesser competition--that winning is recognized nationally Xavier and Butler have regularly run to top 25 rankings in that conference.  In fact, It took Bruce Pearl one year to make it to the NCAA, and three to make it to the Sweet 16. 

So don't give us this BS that O'Neill had a "MUCH tougher" situation.  Frankly, Crean had the MUCH tougher situation to win in a league that regularly has five or six top 25 teams.

Furthermore, Crean wasn't building on O'Neill's accomplishments--he was rebuilding a losing program from Deane.
The team O'Neill inherited went 13-15 the year before.
The team Crean inherited was a 14-15 program the year before.

In other words, the program had nearly fallen to the level it was when O'Neill took over. 

Quote from: Ners on May 08, 2010, 09:36:03 AM
My only point in all of this is, that Buzz Williams will take the program to even higher levels. 

He might.  He might not.  Nobody can gripe if you make a prediction with a reasonable basis. 

Your problem is that you keep saying that Buzz has ALREADY accomplished it.   

Quote from: Ners on May 08, 2010, 09:36:03 AM
And I also agree that some fans such as yourself, are too simplistic (or stubborn) to recognize talent and future greatness, when it is on display everyday from the head coach of your favorite team. 

What is more simplistic than your Buzz=good/Crean=bad filter on life? 

What is worse is your double standard.  For example: when MU loses McNeal for the NCAA in 2007, its part of your "Look at Crean's record-- he didn't go deep in the tournament" broad-brush indictment.  When MU loses James in 2009, suddenly your argument is "Can't blame Buzz--did you really expect a deep run with James injured?" 

Quote from: Ners on May 08, 2010, 09:36:03 AM

If you can't recognize that Buzz Williams has "it," then you my friend, are the simpleton.  Period.

And if you can't admit that Tom Crean also had "it,", then you are just as much a simpleton.  Period.

84 -
I'm not one of the ringside judges, but for my money, you won this round.  +10

Ners,

I just don't understand why fans like you want to minimize the successes our teams achieved and the players we had just because you didn't like the coach.  By saying that all of our success was due to D Wade, you disrespect all the other guys who invested time and sweat-equity to put our team back on the map. 

If you think we hadn't fallen off of the map, then you were not following MU then.  Toward the end of Crean's tenure, we became a consistent Top 25 team.  I will be forever thankful for the Final Four run, as it was a great experience.

I hope to heck that Buzz can take us back to the Final Four, even win a National Championship. 

84 - I'm not going to go point by point over every comment you make..nobody wants to read posts that long.  The reality is Buzz has been here 2 years...okay??  As I've said before, give him 9 and lets see where he's at.  And are you knocking K.O. for only winning 2 NCAA tourney games??  Other than the final four run - Tom Crean won 1 NCAA tourney games...in 9 freakin' years.  K.O. was here what..6 years?  You are the one who makes invalid comparison because you don't measure things against the same sample size.  I'm taking the data we have avaliable currently, and pointing out how similar things are - even tho Buzz is in year 2, as opposed to year 9.

And dude - Crean never won the Big East..not even close.  He played in Conference USA, which at very least was a step up from the MCC, but not a very tough league.  It was in those years that Crean cleaned up and got us a high seed in the NCAA tourney - granted we lost as a 5 with D-Wade to Tulsa, but were able to squeak through as a 3 against Holy Cross...( on a team with 3 future NBA players) remarkable coaching there to get is into a nail bitter against a 14 seed.

And please, make points that coincide - Buzz got us out of the first round without DJames.  Crean couldn't get us out of the first round against MSU without McNeal.  And lets face it, you picked MU 5th in the Big East this year so you could say Buzz didn't live up to expectations - I think a lot of us thought they'd be better than 12th as virtually every single "expert" had MU - but not many genuinely thought this team would finish 5th..especially not after losing Otule, Maymon and Cadougan.

And no - I don't criticize Buzz, because up to this point - I can't really find anything to complain about.  Lastly 84, why can't Tom Crean land a better recruiting class at IU (It is Indiana after all), with a ton of playing time available, than Buzz landed at MU with limited playing time available?  And why does Tom Crean still have to tweet about the Big 3.  And why does Wes Matthews say things like 'i felt like the shackles were taken off, once Buzz became coach?"

Crean's a fraud.  Deal with it.  D-Wade made him who he is..and he still tries to leverage the crap out of that relationship..it's all he's got.

Quote from: Ners on May 08, 2010, 09:36:03 AM
I agree, I am a great fan, and will be critical when necessary - which is exactly what I am of Tom Crean.  As I've said, I appreciate what the guy did for the program, but really don't think he belongs above Kevin O'Neill in the hierarchy of coaches.  K.O., came into a MUCH tougher situation playing in the MCC, and MU had not been to an NCAA tourney in approximately 10 years when he took over.  Crean did a good job of building on K.O.'s accomplishments and taking the program to the next level.  My only point in all of this is, that Buzz Williams will take the program to even higher levels. 

And I also agree that some fans such as yourself, are too simplistic (or stubborn) to recognize talent and future greatness, when it is on display everyday from the head coach of your favorite team.  If you can't recognize that Buzz Williams has "it," then you my friend, are the simpleton.  Period.

Seems to me Tom Crean is the only target of your criticism. You hate Tom Crean. Understandable. Makes you a simpleton to then hate everything he accomplished (which is what you do repeatedly with his Final Four). You don't do this with KO, Deane, or probably even Majerus -- even though he totally dicked MU.

And your last paragraph sounds like excerpts from a cult member. Future greatness on display every day???? Like the day he blew a fuse and went after Mac on the radio? Or the day he accepted a player into the family who then got arrested for rape? Or the day he went against the advice of nearly every prep coach in the state and recruited the Maymons? Or the day his team lost a 17-point lead in the second half (only to show a propensity of repeating this feat throughout the season)? Or the day he refused to call a timeout when a woeful offensive team punched us in the face coming out of halftime?

Look, Ners, Buzz has the makings of a very good coach. He's young. Got energy. Attractive personality on the recruiting trail. Executes off-beat thinking on the court. But to claim he's done nothing to deserve criticism, and overlook his mistakes because of your hope he one day becomes a great coach, smacks of blind homersim.

It's starting to feel like 2002-2004 again around here where there are staunch defenders of the coach and those who do anything less then slurp Buzz are deemed surplus to requirements and bad fans.

Quote from: Ners on May 08, 2010, 01:53:42 PM
84 - I'm not going to go point by point over every comment you make..nobody wants to read posts that long.

Of course you aren't.  Because you can't.

• You can't argue that Buzz hasn't accomplished anything other than keeping us at the level we were at because its true.
  
• You can't argue that O'Neill didn't do anything outside his Sweet 16 run because its true.
• You can't argue my point that its tougher to win in the Big East than in the MCC because its true.
• You can't argue you don't have a double standard, because you do

Quote from: Ners on May 08, 2010, 01:53:42 PM
 The reality is Buzz has been here 2 years...okay??  As I've said before, give him 9 and lets see where he's at.

No, that's not what you said before.  What you said before was that Buzz has ALREADY surpassed Crean's accomplishments.

I'm happy to give him more time--but you're not willing to even concede that the jury is still out.  You're saying Buzz has accomplished more.  Already.  Based on what he has already done.

Quote from: Ners on May 08, 2010, 01:53:42 PM
And are you knocking K.O. for only winning 2 NCAA tourney games??  

No.  I'm knocking him because outside of the Sweet 16 year, he didn't win ANY NCAA tourney games!!

Quote from: Ners on May 08, 2010, 01:53:42 PM
Other than the final four run - Tom Crean won 1 NCAA tourney games...in 9 freakin' years.

So?  Other than the Sweet 16 year, KO won zero NCAA games.  And Zero NIT games.  

And other than that single win in 2009, Buzz has yet to win an NCAA game!

(Boy, this is fun when we get to exclude each coach's best season!--or can we only do that for Crean?).  

Quote from: Ners on May 08, 2010, 01:53:42 PM
 K.O. was here what..6 years?  You are the one who makes invalid comparison because you don't measure things against the same sample size.  I'm taking the data we have avaliable currently, and pointing out how similar things are - even tho Buzz is in year 2, as opposed to year 9.

So we're supposed to give O'Neill credit for bailing on MU?  Thats a new one.

O'Neill got to a Sweet 16 in his fifth season. Crean got to a Final Four in his fourth season.  Excluding anything that happened after Crean's fifth year, he STILL accomplished more than O'Neill.

As for Buzz, I'm happy to defer judgement to give him time--but you are the one who said said he ALREADY surpassed Crean. I'm looking at Buzz's body of work to see what he has that would surpass either a Sweet 16 or a Final Four--and all I see is one NCAA win over Utah State.

Quote from: Ners on May 08, 2010, 01:53:42 PM
And dude - Crean never won the Big East..not even close.  

Has Buzz?  

How about this:  
Has Buzz surpassed Crean's best Big East finish (4th place)?  No.  
Has Buzz equalled Crean's best Big East finish (4th place)?  No.

But according to you, Buzz has "ALREADY surpassed" Crean.  

I'm willing to concede that Buzz has continued the success that was in place under Crean--which is no small accomplishment.  

But I really have to question definition of "surpassed" that you think Buzz has achieved it.

Quote from: Ners on May 08, 2010, 01:53:42 PM
And lets face it, you picked MU 5th in the Big East this year so you could say Buzz didn't live up to expectations - I think a lot of us thought they'd be better than 12th as virtually every single "expert" had MU - but not many genuinely thought this team would finish 5th..especially not after losing Otule, Maymon and Cadougan.

Those same "experts" you so blindly follow had DJO with a 40 rating.  Think that might have had something to do with their pre-season predictions?

But I'm guessing that you're right there with the experts--nobody could predict what DJO (or Buycks or Butler) would accomplish.  

If this had been Crean, you would be saying that he "lucked into" a great season because nobody knew DJO was going to be as good as he was.

Meanwhile, I based my prediction on the statement that Buycks, DJO and Butler would be at least as good as the Amigos were as frosh.  Therefore, either you think (as I did) that his performance was entirely predictable (in which case Buzz rightly gets props for finding and signing DJO and Buycks specifically ahead others).  

Otherwise, you have to accept that Buzz merely lucked into success this season, because nobody expected DJO (and Buycks and Butler) to perform that well.

Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on May 08, 2010, 02:46:02 PM
Seems to me Tom Crean is the only target of your criticism. You hate Tom Crean. Understandable. Makes you a simpleton to then hate everything he accomplished (which is what you do repeatedly with his Final Four). You don't do this with KO, Deane, or probably even Majerus -- even though he totally dicked MU.

And your last paragraph sounds like excerpts from a cult member. Future greatness on display every day???? Like the day he blew a fuse and went after Mac on the radio? Or the day he accepted a player into the family who then got arrested for rape? Or the day he went against the advice of nearly every prep coach in the state and recruited the Maymons? Or the day his team lost a 17-point lead in the second half (only to show a propensity of repeating this feat throughout the season)? Or the day he refused to call a timeout when a woeful offensive team punched us in the face coming out of halftime?

Sorry, I just don't worship Tom Crean like you, 84, and Chicos do.  Its funny you call me cult-like in my respect and admiration for Buzz, yet you act the exact same way toward Tom Crean.  I don't hate the guy.  Period.  I just don't think he's a very good coach, or recruiter for that matter - evidenced by his performance thus far at IU, and what he accomplished at MU without a once in a century player like DWade..whom was a recruiting afterthought.

And are you really going to call out last years team for losing several 2nd half leads??  The fact we had leasds or were in as many games as we were given our lack of size, and dpth speaks volumes to how good of coach Buzz Williams is.  Hindsight is always 20-20, and its guys like you that consistently judge things based on hindsight - such as recruiting Maymon.  I like that Buzz took a chance on Maymon - why not??  id it really hurt us - when it may have helped us with regard to landing Vander blue?  And are you really going to blame Buzz for recruiting a kid who never set foot on MU's campus, had never been charged with any type of crime...but goes and does a stupid thing one night while in junior college?  Again, hindsight, 20-20, an that's how you judge things.  I'm making projections and predictions about the success of MU under Buzz - and guys like you ridiculemy enthusiasm.  We'll see how it all plays out over the next 4-7 years..my money is that Buzzz will far surpass Tom Crean..and that is what I'm most thankful to TC for..was bringing Buzz here.  And when Buzz does achieve great things at MU - I'll be sure to remind you, 84 and Chicos about it daily.  Count on it.

84 - I'm done debating with you because you are ridiculous.  I'll say it one last time, give Buzz 7 more years at MU and we'll see how he stacks up against Tom Crean.  At this point he has 7 years to win 4 more NCAA tourney games.  I like his chances.

Lastly, why - if your boy Tom Crean is so awesome - is he consistently getting his ass kicked at IU??  And..with all that playing time available - why can he not land a Top 20 recruiting class?  Hell, he's at Indiana after all...a legendary basketball program.  Please just answer these questions - I look forward to the excuses you try to make to justify what to this point, has been a horse-sh$t job at Indiana.

I think it is very premature to say Buzz is better than Crean, but I don't think it is too much to say that many are optimistic that Buzz will be better than Crean. I think Buzz has accomplished something that Crean hasn't. In the year that was supposed to be a rebuilding year, Buzz took us to the tournament and we played down to the wire against an underseeded 11. We lost 3 of our all-time best players.

We had two years where we were in the NIT following the Final Four. Those teams had 2 NBA players (although they could have made the tourney if Diener didn't get hurt) and were in Conference-USA. I hope that argument doesn't hold up and we later find that last years team we had multiple NBA players on last year's team, but as of now I only see Lazar with an outside chance and possibly DJO.

Buzz has a small sample size and could flame out in a few years. Also, I'm sure you can use the argument that he had 3 of Crean's players last year. People say Buzz hasn't proved himself well because of Crean's players, but I think it can be just as tough winning with other players. Do you think Buzz would have recruited Cooby or Acker? Based on the others he has recruited I say no. But he was able to alter his style in order to maximize each of their skills. 

I think we all hope Buzz is better than Crean because that means that we are consistently in the tournament and ranked. I personally think Buzz has a higher ceiling than Crean. I'm sure I'm biased because I like Buzz more than Crean, but I really think that Buzz has the potential to take this program to great heights.

Ners is right! Time to let it go.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=16178.msg156963#msg156963

[Quote from: Ners on November 21, 2009, 03:11:15 PM ]

Quote

While I've never had any personal dealings with Tom Crean, and I've read here some people who have thought he evloved into an ass - I do think it is time for people to get off the Tom Crean Hate Wagon.  Stating the obvious, but the Tom Crean era really turned the image and perception of Marquette Basketball around.  The Al MacGuire center became a reality - a much needed facility/tool needed for training and recruiting.  Crean brought Buzz Williams on staff, and left behind a great situation for Buzz.  Buzz is taking the torch and running with it, and all signs indicate he could take the program to a level not seen since Al.  I just wish more MU fans would show some gratitude to Tom Crean.  Some posters here come off as bitter, even whiney girl types.  Who cares is Tom Crean used a tanning bed or not??  Really people.  Stop dissecting the guy and be grateful for what he did for our program.  Time to get over it.
[/quote]

Quote from: 2002MUalum on May 08, 2010, 05:22:55 PM
Ners is right! Time to let it go.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=16178.msg156963#msg156963

[Quote from: Ners on November 21, 2009, 03:11:15 PM ]

Might be the funniest roast I've ever read on this board.  :D

Credit to you for checking the record. And that is a great way to end this close-season conversation.

Quote from: Benny B on May 04, 2010, 09:08:14 AM
Since I absolutely thrive upon putting the cart about two miles in front of the horse, I had a thought this morning about the Gardner signing... is he the missing piece?

Consider this: You have an absolute beast coming in who has size and skill (Gardner).  You have another big in Otule who, if he is progressing as many have said, will be a solid contributor on at least the defensive end.  Jae may very well be Lazar 2.0 if he can score on demand.  Blue and Cadougan will be a two-headed monster at the point (and 2), each with a different skill set.  DJO is, well... DJO (need I say more?).  Give these guys a full year to get it together, and what happens after that?

In 2011-12, MU's is going to return a defensive C, two PF's who can score, two guys who can run the point and penetrate, and a threat from downtown.  Not to mention a bench of further refined talent, and possibly another impact freshman or two.

Is the ceiling high enough to make a return trip to Nola in 2012, or is Buzz still missing a few pieces?

Sounds like one heck of a team.

Quote from: muchalktalk on May 07, 2010, 12:16:12 AM
I try to refrain from getting into these arguments, but Ners, your posts are getting ridiculous.  Are you in any way related to Buzz; he got the job by the way.

I honestly think if Buzz read your posts he would tell you to quit.  You come across as a guy trying to glorify Coach's 2 years to overcompensate for some shortcomings you see.  Coach walked into a great situation at MU, much better than the situation Crean walked into here.

I love how "fans" like you say that Wade was the only reason Crean had any success.  I am sure the rest of the players are appreciative of your support (my guess is that they don't give a rip what you say).  Another thing, how did Crean, who supposedly couldn't recruit or coach, win so many games at MU?

I did not like the way Crean left, but to minimize his accomplishments is nuts.  I hope Buzz does take MU to a higher level, but to say he is already better than Crean is reaching.  He won with Crean's players; now we will see how we do with his.

If one wanted to be the anti-Ners, one could say that the only reason we made the tourney this year is because the Big East had a down year.  One could also argue that Buzz's 2009 class was overrated, given the performance of some of our recruits (besides he already lost one of the top recruits of the group).  One could whine that Buzz got lucky that Blue fell into his lap after he had a falling out with UW, since he wanted to stay close to home.  All of this would sound like sour grapes - - good then you get my point.

I'm also not a fan at all of how Crean left and thus it has made me hope he fails at Indiana, but reading this thread, this Ners guy sounds ridiculous.

Who cares whether anyone thinks landing Wade was lucky. Bottom line is what matters in sports and Crean did bring in Wade and did lead Marquette to the best season of my college basketball fan viewing life. The circumstances for how Wade got here are utterly irrelevant to me. People could make a somewhat similar argument that Ron Wolf got lucky in that Brett Favre became a HOF QB which nobody in the NFL at the time would have predicted and thus the trade lead to a Super Bowl win. Who cares if Wolf may have got lucky in Favre turning out so good, all that matters is that Wolf brought Brett in. Wolf and Crean both took over not very enviable situations also. Plus, it's far from shocking in college basketball to see non-five star recruits then turn into great college players which thus help lift up a program as Wade did.

I'm a big fan of Buzz Williams and have relatively high confidence that he'll lead the program to consistent success and maybe even a Final Four run of his own. At the same time it's also not hard at all for me to greatly respect the things Crean did in restoring the program to much higher prominence than before he arrived, in helping make the program attractive enough to be chosen entrance to the Big East, and a wonderful Final Four season. Sadly, Crean's exit of Marquette has tarnished my opinion of him as a person, but that won't turn me into someone who goes into denial over the many fabulous things he accomplished after taking over a program going seriously in the wrong direction.

+1

Well stated, Dude.

Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on May 08, 2010, 07:45:19 PM
Might be the funniest roast I've ever read on this board.  :D

Credit to you for checking the record. And that is a great way to end this close-season conversation.

That post should illustrate that I don't have any hate toward Tom Crean, as well as states that I have some gratitude toward the guy. Nothing I'm posting here takes that away.  I'm simply stating that Tom Crean was overrated as a coach and recruiter.  I look forward to seeing what Buzz does, and am confident he'll take this program farther than Tom Crean did.  In fact, Tom Crean should be thanked for leaving when he did, and for leaving us Buzz.  It is amazing to contrast their public personalities, as well as their results on the court and off the court in recruiting.

So for 2002, 84, Chicos, Golden Avalanche - Clearly I don't hate your boy TC, can appreciate what he did while at MU - but also don't think there is anything wrong with comparing him to Buzz Williams and coming to the conclusion that I like Buzz Williams 100% more, and have a lot more confidence in him, than I do/did Tom Crean.  So far the on court results at Indiana, and recruiting results of Indiana, seem to illustrate we are fortunate to have Buzz.

Quote from: Ners on May 07, 2010, 10:23:25 PM
  Am I in any way related to Buzz??  Are you kidding me?? The answer is no -I just recognize talent when I see it, and a good coach when I see one.  Buzz fits both molds.  Tom Crean, not so much.  Are you sure you aren't related to Tom Crean?? Every single on e of your 24 posts only pertains to defending Tom Crean's legacy at MU, and/or to make excuses for him as to why he is struggling at IU.  I'd bet that you are simply Chicos 2.0..which is funny..that you would resort to making a 2nd account to post the same B.S. you do under Chicos Bailbonds.

Sorry, but you are very wrong here and the mods can confirm this.  I'll await your apology and admission of error.   ::)

Quote from: Ners on May 08, 2010, 01:53:42 PM


And dude - Crean never won the Big East..not even close.  He played in Conference USA, which at very least was a step up from the MCC, but not a very tough league.  It was in those years that Crean cleaned up and got us a high seed in the NCAA tourney - granted we lost as a 5 with D-Wade to Tulsa, but were able to squeak through as a 3 against Holy Cross...( on a team with 3 future NBA players) remarkable coaching there to get is into a nail bitter against a 14 seed.

Comical on every level.  CUSA sent 5 teams to the big dance, something even the Big Ten struggles to do.  And you say it was merely a "step up" from the MCC?

Good Christ you make some comments that are remarkably unstable.

Quote from: 2002MUalum on May 08, 2010, 05:22:55 PM
Ners is right! Time to let it go.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=16178.msg156963#msg156963

[Quote from: Ners on November 21, 2009, 03:11:15 PM ]

LOL.  Now that was beautiful

Quote from: Ners on May 09, 2010, 11:54:06 AM
That post should illustrate that I don't have any hate toward Tom Crean, as well as states that I have some gratitude toward the guy. Nothing I'm posting here takes that away.  I'm simply stating that Tom Crean was overrated as a coach and recruiter.  I look forward to seeing what Buzz does, and am confident he'll take this program farther than Tom Crean did.  In fact, Tom Crean should be thanked for leaving when he did, and for leaving us Buzz.  It is amazing to contrast their public personalities, as well as their results on the court and off the court in recruiting.

So for 2002, 84, Chicos, Golden Avalanche - Clearly I don't hate your boy TC, can appreciate what he did while at MU - but also don't think there is anything wrong with comparing him to Buzz Williams and coming to the conclusion that I like Buzz Williams 100% more, and have a lot more confidence in him, than I do/did Tom Crean.  So far the on court results at Indiana, and recruiting results of Indiana, seem to illustrate we are fortunate to have Buzz.

I want to believe you, but then you say things like:

Quote from: Ners on May 08, 2010, 01:53:42 PM

...Crean never won the Big East..not even close.  He played in Conference USA, which at very least was a step up from the MCC, but not a very tough league....

...Crean's a fraud.  Deal with it.  D-Wade made him who he is..

Your first post back in December is level headed and reasonable. I agree with you 100%.

However, since then, your like of Buzz (which I agree with) seems to really have made you dislike former coach.

I think you can appreciate and like them both. No need to retro-actively call Crean "lucky" now that we have seen him struggle at certain points at both MU and IU. Seems like sour grapes.

Buzz is Buzz. We don't need to re-hash Crean's shortcomings to appreciate Buzz. Every Crean loss doesn't make Buzz a better coach. Crean could win 10 National Championships in a row, and it wouldn't make Buzz a better or worse coach.

Quote from: 2002MUalum on May 09, 2010, 02:37:26 PM


I think you can appreciate and like them both. No need to retro-actively call Crean "lucky" now that we have seen him struggle at certain points at both MU and IU. Seems like sour grapes.

Amen....been saying that for several years now.  Why is it not possible to appreciate them both?  Each are winners, each have done it the right way, kids graduating and winning at a high level.  Yet one guy was "lucky" and the other wasn't?  I guess becoming head coach and having 4 of the top 8 scorers in Marquette history handed to you on your roster was skill?

Appreciate them both.  Let's hope Buzz has the same or better career than Crean had.  We won't know for a number of years.