I always had a feeling that the retirement of Tranghese was the beginning of the end. I dont think he wanted to be on board post-ACC raid. He started the conference and wanted to leave at its peak (I never thought that he really believed the BE was stronger than ever as he said in his last press conference).
http://espn.go.com/blog/bigeast/post/_/id/8473/tranghese-big-east-could-be-in-trouble
Context man, context!
Quote
"It's a question of what the Big Ten does,'' he said. "If the Big Ten takes multiple teams, the Big East is in trouble.''
"I don't think there's anything the Big East can do to prevent it," he told the radio station. "Everyone is on pins and needles waiting to see what the Big Ten will do. It's a pretty dicey time.''
The comments below the article completely reek of naiveity. For example:
"The Big East has one of the best journalism schools in the country at Syracuse. Partner w/ SU to form a Big East network - it would reach the biggest market in the country."
Jesus H. Christ....
The Big Ten is really slow and deliberate about expansion. Hell, they've got eleven teams and they still call themselves the Big Ten. When they added Penn State to get to 11, they made it clear that they were eventually going to 12 teams, yet they sat back and watched while the Big Eight raided the southwest conference for four teams and beat them to the Big 12 name.
When the Big Ten does expand it will stop at 12 like every other BCS conference that isn't worried about surviving a raid on its members does. Then whether they grab someone from the BEast or the Big 12, most likely Memphis (maybe Houston) moves into the vacated spot and things probably stay put for another 50 years.
If they do go for Rutgers, as is rumored, and the BEast adds Memphis, the BEast takes a hit in football, but B-Ball gets to be unbelievable!
Quote from: LittleMurs on March 24, 2010, 12:21:10 AM
The Big Ten is really slow and deliberate about expansion. Hell, they've got eleven teams and they still call themselves the Big Ten. When they added Penn State to get to 11, they made it clear that they were eventually going to 12 teams, yet they sat back and watched while the Big Eight raided the southwest conference for four teams and beat them to the Big 12 name.
When the Big Ten does expand it will stop at 12 like every other BCS conference that isn't worried about surviving a raid on its members does. Then whether they grab someone from the BEast or the Big 12, most likely Memphis (maybe Houston) moves into the vacated spot and things probably stay put for another 50 years.
If they do go for Rutgers, as is rumored, and the BEast adds Memphis, the BEast takes a hit in football, but B-Ball gets to be unbelievable!
If the B10 adds a BE school, I seriously doubt Memphis will be the next BE addition. It will likely be a football driven decision and Memphis' football program is really bad.
Nevermind the fact that Memphis would probably be dead last in terms of academic reputation if it joined the BE.
Memphis tried to get into the BE the first time around but the BE didnt like their overall resume. Guess what they did to try to bolster their resume? After Tranghese retired, they hired him as a consultant (who better than the guy that looked at all of the applications). Now, according to this interview, "the types of schools that would make the Big East more viable aren't available." Im pretty sure Memphis is available but they obviously arent considered a school that will add any value to the conference.
What about E. Carolina?
The problem is there is no school that would add value to the BE right now, unless they raid another BCS conference. And that isn't going to happen because they don't have the $$$ to pry anyone else away. The only reason that Louisville and Cincinnati were added was to get up to 8 teams...which they balanced out with Marquette and DePaul to keep the basketball only schools happy. Tranghese knows this. He knows that the B10's likely addition of another school is the big decision that needs to be made...and if it is a "transformative" decision where 3-5 teams are plucked from other conferences, the BE just has to make sure it is left in a position strong enough to not lose too much control.
The best case for the BE would be the B10 pucking a school from another conference like Missouri. It actually wouldn't be disasterous if they pick up Rutgers or ND. However, if they pick up Rutgers, Pitt, Missouri and Texas...well, then everything everywhere is up for grabs.
Quote from: slitheringviper on March 24, 2010, 01:33:37 AM
Rutgers is no loss. Adios
Rutgers is a big loss for football. Replacing with Memphis is a step down for football schools. Just a matter of time before this all breaks apart as football is making its move.
Memphis might not be that good now in football, but being in a BCS major conference will improve their recruiting classes. That will lead to a better football program over time. Cincinatti and Louisville were not great football programs and they got better once in the Big East.
As far as basketball goes, I would love to play Memphis once or twice a year instead of Rutgers. This would make the Big East basketball conference even better.
Quote from: dkurszewski on March 24, 2010, 11:49:50 AM
Memphis might not be that good now in football, but being in a BCS major conference will improve their recruiting classes. That will lead to a better football program over time. Cincinatti and Louisville were not great football programs and they got better once in the Big East.
Louisville's football program has gotten worse since it joined the BE.
Our best possible outcome is if another conference also gets raided and we can merge with their left-overs.
For example, if the B10 takes Texas and Missouri, and the Pac10 takes Colorado, maybe the Big East can merge with the northern B12 schools (Nebraska, Kansas, K-State, Iowa State). Or if the SEC gets greedy and takes FSU, Clemson, Miami, and G-Tech, maybe the Big East can merge with the other 8 schools in the ACC.
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/13102294/pac10-looking-at-title-game-possibilities-without-expansion?tag=headlines;headlines
Another thing to consider - Pac 10 is considering getting an exemption, possibly even a change to the pointless and outdated "12 team rule" to hold a conference championship in football. The Big Ten estimates a championship game is worth $12-$15 million to the conference, and if the pointless rule changes it may influence the Big Ten's decision to expand, also making it even more doubtful they take more than one team as the new money is split less ways. The Big Ten, particularly with this revenue boost will find it difficult to add programs that are 110% certain to give a worthwhile boost to the revenue share for all the current members.
Agreed. I think FSU and Miami are misfits in the ACC. I wouldnt be surprised if they go somewhere else. Then they add Syracuse and UConn maybe?
Quote from: chapman on March 24, 2010, 12:20:54 PM
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/13102294/pac10-looking-at-title-game-possibilities-without-expansion?tag=headlines;headlines
Another thing to consider - Pac 10 is considering getting an exemption, possibly even a change to the pointless and outdated "12 team rule" to hold a conference championship in football. The Big Ten estimates a championship game is worth $12-$15 million to the conference, and if the pointless rule changes it may influence the Big Ten's decision to expand, also making it even more doubtful they take more than one team as the new money is split less ways. The Big Ten, particularly with this revenue boost will find it difficult to add programs that are 110% certain to give a worthwhile boost to the revenue share for all the current members.
The conference championship game isn't really the driving force when it comes to revenue any longer. New markets for the Big Ten Network are.
Quote from: Litehouse on March 24, 2010, 12:16:12 PM
Our best possible outcome is if another conference also gets raided and we can merge with their left-overs.
For example, if the B10 takes Texas and Missouri, and the Pac10 takes Colorado, maybe the Big East can merge with the northern B12 schools (Nebraska, Kansas, K-State, Iowa State). Or if the SEC gets greedy and takes FSU, Clemson, Miami, and G-Tech, maybe the Big East can merge with the other 8 schools in the ACC.
Won't happen....there is no benefit to the other conferences for doing that, it would just water them down.
Just hope and pray that Cottingham has a plan....expanding to 96 can't happen quick enough if all this blows up
I know that this has been brought up before but, if the Big East where to break up (which seems almost inevitable), is there a realistic chance that the Big East "leftovers" could poach the A-10 and create a basketball-centric Catholic University conference?
Hypothetical 10-team conference*...
Marquette
Notre Dame
Villanova
Georgetown
Seton Hall
St. John's
DePaul
Providence
Xavier
Dayton
It's obviously not as strong as the current Big East but it's an interesting mix and would have some good match-ups. That being said, it could end up being very top-heavy, not to mention it's risky for the bigger names schools to enter a conference with teams like DePaul and PC who are hovering near mid-major status.
(Depending on how things shake out, they could also add to the conf or replace teams who go elsewhere with St. Joe's, St. Bonnie, Siena, or even SLU or Creighton. That would weaken the conference though so it's probably not the best option.)
Anyway, maybe Chicos or someone else who's more "in the know" than I am could weigh in on this. Any realistic chance of something similar to this alignment happening?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 24, 2010, 01:04:40 PM
Won't happen....there is no benefit to the other conferences for doing that, it would just water them down.
Just hope and pray that Cottingham has a plan....expanding to 96 can't happen quick enough if all this blows up
I'm not saying it's likely, but if Mizzou, Colorado and Texas leave the B12, then they're left with the northern schools (Nebraska, Kansas, K-State and Iowa State), the 2 Oklahoma schools (OU and OK State) and the Texas schools (Baylor, Texas Tech and Texas A&M). If the potential expansion candidates for the B12 were more schools in Texas or Oklahoma (TCU, Houston, SMU, Tulsa), I could see the northern B12 schools deciding it might be more beneficial to be affiliated with the Big East schools, instead of getting lost with all the Texas/Oklahoma schools.
Either way, I think we'll be fine as long as we can stay in the same division as the football conferences.
I think that Tranghese is full of it. I think he's probably trying to create panic, to help his client, Memphis escape CUSA. The ACC is set. The SEC is set. The Big 12 is set. The Big 10 will at some point add ONE more team. Not ND, that ship has sailed, though it came close to docking. Rutgers is the most likely Big East target, with Syracuse a second option, though its distance from the rest of the Big Ten schools is a definite negative for the athletic directors (they have a lot of teams to send out there and they'd all have to go by plane). I forget why (maybe academics, the Big 10 presidents want major research institutions or something) but Connecticut is not in their sights. There is no way that Texas leaves the Big 12. The Big 10 might be able to get Missouri or even Nebraska. In which case the Big 12 goes for Memphis or Houston or Louisville. If we lose Loserville, then we grab Memphis or Houston. The Pac 10 would love to expand to 12, but they ain't going to get Colorado or any other Big 12 team and they know it. the don't like their options for raiding the other western conferences (any of those schools would dilute their revenue pool), so they are holding pat and trying to get a football playoff with only 10 schools.
To sum up, the Big 10 (grabbing Penn State) and the SEC (Arkansas, South Carolina?) started this conference realignment, but when the other conferences saw what was happening, they all came up with an end game that they wanted and executed it while the Big 10 sat on its hands, probably hoping for ND. The Big 10 was/is in no hurry since they are confident they can get ONE team that they want from the Big East or the Big 12 (but not ANY team they want from the Big 12) anytime they want it. Once the Big 10 moves, the victimized conference will decide who to add to fill their ONE vacancy, and that will be it my friends for the next 50 or so years.
Modification: TCU or Southern Methodist or even Tulsa might be considered by the Big 12, but Houston would make the most sense for them.
I pretty much agree with this, except it will only last for a few years. As the $ continues to shift, things will start to happen again.
The Sultan of South Wayne (may he forgive me for putting him in orange) is absolutely correct about this being entirely about TV markets. Now that I think of it, this might very well explain Tranghese's comments. As I stated above, the only LIKELY scenario out there is that the Big 10 picks up one team, and the affected conference replaces that one team. In this situation, Memphis might very well lose out to Houston, in spite of its vaunted basketball program. Houston plays division I football (I'm not sure who's the better football program between them and Memphis right now) and they are in the fourth biggest TV market in the country. That and concern over the residual seediness of the Calipari rein in Memphis may well put Houston ahead of Memphis for one open spot.
However, if Tranghese can convince enough athletic directors that the sky is about to fall and conferences will implode, then it might make sense for the Big East, say, to add three or more teams, so that it is assured of surviving the coming catastrophe. If the Big East decides to add numerous teams, it would be very hard not to include Memphis in the mix. I wonder what Tranghese's bonus would be, if this were to happen?
I don't intend to hijack this thread but can Marquette continue at our current level without the Big East? Won't there just be some other basketball first or basketball only conference with some of the current Big East teams? I read the article on football that someone posted and understand the concerns. Nevertheless, there will be a desire for basketball and as long as we connect with whoever, is there reason for doom and gloom?
Quote from: radome on March 24, 2010, 03:12:29 PM
I don't intend to hijack this thread but can Marquette continue at our current level without the Big East? Won't there just be some other basketball first or basketball only conference with some of the current Big East teams? I read the article on football that someone posted and understand the concerns. Nevertheless, there will be a desire for basketball and as long as we connect with whoever, is there reason for doom and gloom?
The money we get as a part-time member of the BE is almost irrelevant (under $1.5 MM). I would think most other conference could offer something similar. The exposure we get with the BE is what is priceless. Unfortunately, it's the football schools (for the most part) that have added the most value to the BE name (UConn, Pitt, WV, Cuse). Nova and GTown have also contributed enormously but if the football schools leave, those two schools cant hold up the conference. It's best to just go with whichever conference has a history of supporting their basketball product (and has success). I dont think its all 'doom and gloom' for us. The football schools have a lot more at stake.
Quote from: BrewCity on March 24, 2010, 03:06:20 PM
I pretty much agree with this, except it will only last for a few years. As the $ continues to shift, things will start to happen again.
I really think that the expansion of the ACC, the creation of the Big 12, and the reinvention of the Big East was the major earth quake. The Big 10's addition of one last team will be an after shock. At that point, I think that the fault lines are pretty much aligned. I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say "as the $ continues to shift". One of the results of these changes will be that the BCS conferences will be in an even more dominate position regarding raking in the revenues for "amateur" athletic contests. Nothing attracts money like money.
Tranghese certainly has a client to think about, but I would have to go so far over the deep end of conspiracies to think he wants to see the destruction of the very conference he helped birth along with Gavitt.
As stated a month or two ago...if the Big Ten only grabs one, then it's all manageable. If they grab 3, doesn't matter which conference its from, there will be dominoes falling everywhere. At that point everyone else tries to pick up someone else to fortify their situation.
This is why I stated two days ago that Houston is in an interesting position right now. 4th largest market, ton of tradition, etc....right now they aren't in the best place, but if the Big 12 loses teams, if the SEC needs a team, if someone else needs a team, they suddenly become attractive as they have a bowl football team and a NCAA basketball team.
Unfortunately we wait because it doesn't seem like there are any proactive moves for the Big East to make on the football side unless they pulled a rabbit out of the hat and Notre Dame joined.....never going to happen.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 24, 2010, 01:30:09 PM
I know that this has been brought up before but, if the Big East where to break up (which seems almost inevitable), is there a realistic chance that the Big East "leftovers" could poach the A-10 and create a basketball-centric Catholic University conference?
Hypothetical 10-team conference*...
Marquette
Notre Dame
Villanova
Georgetown
Seton Hall
St. John's
DePaul
Providence
Xavier
Dayton
It's obviously not as strong as the current Big East but it's an interesting mix and would have some good match-ups. That being said, it could end up being very top-heavy, not to mention it's risky for the bigger names schools to enter a conference with teams like DePaul and PC who are hovering near mid-major status.
(Depending on how things shake out, they could also add to the conf or replace teams who go elsewhere with St. Joe's, St. Bonnie, Siena, or even SLU or Creighton. That would weaken the conference though so it's probably not the best option.)
Anyway, maybe Chicos or someone else who's more "in the know" than I am could weigh in on this. Any realistic chance of something similar to this alignment happening?
"Any realistic chance of something similar to this alignment happening?"
No, nada.
I used to be enamored with this prospect too, but discovered that It was not gonna happen. The reason? The schools involved don't want to do it. The feeling is that an all Catholic school conference risks seeming too parochial to have a wide marketing appeal. If that were true, the falloff of TV and other related revenue would doom the schools in the conference to mid-major status.
If, (and this is a Huge if) football schools were to cast out basketball only schools from their conferences, look for a group of the above schools to fervently recruit non-Catholic private (Butler) and non-football playing* public schools (University of Northern Iowa?) to add to the mix to create a conference with a more universal appeal. I'm not sure that I buy this line of thinking, but that's what it was as of a few years ago anyway.
Modification: *non-Division 1 football playing schools
"it doesn't seem like there are any proactive moves for the Big East to make on the football side unless they pulled a rabbit out of the hat and Notre Dame joined.....never going to happen."
Well, maybe, if we petitioned the Pope, a Papal edict might get them to do it. Nah, they'd just tell him to xxxx off, too.
"....expanding to 96 can't happen quick enough if all this blows up"
Chicos, are you talking about expanding the NCCA b-ball tourney, or the Big East to 96 teams???
Quote from: LittleMurs on March 24, 2010, 03:29:40 PM
I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say "as the $ continues to shift". One of the results of these changes will be that the BCS conferences will be in an even more dominate position regarding raking in the revenues for "amateur" athletic contests. Nothing attracts money like money.
That's exactly what I meant. As the $ to the BCS conferences grows, the gap grows between the BCS football schools and everyone else. Then we have to worry about more changes. This will not take 50 years, it may happen in 5 years, or maybe less.
Quote from: LittleMurs on March 24, 2010, 03:08:28 PM
The Sultan of South Wayne (may he forgive me for putting him in orange) is absolutely correct about this being entirely about TV markets. Now that I think of it, this might very well explain Tranghese's comments. As I stated above, the only LIKELY scenario out there is that the Big 10 picks up one team, and the affected conference replaces that one team. In this situation, Memphis might very well lose out to Houston, in spite of its vaunted basketball program. Houston plays division I football (I'm not sure who's the better football program between them and Memphis right now) and they are in the fourth biggest TV market in the country. That and concern over the residual seediness of the Calipari rein in Memphis may well put Houston ahead of Memphis for one open spot.
I'm fairly certain that UH's football program ranks about third in the mind of most Houstonites. Texas and A&M probably have far more viewers than "Cougar High." Houston is kind of like UWM with a football team.
It may help the BE a little...maybe even enough to justify splitting the pie another way...but it is hardly a game changer.
Quote from: LittleMurs on March 24, 2010, 03:50:45 PM
"Any realistic chance of something similar to this alignment happening?"
No, nada.
I used to be enamored with this prospect too, but discovered that It was not gonna happen. The reason? The schools involved don't want to do it. The feeling is that an all Catholic school conference risks seeming too parochial to have a wide marketing appeal. If that were true, the falloff of TV and other related revenue would doom the schools in the conference to mid-major status.
That makes total sense. Hadn't really thought of it that way. Thanks, Little Murs!
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 24, 2010, 05:02:02 PM
I'm fairly certain that UH's football program ranks about third in the mind of most Houstonites. Texas and A&M probably have far more viewers than "Cougar High." Houston is kind of like UWM with a football team.
Maybe, but after beating Oklahoma State last year in Stillwater and then beating Texas Tech in Houston, they're trying to come back to prominence. They have a long way to go from what they used to be in the 1970's when they were a national power, but they are making strides.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 24, 2010, 08:16:30 PM
Maybe, but after beating Oklahoma State last year in Stillwater and then beating Texas Tech in Houston, they're trying to come back to prominence. They have a long way to go from what they used to be in the 1970's when they were a national power, but they are making strides.
Cmon...a couple upsets and a minor bowl game? Please...the first good job offer their coach gets and he's gone. This isn't Boise State, which is in many ways the "state university" of Iowa. Houston, like many other of their ilk, are going to be decent...then terrible...then decent again. They just don't have the resources to compete on a consistent basis - they're a half step above Rice, but about three floors below Texas.
There is a reason why the Big 12 overlooked them.
In the "An interesting job just opened up" thread there is a lot of detail about just how pathetic Houston's basketball facilities are. And they ARE pathetic. At some point Houston's AD admits "we don't really have the facilities to compete in CUSA. Yikes! Penders says that his son a High school coach in the Houston area had a better locker room.
Quote from: LittleMurs on March 24, 2010, 10:14:01 PM
In the "An interesting job just opened up" thread there is a lot of detail about just how pathetic Houston's basketball facilities are. And they ARE pathetic. At some point Houston's AD admits "we don't really have the facilities to compete in CUSA. Yikes! Penders says that his son a High school coach in the Houston area had a better locker room.
I'm very well aware of the issues there, trust me. Mack has a tough job on his hands but he did wonders at Akron to get a new football stadium built there and he'll do wonders in Houston to get facilities done there as well.
This is a school that has had Heisman Trophy winners, Final Fours, National Championships in multiple sports, Olympic Gold Medal Athletes, professional golfers, etc....a ton of tradition, in the 4th largest city in the US, if they can get it going they will do well. They need a few breaks, especially with a conference but they've been there before and they can get there again if things break for them properly.
Unfortunately, they are absolutely going to 14 teams, but I agree with the rest. We will always be able to fill with great basketball teams, the whole question is whether or not the BE still has enough football to get renewed by the BCS in 2014. Unfortunately, hoops will suffer if we are no longer in the elite 6 conferences raking in BCS money.
One thing to consider in this discussion is the viability of the school, period. In a few years, the whole student credit system will likely be fundamentally altered, and this will affect the bottom line of the university, and not just the athletic department. We will be unable to use play money like we've been doing, because it simply won't be an option anymore, regardless of public demand or political will. There comes a point in every economy where the bubble bursts, reality sets in, and things like hunger dictate what things are necessities and what aren't. All I'm saying is that whatever factors undermined the status of the Loyolas and the San Franciscos out there, pale in comparison to what's coming down the track. A little off the topic of the Big East being in trouble, but something that definitely affects the whole picture.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 24, 2010, 05:02:02 PM
I'm fairly certain that UH's football program ranks about third in the mind of most Houstonites. Texas and A&M probably have far more viewers than "Cougar High." Houston is kind of like UWM with a football team.
It may help the BE a little...maybe even enough to justify splitting the pie another way...but it is hardly a game changer.
I lived in Houston for 12 years. You are absolutely correct, I would argue that UH football is behind A & M, UT, Texans, and any local high school team. I think the basketball team could gain some support, but the city as a whole is definitely a football city. The facilities and the area around the campus suck. There is a history of success there though so maybe if they get the right coaches and get in a better conference, they could turn it around. I still don't see UH football being important to the people in Houston.
What's lost in all this is how bad and overrated of a product most college football is
Quote from: LancesOtherNut on March 25, 2010, 07:46:19 AM
What's lost in all this is how bad and overrated of a product most college football is
In your eyes. Clearly the marketplace doesn't agree.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 25, 2010, 07:48:19 AM
In your eyes. Clearly the marketplace doesn't agree.
Sadly, this is fact.
Quote from: LancesOtherNut on March 25, 2010, 07:46:19 AM
What's lost in all this is how bad and overrated of a product most college football is
+1
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 24, 2010, 09:19:09 PM
Cmon...a couple upsets and a minor bowl game? Please...the first good job offer their coach gets and he's gone. This isn't Boise State, which is in many ways the "state university" of Iowa. Houston, like many other of their ilk, are going to be decent...then terrible...then decent again.
Dude. Boise is in Idaho.
Quote from: MOwarrior on March 25, 2010, 07:21:48 AM
One thing to consider in this discussion is the viability of the school, period. In a few years, the whole student credit system will likely be fundamentally altered, and this will affect the bottom line of the university, and not just the athletic department. We will be unable to use play money like we've been doing, because it simply won't be an option anymore, regardless of public demand or political will. There comes a point in every economy where the bubble bursts, reality sets in, and things like hunger dictate what things are necessities and what aren't. All I'm saying is that whatever factors undermined the status of the Loyolas and the San Franciscos out there, pale in comparison to what's coming down the track. A little off the topic of the Big East being in trouble, but something that definitely affects the whole picture.
Care to elaborate on what you mean by this?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 25, 2010, 02:14:24 PM
Care to elaborate on what you mean by this?
+1
the whole student credit system will likely be fundamentally altered??????
We will be unable to use play money like we've been doing??????
Sorry about the confusing post. It was inappropriate to change the subject of the thread. No need for that. What I was getting at, was all the junk going on outside of the college hoops universe, that, in my opinion, will have major ramifications. Here are my presuppositions: Insolvency is a fact, our economy is just moving along now through the debasement of fiat paper, and we'll be facing the music shortly. This means that not just the housing market will be affected like it was a year and a half ago, but everything will be affected, including multimillion dollar college sports programs. Again, I'm sorry to hijack the thread in a superbar direction. When I hear guys speculating about what's coming down the track in the way of realignment, I'm thinking to myself: Fellas, do you guys watch the news? There's a freight train coming from the other direction. My intention was just to add that tidbit, and I didn't make my point very well. (Plus, I could be wrong, as well.)