Three and a foul. IU goes down at home.
Early Christmas present for Tommy and his IU faithful; hee, hee, hee.
If it was the point guard who couldn't resist fouling on a 3 late in a game, I feel like I've seen this before somewhere.
Quote from: 79Warrior on December 22, 2009, 07:51:35 PM
Three and a foul. IU goes down at home.
Again...we should have NO TROUBLE BEATING PITTSBURGH THIS YEAR!! ZERO! ;D
Doc's kid gets fouled with IU up 2...misses both free throws. Loyola comes down, Doc's kid fouls Loyola player that takes 3 pointer and makes it...plus free throw. Doc's kid then goes down and gets fouled again...and misses both free throws.
Ouch.
IU trailed by 24 at one point before taking the lead with about 2 minutes to go.
Meanwhile, DePaul is losing by 11 to Florida Gulf Coast right now late in the second half...does Jerry make it through the season?
Florida lost at home tonight to South Alabama. Good stuff.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 22, 2009, 07:58:45 PM
IU trailed by 24 at one point before taking the lead with about 2 minutes to go.
Meanwhile, DePaul is losing by 11 to Florida Gulf Coast right now late in the second half...does Jerry make it through the season?
'Your' II, II team absolutely blows.
Jerry - why not keep him this season? He should have been fired long, long ago. It wouldn't be any more bizarre than the fact he's still around today. Obviously the old man has some disturbing dirt on someone.
Will Cal take down KU?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 22, 2009, 07:58:45 PM
Again...we should have NO TROUBLE BEATING PITTSBURGH THIS YEAR!! ZERO! ;D
Doc's kid gets fouled with IU up 2...misses both free throws. Loyola comes down, Doc's kid fouls Loyola player that takes 3 pointer and makes it...plus free throw. Doc's kid then goes down and gets fouled again...and misses both free throws.
Ouch.
IU trailed by 24 at one point before taking the lead with about 2 minutes to go.
Meanwhile, DePaul is losing by 11 to Florida Gulf Coast right now late in the second half...does Jerry make it through the season?
Florida lost at home tonight to South Alabama. Good stuff.
I think Crean will get another pass this season from the IU faithful. Next season the pressure will increase on TC. The fans will become more vocal if he does not produce a better product on the court. Could get pretty interesting in Blomington.
Can't see why DePaul would do anything to Wainwright this year if they didn't after last year's unblemished record. My understanding is the administration cares more about the buyout money than they do about their basketball program plunging into despair.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 22, 2009, 07:58:45 PM
Again...we should have NO TROUBLE BEATING PITTSBURGH THIS YEAR!! ZERO! ;D
Doc's kid gets fouled with IU up 2...misses both free throws. Loyola comes down, Doc's kid fouls Loyola player that takes 3 pointer and makes it...plus free throw. Doc's kid then goes down and gets fouled again...and misses both free throws.
Ouch.
Chico is like clock work. Has there ever been ONE anti-Crean post where you haven't jumped at his defense? He bailed on MU, and now many people (myself included) enjoy seeing him take his lumps. It's kinda the whole idea...we cheer and support the current coaches and players. If you leave for a "better job", to hell with ya. Must you always run to his defense?
Your right, Jeremiah missed some free throws down the stretch. In this instance, you blame the loss and the missed free throws on the kid. I have a feeling if Marquette loses a game in similar fashion, you'll piss and moan that Buzz isn't devoting enough time to FT's in practice.
Just wait... ::)
I, for one, would love to see TC fail. Not because he's a bad coach (which he is) or because he screwed over Marquette, but because he isn't a decent human being.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 22, 2009, 07:58:45 PM
Again...we should have NO TROUBLE BEATING PITTSBURGH THIS YEAR!! ZERO! ;D
Doc's kid gets fouled with IU up 2...misses both free throws. Loyola comes down, Doc's kid fouls Loyola player that takes 3 pointer and makes it...plus free throw. Doc's kid then goes down and gets fouled again...and misses both free throws.
Ouch.
IU trailed by 24 at one point before taking the lead with about 2 minutes to go.
Meanwhile, DePaul is losing by 11 to Florida Gulf Coast right now late in the second half...does Jerry make it through the season?
Florida lost at home tonight to South Alabama. Good stuff.
Don't know if we'll beat Pitt but evidently the Loyola (MD) Greyhounds and the Boston Terriers would.
"Harvey finished with 25 points, five assists and four rebounds, and Jamal Barney scored 13 for the Greyhounds (6-5), who raced out to a 15-0 lead and led by 24 in the first half.
It was Loyola's first victory over a Big Ten opponent, having lost their past seven tries."
And that was against an Indiana team...at home...with a McDonald's All-American...and Indiana's Mr. Basketball.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on December 22, 2009, 10:07:57 PM
"Harvey finished with 25 points, five assists and four rebounds, and Jamal Barney scored 13 for the Greyhounds (6-5), who raced out to a 15-0 lead and led by 24 in the first half.
It was Loyola's first victory over a Big Ten opponent, having lost their past seven tries."
And that was against an Indiana team...at home...with a McDonald's All-American...and Indiana's Mr. Basketball.
With that said, it must be the coach's fault.
It couldn't happen to a nicer guy!
I wish our great MU faithful would just let the Crean situation fade from memory.
I share some of your contempt and anger at the guy----however, he is gone and its way past time
to let this go. Some of the hostility toward Crean is building into a vendetta-----and for a program that hopes to maintain itself and a high level vendettas are counter productive.
Crean helped the program get back its direction and prestige. I disagree with the way he chose to leave the program and I agree that he is lacking in integrity and class. However, his tenure is finished and to harp on this forever is unwise.
Lets just hope that the program continues to prosper and that Buzz develops into a solid leader.
Quote from: Jay Bee on December 22, 2009, 08:11:11 PM
'Your' II, II team absolutely blows.
Jerry - why not keep him this season? He should have been fired long, long ago. It wouldn't be any more bizarre than the fact he's still around today. Obviously the old man has some disturbing dirt on someone.
I agree, that's why I picked them to finish 10th in the Big Ten, maybe 9th. Next year NIT, the year after NCAA.
Quote from: MUBasketball on December 22, 2009, 08:55:48 PM
Chico is like clock work. Has there ever been ONE anti-Crean post where you haven't jumped at his defense? He bailed on MU, and now many people (myself included) enjoy seeing him take his lumps. It's kinda the whole idea...we cheer and support the current coaches and players. If you leave for a "better job", to hell with ya. Must you always run to his defense?
Your right, Jeremiah missed some free throws down the stretch. In this instance, you blame the loss and the missed free throws on the kid. I have a feeling if Marquette loses a game in similar fashion, you'll piss and moan that Buzz isn't devoting enough time to FT's in practice.
Just wait... ::)
Actually there have been plenty of anti-Crean posts that I have written.....like clockwork, have you ever bothered to read them? ;D I just find these posts funny. I'm still waiting for the weekly threads that Saint Louis University lost tonight to XYZ school....afterall, Rick Majerus left us high and dry (like Crean) but did it even later in the off season giving us no chance at a good replacement.....and he didn't even have the good manners to give us a good reach around (not one NCAA appearance, no Final Four, nothing). But somehow I never see those posts. Or USC lost tonight, afterall Kevin O'Neill left us in a lurch and then proceeded to crap on the university time and time again after he left. LOL
Who said I'm running to his defense? IU lost, to a crap team. They came back, should have won, but didn't. They blew the game in the first half. Where was I defending anyone? Let me ask you, where are your posts of admonition on the same people on the other side? Or do your motherly comments only apply to one side of the debate? Sure seems that way. Knock me over with a feather the first time you come on here chastising someone for starting a thread that IU lost a game....you know you won't....doesn't the same rule apply? Of course it doesn't, because you hate the guy and are hypocritical. You apply two different standards. That's fine, but guess what...I'm not that bitter like you guys are getting my jollies off watching someone else lose.
And no, I didn't blame the loss on the free throws at all....like clockwork, did you bother to read what I said? IU was down 24 points at one point, which I said....you don't get down 24 points because you missed free throws, you get down 24 points because you played like crap. But yes, I was accurate in saying IU had the lead at the end, the kid missed 2 free throws, then fouled a kid on a 4 point play, then missed 2 more free throws....if any of this was not correct, please clarify...thanks.
Quote from: The Pickle on December 22, 2009, 08:58:30 PM
I, for one, would love to see TC fail. Not because he's a bad coach (which he is) or because he screwed over Marquette, but because he isn't a decent human being.
I heard he keeps kids locked in the closet for hours and pushes old ladies down the stairs.
Quote from: jefffla01 on December 22, 2009, 11:00:38 PM
vendettas are counter productive.
Don Corleone would respectfully disagree...
"I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse"...Don Corleone to Johnny Fontane
"You can act like a man! [slap] What's the matter with you?"...Don Corleone to Johnny Fontane
Sal: "Tom, can you get me off the hook? For old times' sake?" Tom: "Can't do it Sally"
"It's a Sicilian message. It means Luca Brasi sleeps with the fishes."...Clemenza to Sonny
"But I'm a superstitious man. And if some unlucky accident should befall him - If he should get shot in the head by a police officer, or if he should hang himself in his jail cell - or if he's struck by a bolt of lightning, them I'm going to blame some of the people in this room, and that I do not forgive."...Don Corleone to the other Dons
Sonny: "How's Paulie?" Clemenza: "Oh, Paulie? You won't see him no more."
I will always take an extreme amount of pleasure in watching Tom Crean fail, as I wish him nothing but total misery in life. I admit I'm a bitter person. I can hold a grudge forever. Today was a great Christmas gift for me.
Quote from: MUsoxfan on December 23, 2009, 12:57:53 AM
I will always take an extreme amount of pleasure in watching Tom Crean fail, as I wish him nothing but total misery in life. I admit I'm a bitter person. I can hold a grudge forever. Today was a great Christmas gift for me.
What are you bitter about? I guess that's the thing I don't understand. All those that are so bitter are the same people that hated him as a person, think he sucked as a coach, think he sucked as a recruiter.....you should be happy as clams that he's gone with all this bitterness.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 23, 2009, 02:49:27 AM
What are you bitter about? I guess that's the thing I don't understand. All those that are so bitter are the same people that hated him as a person, think he sucked as a coach, think he sucked as a recruiter.....you should be happy as clams that he's gone with all this bitterness.
Chico
I have no idea as to the stories of him being a supreme prick but I am still dismayed at the utter lack of class or respect he demonstrated in leaving MU. In particular, the lack of courtesy to HIS players is mind boggling. What is so difficult about asking IU to sit on the news for 24 hours so he could properly debrief his players and his employer. It is outrageous the team members had to hear about his departure from ESPN. I live in a world that demands team work so the stories I have heard regarding his self-centered behavior sickens me. If the manner in which he handled his departure from MU is indicative there is probably credence to the many stories about his ego.
Depaul does in fact lose to Florida Gulf Coast, 64-61. Depaul may win 1 game in BE play and Wainwright will be history. Can't continue to go down this path, can they?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 22, 2009, 11:06:40 PM
I'm still waiting for the weekly threads that Saint Louis University lost tonight to XYZ school....afterall, Rick Majerus left us high and dry (like Crean) but did it even later in the off season giving us no chance at a good replacement.....and he didn't even have the good manners to give us a good reach around (not one NCAA appearance, no Final Four, nothing). But somehow I never see those posts. Or USC lost tonight, afterall Kevin O'Neill left us in a lurch and then proceeded to crap on the university time and time again after he left. LOL
Neither one of those guys are complete phonies. Crean is.
I, for one, have ripped Rick a new one for both the way he left and the timing of his departure on several occasions. Furthermore, I know Rick on more than just a fan/coach level. What he did to MU was both ill-timed and self-centered.
Indiana has too much talent on the team to lose, AT HOME, to a team like Loyola Maryland. Either TC's kids are not as good originally thought or he is not doing a good job preparing them for games and coaching in the game.
It's hard to take joy in IU losing these days... first off, they've been doing a lot of that recently, and secondly they're just not that good. I understand the whole wanting TC to fall on his face and IU should have one that game, but when a mediocre team loses to another mediocre team, is that really worth gloating about?
If TC was coaching at Radford, would you be talking about that barn-burning loss to William & Mary last night?
Quote from: Benny B on December 23, 2009, 08:47:13 AM
It's hard to take joy in IU losing these days... first off, they've been doing a lot of that recently, and secondly they're just not that good. I understand the whole wanting TC to fall on his face and IU should have one that game, but when a mediocre team loses to another mediocre team, is that really worth gloating about?
If TC was coaching at Radford, would you be talking about that barn-burning loss to William & Mary last night?
When was the last time Radford had a top 10 recruiting class or a McDonald's AA like this years IU team? Sorry, losing to the Loyola Marylands and the Boston Universitys of the world this far into Crean's tenure is an embarassment to Indiana. The natives are getting restless.
As is now crystal clear, Crean can only walk on water if it's frozen or DWade is pulling him along.
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 23, 2009, 03:12:36 AM
Chico
I have no idea as to the stories of him being a supreme prick but I am still dismayed at the utter lack of class or respect he demonstrated in leaving MU. In particular, the lack of courtesy to HIS players is mind boggling. What is so difficult about asking IU to sit on the news for 24 hours so he could properly debrief his players and his employer. It is outrageous the team members had to hear about his departure from ESPN. I live in a world that demands team work so the stories I have heard regarding his self-centered behavior sickens me. If the manner in which he handled his departure from MU is indicative there is probably credence to the many stories about his ego.
I think this pretty much sums it up. No one who is NOT associated with the Athletic Department should be that bitter, except for the tangential connection of having graduated from the same school that Crean coached. A person is properly bitter if he was personally screwed, I think. (And the players were most definitely screwed in having to hear about his departure from ESPN while he called Marquette's recruits from a Marquette telephone to tell them he wished to recruit them from Indiana.) What anyone should/could be, even people who have no connection to Marquette, is utterly disgusted at the personality that is Tom Crean.
And, hence, enjoy when a egotistical maniac falls on his face. The same way we would and do enjoy it when Bo Ryan falls on his face. (Or fill-in-the-blank politician.)
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 23, 2009, 09:02:25 AM
When was the last time Radford had a top 10 recruiting class or a McDonald's AA like this years IU team? Sorry, losing to the Loyola Marylands and the Boston Universitys of the world this far into Crean's tenure is an embarrassment to Indiana. The natives are getting restless.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I would suspect that this isn't the first time an AA has been on a poor team and it probably won't be the last time that a nationally-ranked recruiting class fails to live up to expectations. I'm not buying the hype... IU just plain sucks.
Also, IU started embarrassing itself years before TC arrived... I have enough IU grads amongst my in-laws and friends to start my own Hoosier Alumni Association, and I can tell you, most of the natives stopped caring a long time ago.
It's just a matter of time before the legend that is TC is lost into oblivion. There's no need to chronicle every step of the downfall, just sit back and enjoy the view.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 22, 2009, 07:58:45 PM
Again...we should have NO TROUBLE BEATING PITTSBURGH THIS YEAR!! ZERO! ;D
Gee Chicos, if we lose to Pitt does that mean we're a worse team than IU?
Or does it mean Buzz is a worse coach than TC?
You're setting this up so much, I'm just trying to figure out what preposterous statement you'll make if we do happen to lose.
The fact that you can't see your own overly pessimistic views of Buzz is kinda' funny. Yes, you're "just being honest", and you think you're evaluating him without prejudices, but it's apparent to about everyone that you're not. Sure Lenny and Hayward seem to have a personal vendetta against you, but some of what they say is actually accurate.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 23, 2009, 09:42:52 AM
Gee Chicos, if we lose to Pitt does that mean we're a worse team than IU?
Or does it mean Buzz is a worse coach than TC?
Well, UW-GB is better than Duke by that logic so I'd say yes. :D
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 23, 2009, 09:42:52 AM
Gee Chicos, if we lose to Pitt does that mean we're a worse team than IU?
Or does it mean Buzz is a worse coach than TC?
You're setting this up so much, I'm just trying to figure out what preposterous statement you'll make if we do happen to lose.
The fact that you can't see your own overly pessimistic views of Buzz is kinda' funny. Yes, you're "just being honest", and you think you're evaluating him without prejudices, but it's apparent to about everyone that you're not. Sure Lenny and Hayward seem to have a personal vendetta against you, but some of what they say is actually accurate.
I'll boil it down.
Chicos is the "I told you so" guy on this board. Every board has one, and Chicos is ours.
We have other "I told you so" guys on this board, but few are as correct as often as Chicos (see HAYWARD, MR., and Tap, Lenny's)
Quote from: MUsoxfan on December 23, 2009, 12:57:53 AM
I will always take an extreme amount of pleasure in watching Tom Crean fail, as I wish him nothing but total misery in life. I admit I'm a bitter person. I can hold a grudge forever. Today was a great Christmas gift for me.
+1
I know I shouldn't care and I liked Crean fine while he was here, but I sure like to see him lose now. And I can't tell you why I don't feel the same way about Majerus or O'Neill, which would, as Chico points out, be perfectly logical. I actually root for O'Neill (probably because I feel like he is the guy who actually rescued Marquette from basketball oblivion) and I am ambivalent about Majerus.
Ive said this before Iu's recruiting class is not very good. the fact the it was top 10 or top 15 or whatever had to do with a few different things. One of which was sheer size and the other being that it was feel good story of Tommy naismith resurrecting a once proud fallen giant. that boosted their ranking more than a few notches.
However, when one looks at the class they have two very solid players in Creek and Watford, those two could play for anyone and will be good for 4 years ala a Wesley or Jerel. the rest of the class is made up of the very same type of players that infuriated people at MU. that stiff Capobianco would probably have signed with MU had TC stayed. Hulls and the rest of that class are no different than guys like Acker, Lott, Hazel, Menard and Kinsella
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 23, 2009, 03:12:36 AM
Chico
I have no idea as to the stories of him being a supreme prick but I am still dismayed at the utter lack of class or respect he demonstrated in leaving MU. In particular, the lack of courtesy to HIS players is mind boggling. What is so difficult about asking IU to sit on the news for 24 hours so he could properly debrief his players and his employer. It is outrageous the team members had to hear about his departure from ESPN. I live in a world that demands team work so the stories I have heard regarding his self-centered behavior sickens me. If the manner in which he handled his departure from MU is indicative there is probably credence to the many stories about his ego.
I don't disagree with you....but I ask you, was Kevin O'Neill's departure less PRICKISH? When he's wearing a Tennessee sweatshirt among MU fans and rubbing it their faces? How do you think New Orleans fans felt about Buzz Williams leaving and the way he did it?
Most coaching departures leave fans jilted, bitter, resentful, etc.
Very few come off as, what a great guy. Whether it was Brian Kelly last week, Tom Crean, Ben Howland, Sean Miller, Tony Bennett, etc.....fans will criticize to the nth degree how it was done. And if people already had a burr up their ass for the coach, then they will find even more reason to hate how it was done.
Quote from: Fullodds on December 23, 2009, 08:44:17 AM
Indiana has too much talent on the team to lose, AT HOME, to a team like Loyola Maryland. Either TC's kids are not as good originally thought or he is not doing a good job preparing them for games and coaching in the game.
Florida has too much talent on that team to lose, AT HOME, to a team like South Alabama last night.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 23, 2009, 09:42:52 AM
Gee Chicos, if we lose to Pitt does that mean we're a worse team than IU?
Or does it mean Buzz is a worse coach than TC?
You're setting this up so much, I'm just trying to figure out what preposterous statement you'll make if we do happen to lose.
The fact that you can't see your own overly pessimistic views of Buzz is kinda' funny. Yes, you're "just being honest", and you think you're evaluating him without prejudices, but it's apparent to about everyone that you're not. Sure Lenny and Hayward seem to have a personal vendetta against you, but some of what they say is actually accurate.
Rocky, I'm just playing the same game everyone else is.
If Crean sucked as a coach, human being and recruiter....than the guy we have now should yiield BETTER results than Crean did since he's a better coach, better human being and better recruiter. Simple logic. ;D
If really crappy coach and recruiter can beat Pitt on a neutral court, then by all means great coach and great recruiter should have ZERO PROBLEM beating PITT AT HOME!
Quote from: CTWarrior on December 23, 2009, 11:30:45 AM
+1
I know I shouldn't care and I liked Crean fine while he was here, but I sure like to see him lose now. And I can't tell you why I don't feel the same way about Majerus or O'Neill, which would, as Chico points out, be perfectly logical. I actually root for O'Neill (probably because I feel like he is the guy who actually rescued Marquette from basketball oblivion) and I am ambivalent about Majerus.
That's what I find so interesting from a psychological point of view.
O'Neill...complete dick in public, represented the university poorly, two losing seasons, took us to the Sweet 16, only stayed 5 years and crapped on alums and the university constantly. Left for a WOMEN'S COLLEGE BASKETBALL SCHOOL. No bitterness from fans. (hey, he drank with them and played golf)
Majerus...had his own issues, never even made the NCAAs, left MU high and dry in the Summer where MU could get no real good coach. Coached a whopping 3 years. LEFT TO BECOME AN ASSISTANT WITH THE #$^# BUCKS. No bitterness
Crean....dick in private but mostly vanilla in public (didn't drink, didn't publicly cheat on his wife, etc), stayed 9 years (longer than anyone since McGuire), took MU to Final Four, got MU in Big East, never a losing season, 98% graduation rate, got MU more publicity than ANYONE has ever at MU not named McGuire, Al McGuire Center takes in 70% of building donations during Final Four year, etc, etc. LEFT TO GO TO ONE OF THE FIVE GREATEST PROGRAMS IN NCAA HISTORY. Actually HIRED Buzz Williams (who those so bitter about Crean ironically love) to MU and pushed Buzz to be head coach at MU. COMPLETE BITTERNESS
I find it fascinating.
Makes for an interesting psychological case study.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 23, 2009, 12:30:10 PM
That's what I find so interesting from a psychological point of view.
O'Neill...complete dick in public, represented the university poorly, two losing seasons, took us to the Sweet 16, only stayed 5 years and crapped on alums and the university constantly. Left for a WOMEN'S COLLEGE BASKETBALL SCHOOL. No bitterness from fans. (hey, he drank with them and played golf)
Majerus...had his own issues, never even made the NCAAs, left MU high and dry in the Summer where MU could get no real good coach. Coached a whopping 3 years. LEFT TO BECOME AN ASSISTANT WITH THE #$^# BUCKS. No bitterness
Crean....dick in private but mostly vanilla in public (didn't drink, didn't publicly cheat on his wife, etc), stayed 9 years (longer than anyone since McGuire), took MU to Final Four, got MU in Big East, never a losing season, 98% graduation rate, got MU more publicity than ANYONE has ever at MU not named McGuire, Al McGuire Center takes in 70% of building donations during Final Four year, etc, etc. LEFT TO GO TO ONE OF THE FIVE GREATEST PROGRAMS IN NCAA HISTORY. Actually HIRED Buzz Williams (who those so bitter about Crean ironically love) to MU and pushed Buzz to be head coach at MU. COMPLETE BITTERNESS
I find it fascinating.
Makes for an interesting psychological case study.
Completely agree with your points.
And now Chicos delivers the rare quadruple-post. Nice.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 23, 2009, 12:18:06 PM
Florida has too much talent on that team to lose, AT HOME, to a team like South Alabama last night.
Upsets happen. However, Indiana isn't getting upset. They are just bad, plain and simple. IU should not be losing to teams like this on a regular basis given their "stellar" recruiting classes (which you have trumpeted over and over as being better than Buzz's)
Yes, most fans feel "jilted, bitter, resentful, etc." after a coach leaves but that doesn't mean that all coaching departures are handled the same way. Brian Kelly was honest with his players, telling them that he was going to meet with ND and listen to what they had to say. TC took off in the middle of the night like a p*ssy and only talked to his players after they found out the surprising news on the TV (O'Neil & Majerus also handled their leavings like bit$hes). I thank Crean for what he did when he was here, but it is becoming more and more obvious that the guy is a total prick who got extremely lucky with Wade and is only a good recruiter when there is a lot of pt to sell. If TC ever makes another final four, I would be far beyond surprised. In 10 years, TC will be either be the coach at a mid-major or an assistant at an NBA or major college team.
If Buzz does not exceed what Crean did, sans Wade (congrats to TC for that, but let's be honest, that was lightning in a bottle), I would say that will be a huge disappointment.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 23, 2009, 12:30:10 PM
That's what I find so interesting from a psychological point of view.
O'Neill...complete dick in public, represented the university poorly, two losing seasons, took us to the Sweet 16, only stayed 5 years and crapped on alums and the university constantly. Left for a WOMEN'S COLLEGE BASKETBALL SCHOOL. No bitterness from fans. (hey, he drank
with them and played golf)
Please add:
Was lucky enough to serve as coach while DWade, whowas only offered by DePaul and Illinois State, fell into his lap.
Majerus...had his own issues, never even made the NCAAs, left MU high and dry in the Summer where MU could get no real good coach. Coached a whopping 3 years. LEFT TO BECOME AN ASSISTANT WITH THE #$^# BUCKS. No bitterness
Crean....dick in private but mostly vanilla in public (didn't drink, didn't publicly cheat on his wife, etc), stayed 9 years (longer than anyone since McGuire), took MU to Final Four, got MU in Big East, never a losing season, 98% graduation rate, got MU more publicity than ANYONE has ever at MU not named McGuire, Al McGuire Center takes in 70% of building donations during Final Four year, etc, etc. LEFT TO GO TO ONE OF THE FIVE GREATEST PROGRAMS IN NCAA HISTORY. Actually HIRED Buzz Williams (who those so bitter about Crean ironically love) to MU and pushed Buzz to be head coach at MU. COMPLETE BITTERNESS
I find it fascinating.
Makes for an interesting psychological case study.
Quote from: jmayer1 on December 23, 2009, 12:40:00 PM
Upsets happen. However, Indiana isn't getting upset. They are just bad, plain and simple. IU should not be losing to teams like this on a regular basis given their "stellar" recruiting classes (which you have trumpeted over and over as being better than Buzz's)
Yes, most fans feel "jilted, bitter, resentful, etc." after a coach leaves but that doesn't mean that all coaching departures are handled the same way. Brian Kelly was honest with his players, telling them that he was going to meet with ND and listen to what they had to say. TC took off in the middle of the night like a p*ssy and only talked to his players after they found out the surprising news on the TV (O'Neil & Majerus also handled their leavings like bit$hes). I thank Crean for what he did when he was here, but it is becoming more and more obvious that the guy is a total prick who got extremely lucky with Wade and is only a good recruiter when there is a lot of pt to sell. If TC ever makes another final four, I would be far beyond surprised. In 10 years, TC will be either be the coach at a mid-major or an assistant at an NBA or major college team.
If Buzz does not exceed what Crean did, sans Wade (congrats to TC for that, but let's be honest, that was lightning in a bottle), I would say that will be a huge disappointment.
No, actually I haven't. They've had ONE stellar recruiting class, not classes. Secondly, they had NO ONE ON THEIR team, other than that class....they didn't have a Big East 1st Conference pre season pick, for example.
This is why you guys make zero sense when you compare the two. It's one thing to have a top 15 recruiting class that also has juniors and seniors already there to show them the way, take up the leadership role, etc.
It's quite another to have a top 15 recruiting class and have no one else on the team that has ever started a game in their life.
So when you guys roll out the top recruiting class nonsense without those essential nuggets of information, you're being disingenious.
IU might as well had the death penalty, their roster last year returned ONE PLAYER with 29 minutes logged total in the season. Contemplate that for a second. It's going to take more than 1 top 15 recruiting class, it's going to take MANY because no one else was there, no seniors, no juniors, no starters, nothing.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 23, 2009, 12:30:10 PM
That's what I find so interesting from a psychological point of view.
O'Neill...complete dick in public, represented the university poorly, two losing seasons, took us to the Sweet 16, only stayed 5 years and crapped on alums and the university constantly. Left for a WOMEN'S COLLEGE BASKETBALL SCHOOL. No bitterness from fans. (hey, he drank with them and played golf)
Majerus...had his own issues, never even made the NCAAs, left MU high and dry in the Summer where MU could get no real good coach. Coached a whopping 3 years. LEFT TO BECOME AN ASSISTANT WITH THE #$^# BUCKS. No bitterness
Crean....dick in private but mostly vanilla in public (didn't drink, didn't publicly cheat on his wife, etc), stayed 9 years (longer than anyone since McGuire), took MU to Final Four, got MU in Big East, never a losing season, 98% graduation rate, got MU more publicity than ANYONE has ever at MU not named McGuire, Al McGuire Center takes in 70% of building donations during Final Four year, etc, etc. LEFT TO GO TO ONE OF THE FIVE GREATEST PROGRAMS IN NCAA HISTORY. Actually HIRED Buzz Williams (who those so bitter about Crean ironically love) to MU and pushed Buzz to be head coach at MU. COMPLETE BITTERNESS
I find it fascinating.
Makes for an interesting psychological case study.
I think time is a big factor here.
In 10 years, you will probably see a softening on Crean, especially if MU struggles.
The real haters will always hate, but the average poster who just has a bad taste in his mouth with wear out over time.
I love the "lucky enough to have Dwade" comments as well. Funny, Dwade doesn't seem to have all this bitterness about the guy that you guys do.
He's the one that got him, plain and simple. Great players make great coaches. Always been that way. If bad human being, bad recruiter, bad coach can land that type of talent, then I sure hope great human being, great coach, great recruiter can get lucky a few times, too.
Whether you guys like it or not, Crean and Wade are a package deal. I know some of you would ilke to put white out on your television screen and pretend that didn't happen, but it did. Along with Novak, Diener, etc. They came to play for Crean. So did Tyshawn Taylor.
I, too, will be very disappointed if Buzz doesn't equal what Crean did once the program was reestablished....that is, post season EVERY year (mostly NCAA), 95% + graduation rates, upper half of the Big East finishes, kids representing the school well, etc. I think Buzz can do it, I have every confidence he will.
Quote from: 2002mualum on December 23, 2009, 12:55:52 PM
I think time is a big factor here.
In 10 years, you will probably see a softening on Crean, especially if MU struggles.
The real haters will always hate, but the average poster who just has a bad taste in his mouth with wear out over time.
We'll see. This is by no means a perfect analogy, but I think Crean is a coaching equivalent to the corporate stoolie who is able to brown nose his way up the ladder despite his somewhat limited professional acumen, for whom the word "relationship" signifies only a means of leverage. (Of course, when a person is no longer useful, the relationship ends. Note how Crean's trumpeting of his friendship with Kelvin Sampson mysteriously ended on April 1, 2008.)
Everything with him comes off as plastic--the hairplugs, tanning, the personality drawn from self-help and bulls--- management theory books. Cetainly some of it is jealousy, but people hate to see a guy like that succeed.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 23, 2009, 09:53:13 AM
I'll boil it down.
Chicos is the "I told you so" guy on this board. Every board has one, and Chicos is ours.
We have other "I told you so" guys on this board, but few are as correct as often as Chicos (see HAYWARD, MR., and Tap, Lenny's)
So every board has ONE "I told you so guy". Except for the other "I told you so guys". Can't "boil it down" any better than that.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 23, 2009, 12:30:10 PM
That's what I find so interesting from a psychological point of view.
O'Neill...complete dick in public, represented the university poorly, two losing seasons, took us to the Sweet 16, only stayed 5 years and crapped on alums and the university constantly. Left for a WOMEN'S COLLEGE BASKETBALL SCHOOL. No bitterness from fans. (hey, he drank with them and played golf)
Majerus...had his own issues, never even made the NCAAs, left MU high and dry in the Summer where MU could get no real good coach. Coached a whopping 3 years. LEFT TO BECOME AN ASSISTANT WITH THE #$^# BUCKS. No bitterness
Crean....dick in private but mostly vanilla in public (didn't drink, didn't publicly cheat on his wife, etc), stayed 9 years (longer than anyone since McGuire), took MU to Final Four, got MU in Big East, never a losing season, 98% graduation rate, got MU more publicity than ANYONE has ever at MU not named McGuire, Al McGuire Center takes in 70% of building donations during Final Four year, etc, etc. LEFT TO GO TO ONE OF THE FIVE GREATEST PROGRAMS IN NCAA HISTORY. Actually HIRED Buzz Williams (who those so bitter about Crean ironically love) to MU and pushed Buzz to be head coach at MU. COMPLETE BITTERNESS
I find it fascinating.
Makes for an interesting psychological case study.
Agree with 100% with but still think Crean is a complete prick and enjoy seeing him lose... can't get over the phoniness and superlatives that spew from his mouth... the deflection on how bad his team was the other night to grades and effort and the references "restoration" project was pure crean at his finest...
So, does he now have a roster of academic All-Americans to add to his resume'? How about the one black sheep on the team that didn't measure up? Will he be encouraged to transfer so someone smarter can be brought in?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 23, 2009, 12:53:40 PM
No, actually I haven't. They've had ONE stellar recruiting class, not classes. Secondly, they had NO ONE ON THEIR team, other than that class....they didn't have a Big East 1st Conference pre season pick, for example.
This is why you guys make zero sense when you compare the two. It's one thing to have a top 15 recruiting class that also has juniors and seniors already there to show them the way, take up the leadership role, etc.
It's quite another to have a top 15 recruiting class and have no one else on the team that has ever started a game in their life.
So when you guys roll out the top recruiting class nonsense without those essential nuggets of information, you're being disingenious.
IU might as well had the death penalty, their roster last year returned ONE PLAYER with 29 minutes logged total in the season. Contemplate that for a second. It's going to take more than 1 top 15 recruiting class, it's going to take MANY because no one else was there, no seniors, no juniors, no starters, nothing.
You have stated multiple times that Crean's recruting class his first year and last year were better than Buzz's and that he already has 2 4-star guys for next year's class (his 4th).
Quit with the death penalty bs. They lost one scholarship for one year, that's it. On the day TC was hired, IU had 8 returning players. For one reason or another (housecreaining) nearly everyone left.
"they didn't have a Big East 1st Conference pre season pick, for example."
-Actually TC did have Jordan Crawford in the stable, however he couldn't convince him to stick around. MU currently has one impact player (Zar) left from the TC days and a couple of role players (Acker, Cubillan). You could argue that IU would be in a similar situation if Crawford didn't see right through what TC was trying to sell. So, the fact that MU has a couple of role players around this year gets TC off the leash for another year, but what about next year? Have you already started working on your excuses when IU stinks again? Shouldn't IU be better than MU nearly every year once the initial hurdle was passed based on TC's vast expertise?
TC should be lauded for getting Wade, but is that success indicative of how good of a coach TC was at MU? The year after the Final 4, TC couldn't get a team with 2 NBA players and several other useful guys into the NCAA (I think his worst coaching job at MU). I don't agree that you can't not link DW and TC. If MU was in a major conference (that didn't allow partial qualifiers) at that time, would TC have ever made the tourney at MU before getting run out of town? I dunnno, maybe, maybe not. The arguement could be made that Fr. Wild ultimately had more to do with DW landing at MU than TC as he allowed Flash into MU (at Crean's behest). There was really not much gamble for TC, if it didn't work out he could just move onto the next gig, but MU had a lot riding on that gamble and it paid off in spades.
Look, I know IU is one of your "alma maters" (what school isn't?) and I know a lot of people trash TC unnecessarily, but you stick up for the guy like he's your brother but take nearly every chance to sling digs at the guy who is currently here (I thank TC for that hire as well). You like to think you are the objective one, but you're not even close.
sorry, Chicos is THE "I told you so" guy.
feel me?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 23, 2009, 01:00:43 PM
I love the "lucky enough to have Dwade" comments as well. Funny, Dwade doesn't seem to have all this bitterness about the guy that you guys do.
He's the one that got him, plain and simple. Great players make great coaches. Always been that way. If bad human being, bad recruiter, bad coach can land that type of talent, then I sure hope great human being, great coach, great recruiter can get lucky a few times, too.
Whether you guys like it or not, Crean and Wade are a package deal. I know some of you would ilke to put white out on your television screen and pretend that didn't happen, but it did. Along with Novak, Diener, etc. They came to play for Crean. So did Tyshawn Taylor.
I, too, will be very disappointed if Buzz doesn't equal what Crean did once the program was reestablished....that is, post season EVERY year (mostly NCAA), 95% + graduation rates, upper half of the Big East finishes, kids representing the school well, etc. I think Buzz can do it, I have every confidence he will.
Why would he bitter? His coach didn't leave in the middle of the night.
Quote from: jmayer1 on December 23, 2009, 01:32:16 PM
You have stated multiple times that Crean's recruting class his first year and last year were better than Buzz's and that he already has 2 4-star guys for next year's class (his 4th).
Quit with the death penalty bs. They lost one scholarship for one year, that's it. On the day TC was hired, IU had 8 returning players. For one reason or another (housecreaining) nearly everyone left.
"they didn't have a Big East 1st Conference pre season pick, for example."
-Actually TC did have Jordan Crawford in the stable, however he couldn't convince him to stick around. MU currently has one impact player (Zar) left from the TC days and a couple of role players (Acker, Cubillan). You could argue that IU would be in a similar situation if Crawford didn't see right through what TC was trying to sell. So, the fact that MU has a couple of role players around this year gets TC off the leash for another year, but what about next year? Have you already started working on your excuses when IU stinks again? Shouldn't IU be better than MU nearly every year once the initial hurdle was passed based on TC's vast expertise?
TC should be lauded for getting Wade, but is that success indicative of how good of a coach TC was at MU? The year after the Final 4, TC couldn't get a team with 2 NBA players and several other useful guys into the NCAA (I think his worst coaching job at MU). I don't agree that you can't not link DW and TC. If MU was in a major conference (that didn't allow partial qualifiers) at that time, would TC have ever made the tourney at MU before getting run out of town? I dunnno, maybe, maybe not. The arguement could be made that Fr. Wild ultimately had more to do with DW landing at MU than TC as he allowed Flash into MU (at Crean's behest). There was really not much gamble for TC, if it didn't work out he could just move onto the next gig, but MU had a lot riding on that gamble and it paid off in spades.
Look, I know IU is one of your "alma maters" (what school isn't?) and I know a lot of people trash TC unnecessarily, but you stick up for the guy like he's your brother but take nearly every chance to sling digs at the guy who is currently here (I thank TC for that hire as well). You like to think you are the objective one, but you're not even close.
+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 23, 2009, 12:30:10 PM
That's what I find so interesting from a psychological point of view.
O'Neill...complete dick in public, represented the university poorly, two losing seasons, took us to the Sweet 16, only stayed 5 years and crapped on alums and the university constantly. Left for a WOMEN'S COLLEGE BASKETBALL SCHOOL. No bitterness from fans. (hey, he drank with them and played golf)
Majerus...had his own issues, never even made the NCAAs, left MU high and dry in the Summer where MU could get no real good coach. Coached a whopping 3 years. LEFT TO BECOME AN ASSISTANT WITH THE #$^# BUCKS. No bitterness
Crean....dick in private but mostly vanilla in public (didn't drink, didn't publicly cheat on his wife, etc), stayed 9 years (longer than anyone since McGuire), took MU to Final Four, got MU in Big East, never a losing season, 98% graduation rate, got MU more publicity than ANYONE has ever at MU not named McGuire, Al McGuire Center takes in 70% of building donations during Final Four year, etc, etc. LEFT TO GO TO ONE OF THE FIVE GREATEST PROGRAMS IN NCAA HISTORY. Actually HIRED Buzz Williams (who those so bitter about Crean ironically love) to MU and pushed Buzz to be head coach at MU. COMPLETE BITTERNESS
I find it fascinating.
Makes for an interesting psychological case study.
Actually, the case study has already been done and it's not one bit interesting... the good (or genius) of your legacy will always be overshadowed by the most controversial thing you've ever done. Examples: Michael Jackson, Brett Favre, Roman Polansky, Bobby Knight, Bill Clinton, George Bush, etc.
And speaking of... if you want fascinating and interesting, ask Bobby Knight what he thinks about IU being one of the top five basketball programs in history.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 23, 2009, 01:00:43 PM
I love the "lucky enough to have Dwade" comments as well. Funny, Dwade doesn't seem to have all this bitterness about the guy that you guys do.
He's the one that got him, plain and simple. Great players make great coaches. Always been that way. If bad human being, bad recruiter, bad coach can land that type of talent, then I sure hope great human being, great coach, great recruiter can get lucky a few times, too.
Whether you guys like it or not, Crean and Wade are a package deal. I know some of you would ilke to put white out on your television screen and pretend that didn't happen, but it did. Along with Novak, Diener, etc. They came to play for Crean. So did Tyshawn Taylor.
I, too, will be very disappointed if Buzz doesn't equal what Crean did once the program was reestablished....that is, post season EVERY year (mostly NCAA), 95% + graduation rates, upper half of the Big East finishes, kids representing the school well, etc. I think Buzz can do it, I have every confidence he will.
I think you're really missing the point of why people bring up Wade. It's a testament to the caliber of a coach Crean is without him. Crean will never have that type of player ever again and we've all seen what he has done without that type of talent...nothing too impressive.
Quote from: Benny B on December 23, 2009, 01:54:47 PM
Actually, the case study has already been done and it's not one bit interesting... the good (or genius) of your legacy will always be overshadowed by the most controversial thing you've ever done. Examples: Michael Jackson, Brett Favre, Roman Polansky, Bobby Knight, Bill Clinton, George Bush, etc.
What did Favre do to be included in that list? Go play for another team? Give me a break!
Two of those guys you mentioned were/are pedophiles!!
And to Chicos -- people here bring up Wade because Crean does at EVERY OPPORTUNITY...even recently being quoted telling his players how much money Wade is paid...as if he had anything to do with it.
Quote from: Cooby Snacks on December 23, 2009, 01:19:40 PM
We'll see. This is by no means a perfect analogy, but I think Crean is a coaching equivalent to the corporate stoolie who is able to brown nose his way up the ladder despite his somewhat limited professional acumen, for whom the word "relationship" signifies only a means of leverage. (Of course, when a person is no longer useful, the relationship ends. Note how Crean's trumpeting of his friendship with Kelvin Sampson mysteriously ended on April 1, 2008.)
Everything with him comes off as plastic--the hairplugs, tanning, the personality drawn from self-help and bulls--- management theory books. Cetainly some of it is jealousy, but people hate to see a guy like that succeed.
Certainly could be right.
But, if the "plastic jerk" does a pretty good job running the company I work at (and I reap the benefits), and the next guy who runs the company is a "good guy" but runs the company into the ground*... who do you think I'd rather work for?
People will forgive the "plastic" and "fake" stuff if the company is successful. Over time, that CEO will be remembered for his successes more than his "plastic", especially if the company struggles without him.
*please note, I don't think Buzz will run the team in the ground, I'm just using an analogy.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on December 23, 2009, 02:08:22 PM
What did Favre do to be included in that list? Go play for another team? Give me a break!
Two of those guys you mentioned were/are pedophiles!!
Although it appears that you misunderstood the point, you did an exquisite job of demonstrating it: Michael Jackson was one of the greatest singer & songwriters in the world, and amongst many, he shall forever be remembered as a pedophile.
Tom Crean, for all he did at and for MU, will always be remembered amongst many for leaving his guys high and dry in the middle of the night.
Right or wrong, that's just the way it is.
Crean couldn't give you the definition of class if you handed a Webster's to him.
Crean did great things at MU (even if people didnt like his coaching style, myself included) and eventually that will be rightfully rewarded, but for as much he did, the University did more for HIS career and HIS family and for Crean to leave literally in the middle of the night was bush league. Not saying he shouldnt take the job, hell, anyone would do the MU for IU trade especially in the condition IU was in. Its the way he left. A simple presser thanking MU and he would have a ton of support from MU fans at IU. That didnt happen and it is completely understandable and appropriate to root against him. However, to not acknowledge his successes at MU is being extremely shortsighted.
Quote from: MU1984 on December 23, 2009, 02:19:19 PM
Crean did great things at MU (even if people didnt like his coaching style, myself included) and eventually that will be rightfully rewarded, but for as much he did, the University did more for HIS career and HIS family and for Crean to leave literally in the middle of the night was bush league. Not saying he shouldnt take the job, hell, anyone would do the MU for IU trade especially in the condition IU was in. Its the way he left. A simple presser thanking MU and he would have a ton of support from MU fans at IU. That didnt happen and it is completely understandable and appropriate to root against him. However, to not acknowledge his successes at MU is being extremely shortsighted.
THIS.
Quote from: Benny B on December 23, 2009, 02:16:48 PM
Although it appears that you misunderstood the point, you did an exquisite job of demonstrating it: Michael Jackson was one of the greatest singer & songwriters in the world, and amongst many, he shall forever be remembered as a pedophile.
Tom Crean, for all he did at and for MU, will always be remembered amongst many for leaving his guys high and dry in the middle of the night.
Right or wrong, that's just the way it is.
I understood your point perfectly...I just don't think Favre belongs on the list.
But sleeping with and in appropriately touching children...or forcibly sodomizing 13 year old girls (Polansky)...is a helluva different than suiting up for the Minnesota Vikings!
And for the record, I don't care one iota how Crean left. I remember him as a phony jerkoff when he was here. That's his legacy!
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on December 23, 2009, 02:22:47 PM
And for the record, I don't care one iota how Crean left. I remember him as a phony jerkoff when he was here. That's his legacy!
There is a difference what YOU care about and what the majority of MU nation cares about. Most people were pissed at the WAY he left. Not because he left to go to IU or that he was a jerk while he was here. We all have our own Crean horror stories, but he was bringing in Ws and $s so we put up with it.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on December 23, 2009, 02:22:47 PM
I understood your point perfectly...I just don't think Favre belongs on the list.
But sleeping with and in appropriately touching children...or forcibly sodomizing 13 year old girls (Polansky)...is a helluva different than suiting up for the Minnesota Vikings!
And for the record, I don't care one iota how Crean left. I remember him as a phony jerkoff when he was here. That's his legacy!
Favre belongs on the list not because he shares character traits with the others, but because his "defection" (again, right or wrong) will be the one thing that will be at the forefront of many devoted and die-hard Packer fans' minds 10-20 years from now. Not the 1997 Super Bowl, not the infinite number of records he set in the green & gold, but for his "defection." (I, for one, was happy he went, should have "retired" sooner).
Then you're nothing but basketball whores. Some of us, Rican included, outted Crean as the phoney he is long before leaving MU was an option. Was clear for those of us who deal with people on a daily basis and have a little "gameday" experience. I speak for many who felt liberated on 4/1/08.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 23, 2009, 09:53:13 AM
I'll boil it down.
Chicos is the "I told you so" guy on this board. Every board has one, and Chicos is ours.
We have other "I told you so" guys on this board, but few are as correct as often as Chicos (see HAYWARD, MR., and Tap, Lenny's)
LOL. I think Denny Crane gets the honor, along with Mr. Hayward. But I'll take your slam...no issue.
I'd rather have that slam than be bitter each day like some people are on this board....as if they were jilted at the altar or didn't get asked out by the quarterback for prom and then hope he cracks up in a car crash years later. No way to live life, but some choose to do so.
Happy Holidays.
PS I told you so....Buzz will do well at Marquette (hope I'm right)
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 23, 2009, 01:30:20 PM
So, does he now have a roster of academic All-Americans to add to his resume'? How about the one black sheep on the team that didn't measure up? Will he be encouraged to transfer so someone smarter can be brought in?
Don't know, but from what I hear in the IU Athletic Department, the basketball team did extremely well with grades this first semester, a major change from the previous 5 years. One of the reasons he was hired was to also get the academics thing in order which was a major embarrassment to IU. They seemed to have turned that corner.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 23, 2009, 03:08:55 PM
Don't know, but from what I hear in the IU Athletic Department, the basketball team did extremely well with grades this first semester, a major change from the previous 5 years. One of the reasons he was hired was to also get the academics thing in order which was a major embarrassment to IU. They seemed to have turned that corner.
I heard the same thing....
DURING HIS PRESS CONFERENCE AFTER HE LOST TO LOYOLA!! I wonder why he brought that up?
Quote from: jmayer1 on December 23, 2009, 01:32:16 PM
You have stated multiple times that Crean's recruting class his first year and last year were better than Buzz's and that he already has 2 4-star guys for next year's class (his 4th).
Quit with the death penalty bs. They lost one scholarship for one year, that's it. On the day TC was hired, IU had 8 returning players. For one reason or another (housecreaining) nearly everyone left.
"they didn't have a Big East 1st Conference pre season pick, for example."
-Actually TC did have Jordan Crawford in the stable, however he couldn't convince him to stick around. MU currently has one impact player (Zar) left from the TC days and a couple of role players (Acker, Cubillan). You could argue that IU would be in a similar situation if Crawford didn't see right through what TC was trying to sell. So, the fact that MU has a couple of role players around this year gets TC off the leash for another year, but what about next year? Have you already started working on your excuses when IU stinks again? Shouldn't IU be better than MU nearly every year once the initial hurdle was passed based on TC's vast expertise?
TC should be lauded for getting Wade, but is that success indicative of how good of a coach TC was at MU? The year after the Final 4, TC couldn't get a team with 2 NBA players and several other useful guys into the NCAA (I think his worst coaching job at MU). I don't agree that you can't not link DW and TC. If MU was in a major conference (that didn't allow partial qualifiers) at that time, would TC have ever made the tourney at MU before getting run out of town? I dunnno, maybe, maybe not. The arguement could be made that Fr. Wild ultimately had more to do with DW landing at MU than TC as he allowed Flash into MU (at Crean's behest). There was really not much gamble for TC, if it didn't work out he could just move onto the next gig, but MU had a lot riding on that gamble and it paid off in spades.
Look, I know IU is one of your "alma maters" (what school isn't?) and I know a lot of people trash TC unnecessarily, but you stick up for the guy like he's your brother but take nearly every chance to sling digs at the guy who is currently here (I thank TC for that hire as well). You like to think you are the objective one, but you're not even close.
Show me all the slings I take at Buzz....should be easy since there are so many. Please, list them. I'll bet you could come up with
500,
100,
50, 10 pretty easily. Incidentally, I took my shots at Crean, too. Why do you never mention that? The only thing I've gotten on Buzz for was free throws, the use of timeouts, and seeming to take a few kids that were riskier than the reward. I would criticize Crean for scheduling, substitution patterns, etc, but those are ignored and now I'm his brother. ::)
The death penalty example is because they had one player left with 29 total DI minutes. It would be like starting a program from scratch. ONE PLAYER on the team with 29 minutes of experience. Think about it.
The only recruiting class I've compared to Buzz's is the one is playing now. Both were top 20 classes, IU's was ranked higher of the two but both are solid classes. The class after, MU's is better than IU's so why would I have stated that? Now, I did say the class that IU was in contention for following the next one could be huge if they get the players they are trying to get, but since that class isn't done I don't know how those comments would come about.
It seems to me some of you who hate Crean with every bone in your body don't like it when someone points out a few facts. That's all I'm doing. You don't like someone to rain on the bitterness parade.
Someone should create an organization called moveon.org for people to move on....we have a new coach, why keep harping on the old one?
OH, and it's entirely rational and possible to like both the current coach and the former coach, something that's also lost on so many people here.
Quote from: MU1984 on December 23, 2009, 02:19:19 PM, the University did more for HIS career and HIS family and for Crean to leave literally in the middle of the night was bush league. Not saying he shouldnt take the job, hell, anyone would do the MU for IU trade especially in the condition IU was in. Its the way he left.
And
Quote from: Benny B on December 23, 2009, 02:16:48 PM
Tom Crean, for all he did at and for MU, will always be remembered amongst many for leaving his guys high and dry in the middle of the night.
Where do you guys keep coming up with this "middle of the night" comment?
The timeline was that he accepted the job the morning of the 1st, scheduled an announcement for the next morning, left an urgent message with his boss--who was on a flight due to land by about 4:00 PM, called a team meeting AND met with the team before dinner that same day--before nightfall, no less middle of the night.
But what I really want to know is what you would declare to be reasonable? Call the FAA to place an emergency inflight call to Cottingham? Call the players out of class?
To me--reasonable seems to be exactly what Crean did--1. leave a message with Cottingham to call the minute he's on the ground and 2. schedule a team meeting after classes are done for the day.
Quote from: MU1984 on December 23, 2009, 02:19:19 PM
A simple presser thanking MU and he would have a ton of support from MU fans at IU. That didnt happen and it is completely understandable and appropriate to root against him.
Can you explain how people have more respect for O'Neill--who not only did NOT issue a simple presser thanking MU, but actually gave an interviews highly critical of MU, its administration and its fans?
While didn't praise MU when he left, he has also not made one iota of criticism either. O'Neill crapped on MU for years, and only when his career completely fell apart and MU looked like a step up again did he try to make nice.
Quote from: LAZER on December 23, 2009, 02:06:54 PM
I think you're really missing the point of why people bring up Wade. It's a testament to the caliber of a coach Crean is without him. Crean will never have that type of player ever again and we've all seen what he has done without that type of talent...nothing too impressive.
And that can be said about so many coaches. How many titles did Phil Jackson win without Kobe or Jordan? The examples are endless.
Great players make great coaches. Whether Crean gets another player like Wade, who knows. The point was....HE DID get him. College coaching is also about recruiting. He who has the best players usually wins.
I get the point entirely, but I'm happy as hell that this really crappy recruiter, really crappy coach and horrible Hitler like person was able to get Wade because it gave all of us one of our best MU memories ever (for some of the younger folks, THE BEST MU memory ever). Let's hope Buzz can land someone like that.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 23, 2009, 02:48:50 PM
Then you're nothing but basketball whores. Some of us, Rican included, outted Crean as the phoney he is long before leaving MU was an option. Was clear for those of us who deal with people on a daily basis and have a little "gameday" experience. I speak for many who felt liberated on 4/1/08.
Wait, does this mean you guys are now the I TOLD YOU SO guys? LOL. Don't let Hards Alumni see this post.
And look how many people were liberated when the biggest douche to ever coach at MU left to coach at Tennessee. It's funny, different strokes for different folks. If the coach is a douche but plays golf and yuks it up at the Harp or Turners....well he's a douche but a swell guy, too. If the couch is a douche but doesn't give the proper stroke job to the right alums, well then he's just a douche.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on December 23, 2009, 03:17:08 PM
I heard the same thing....DURING HIS PRESS CONFERENCE AFTER HE LOST TO LOYOLA!! I wonder why he brought that up?
Because he was brought in to do several things
1) Clean up the mess - check
2) Get kids to go to class, graduate, become good citizens - check
3) Win basketball games - still in process
Like any project that anyone in big business works on, you have markers to meet and time lines in which to do them. That's probably why he brought it up, because they've made progress in the areas that are dear to the university but not the average sports fan. They have not made enough progress on the court, but they will.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 23, 2009, 03:06:18 PM
LOL. I think Denny Crane gets the honor, along with Mr. Hayward. But I'll take your slam...no issue.
I'd rather have that slam than be bitter each day like some people are on this board....as if they were jilted at the altar or didn't get asked out by the quarterback for prom and then hope he cracks up in a car crash years later. No way to live life, but some choose to do so.
Happy Holidays.
PS I told you so....Buzz will do well at Marquette (hope I'm right)
It's not a slam. It is what it is, an accurate label. :-D
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 23, 2009, 03:34:46 PM
And
Where do you guys keep coming up with this "middle of the night" comment?
The timeline was that he accepted the job the morning of the 1st, scheduled an announcement for the next morning, left an urgent message with his boss--who was on a flight due to land by about 4:00 PM, called a team meeting AND met with the team before dinner that same day--before nightfall, no less middle of the night.
But what I really want to know is what you would declare to be reasonable? Call the FAA to place an emergency inflight call to Cottingham? Call the players out of class?
To me--reasonable seems to be exactly what Crean did--1. leave a message with Cottingham to call the minute he's on the ground and 2. schedule a team meeting after classes are done for the day.
Can you explain how people have more respect for O'Neill--who not only did NOT issue a simple presser thanking MU, but actually gave an interviews highly critical of MU, its administration and its fans?
While didn't praise MU when he left, he has also not made one iota of criticism either. O'Neill crapped on MU for years, and only when his career completely fell apart and MU looked like a step up again did he try to make nice.
Ooooh..... +1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Hopefully I had as many zeros as Lenny.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 23, 2009, 03:18:23 PM
Show me all the slings I take at Buzz....should be easy since there are so many. Please, list them. I'll bet you could come up with 500, 100, 50, 10 pretty easily. Incidentally, I took my shots at Crean, too. Why do you never mention that? The only thing I've gotten on Buzz for was free throws, the use of timeouts, and seeming to take a few kids that were riskier than the reward. I would criticize Crean for scheduling, substitution patterns, etc, but those are ignored and now I'm his brother. ::)
The death penalty example is because they had one player left with 29 total DI minutes. It would be like starting a program from scratch. ONE PLAYER on the team with 29 minutes of experience. Think about it.
The only recruiting class I've compared to Buzz's is the one is playing now. Both were top 20 classes, IU's was ranked higher of the two but both are solid classes. The class after, MU's is better than IU's so why would I have stated that? Now, I did say the class that IU was in contention for following the next one could be huge if they get the players they are trying to get, but since that class isn't done I don't know how those comments would come about.
It seems to me some of you who hate Crean with every bone in your body don't like it when someone points out a few facts. That's all I'm doing. You don't like someone to rain on the bitterness parade.
Someone should create an organization called moveon.org for people to move on....we have a new coach, why keep harping on the old one?
OH, and it's entirely rational and possible to like both the current coach and the former coach, something that's also lost on so many people here.
I think the problem is that you have annointed yourself his public defender ;)
oooo lucky post 777!!!
It seems like there are three groups of haters.
1: People who are mad because 'he left for a better school.'
My question about these people is what percentage of you have ever spent 9 years doing the same job? After 9 years if you got an offer from a company that had better name recognition would you have considered it?
2: People who are mad becasue of the way he did it. (he should have told his players first since he controlled every media leak in indiana, he signed his contract to recently as if coaches didn't do that all the time, he turned his back on his players you know, because coaches who are nice people only leave when they have no seniors)
These people would have a lot more credability if there weren't 1000's of them every time any coach leaves any school. It's just amazing how every coach in the history of college sports who ever left did it in a jerkish way.
3. People who hate him because he's a jerk based on something they heard.
He's supposed to be a jerk. MOST coaches are. There are plenty of times it helps.
But raw i know one guy who works for some school and knows a guy in the athletic department who says that the general feeling towards the coach is that he's nice.
Well good for that freaking place. Don't care.
Not a TC hater, but this is still funny.
Quote from: RawdogDX on December 23, 2009, 04:48:25 PM
It seems like there are three groups of haters.
1: People who are mad because 'he left for a better school.'
My question about these people is what percentage of you have ever spent 9 years doing the same job? After 9 years if you got an offer from a company that had better name recognition would you have considered it?
2: People who are mad becasue of the way he did it. (he should have told his players first since he controlled every media leak in indiana, he signed his contract to recently as if coaches didn't do that all the time, he turned his back on his players you know, because coaches who are nice people only leave when they have no seniors)
These people would have a lot more credability if there weren't 1000's of them every time any coach leaves any school. It's just amazing how every coach in the history of college sports who ever left did it in a jerkish way.
3. People who hate him because he's a jerk based on something they heard.
He's supposed to be a jerk. MOST coaches are. There are plenty of times it helps.
But raw i know one guy who works for some school and knows a guy in the athletic department who says that the general feeling towards the coach is that he's nice.
Well good for that freaking place. Don't care.
You forgot:
4. People who are good judges of character.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on December 23, 2009, 04:59:19 PM
You forgot:
4. People who are good judges of character.
I keep hearing this same "lack of character" argument over and over and over again.
Aside from Hayward admitting that he was miffed that Crean's son won an award at a camp--so miffed in fact that allowed his son go back--nobody seems able to document any actual examples of this "lack of character".
Usually "lack of character" is evidenced by things like getting caught making NCAA recruiting violations, egregious technical fouls or ejections leading to suspension by the NCAA, getting naked in front of your team, embarrassing videos of the coach kissing coeds at frat parties, getting drunk and disorderly at campus bars, getting arrested for DWI, recruiting players of questionable morals, or giving favors to players who don't cut it in the classroom like having tutors take the tests for them.
Getting into fistfights with your players might be a sign of lack of character, but as Al proved, that isn't necessarily the case.
To me, a real sign of lack character are those who keep lobbing accusations but don't have anything to back them up.
+ 100 Can we move on?
Quote from: Benny B on December 23, 2009, 01:54:47 PM
Michael Jackson, Brett Favre, Roman Polansky, Bobby Knight, Bill Clinton, George Bush
ask Bobby Knight what he thinks about IU being one of the top five basketball programs in history.
What is the common thread here?
M Jackson and Polansky pedophiles so they are scum bags
Bobby Knight has a temper but that's not a crime (BTW What does he think about IU's reputation?)
Brett Favre...what, he left the Packers?
Clinton got an air start in the Oval Office from an ugly fat chick
and George Bush threw up on the Japanese PM
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 23, 2009, 02:48:50 PM
I speak for many who felt liberated on 4/1/08.
A bit dramatic but well stated. It has that 'Patton's 3rd Army kicking in the gates of Buchenwald' ring to it
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 23, 2009, 03:34:46 PM
And
Where do you guys keep coming up with this "middle of the night" comment?
The timeline was that he accepted the job the morning of the 1st, scheduled an announcement for the next morning, left an urgent message with his boss--who was on a flight due to land by about 4:00 PM, called a team meeting AND met with the team before dinner that same day--before nightfall, no less middle of the night.
But what I really want to know is what you would declare to be reasonable? Call the FAA to place an emergency inflight call to Cottingham? Call the players out of class?
To me--reasonable seems to be exactly what Crean did--1. leave a message with Cottingham to call the minute he's on the ground and 2. schedule a team meeting after classes are done for the day.
Well, that is one version of the story told by Crean. Another was that Joanie was sick and he was tending to her and couldn't tell the administration. Or did you forget him throwing his wife (who seemed quite well at the press conference) under the bus?
Quote from: RawdogDX on December 23, 2009, 04:48:25 PM
It seems like there are three groups of haters.
1: People who are mad because 'he left for a better school.'
My question about these people is what percentage of you have ever spent 9 years doing the same job? After 9 years if you got an offer from a company that had better name recognition would you have considered it?
2: People who are mad becasue of the way he did it. (he should have told his players first since he controlled every media leak in indiana, he signed his contract to recently as if coaches didn't do that all the time, he turned his back on his players you know, because coaches who are nice people only leave when they have no seniors)
These people would have a lot more credability if there weren't 1000's of them every time any coach leaves any school. It's just amazing how every coach in the history of college sports who ever left did it in a jerkish way.
3. People who hate him because he's a jerk based on something they heard.
He's supposed to be a jerk. MOST coaches are. There are plenty of times it helps.
But raw i know one guy who works for some school and knows a guy in the athletic department who says that the general feeling towards the coach is that he's nice.
Well good for that freaking place. Don't care.
Stands and applauds.
Quote from: pbiflyer on December 23, 2009, 09:53:48 PM
Well, that is one version of the story told by Crean. Another was that Joanie was sick and he was tending to her and couldn't tell the administration. Or did you forget him throwing his wife (who seemed quite well at the press conference) under the bus?
For as slick a guy as the Tanned One can be he really fumbled his lies on this one. In particlar his pathetic story about tending to his sick wife was such a transparent "excuse" that I was actually embarrassed for him. Unfortunately, Mrs Warthog and I were in Carmel on holiday when this story broke and my attempts to follow it got me into some hot water with my wife. She could care less about sports unless it is her beloved Middlebury Panthers national champ lacrosse teams then we would be sitting in front of ESPN...
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 23, 2009, 03:34:46 PM
And
Where do you guys keep coming up with this "middle of the night" comment?
The timeline was that he accepted the job the morning of the 1st, scheduled an announcement for the next morning, left an urgent message with his boss--who was on a flight due to land by about 4:00 PM, called a team meeting AND met with the team before dinner that same day--before nightfall, no less middle of the night.
I love Crean for the restoration of the program. Madness? 100 People showed up at the first one. TCrean brought us back from the dead.
However, your timeline is factually incorrect. We all saw the fax signed by Crean dated the previous evening accepting the job. It is common knowledge as IU is a public university so this cannot be denied. We also know it is on record that Crean talked to Izzo up to a week before and Rivers a couple days before. He then had his bro-in-law spread the word on ESPN mid day of the 1st., as he forgot to tell his superiors and players he recruited that he was gone although he knew they were getting on a plane midday--how convenient? The middle of the night comment arises from Crean himself when he claimed "flu" and scurried to scramble to tell his players and head to Bloomington "in the middle of the night"--literally to show how great he was despite the "flu".
He had every right to leave...but enough of the 'victim syndrome" him and his handlers like to spread. Truly classless despite all his other accomplishments!, He is imperfect, admit it...and a douce, per Fr. Wild
Quote from: pbiflyer on December 23, 2009, 09:53:48 PM
Well, that is one version of the story told by Crean. Another was that Joanie was sick and he was tending to her and couldn't tell the administration. Or did you forget him throwing his wife (who seemed quite well at the press conference) under the bus?
Actually, it was
widely reported that Cottingham was on a plane to the WNIT in Denver and Fr. Wild was on a plane to Washington DC. I don't even think Cottinham or Wild have denied this. And they both have confirmed that they spoke with Crean later that day.
It was also widely reported that the team met with Crean at his home before he left for the press conference the next morning. This is not a made-up story that is unconfirmed by anyone else. I don't think anyone--including the players--deny that the team went out to Crean's home where he told them
in person that he was leaving.
If you want to ignore reality because it makes you feel better about holding a grudge, go right ahead. But don't expect that others will play along.
Quote from: pbiflyer on December 23, 2009, 09:53:48 PM
Well, that is one version of the story told by Crean. Another was that Joanie was sick and he was tending to her and couldn't tell the administration. Or did you forget him throwing his wife (who seemed quite well at the press conference) under the bus?
Crean's no different than any other coach. They all throw their wives under the bus to cover up their bad behavior. Anyone who doesn't believe that is a bitter jilted lover. Don't be such a hater.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 23, 2009, 11:57:18 PM
...and a douce, per Fr. Wild
Uh, um, douce? Do you mean Fr Wild said that Crean is a deuce or a douche?
"Boy, ol' Tommy's a real deuce, isn't he fellas?"
Or..
"That sonuvabitch Crean's a real douche, isn't he?"
There is a difference...
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 24, 2009, 12:04:25 AM
Uh, um, douce? Do you mean Fr Wild said that Crean is a deuce or a douche?
"Boy, ol' Tommy's a real deuce, isn't he fellas?"
Or..
"That sonuvabitch Crean's a real douche, isn't he?"
There is a difference...
Factually, both!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 24, 2009, 12:02:59 AM
Crean's no different than any other coach. They all throw their wives under the bus to cover up their bad behavior. Anyone who doesn't believe that is a bitter jilted lover. Don't be such a hater.
Lenny, that's why I am so fortunate to have Ms Warthog by my side. I know, when word leaks I am meeting a $5,000/night call girl at a $2,000 suite at the Mayflower, Mrs Warthog will be there by my side in public. I know, when word leaks I have been flying off to Buenos Aires to meet an on-line mistress, Mrs Warthog will be there in public to get me back into the cockpit. I know,when a dozen women pitch up about my affairs with them, Mrs Warthog will help me into the Escalade I don't own. Sure, she likes Barbra Streisand music but she will always be there for me!
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 24, 2009, 12:12:09 AM
Lenny, that's why I am so fortunate to have Ms Warthog by my side. I know, when word leaks I am meeting a $5,000/night call girl at a $2,000 suite at the Mayflower, Mrs Warthog will be there by my side in public. I know, when word leaks I have been flying off to Buenos Aires to meet an on-line mistress, Mrs Warthog will be there in public to get me back into the cockpit. I know,when a dozen women pitch up about my affairs with them, Mrs Warthog will help me into the Escalade I don't own. Sure, she likes Barbra Streisand music but she will always be there for me!
And you've stayed by her side in spite of her fondness for Babs - something I could not abide. I salute your equanimity.
On a more serious note, take care of yourself during your upcoming tour of duty. I'm sure you'll be a less frequent poster and the board will be poorer for that. But the bad news for SCOOP will be worse news for the bad guys in Iraq/Afghanistan. Upon your return it would be my pleasure to buy you and Mrs Warthog a beverage at the dive of your choice. Stay well.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 23, 2009, 11:57:18 PM
However, your timeline is factually incorrect. We all saw the fax signed by Crean dated the previous evening accepting the job. It is common knowledge as IU is a public university so this cannot be denied.
Funny thing about that fax--there were two relevant timestamps--a fact you conveniently disregard. One--that you refer to here--was at 7:10 pm on Monday. The other came at 1:45 PM on Tuesday.
Hmm. For Crean to sign and return an offer letter, doesn't he have to receive it first?
Wouldn't that make the first time stamp--7:10 on Monday evening--the time when it was sent FROM Indiana TO Crean?
And wouldn't it follow that the one dated 1:45 PM is when Crean accepted the job by returning the fax?
Chicos- are you Tom Crean???????
IF NOT... you are equally as lame as him.
You are a lame person who defends a loser (Tom Crean). Have fun in life....
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 24, 2009, 12:12:09 AM
Lenny, that's why I am so fortunate to have Ms Warthog by my side. I know, when word leaks I am meeting a $5,000/night call girl at a $2,000 suite at the Mayflower, Mrs Warthog will be there by my side in public. I know, when word leaks I have been flying off to Buenos Aires to meet an on-line mistress, Mrs Warthog will be there in public to get me back into the cockpit. I know,when a dozen women pitch up about my affairs with them, Mrs Warthog will help me into the Escalade I don't own. Sure, she likes Barbra Streisand music but she will always be there for me!
You've been sniffing too much of the depleted uranium on your .30mm rounds.
Quote from: nyg on December 24, 2009, 06:06:33 AM
You've been sniffing too much of the depleted uranium on your .30mm rounds.
BTW, if you are being deployed, best of luck to you and the family, and use those rounds for some good use.
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 23, 2009, 07:29:31 PM
I keep hearing this same "lack of character" argument over and over and over again.
Aside from Hayward admitting that he was miffed that Crean's son won an award at a camp--so miffed in fact that allowed his son go back--nobody seems able to document any actual examples of this "lack of character".
Usually "lack of character" is evidenced by things like getting caught making NCAA recruiting violations, egregious technical fouls or ejections leading to suspension by the NCAA, getting naked in front of your team, embarrassing videos of the coach kissing coeds at frat parties, getting drunk and disorderly at campus bars, getting arrested for DWI, recruiting players of questionable morals, or giving favors to players who don't cut it in the classroom like having tutors take the tests for them.
Getting into fistfights with your players might be a sign of lack of character, but as Al proved, that isn't necessarily the case.
To me, a real sign of lack character are those who keep lobbing accusations but don't have anything to back them up.
Except some of us have had personal interactions with the man.
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 23, 2009, 11:59:47 PM
Actually, it was widely reported that Cottingham was on a plane to the WNIT in Denver and Fr. Wild was on a plane to Washington DC. I don't even think Cottinham or Wild have denied this. And they both have confirmed that they spoke with Crean later that day.
It was also widely reported that the team met with Crean at his home before he left for the press conference the next morning. This is not a made-up story that is unconfirmed by anyone else. I don't think anyone--including the players--deny that the team went out to Crean's home where he told them in person that he was leaving.
If you want to ignore reality because it makes you feel better about holding a grudge, go right ahead. But don't expect that others will play along.
So, he met with the players before the press conference. But, AFTER they had already found out he had a new job. And that, Crean blamed onb Joanie being sick.
Bottom line:
Players found out their coach had taken a new job by watching Sports Center.
The Administration found out by checking their voice mail.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 23, 2009, 04:15:22 PM
I think the problem is that you have annointed yourself his public defender ;)
oooo lucky post 777!!!
Perhaps, but when a lynch mob is out with facts not at their side, yes all people need representation, even the douche bags.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on December 23, 2009, 04:59:19 PM
You forgot:
4. People who are good judges of character.
Yet you were a KO fan, so did the judgment go out the door during those 5 years? LOL
Let's cut to the chase, if Crean had handled the departure differently, the same people that hated him would still hate him. People are using the departure as an excuse, and nothing more.
If Crean had been offered the job, came back to Milwaukee, spoke to the team, etc and said he was leaving and then released it to the public, the haters would still bitch, bash, etc like they do now. Nothing would have changed.
They would cite the "Family" comments or the tinkering with other jobs or his comments that he was Happy at Marquette. This is what all coaches do, what all coaches say, and everyone is stuck with their johnson in their hand when the guy leaves (latest case...see Brian Kelly at Cincinnati who said the same exact thing).
The haters hate, that's what they do. How he left is a convenient excuse. Hards Alumni says it himself....because they had dealings with the man. That's the source of it, they just flat out didn't like him.
Why some people can't just own up and say that (4ever has) and call a spade a spade is beyond me.
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 23, 2009, 07:29:31 PM
I keep hearing this same "lack of character" argument over and over and over again.
Aside from Hayward admitting that he was miffed that Crean's son won an award at a camp--so miffed in fact that allowed his son go back--nobody seems able to document any actual examples of this "lack of character".
Usually "lack of character" is evidenced by things like getting caught making NCAA recruiting violations, egregious technical fouls or ejections leading to suspension by the NCAA, getting naked in front of your team, embarrassing videos of the coach kissing coeds at frat parties, getting drunk and disorderly at campus bars, getting arrested for DWI, recruiting players of questionable morals, or giving favors to players who don't cut it in the classroom like having tutors take the tests for them.
Getting into fistfights with your players might be a sign of lack of character, but as Al proved, that isn't necessarily the case.
To me, a real sign of lack character are those who keep lobbing accusations but don't have anything to back them up.
Agree. There are some who will never let it go and it infests them. Crean is a young guy, they have 10-15 more years of misery. Just wait till TC has some success. Their heads will explode.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 24, 2009, 09:42:18 AM
Except some of us have had personal interactions with the man.
Apparently not, because there there has been exactly one personal interaction that has been shared on this board. And Hayward was so incensed by it that he
sent his own kids back to Crean's camp the next year.
The way people talk about Crean, one would think Hayward should be arrested for child endangerment!
If there are "personal interactions," they've never been shared. My guess is that, as with Hayward's case, they are so petty that people are embarrassed to even bring them up.
Quote from: pbiflyer on December 24, 2009, 09:57:28 AM
So, he met with the players before the press conference. But, AFTER they had already found out he had a new job. And that, Crean blamed onb Joanie being sick.
Bottom line:
Players found out their coach had taken a new job by watching Sports Center.
The Administration found out by checking their voice mail.
You're not dealing with facts.
The fact is that until there was a deal with Indiana, Crean had nothing to discuss with MU. When he did have a deal, the players were in class and the administrators were on a plane.
So I'll ask again, given the facts, what SHOULD have been done?
Do you honestly think that this rose to the level where an emergency in-flight call should have been made, or is a "call me as soon as you land" sufficient.
Do you think that this warranted pulling student-athletes out of class? Or is scheduling a team meeting after class sufficient?
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 24, 2009, 11:27:22 AM
You're not dealing with facts.
The fact is that until there was a deal with Indiana, Crean had nothing to discuss with MU. When he did have a deal, the players were in class and the administrators were on a plane.
So I'll ask again, given the facts, what SHOULD have been done?
Do you honestly think that this rose to the level where an emergency in-flight call should have been made, or is a "call me as soon as you land" sufficient.
Do you think that this warranted pulling student-athletes out of class? Or is scheduling a team meeting after class sufficient?
I know for a fact Dom and others were in their room(s) when they watched Andy Katz on ESPN break the story.
Quote from: Chili on December 24, 2009, 11:41:26 AM
I know for a fact Dom and others were in their room(s) when they watched Andy Katz on ESPN break the story.
That was pretty polite of him to share that info with Andy. Bravo.
Quote from: MU in Miami on December 24, 2009, 11:48:37 AM
That was pretty polite of him to share that info with Andy. Bravo.
But hey, Tom Crean is a class act. This was the thing that annoyed me more than anything, leak the fucking story to Katz before telling your seniors to be. What a fucking asshat!
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 24, 2009, 09:42:18 AM
Except some of us have had personal interactions with the man.
The personal interactions I've read about on this board where people complain about TC are almost always related to personality not character. Many posters don't seem to understand the difference.
I don't care if the coach carries himself like a used car salesman. Good, MU was a 95 explorer with 120K miles on it and he sold it.
I don't give a crap if some temp put together a flier in 2004 that TC didn't like and he was short with her.
Good, she probably will do a better job next time.
I also don't care if everytime you saw him smiling and waving to fans you thought it was an act that he was carring out as part of his job requirement. Good I'm glad he was a good public face of the program.
Don't care if he also was a control freak about the media and did his best to be in the spotlight.
Good, I'm Glad someone from MU was in the spot light.
Quote from: Chili on December 24, 2009, 11:53:05 AM
But hey, Tom Crean is a class act. This was the thing that annoyed me more than anything, leak the fracking story to Katz before telling your seniors to be. What a fracking asshat!
Anything else you want to make up. There were dozens of people who could have leaked the story. How many people were involved in contract talks? Shuttling him back to MU? Members of the athletic department? Chances that TC called katz that night are pretty slim.
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 24, 2009, 11:23:16 AM
Apparently not, because there there has been exactly one personal interaction that has been shared on this board. And Hayward was so incensed by it that he sent his own kids back to Crean's camp the next year.
The way people talk about Crean, one would think Hayward should be arrested for child endangerment!
If there are "personal interactions," they've never been shared. My guess is that, as with Hayward's case, they are so petty that people are embarrassed to even bring them up.
actually, I shared mine in a thread a few months ago.
but thanks for checking before just making up whatever helps your argument.
Quote from: RawdogDX on December 24, 2009, 12:01:29 PM
Anything else you want to make up. There were dozens of people who could have leaked the story. How many people were involved in contract talks? Shuttling him back to MU? Members of the athletic department? Chances that TC called katz that night are pretty slim.
So the fact that Dom watched Andy Katz say Tom Crean would be the next head coach at IU didn't happen? Too bad that it did. For a control freak like Crean to let something like this slip? Come on - don't be such a rube.
Quote from: Chili on December 24, 2009, 12:07:44 PM
So the fact that Dom watched Andy Katz say Tom Crean would be the next head coach at IU didn't happen? Too bad that it did. For a control freak like Crean to let something like this slip? Come on - don't be such a rube.
yeah, get on the trolley!
Chicos is right. I don't dig the cat or the horse he rode in on.
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 23, 2009, 07:29:31 PM
I keep hearing this same "lack of character" argument over and over and over again.
Aside from Hayward admitting that he was miffed that Crean's son won an award at a camp--so miffed in fact that allowed his son go back--nobody seems able to document any actual examples of this "lack of character".
Usually "lack of character" is evidenced by things like getting caught making NCAA recruiting violations, egregious technical fouls or ejections leading to suspension by the NCAA, getting naked in front of your team, embarrassing videos of the coach kissing coeds at frat parties, getting drunk and disorderly at campus bars, getting arrested for DWI, recruiting players of questionable morals, or giving favors to players who don't cut it in the classroom like having tutors take the tests for them.
Getting into fistfights with your players might be a sign of lack of character, but as Al proved, that isn't necessarily the case.
To me, a real sign of lack character are those who keep lobbing accusations but don't have anything to back them up.
He did abscond 1.5 years after signing a 10-year contract extension. That contract had him here through the 2016-2017. Thankfully, TC did not honor his contract. Buzz > TC
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 24, 2009, 10:35:38 AM
Perhaps, but when a lynch mob is out with facts not at their side, yes all people need representation, even the douche bags.
Your nobility is only exceeded by your humility.
Quote from: Chili on December 24, 2009, 12:07:44 PM
So the fact that Dom watched Andy Katz say Tom Crean would be the next head coach at IU didn't happen? Too bad that it did. For a control freak like Crean to let something like this slip? Come on - don't be such a rube.
Yes andy katz knew before dom. That happened. How do you know who told katz? You are the one just guessing here. It probably was someone at indiana who told katz. You think katz has been covering college bball for the better part of a decade without a having single source? There is someon on one of the boards with insider info practically anytime something major happens. I don't see why people are so sure it was crean breaking the story. Welcome to the internet age, stuff gets out.
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 23, 2009, 07:29:31 PM
I keep hearing this same "lack of character" argument over and over and over again.
Aside from Hayward admitting that he was miffed that Crean's son won an award at a camp--so miffed in fact that allowed his son go back--nobody seems able to document any actual examples of this "lack of character".
Usually "lack of character" is evidenced by things like getting caught making NCAA recruiting violations, egregious technical fouls or ejections leading to suspension by the NCAA, getting naked in front of your team, embarrassing videos of the coach kissing coeds at frat parties, getting drunk and disorderly at campus bars, getting arrested for DWI, recruiting players of questionable morals, or giving favors to players who don't cut it in the classroom like having tutors take the tests for them.
Getting into fistfights with your players might be a sign of lack of character, but as Al proved, that isn't necessarily the case.
To me, a real sign of lack character are those who keep lobbing accusations but don't have anything to back them up.
your affection for crean warps your memory. never did i say i was "miffed" by Creans display. What I said was I was embarrassed for him and felt bad for him as he continuously gave one award after another to his son to the gasps and moans of over 1000 Mu supporters. Never did anger have anything to do with it, simply a pathetic display where i felt embarrassmnet for a person that clearly had no idea of what he was doing to him self to an entire gymnasioum full of MU people. yet another display to the man
"It was also widely reported that the team met with Crean at his home before he left for the press conference the next morning."
Umm - Crean got out of a limo in Bloomington for the nightly news holding up a "Crean and Crimson" tee shirt. About 2 hours after telling his MU team he was leaving.
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 24, 2009, 11:23:16 AM
Apparently not, because there there has been exactly one personal interaction that has been shared on this board. And Hayward was so incensed by it that he sent his own kids back to Crean's camp the next year.
The way people talk about Crean, one would think Hayward should be arrested for child endangerment!
If there are "personal interactions," they've never been shared. My guess is that, as with Hayward's case, they are so petty that people are embarrassed to even bring them up.
this actually happened the last year he had the camp...so no one including me would have or could have sent their child back "despite" as you continue to spew. Its amazing how you conyinue to twist this story to fit your pathetic agaenda. Additionally numerous other people on this board have verified this story...it is not just mine
Quote from: DomJamesToTheBasket on December 24, 2009, 03:27:28 PM
He did abscond 1.5 years after signing a 10-year contract extension. That contract had him here through the 2016-2017. Thankfully, TC did not honor his contract. Buzz > TC
Sometimes ones hatred blinds one to facts.
Crean's contract you refer to included a buyout clause, which Crean honored. Hence, there was no basis lawsuit from MU claiming that Crean did not honor his contract.
As for brining in Buzz, I'm really surprised you're even bringing this one up. You might want to check out wht happened on his departure from UNO.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 24, 2009, 12:05:13 PM
actually, I shared mine in a thread a few months ago.
but thanks for checking before just making up whatever helps your argument.
I don't recall the discussion, so it obviously didn't make much of an impression.
But please, do me the favor of retelling the story--you obviously feel its important.
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 25, 2009, 11:31:06 AM
I don't recall the discussion, so it obviously didn't make much of an impression.
But please, do me the favor of retelling the story--you obviously feel its important.
you didn't recall it because it wasn't convenient, I guess.
as for retelling, no thanks, I typed it once, if you want to read it, do a search yourself.
exactly, Mu84 makes accusations towards me of things i did not say and distorts the truth and intent I then confront him on it and he just keeps on posting like he does not see my rebuttal. your story and my rebuttal dont exist becuse they do not match an adgenda.
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 24, 2009, 11:23:16 AM
Apparently not, because there there has been exactly one personal interaction that has been shared on this board. And Hayward was so incensed by it that he sent his own kids back to Crean's camp the next year.
The way people talk about Crean, one would think Hayward should be arrested for child endangerment!
If there are "personal interactions," they've never been shared. My guess is that, as with Hayward's case, they are so petty that people are embarrassed to even bring them up.
Ironic that the guy who constantly screams about facts is wrong about every "fact" presented in this post.
Maybe they live in alternate universes?!?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 24, 2009, 01:04:57 AM
And you've stayed by her side in spite of her fondness for Babs - something I could not abide. I salute your equanimity.
On a more serious note, take care of yourself during your upcoming tour of duty. I'm sure you'll be a less frequent poster and the board will be poorer for that. But the bad news for SCOOP will be worse news for the bad guys in Iraq/Afghanistan. Upon your return it would be my pleasure to buy you and Mrs Warthog a beverage at the dive of your choice. Stay well.
Thanks for the kind words and offer of a tall cold one. As you know, there is something about a dive that imparts a heartier flavor to a malted beverage. If you're ever in the Puget Sound area do let me know and the IPAs are on the Warthog!
Quote from: nyg on December 24, 2009, 06:13:57 AM
BTW, if you are being deployed, best of luck to you and the family, and use those rounds for some good use.
Thanks for the kind words - yes, the Warthogs are once again going back into harm's way. Not to worry, though, as that is the natural environment for the most stupendous killing machine on God's green earth. What I concern myself with, as a commander, is that 422 go in and 422 come back to home plate with the same number of moving parts. Mrs Warthog, for her part (and despite a very full plate with her duties at the Gates Foundation) tends to the flock back here - flowers on birthdays, spa certificates, morale dinners, and being on call 24/7. Some of the wives are 18 years old, away from home for the first time, and they struggle throughout the whole deployment. Mrs Warthog, and a handful of other more experienced wives, are the surrogates to help these kids get through all of this. Trust me - we deployers have the easy part as we are trained for this, know what we are doing, and keep ourselves busy. As Mrs Warthog has confided to me, in the quiet times, it's just so damned nerve wracking not knowing what is happening over there. She distills it down to its essence - she notes it is epitomized by that shudder of terror one gets every time the phone rings. God bless the families who hold down the fort back here, not knowing, always wondering but always keeping the faith. That is a courage I cannot imagine.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 25, 2009, 09:10:22 AM
this actually happened the last year he had the camp...so no one including me would have or could have sent their child back "despite" as you continue to spew. Its amazing how you conyinue to twist this story to fit your pathetic agaenda. Additionally numerous other people on this board have verified this story...it is not just mine
There is a certain irony when YOU accuse someone of having a pathetic agenda.
So I get the sequence wrong--but the basic sentiment remains: you launched a multi-year pathetic agenda of hate based on the most specious of reasons.
You are a major-league hypocrite for coming on this board and ripping Crean the way you do while at the same time supporting his camp.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 25, 2009, 02:49:12 PM
you didn't recall it because it wasn't convenient, I guess.
as for retelling, no thanks, I typed it once, if you want to read it, do a search yourself.
So we now have your personal disapproval of Crean's attire, and Hayward's complaint about Crean's son winning an award.
Anyone else want to document the reason behind their hatred?
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 25, 2009, 05:03:52 PM
exactly, Mu84 makes accusations towards me of things i did not say and distorts the truth and intent I then confront him on it and he just keeps on posting like he does not see my rebuttal. your story and my rebuttal dont exist becuse they do not match an adgenda.
Actually you did say it, I just got the sequence wrong. I apologize for that grevious error. I still think its an extremely petty reason to base your multi-year rant. Talk about your pathetic agendas. Your kid doesn't win an award, and you still spew about it years later?
And Hards story actually was even more trivial than yours, if you can believe that! Unless you consider wearing a windbreaker instead of a dinner jacket evidence of being a douche. Oh, sure, he alluded to other activities which he elected to "keep secret". But that was my point--nobody ever shares these supposed incidents.
People keep claiming they have these personal interactions that would prove that Crean is a douche--but then they never share the details. Hards calls Crean was a "complete dick" but doesn't give any of the details.
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 26, 2009, 11:19:03 AM
So we now have your personal disapproval of Crean's attire, and Hayward's complaint about Crean's son winning an award.
Anyone else want to document the reason behind their hatred?
again, you're just repeating what is beneficial to your argument.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 24, 2009, 04:09:20 PM
Your nobility is only exceeded by your humility.
Stones....glass houses.....
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 26, 2009, 11:38:20 AM
again, you're just repeating what is beneficial to your argument.
Really?
So now that I've found it, you're just another example of a guy who makes accusations, but didn't share the details.
You claim Crean was a "complete dick", but then you say you'll keep the details to yourself. No wonder I didn't remember this--YOU NEVER ACTUALLY SHARED the details!
Your quote: 'In fact, that was the day he lost my respect completely. But the details, I'll keep them to myself." [emphasis added]
My point was that people kept voicing complaints but never shared the details--not only do you NOT prove me wrong--you actually support my case. You call Crean a "complete dick" but then keep the details to yourself.
Thank you for helping prove the point-- another undocumented complaint about Crean from a guy who can't or won't share the circumstances.
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 26, 2009, 11:33:45 AM
Actually you did say it, I just got the sequence wrong. I apologize for that grevious error. I still think its an extremely petty reason to base your multi-year rant. Talk about your pathetic agendas. Your kid doesn't win an award, and you still spew about it years later?
And Hards story actually was even more trivial than yours, if you can believe that! Unless you consider wearing a windbreaker instead of a dinner jacket evidence of being a douche. Oh, sure, he alluded to other activities which he elected to "keep secret". But that was my point--nobody ever shares these supposed incidents.
People keep claiming they have these personal interactions that would prove that Crean is a douche--but then they never share the details. Hards calls Crean was a "complete dick" but doesn't give any of the details.
MU84 you truly are pathetic...when did i ever say i was upset my kid did not win an award. Please reread every post i have ever made on the topic. All i have ever said was i was emabrrassed for the man.
lastly if my 8 year old son says he wants to go to the Mu camp becuase the counselors are some of his idols then i am not going to tell him "no" becuase i think the head coach is a loser. if that pettiness would enter your thought stream then i guess it says even more about you. Thankfully the last 2 years it has been run by Buzz and has been significantly better.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 26, 2009, 11:47:50 AM
MU84 you truly are pathetic...when did i ever say i was upset my kid did not win an award. Please reread every post i have ever made on the topic. All i have ever said was i was emabrrassed for the man.
lastly if my 8 year old son says he wants to go to the Mu camp becuase the counselors are some of his idols then i am not going to tell him "no" becuase i think the head coach is a loser. if that pettiness would enter your thought stream then i guess it says even more about you. Thankfully the last 2 years it has been run by Buzz and has been significantly better.
I think your posts go way beyond mere embarrassment for the man.
And yes, I do think a basic parental obligation is to protect their children from people they think are complete douches.
I said I'd keep the details to myself out of respect for his family, but if you really need to know, and can't just take my word for it, then what is the point? Why would you believe anything I said? Understand?
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 26, 2009, 05:17:25 PM
I said I'd keep the details to myself out of respect for his family, but if you really need to know, and can't just take my word for it, then what is the point? Why would you believe anything I said? Understand?
agreed a have a few absolute whoppers too but am not comfortable going into that type of personal detail on a board like this
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 26, 2009, 05:59:16 PM
agreed a have a few absolute whoppers too but am not comfortable going into that type of personal detail on a board like this
You have no worry of sullying a good reputation so I'm a little confused why this would make you uncomfortable.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 26, 2009, 05:17:25 PM
I said I'd keep the details to myself out of respect for his family, but if you really need to know, and can't just take my word for it, then what is the point? Why would you believe anything I said? Understand?
I won't ask you to share the details.
At the same time don't call me out because I didn't "remember" something that you never shared. When I said only one person shared a single experience, you disputed me saying you had shared one as well. It turns out you didn't actually share your experience--and still don't want to--which might explain why I did not remember it.
Finally, I ask whether you think Crean's family would agree with your conclusion that Crean is a "complete dick". Given you won't share the details because of your concern for
their interests, I have to think that you have at least some fear that they don't agree with you.
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 26, 2009, 08:12:25 PM
I won't ask you to share the details.
At the same time don't call me out because I didn't "remember" something that you never shared. When I said only one person shared a single experience, you disputed me saying you had shared one as well. It turns out you didn't actually share your experience--and still don't want to--which might explain why I did not remember it.
Finally, I ask whether you think Crean's family would agree with your conclusion that Crean is a "complete dick". Given you won't share the details because of your concern for their interests, I have to think that you have at least some fear that they don't agree with you.
I'm just saying, don't say I didn't say that there was more that I knew. I shared *part* of an experience. Just trying to keep everything *nice* on these boards.
I don't care if the family thinks that he is a complete dick, because they probably don't. But that doesn't exactly mean he is a nice guy, does it? We are the ones who are passing judgment at this juncture, not them.
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 26, 2009, 11:52:04 AM
And yes, I do think a basic parental obligation is to protect their children from people they think are complete douches.
Why? They'll be dealing with douches most of their lives.
Meanwhile, the biggest douche coach MU has had in 30 years pulled off a nice win over UNLV yesterday.
KO's USC club is 8-4 with some very good wins and very bad losses. Strange team.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 27, 2009, 03:58:29 PM
Meanwhile, the biggest douche coach MU has had in 30 years pulled off a nice win over UNLV yesterday.
I had no idea Indiana played UNLV yesterday