#1 Elite - conference -Yes
#2 Elite - History of a winning progam/good practice facility-Yes
#3 Elite - Coach - No , He may eventually be one ,but we are in a position because of #1 and#2 to have one . This is not a knock on Buzz . If an elite coach becomes available we should make a strong bid to get him. Why should we have to be in the same position as before ? Crean was the perfect hire at the time . We improved #1 and #2 and now we should complete it with #3 .P. S. I have nothing against Buzz as a person or where he is has progressed currently as a coach
Best way to be/become an elite coach...recruit great players. Time will tell of course, but he seems to be doing pretty well so far.
BTW, define elite coach.
Seems like we had this opportunity just a year ago. No "Elite Coaches" seemed particularly interested.
I find this post odd.
I think also add to your list consistency too. Winning 20+ games for 4 straight years and making 4 consecutive NCAAs (and 6 in 8) looks very, very good for potential recruits as well.
A history of winning maybe but we don't have a name that draws elite recruits nationally(we are getting there). And that is how you should phrase number 2.
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 23, 2009, 12:56:02 PM
#2 Elite - History of a winning progam/good practice facility-Yes
How is that one ingredient? What does one have to do with the other? MU had a history as a winning program when they practiced in the Old Gym.
elite coach-see elite programs ,see this years Sweet 16 for starters . Plus there are plenty of coaches from not so elite programs who have more experience for our position .If Buzz was at an A-10 school , for example , he would not get the same recruits he gets here .
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 23, 2009, 01:07:30 PM
How is that one ingredient? What does one have to do with the other? MU had a history as a winning program when they practiced in the Old Gym.
Ok ,then if you want , we can make winning program and practice facility as separate elite items
If the school recruits itself, then why haven't we had a big man since Key/McIlvaine (other than one year of R Jackson)?
Here is an OK example , Louisville ,similar to Marquette, close enough
#1- yes
#2- yes
#3- yes
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 23, 2009, 01:24:19 PM
elite coach-see elite programs ,see this years Sweet 16 for starters . Plus there are plenty of coaches from not so elite programs who have more experience for our position .If Buzz was at an A-10 school , for example , he would not get the same recruits he gets here .
So, great. Which of those guys is gonna 'become available," and would they still be
elite if they did?
Rick Pitino isn't just gonna wake up next week and decide he wants to coach at MU.
If you can point to some elite coaches that could become available and under what circumstamces, and the further explain why they would want to come to Marquette, that would be fine, but I guess I am just struggling to understand your point/purpose.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 23, 2009, 01:33:18 PM
So, great. Which of those guys is gonna 'become available," and would they still be elite if they did?
Rick Pitino isn't just gonna wake up next week and decide he wants to coach at MU.
If you can point to some elite coaches that could become available and under what circumstamces, and the further explain why they would want to come to Marquette, that would be fine, but I guess I am just struggling to understand your point/purpose.
I said,if an elite coach becomes available ,we should be in the mix to get him. Now ,I know I am gonna get it for this ,but Calipari is available .Regardless of what people think about him ,he IS an elite coach
How is Louisville close to Marquette? Is it the public funding, the double enrollment, the 2 national titles since 1980, or the successful football program? Is that really the example you want to use?
I would agree if Pitino, Calhoun, or Coach K decide they want to come to MU, we should absolutely make that move. However, I would suggest the chances of that happening are almost equalt to that of seeing Al McGuire roaming the sidelines for MU again.
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 23, 2009, 01:37:49 PM
I said,if an elite coach becomes available ,we should be in the mix to get him. Now ,I know I am gonna get it for this ,but Calipari is available .Regardless of what people think about him ,he IS an elite coach
he has NO reason to leave Memphis.
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 23, 2009, 01:37:49 PM
I said,if an elite coach becomes available ,we should be in the mix to get him. Now ,I know I am gonna get it for this ,but Calipari is available .Regardless of what people think about him ,he IS an elite coach
First of all, what makes you say he is available? Because he coaches in CUSA? The guy makes a ton of money, gets almost any player he wants, and seems to get a 1 or 2 seed in the NCAA every year. Why on earth would he even consider giving that up to come to MU?
Arizona wants Calipari ,so he may be out of our reach .If we had Calipari ,that would put us over the top .This comes from Mike Francessa ,TV talk radio host here in NYC . He was talking to an AZ fan when I heard this . Someone should probably check out the Az chat sites
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 23, 2009, 12:56:02 PM
#3 Elite - Coach - No , He may eventually be one ,but we are in a position because of #1 and#2 to have one . This is not a knock on Buzz . If an elite coach becomes available we should make a strong bid to get him. Why should we have to be in the same position as before ? Crean was the perfect hire at the time . We improved #1 and #2 and now we should complete it with #3 .P. S. I have nothing against Buzz as a person or where he is has progressed currently as a coach
Timing is also a huge factor in whether or not a school like Marquette could get an elite coach. Looking back on it, I really wish Crean would have left after the Final Four.
Tim Floyd and a few other big names were available then and probably would have been interested in the job.
So yes, I agree that what we are missing is an elite coach.
Quote from: SCdem@MU on March 23, 2009, 02:00:49 PM
Timing is also a huge factor in whether or not a school like Marquette could get an elite coach. Looking back on it, I really wish Crean would have left after the Final Four.
Tim Floyd and a few other big names were available then and probably would have been interested in the job.
So yes, I agree that what we are missing is an elite coach.
We were still a CUSA program in 2003. At that point, in April 2003, no one could have imagined we would have been in the Big East, and were still considered a fluke mid-major that struck lightening in a bottle and made a Final Four.
If we couldn't in your mind land an "elite" coach in 2008 with the Al, the Big East, James/Matthews/McNeal, why would we have landed someone like Tim Floyd offering up the Old Gym and CUSA then?
Quote from: SCdem@MU on March 23, 2009, 02:00:49 PM
Timing is also a huge factor in whether or not a school like Marquette could get an elite coach. Looking back on it, I really wish Crean would have left after the Final Four.
Tim Floyd and a few other big names were available then and probably would have been interested in the job.
So yes, I agree that what we are missing is an elite coach.
I think that would have been disasterous on many levels. By Crean staying, he made the statement to many kids around the country that MU wasn't a stepping stone job...it wasn't a fluke....it provided stability. We might have been able to get someone like Floyd, etc but we have been bouncing coaches like basketballs the previous 20+ years, we needed that stability more than ever.
Actually,we could have a good shot at Calipari because AZ is going deep into the Tourney and will have a harder time axing their coach .If anyone thinks Calipari is content staying at Memphis,think again .He has a big ego and and therefore wants his name inked to a big time conference against big time coaches .Which conference has more elite coaches than the Big East ? I think he goes whether he wins the NCAA Tourney or not .He may be cheaper and easier to get if he dosent win it.
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 23, 2009, 01:52:16 PM
Arizona wants Calipari ,so he may be out of our reach .If we had Calipari ,that would put us over the top .This comes from Mike Francessa ,TV talk radio host here in NYC . He was talking to an AZ fan when I heard this . Someone should probably check out the Az chat sites
I can't imagine Arizona landing him. Memphis' recruiting class next year already has 2 of the top 10 players in the country, and is already ranked #1. They are probably a top 10 team next year, and if John Wall signs, they will have an embarrassment of riches. He can land all the recruits he needs where he is and is a godsend to the Memphis program. I can't imagine he'd leave that to compete with UCLA and USC for Southern California recruits.
I'm sorry Alien, and I usually hate when other people nitpick off topic, but I find this one just bizarre... what's up with the space before the punctuation? Commas, periods, etc. go right after the last word, not right before the next one.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 23, 2009, 02:10:57 PM
I think that would have been disasterous on many levels. By Crean staying, he made the statement to many kids around the country that MU wasn't a stepping stone job...it wasn't a fluke....it provided stability. We might have been able to get someone like Floyd, etc but we have been bouncing coaches like basketballs the previous 20+ years, we needed that stability more than ever.
And the two years after the Final Four weren't a disaster?
Quote from: SCdem@MU on March 23, 2009, 02:00:49 PM
So yes, I agree that what we are missing is an elite coach.
Outside of 15-20 programs across the country, who isn't? I have to ask again what the point is.
More often than not, elite coach and elite programs are one in the same. The coach either built the elite program (Calhoun/UConn, Olson/Arizona), or walked into an elite program because he had success elsewhere (Howland/UCLA, Self/Kansas).
Quote from: Tribby on March 23, 2009, 02:18:03 PM
I'm sorry Alien, and I usually hate when other people nitpick off topic, but I find this one just bizarre... what's up with the space before the punctuation? Commas, periods, etc. go right after the last word, not right before the next one.
You gotta be kidding me ?%$#@&^*(?"{
Quote from: SCdem@MU on March 23, 2009, 02:20:16 PM
And the two years after the Final Four weren't a disaster?
From which perspective?
On court, yes, we underachieved both years and whiffed badly in recruiting in 2003 and 2004 (of those classes, only Marcus Jackson, Mike Kinsella, and Barro finished at MU). But don't forget that the 2004-2005 team got off to a 12-1 start, and Diener only played in 8 conference games (bad ankle before breaking the hand). When he was on the floor and healthy, it was a good team, probably an NCAA team even. When he was hurt, it was a miserable team.
Off-court, let's see: we get an invite to the Big East, and we land the Amigos. Those two things set the stage for the next four years, as brutal as the on-court product was.
I cannot imagine firing Buzz and hiring another coach at this time...whether it would be the right move or not. You don't give a guy one year a year that includes: 1)25-10, 2)NCAA tournament, 3)coach presents himself as solid ambassador of the University and 4)his kids are heading in the right life direction........and then you fire him? WTF?
Quote from: SERocks on March 23, 2009, 02:27:57 PM
I cannot imagine firing Buzz and hiring another coach at this time...whether it would be the right move or not. You don't give a guy one year a year that includes: 1)25-10, 2)NCAA tournament, 3)coach presents himself as solid ambassador of the University and 4)his kids are heading in the right life direction........and then you fire him? WTF?
I don't take the fire Buzz chatter seriously at all (and nor do you from your post), but you know what next year would look like if that were to happen?
Hint: It's Indiana, it's Indiana.
Quote from: SERocks on March 23, 2009, 02:27:57 PM
I cannot imagine firing Buzz and hiring another coach at this time...whether it would be the right move or not. You don't give a guy one year a year that includes: 1)25-10, 2)NCAA tournament, 3)coach presents himself as solid ambassador of the University and 4)his kids are heading in the right life direction........and then you fire him? WTF?
Yes ,you fire him .This is a BUSINESS . WTF ? Spaces included
Quote from: SERocks on March 23, 2009, 02:27:57 PM
I cannot imagine firing Buzz and hiring another coach at this time...whether it would be the right move or not. You don't give a guy one year a year that includes: 1)25-10, 2)NCAA tournament, 3)coach presents himself as solid ambassador of the University and 4)his kids are heading in the right life direction........and then you fire him? WTF?
Absolutely agree and I honestly don't think anyone (at least I hope not) is suggesting firing the guy. They certainly shouldn't. He deserves his time to do his thing. He had a good first year that had some security blankets built into the job in my opinion. He's a good person, a good recruiter, and hopefully a quality basketball coach that will continue to get better. Have to give him three more years, unless the next two are disasters which I don't suspect they will be.
Should be a wild ride.
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 23, 2009, 02:34:36 PM
Yes ,you fire him .This is a BUSINESS . WTF ? Spaces included
Well then ,since its BUSINESS ,let's go hire Kelvin Sampson .He had a ton of success .
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 23, 2009, 02:39:11 PM
Absolutely agree and I honestly don't think anyone (at least I hope not) is suggesting firing the guy. They certainly shouldn't. He deserves his time to do his thing. He had a good first year that had some security blankets built into the job in my opinion. He's a good person, a good recruiter, and hopefully a quality basketball coach that will continue to get better. Have to give him three more years, unless the next two are disasters which I don't suspect they will be.
Should be a wild ride.
I'm about as anti-Buzz as anyone, and even I don't think you can fire him this offseason. I have serious doubts about his ability as a coach, but he hasn't yet had an adequate chance to prove me wrong. And I hope he does.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 23, 2009, 02:39:11 PM
Absolutely agree and I honestly don't think anyone (at least I hope not) is suggesting firing the guy. They certainly shouldn't. He deserves his time to do his thing. He had a good first year that had some security blankets built into the job in my opinion. He's a good person, a good recruiter, and hopefully a quality basketball coach that will continue to get better. Have to give him three more years, unless the next two are disasters which I don't suspect they will be.
Should be a wild ride.
I don't want a wild ride with an unproven coach .Yes ,he may work out .But why take that chance over the next 3-4 or more years .Crean put us in the position for an elite hire . We don't need to settle for a project . Elite coaches WILL want to coach here now. We have the bucks to afford one with the major donations we have received .Sorry I don't know what I did wrong to put my remark together with Chicos
I don't want a wild ride with an unproven coach .Yes ,he may work out .But why take that chance over the next 3-4 or more years .Crean put us in the position for an elite hire . We don't need to settle for a project . Elite coaches WILL want to coach here now. We have the bucks to afford one with the major donations we have received .Repeat ,I am not anti-Buzz but pro an elite hire
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 23, 2009, 02:50:08 PM
I don't want a wild ride with an unproven coach .Yes ,he may work out .But why take that chance over the next 3-4 or more years .Crean put us in the position for an elite hire . We don't need to settle for a project . Elite coaches WILL want to coach here now. We have the bucks to afford one with the major donations we have received .Sorry I don't know what I did wrong to put my remark together with Chicos
That was my original argument 12 months ago....we were paying $1.6M per year, finally had the facilities, had the conference and had all the momentum....thus try to get an elite coach. Try to make a statement. Try to hire like the upper echelon does. I mean, was Memphis any better at the time they hired Caliprari then MU last year? Nope. But we like to do things a bit differently.
I understand the wild ride concern, but it's inevitable. 3 huge players graduating, Williams and Taylor backing out of their commitments mean next year is YOUNG YOUNG YOUNG in both years and experience. That equals wild ride in my opinion.
Quote from: SCdem@MU on March 23, 2009, 02:00:49 PM
Timing is also a huge factor in whether or not a school like Marquette could get an elite coach. Looking back on it, I really wish Crean would have left after the Final Four.
Tim Floyd and a few other big names were available then and probably would have been interested in the job.
So yes, I agree that what we are missing is an elite coach.
Tim Floyd? Ugh.
Do you really want a who runs a shady program and whose teams perpetually underachieve?
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 23, 2009, 02:57:04 PM
I don't want a wild ride with an unproven coach .Yes ,he may work out .But why take that chance over the next 3-4 or more years .Crean put us in the position for an elite hire . We don't need to settle for a project . Elite coaches WILL want to coach here now. We have the bucks to afford one with the major donations we have received .Repeat ,I am not anti-Buzz but pro an elite hire
MU is not in the position for an elite coach. No elite coach is going to leave their job to come here, we're not a stop up. No elite coach that is currently retired or working in the pros is going to come here either. The only choice you've got is between up an coming assistants, mid major coaches, and retreads that didn't work out at their last job. We're never going to be the place that goes and gets the head coach from another major school.
Despite what you may want to believe, the reality is that Crean's success did not turn MU into a destination job. It improved Crean's standing in the coaching community, but that's it. MU is still seen by a lot of the great coaches out there as a place that used to be important, as a place that is over it's head in the Big East, and as a place to stay away from because too much work is required to make it to the top. Money doesn't change that unless it's T Boone Pickens money, and we don't have that.
Quote from: Tribby on March 23, 2009, 02:18:03 PM
I'm sorry Alien, and I usually hate when other people nitpick off topic, but I find this one just bizarre... what's up with the space before the punctuation? Commas, periods, etc. go right after the last word, not right before the next one.
Maybe not in Alien's galaxy.
Every year is a "wild ride" at any program with any coach . I want and I think many here want a "wild ride" with an elite coach . I want that third ingredient NOW . I don't want to take the chance with an unknown coach . We could get even better recruits with Calipari.
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 23, 2009, 03:06:57 PM
Every year is a "wild ride" at any program with any coach . I want and I think many here want a "wild ride" with an elite coach . I want that third ingredient NOW . I don't want to take the chance with an unknown coach . We could get even better recruits with Calipari.
And we'd compromise what we are as a university to do it, so it will never happen.
MU is never going to hire a guy with as many skeletons in the closet as Cal or Tim Floyd or anyone like that.
Quote from: bma725 on March 23, 2009, 03:08:50 PM
And we'd compromise what we are as a university to do it, so it will never happen.
MU is never going to hire a guy with as many skeletons in the closet as Cal or Tim Floyd or anyone like that.
You have a point ,MU won't hire a guy like Calipari or Floyd or Knight .These are the Holy Jesuits we are dealing with ,I forgot .Ok,I opened up the can of worms ,Come get me .
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 23, 2009, 02:57:04 PM
Crean put us in the position for an elite hire . We don't need to settle for a project . Elite coaches WILL want to coach here now.
Name them. Maybe you weren't around, but MU just went through this exercise a year ago, and were not able to draw interest from Tony Bennet or Sean Miller, let alone ELITE coaches. Buzz would not have been my first choice, but who are the ELITE coaches who want to coach here now?
Certainly you are not suggesting that MU can compete with Memphis or Arizona for Calipari. If there is any truth to the Arizona rumors, it would not even be worth the time of the phone call for someone at MU to reach out to him. MU would be a distant third on that 3 school list.
I agree we can't compete with AZ unless they go deeper into the Tourney which would make it more difficult for them to get rid of their coach . Anyway ,all I am saying ,if a big name comes up ,we should entertain an offer . What I am afraid of is we will get our share of tourney bids ,reach the sweet 16 from time to time but will never be serious contenders for a final 4 or be a top 5 team. Sorry ,I want to shoot for the stars .I guess thats part of my alien nature.
Quote from: bma725 on March 23, 2009, 03:02:19 PM
MU is not in the position for an elite coach. No elite coach is going to leave their job to come here, we're not a stop up. No elite coach that is currently retired or working in the pros is going to come here either. The only choice you've got is between up an coming assistants, mid major coaches, and retreads that didn't work out at their last job. We're never going to be the place that goes and gets the head coach from another major school.
Despite what you may want to believe, the reality is that Crean's success did not turn MU into a destination job. It improved Crean's standing in the coaching community, but that's it. MU is still seen by a lot of the great coaches out there as a place that used to be important, as a place that is over it's head in the Big East, and as a place to stay away from because too much work is required to make it to the top. Money doesn't change that unless it's T Boone Pickens money, and we don't have that.
I attended MU in McGuire's 2nd year, 1965, his first reruiting class and first big star George Thomson. McGuire wet 14-12 his first 2 seasons. If we had boards like this back in 1965, McGuire would have been considered one of the worst hires as basketball coach. Calhoun and Beheine (spelling?) were not successful for many years at Uconn and Cuse. All hires are a risk. Buzz reminds me of Al. You get the players I am a great coach, you don't show me the door. Hope Buzz has a run like Al did, but Buzz's job is twice as hard. Looking forward to next season.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 23, 2009, 03:00:14 PM
That was my original argument 12 months ago....we were paying $1.6M per year, finally had the facilities, had the conference and had all the momentum....thus try to get an elite coach. Try to make a statement. Try to hire like the upper echelon does. I mean, was Memphis any better at the time they hired Caliprari then MU last year? Nope. But we like to do things a bit differently.
What elite coaches were out there for the taking? Give some names of coaches who were a) looking for a new gig and b) interested in the Marquette job. As far as I can tell, that eliminates Miller and Bennett, who turned down more money from a more prestigious program than MU. And, really, who other than Wisconsin types believes Tony Bennett is an elite coach.
Secondly, plenty of the the upper echelons hire
exactly the way MU did. I went through this yesterday, but didn't Pitt promote from within? Didn't Gonzaga? Didn't Xavier? Didn't Villanova, in a roundabout way?
And the fact is, no matter how some wish it weren't so, Marquette is much, much closer to those schools than to "upper echelon" programs that can steal an elite coach from another school (i.e. UNC, Kansas, UCLA). Sorry, but MU is not prying Calipari from Memphis or Donovan from Florida. Or even Miller from Xavier. Most would cosnider that a step down, and none of those guys are looking to make a step down.
Quote from: bma725 on March 23, 2009, 03:08:50 PM
And we'd compromise what we are as a university to do it, so it will never happen.
MU is never going to hire a guy with as many skeletons in the closet as Cal or Tim Floyd or anyone like that.
+1
I'll take finishing 25-10 in the second round in the NCAAs with 100% Graduation and Buzz Williams over making the final four with some miserable graduation rate with Calpari any day of the year.
We are an upstanding institution in every way, and hiring a coach like Calpari would ruin that image.
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 23, 2009, 03:13:16 PM
You have a point ,MU won't hire a guy like Calipari or Floyd or Knight .These are the Holy Jesuits we are dealing with ,I forgot .Ok,I opened up the can of worms ,Come get me .
If you'd rather root for a school that sacrifices integrity for wins, go someplace else. We don't want you here, and you'd be happier elsewhere anyway.
Quote from: The General on March 23, 2009, 02:27:06 PM
From which perspective?
On court, yes, we underachieved both years and whiffed badly in recruiting in 2003 and 2004 (of those classes, only Marcus Jackson, Mike Kinsella, and Barro finished at MU). But don't forget that the 2004-2005 team got off to a 12-1 start, and Diener only played in 8 conference games (bad ankle before breaking the hand). When he was on the floor and healthy, it was a good team, probably an NCAA team even. When he was hurt, it was a miserable team.
Off-court, let's see: we get an invite to the Big East, and we land the Amigos. Those two things set the stage for the next four years, as brutal as the on-court product was.
I don't see how Crean leaving after the Final Four could have caused recruiting in 2003 and 2004 to be any worse, perhaps another coach could have done better?
I also think that Marquette gets the invite to the BE without Crean as well.
This is probably a silly discussion b/c there is nothing we can do about the past, but I was simply pointing out that we had a better chance of hiring a big name "elite" coach in 2003 than we did when Crean left last year.
You have to have continued success over many years. Right now, Xavier has a better program than we do. However, I believe that Buzz is moving us in the right direction.
Go Warriors. Crush 2009-2010.
Now, Go Cubbies.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 23, 2009, 03:02:02 PM
Tim Floyd? Ugh.
Do you really want a who runs a shady program and whose teams perpetually underachieve?
Tim Floyd isn't that shady. Can't really blame the OJ Mayo situation on him... the NCAA investigated it before they even let him enroll and cleared him.
I agree that giving Romeo Miller a scholarship to land DeRozan is a little shady, but other than that I think Tim Floyd is a fairly honorable coach.
The guy has largely won at programs that have had zero business being successful from Idaho to UNO to ISU.
With his midwest connections and NBA resume, I think it would have been a perfect fit and at the time he was on the way out with the Bulls and looking for job.
Quote from: Tribby on March 23, 2009, 02:41:39 PM
I'm about as anti-Buzz as anyone, and even I don't think you can fire him this offseason. I have serious doubts about his ability as a coach, but he hasn't yet had an adequate chance to prove me wrong. And I hope he does.
Agree. I'm also fairly anti-Buzz (hell, I called him numnuts the other day), but you have to give him 2-3 years to see what he can do with his own players.
So far he has shown to be a hell of a first year recruiter, but whether he can pull of multiple recruiting classes of this caliber remains to be seen. My fear with Buzz is that he may not have a clue as to how to develop that talent or make the correct in game decisions.
I hope he proves me wrong.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 23, 2009, 02:22:31 PM
Outside of 15-20 programs across the country, who isn't? I have to ask again what the point is.
More often than not, elite coach and elite programs are one in the same. The coach either built the elite program (Calhoun/UConn, Olson/Arizona), or walked into an elite program because he had success elsewhere (Howland/UCLA, Self/Kansas).
+1. Are there any eliete coaches who didn't start off as just another assistant? Coaching is a life long skill, i'd rather get the guy on the way up than getting over the hill. Buzz showed me enough to be happy with the prospect of giving him a few years and see what classes he brings in and what games he can win.
Quote from: SCdem@MU on March 23, 2009, 03:52:15 PM
Tim Floyd isn't that shady. Can't really blame the OJ Mayo situation on him... the NCAA investigated it before they even let him enroll and cleared him.
I agree that giving Romeo Miller a scholarship to land DeRozan is a little shady, but other than that I think Tim Floyd is a fairly honorable coach.
The guy has largely won at programs that have had zero business being successful from Idaho to UNO to ISU.
With his midwest connections and NBA resume, I think it would have been a perfect fit and at the time he was on the way out with the Bulls and looking for job.
How about Floyd turning a blind eye to the flat-screen televisions and thousands of dollars in clothes Mayo was getting from a street agent while at USC?
Or about him hiring a recruit's dad as his strength and conditioning coach and not only landing the kid (who was a starter this year), but not having to use a scholie on him since employees' kids go tuition-free?
And, for what it's worth, Iowa State had five 20-win seasons in the decade before Tim Floyd landed in Ames.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 23, 2009, 04:13:00 PM
Or about him hiring a recruit's dad as his strength and conditioning coach and not only landing the kid (who was a starter this year), but not having to use a scholie on him since employees' kids go tuition-free?
Oh man, that's a good idea. Is it against the rules, or just underhanded because we didn't think of it first?
If Calipari is on the block ,he would be a great hire .Besides I believe he is Catholic, not squeeky clean but so what .He would get us to the final 4 .No guarantees with the likes of Buzz . You guys and dolls think Few would come here?
Quote from: SCdem@MU on March 23, 2009, 03:40:30 PM
I don't see how Crean leaving after the Final Four could have caused recruiting in 2003 and 2004 to be any worse, perhaps another coach could have done better?
I also think that Marquette gets the invite to the BE without Crean as well.
This is probably a silly discussion b/c there is nothing we can do about the past, but I was simply pointing out that we had a better chance of hiring a big name "elite" coach in 2003 than we did when Crean left last year.
MU got the invite to the Big East largely because of Crean. I'd hate to have to risk that. I just don't see how we had a "better chance" after 2003 when Wade was leaving then we did last year with a monster team coming back this year. After 2003, we were considered a fluke. After last year, we were considered a stable program that competed in the Big East and had a great returning club. In my mind, much easier to hire a big name last year then in 2003.
Quote from: SCdem@MU on March 23, 2009, 03:57:54 PM
My fear with Buzz is that he may not have a clue as to how to develop that talent
Small sample, you have to be happy with the way Jimmy developed this season, no?
I can't believe people are even suggesting we should be looking for a buzz replacement. He may have made a few rookie *coaching* mistakes. But so far his off the court and recruiting performance is great!
The coaching mistakes can be corrected with experience. I'd also argue the mistakes were not glaring problems, but rather things that only a few superfans (i.e - the people here) would notice.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 23, 2009, 04:27:58 PM
Small sample, you have to be happy with the way Jimmy developed this season, no?
I can't believe people are even suggesting we should be looking for a buzz replacement. He may have made a few rookie *coaching* mistakes. But so far his off the court and recruiting performance is great!
The coaching mistakes can be corrected with experience. I'd also argue the mistakes were not glaring problems, but rather things that only a few superfans (i.e - the people here) would notice.
You missed the whole point here. Do we take a chance on waiting for Buzz to get experience ,not knowing if he WILL succeed or do we get a proven elite entity if available ?
Quote from: Skatastrophy on March 23, 2009, 04:17:45 PM
Oh man, that's a good idea. Is it against the rules, or just underhanded because we didn't think of it first?
Larry Brown thought of it first when he hired Danny Manning's dad as an assistant at Kansas.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 23, 2009, 03:39:04 PM
What elite coaches were out there for the taking? Give some names of coaches who were a) looking for a new gig and b) interested in the Marquette job. As far as I can tell, that eliminates Miller and Bennett, who turned down more money from a more prestigious program than MU. And, really, who other than Wisconsin types believes Tony Bennett is an elite coach.
Secondly, plenty of the the upper echelons hire exactly the way MU did. I went through this yesterday, but didn't Pitt promote from within? Didn't Gonzaga? Didn't Xavier? Didn't Villanova, in a roundabout way?
And the fact is, no matter how some wish it weren't so, Marquette is much, much closer to those schools than to "upper echelon" programs that can steal an elite coach from another school (i.e. UNC, Kansas, UCLA). Sorry, but MU is not prying Calipari from Memphis or Donovan from Florida. Or even Miller from Xavier. Most would cosnider that a step down, and none of those guys are looking to make a step down.
My concern Pakuni is we don't try. We have the woe is me, we're Marquette, we can't compete, we can't even try. I don't know what "elite" coaches were out there, none of us do. You never know until it happens. That's how Arizona State got Herb Sendek. Now, you might not consider Herb an elite coach, but since he's left NC State they have been awful and ASU has done quite well. Those are the types of hires I think some of us are talking about. Sometimes that takes a bit of work, a bit of ruffling the bushes. It's how you get a Mike Montgomery to come back into coaching (another "old guy" that is doing just fine thank you).
I don't necessarily disagree with you on your analysis of us being closer to those schools. In fact, I think you're dead on right....EXCEPT.....last year was the year to finally try. Finally in a position with facilities, conference, success, money to TRY! And by try, I don't mean two guys in 48 hours, I mean actually try for 10 days to 14 days. Buzz isn't going anywhere. Otherwise, yes, we are very similar to Xavier and those other programs. But we were FINALLY in a position of strength for the first time in decades.
Adn yes, plenty of schools do hire the way we did. As I think you will admit, there are examples we can both come up with (and have) to prove our points. Young guys, old guys, experienced guys, assistants, etc have all worked out well or bombed depending on who you choose to bring up to make the point. However, I think comparing Dixon to Buzz is not an apples to apples comparison. Dixon was with Howland for a decade at two different schools, Buzz at MU for 1 year and with Crean for 1 year. Mark Few was with Gonzaga 10 years as an assistant before being promoted to head coach. Those are much much different roads then Buzz. Few was a known quantity at GU by everyone. Sean Miller was an assistant at Xavier for four years, again much different. He was also an assistant before that at major programs like Wisconsin, Pittsburgh, NC State.
Quote from: chuncken on March 23, 2009, 03:39:54 PM
+1
I'll take finishing 25-10 in the second round in the NCAAs with 100% Graduation and Buzz Williams over making the final four with some miserable graduation rate with Calpari any day of the year.
We are an upstanding institution in every way, and hiring a coach like Calpari would ruin that image.
Funny, that's what we did the last three years and plenty of folks here wanted the previous guy gone....and he actually had success year in and year out...he was proven.
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 23, 2009, 04:34:19 PM
You missed the whole point here. Do we take a chance on waiting for Buzz to get experience ,not knowing if he WILL succeed or do we get a proven elite entity if available ?
I have been asking for the point all afternoon, and it still doesn't make any sense. But hey, if Roy Williams, Tom Izzo, or Rick Pitino want to talk about coming to coach at MU, by all means, let's do it. Obviously however, names that belong on that same list are not going to entertain such discussions with MU, making this this is a ridiculously stupid topic.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 23, 2009, 04:13:00 PM
How about Floyd turning a blind eye to the flat-screen televisions and thousands of dollars in clothes Mayo was getting from a street agent while at USC?
Or about him hiring a recruit's dad as his strength and conditioning coach and not only landing the kid (who was a starter this year), but not having to use a scholie on him since employees' kids go tuition-free?
And, for what it's worth, Iowa State had five 20-win seasons in the decade before Tim Floyd landed in Ames.
Do we know if Floyd knew about Mayo?
Nothing illegal about the strength and conditioning coach hiring. I don't like it, but nothing illegal.
Floyd did well at New Orleans and did well at Iowa State and SC, he's just a good coach. By the way, he's one of those guys that was a NBA guy who is doing well at the college level (yes, I know he didn't play in the NBA but he did coach there).
I am sorry ,I don't think Buzz will get us a championship .I guess we will remain content with a sweet 16 from time to time . For me that's mediocre.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 23, 2009, 04:44:48 PM
I have been asking for the point all afternoon, and it still doesn't make any sense. But hey, if Roy Williams, Tom Izzo, or Rick Pitino want to talk about coming to coach at MU, by all means, let's do it. Obviously however, names that belong on that same list are not going to entertain such discussions with MU, making this this is a ridiculously stupid topic.
I think he may mean should we have gone after a guy that was doing it for awhile at the mid major level or higher that has a track record rather than go after an assistant who didn't do well at the mid major level.
Let's face it, we basically did hire a mid major head coach, one year removed from a losing record. The reality of how that record reflects on what was going on down there in the wake of Katrina, etc can certainly be brought up with warranted comments. So the question some would have is whether it happened the year prior, while Buzz was still the head coach at New Orleans, would we have hired Buzz?
I doubt it.
We would have hired someone with a winning record from another school or an assistant from a top flung program.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 23, 2009, 04:50:27 PM
I think he may mean should we have gone after a guy that was doing it for awhile at the mid major level or higher that has a track record rather than go after an assistant who didn't do well at the mid major level.
No, no he doesn't. A bit up the page he advocated firing Buzz in favor of an ELITE coach, whatever that means exactly...so far the only example cited has been John Calipari, as in, lets go after him and fire Buzz.
By the way, a good discussion on this thread. Inciteful. Enjoying it.
Nobody is right or wrong on this thing as only the future will tell us, and even then it's inconclusive. It's impossible to say if someone else were hired if they would have done better or worse, but I think we all hope Buzz does well and keeps MU in the top 25.
I have spent the whole time I have been reading this post trying to think of the last coach who was successful at a big state university taking the job at a small private school in the BEast. Some help, please. Who on our 'list' from last year had a better year than MU? Miller has said no to bigger programs than us and views us a lateral move at best. Grant is staying in the south. Lowery? Errrrr, no. Bennet? His style is incompatible with the talent we had. Calipari? Arizona and possibly Kentucky are going to make the annual run at him and fail.
Buzz had convinced the MU administration in the year he was here with Crean that he was the man for the job when Crean left. Lets show an ounce of sanity and give him a couple of more years.
I believe we will hover around the top 25 with Buzz or with the Buzzes of the world ,mainly on the basis of Elite reasons #1 and 2 given on my original post . But why have a weak worker bee buzzing around having a 1 in a million shot at the queen bee i.e .a championship ,instead of a macho worker bee on steroids with a better chance of wooing that queen .
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 23, 2009, 04:45:09 PM
Do we know if Floyd knew about Mayo?
Nothing illegal about the strength and conditioning coach hiring. I don't like it, but nothing illegal.
None of us can say what Floyd knew or didn't know, but he'd have to be pretty blind not to notice and/or get suspicions when the underprivileged kid from West Virginia suddenly is walking around in more expensive clothing than his own. I would hope that if a Marquette recruit shows up on campus next year in an Escalade packed with 60-inch Sony flatscreens and a Ralph Lauren wardrobe, Buzz might suspect something is amiss.
QuoteFloyd did well at New Orleans and did well at Iowa State and SC, he's just a good coach. By the way, he's one of those guys that was a NBA guy who is doing well at the college level (yes, I know he didn't play in the NBA but he did coach there).
Floyd is about as much an NBA coach as Mike Montgomery, John Calipari and Lon Kruger. A guy with a long, successful college run who leaves to fail spectacularly at the pro level, then returns to college is not an NBA guy in my book.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 23, 2009, 04:13:00 PM
How about Floyd turning a blind eye to the flat-screen televisions and thousands of dollars in clothes Mayo was getting from a street agent while at USC?
Or about him hiring a recruit's dad as his strength and conditioning coach and not only landing the kid (who was a starter this year), but not having to use a scholie on him since employees' kids go tuition-free?
I agree that coaches should ask more questions when they see players with expensive clothes and flat screens in their dorm rooms, but what is a coach supposed to do if the player lies and says his great uncle bought it? Some people seem to forget that coaches and colleges don't have investigative powers.
And with regards to Daniel Hackett's dad being the strength coach, yeah I read that piece too, but I also know that he was an excellent player-coach in Italy and actually takes his job pretty seriously at USC. It's not like Floyd hired some bum who has never been in a weight room before.... the guy is actually fairly qualified.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 23, 2009, 04:40:12 PM
My concern Pakuni is we don't try.
I don't know if the administration tried or not, but I'd still like to know who they should have tried with.
By all accounts, MU had inquiries about Miller and Bennett, and were politely declined. If those guys have no interest, what elite coaches would?
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 23, 2009, 04:34:19 PM
You missed the whole point here. Do we take a chance on waiting for Buzz to get experience ,not knowing if he WILL succeed or do we get a proven elite entity if available ?
Alien, I don't think I missed the point. I was just not aware that people, such as yourself, had such unrealistic expectations for Marquette. I thought you must have been missing something, but I guess not.
Yes, Marquette
should have hired an elite coach. However, Marquette
could not hire an elite coach for many reasons that people have already stated.
Given that fact, we have buzz now. And I have no reason to believe he was the wrong guy to hire.
I guess we'll just have to differ in opinions here.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 23, 2009, 04:27:58 PM
Small sample, you have to be happy with the way Jimmy developed this season, no?
I can't believe people are even suggesting we should be looking for a buzz replacement. He may have made a few rookie *coaching* mistakes. But so far his off the court and recruiting performance is great!
The coaching mistakes can be corrected with experience. I'd also argue the mistakes were not glaring problems, but rather things that only a few superfans (i.e - the people here) would notice.
Yes. I was very pleased with how Jimmy Butler came along. Although I do wonder why Buzz never let him attempt a three point shot. From what I've read, Butler was a good three point shooter in junior college. Perhaps if he had some confidence in it he hits that trey at the end of the shot clock?
My issue with Buzz is that he gave James and McNeal carte blanche to do whatever they wanted and yanked others if they so much as sneezed wrong in the first 30 seconds they were in. Same thing with the lack of time outs, he seems content to let "his players play" rather then call a time out and do some coaching/teaching.
He seems like a great guy that players relate to for one reason or another, but that does not necessarily make him a good coach.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 23, 2009, 05:16:21 PM
None of us can say what Floyd knew or didn't know, but he'd have to be pretty blind not to notice and/or get suspicions when the underprivileged kid from West Virginia suddenly is walking around in more expensive clothing than his own. I would hope that if a Marquette recruit shows up on campus next year in an Escalade packed with 60-inch Sony flatscreens and a Ralph Lauren wardrobe, Buzz might suspect something is amiss.
Floyd is about as much an NBA coach as Mike Montgomery, John Calipari and Lon Kruger. A guy with a long, successful college run who leaves to fail spectacularly at the pro level, then returns to college is not an NBA guy in my book.
I would argue it is and I'm sure Floyd, Montgomery, Calipari and Kruger use it in recruiting. They can say, "I know playing in the NBA is important to you, I've been there and this what I think you need to work on to get there and when its time for you to make that jump, I have X people/resources that I can call at the drop of a hat who will be able to help you."
What do you think Buzz says to that? "I have a little black book of coaches Ive stalked over the years, let me see which ones are in the NBA and may be able to help us down the road.."?
Quote from: SCdem@MU on March 23, 2009, 05:54:23 PM
Yes. I was very pleased with how Jimmy Butler came along. Although I do wonder why Buzz never let him attempt a three point shot. From what I've read, Butler was a good three point shooter in junior college. Perhaps if he had some confidence in it he hits that trey at the end of the shot clock?
My issue with Buzz is that he gave James and McNeal carte blanche to do whatever they wanted and yanked others if they so much as sneezed wrong in the first 30 seconds they were in. Same thing with the lack of time outs, he seems content to let "his players play" rather then call a time out and do some coaching/teaching.
He seems like a great guy that players relate to for one reason or another, but that does not necessarily make him a good coach.
It wasn't a question of Buzz not letting Jimmy shoot them. In fact if you go back and listen to Jimmy's interviews the coaching staff and players implored him to shoot from the perimeter because he's got a good stroke. He chose not to because he wasn't confident in the shot. He was a 42% shooter in JUCO, but he attempted barely more than 1 shot from beyond the arc per game, and said himself that it's something he'll work on over the summer for next year.
Quote from: bma725 on March 23, 2009, 06:05:18 PM
It wasn't a question of Buzz not letting Jimmy shoot them. In fact if you go back and listen to Jimmy's interviews the coaching staff and players implored him to shoot from the perimeter because he's got a good stroke. He chose not to because he wasn't confident in the shot. He was a 42% shooter in JUCO, but he attempted barely more than 1 shot from beyond the arc per game, and said himself that it's something he'll work on over the summer for next year.
Interesting, I wonder why he didn't then. Perhaps they could have drawn up some plays out of time outs or inbounds plays during garbage time/weak opponents for Butler to take a three pointer?
Seems silly to me that if you know a player is good at outside shooting that you don't try some creative ways to get him some confidence. Simply telling the kid to "take more open three point shots" isn't exactly coaching...
Quote from: tower912 on March 23, 2009, 05:04:13 PM
I have spent the whole time I have been reading this post trying to think of the last coach who was successful at a big state university taking the job at a small private school in the BEast. Some help, please. Who on our 'list' from last year had a better year than MU? Miller has said no to bigger programs than us and views us a lateral move at best. Grant is staying in the south. Lowery? Errrrr, no. Bennet? His style is incompatible with the talent we had. Calipari? Arizona and possibly Kentucky are going to make the annual run at him and fail.
Buzz had convinced the MU administration in the year he was here with Crean that he was the man for the job when Crean left. Lets show an ounce of sanity and give him a couple of more years.
Miller is smart not to take the MU job. He's king of the mtn at Xavier in a conference they will dominate. But if Dixon goes to UA, he's going to take the Pitt job at his alma mater.
But I don't think comparing this year with Buzz to the years Bennett or others had is appropriate. It again comes down to what would they have done with this team and what would Buzz have done with their teams. The talent levels were enormously different. Wazzu was in a rebuilding year while we were set up for a monster year.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 23, 2009, 05:16:21 PM
None of us can say what Floyd knew or didn't know, but he'd have to be pretty blind not to notice and/or get suspicions when the underprivileged kid from West Virginia suddenly is walking around in more expensive clothing than his own. I would hope that if a Marquette recruit shows up on campus next year in an Escalade packed with 60-inch Sony flatscreens and a Ralph Lauren wardrobe, Buzz might suspect something is amiss.
Floyd is about as much an NBA coach as Mike Montgomery, John Calipari and Lon Kruger. A guy with a long, successful college run who leaves to fail spectacularly at the pro level, then returns to college is not an NBA guy in my book.
I guess it comes down to what did Mayo "have" before coming to USC. There are an awful lot of people out there with expensive clothes, cars, jewelry and they don't have a pot to piss in.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 23, 2009, 05:16:21 PM
Floyd is about as much an NBA coach as Mike Montgomery, John Calipari and Lon Kruger. A guy with a long, successful college run who leaves to fail spectacularly at the pro level, then returns to college is not an NBA guy in my book.
We will have to disagree on that one. Those coaches can tell recruits that they have been in the NBA and know what it takes to play at that level. Whether you believe it or not, that's another story. But they do have that capability of being on the inside as a coach to sell that dream to a kid. Just as Butch Davis is doing now in the NFL or Pete Carroll has done at USC.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 23, 2009, 06:33:05 PM
I guess it comes down to what did Mayo "have" before coming to USC. There are an awful lot of people out there with expensive clothes, cars, jewelry and they don't have a pot to piss in.
Yeah people used "easy credit" to get all kinds of things they couldn't afford. I knew kids at Marquette that had flat screens and BMWs, some were rich kids, some probably sold illegal substances, some racked up massive credit card debit. I knew one girl at Marquette that racked up $80K in debt in ONE YEAR of college on mostly bars, clubs, and fancy winter break/spring break trips.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 23, 2009, 06:35:50 PM
We will have to disagree on that one. Those coaches can tell recruits that they have been in the NBA and know what it takes to play at that level. Whether you believe it or not, that's another story. But they do have that capability of being on the inside as a coach to sell that dream to a kid. Just as Butch Davis is doing now in the NFL or Pete Carroll has done at USC.
I made the same point: http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=14181.msg127121#msg127121. :)
Quote from: SCdem@MU on March 23, 2009, 06:39:55 PM
Yeah people used "easy credit" to get all kinds of things they couldn't afford. I knew kids at Marquette that had flat screens and BMWs, some were rich kids, some probably sold illegal substances, some racked up massive credit card debit. I knew one girl at Marquette that racked up $80K in debt in ONE YEAR of college on mostly bars, clubs, and fancy winter break/spring break trips.
Just look at our congresswoman down here in Long Beach. Owned three homes and defaulted on them because she was so overextended.
Well , the bailed out banksters and AIG biggies don't have to worry .We printed enough money which we will pay for with hyperinflation and taxes to furthur support their lavish lifestyles . Time to move this thread to another board .
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 23, 2009, 06:31:26 PM
But I don't think comparing this year with Buzz to the years Bennett or others had is appropriate. It again comes down to what would they have done with this team and what would Buzz have done with their teams. The talent levels were enormously different. Wazzu was in a rebuilding year while we were set up for a monster year.
Who's fault was it that Wazzu is in a rebuilding year? He was the lead assistant with the job promised to him when Dick Bennett took the job and he had two seasons before this. Even with all that PT available he was only able to get one top 100 recruit in 2008. He's shown no ability to recruit the kind of talent necessary to not have this be a rebuilding year, nor does it look like the future is brighter given what he's got in the fold. He's lived off his father's success, and now he's got a roster full of two star players.
Further, Bennett is a system guy. Always has been. Not as much as his dad, but he has a very definite set of rules for what you do on offense and how you play defense. None of those things fit the talent that was on the MU roster when the season started. Given his dedication to his basketball theories, who's to say he wouldn't have come in and done worse because he tried to make the players fit his system.
Quote from: bma725 on March 23, 2009, 07:39:24 PM
Who's fault was it that Wazzu is in a rebuilding year? He was the lead assistant with the job promised to him when Dick Bennett took the job and he had two seasons before this. Even with all that PT available he was only able to get one top 100 recruit in 2008. He's shown no ability to recruit the kind of talent necessary to not have this be a rebuilding year, nor does it look like the future is brighter given what he's got in the fold. He's lived off his father's success, and now he's got a roster full of two star players.
Further, Bennett is a system guy. Always has been. Not as much as his dad, but he has a very definite set of rules for what you do on offense and how you play defense. None of those things fit the talent that was on the MU roster when the season started. Given his dedication to his basketball theories, who's to say he wouldn't have come in and done worse because he tried to make the players fit his system.
I don't disagree with your comments, but still think the comparison isn't valid. Buzz inherited a loaded team....what will Buzz's third year look like compared to Bennett's third year. Wouldn't that be a better comparison?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 23, 2009, 07:43:01 PM
I don't disagree with your comments, but still think the comparison isn't valid. Buzz inherited a loaded team....what will Buzz's third year look like compared to Bennett's third year. Wouldn't that be a better comparison?
It may be that the third year will be a better comparison. But if you just dismiss the results because Buzz inherited a loaded team, you ignore the fact that reason the comparison isn't valid is because Bennett screwed up.
Bennett has shown nothing to suggest he's able to recruit talent to compete in the Big East, he struggles to compete in the weaker PAC-10 with his own players. Given how long he was there as coach in waiting, how many scholarships he's had to offer, and how much playing time he's had available, the fact that he's been able to get a grand total of one top 100 player ever should be a major red flag on the guy.
We've all talked about how much easier it is to recruit when you've got a lot of playing time to offer. Some have even dismissed Buzz's class next year because there is a lot of PT available. What does it say about Bennett's recruiting then, when he had more PT available than Buzz will, he had a better track record as a head coach, he was coming off a Sweet 16....and he could only get one Top 100 player.
Quote from: bma725 on March 23, 2009, 08:48:30 PM
It may be that the third year will be a better comparison. But if you just dismiss the results because Buzz inherited a loaded team, you ignore the fact that reason the comparison isn't valid is because Bennett screwed up.
Bennett has shown nothing to suggest he's able to recruit talent to compete in the Big East, he struggles to compete in the weaker PAC-10 with his own players. Given how long he was there as coach in waiting, how many scholarships he's had to offer, and how much playing time he's had available, the fact that he's been able to get a grand total of one top 100 player ever should be a major red flag on the guy.
We've all talked about how much easier it is to recruit when you've got a lot of playing time to offer. Some have even dismissed Buzz's class next year because there is a lot of PT available. What does it say about Bennett's recruiting then, when he had more PT available than Buzz will, he had a better track record as a head coach, he was coming off a Sweet 16....and he could only get one Top 100 player.
Right, but without knowing if Buzz will screwup in year 3 is why I don't think you can compare the two.
I also think it's a LOT harder to recruit to Pullman, Washington then it is Milwaukee, WI. Talk about an outpost. I'm surprised he can get anyone to come up there.
Buzz still has a lot to learn, but the idea he cannot coach is just plain stupid. MU loses James and are down significantly at halftime against Villanona and Missouri and the team comes out in the second half and comes back to take leads. That does not happen if he is a bad coach. He kept this team playing together all year in the toughest conference in college basketball.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 23, 2009, 04:41:52 PM
Funny, that's what we did the last three years and plenty of folks here wanted the previous guy gone....and he actually had success year in and year out...he was proven.
I extend this to Crean too... I was fine with him when he was here. My only gripe ever was with how he left, and maybe a lack of a big man, but I thought he did a great job here.
Quote from: bilsu on March 23, 2009, 10:16:03 PM
Buzz still has a lot to learn, but the idea he cannot coach is just plain stupid. MU loses James and are down significantly at halftime against Villanona and Missouri and the team comes out in the second half and comes back to take leads. That does not happen if he is a bad coach. He kept this team playing together all year in the toughest conference in college basketball.
I agree with you that he can coach, but let's also not forget that even "coaches" like Pat Kennedy won a lot of games and took teams to the NCAAs. I thought Buzz made some great adjustments this year. On the other hand, I thought yesterday's first half we looked ill prepared and were running around with our heads cut off. It was street ball. I commend him for the halftime adjustment but wonder what the heck we were doing in the first half. So it's one of those areas where I felt we screwed up but at least had the smarts to get it right by the second half.
OMG
this thread is the longest example of mental masturbation ever.
Buzz is going nowhere for at least two more years. The Jebs would never consider cutting him loose sooner.
I can't believe you guys are even debating this.
Quote from: mu-rara on March 24, 2009, 08:49:58 AM
OMG
this thread is the longest example of mental masturbation ever.
Buzz is going nowhere for at least two more years. The Jebs would never consider cutting him loose sooner.
I can't believe you guys are even debating this.
I disagree ,you can say most of the threads are mental masturbation on this board . This is an important fundamental topic.We may continue to wallow in the middle of the Big East for a long time and I don't want that . I want to be at or near the top of the conference and therefore sweet 16 or better most of the time. I do not believe this "learn on the fly coach " or any similar unexperienced coach will do that .I believe a caliperi-type coach can do that .However ,I agree, that the Jesuits will not do squat .They have their donations,and don't give a crap about the non-rich alumni .They will make plenty off of this"almost" team and they will continue with their golden chicken feces.
Quote from: mu-rara on March 24, 2009, 08:49:58 AM
OMG
this thread is the longest example of mental masturbation ever.
Buzz is going nowhere for at least two more years. The Jebs would never consider cutting him loose sooner.
I can't believe you guys are even debating this.
Yeah he's going nowhere soon. Talking about 'What ifs' or arguing about if we can judge him now or if we have to wait a few years to get a bigger sample size of data is a waste of time. As opposed to all the other threads that will move the human race forward and cause a brighter future for our children.
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 24, 2009, 10:57:26 AM
I disagree ,you can say most of the threads are mental masturbation on this board . This is an important fundamental topic.We may continue to wallow in the middle of the Big East for a long time and I don't want that . I want to be at or near the top of the conference and therefore sweet 16 or better most of the time. I do not believe this "learn on the fly coach " or any similar unexperienced coach will do that .I believe a caliperi-type coach can do that .However ,I agree, that the Jesuits will not do squat .They have their donations,and don't give a crap about the non-rich alumni .They will make plenty off of this"almost" team and they will continue with their golden chicken feces.
More specifically, this is mental masturbation at this time. We'll have a better idea what kind of coach Buzz is after next year. At least two years before the Jesuits would even consider a change.
I am happy with the job Buzz did this year. Sure there are things he could have done better.
He had a good recruiting year. Did the best with the talent he had (total roster was short talent wise, Big 4 awesome).
I look for a tough start next year working in a lot of new talent, but playing well in February and March. I am not requiring an NCAA bid for a successful year, but improvement form beginning to end is required.
Quote from: mu-rara on March 24, 2009, 11:08:02 AM
More specifically, this is mental masturbation at this time. We'll have a better idea what kind of coach Buzz is after next year. At least two years before the Jesuits would even consider a change.
I am happy with the job Buzz did this year. Sure there are things he could have done better.
He had a good recruiting year. Did the best with the talent he had (total roster was short talent wise, Big 4 awesome).
I look for a tough start next year working in a lot of new talent, but playing well in February and March. I am not requiring an NCAA bid for a successful year, but improvement form beginning to end is required.
You are a patient person ra ra .I agree that Buzz did a good job ,just feel an higher profile coach would make us a more elite program, thats it .
Please refer to my post on the thread-would marquette leave the Big East.
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 24, 2009, 11:36:36 AM
You are a patient person ra ra .I agree that Buzz did a good job ,just feel an higher profile coach would make us a more elite program, thats it .
I'm not a huge fan of correcting people's grammar, especially on an internet forum, but please learn how to use proper spacing when typing. It really is getting annoying.
Who are these elite coaches you think MU can get? You listed Calipari before, which I don't really think is realistic, but who else do you think MU should go after that they can actually get?
Quote from: jmayer1 on March 24, 2009, 11:45:50 AM
I'm not a huge fan of correcting people's grammar, especially on an internet forum, but please learn how to use proper spacing when typing. It really is getting annoying.
Who are these elite coaches you think MU can get? You listed Calipari before, which I don't really think is realistic, but who else do you think MU should go after that they can actually get?
I was a math major . I am not a writer and don't care about spacing . My grammar is correct and believe the content of my message is more important . You are a bit too anal sir or madam . If you read the prior posts , many more examples of more qualified coaches were mentioned .
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 24, 2009, 11:53:56 AM
the content of my message is more important
Dude, the content of your messages is delusional thinking.
Buzz is not going anywhere. Marquette is not leaving the Big East.
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 24, 2009, 11:53:56 AM
I was a math major . I am not a writer and don't care about spacing . My grammar is correct and believe the content of my message is more important . You are a bit too anal sir or madam . If you read the prior posts , many more examples of more qualified coaches were mentioned .
Hard to believe a math major wouldn't care about spacing, or precision, or the basic ability to communicate according to rules. Is your keyboard broken?
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 24, 2009, 11:58:24 AM
Dude, the content of your messages is delusional thinking.
Buzz is not going anywhere. Marquette is not leaving the Big East.
Are you a psychiatrist ? Please do not refer to me as delusional or any other term . I am simply posting my thoughts in a respectable manner. I know Buzz is not leaving .I never said he was . I never said he was a bad coach or bad recruiter .I am a fan .I want to win and want to win soon .I simply believe a rookie coach will delay the process .
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 24, 2009, 11:53:56 AM
If you read the prior posts , many more examples of more qualified coaches were mentioned .
What are you talking about? Yes a number of names were brought up of guys who were looked at a year ago, but politely declined (Miller and Bennett specifically). I'll echo the question, but not expect an answer because it has been asked of you many times to no avail, but who exactly are these qualified/elite coaches that
YOU think MU should go after that could reasonably be expected to consider it?
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 24, 2009, 11:53:56 AM
I was a math major . I am not a writer and don't care about spacing . My grammar is correct and believe the content of my message is more important . You are a bit too anal sir or madam . If you read the prior posts , many more examples of more qualified coaches were mentioned .
Your major has nothing to do with being able to properly type at a level any 3rd grader would be expected to achieve.
You have not mentioned a coach other than Calipari. Others have mentioned guys that rebuffed offers from MU, but I don't think know if those guys were exactly "elite" either. Please give examples of "elite" coaches you think MU could lure to Milwaukee?
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 24, 2009, 12:16:48 PM
Are you a psychiatrist ? Please do not refer to me as delusional or any other term . I am simply posting my thoughts in a respectable manner. I know Buzz is not leaving .I never said he was . I never said he was a bad coach or bad recruiter .I am a fan .I want to win and want to win soon .I simply believe a rookie coach will delay the process .
For some reason, there are people here that think if you write a post that questions anything about Buzz...his tie...it means you hate him or want him fired. I don't know why. There can't be more than 1% of the people on this board that want him fired yet if folks dare to question a few things, you're so labeled as one of those people.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 24, 2009, 12:59:22 PM
For some reason, there are people here that think if you write a post that questions anything about Buzz...his tie...it means you hate him or want him fired. I don't know why.
There are also people on this board who think Buzz should be fired, now, in favor of an
Elite Coach, because after all this is a business. AlienWarrior's words, not mine....
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 24, 2009, 12:16:48 PM
Yes ,you fire him .This is a BUSINESS .
I agree ,beyond Calipari and Few ,and maybe Stevens, there are not too many elite coaches available. We will see what happens after the tourney. I am not familiar with all the mid major coaches who have had success and have more experience.
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 24, 2009, 11:53:56 AM
I was a math major . I am not a writer and don't care about spacing . My grammar is correct and believe the content of my message is more important . You are a bit too anal sir or madam . If you read the prior posts , many more examples of more qualified coaches were mentioned .
Do you not realize we have a great class coming in? you realize we fire buzz and hire someone else that we would lose 2 or 3 of those guys? Our team would be terrible next year and worse the year after that if we lose this class.
What exactly does buzz do that makes you so sure he can't become a good coach and take us to the point where we are a national recruiting draw? the biggest problem people have with him so far is that he doesn't use time outs well. what is easier to learn? when to call a time out or how to recruit? That is the easiest problem to fix.
You say you're not patient but you want us to go into next year without viable starters by getting rid of a first year coach who brough in a top 20 class and went 12 and 6 in one of the best conferences ever. That isn't enough to get you interested in what will happen next? We could have been a top 5 team at the end of the year if there wasn't a freak injury. Why fire that guy? We aren't kansas, UNC or *caugh*Indiana*caugh*
If we could have gotten an elite guy last year i would have been all for it, but there is no way we should be risking this class for your unlikely (imo nearly impossible) pipe dram. get over it, or it will just be you against a hundred people rolling their eyes at you every time you post.
Quote from: jmayer1 on March 24, 2009, 12:49:49 PM
Your major has nothing to do with being able to properly type at a level any 3rd grader would be expected to achieve.
You must really be appalled at Mr. Hayward then....a.k.a. the iddiot (sic)
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 24, 2009, 01:03:30 PM
There are also people on this board who think Buzz should be fired, now, in favor of an Elite Coach, because after all this is a business. AlienWarrior's words, not mine....
[/quote
Yes ,he would be fired if we found a better coach
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 24, 2009, 01:08:00 PM
I am not familiar with all the mid major coaches who have had success and have more experience.
So now we're looking at the Mid-Major coaches as a possible replacement? How on earth does that equate to an
elite coach?
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 24, 2009, 12:16:48 PM
Are you a psychiatrist ? Please do not refer to me as delusional or any other term.
I apologize. I am not a psychiatrist. I used the word delusional because I think your belief that Marquette would quickly ascend to the top of the BE with an "elite" coach is inherently false. I didn't mean it as an insult.
For a moment, I'll ignore whether any coach is available (except I'm also assuming we can't get an existing Big East coach)....who would you take?
Roy Williams? Yes, he'd probably have us competing for the top 8 Big East spots - but we did that this year.
Billy Donovan? Yes, he'd probably have us competing for the top 8 Big East spots - but we did that this year.
Tom Crean? Whoops :P
Calipari? Yes, he'd probably have us competing for the top 8 Big East spots - but we did that this year.
Izzo? Yes, he'd probably have us competing for the top 8 Big East spots - but we did that this year.
Krzyzewski? Yes, he'd probably have us competing for the top 8 Big East spots - but we did that this year.
You can't convince me that ANY of these guys would have done better with Marquette this year, or have us in a better situation going into next year. They still have to compete with Calhoun, Pitino, Boeheim, JT3, Wright, Dixon, & Huggins. There's not a single coach in the country that could guarantee us a top 4 spot every year! Heck, JT3 couldn't even stay in the top 8 this year with a LOADED team.
We're in a good situation. You even seem to partially admit that. Why mess it up by getting rid of Buzz now?
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 24, 2009, 01:03:30 PM
There are also people on this board who think Buzz should be fired, now, in favor of an Elite Coach, because after all this is a business. AlienWarrior's words, not mine....
1% at most.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 24, 2009, 01:13:43 PM
So now we're looking at the Mid-Major coaches as a possible replacement? How on earth does that equate to an elite coach?
It may or may not. For some reason people are hung up on elite coaches only being at major institutions. That's silly. Was Bo Ryan not an elite coach at the DIII level? There are many elite coaches that have chosen to be where they are or haven't taken the next step for whatever reason, doesn't make them any less talented as a coach because of the school they are at. Was Eddie Robinson not an elite coach because he was at Grambling?
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 24, 2009, 01:08:00 PM
I agree ,beyond Calipari and Few ,and maybe Stevens, there are not too many elite coaches available. We will see what happens after the tourney. I am not familiar with all the mid major coaches who have had success and have more experience.
First, Calipari and Few are not available, certainly not to Marquette.
Second, are you talking about Brad Stevens?
The same Brad Stevens who has one NCAA victory on his resume (same number as some guy named Buzz) and two whole years of head coaching experience?
That's your definition of an
elite coach?
And you wonder why some are saying you're delusional?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 24, 2009, 01:28:05 PM
It may or may not. For some reason people are hung up on elite coaches only being at major institutions. That's silly. Was Bo Ryan not an elite coach at the DIII level? There are many elite coaches that have chosen to be where they are or haven't taken the next step for whatever reason, doesn't make them any less talented as a coach because of the school they are at. Was Eddie Robinson not an elite coach because he was at Grambling?
So had MU gone out and hired Jack Bennett would you have praised Cottingham for hiring an elite coach? I sorta doubt it.
And obviously UW didn't think Bo was an elite coach. Had they thought so, he wouldn't have been their (at best) Plan C after Majerus and Ben Braun turned them down.
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 24, 2009, 01:11:22 PM
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 24, 2009, 01:03:30 PM
There are also people on this board who think Buzz should be fired, now, in favor of an Elite Coach, because after all this is a business. AlienWarrior's words, not mine....
[/quote
Yes ,he would be fired if we found a better coach
found? Like if coach K just happened to be walking down wisconsin ave and fell in love with our campus and ran up to cottingham and begged him to? Yes, he'd at least have to think about it. Not going to happen, get over it.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 24, 2009, 01:28:05 PM
It may or may not. For some reason people are hung up on elite coaches only being at major institutions. That's silly. Was Bo Ryan not an elite coach at the DIII level? There are many elite coaches that have chosen to be where they are or haven't taken the next step for whatever reason, doesn't make them any less talented as a coach because of the school they are at.
That's fine. I don't necessarily disagree, but I do have a couple questions...
1. Who are they? Who are these Mid Major/DII coaches that would warrant firing Buzz, as Alien suggested? After all, that was the point of this idiotic thread.
2. What evidence is there that MU would be any better off because of it?
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 24, 2009, 11:53:56 AM
I was a math major . I am not a writer and don't care about spacing . My grammar is correct and believe the content of my message is more important . You are a bit too anal sir or madam . If you read the prior posts , many more examples of more qualified coaches were mentioned .
I think we discovered who ghost writer is for all those Nigerian prince email scams...
Mods, instead of adding a CAPTCHA image to block spam, can you add a spam filter that requires users to complete a basic math problem?
Somehow I doubt this five year old is a math major. It would be interesting to see if he/she could do basic addition and subtraction, let alone multiplication and division.
I'd bet if you added that, we would never see a post from AlienWarrior again.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 24, 2009, 01:32:37 PM
So had MU gone out and hired Jack Bennett would you have praised Cottingham for hiring an elite coach? I sorta doubt it.
And obviously UW didn't think Bo was an elite coach. Had they thought so, he wouldn't have been their (at best) Plan C after Majerus and Ben Braun turned them down.
No, I would not have applauded them. But as UW-Madison has learned, he WAS an elite coach. That's the point, don't let elite only be tied to what institution they are at. Plenty of coaches at elite schools that aren't worth a squirt while others at lesser institutions that are better. Again, you and I both know we could find examples until the cows come home to support either argument. I was merely pointing out that "elite" coach doesn't have to be tied to major program, nor should it.
I've asked several of you a question that hasn't been answered, so let me try again.
If Tom Crean left the year prior to when he did, would Buzz Williams have been hired as head coach coming from New Orleans? I think that's a fair question, yet no one has answered it.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 24, 2009, 02:02:27 PM
If Tom Crean left the year prior to when he did, would Buzz Williams have been hired as head coach coming from New Orleans? I think that's a fair question, yet no one has answered it.
Given the circumstances under which Buzz came here, and the unusually high assistant salary, followed by what transpired last Spring, I would argue he was in fact effectively hired as head coach a year earlier - even if it was not presented as the succession plan at the time.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 24, 2009, 02:02:27 PM
If Tom Crean left the year prior to when he did, would Buzz Williams have been hired as head coach coming from New Orleans? I think that's a fair question, yet no one has answered it.
No. But assuming that we hired a coach that took a job with another school that year, I'm not sure who we would have hired from that bunch.
Our options probably would have been Tubby Smith, John Beilein, Brad Stevens and Rick Majerus part 2. Other than John Beilein, I don't really care for the other names on that list.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006-07_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_season#Coaching_changes
But Bo was a gamble for UW. A lifetime D3'r with only a few years at a mid-major. Every coach is a gamble. Lowery, Bennet (jr), Grant, would have been gambles. Getting out of bed in the morning is a gamble. In 3 years, we will have a pretty good idea whether Buzz pans out. But what happens if after 3-5 years, he has a year like Brey or JT3 just had? Are they lesser coaches because of this year? Which is a bigger gamble, keeping them or replacing them after the year they had? Were they 'elite' coaches a year ago but not now? An amazing, crazy, fickle biz, this head coaching thing.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 24, 2009, 02:02:27 PM
If Tom Crean left the year prior to when he did, would Buzz Williams have been hired as head coach coming from New Orleans? I think that's a fair question, yet no one has answered it.
C'mon now, you know the answer to that you don't need to continually ask it just make your point, we all get it.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 24, 2009, 02:15:36 PM
Given the circumstances under which Buzz came here, and the unusually high assistant salary, followed by what transpired last Spring, I would argue he was in fact effectively hired as head coach a year earlier - even if it was not presented as the succession plan at the time.
That's not answering the question. If Tom Crean had left two years ago instead of one year ago, would Buzz Williams (mid major head coach at New Orleans) have been hired, or better yet, even on the list of candidates? I would argue....no.
Quote from: bma725 on March 24, 2009, 02:36:31 PM
C'mon now, you know the answer to that you don't need to continually ask it just make your point, we all get it.
Since no one answered it, I felt it needed to be asked again. Some people here accuse some of us of not answering a question, I guess I figured if those same people are accusing they need to answer questons posed to them as well.
Quote from: tower912 on March 24, 2009, 02:29:44 PM
But Bo was a gamble for UW. A lifetime D3'r with only a few years at a mid-major. Every coach is a gamble. Lowery, Bennet (jr), Grant, would have been gambles. Getting out of bed in the morning is a gamble. In 3 years, we will have a pretty good idea whether Buzz pans out. But what happens if after 3-5 years, he has a year like Brey or JT3 just had? Are they lesser coaches because of this year? Which is a bigger gamble, keeping them or replacing them after the year they had? Were they 'elite' coaches a year ago but not now? An amazing, crazy, fickle biz, this head coaching thing.
Agreed, all hires are a gamble and a risk, no question about it. So far, this gamble has paid off. Let's hope in yeasr 2-5 it continues.
Quote from: bma725 on March 24, 2009, 02:36:31 PM
C'mon now, you know the answer to that you don't need to continually ask it just make your point, we all get it.
I think its a valid question, but a better question is if Crean had left the year before who would we have hired?
2006-2007 and didn't exactly have a lot of elite coaches sitting on the sidelines or even a large number of successful mid-majors moving up the ranks.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 24, 2009, 02:39:51 PM
That's not answering the question. If Tom Crean had left two years ago instead of one year ago, would Buzz Williams (mid major head coach at New Orleans) have been hired, or better yet, even on the list of candidates? I would argue....no.
No may be the correct answer. What's your point? I can only assume it is that he should not have been hired last year. Why? Not
elite enough? After all, they only had a whole year to observe him up close and personal, coupled with the King of Bloomington's recommendation upon which to base their decision. If that isn't your point, what is?
Quote from: SCdem@MU on March 24, 2009, 01:50:50 PM
Mods, instead of adding a CAPTCHA image to block spam, can you add a spam filter that requires users to complete a basic math problem?
Actually, we've required that for quite a while now (well, you have to answer a "puzzle" question). Check it out. Log off, then go to the register page. I'm *not* asking people to re-register, just saying that's how you can look at it. But it is required to use you brain a tiny little bit to sign up for the site now.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 24, 2009, 02:02:27 PM
No, I would not have applauded them. But as UW-Madison has learned, he WAS an elite coach. That's the point, don't let elite only be tied to what institution they are at. Plenty of coaches at elite schools that aren't worth a squirt while others at lesser institutions that are better. Again, you and I both know we could find examples until the cows come home to support either argument. I was merely pointing out that "elite" coach doesn't have to be tied to major program, nor should it.
OK, wait. All I've heard for (insert number of Buzz days here) from the detractors of the Buzz hire - less from you personally than from others - is how a guy with such little big-time experience never, ever would have been given a look by another school, and was a risky, risky, risky hire by MU.
Now you're saying that where a guy came from doesn't matter.
What in the wide, wide world of sports is going on here?
Which is it ... Buzz's background made him a more inherently risky hire or not?
QuoteIf Tom Crean left the year prior to when he did, would Buzz Williams have been hired as head coach coming from New Orleans? I think that's a fair question, yet no one has answered it.
Probably not, but I don't see how it's relevant.
You could play that game with probably a half-dozen coaching hires every year.
Would Keno Davis have been hired by Providence in 2007?
Would Darrin Horn have been hired by South Carolina in 2007?
Would Travis Ford have been hired by Okie State in 2007?
Even more irrelevant is the question of whether Buzz Williams would have been hired by (insert school here). What's it matter?
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 24, 2009, 02:50:57 PM
Actually, we've required that for quite a while now (well, you have to answer a "puzzle" question). Check it out. Log off, then go to the register page. I'm *not* asking people to re-register, just saying that's how you can look at it. But it is required to use you brain a tiny little bit to sign up for the site now.
Good to know.. its been so long since I registered that I forgot that you had that on the registration page.
I guess AlienWarrior is at least semi literate and knows his basics colors.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 24, 2009, 03:23:45 PM
What in the wide, wide world of sports is going on here?
Between this and the Monty Python reference, I'm enjoying the movie allusions, Pakuni.
There is a candidate out there that meets everyone's criteria. Multiple national championships? Check. Forceful personality? Check. Universally respected? Check. Available? Check. Yet how many people think that MU would be better off going out and trying to get Bobby Knight to replace Buzz? Certainly not me.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 24, 2009, 02:49:15 PM
No may be the correct answer. What's your point? I can only assume it is that he should not have been hired last year. Why? Not elite enough? After all, they only had a whole year to observe him up close and personal, coupled with the King of Bloomington's recommendation upon which to base their decision. If that isn't your point, what is?
My point is that some of the folks that are saying we shouldn't have gone the mid-major route forget to realize that basically that's exactly what we did, hired a mid-major head coach only one year removed. I'd also throw out that that if we were to hire hime after one losing season, people would have had a lot of problems with the hire. As such, when some of these same people poo-poo the resumes of some current mid-major coaches for not accomplishing anything, it's ironic as hell that the very coach we hired didn't either at that same mid-major level.
Maybe I'm the only one that sees that irony, I don't know.
That is a legit point, and frankly, I agree. It is a different discussion from Alien's "Let's fire Buzz Williams and hire Rick Pitino" topic however. Rare, I know...Usually these threads stay so on point.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 24, 2009, 04:51:21 PM
My point is that some of the folks that are saying we shouldn't have gone the mid-major route forget to realize that basically that's exactly what we did, hired a mid-major head coach only one year removed. I'd also throw out that that if we were to hire hime after one losing season, people would have had a lot of problems with the hire. As such, when some of these same people poo-poo the resumes of some current mid-major coaches for not accomplishing anything, it's ironic as hell that the very coach we hired didn't either at that same mid-major level.
Maybe I'm the only one that sees that irony, I don't know.
I would suggest that Buzz's mid-major experience at UNO (one year without his own players, without reasonable facilities, etc.) isn't exactly comparable to what guys like Les, Lowery, Brownell, etc. have experienced at their schools.
Regardless, if you want to play the "what if?" game ... What if Buzz never left A&M? What if he stayed in College Station for two more seasons, and justifiably received credit as Gillespie's top assistant in the revival of that program, setting the stage for its current run of four straight tournament appearances.
Would hiring the top assistant from an up-and-coming program with a reputation as a top-notch recruiter be considered a major (and to some, unnecessary) risk?
I'd guess not.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 24, 2009, 03:23:45 PM
OK, wait. All I've heard for (insert number of Buzz days here) from the detractors of the Buzz hire - less from you personally than from others - is how a guy with such little big-time experience never, ever would have been given a look by another school, and was a risky, risky, risky hire by MU.
Now you're saying that where a guy came from doesn't matter.
What in the wide, wide world of sports is going on here?
Which is it ... Buzz's background made him a more inherently risky hire or not?
Probably not, but I don't see how it's relevant.
You could play that game with probably a half-dozen coaching hires every year.
Would Keno Davis have been hired by Providence in 2007?
Would Darrin Horn have been hired by South Carolina in 2007?
Would Travis Ford have been hired by Okie State in 2007?
Even more irrelevant is the question of whether Buzz Williams would have been hired by (insert school here). What's it matter?
LOL. Pakuni, uhm there is a big difference between a guy that has coached at a mid-major for a number of years vs someone that hasn't been a head coach at all or only for a year or two. Don't you think? You're mixing arguments for some reason. The only reason I brought up where they came from were the posts implying you're not an elite coach if you're not at a major program. That's nonsense and I provided plenty of examples to back up my point. Pete Carril is another example. Tressell of Ohio State (was at Youngstown State prior) is another example. Plenty of fantastic coaches at other levels, that was my only point and it's valid.
It's not an either or situation as you're trying to make it out. Good coaches come from all levels. And yes, they are RISKIER, I would agree, if they come from lower levels in many cases. I just feel and always will that MU didn't have to be this risky at this time in their evolution. It's not like we were a NIT team or in CUSA or the Horizon, or coming off a losing season. The hire looks good so far and he may be the next Wooden.....I hope it's so.
Quote from: warrior07 on March 24, 2009, 03:33:45 PM
Between this and the Monty Python reference, I'm enjoying the movie allusions, Pakuni.
Honestly, when I read Pakuni's stuff I visualize Slim Pickens. ;)
Quote from: Pakuni on March 24, 2009, 05:18:35 PM
I would suggest that Buzz's mid-major experience at UNO (one year without his own players, without reasonable facilities, etc.) isn't exactly comparable to what guys like Les, Lowery, Brownell, etc. have experienced at their schools.
Regardless, if you want to play the "what if?" game ... What if Buzz never left A&M? What if he stayed in College Station for two more seasons, and justifiably received credit as Gillespie's top assistant in the revival of that program, setting the stage for its current run of four straight tournament appearances.
Would hiring the top assistant from an up-and-coming program with a reputation as a top-notch recruiter be considered a major (and to some, unnecessary) risk?
I'd guess not.
Well it stil depends on the situation. When you're at the top of your game, I don't think hiring an assistant is the way to go. If you're down in the crapper then you do (TC and KO as examples). So if MU was in a situation where the risk justified the reward and needed an assistant from a good program, then I'd be happy with Buzz out of A&M. With MU in the situation they were in, well I thought they should have aimed higher or at least tried for a longer period of time.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 24, 2009, 11:16:35 PM
Honestly, when I read Pakuni's stuff I visualize Slim Pickens. ;)
'Blazing Saddles'-era Slim Pickens or 'Dr. Strangelove'-era Slim Pickens?
Quote from: Pakuni on March 24, 2009, 11:40:51 PM
'Blazing Saddles'-era Slim Pickens or 'Dr. Strangelove'-era Slim Pickens?
Clearly it's 'Blazing Saddles.' based on the quote "What in the wide, wide world of sports is going on here?"