http://blog.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/2009/03/dashonte_riley_picks_syracuse.html
Well,
Let's get Darius and develop O'Tule and McMorrow...
Blessing in disguise... let's get a guard now.
Darius Smith or bust.
It's a loss because the kid is tall, that's all.
He must have really wanted to stick it to G'Town...
As other posts have pointed out, we probably do really need to get a guard more. It's up to Otule, McMorrow, and Roseboro to be the three headed monster now.
If we have 2 openings, how about a guard and Glenn Bryant? He's a guy who's still out there and has had some interest in us.
Quote from: Boone on March 05, 2009, 07:55:29 PM
If we have 2 openings, how about a guard and Glenn Bryant? He's a guy who's still out there and has had some interest in us.
I just dont see two spots being open. I think one is a given, two seems unlikely.
Quote from: GOMU1104 on March 05, 2009, 08:04:06 PM
I just dont see two spots being open. I think one is a given, two seems unlikely.
There are sweet nothings being said about that possibility.
It's too bad Riley didn't pick the school he was scheduled to visit five times.
We really needed Riley more. I would like to get Smith, but that is no guarantee.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on March 05, 2009, 07:22:13 PM
He must have really wanted to stick it to G'Town...
As other posts have pointed out, we probably do really need to get a guard more. It's up to Otule, McMorrow, and Roseboro to be the three headed monster now.
Otule, McMorrow, and Roseboro doesn't get me too excited. I hope I'm wrong but your three headed monster sounds more like a shady law firm to me. Hopefully one of the three develops into an adequate player but I think Riley would have been a great get.
Quote from: MUSF on March 05, 2009, 08:45:27 PM
Otule, McMorrow, and Roseboro doesn't get me too excited. I hope I'm wrong but your three headed monster sounds more like a shady law firm to me. Hopefully one of the three develops into an adequate player but I think Riley would have been a great get.
And Otule, McMorrow, Roseboro and Riley sounds like a high powered law firm?
Those of you who thought we didn't face stiff competition from SU and their phenomenal campus (snow albeit aside)well know you're well aware.........
While there were some questions about Riley this seems to continue the trend at MU. In the end the high profile big men go elsewhere while keep our fingers crossed with "the undiscovered". I guess we've got to prove a big man can be successful here first.
Quote from: NotAnAlum on March 05, 2009, 09:09:00 PM
While there were some questions about Riley this seems to continue the trend at MU. In the end the high profile big men go elsewhere while keep our fingers crossed with "the undiscovered". I guess we've got to prove a big man can be successful here first.
Where are the Crean haters?? I thought he was the only one who could not land bigs???
To BMA or other experts, did Buzz ever officially offer Riley? Or was Buzz hoping Riley would wait it out and see if any MU slots cleared? Maybe Riley was going with the sure thing.
Personally, I feel we need a shooting guard to round us out. Saner would have been a good get. I am much more disappointed about finishing #2 in that derby.
At least we didn't have to endure some BS press conference. Do we have a realistic shot at Smith?
Quote from: Pardner on March 05, 2009, 09:22:41 PM
To BMA or other experts, did Buzz ever officially offer Riley? Or was Buzz hoping Riley would wait it out and see if any MU slots cleared? Maybe Riley was going with the sure thing.
There's no such thing as an official offer as coaches aren't allowed to comment on recruits until they have signed an LOI. But yes the offer was extended. Where the scholarship would have come from is only speculation at this point.
Quote from: MarquetteFan94 on March 05, 2009, 09:25:37 PM
At least we didn't have to endure some BS press conference. Do we have a realistic shot at Smith?
Depends on what you mean by realistic. Is he still considering MU? Sure. But he's not named a leader at this point and the list continues to expand to include places like Duke and Memphis.
Two comments:
1) I think this may be a blessing in disguise too. Heard too many things out of Detroit about the kid. Sure, he is literally just a "kid" and obviously a lot can happen. But I didn't like what I was hearing/reading.
2) Yes, where are all the Crean haters out there??? Looks like Buzz can't land a big guy!!!! You hear that? He can't land a big man!!!! C'mon haters...jump down Buzz' throat now hypocrites.
What a week. OK - it is time for good news. Let's win Saturday. Go Marquette!
Quote from: Niv Berkowitz on March 05, 2009, 09:36:50 PM
Two comments:
2) Yes, where are all the Crean haters out there??? Looks like Buzz can't land a big guy!!!! You hear that? He can't land a big man!!!! C'mon haters...jump down Buzz' throat now hypocrites.
Well other than McMorrow, Clark and Roseboro
Quote from: 79Warrior on March 05, 2009, 09:15:32 PM
Where are the Crean haters?? I thought he was the only one who could not land bigs???
Buzz cooled on him ;D
Quote from: GOMU1104 on March 05, 2009, 06:40:32 PM
http://blog.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/2009/03/dashonte_riley_picks_syracuse.html
Phew. Good for MU
Quote from: Marquette_g on March 05, 2009, 09:52:49 PM
Well other than McMorrow, Clark and Roseboro
What makes you think they won't be the next Burke, Hazel, Mbakwe trio.
Look, I said this with Crean; it is hard to get quality/highly rated bigs. That is why Crean, and so far Buzz, have had to get projects or go after guys with questionable character.
Not good. Part of the appeal of Buzz is he would be able to close on prospects like Dashonte, not Liam Mc, Otule types.
Quote from: MUSF on March 05, 2009, 10:28:14 PM
What makes you think they won't be the next Burke, Hazel, Mbakwe trio.
Look, I said this with Crean; it is hard to get quality/highly rated bigs. That is why Crean, and so far Buzz, have had to get projects or go after guys with questionable character.
You mean you can't just go down to the corner Big Man store and order them up? I was certain that's all you had to do after reading so many posts on this board over the years. They're made to order. :-\
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 05, 2009, 10:44:40 PM
You mean you can't just go down to the corner Big Man store and order them up? I was certain that's all you had to do after reading so many posts on this board over the years. They're made to order. :-\
Yeah, if it weren't for Crean, guys like Riley would be beating down the door to come to MU.
The harsh reality, that the Crean haters will never admit, is that there just aren't that many elite big men out there and the ones that do exist don't typically end up at schools like MU.
Will Riley now be at the MU-Cuse game?
I'll be down on Buzz for not being able to recruit a big man after Otule, McMorrow, and Roseboro turn out to be point guards and after Buzz has had as many years to recruit a "big" at MU as his predecessor.
As for Riley, good luck, God bless and enjoy January for the next 4 years. You picked the wrong side of the Great Lakes, kid.
Quote from: ATWizJr on March 05, 2009, 11:26:24 PM
I'll be down on Buzz for not being able to recruit a big man after Otule, McMorrow, and Roseboro turn out to be point guards and after Buzz has had as many years to recruit a "big" at MU as his predecessor.
As for Riley, good luck, God bless and enjoy January for the next 4 years. You picked the wrong side of the Great Lakes, kid.
Arguably the Mason-Dixon line too ... not that the Big East exists in that latitude
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 05, 2009, 10:44:40 PM
You mean you can't just go down to the corner Big Man store and order them up? I was certain that's all you had to do after reading so many posts on this board over the years. They're made to order. :-\
To be fair, at least Buzz has signed 3 guys that are over 6'8" and will be eligible to play next year. Even if Mbakwe had stayed, Otule was the only recruit eligible for that stat since Ooze signed. 2 tall guys in 5 years is NOT enough - even if you have to take projects.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 05, 2009, 11:58:23 PM
To be fair, at least Buzz has signed 3 guys that are over 6'8" and will be eligible to play next year. Even if Mbakwe had stayed, Otule was the only recruit eligible for that stat since Ooze signed. 2 tall guys in 5 years is NOT enough - even if you have to take projects.
Fair enough. However, I believe that Crean made a decision to go after the best players, regardless of position, once he lost out on the top tier bigs. Your opinion is that Crean should have taken some 6'10 projects just to get some size on the floor. I think he thought he could compete with talent and athletes at the guard and wing positions and would rather take his chances with the likes of DJ, Wesley, Jerel, and Lazar than take a risk on some projects. Say what you will about that philosophy but it kept us competitive in the best conference in America and made us tourney regulars, something many other MU coaches could not accomplish.
Time will tell with Buzz. There is no doubt that he has some recruiting chops but landing top tier bigs is not as simple as some would make it seem. I think Buzz will struggle in that respect just like many of his peers.
BTW how is Crean doing with the bigs at IU? Time will also tell if the problem was solely Crean's recruiting abilities or the totality of circumstances while he was at MU. This issue works both ways. If Crean starts pulling elite big men at IU, some people here will have to change their tune.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 05, 2009, 10:44:40 PM
You mean you can't just go down to the corner Big Man store and order them up? I was certain that's all you had to do after reading so many posts on this board over the years. They're made to order. :-\
Gee what will us TC haters have to hang our hat on now?
Only Lazar for the Big 3?
The Brandon Bell Years?
His Tan?
His incredibly wuss-ified fear of going against Izzo?
His Tie?
Niv?
Banners?
Mike Maddux?
How he stopped recruiting post Dom?
How his wife read the message boards more than Chicos. 4ever, DKCL, Hilltopper, & Rocky combined?
How he had Dodds & IWB at Hello, but wasn't man enough to say goodbye?
How Fr. Wild learned of his leaving via ESPN News?
How TC will be run out of town in 5 years b/c he can't win the big one?
Very disappointing, almost like the Michael Snaer loss, so close yet....couldn't close.
Darius Smith being chased by the big boys now, who knows how that will end up.
Jamil Wilson makes his decision Sunday, I'm betting on Mich. State, but one can never tell. I know, Texas, Oregon or MSU, but one can wish.
If someone does leave the program and they don't obtain commitment from Smith or Wilson, then bank it for 2010.
I'd be willing to bet right now Riley doesn't spend four years at SU.
Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on March 06, 2009, 04:22:07 AM
Gee what will us TC haters have to hang our hat on now?
Only Lazar for the Big 3?
The Brandon Bell Years?
His Tan?
His incredibly wuss-ified fear of going against Izzo?
His Tie?
Niv?
Banners?
Mike Maddux?
How he stopped recruiting post Dom?
How his wife read the message boards more than Chicos. 4ever, DKCL, Hilltopper, & Rocky combined?
How he had Dodds & IWB at Hello, but wasn't man enough to say goodbye?
How Fr. Wild learned of his leaving via ESPN News?
How TC will be run out of town in 5 years b/c he can't win the big one?
There will be a list just as long for Buzz if he is here for 9 years.
It's the nature of coaching (and the internet).
Oh, and for the record, Buzz is struggling to land a top tier big man because there just aren't many around. Crean couldn't land one because he's a douche.
If I was a recruit I would pick the school with the open scholarship, not the one where I would be the one over the limit and someone else on the team has to go. It just might be that simple. We don't need 7 footers to win (Stanford), just good players who can tough it out. Which was last team that had a 7 foot starter to win the NCAA?
For what it is worth - Riley's decision has barely even made the news / message boards in Michigan. I saw one post each on two boards with no replies. One post read as follows:
Da'Shonte Riley an Orangeman 9 Hours, 38 Minutes ago
Learn to love the game, big fella, and rewards shall ye reap!
Trust me - he's a project. Not so much physically / skill-wise but mentally. I'd have to think a mntal project is harder to nurture along than a physical / skill-wise project
Quote from: Marquette_g on March 05, 2009, 09:52:49 PM
Well other than McMorrow, Clark and Roseboro
Brings the "big man" discussion back to light: what defines a "big"? Blake Griffin is a big and he's only 6'7'' 1/2. Jeff Adrien is a big and he's only 6'7''. Is Harangody a big?
At this point, Roseboro looks like a classic soft touch 4 man and Clark is more the athletic 4 man like a Shawn Taggert at Memphis. Neither would be the "big man" that MU fans have craved for six years.
Blake Griffin is bigger than 6-7 1/2, Maybe in bare feet which would make him, 6-9 in shoes which is what most people measure with.
Quote from: username on March 06, 2009, 08:18:36 AM
At this point, Roseboro looks like a classic soft touch 4 man and Clark is more the athletic 4 man like a Shawn Taggert at Memphis. Neither would be the "big man" that MU fans have craved for six years.
The problem is that the "big man" that MU fans have craved for years is a rare creature, getting more and more so by the day. There just aren't many classic back to the basket big men anymore. The game has changed to the point where most guys that size just don't want to put up with the constant banging down low.
So what you end up with as back to the basket guys, unless you are one of the truly elite, is project type guys that aren't athletic enough to be face up 4 men, and aren't skilled enough to be a one and done NBA type.
Quote from: MUSF on March 06, 2009, 04:05:34 AM
Time will tell with Buzz. There is no doubt that he has some recruiting chops but landing top tier bigs is not as simple as some would make it seem. I think Buzz will struggle in that respect just like many of his peers.
We agree on that point. 4 and 5 star bigs don't grow on trees (wither that, or there's only a single tree they grwo from...) I can also (realistically) admit that Crean picked up guys based on a possible need. For instance, Acker was brought in to protect against DJ leaving. Mid size projects (Burke, Hazel) were taken and didn't work out great. In general, i thought Crean was a good recruiter, though I would have preferred a little more height.
Other than the tall guys, I'm also excited about E Williams, and Maymon. They sound like athletic guys WITH proven hoops ability. If they can play anything like Hayward, I'll be a happy MU fan.
Anyhow, I think I'm causing thread drift. I'll stop.
Quote from: rugbydrummer on March 05, 2009, 11:42:17 PM
Arguably the Mason-Dixon line too ... not that the Big East exists in that latitude
How exactly would that argument go?
Dont recall people complaining that Crean was not bringing in 4 or 5 star bigs...but Chicos of course will remmeber it that way. People wew complaining that we had 6'6 and 6'7 as our returning bigs this year and apart from ooze we have signed noone over 6'8 in years. most people are intelligent to know you are not goin to sign 1 and doners at the 5 and you need to bring in a big every year so he can matriculate and be ready to perform as a junior. Luckily Buzz like Bo ryan and others know this is how you have good big men to develop them. Crean never got that or never had the patinece either way i could care less he is IU's problem. Since buzz arrived in milwaukke we have signed otule, mcmorrow, roseboro, clark, if one or two of these guys develop we will be in good shape also thro in Mymon who can play the 4, heck wehn is the last itmne we had a true 4?!! let alone a 5. to defend Crean is retarded.
Riley's mind was made up when he visited Syracuse per Zag's blog today. Only visited MU to please his mother. Much ado about nothing.
For those who say Crean can't recruit big men, answer me these questions:
#1. Why is it that within weeks of his going to IU, he was able to land his #1 big man target for 2009....the very same player that refused to commit to Crean while he was at MU, and was slowly eliminating MU from the process(Bobby Capobianco)?
#2. For those who say he only gets short projects, how is that he was able to get one 6'10 player and one 7-footer in his first two IU classes?
Could it be that getting a big man to come to Marquette is a he** of a lot harder than you think, and maybe just maybe the guys he got are the only ones that actually wanted to come here?
Mr Hayward-
I sure hope Buzz doesn't develop bigs like Bo Ryan.
Look at what Bo has had to work with. Butch - A McD All American and Stiemsma and Gavinski 2 top 50 recruits.
Bo is like MUs situation in reverse
While we have to make due with virtual unknown and try to turn them into serviceable centers He takes highly regarded centers and turns them into virtual unknowns.
Quote from: bma725 on March 06, 2009, 10:14:29 AM
For those who say Crean can't recruit big men, answer me these questions:
#1. Why is it that within weeks of his going to IU, he was able to land his #1 big man target for 2009....the very same player that refused to commit to Crean while he was at MU, and was slowly eliminating MU from the process(Bobby Capobianco)?
#2. For those who say he only gets short projects, how is that he was able to get one 6'10 player and one 7-footer in his first two IU classes?
Could it be that getting a big man to come to Marquette is a he** of a lot harder than you think, and maybe just maybe the guys he got are the only ones that actually wanted to come here?
Please do not try to use facts to justify anything Tom Crean has done. You're pro-Crean bias is truly sickening.
Quote from: bma725 on March 06, 2009, 10:14:29 AM
Could it be that getting a big man to come to Marquette is a he** of a lot harder than you think, and maybe just maybe the guys he got are the only ones that actually wanted to come here?
Honestly, I know Crean recruited bigs. But he only landed 2 in the past 7 years.
I don't completely disagree with you, and while they may not all be centers, Buzz has already signed 3 guys over 6'8" in about 10 months. So, is Buzz just that much better at recruiting?
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 06, 2009, 10:51:03 AM
Honestly, I know Crean recruited bigs. But he only landed 2 in the past 7 years.
I don't completely disagree with you, and while they may not all be centers, Buzz has already signed 3 guys over 6'8" in about 10 months. So, is Buzz just that much better at recruiting?
How are we defining bigs, the position they play or by height. Because if it's height he had more than 2 in the last 7 years.
Well that depends. Do you consider McMorrow, Otule and Roseboro to be a better group of players over 6'8 than the 3 that Crean signed in 2004(Amo, Barro, Kinsella)?
My point earlier was that - to support Crean and Buzz - it's insanely difficult to get sure-thing big guys, let alone projects whose chances of succeeding aren't under 50/50.
Can anyone name me a sure-fire big man that was able to contribute extensively in his freshman and sophomore year that didn't attend one of the top ten traditional programs in the country? I'd be shocked if you could.
Most bigs if they are "studs" and five-stars, head to the big schools. They don't grow on trees either...as we all should have realized by now.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 05, 2009, 11:58:23 PM
To be fair, at least Buzz has signed 3 guys that are over 6'8" and will be eligible to play next year. Even if Mbakwe had stayed, Otule was the only recruit eligible for that stat since Ooze signed. 2 tall guys in 5 years is NOT enough - even if you have to take projects.
I'm not ripping on Buzz at all, although I'm sure people will take it that way. I'm in the camp with MUSF.....bigs are hard to find and the better they are, the more difficult they are to land at a place like MU. Guards and forwards are much easier to find and schools like MU can get those types of kids because they are more plentiful.
I want Buzz to land quality bigs just like I wanted TC, Mike Deane, etc to do the same. We all do. My only point is that some people on this board who constantly bash our inability to get quality bigs as if the attempts weren't made and it was total gross negligence. I disagree. The attempts were always made, let's hope Buzz has more luck then Deane and Crean had in getting them. He's known as a terrific recruiter and that certainly helps us.
The other thing Buzz has going for him is that he doesn't have the "I can't get a big man" baggage tag that Crean had (though funny at IU he isn't having that problem...go figure).
And yes Rocky, he has landed three bigs so far. Hopefully they are better than the bigs that Crean landed but we will have to wait and see on that front.
I will say this, if Crean had landed Clarke with his rep, the Crean haters here would be going ape #$^* because he was only a 2 star when we got him. I want to give the kid a chance, but we all know that is exactly what people would say. Just as if Crean landed a hockey player from Canada, the Crean haters would go ape #$#.
Quote from: bma725 on March 06, 2009, 10:14:29 AM
For those who say Crean can't recruit big men, answer me these questions:
#1. Why is it that within weeks of his going to IU, he was able to land his #1 big man target for 2009....the very same player that refused to commit to Crean while he was at MU, and was slowly eliminating MU from the process(Bobby Capobianco)?
#2. For those who say he only gets short projects, how is that he was able to get one 6'10 player and one 7-footer in his first two IU classes?
Could it be that getting a big man to come to Marquette is a he** of a lot harder than you think, and maybe just maybe the guys he got are the only ones that actually wanted to come here?
Ding ding ding....we have a winner. But remember, MU recruits itself, you just have to plug in a coach and it happens...anyone will do.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 06, 2009, 10:51:03 AM
Honestly, I know Crean recruited bigs. But he only landed 2 in the past 7 years.
I don't completely disagree with you, and while they may not all be centers, Buzz has already signed 3 guys over 6'8" in about 10 months. So, is Buzz just that much better at recruiting?
You bring up a good point, but we don't know if Buzz's bigs are going to be any good.
I know the old adage "you can't teach height", but really is a 6'10" role player much different from a 6'8" role player? If they both avg. 4 points and 3 rebounds, what's the difference?
I know people love height, but I'm not sure that 6'10" projects are a huge upgrade from 6'8" projects.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 06, 2009, 10:51:03 AM
Honestly, I know Crean recruited bigs. But he only landed 2 in the past 7 years.
I don't completely disagree with you, and while they may not all be centers, Buzz has already signed 3 guys over 6'8" in about 10 months. So, is Buzz just that much better at recruiting?
I guess again it depends on what a "big" is. Is it someone that plays the 5 only? Or someone that plays the 4 or 5? I'd say he landed more than 2.
Trevor Mbakwe
Dwight Burke
Patrick Hazel
Damian Saunders (wasn't admitted to school)
Otule
Erik Williams verballed to Crean....he plays the 2 through 4 spots at 6'7"
Blackledge
Amo
Barro
Kinsella
Etc, etc....certainly more than 2 in the last 7 years.
Is there a lot of quality there? Nope...just Williams, Saunders and Mbakwe. But to say only 2 I think it disingenious.
Quote from: Nukem2 on March 06, 2009, 09:55:21 AM
Riley's mind was made up when he visited Syracuse per Zag's blog today. Only visited MU to please his mother. Much ado about nothing.
Which would explain the schedule a visit/visit cancelled/reschedule a visit merry-go-round of the last six weeks.
Quote from: username on March 06, 2009, 11:21:05 AM
Which would explain the schedule a visit/visit cancelled/reschedule a visit merry-go-round of the last six weeks.
Not really. His mind was made up after his visit on 2/14, most of the merry go round stuff came before that and a lot of it had to do with MU rescheduling.
From what we have seen from O'Tule this year, does anyone expect his career to be any better than Chris Grimm's? I don't know if he'll even be able to bang like Grimm. I also hope McMorrow can avoid the injury bug and not have injury after injury like Kinsella. I really hope O'Tule, McMorrow and Roseboro turn out to be good players, or are at least serviceable.
Not having a quality big man has not killed MU this year. What has killed MU is being outsized at multiple positions on the floor when those opposing players are also exceptional basketball players. It's always better to have a quality big man than to not have one, but it is only one of five positions on the floor and good teams can compensate for not having one. It looks like Buzz's future teams will at the most be outsized only at one or two positions (1 and 5) instead of all five. A team can be very successful with that formula because an short athletic PG can hold his own and a team can create a defensive scheme to reduce the impact of a single big guy.
If Otule morphs into Grimm and Liam morphs into a taller Ooze with hands, we will be OK. Living in Michigan, there is no buzz at all about Riley. Also, I never felt like we were going to get him. Seriously, when is the last time we got one after an agonizing wait? Shumpert? Taylor? (not ultimately)? Swopshire? If the last 10 months is an indicator of future performance, we either get them fairly quick, or Buzz moves on. He seems to have very little patience for the dramatic 'will-he-or-won't-he?' crap. So every time I hear that there is a recruit choosing among X schools and MU is in the mix, I assume we are not going to get him.
"Could it be that getting a big man to come to Marquette is a he** of a lot harder than you think, and maybe just maybe the guys he got are the only ones that actually wanted to come here?"
Tall people hate Marquette.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2009, 11:19:19 AM
I guess again it depends on what a "big" is. Is it someone that plays the 5 only? Or someone that plays the 4 or 5? I'd say he landed more than 2.
Trevor Mbakwe
Dwight Burke
Patrick Hazel
Damian Saunders (wasn't admitted to school)
Otule
Erik Williams verballed to Crean....he plays the 2 through 4 spots at 6'7"
Blackledge
Amo
Barro
Kinsella
Etc, etc....certainly more than 2 in the last 7 years.
Is there a lot of quality there? Nope...just Williams, Saunders and Mbakwe. But to say only 2 I think it disingenious.
Bigs are not defined by height but by position. Saunders, Erik Williams and Blackledge are not bigs. They are all best suited for the 3 position. Amo was a 4 and a big but wanted to be a 2. Look at Blair, the kid is 6'7" but plays around rim and is a beast. Mbakwe leaving was the one that hurt. Here was a 6'7" kid with incredible hops and really long arms that would have been a force down low for us if his head was screwed on straight.
TC always tried to recruit good bigs to come to MU but lets be honest, none of the good ones wanted to come here so TC had a choice. Take the project and hope they develop or take one with greater upside and talent but had some big time warts, i.e. headcases. Unfortunately, the projects never developed and the headcases were really screwed up in the head.
Its hard to get good bigs to come to MU and lets not fall all over Buzz and his recruiting either. He is doing the exact same thing as TC did. He has a project in Otule, McMorrow and Roseboro and has a talented big player in Maymon who was some big time warts that most are overlooking for whatever reasons. Buzz could just as easily whiff on all 4 and if he does, we could be in a world of hurt because if there is one thing that TC was able to do, it was recruit some real good guards and he had another great coming in Ty Taylor. We don't yet know how good Cadugan and Buycks will really be until they play but at least it does look promising.
That's kind of my point, what are people defining as bigs. You defined it as a position, a 4 or 5. I see a lot of people here constantly harping about how tall people are. So the definitions are different for some folks.
I agree that Williams is better suited at the 2 or 3, but he may play some 4 as well. Kinsella, who was certainly tall (that meets some people's requirements on this board), wasn't a banger at all. Etc, etc.
I think half the problem here is people have different definitions of what a big is. Hell, Charles Barkley was a small guy but I'd say he was a big because of how he played (your Blair example is perfect).
And yes, Crean was very very good at getting guards and a few key forwards as well. That's the choice he had to make because the crop of quality bigs is small. At IU, he's not having those same problems getting bigs and there's a reason. It's IU. If Buzz can get bigs to MU, he will rule the day. In the meantime, I suspect he will try to get long athletes that are versatile.
Quote from: bma725 on March 06, 2009, 10:14:29 AM
For those who say Crean can't recruit big men, answer me these questions:
#1. Why is it that within weeks of his going to IU, he was able to land his #1 big man target for 2009....the very same player that refused to commit to Crean while he was at MU, and was slowly eliminating MU from the process(Bobby Capobianco)?
#2. For those who say he only gets short projects, how is that he was able to get one 6'10 player and one 7-footer in his first two IU classes?
Could it be that getting a big man to come to Marquette is a he** of a lot harder than you think, and maybe just maybe the guys he got are the only ones that actually wanted to come here?
Well MU recruited MacIlvaine, Key, Faisal & Lovette. Plus Amal, though he wasn't highly regarded.
How in the world could Deane & KO do what TC, the inventor of MU Hoops, could not?
Oh and lets not forget that for all the complaining about the lack of bigs TC did not get, that he did get Robert Jackson and Merrit to come here and play. And I really don't want to hear more excuses about how Robert Jackson fell into his lap. He still attended MU for a year. Oh and Marcus Jackson would be another solid big be brought here. Unfortunately he was injuried his first year.
Abraham was an undersized big similar to Marcus Jackson. Mac was a local big. He might very well be the last big from this area that was talented enough and smart enough to be admitted to MU besides Jackson. Lovette was a project and I will give you Key who by the way was also local.
So who was the last good big MU had pre Crean that wasn't from southeastern Wisconsin??????????????
Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on March 06, 2009, 01:32:16 PM
Well MU recruited MacIlvaine, Key, Faisal & Lovette. Plus Amal, though he wasn't highly regarded.
How in the world could Deane & KO do what TC, the inventor of MU Hoops, could not?
You're praising KO for Faisal Abraham? You've got to be kidding me. He was a good defensive player sure, but offensively he was no better than Ousmane, and that's saying something given that Ooze didn't even get to play HS ball. He was also not highly ranked coming out of high school or out of prep school. Further, he was about the same size as Burke or Hazel - 6'7-ish, 225. Interesting though that you praise KO for recruiting him, but Crean gets ripped for recruiting similar sized bigs that are just as limited in terms of skills.
Anyway, KO and Deane had an advantage to get 3 of the players you mentioned, they were Wisconsin kids and UW sucked back then. Makes it a heck of a lot easier to recruit the state. Mac didn't seriously consider them because he didn't want to play for Steve Yoder. Key was not interested in UW at all because of the staff. Lovette didn't even get an offer from UW. Those kind of things would not have happened under Bennett or Ryan.
Further, Lovette was not highly ranked at all. He had interest from other well known schools, but MU was the only one to extend an offer, and his final two were MU and UWGB. As a freshman, he did nothing on the court, but Deane was able to develop him into something. He deserves credit for that, but giving him credit for recruiting him when no other high major even offered him is ridiculous.
it's hard to land top big men, so you have to gamble on some prospects. Crean didn't have a very good track record for it (not a 0% success rate either). Hopefully Buzz gets lucky with the new batch.
I think the team buzz is building and the new offence will make big men look good. has to be better than them hanging out while MU runs the weave.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WHAT ABOUT ABEL JOSEPH?!
It'll be a little bit before MU can shake the rep it's gotten as basically a guard only system on offense. If Buzz has his way and gets the tall, athletic team he wants, that perception will change. I'd love to have a squad built like Memphis and UL.
Was Lovette the guy that battled alocohol and depression issues late in his MU career?
Edit:
Thanks BMA. Didn't know the details, just knew there were problems.
Quote from: MU_B2002 on March 06, 2009, 02:32:47 PM
Was Lovette the guy that battled alocohol and depression issues late in his MU career?
Yes, though he was into much harder stuff than alcohol.
Quote from: TJ on March 06, 2009, 09:29:18 AM
How exactly would that argument go?
I think the original post was about how snowy Syracuse is or something to that effect. I merely was suggesting that milwaukee isn't exactly a tropical paradise, either. But now that I mention it, i knew i forgot someone-- USF!!! >_< Doh!
I just look forward to people posting about random games that Riley goes for 18 and 15 and peeps exclaiming "man, wish we had him on our team this year!"
It's gonna be awesome.
Rod Grosse for THRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: reinko on March 06, 2009, 02:57:18 PM
I just look forward to people posting about random games that Riley goes for 18 and 15 and peeps exclaiming "man, wish we had him on our team this year!"
It's gonna be awesome.
Dont worry...that NEVER happens
Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on March 06, 2009, 01:32:16 PM
Well MU recruited MacIlvaine, Key, Faisal & Lovette. Plus Amal, though he wasn't highly regarded.
How in the world could Deane & KO do what TC, the inventor of MU Hoops, could not?
Wisconsin-Madison was on a 54 year stint of not going to the NCAAs during that time period, too. Those days are long gone. We used to go into New York and get the top player there every year as well, those days are also gone.
And on your list, Deane got one of those players....Lovette.....who was offered by basically nobody. If Crean had signed Lovette with his 2 star rating, people here would have gone bat-#$^#
Quote from: bma725 on March 06, 2009, 10:14:29 AM
For those who say Crean can't recruit big men, answer me these questions:
#1. Why is it that within weeks of his going to IU, he was able to land his #1 big man target for 2009....the very same player that refused to commit to Crean while he was at MU, and was slowly eliminating MU from the process(Bobby Capobianco)?
#2. For those who say he only gets short projects, how is that he was able to get one 6'10 player and one 7-footer in his first two IU classes?
Could it be that getting a big man to come to Marquette is a he** of a lot harder than you think, and maybe just maybe the guys he got are the only ones that actually wanted to come here?
I think he had an easy time getting them to play for IU because he could offer playing time. At MU they were going to have to ride the pine until our current bigs left for the league.
That being said. I hate TC, and I refuse to write anything in his defense without stating my hate for him.
I don't recall people on these boards going "bat #@%!^" when TC signed Hazel or Burke, so why would they be critical of signing a "2 star" big such as Lovette. I think it's fair to say MU"s fan base was less than overwhelmed at the signings of Grimm, Kinsella, Lott, Burke and Hazel but we held out hope they'd develop until they proved otherwise. Why wouldn't we have done the same for Lovette?
It seams quite obvious that Mo Lucas needs to become more active in our recruiting bigs dilemma. Clone himself and deliver for cash and prizes. ;)
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 06, 2009, 04:30:00 PM
I don't recall people on these boards going "bat #@%!^" when TC signed Hazel or Burke, so why would they be critical of signing a "2 star" big such as Lovette. I think it's fair to say MU"s fan base was less than overwhelmed at the signings of Grimm, Kinsella, Lott, Burke and Hazel but we held out hope they'd develop until they proved otherwise. Why wouldn't we have done the same for Lovette?
There were a lot of people that were critical of the Hazel and Burke signings. I guess it all depends on your definition of "bat #@%!^."
Let's be clear about this, I am not trying to be critical about the signings of McMorrow, Roseboro, and Otule or about Buzz's ability to recruit. I am simply pointing out that recruiting big men is difficult at MU today for whatever reason. Crean chose to recruit smaller more talented players after the top tier bigs fell through. Buzz, thus far, has chosen to take bigger projects. Time will tell which philosophy is better.
I also want to point out, that at this point, there is absolutely no reason to believe that Otule, McMorrow, and Roseboro will turn out any better than Grimm, Kinsella, and Ammo. Anyone that claims otherwise right now has an anti Crean agenda or is simply a pie in the sky optimist. I pray that one of them develops into a solid Big East big man but I'm not holding my breath.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 06, 2009, 04:30:00 PM
I don't recall people on these boards going "bat #@%!^" when TC signed Hazel or Burke, so why would they be critical of signing a "2 star" big such as Lovette. I think it's fair to say MU"s fan base was less than overwhelmed at the signings of Grimm, Kinsella, Lott, Burke and Hazel but we held out hope they'd develop until they proved otherwise. Why wouldn't we have done the same for Lovette?
You're not looking hard enough. Like the definition of "bigs", I guess the definition of bat#$^ is different, too. Fair enough on your point.
I think the point is that if Crean had signed a couple of 2 star bigs this year, people would be frustrated, etc. Yet when another coach signs 2 star bigs it's ok. I don't see the difference, they're still 2 star bigs.
By the way, since Faisal got brought up I figured I'd tell this story. In St. Louis for the CUSA tournament a number of years ago (MU won the title), I had a great visit with Faisal and his dad. All about him being from the Virgin Islands, etc. So we got around to why did he come to Marquette in the bitter cold. Was it Mike Deane? Was it the reputation of the university and the basketball program? Etc, etc?
The answer....."I just loved the practice shorts they wore. That was it, that was the main reason".
I kid you not.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2009, 08:39:47 PM
You're not looking hard enough. Like the definition of "bigs", I guess the definition of bat#$^ is different, too.
I think the point is that if Crean had signed a couple of 2 star bigs this year, people would be frustrated, etc. Yet when another coach signs 2 star bigs it's ok. I don't see the difference, they're still 2 star bigs.
By the way, since Faisal got brought up I figured I'd tell this story. In St. Louis for the CUSA tournament a number of years ago (MU won the title), I had a great visit with Faisal and his dad. All about him being from the Virgin Islands, etc. So we got around to why did he come to Marquette in the bitter cold. Was it Mike Deane? Was it the reputation of the university and the basketball program? Etc, etc?
The answer....."I just loved the practice shorts they wore. That was it, that was the main reason".
I kid you not.
I spent some time around Faisal when I was in school and this story doesn't surprise me at all.
a) We would not have freaked out if Lovette was signed by TC. b) TC never would have signed him b/c TC was obsessed with wingspan & deflections. That's where his problem with bigs lied. He would rather have a Ooze or Trend than a 6'7" banger who may have been undersized but knew what he was doing. TC became seduced with athleticism. And it wasn't always that way. Look at the first team he built, it was incredibly balanced but soon he became sort of a mad scientist who loved the 3-4 guard offense with all athletes.
I think he felt he was making a setting a tone, a trend. Something changed in TC's recruiting from how he built the 2003 team to how he built this 2009 team.
As far as rankings go, Rivals gave O'Tule 2-stars and Roseboro and McMorrow weren't given any stars. Anybody know their rankings in other recruiting services?
Re that comment about Copabianco. I've seen him play in person 3 times. He is going to get eaten alive in the paint in the Big Ten, if that's where TC puts him. The guy is not an inside player, at least not yet - loves to roam the perimeter. Does not even dominate HS (especially against shorter athletic players). He will be setting alot of picks for IU's guards at the 3 pt line. Has a nice form and shot for a big guy - nowhere near automatic though. High arc, short most of the time. For comparison, LH at the 4 spot is a much better shooter. Maybe a VERY, VERY, VERY poor man's Chris Crawford. Slower, less athletic, and not as a good a shot. Highly doubt his game would have translated to the Big East - highly doubt he would have ever started at MU, unless our incoming players are highly overrated. IMO, we aren't going to miss anything by him not signing.
Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on March 06, 2009, 08:55:09 PM
a) We would not have freaked out if Lovette was signed by TC. b) TC never would have signed him b/c TC was obsessed with wingspan & deflections. That's where his problem with bigs lied. He would rather have a Ooze or Trend than a 6'7" banger who may have been undersized but knew what he was doing. TC became seduced with athleticism. And it wasn't always that way. Look at the first team he built, it was incredibly balanced but soon he became sort of a mad scientist who loved the 3-4 guard offense with all athletes.
I think he felt he was making a setting a tone, a trend. Something changed in TC's recruiting from how he built the 2003 team to how he built this 2009 team.
First of all, let's be completely honest. Lovette would have gotten his ass kicked in the Big East. I think some of you are wearing the rose colored glasses when you take a look back and Jared.
Second, you're right about athleticism. Crean valued athleticism over size but he would have taken size and athleticism in a heart beat.
Finally, stop with the hypotheticals. Who is this 6'7 banger you speak of? That is the problem with the, "Crean couldn't/wouldn't recruit big men," crowd around here. You make it sound like the players were there for the taking but Crean intentionally passed them up for raw athletes. Who could we have gotten instead of Lott, Trend, Burke, or Hazel. What "6'7 banger that knew what he was doing," was waiting by the phone for an MU offer?
Andy Polka (Oshkosh West)...who's toiling away at Loyola Chicago. With DJ & Co., he would have been a player.
Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on March 07, 2009, 03:15:58 AM
Andy Polka (Oshkosh West)...who's toiling away at Loyola Chicago. With DJ & Co., he would have been a player.
Why is he toiling away at a place like Loyola-Chicago? Let's not forget he's 6'-6". If we assume this 1 star recruit would have done well with DJ despite his mid-major talent, shouldn't we assume that 2 and 3 star bigs that TC recruited that were actually offered by high majors would have done better then they have? Hazel, Burke, etc?
http://rivalshoops.rivals.com/viewprospect.asp?pr_key=42002&sport=2
His offers were from
UW-Milwaukee
Eastern Illinois
Loyola Chicago
Western Illinois
Illinois State
Lehigh
Marquette and Butler took a look at him and both passed.
Again, if TC had signed this kid with those other schools as the "competition", the howling / screaming here would have been deafening. This is the Big East, not the Horizon which is clearly where his offers were coming from.
I absolutely agree that MU faces an uphill fight trying to recruit quality bigs. They are a rare commodity and usually end up at the "elite" programs. We are left to decide between "basketball players" (ie. Lovette types) and "athletes" who may or may not turn into basketball players (McMorrow types). Either way we are taking a chance and will have more misses than hits. But when you recruit bigs without size, athleticism or basketball skills (Hazel, Burke types) you have virtually no chance.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 07, 2009, 10:30:54 AM
I absolutely agree that MU faces an uphill fight trying to recruit quality bigs. They are a rare commodity and usually end up at the "elite" programs. We are left to decide between "basketball players" (ie. Lovette types) and "athletes" who may or may not turn into basketball players (McMorrow types). Either way we are taking a chance and will have more misses than hits. But when you recruit bigs without size, athleticism or basketball skills (Hazel, Burke types) you have virtually no chance.
Of course the irony is that Hazel is considered a very athletic big man according to the recruiting gurus. He was portrayed as a man that ran like a gazelle, could block shots and rebound, but had almost no offensive skills.
Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on March 06, 2009, 08:55:09 PM
a) We would not have freaked out if Lovette was signed by TC. b) TC never would have signed him b/c TC was obsessed with wingspan & deflections. That's where his problem with bigs lied. He would rather have a Ooze or Trend than a 6'7" banger who may have been undersized but knew what he was doing. TC became seduced with athleticism. And it wasn't always that way. Look at the first team he built, it was incredibly balanced but soon he became sort of a mad scientist who loved the 3-4 guard offense with all athletes.
I think he felt he was making a setting a tone, a trend. Something changed in TC's recruiting from how he built the 2003 team to how he built this 2009 team.
You really have not paid attention to recruiting at all have you. Crean recruited more unathletic bigs than he did the athletes like Trend and Ooze. He just wasn't able to land them.
Crean went hard after Chas McFarland, Bryce Webster, Brian Butch, Cole Aldrich, Keaton Nankivil, Frank Ben-Eze, and Kyle Rowley. None of them would described as athletic, in fact some of them like Webster it's shocking how unathletic they are. He wanted all of them, some of them he wanted desperately. But he didn't get them.
The fact that he was only able to land athletic guys with limited skills doesn't mean he wasn't trying to get the other ones even harder. You're making too big of an assumption here.
Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on March 07, 2009, 03:15:58 AM
Andy Polka (Oshkosh West)...who's toiling away at Loyola Chicago. With DJ & Co., he would have been a player.
That is your answer?!
A 6'6 Horizon league player?
Really?
What on earth makes you think that this kid would be any better than Burke or Hazel? I would also love to hear someone explain why this 6'6 toiling star would have quieted the Crean critics, whose main argument seems to focus on the number of players over 6'10 each year.
You guys are starting to prove the point that I have been making all along. There aren't alot of elite big men out there. The ones that are tend to pick schools like KU, UNC, UCONN, and GTown, not MU. Finally, these solid post prospects that Crean passed up out of stupidity or negligence, simply don't exist. They are straw men that the anti Crean crowd creates to attack TC.
bma, you're right he did recruit un athletic types, but when he had to fill a scholarship (b/c he refused to bank) he always went athletic freak. I would rather a pillbury dough boy who has good hands and foot work.
That's why I would have taken a flyer on Polka. I'm a sucker for good hands and footwork.
Do you think that Pilsbury doughboy would have survived the Big East?
No idea, but considering Trend barely made one contribution in his two years, I would have rolled the dice.
Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on March 07, 2009, 01:41:01 PM
bma, you're right he did recruit un athletic types, but when he had to fill a scholarship (b/c he refused to bank) he always went athletic freak. I would rather a pillbury dough boy who has good hands and foot work.
That's why I would have taken a flyer on Polka. I'm a sucker for good hands and footwork.
Again, he went after the unathletic guys even when he had to fill the scholarships, he just didn't get them. Do you not recall the litany of big men he tried to get before signing Blackledge? It's not as if he had a spot open and just decided to give it to him without trying to get anyone else.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2009, 10:34:30 AM
Of course the irony is that Hazel is considered a very athletic big man according to the recruiting gurus. He was portrayed as a man that ran like a gazelle, could block shots and rebound, but had almost no offensive skills.
Hazel chose MU over Hofstra, Rhode Island and another A10 school that I can't recall (not Xavier or Dayton). Hofstra was said to be his leader and may have been the only "offer" among his leaders. He was rated in the 55-60 range among 5th year prep school players which probably translates to 300-400 in the 2006-07 class. He was considered a mid major player until MU offered. He does have some athletic ability but not enough to overcome the fact that he is BOTH undersized and unskilled.