Riley to Syracuse

[ChicosBailBonds]

Well MU recruited MacIlvaine, Key, Faisal & Lovette.  Plus Amal, though he wasn't highly regarded.

How in the world could Deane & KO do what TC, the inventor of MU Hoops, could not?

Wisconsin-Madison was on a 54 year stint of not going to the NCAAs during that time period, too.  Those days are long gone.  We used to go into New York and get the top player there every year as well, those days are also gone.

And on your list, Deane got one of those players....Lovette.....who was offered by basically nobody.  If Crean had signed Lovette with his 2 star rating, people here would have gone bat-#$^#

[avid1010]

For those who say Crean can't recruit big men, answer me these questions:

#1. Why is it that within weeks of his going to IU, he was able to land his #1 big man target for 2009....the very same player that refused to commit to Crean while he was at MU, and was slowly eliminating MU from the process(Bobby Capobianco)?

#2. For those who say he only gets short projects, how is that he was able to get one 6'10 player and one 7-footer in his first two IU classes?

Could it be that getting a big man to come to Marquette is a he** of a lot harder than you think, and maybe just maybe the guys he got are the only ones that actually wanted to come here?

I think he had an easy time getting them to play for IU because he could offer playing time.  At MU they were going to have to ride the pine until our current bigs left for the league.

That being said.  I hate TC, and I refuse to write anything in his defense without stating my hate for him. 

[Lennys Tap]

I don't recall people on these boards going "bat #@%!^" when TC signed Hazel or Burke, so why would they be critical of signing a "2 star" big such as Lovette. I think it's fair to say MU"s fan base was less than overwhelmed at the signings of Grimm, Kinsella, Lott, Burke and Hazel but we held out hope they'd develop until they proved otherwise. Why wouldn't we have done the same for Lovette?

[MUrugger]

It seams quite obvious that Mo Lucas needs to become more active in our recruiting bigs dilemma.  Clone himself and deliver for cash and prizes.

[MUSF]

I don't recall people on these boards going "bat #@%!^" when TC signed Hazel or Burke, so why would they be critical of signing a "2 star" big such as Lovette. I think it's fair to say MU"s fan base was less than overwhelmed at the signings of Grimm, Kinsella, Lott, Burke and Hazel but we held out hope they'd develop until they proved otherwise. Why wouldn't we have done the same for Lovette?

There were a lot of people that were critical of the Hazel and Burke signings. I guess it all depends on your definition of "bat #@%!^."

Let's be clear about this, I am not trying to be critical about the signings of McMorrow, Roseboro, and Otule or about Buzz's ability to recruit. I am simply pointing out that recruiting big men is difficult at MU today for whatever reason.  Crean chose to recruit smaller more talented players after the top tier bigs fell through.  Buzz, thus far, has chosen to take bigger projects.  Time will tell which philosophy is better.

I also want to point out, that at this point, there is absolutely no reason to believe that Otule, McMorrow, and Roseboro will turn out any better than Grimm, Kinsella, and Ammo. Anyone that claims otherwise right now has an anti Crean agenda or is simply a pie in the sky optimist. I pray that one of them develops into a solid Big East big man but I'm not holding my breath.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't recall people on these boards going "bat #@%!^" when TC signed Hazel or Burke, so why would they be critical of signing a "2 star" big such as Lovette. I think it's fair to say MU"s fan base was less than overwhelmed at the signings of Grimm, Kinsella, Lott, Burke and Hazel but we held out hope they'd develop until they proved otherwise. Why wouldn't we have done the same for Lovette?

You're not looking hard enough.  Like the definition of "bigs", I guess the definition of bat#$^ is different, too.  Fair enough on your point.

I think the point is that if Crean had signed a couple of 2 star bigs this year, people would be frustrated, etc.  Yet when another coach signs 2 star bigs it's ok.  I don't see the difference, they're still 2 star bigs.



By the way, since Faisal got brought up I figured I'd tell this story.  In St. Louis for the CUSA tournament a number of years ago (MU won the title), I had a great visit with Faisal and his dad.  All about him being from the Virgin Islands, etc.  So we got around to why did he come to Marquette in the bitter cold.  Was it Mike Deane?  Was it the reputation of the university and the basketball program?   Etc, etc?

The answer....."I just loved the practice shorts they wore.  That was it, that was the main reason".

I kid you not. 

[MUSF]

You're not looking hard enough.  Like the definition of "bigs", I guess the definition of bat#$^ is different, too. 

I think the point is that if Crean had signed a couple of 2 star bigs this year, people would be frustrated, etc.  Yet when another coach signs 2 star bigs it's ok.  I don't see the difference, they're still 2 star bigs.



By the way, since Faisal got brought up I figured I'd tell this story.  In St. Louis for the CUSA tournament a number of years ago (MU won the title), I had a great visit with Faisal and his dad.  All about him being from the Virgin Islands, etc.  So we got around to why did he come to Marquette in the bitter cold.  Was it Mike Deane?  Was it the reputation of the university and the basketball program?   Etc, etc?

The answer....."I just loved the practice shorts they wore.  That was it, that was the main reason".

I kid you not. 

I spent some time around Faisal when I was in school and this story doesn't surprise me at all.

[The Lens]

a) We would not have freaked out if Lovette was signed by TC.  b) TC never would have signed him b/c TC was obsessed with wingspan & deflections.  That's where his problem with bigs lied.  He would rather have a Ooze or Trend than a 6'7" banger who may have been undersized but knew what he was doing.  TC became seduced with athleticism.  And it wasn't always that way.  Look at the first team he built, it was incredibly balanced but soon he became sort of a mad scientist who loved the 3-4 guard offense with all athletes. 

I think he felt he was making a setting a tone, a trend.  Something changed in TC's recruiting from how he built the 2003 team to how he built this 2009 team.

[Norm]

As far as rankings go, Rivals gave O'Tule 2-stars and Roseboro and McMorrow weren't given any stars. Anybody know their rankings in other recruiting services?

[PE8983]

Re that comment about Copabianco.  I've seen him play in person 3 times.  He is going to get eaten alive in the paint in the Big Ten, if that's where TC puts him.  The guy is not an inside player, at least not yet - loves to roam the perimeter.  Does not even dominate HS (especially against shorter athletic players).  He will be setting alot of picks for IU's guards at the 3 pt line.  Has a nice form and shot for a big guy - nowhere near automatic though.  High arc, short most of the time.  For comparison, LH at the 4 spot is a much better shooter.  Maybe a VERY, VERY, VERY poor man's Chris Crawford.  Slower, less athletic, and not as a good a shot.  Highly doubt his game would have translated to the Big East - highly doubt he would have ever started at MU, unless our incoming players are highly overrated.  IMO, we aren't going to miss anything by him not signing.

[MUSF]

a) We would not have freaked out if Lovette was signed by TC.  b) TC never would have signed him b/c TC was obsessed with wingspan & deflections.  That's where his problem with bigs lied.  He would rather have a Ooze or Trend than a 6'7" banger who may have been undersized but knew what he was doing.  TC became seduced with athleticism.  And it wasn't always that way.  Look at the first team he built, it was incredibly balanced but soon he became sort of a mad scientist who loved the 3-4 guard offense with all athletes. 

I think he felt he was making a setting a tone, a trend.  Something changed in TC's recruiting from how he built the 2003 team to how he built this 2009 team.

First of all, let's be completely honest. Lovette would have gotten his ass kicked in the Big East.  I think some of you are wearing the rose colored glasses when you take a look back and Jared.

Second, you're right about athleticism.  Crean valued athleticism over size but he would have taken size and athleticism in a heart beat.

Finally, stop with the hypotheticals.  Who is this 6'7 banger you speak of?  That is the problem with the, "Crean couldn't/wouldn't recruit big men," crowd around here.  You make it sound like the players were there for the taking but Crean intentionally passed them up for raw athletes.  Who could we have gotten instead of Lott, Trend, Burke, or Hazel.  What "6'7 banger that knew what he was doing," was waiting by the phone for an MU offer?  

[The Lens]

Andy Polka (Oshkosh West)...who's toiling away at Loyola Chicago.  With DJ & Co., he would have been a player.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Andy Polka (Oshkosh West)...who's toiling away at Loyola Chicago.  With DJ & Co., he would have been a player.

Why is he toiling away at a place like Loyola-Chicago?   Let's not forget he's 6'-6".  If we assume this 1 star recruit would have done well with DJ despite his mid-major talent, shouldn't we assume that 2 and 3 star bigs that TC recruited that were actually offered by high majors would have done better then they have?  Hazel, Burke, etc?

http://rivalshoops.rivals.com/viewprospect.asp?pr_key=42002&sport=2


His offers were from

UW-Milwaukee
Eastern Illinois
Loyola Chicago
Western Illinois
Illinois State
Lehigh

Marquette and Butler took a look at him and both passed. 

Again, if TC had signed this kid with those other schools as the "competition", the howling / screaming here would have been deafening.  This is the Big East, not the Horizon which is clearly where his offers were coming from.

[Lennys Tap]

I absolutely agree that MU faces an uphill fight trying to recruit quality bigs. They are a rare commodity and usually end up at the "elite" programs. We are left to decide between "basketball players" (ie. Lovette types) and "athletes" who may or may not turn into basketball players (McMorrow types). Either way we are taking a chance and will have more misses than hits. But when you recruit bigs without size, athleticism or basketball skills (Hazel, Burke types) you have virtually no chance.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I absolutely agree that MU faces an uphill fight trying to recruit quality bigs. They are a rare commodity and usually end up at the "elite" programs. We are left to decide between "basketball players" (ie. Lovette types) and "athletes" who may or may not turn into basketball players (McMorrow types). Either way we are taking a chance and will have more misses than hits. But when you recruit bigs without size, athleticism or basketball skills (Hazel, Burke types) you have virtually no chance.

Of course the irony is that Hazel is considered a very athletic big man according to the recruiting gurus.  He was portrayed as a man that ran like a gazelle, could block shots and rebound, but had almost no offensive skills.

[bma725]

a) We would not have freaked out if Lovette was signed by TC.  b) TC never would have signed him b/c TC was obsessed with wingspan & deflections.  That's where his problem with bigs lied.  He would rather have a Ooze or Trend than a 6'7" banger who may have been undersized but knew what he was doing.  TC became seduced with athleticism.  And it wasn't always that way.  Look at the first team he built, it was incredibly balanced but soon he became sort of a mad scientist who loved the 3-4 guard offense with all athletes. 

I think he felt he was making a setting a tone, a trend.  Something changed in TC's recruiting from how he built the 2003 team to how he built this 2009 team.

You really have not paid attention to recruiting at all have you.  Crean recruited more unathletic bigs than he did the athletes like Trend and Ooze.  He just wasn't able to land them.

Crean went hard after Chas McFarland, Bryce Webster, Brian Butch,  Cole Aldrich, Keaton Nankivil, Frank Ben-Eze, and Kyle Rowley.  None of them would described as athletic, in fact some of them like Webster it's shocking how unathletic they are.  He wanted all of them, some of them he wanted desperately.  But he didn't get them.

The fact that he was only able to land athletic guys with limited skills doesn't mean he wasn't trying to get the other ones even harder.  You're making too big of an assumption here. 

[MUSF]

Andy Polka (Oshkosh West)...who's toiling away at Loyola Chicago.  With DJ & Co., he would have been a player.

That is your answer?!

A 6'6 Horizon league player?

Really?

What on earth makes you think that this kid would be any better than Burke or Hazel? I would also love to hear someone explain why this 6'6 toiling star would have quieted the Crean critics, whose main argument seems to focus on the number of players over 6'10 each year.

You guys are starting to prove the point that I have been making all along. There aren't alot of elite big men out there.  The ones that are tend to pick schools like KU, UNC, UCONN, and GTown, not MU.  Finally, these solid post prospects that Crean passed up out of stupidity or negligence, simply don't exist.  They are straw men that the anti Crean crowd creates to attack TC.

[The Lens]

bma, you're right he did recruit un athletic types, but when he had to fill a scholarship (b/c he refused to bank) he always went athletic freak.  I would rather a pillbury dough boy who has good hands and foot work.

That's why I would have taken a flyer on Polka.  I'm a sucker for good hands and footwork.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Do you think that Pilsbury doughboy would have survived the Big East?

[The Lens]

No idea, but considering Trend barely made one contribution in his two years, I would have rolled the dice.

[bma725]

bma, you're right he did recruit un athletic types, but when he had to fill a scholarship (b/c he refused to bank) he always went athletic freak.  I would rather a pillbury dough boy who has good hands and foot work.

That's why I would have taken a flyer on Polka.  I'm a sucker for good hands and footwork.

Again, he went after the unathletic guys even when he had to fill the scholarships, he just didn't get them.  Do you not recall the litany of big men he tried to get before signing Blackledge?  It's not as if he had a spot open and just decided to give it to him without trying to get anyone else.

[Lennys Tap]

Of course the irony is that Hazel is considered a very athletic big man according to the recruiting gurus.  He was portrayed as a man that ran like a gazelle, could block shots and rebound, but had almost no offensive skills.




Hazel chose MU over Hofstra, Rhode Island and another A10 school that I can't recall (not Xavier or Dayton). Hofstra was said to be his leader and may have been the only "offer" among his leaders. He was rated in the 55-60 range among 5th year prep school players which probably translates to 300-400 in the 2006-07 class. He was considered a mid major player until MU offered. He does have some athletic ability but not enough to overcome the fact that he is BOTH undersized and unskilled.