NBA Thread 2020-21

[drewm88]

Why are we bothering with LeBron and MJ and ignoring the real story?
https://twitter.com/tomhaberstroh/status/1395565747376635906

Tom Haberstroh
@tomhaberstroh
The Washington Wizards are the fifth different team that Ish Smith has carried to the playoffs. That's more than Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird and Dirk Nowitzki combined.
9:22 PM · May 20, 2021·Twitter Web App

[Jockey]

Jordan did not play at age 30. He did not play at ages 35, 36, and 37. He also sat out almost all of his age 22 and age 31 seasons. He had only 11 seasons where he started over 70 games in the regular season.

James had 13 seasons over 70 games and none under 45 games. Lebron has played 81 more playoff games than Jordan. After all of the extra games, he is still the most dominant player in the NBA. In other words. Lebron has played over 300 more games SO FAR than Jordan did in his career.

[JWags85]

Jordan did not play at age 30. He did not play at ages 35, 36, and 37. He also sat out almost all of his age 22 and age 31 seasons. He had only 11 seasons where he started over 70 games in the regular season.

James had 13 seasons over 70 games and none under 45 games. Lebron has played 81 more playoff games than Jordan. After all of the extra games, he is still the most dominant player in the NBA. In other words. Lebron has played over 300 more games SO FAR than Jordan did in his career.

The bolded is untrue, no matter what the metric.

Jordan didnt play at 35?  He turned 35 in the middle of the 98 championship season.  And if Jordan played 36-37-38, you dont think he would have put up the same numbers, given what he did at 39?

And nobody is saying Lebron isn't impressive.  But its not unprecendented.  Karl Malone averaged 20 and 8 for multiple All Star seasons at an older age than Lebron and will have more games played unless Lebron plays another 4 full-ish seasons.  Tim Duncan was still a double double machine All Star into his late 30s again with well more games than Lebron.  And thats not even getting into Kareem.

There are myriad reasons to praise Lebron.  And his high production this late in his career is to be commended.  But unlike much of what he's done in his career, its not outlandish, its been carefully scripted and planned for 5+ years now, and is massively aided by a top 5 player taking tons of pressure off him.  Its not a discredit, I just don't see how it gives any extra fuel to have him argued above Jordan.

[MuggsyB]

The bolded is untrue, no matter what the metric.

Jordan didnt play at 35?  He turned 35 in the middle of the 98 championship season.  And if Jordan played 36-37-38, you dont think he would have put up the same numbers, given what he did at 39?

And nobody is saying Lebron isn't impressive.  But its not unprecendented.  Karl Malone averaged 20 and 8 for multiple All Star seasons at an older age than Lebron and will have more games played unless Lebron plays another 4 full-ish seasons.  Tim Duncan was still a double double machine All Star into his late 30s again with well more games than Lebron.  And thats not even getting into Kareem.

There are myriad reasons to praise Lebron.  And his high production this late in his career is to be commended.  But unlike much of what he's done in his career, its not outlandish, its been carefully scripted and planned for 5+ years now, and is massively aided by a top 5 player taking tons of pressure off him.  Its not a discredit, I just don't see how it gives any extra fuel to have him argued above Jordan.

Stats are also completely skewed in this era because of the lack of physicality on the perimeter and no one laying out people at the rim.  You have to wonder how LeBaby would have reacted to actually getting  power elbowed on a drive?  Would  an ambulance always be on call?  Lebron's longevity is admirable, and certainly a component of greatness, but there are many other factors if we are going to talk about the GOAT.  I was young but I do not recall Jordan writhing in fake pain, after barely getting touched, every game, during his illustrious career.  LeBaby is a tremendous player, definitely top 5 ever, but he's even  greater at fake reading and looking like a grenade detonated in his pocket on a regular basis. 

[The Lens]

Stats are also completely skewed in this era because of the lack of physicality on the perimeter and no one laying out people at the rim.  You have to wonder how LeBaby would have reacted to actually getting  power elbowed on a drive?  Would  an ambulance always be on call?  Lebron's longevity is admirable, and certainly a component of greatness, but there are many other factors if we are going to talk about the GOAT.  I was young but I do not recall Jordan writhing in fake pain, after barely getting touched, every game, during his illustrious career.  LeBaby is a tremendous player, definitely top 5 ever, but he's even  greater at fake reading and looking like a grenade detonated in his pocket on a regular basis.

I'm no LeBron stan, but you are a child.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Stats are also completely skewed in this era because of the lack of physicality on the perimeter and no one laying out people at the rim.  You have to wonder how LeBaby would have reacted to actually getting  power elbowed on a drive?  Would  an ambulance always be on call?  Lebron's longevity is admirable, and certainly a component of greatness, but there are many other factors if we are going to talk about the GOAT.  I was young but I do not recall Jordan writhing in fake pain, after barely getting touched, every game, during his illustrious career.  LeBaby is a tremendous player, definitely top 5 ever, but he's even  greater at fake reading and looking like a grenade detonated in his pocket on a regular basis. 

Lebron would have been absolutely dominant in the Jordan era. And I think you’re more hung up on his politics.

[Jockey]

Stats are also completely skewed in this era because of the lack of physicality on the perimeter and no one laying out people at the rim.  You have to wonder how LeBaby would have reacted to actually getting  power elbowed on a drive?   

That's just silly nonsense. LeBron is the big, strong guy. He is the one that would be handing out the punishment if that were allowed.

Sultan saved me the trouble of getting into why you really hate LeBron. When Massa says "shut up and dribble", he better obey.

[MuggsyB]

That's just silly nonsense. LeBron is the big, strong guy. He is the one that would be handing out the punishment if that were allowed.

Sultan saved me the trouble of getting into why you really hate LeBron. When Massa says "shut up and dribble", he better obey.

You may be right but why does he flop constantly and look like he's been shot on a regular basis?  The criticism of him is valid imo despite his greatness as a player.

[jficke13]

You may be right but why does he flop constantly and look like he's been shot on a regular basis?  The criticism of him is valid imo despite his greatness as a player.

Because it works? If he got zero calls, or drew Ts every time he did it, he'd stop. Is this a serious question?

[MuggsyB]

Because it works? If he got zero calls, or drew Ts every time he did it, he'd stop. Is this a serious question?

Does he also fake read because "it works"?  My take is the guy is a disingenuous buffoon and I'm entitled to my opinion.  It's quite frankly embarrassing.  I'm certainly not the only one who finds his antics absurd.  Great player but there's a reason many people dislike him.

[StillAWarrior]

Lebron would have been absolutely dominant in the Jordan era. And I think you’re more hung up on his politics.

Lebron would have been fine in any era. He’s a great athlete and basketball player and would adjust to however the game was played. Same holds for MJ and the other greats. There are some players who are products of their era, but not many of the all-timers.

Lebron does what he does because it works - not because he’s not tough; not because he’s weak; not because he’s an attention whore (although he is). Because it works. It’s the most annoying thing about him, and I wish he didn’t do it. If they started T’ing him up, he’d adjust.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Stats are also completely skewed in this era because of the lack of physicality on the perimeter and no one laying out people at the rim.  You have to wonder how LeBaby would have reacted to actually getting  power elbowed on a drive?  Would  an ambulance always be on call?  Lebron's longevity is admirable, and certainly a component of greatness, but there are many other factors if we are going to talk about the GOAT.  I was young but I do not recall Jordan writhing in fake pain, after barely getting touched, every game, during his illustrious career.  LeBaby is a tremendous player, definitely top 5 ever, but he's even  greater at fake reading and looking like a grenade detonated in his pocket on a regular basis.

Jordan didn’t writhe in fake pain because he didn’t have to. He was the beneficiary of a tremendous number of absolute bullcrap phantom foul calls during his career.

[MuggsyB]

Did you just see that tip-throwdown by JTA??

[4everwarriors]

Ain't nothin' Muggster. Wait 'til he busts out in a sweat, hey?

[MuggsyB]

Jordan didn’t writhe in fake pain because he didn’t have to. He was the beneficiary of a tremendous number of absolute bullcrap phantom foul calls during his career.

I assume Jordan was the beneficiary of calls during his career but that's different than writhing in fake pain nor do I accept Lebron "has to" do this.  What else must he do or else?  Is he required to say asinine things constantly, pretend he can't see, and essentially be an assclown?  Is that part of his contract?  Look, I realize I'm being a bit hyperbolic because that's my style, but there is no way to justify some of his ridiculous antics.  No normal person doesn't get touched and pretends he's at Normandy during WW2.

[MuggsyB]

Ain't nothin' Muggster. Wait 'til he busts out in a sweat, hey?

Touche!  Let's hope he can help Curry out with some buckets.

[MU82]

I think that you make a good point, but I think that position resonates with a certain age group (i.e., those roughly our age or older) but not nearly as much with younger. I can guarantee you that my son -- who follows sports in general and the NBA specifically pretty closely -- would never think of Bird as being in the same conversation as most of the others you mentioned. It's ignorant, I realize, but I think it's pretty common. Even I, who watched Bird play and thoroughly enjoyed the Magic/Bird rivalry, often find myself surprised when I watch old footage of Bird or look at his stats.

Fair enough, though does he know much about anybody other than Michael and Magic of the pre-2000 stars?

There's lots of recency bias in these arguments.

[Jockey]

Does he also fake read because "it works"?  My take is the guy is a disingenuous buffoon and I'm entitled to my opinion.  It's quite frankly embarrassing.  I'm certainly not the only one who finds his antics absurd.  Great player but there's a reason many people dislike him.

How many times are you gonna do the fake-read thing? And if you want to bring up “frankly embarrassing”, a mirror would do the trick.

[MU82]

I disagree on both points, Mike. I think LeBron's longevity with showing signs of a decline equalize the two. But, I don't know who was better.

A good argument could be made for Wilt or Kareem as #1 overall. They were so unstoppable that rules were changed solely as a way to defend them. That never happened with MJ or LeBron.

If total career - HS, college, NBA - are all included, then it is a no-brainer. Kareem is #1 easily. His HS accomplishments are legendary. As a freshman in college, he led the UCLA freshman team (they weren't eligible for varsity play) in a blowout over the UCLA varsity team which was #1 in the country. His pro stats stand on their own with all of the MVPs and Championships.

Jordan played in all 82 games at age 39 with the Wizards, averaged 37 minutes per game. The previous season, he was one of the leading MVP contenders, and deservedly so, until his body broke down.

But yes, you can make a "good argument" for whomever you want. And if you want to include H.S. and college -- or even middle school and biddy ball -- that is your right. This is 'Merica ... or so I've fake read!

Seriously, given the skill sets and the accomplishments, I believe Jordan and James are hands down the two best players ever. They did/do more things great than anybody, and their games would translate to any era of play. They would have been the two best players in the '60s IMHO; Jordan would have been the best today; LeBron would have been one of the two best in the '90s. That's my opinion. Others are entitled to theirs.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

You may be right but why does he flop constantly and look like he's been shot on a regular basis?  The criticism of him is valid imo despite his greatness as a player.

I assume Jordan was the beneficiary of calls during his career but that's different than writhing in fake pain nor do I accept Lebron "has to" do this.  What else must he do or else?  Is he required to say asinine things constantly, pretend he can't see, and essentially be an assclown?  Is that part of his contract?  Look, I realize I'm being a bit hyperbolic because that's my style, but there is no way to justify some of his ridiculous antics.  No normal person doesn't get touched and pretends he's at Normandy during WW2.

I think it’s funny that the youngsters think flopping is a recent phenomenon.

[MuggsyB]

How many times are you gonna do the fake-read thing? And if you want to bring up “frankly embarrassing”, a mirror would do the trick.

Jockey, I'm just reiterating an example of his mendacity.  And this has manifested itself in numerous instances including when he faked a hate crime at his home.   We can agree to disagree about Lebron as a man but there is no question he's among the select best in the history of the sport of basketball.  But frankly I think people need to open their eyes about what I would term his overall douchebaggery.  If you fake read for the purpose of a particular narrative, or make crap up for that matter, it a sign of someone who is a pathological liar. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Jockey, I'm just reiterating an example of his mendacity.  And this has manifested itself in numerous instances including when he faked a hate crime at his home.   We can agree to disagree about Lebron as a man but there is no question he's among the select best in the history of the sport of basketball.  But frankly I think people need to open their eyes about what I would term his overall douchebaggery.  If you fake read for the purpose of a particular narrative, or make crap up for that matter, it a sign of someone who is a pathological liar. 

I mean a lot of professional athletes engage in douchebaggery.

But it’s weird how many are obsessed with Lebron’s. I guess it’s his politics, “The Decision,” or the fact that he threatens the status of Jordan (talk about douchebaggery), but it is just so odd.

You’ve made about a dozen posts in this topic about it...yet no one is disagreeing with your premise about his off court stuff.

[MuggsyB]

I mean a lot of professional athletes engage in douchebaggery.

But it’s weird how many are obsessed with Lebron’s. I guess it’s his politics, “The Decision,” or the fact that he threatens the status of Jordan (talk about douchebaggery), but it is just so odd.

You’ve made about a dozen posts in this topic about it...yet no one is disagreeing with your premise about his off court stuff.

That's fair.  Sometimes I get a little carried away.  My apologies FBM.

[MU82]

Yeah butt, da Bucks are Giannis, Jrue, and a bunch of smoes, hey?

Smoe 1 ... Doc 0, nu?

[4everwarriors]

Lotsa golf yet ta bee played, boychik, aina?