Respect

[mu03eng]

Indeed, I agree.  Rather than discuss the issue, the flag and the military are being used as shields to avoid having any discussion at all.  The protest isn't about the anthem, and most definitely isn't about the military, but if you can somehow conflate those issues it allows you to dismiss out of hand any discussion of the actual injustice.

Agreed to a certain extent, but we also aren't good at isolating discussion points, we conflate everything for #reasons. It is not an unreasonable or unacceptable position to believe the anthem protests are disrespectful but also agree/support the reasons the protest is going on. However in our discussions, equating the protest to disrespectful somehow automatically means a person is against the cause. That creates an environment when the core problem gets masked because we are talking about relatively superficial things in absolute terms.

[🏀]

History will treat Kaep much better than it will his detractors, including the NFL owners.  It always treats those fighting for justice better than those who are opposed.

You mean all of my aunt's anti-Nike Facebook memes aren't going to hold up?

[Jockey]

The message - that we are still a mostly segregated (and hence unfair) society is indeed an important one. The police didn't create the mess - as Mayor Daley famously said in '68 "The police are not here to create disorder, they're here to preserve it!".

You actually used a "police riot" to defend police?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Agreed to a certain extent, but we also aren't good at isolating discussion points, we conflate everything for #reasons. It is not an unreasonable or unacceptable position to believe the anthem protests are disrespectful but also agree/support the reasons the protest is going on. However in our discussions, equating the protest to disrespectful somehow automatically means a person is against the cause. That creates an environment when the core problem gets masked because we are talking about relatively superficial things in absolute terms.

Fair enough, I get your point.  I will say--without a shred of empirical evidence to back my up my assertion--that I suspect the subset of people who find the method of protest disrespectful while supporting the reason for the protest is very, very small.

[Lennys Tap]

You're being willfully ignorant of his explanation for the socks because it doesn't fit your narrative.

Calling cops pigs has a history. It is the ultimate insult, similar to a racial epithet. Wearing clothing depicting all cops has pigs to protest the rare rogue cop is either disingenuous or not very bright. Either condition, IMO, disqualifies Kaep from being an important movement's spokesman. It's not about his explanation "fitting my narrative". It's about it passing the smell test.

[jesmu84]

Agreed to a certain extent, but we also aren't good at isolating discussion points, we conflate everything for #reasons. It is not an unreasonable or unacceptable position to believe the anthem protests are disrespectful but also agree/support the reasons the protest is going on. However in our discussions, equating the protest to disrespectful somehow automatically means a person is against the cause. That creates an environment when the core problem gets masked because we are talking about relatively superficial things in absolute terms.

Of people involved in the discussion, what % would you estimate fall in this category?

[Lennys Tap]

You actually used a "police riot" to defend police?

You missed my point, Brandi - I wasn't defending the police, merely pointing out that the biggerl problem is with the orders that come from higher places.

[GGGG]

I think Kaepernick has done well with bringing awareness to the issue of police involvement in shooting deaths of black people. 

That being said, the issue I have with the advertisement is that the tag line over the picture is a lie.  He was benched before he even started kneeling because, at the time, he was the worst ranked starting QB in the NFL.  Once no one in the NFL would take him (for one reason or another), Nike was paying him the whole time.  He hasn't sacrificed a thing.

Of course he has.  He supposedly wants to play football.

[brewcity77]

They disqualify Kaepernick as a leader of any movement seeking to be inciusive - IMO.

If one past action for which one has explained themselves is disqualifying from any future leadership role, I suspect no one will ever be allowed to assume a leadership role ever.

[GGGG]

Of course there are those (racists) who use Kaepernick's footwear or marcher's chants as cover for their bigotry - those folks are, sadly, a lost cause. But whether you want to concede it or not, there are a whole bunch of normal non bigots turned off by it. People receptive to the message but at odds with the messenger(s).

That's not really my point.  My point is that you are somehow expecting perfection from the messenger, and taking a small thing he did two years ago to disqualify him.  He hasn't done it since, and has done a lot of really good things, but NOPE .... he's now disqualified because of his choice of socks in September 2016.

LOL. All cops on Kaep's socks are pigs. Not some, all. MLK Jr. would NEVER have endorsed them. Bad analogy.

No but MLK most certainly screwed up.  He admitted himself that he was too consumed by anger at times. 

[Lennys Tap]

Fair enough, I get your point.  I will say--without a shred of empirical evidence to back my up my assertion--that I suspect the subset of people who find the method of protest disrespectful while supporting the reason for the protest is very, very small.

I would respectfully disagree. I'm much older than most here (turn 70 this month) and quite a few of my friends/acquaintances (especially those 65 and older) feel that way. Some are no doubt disingenuous and use the "imperfect messenger" as an excuse - not most, though, at least as far as I can tell.

[Lennys Tap]

Agreed to a certain extent, but we also aren't good at isolating discussion points, we conflate everything for #reasons. It is not an unreasonable or unacceptable position to believe the anthem protests are disrespectful but also agree/support the reasons the protest is going on. However in our discussions, equating the protest to disrespectful somehow automatically means a person is against the cause. That creates an environment when the core problem gets masked because we are talking about relatively superficial things in absolute terms.

+1

[jutaw22mu]

Of course he has.  He supposedly wants to play football.

Well then he should work at being a better football player. He is not a very good QB.  All 3 QBs on my team's roster (Browns) are better than Kaep.  Wouldn't have been true last year, I actually wanted them to pick him up, but this year he would have no spot.

[Pakuni]

I would respectfully disagree. I'm much older than most here (turn 70 this month) and quite a few of my friends/acquaintances (especially those 65 and older) feel that way. Some are no doubt disingenuous and use the "imperfect messenger" as an excuse - not most, though, at least as far as I can tell.

First, happy birthday and congrats on hitting the big round number.

Second, I don't buy that (though, like the rest of us, I have no way of knowing for sure).
I just can't imagine there are people out there whose stance on police brutality or institutional racism is dependent on who's talking about it. You either think these are problems that need to be addressed or you don't. Good people certainly can disagree on the best methods to address these problems, but I can't get on board with the notion that anyone's values and ethics when it comes to these issues are determined by another's form of protest or choice of hoisery.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Well then he should work at being a better football player. He is not a very good QB.  All 3 QBs on my team's roster (Browns) are better than Kaep.  Wouldn't have been true last year, I actually wanted them to pick him up, but this year he would have no spot.

While I agree that he wasn't a particularly good QB, I don't think there is the slightest question that some team along the way would have given a Super Bowl QB a chance to be the backup somewhere if it were not for the political baggage.  So yes, he gave up playing football, albeit involuntarily, for his beliefs.

[Lennys Tap]

If one past action for which one has explained themselves is disqualifying from any future leadership role, I suspect no one will ever be allowed to assume a leadership role ever.

Depends on what that "past action" is.

If he used to wear a white hood, I'd say it's disqualifying.

If he used to get angry at racism (MLK's imperfection per Sultan), I'd say it's definitely not disqualifying. I'd even go so far as to saying it was a requirement to leading a movement against it.

If he used to wear cops are pigs clothing and he wants to lead an effective movement to improve police/community relations, I guess it's a matter of opinion. You (and Sultan, Pakuni, TSmith, Brandi and others) disagree with mine.

[4everwarriors]

A company that adopts a polarizing ad campaign, as has Nike, clearly is making too much money.

[NWarsh]

A company that adopts a polarizing ad campaign, as has Nike, clearly is making too much money.

This is how Nike operates, they have been doing this disruptive advertising for as long as they have been around.  Well before they made Billions each year.  Anybody remember the Charles Barkley I am not a role model commercial?  Or how about the fact that they stuck by Kobe and Tiger. 

Or how about this, they made an african american man the face of their shoe brand at a time when nobody did that.  Before Jordan, there may have been only OJ (Hertz) as the face of a national brand.  I am not old enough to know anything before the mid-80's so I may be wrong on that.

[Lennys Tap]

First, happy birthday and congrats on hitting the big round number.

Second, I don't buy that (though, like the rest of us, I have no way of knowing for sure).
I just can't imagine there are people out there whose stance on police brutality or institutional racism is dependent on who's talking about it. You either think these are problems that need to be addressed or you don't. Good people certainly can disagree on the best methods to address these problems, but I can't get on board with the notion that anyone's values and ethics when it comes to these issues are determined by another's form of protest or choice of hoisery.

Thanks, best wishes most appreciated.

Second, I'm sure if I polled my acquaintances on what their stance on police brutality and institutional racism is the result would be a unanimous "I'm against it". Solutions offered would run the gamut from specific measures to shrugs of "I don't really know". But all would view MLK Jr as an effective uniter up to the task of taking on these big issues. Maybe it's a generational thing, but they don't put Kaepernick even remotely in that league.

[Jay Bee]

Does your upbringing skew your views? How so? Happy for CK he has a very supportive family.

As for Nike, I don’t give a crap what they do for advertising. I’m rockin Jordan Lows today on the basis of I feel like wearing them.

[reinko]

Thanks, best wishes most appreciated.

Second, I'm sure if I polled my acquaintances on what their stance on police brutality and institutional racism is the result would be a unanimous "I'm against it". Solutions offered would run the gamut from specific measures to shrugs of "I don't really know". But all would view MLK Jr as an effective uniter up to the task of taking on these big issues. Maybe it's a generational thing, but they don't put Kaepernick even remotely in that league.

Then why did he have an unfavorable rating north of 60% in mid to late 60's?  MLK was disliked by the majority of Americans, the vast vast vast majority of white people, and the US government.  It's easier for those still alive now when MLK was alive (please read I am not accusing you or your friends of anything) to say, MLK was great, he was a great uniter...but history paints a different picture.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Calling cops pigs has a history. It is the ultimate insult, similar to a racial epithet.

Honest question.

I've heard this argument before, that pig is to a cop what the n-word is to a black person or is at least similar to it. I don't buy the argument that it is the same but I can understand one that says it is similar.

Are there any other professions that have a "career epithet" the way that cops do? Any other jobs where if you call someone in that profession a certain name it is considered as bad or almost as bad as the n-word? I personally can't think of any. If no other professions have something like this, why do cops? Why is that if you insult someone else's choice of profession they might tell you to "eff off" but if you call a cop a pig it's considered on another level?

To be clear, I'm not advocating for or minimizing calling cops pigs. I'm just curious how it got to this point. Is there something specific in history? Is it that being a cop is a bigger part of someone's identity than people who do other jobs? Are cops just the only profession that has been targeted by hateful speech in this way?

[GGGG]

Well then he should work at being a better football player. He is not a very good QB.  All 3 QBs on my team's roster (Browns) are better than Kaep.  Wouldn't have been true last year, I actually wanted them to pick him up, but this year he would have no spot.

Bullsh*t.  Colin Kaepernick was way better than Brett Hundley.  You might be the last person on earth who thinks that he is unemployed simply due to his football abilities.

[GGGG]

A company that adopts a polarizing ad campaign, as has Nike, clearly is making too much money.

No.  They clearly know their customer base though.  (And it's not a dentist in Milwaukee who buys a pair of sneakers when he earns enough Kohl's Cash to make it worthwhile.)

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Well then he should work at being a better football player. He is not a very good QB.  All 3 QBs on my team's roster (Browns) are better than Kaep.  Wouldn't have been true last year, I actually wanted them to pick him up, but this year he would have no spot.

Kaepernick is a much better QB than many QBs who are currently on active rosters. However, he is not a good enough QB in the eyes of the owners to justify the media circus that comes with him. It is a true statement that if he was better, he would be on an NFL team right now. It is also a true statement that his political beliefs are keeping him from being on an NFL team at his current skill level.