Football Ratings Are Down

[GGGG]

Btw if someone didn't want to stand for the anthem because they didn't want to support a country where gay marriage is a right, I'd be cool with that too.

[tower912]

So, Jesse, why aren't you playing this up as a money-making opportunity?   Ratings down, revenues down, stocks down, if this was a normal issue you would be playing up the doom angle and gloating.    The fact that you aren't, and are instead focusing on the virtues of non-violent protests regarding racial issues.... well, it fits with other aspects of your personality you have revealed here.   

If an MU ballplayer took a knee during the anthem, ostensibly to protest racial injustice in America,  he would be hearkening back to the glory days under Al and he would, perhaps accidentally, perhaps intentionally, be embracing some the Jesuit ideal of standing up for the oppressed.

[brewcity77]

And if MU decided to use long time season ticket holder and big MU fan Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clarke as part of a "blue lives matter" demonstration which caused some of the players to boycott the game, you also think the administration should nothing to stop any of it?

What I'm getting at is you're in favor of it because it fits your political bias but if it goes against your political bias, you would be against it.

I am not a fan of most of what I've heard from the "Blue Lives Matter" movement because I think it's a disingenuous attempt to strike down Black Lives Matter. In addition, I think most people who get bent out of shape because of BLM have absolutely NO IDEA what BLM is all about, what their goals are, or why they even exist.

That's not to say police lives don't matter, they absolutely do, but when someone responds to BLM protestors with the inane "Blue Lives Matter" comment, they are only serving to fuel a race war that indicates we should indeed pit black lives against police lives. That is counterproductive and only makes the situation worse.

It's like the silly "All Lives Matter" crowd that refuses to utter the words "Black Lives Matter". If all lives do indeed matter, doesn't that mean that black lives also matter and you should be able to affirm that statement?

I disagree with BLM because I feel many of their goals are unreachable and created with a lack of understanding of the circumstances surrounding the incidents they protest. However, working in the heart of 53206 and Sherman Park, I feel it is important for me to have a basic understanding of what BLM is about and what their advocates actually want.

Before you get mad at Kaepernick or Black Lives Matter, at least take the time to research what they want so you know what you're mad at. Anything less is irrational racism.

[tower912]

I would go out and protest for 'Blue lives and their pensions matter.'

[Tugg Speedman]

Btw if someone didn't want to stand for the anthem because they didn't want to support a country where gay marriage is a right, I'd be cool with that too.

This sounds like you are all for anything that fits your political beliefs.

You ok if the Pro-life students show disturbing pictures of abortion as you walk into the BC?  What if BLM showed equally disturbing pictures of those gunned down by police?  How about the Catholic MU students protesting for a stadium-wide prayer before the game?  What about the Westboro Baptist Church protesting (google them, they were on campus last year)?

I understand that anything violent or destructive is out of bounds.  But what protest is "too far" for you?  Is it all political ideologue?

[GGGG]

Kneeling during the national anthem is a quiet protest.  Not really in the face like you are describing.

IMO those "offended" by it are too easily offended. 

[Tugg Speedman]

So, Jesse, why aren't you playing this up as a money-making opportunity?   Ratings down, revenues down, stocks down, if this was a normal issue you would be playing up the doom angle and gloating.    The fact that you aren't, and are instead focusing on the virtues of non-violent protests regarding racial issues.... well, it fits with other aspects of your personality you have revealed here.   

If an MU ballplayer took a knee during the anthem, ostensibly to protest racial injustice in America,  he would be hearkening back to the glory days under Al and he would, perhaps accidentally, perhaps intentionally, be embracing some the Jesuit ideal of standing up for the oppressed.

Tower, nice try at the insults.  Plenty of other ways to steal from the 99% to stay firmly in the 1% for me.

I been arguing two things

1) What do the owners of a business (i.e., the NFL) do when personal protests by their employees threaten the value of their business?  Their has been plenty of linked stories and a graphic that show plenty of customers of the the NFL are either considering not using the product (watching on TV) or about to.  That would worry any owner of the business.

2) when Sultan is shown to be wrong and the protesters don't get bored and stop, but instead it grows and grows, what then?  How do you stop it if the customers boycott the product (plummeting TV ratings).  What peaceful non-violent protest goes too far?  Is it just about your personal views and those protest that don't fit it should be shut down?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

This sounds like you are all for anything that fits your political beliefs.

I'm gonna go ahead and guess that Sultan is actually pro-gay marriage, so he was saying that he would support something outside of his political beliefs. Could be wrong though.

You ok if the Pro-life students show disturbing pictures of abortion as you walk into the BC?  What if BLM showed equally disturbing pictures of those gunned down by police?  How about the Catholic MU students protesting for a stadium-wide prayer before the game?  What about the Westboro Baptist Church protesting (google them, they were on campus last year)?

I understand that anything violent or destructive is out of bounds.  But what protest is "too far" for you?  Is it all political ideologue?

Your struggling again with comparisons. The protests you are describing are a lot more disruptive than a person taking a knee during the national anthem (something that LITERALLY affects nobody except the person doing the kneeling). But I understand what you are trying to get at. To answer your question, yes, I would be ok with all of those groups doing some form of non-invasive protest at a Marquette basketball game, with the exception of the Westboro Baptist Church. Their messages are not political, they are meant to inspire hate and violence against a particular group. They are on level with the KKK and neo-nazis. In public forums, I fully support their right to free speech. But in a private forum like the Bradley Center, I would expect that the BC exercise their right to limit such hateful messages. If they wanted to protest outside on the street corner, I would hate that they are there, but I would defend their right to be present.

[GGGG]

I'm gonna go ahead and guess that Sultan is actually pro-gay marriage, so he was saying that he would support something outside of his political beliefs. Could be wrong though

That was my point. Pro gay marriage but it wouldn't offend me in least if someone decided to protest the anthem because they are anti gay marriage.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

1) What do the owners of a business (i.e., the NFL) do when personal protests by their employees threaten the value of their business?  Their has been plenty of linked stories and a graphic that show plenty of customers of the the NFL are either considering not using the product (watching on TV) or about to.  That would worry any owner of the business.

They can either support the protest, shut down the protest, or do nothing. The best strategy varies by case. In this particular case the best option for the NFL would be to do nothing. Yes they might take a hit in ratings for awhile, but it will be minuscule to the hit they might take if they were to support the protest. And they don't risk their player's revolting and boycotting the NFL which would mean there would be zero ratings.

Their second best option would be to support the protest. They could try to spin it as "doing something bigger than football". They would likely antagonize a large chunk of their fanbase, but they would gain support from the part of the fanbase that supports the protests. They also get to support their players and improve that relationship. Eventually, the hype of the protest would die down and the boycotters will start to miss football and all would be right with the world.

Their absolute worst option would be to try and squash the protests. All the protesters would immediately become martyrs to the cause. It would antagonize an already strenuous relationship between the NFL and the players. It would also create hostility between  the NFL and individual franchises who might not be pleased with their players getting suspended. There would real threat of players boycotting the NFL which would kill TV ratings. They would appease one part of the fanbase but agitate the other side of the fan base. And the part of the fan base that they appeased would still be unhappy because the media would continue to cover the protests and they'd still have to hear about ideas they are uncomfortable with during their precious football games. Not to mention that the NFL would be labeled by many as racist and fascist. The NFL would also get criticized about punishing peaceful protesters harsher than they punish wifebeaters. Its a lose-lose-lose situation.

2) when Sultan is shown to be wrong and the protesters don't get bored and stop, but instead it grows and grows, what then?  How do you stop it if the customers boycott the product (plummeting TV ratings).  What peaceful non-violent protest goes too far?  Is it just about your personal views and those protest that don't fit it should be shut down?

You are the only one arguing about personal views that don't fit. It is a peaceful, non-violent protest that isn't completely disruptive, and its for a cause that doesn't inspire hate or violence towards a particular group (i.e. no KKK members), then the protest should be allowed. It doesn't go too far. The issue isn't with the kneelers, its with the grown men and women throwing hissyfits because someone decided to kneel.

[Tugg Speedman]

You are the only one arguing about personal views that don't fit. It is a peaceful, non-violent protest that isn't completely disruptive, and its for a cause that doesn't inspire hate or violence towards a particular group (i.e. no KKK members), then the protest should be allowed. It doesn't go too far. The issue isn't with the kneelers, its with the grown men and women throwing hissyfits because someone decided to kneel.

This is where you wrong.  Again see the graphic and stories above.  These protests are very unpopular.  People are saying it affects their viewing and the ratings are down. 

Their is far more evidence this is hurting the NFL then any unsupported assertion around here that it is not.  So, my view represents 44% of the public (above), hardly insignificant.

But I will agree with you that it is too late to stop this.  What the NFL will do is get it in the next CBA (collective bargaining agreement) banning ANY and ALL protests.   But until then, let's see how much this hurts the product.

Kaepernick better getting something because this is the last one you will see of any kind.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

This is where you wrong.  Again see the graphic and stories above.  These protests are very unpopular.  People are saying it affects their viewing and the ratings are down. 

Their is far more evidence this is hurting the NFL then any unsupported assertion around here that it is not.  So, my view represents 44% of the public (above), hardly insignificant.

When did I or anyone else ever since this wasn't hurting the NFL? The fault however lies with the people throwing a b*tch fit, not the people engaging in a peaceful protest. There is nothing about kneeling during the national anthem that should cause football to be any less enjoyable. It doesn't affect anyone else in the slightest. The problem is that people are intolerant of opinions differing from their own.

[Tugg Speedman]

When did I or anyone else ever since this wasn't hurting the NFL? The fault however lies with the people throwing a b*tch fit, not the people engaging in a peaceful protest. There is nothing about kneeling during the national anthem that should cause football to be any less enjoyable. It doesn't affect anyone else in the slightest. The problem is that people are intolerant of opinions differing from their own.

You didn't, Sultan incorrectly insists it is not hurting the NFL.

And regarding intolerance, why don't you rethink this because about half the country thinks it disrespects the country.  Intolerance is anyone that does not see that.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You didn't, Sultan incorrectly insists it is not hurting the NFL.

And regarding intolerance, why don't you rethink this because about half the country thinks it disrespects the country.  Intolerance is anyone that does not see that.

I understand that. And no one is telling those people that they can't be offended. No one is trying to censor them. You and others however are demanding that Kaepernick et. al be silenced.

[mu03eng]

I think we've tapped the protest debate about as much as we can as I don't think anyone's changing anyone's mind at this point.

So back a little bit to the OT, NFL ratings are down, but I think it would be instructive to see how they compare to college football and professional sports in general ratings. If the NFL is down in viewership less than college football and less then general sports as well as tv viewership generally then it's likely just the result of trends outside of football itself. If it is down more than college football and other sports, I would think that would indicate there are drivers specific to NFL that should be cause for concern for the league.

To lazy to do the research so I'm hoping it's already done and one of you guys can google it for me.

[Tugg Speedman]

I understand that. And no one is telling those people that they can't be offended. No one is trying to censor them. You and others however are demanding that Kaepernick et. al be silenced.

It is not censoring as the NFL is not the Government.  Private groups can do whatever they want as the first amendment does do not apply to them.  It only applies to the Government.

All kind of businesses do this.  Your business does this.  No business would stand for an employee make a social justice protest that upsets its customers.  The NFL is not different.

I'm saying that the NFL needs to protect the value of the shield.  Taking a knee is hurting the value of the shield.  Kaepernick might be the only negative value player in the league.  He is costing the league more than the value is gives them as a back-up QB. 

[Tugg Speedman]

I think we've tapped the protest debate about as much as we can as I don't think anyone's changing anyone's mind at this point.

So back a little bit to the OT, NFL ratings are down, but I think it would be instructive to see how they compare to college football and professional sports in general ratings. If the NFL is down in viewership less than college football and less then general sports as well as tv viewership generally then it's likely just the result of trends outside of football itself. If it is down more than college football and other sports, I would think that would indicate there are drivers specific to NFL that should be cause for concern for the league.

To lazy to do the research so I'm hoping it's already done and one of you guys can google it for me.

College football is down more.  But it started declining a few years ago.  On an earlier page their is a link and chart showing that the average college football game is approaching four hours.  It says that is just too long and turning people off.

The NFL decline in ratings this year is sharp and started more or less this year.  So it is something specific to the last few months that is causing the surprising and unexplained drop in ratings.  Then we have polls and stories that say NFL fans to do not like the quiet protests of taking a knee.  Some think it is disrespectful to the country.  Others view the NFL as an escape and do not want this stuff, yet again, thrown in their face on a Sunday afternoon.

So there are two arguments here.  Does Kapernickj have the right?  Yes, of course, that is not the issue.  But does he have the right to use his workplace?  No, he does not.  Should his employer do something since he is hurting the value of their business?  Yes they should.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

So there are two arguments here.  Does Kapernickj have the right?  Yes, of course, that is not the issue.  But does he have the right to use his workplace?  No, he does not.  Should his employer do something since he is hurting the value of their business?  Yes they should.

Really going down this path of thinking (damage or benefit to business) the real question is what is the NFLs best course of action to maximize value.  When your product (players) depends on good labor relations, it is not so easy to just say fans are upset so ban.

In my opinion that is why it may make sense to treat this how they currently are.  I seem to remember this happened with a BBall player in the 90's as well -- and while it sparked a national debate then too, they came to some sort of medium that did not 'force' the player to stand at attention against his beliefs. 

So tricky for the NFL, but I dont believe as simple as saying a ST ratings issue (your conclusion) means ban the protest.

[Pakuni]

I think we've tapped the protest debate about as much as we can as I don't think anyone's changing anyone's mind at this point.

So back a little bit to the OT, NFL ratings are down, but I think it would be instructive to see how they compare to college football and professional sports in general ratings. If the NFL is down in viewership less than college football and less then general sports as well as tv viewership generally then it's likely just the result of trends outside of football itself. If it is down more than college football and other sports, I would think that would indicate there are drivers specific to NFL that should be cause for concern for the league.

To lazy to do the research so I'm hoping it's already done and one of you guys can google it for me.

As posted earlier in this thread, ratings for all major sporting and non-sporting television programming and events are down this year, which indicates that the "Blame Kaepernick" argument is nonsense. What's happening to the NFL is no different - and in some cases less severe - than what's happening everywhere. It's reflective of overall viewership trends. In fact, overall TV viewership over the past five years down significantly among everyone but the 50-year-old and up crowd.

Here's what I wrote earlier:

Last night's Emmys ratings were an all-time low, and 5 percent lower than last year's show ... which had been the previous all-time low.
Olympics ratings were way down. College football ratings are down. Final Four ratings fell 30 percent. Oscars ratings were at an 8-year low. Grammy ratings hit a 6-year low.

I didn't note then, but I will now, that ratings for this year's baseball all-star game were down 18 percent this year.

[mu03eng]

College football is down more.  But it started declining a few years ago.  On an earlier page their is a link and chart showing that the average college football game is approaching four hours.  It says that is just too long and turning people off.

The NFL decline in ratings this year is sharp and started more or less this year.  So it is something specific to the last few months that is causing the surprising and unexplained drop in ratings.  Then we have polls and stories that say NFL fans to do not like the quiet protests of taking a knee.  Some think it is disrespectful to the country.  Others view the NFL as an escape and do not want this stuff, yet again, thrown in their face on a Sunday afternoon.

So there are two arguments here.  Does Kapernickj have the right?  Yes, of course, that is not the issue.  But does he have the right to use his workplace?  No, he does not.  Should his employer do something since he is hurting the value of their business?  Yes they should.

You're confusing noise for signal in the ratings evaluation.

And you are leaving out the impact if the NFL "does something". Let's assume what you've noted before is true and half of NFL fans are pissed about the Kaepernick situation. Further let's assume the NFL does "something" about it (as well as every other player that is since protesting) wouldn't that presume to piss off the 50% of the fan base that was either ok with or supportive of the protests?

Bottom line, the NFL is boxed in on the protest stuff. I think the NFL is generally a very stupid organization, but I think they've navigated the anthem protest situation just right. I'm sure I've done nothing to convince you otherwise though.

[Tugg Speedman]

As posted earlier in this thread, ratings for all major sporting and non-sporting television programming and events are down this year, which indicates that the "Blame Kaepernick" argument is nonsense. What's happening to the NFL is no different - and in some cases less severe - than what's happening everywhere. It's reflective of overall viewership trends. In fact, overall TV viewership over the past five years down significantly among everyone but the 50-year-old and up crowd.

Here's what I wrote earlier:

Last night's Emmys ratings were an all-time low, and 5 percent lower than last year's show ... which had been the previous all-time low.
Olympics ratings were way down. College football ratings are down. Final Four ratings fell 30 percent. Oscars ratings were at an 8-year low. Grammy ratings hit a 6-year low.

I didn't note then, but I will now, that ratings for this year's baseball all-star game were down 18 percent this year.

You're making the same argument that Sultan is making.  You want to believe that Kaepernick is not hurting ratings as it fits your world view.  The problem is their are polls, stories and discussion that suggest it is hurting.

And on the other side, cannot point to any evidence that this protest is bringing in new viewers to the NFL?

Business people cannot pretend a problem does not exist, posters can.  Their customers are upset, that has been established.  This must act to protect their business.

[Tugg Speedman]

You're confusing noise for signal in the ratings evaluation.

And you are leaving out the impact if the NFL "does something". Let's assume what you've noted before is true and half of NFL fans are pissed about the Kaepernick situation. Further let's assume the NFL does "something" about it (as well as every other player that is since protesting) wouldn't that presume to piss off the 50% of the fan base that was either ok with or supportive of the protests?

Bottom line, the NFL is boxed in on the protest stuff. I think the NFL is generally a very stupid organization, but I think they've navigated the anthem protest situation just right. I'm sure I've done nothing to convince you otherwise though.

I agree with this.  The NFL was slow to respond and now they are trapped.  Their best course of action is to hope Sultan is right and Kaepernick gets bored of this and stops, and it goes away out of a lack of interest.  Then, as I suggested before, they will ban this type of protest forever as part of the next CBA.

But if it does not, and it grows and fans get more and more upset, then they have a real problem.  Then they might be forced to do something they don't want to do, ban it in the middle.

Either that or their broadcast partners, who are now extremely worried they overpaid for broadcasting rights, quietly stop covering it.  So they don't even show the Anthem on TV altogether or in the stadium on the jumbotron so no one sees it anymore.  Similar to the way the broadcast partners do their best to ignore the group prayer between both teams at the end of the game (as that does not fit their worldview.)

[Pakuni]

You're making the same argument that Sultan is making.  You want to believe that Kaepernick is not hurting ratings as it fits your world view.  The problem is their are polls, stories and discussion that suggest it is hurting.

There are anecdotes and screeds from right-wing websites. That's hardly evidence.
Anecdote is not singular for data.

And on the other side, cannot point to any evidence that this protest is bringing in new viewers to the NFL?

That's irrelevant, and a claim no one is making.

Business people cannot pretend a problem does not exist, posters can.  Their customers are upset, that has been established.  This must act to protect their business.

Again, you've failed to present any empirical data that the protests have led to a notable decline in ratings.
Suggesting they should do something because "people are upset" is nonsense. People get upset for all sorts of stupid reasons.
Ultimately, your argument comes down to believing that TV ratings are in decline across the board because of 'X,' except for the NFL, where TV ratings are in decline because of 'Y.'
That makes sense how?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

It is not censoring as the NFL is not the Government.  Private groups can do whatever they want as the first amendment does do not apply to them.  It only applies to the Government.

All kind of businesses do this.  Your business does this.  No business would stand for an employee make a social justice protest that upsets its customers.  The NFL is not different.

I'm saying that the NFL needs to protect the value of the shield.  Taking a knee is hurting the value of the shield.  Kaepernick might be the only negative value player in the league.  He is costing the league more than the value is gives them as a back-up QB.

Just because it's not a violation of the first amendment doesn't mean it's not censorship.

And I know you are saying this is about protecting the NFLs value, but I'll admit, I'm skeptical. If ratings were still up I think you would still be demanding that kaepernick be stopped. And if ratings were down but there was no protest. I don't think you'd be on here demanding that the NFL protect its shield and get ratings back up. The reasons being down is merely an excuse to attack the protesters.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I agree with this.  The NFL was slow to respond and now they are trapped.  Their best course of action is to hope Sultan is right and Kaepernick gets bored of this and stops, and it goes away out of a lack of interest.  Then, as I suggested before, they will ban this type of protest forever as part of the next CBA.

Kaepernick will likely never get bored. The media and the crowd however will.

When do you think the NFL should have responded? Just fired Kaepernick the moment he kneeled? That would still have caused a firestorm. I'm not sure what you actually expected them to do.

The players would never agree to that now. Unless it's in exchange for something else really big. And even if it was part of the CBA, players will ignore it and if the NFL tries to stop it, they will still look bad.